It’s Not Over Yet

Summary

Summary of "It’s Not Over Yet" Episode of Verdict with Ted Cruz

Podcast Information:

• Title: The 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson
• Host/Author: Premiere Networks
• Episode: It’s Not Over Yet
• Release Date: February 1, 2020

Note: The following summary is based on the provided transcript from the episode titled "It’s Not Over Yet" featuring Senators Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz discussing the impeachment trial.

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Introduction

In the episode titled "It’s Not Over Yet," Senators Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz engage in an in-depth discussion about the ongoing impeachment trial. Hosted by Michael Knowles, the conversation delves into the unexpected developments that have potentially accelerated the conclusion of the trial, the strategic decisions made by the senators, and the broader implications for American politics.

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Unexpected Conclusion of the Impeachment Trial

Senator Lindsey Graham opens the discussion by expressing surprise at the rapid turn of events in the impeachment trial:

"The last time that we sat down, I was told this impeachment was gonna drag on for weeks... I go to sleep, I wake up today, and the senators are voting no more witnesses. This thing could have over next week." (00:16)

Senator Ted Cruz adds that the absence of witnesses could shorten the trial significantly:

"If the vote had gone differently today, this trial could have gone on for months." (00:50)

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Strategic Decisions: No More Witnesses

The senators discuss the pivotal decision to halt the calling of witnesses, which was a significant deviation from expectations.

Senator Ted Cruz explains the Democratic strategy to extend the trial through a "fishing expedition" for evidence:

"We KNEW we had 47 Democrats that wanted more witnesses. Why? Because they hadn't proven the case." (01:02)

Senator Lindsey Graham emphasizes the argument against calling additional witnesses, labeling the impeachment process as a sham:

"The bottom line is the whole thing was a sham. And we were trying to convince Lisa and everybody else, don't legitimize this." (03:06)

Notable moments include the senators’ negotiation efforts to secure votes from key Republicans like Lamar Alexander and Lisa Murkowski, ultimately leading to the cessation of witness testimonies.

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Key Moments Influencing Decision-Making

A critical moment highlighted by Senator Cruz involves a strategic question posed to White House lawyers, challenging the necessity of a witness if a quid pro quo is assumed:

"The most important question is... if you assume, for sake of argument, that John Bolton testifies... is that an impeachable offense or not?" (04:19)

Senator Graham concurs, illustrating how this line of questioning swayed the votes of crucial senators:

"We don't want to be throwing the court in this political swamp. If you put the court in the crosshairs of history, you begin to corrupt the court." (08:43)

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Implications for the Supreme Court and Executive Privilege

The discussion extends to the potential ramifications for the Supreme Court and the concept of executive privilege:

Senator Cruz warns against politicizing the Supreme Court:

"If the Democrats tarnish the Supreme Court too, where they lose faith in every institution of government, that's a real problem." (15:05)

Senator Graham underscores the historical significance of this impeachment being "purely partisan" and its impact on judicial impartiality:

"This is a constitutional death penalty for a politician. You should use it sparingly... Clinton had bipartisan impeachment." (22:51)

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Humorous and Human Moments During the Trial

Amidst the gravity of the discussion, the senators share lighter moments from the trial proceedings:

Senator Cruz recounts a humorous incident involving Senator Amy Klobuchar:

"She sends the wrong card down. So the chief doesn't read it... she realizes she screwed up and has to run down and write her name on the card." (23:23)

Senator Graham adds levity by joking about courtroom interactions:

"John Roberts, he had his reading glasses on the tip of his nose... he had a slight smile." (25:00)

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Future Outlook and Political Ramifications

Looking ahead, the senators discuss the potential fallout and future political strategies:

Senator Cruz reflects on past impeachments and their effects on political careers:

"Bill Clinton helped keep Barack Obama from getting impeached... Republicans took that message. Impeachment wasn't the right tool." (20:53)

Senator Graham expresses concern over maintaining impartiality and adhering to constitutional principles:

"You got to have a country where the rules matter for everybody, not just President Trump." (29:22)

The conversation concludes with speculation about upcoming political maneuvers and the enduring impact of the impeachment process on American governance.

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Notable Quotes

• Senator Lindsey Graham:
  "The bottom line is the whole thing was a sham." (03:06)

• Senator Ted Cruz:
  "If you call witnesses, you're not just going to call John Bolton. It becomes a nightmare for the country." (19:15)

• Senator Lindsey Graham:
  "This is a constitutional death penalty for a politician. You should use it sparingly." (22:59)

• Senator Ted Cruz:
  "Elizabeth Warren helped defeat the impeachment of the President of the United States." (15:42)

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Conclusion

The episode "It’s Not Over Yet" provides a comprehensive look into the strategic decisions behind the cessation of witness testimonies in the impeachment trial. Senators Graham and Cruz articulate their concerns over the partisan nature of the proceedings and the potential long-term implications for American political institutions. Through candid discussions and insightful analysis, the episode offers listeners a deeper understanding of the complexities surrounding the impeachment process and its broader impact on governance and public trust.

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Timestamps Reference:

• 00:00 – Begin Transcript
• 00:16 – Senator Graham expresses surprise at rapid trial progress
• 00:50 – Senator Cruz discusses potential trial extension
• 01:02 – Democrats' strategy to call more witnesses
• 03:06 – Senator Graham labels the impeachment process a sham
• 04:19 – Strategic question regarding quid pro quo
• 08:43 – Impact on Supreme Court and executive privilege
• 15:05 – Senator Cruz warns against politicizing the Supreme Court
• 22:51 – Senator Graham on historical significance of impeachment
• 23:23 – Humorous trial moments
• 25:00 – Senator Graham on Chief Justice Roberts
• 20:53 – Reflection on past impeachments
• 29:22 – Maintaining impartiality and constitutional principles

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This summary encapsulates the critical discussions and insights shared by Senators Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz during the "It’s Not Over Yet" episode of Verdict with Ted Cruz. It provides a structured overview for listeners seeking to understand the nuances of the impeachment trial without accessing the full transcript.

Transcript

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Hello, I'm Senator Lindsey Graham. Welcome to Verdict with Ted Cruz, the number one podcast in the entire country. What is a podcast?

[Michael Knowles]

Welcome back to Verdict with Ted Cruz. I'm Michael Knowles. I'm joined by not one, but two US Senators to help us break down the most shocking day of the entire impeachment trial. Senator Graham, thank you so much for being here. Glad to be here, gentlemen. The last time that we sat down, I was told this impeachment was gonna drag on for weeks. We were gonna get witnesses, we were gonna get Bolton, we were gonna get Hunter Biden. This was gonna get long and ugly. I go to sleep, I wake up today, and the senators are voting no more witnesses. This thing could be over next week. Senator Cruz, what happened?

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Well, today was a big day, and let me say, Lindsey, thank you. Welcome. Thank you. I appreciate your coming. This is late at night. We spent all day, all day in.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

The city spending a lot of money on production. Sorry.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Well, this was. You're right. Yesterday. If the vote had gone differently today, this trial could have gone on for months. We could have seen it drag on and on and on, and it was a big deal. It was up in the air. And today was the most important vote we've had in the entire trial. It really came down to. We KNEW we had 47 Democrats that wanted more witnesses. Why? Because they hadn't proven the case. They're losing. And so the only hope they have is extended go on a fishing expedition and see if they can find something. The big open question was, were four Republicans going to join them? We knew that two Republicans were. They'd announced it already. Mitt Romney and Susan Collins were voting with them. There were two other senators who were in play. Lamar Alexander, Lisa Murkowski. And it was close. Last night, Lamar announced that he was gonna come out and say enough is enough. And we just found. Got a final decision from Lisa today, just a few minutes before she voted.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Absolutely.

[Michael Knowles]

So I saw the update on my phone when Senator Murkowski finally decided she was gonna vote. No more witnesses.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

How does that work?

[Michael Knowles]

Well, that's what I was gonna ask you because.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Michael, have you ever seen his phone?

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Hang in there. That's worth it. Worth the wait is.

[Michael Knowles]

Oh, my.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

You don't get updates on this.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

It is a flip flow.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

The Russians can't get in this. You'll all have one in a five year.

[Michael Knowles]

Senator Graham, you are clearly a fiscal conservative if you were using that kind of cell phone. What happened with Senator Murkowski? I know that you two gentlemen were yelling and dealing a little bit on the Senate floor.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

So let's. Number one, Ted was awesome. We had a little team trying to convince people. Can you say shit show on a podcast?

[Michael Knowles]

I think you just did.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

All right, so what would happen if you call witnesses being a shit show? Yeah, you're just not going to call John Bolton. If you're going to call a witness, we're going to call all the witnesses. Would, you know, want to know a little bit about the Bidens? You know, I like Joe Biden, but give me a break. If Mike Pence's son was making $3 million a year from the most corrupt gas company in the Ukraine, don't you think you might hear about it?

[Michael Knowles]

Right.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

You, you only going to hear about the Bidens on his podcast. So the bottom line here is Ted made a very eloquent argument that it throws the courts into chaos. It'd be the first impeachment in history if you have executive privilege. We be decided by the United States Senate that if you call one witness, you're going to call a bunch of witnesses. The President didn't get to call one witness in the House, so you open up Pandora's box. And number two, the whole idea of legitimizing an impeachment in the house that took 78 days. You can't get a parking ticket in 78 days if you contest it. Not one witness allowed to be called by the President. No cross examination. The bottom line is the whole thing was a sham. And we were trying to convince Lisa and everybody else, don't legitimize this. Don't do their work for them. They're accusing you of being unfair because you did not call a witness they chose not to call.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Why?

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Why didn't they call John Bolton? Because it would be inconvenient. They couldn't impeach the President by Christmas. That's not a good reason to ignore the courts.

[Michael Knowles]

Do you think that it was the public arguments, what we all saw on tv, that moved Senator Murkowski, or was it more private conversations?

[Senator Ted Cruz]

So I think the pivotal moment happened day before yesterday. Day before yesterday, Adam Schiff made a mistake. He was standing up, arguing, and he said, he said, listen, the White House defense team have made John Bolton relevant because they have contradicted what he said. And then he threw a little aside. He said, if they'd have stipulated to it, then they'd have an argument. And it was interesting. I heard that Jay Sekulow's eyes got real wide when he said that. And I got up and Went back to the cloakroom. Lindsey went back to the cloak.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Well, I opened my eyes at that point, so.

[Michael Knowles]

So for those of us who are not US Senators, why is that the big light bulb moment?

[Senator Ted Cruz]

So, well, I'll tell you. So I immediately in the cloakroom, got my phone, texted my team, and said, give me the transcript of exactly what Schiff just said. And I went to Lindsey, and we began talking, saying, look, we need to get Lamar, we need to get Lisa. This idea of if you stipulate to a quid pro quo, if you agree, even if there is a quid pro quo, we win, that might get their vote, that might give them a ground to be comfortable. So we got the script. Lindsey and I together in the cloakroom. We talked with Lamar. We showed him exactly what he said. We said, what do you think about this? We talked with Lisa. He said, hey, what do you think about this? They were open to the idea. They weren't convinced, but they were thinking about it. They were listening. We kept talking. The next day in the question period, I think the most important question is a question Lindsey wrote that I helped him write, and it was a question that was to the White House team that essentially said, if you assume, for sake of argument, that John Bolton testifies and everything he says is right, that we just assume everything's right, that there's a quid pro quo, is that an impeachable offense or not? And the White House lawyers, that they didn't want to go down this road, they had to be dragged kicking and screaming to this point. And I'll tell you, there was some kicking and screaming that Lindsey and I were both engaged with. But they got up and they gave the answer, the most important answer, where they said, look, even if he testified, even if he says it's a quid pro quo, it doesn't change that it's an impeachable offense, which means his testimony isn't necessary. And they walk through, as we've been talking about on this podcast, that a president can always investigate corruption, and if that's right, that a president can always investigate corruption, there was more than enough evidence of corruption. And I think that played that exchange where the White House lawyers made that argument in response to the question we teed up, I think was pivotal to getting both Lisa and Lamar, especially Lisa, to yes, which we need.

[Michael Knowles]

So what you're saying is the White House team was pushing back. They didn't necessarily want to go down this road of if there was a quid pro quo, then X, Y, and Z.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Right.

[Michael Knowles]

However, if you address that argument, and it still doesn't matter if there was a quid pro quo, then there is no basis whatsoever for the impeachment.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Well, there's no basis to call John Bolton. So what brought all this up? You know, Ted was very. I'm a practical guy. Lisa Murkowski is an independent from Alaska. We're Republicans from Texas and South Carolina. A little different politics.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

And here's, here's the problem. They could have called John Bolton and others, but they chose not to because they wanted to impeach the president before Christmas. The president would declare it executive privilege had gone to court like Nixon and Clinton did, but that got in the way of this railroad right job. But the problem is there's a blurb in the New York Times, as they always do, saying John Bolton has direct evidence that the President asked him to condition the aide on investigating the Bidens looking at interference by the Ukraine. That was different. The defense team of the President said there is no direct evidence. And they're right. There was no direct evidence in the record that the House chose to establish. And from just a common sense point of view, it raises a question. Lamar is an institutionalist. He wanted to make sure that the Senate was a body that was open minded, fair. And Lisa had to go back home and explain, well, why didn't you call any witnesses? And here's the point. If we call John Bolton now, won't the president raise executive privilege? Because if he doesn't, he forfeits that for future presidents. Do we as senators destroy their privilege? It'd be the first impeachment in history where there was no court access. We would have have to decide executive privilege. And I think that made Lamar feel uncomfortable.

[Michael Knowles]

So. So walk me through that just a little bit more because this is now not an argument.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

So this is really important right here. So this is about what happens if we try to capture this testimony. The President was denied the chance to go to court in the House. They shut him out. What if we say now we want to call him for a new reason and if he asked to go to court? The logic is the court of impeachment decides, not Article 3 courts. It may be the first time in history a president was impeached without ever being able to avail the courts.

[Michael Knowles]

Right.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

So what's the answer to this? Assuming for a moment argue Endo podcast people.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Don't look up. Go look up.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Argue.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Okay, you showed off your Latin in the early episode. So arguendo I am like is a lawyer word. And you put it in race all the time, where you say a story. Assume arguenda, which is. I'm not admitting it. Yeah, but assume for case of argument. This is true. We still win. And so you do that in briefs all the time.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

That's right. In South Carolina. What if he said it is assuming. Argue Endo. Would it matter? So I assume for a moment for argue and for the sake of argument that if John Bolton did, if he was told by the president, I want to suspend aid until I find more about what the Bidens did, he had every reason in the world. Because if you're in charge, Ted, if I put you in charge of fixing corruption in the Ukraine and I find out that your son, who, you know.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

I'm told that job pays a million bucks a year.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay, so it's pretty.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Don't you think?

[Michael Knowles]

It's better than podcasting, don't you think?

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

When Joe Biden gets in front of the Ukrainian parliament, says, we got to end corruption in the Ukraine, particularly the intersect energy sector, and everybody said, well, why is your son on the border of Bruce by making a million dollars? It kind of undercuts your argument. It destroyed our ability, quite frankly, to be cred agents of change. And that's a public policy. And you know what Lamar said? That's right. There's a reason to look at that. And there was all kind of evidence that the Ukraine didn't like Trump and like Clinton, at least parts of it. So the president had a legitimate public purpose. And that gets back to Dershowitz. He says, if there's a mixed motive, the reason is impeachment sucks so much. We got to get into Trump's brain and find out how much of it was personal and how much it was public. And what Ted and I said, you know, they said, there's not a scintilla of evidence that the Bidens did anything wrong. I said, no, there's not. There's a herd of scintillas. You know, if you find one of these little suckers roaming around, you win. So, like, even I could prove this doesn't pass the smell test. And they started thinking, and I said, assume for a moment that the conversation was most beneficial to the House managers. You wind up right where you are today. There was a legitimate public purpose to suspend the aid, and this is not an impeachable offense. Do you think the founders really meant to throw the president out of office, could never run again because for 40 days he suspended aid to the Ukraine. They wind up getting the money, and they didn't investigate anybody.

[Michael Knowles]

But this is. This is a real trick, a real political trick here, because you've got Senator Alexander, who you say cares about the institution. He's a wonderful man. The credibility.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Absolutely.

[Michael Knowles]

And you've got Senator Murkowski, who's independent. She's got to go back home to this.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

They had real problems.

[Michael Knowles]

So they have separate problems.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

So Ted and I understood, maybe differently than others. And I'll let Ted talk here. You've got to address the problem in front of you from Lisa Murkowski's point of view. If we could show Lisa that if you had the New York Times article in front of you and I tried to get a stipulation the day before, would it really matter? Wouldn't it still fall short of impeachment? Is this really what they meant? To throw a president out that you aid when they got the money, never did investigation, the big picture stuff then I think that turned the thinking that you really didn't need Bolton because it wouldn't change the outcome.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Right. So one of the things that I think was really potent is Lindsey's a trial lawyer, I'm an appellate lawyer. Those are different worlds. Those are different arenas.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

I say shit show, and he says other stuff.

[Michael Knowles]

So that's the difference between a trial lawyer and an appellate lawyer.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Look, look, trial lawyers talk to juries, appellate lawyers talk to judges. Those are different ways of framing things. But he and I teamed up very closely. We probably wrote a dozen questions together, some of which we asked, some of which we gave to our colleagues and they asked, but a lot of it we were aiming over and over and over again. We had a purpose at Lamar and Lisa, trying to move them, but trying to also give them. You know, we talked on this podcast a lot of times about framing the narrative and choosing. Choosing the terrain on which you fight.

[Michael Knowles]

Right.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

If the whole fight. Early on, the White House spent hours and hours saying there's no quid pro quo, there's no quid pro quo. Well, you know what? If that's their argument, the fact that the New York Times says John Bolton says there is a quid pro quo that suddenly makes. If someone is trying to make it even handed, if that's the central dispute, it's really hard to say, well, gosh, shouldn't we bring him in to testify? What was important and it took a couple of days to get us there, is to make clear it doesn't matter if there was a quid pro quo or not. That's not the issue.

[Michael Knowles]

Sorry to interrupt. There were these competing Strategies. There were these two.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Okay, so here's the point. You got to know who you're talking to. Lisa Murkowski is very independent. She's not going to do something because somebody tells her to. It's inconvenient. If you want a witness, that's not going to matter. It may hurt the team if you call a witness. And Lamar loves the institution. He's about to retire. He's going to do what he thinks best. And what we try to do is explain, play it out. They're playing a game here. They set us up. They could have called the witness. They chose not to because it's inconvenient. Now they're asking you to deal out Article 3 courts. Bad. So assume for a moment you had Bolton in front of you. Would it really change the outcome here? Does it make it an impeachable offense for Bolton to say what he's going to say? And the answer is clearly no.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Now, there was another argument that I think moved them quite a bit.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

And it was that what the Democrats were trying to do. If we'd have been a 50, 50.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

This is a big one here.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

The Democrats were trying to go after the U.S. supreme Court because if it.

[Michael Knowles]

Had been 50, 50, and we talked about this on the show last time, it's completely unclear if there is.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

They would have tried to make John Roberts decide. And whatever he did, it would have been viewed through a political lens. And so look, one case that a number of us made is, is we're in a world where people have lost faith in Congress. They've lost faith in the presidency. And if we come through this and let the Democrats tarnish the Supreme Court too, where they lose faith in every institution of government, that's a real problem. And Michael, I think we've got a clip here.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

That'll give an example of the Democrats strategy.

[Michael Knowles]

Question from Senator Warren is for the House managers.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

At a time when large majorities of Americans have lost faith in government, does the fact that the Chief justice is presiding over an impeachment trial in which Republican senators have thus far refused to allow witnesses or evidence contribute to the loss of legitimacy of the Chief justice, the Supreme Court and the Constitution?

[Michael Knowles]

That is an insulting question.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Now, Michael, I'm going to tell you something surprising.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Elizabeth Warren helped defeat the impeachment of the President of the United States.

[Michael Knowles]

How do you mean?

[Senator Ted Cruz]

That little stunt she pulled was a campaign stunt. That was a fundraising stunt that was designed to thrill the left wing activists in the Iowa caucuses. There ain't nothing else going on than that. But I'll tell you what, that stunt helped deliver the votes of Lisa and Lamar. It did, because it made clear this is a political game. And if John Roberts doesn't vote the way Elizabeth Warren wants, she's going to call him a political hack and throw him into politics. And it suddenly raised the price of their voting and making it 50, 50, because you don't want to see the court thrown into that political swamp. Do you agree with that, Lindsey?

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

100%. All you got to do is look at her statement. She said a fair trial in the Senate's impossible because of them.

[Michael Knowles]

This is Lisa Murkowski said.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Yeah. So her statement was that they're going to set up the Chief justice because they hate Trump so much. So the difference between 51 and 50 is enormous. If it's 50 50, then you put the Chief justice in the crosshairs of history, you begin to corrupt the court. As Ted said, they could give a damn on the other side. They just want an outcome here. And I think it really mattered to Lamar and Lisa that Ted explained the historic nature of what the Chief justice would be required to decide. And I think I explained, honest to God, if you believed every word of John Bolton wouldn't matter. The truth is, it would.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

A left wing attack group today put out an attack ad with John Roberts wearing a MAGA hat and that ticked off Republican senators that helped produce the vote we had today.

[Michael Knowles]

So you think it was just an overreach by people like Senator Warren, by these left wing groups? So what I want to know, I mean, this was a truly shocking day. What happens now?

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Well, I just want to fill out with what you said. It wasn't just an overreach by them. They helped. It was two senators who are good people thinking it through, and Ted bringing to the table an expertise that very few people have, quite frankly. And I just tried to say, listen, I try to be fair. I supported the Mueller investigation. I actually co sponsored legislation that would prevent Mueller from being fired without cause.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Yeah. What the heck were you thinking there?

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Well, just to tell Trump, what the hell are you thinking? I understand if you fire this guy, you're dead. And I thought Mueller would be fair, but this whole process has not been fair. So I could say, listen, guys, it's not like I think the President's beyond being looked at. What they did in the House is dangerous to the country. It's a partisan impeachment, no due process, and we need to end it the right way. Do not make it Worse. And what would make it worse is to do what Ted said, put the court in the crosshairs of history in the wrong way. And what would make it worse is to. To let them goad us into calling a witness. That wouldn't matter because they think we're unfair. You've done nothing wrong here. It was the other side who did something wrong.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Well, and as a consequence, John Roberts is not in a position where he has to make any controversial rulings. Where, where they get where he's being set up to be attacked as being political. He simply, He. He presided over a fair trial, and it was the senators who were voted. And look, we're elected to make policy decisions and political decisions and also to apply the constitutional standard. And that's what we did.

[Michael Knowles]

In some way, it feels like we dodged a bullet. If it were a 50. 50.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Oh, you have no idea. No, no, you. You dodged a cannon truck. Yeah, but because really, just play it out. We, we call witnesses, then you're not just going to call John Bolton. You're going to have the whistleblower. It's going to be a nightmare for the country. You have all kinds of issues decided by the Senate should be decided by the courts. And you would set. That, I think, would make impeachment of every president in the future almost a certainty.

[Michael Knowles]

And it seemed actually, in some of the arguments we heard during the trial, that there was a threat there or an acknowledgment that if we continue down this path, we're going to impeach every president from now on.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Well, and that remains a real risk that, that we've opened the door to that.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

So how do you stop that if the House loses? And one of the reasons they lost is because they've gone crazy. Donald Trump's changed the Republican Party, but he's driven the Democratic Party completely nuts. So what would happen if President Trump gets reelected? That's exoneration.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Well, and let me underscore that, because that's a very good point. I actually think Bill Clinton helped keep Barack Obama from getting impeached. How so now, why is that? Republicans impeached. And actually, Lindsey was one of the managers.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Managers don't try this at home, okay?

[Senator Ted Cruz]

And it backfired. It hurt Republicans. It got Bill Clinton reelected. It didn't work. And a lot of Republicans took that message. Hey, wait a second. Being seen being too partisan, too aggressive, using impeachment, that's a problem. And so when it came to Obama, Look, Obama, on the abuse of power theory that we've heard from the House managers. Obama abused his power in many respects, and yet all of us agreed we shouldn't be impeaching Obama. We should beat him at the ballot box, which we tried to do. But impeachment wasn't the right tool. If. If Republicans hadn't gotten burned so bad on the Clinton impeachment, right, there would have been some loud voices to impeach Obama. But as it was, people said, let's not go down that road. So if you want to stop partisan impeachments going forward, the best way. And Lindsey, you're right. I hadn't thought about it and connected it like this. The best way to stop it is. Is for Democrats to get walloped in November, because then the next Democrats will say, okay, wow, this. This impeaching business. And by the way, the Republicans will, too.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Well, you know, we still remember. Okay, Lamar asked a question. What's the partisan difference between Nixon, Clinton, and Trump? A lot. A little. None. A lot of bipartisanship for Nixon. Yeah, that's the kind of thing the founders had in mind. You know, this is a constitutional death penalty for a politician. You should use it sparingly. Clinton had 33 Democrats say, let's look at it. Bipartisan impeachment. And Clinton basically cheated Paula Jones out of her day in court, hid evidence, perjury, you name it. You can't have the most powerful person in the country destroy a private citizen's right to have their day in court. Now here we are with Trump, Bipartisan rejection of the articles of impeachment. And I think that bothered Lamar, the way it was done and the outcome in the House. We don't want to be.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Both of us joined with Lamar on a question on. Exactly.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Lamar really rose to the occasion because.

[Michael Knowles]

What you're saying is there was a bipartisan rejection.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Rejection.

[Michael Knowles]

But in terms of the people who actually voted for impeachment, it was the first time in U.S. history you had a purely partisan impeachment.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Yeah, and I hope it's the last. See, Clinton was in his second term. Nixon resigned. If Trump wins, he'll be the first person impeached in his first term to get reelected. That will exonerate him.

[Michael Knowles]

Now, I want to know, obviously, the impeachment hearings have been so dreary and tedious, and I.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

You gotta be kidding me.

[Michael Knowles]

I know you'll be shocked.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

I admitted, if you're watching this podcast, you're loving this.

[Michael Knowles]

Well, the podcast may be C Span. I don't know.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Although, actually, people listen to this because they can't watch C span for 13 hours, and it makes their eyes and ears bleed.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

But this way, this is somewhere between C SPAN and the trial.

[Michael Knowles]

Was there any moment that was. That had some levity to it, some foibles, some.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

I think the funniest moment was last night. The very last of the question. 16 hours of questions. Amy Klobuchar submits the last question, sends the card down. Number one. She sends the wrong card down.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

So the chief doesn't read it. She realizes she screwed up. She has to run down and write her name on the car. So that starts off. Oh, it's not cracking up at that.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Yeah. And it's not that hard.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

You literally write your name on it. You know, kindergarten.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

We're not tricking you.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Okay.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

I did it three times, and I didn't screw up.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

You know, put your name on the top block letters.

[Michael Knowles]

I think she was thinking about Iowa. Maybe she wasn't paying attention.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Phil, this is a good one. Keep going.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

So her question was, would the House managers give a closing argument? So Adam Schiff stands up. You see him kind of puff out his chest. He starts walking forward. And Jerry Nadler, who's sitting like, four seats behind him, runs behind him, pushes Schiff out of the way and goes to the microphone. And Schiff is literally going, jerry. Jerry, Jerry. And he stands there behind Adler. I mean, glaring. He wanted to punch or strangle him.

[Michael Knowles]

These are the two House Democrat impeachment managers.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

They're the leads. And Nadler just went and gave his closing arguments. And Shift stood there for a good 10 seconds, and then he just sat down and glared at Nadler the whole time. And by the way, Roberts, he had his reading glasses on the tip of his nose. And I know. I've known John Roberts 25 years. You saw a slight smile, which for him is cracking up because they almost had a fist.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

This man has never smiled in his life.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

So he's actually wickedly fun.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

No, I know, John, you're right. He's a brain. That is somebody. Mitch McConnell is funny in his own way. So. So here's the deal. Jerry's wife is sick.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Lindsay's.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Pray for it.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

She's got. She's got pancreatic cancer now. I'm praying for Jerry. I've known him for a long time, but Jerry can throw a punch. He can take a punch. So, number one, Shift, if Jerry Nadler is out running you, you need to.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Get in better shape.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

So. But the deal is, it was just shocking, and we were all pulling for Nadler to win the race.

[Michael Knowles]

We'd heard enough of Schiff.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

So Schiff started good, but after about 30 hours of Schiff, you're ready to turn the channel. You know it's bad when people want to hear Nadler not, not shift. So the bottom line here is the classic story. And I know we got to go because y'all gotta do whatever you do in a podcast world. Senator, is this your first don't drink and drive? So here's the deal.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

His flip flows so doesn't download him.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Chuck Schumer trying to be clever. Sometimes he is. Sometimes we all fall short in his business. He invites, he gives his ticket to be a spectator at the trial to Parnas, to.

[Michael Knowles]

This is this corrupt Ukrainian guy, crooked.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

As snake guy in the Ukraine. Who said that? I'm in on it. Lindsey Graham knew it all. And they said. Have you ever talked to Lindsey Graham? No, but I heard he knew it all. So. So I don't know all. So they invite him to come. He shows up to get his ticket. He can't get in because he's got an anklet bracelet from the court. You can't make this one up.

[Michael Knowles]

That is. You know, I, I almost wish the.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Schumer's guest can't come into the trial cuz he's got an ankle bracelet.

[Michael Knowles]

That's par for the course.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Well, you know, State of the Union. I heard Schumer's bringing Charles Manson.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

That'd be good. That'd be interesting. The guys did. So anyway, I've never done this before. If you're number two in the podcast world, you need to up your game.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Because this is number one.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Apparently we're number one.

[Michael Knowles]

I know that. I'll take that as a compliment, maybe. You know, speaking of, we've got to get you out of here because the senators are off. You get a couple days off.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Now we are union. We're done by now.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

I'm headed to Texas.

[Michael Knowles]

Heading to Texas. Senator Graham, you're done as well in South Carolina.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

One last story. You know the two guys that led the Alamo? Both of them are from South Carolina. What does that mean? We'll go a long way for a lost cause. And I was an impeachment. Texas heroes would love Texas heroes. God bless Texas. But Henry, I was giving us the old take the Hill boys. We're going to go over the Senate. We're going to stand for truth, justice in the American way. You know, the, the, the brave men and women at the Alamo, you know, they stood their ground and you know, that's our Charge. That's our charter. I said, hey, Henry, didn't he all get killed? And he says, that's, that's something I ignored. But it's a good point. But he did say we're still talking about him to this day.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

And a final point wrapping up. There will be another bombshell.

[Michael Knowles]

There will be another show.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Kavanaugh Times, too.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

I promise you. Something else is coming.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Oh, yeah.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Between now and, and, and, and the verdict on impeachment, that will be voted on, on Wednesday. There'll be another in the New York Times probably. But something else is coming because I.

[Michael Knowles]

When I, when I saw it today, I just thought, okay, it's over.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Right.

[Michael Knowles]

I don't need to worry about it anymore. You're saying, oh, my God, they're not.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

We both were on Kavanaugh. And you asked what's next after this is that we're going to ask some hard questions. State Department, why didn't you understand this conflict of interest? Why didn't you do something about it? We're going to get to the bottom of the FISA warrant abuse. We're going to do all that stuff.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

But by the way, this is breaking news.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Yeah. We cannot live in a country.

[Michael Knowles]

So you're. Because a lot of questions in the mailbag.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

People are asking, are we going to get to the office? Not because I actually like Joe Biden. I've traveled the world with him. But, you know, if it had been Mike Pence or Vice President Cheney, they'd be all over. We can't live in a world where just one side gets looked at. I don't have any animosity in my heart toward, toward anyone. But the truth of the matter is, you got to have a country where the rules matter for everybody, not just President Trump. I mean, not for Democrats. President Trump from the day he took office to now has gone through hell. His family's gone through hell. And I promise you to those who care, we're going to get to the bottom of Burisma because it's important we find out about Burisma. We're going to find out. How could you issue a warrant four times against an American citizen? Here's the world. If Trump goes to a Russian restaurant to have dinner. He's a Russian.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

You know, and you know, you can have $3 million paid to your son in the Ukraine and nobody cares.

[Michael Knowles]

Now, if President Trump gets acquitted, you're saying the Senate Republicans are not going to give up on this. What can be done to get to the bottom of.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Jim Rich is Chairman of Foreign Relations Committee. The first witness I want to call is John Kerry's chief of staff. When you were told that there was a conflict of interest by John Kerry's stepson, who was their business partner, why don't you do something about it?

[Senator Ted Cruz]

And last I checked, both you and I are on foreign relations.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Last time I checked, we're on Judiciary and we're on foreign relations. This is the beginning of a day of reckoning.

[Michael Knowles]

This is not the beginning of the end. Maybe the end of the beginning. We're moving on.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Is it's the end of the podcast.

[Michael Knowles]

I hope, and it's the end of the. One thing I want to know before we let you get out of here and hop onto a plane, one last thing is I noticed it's much earlier tonight. Usually we're here at 2:00 in the morning, it's only 11:00 at night. Why is it that Mitch McConnell, that all these senators are letting people get out of here so early? Was there some.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

I think the Democrats wanted to go to Iowa. The Democrats jumping to go to Iowa.

[Michael Knowles]

Did, did you talk to any of your colleagues? Were they.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Well, you know, let's look at it this way. I'm not married, so why can't you get everything done the way you want it? I'll let Ted answer that question. We got 100 people in the Senate. Everybody has different agendas, but Monday. So Sunday's super bowl, right? Monday is the Iowa caucus. Tuesday's the State of the Union. Bottom line is this is the best Mitch could do. And I think Mitch McConnell did a brilliant job handling this. I really do.

[Michael Knowles]

Bets on the super bowl before we go.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

Look, I'm rooting for the Chiefs just because they beat the Texans. And so on that principle, if they go on to win at all, I get to say the Texans are the second best. In my.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

In my reckoning, I'm pulling for the Falcons.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

There we are.

[Michael Knowles]

That's our show. That's the. That's the final verdict on the Super Bowl. We've got a whole lot more coming up.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

I don't like my chances.

[Michael Knowles]

I'm Michael Knowles on behalf of Senator Lindsey Graham. So gracious to spend the night in our bunker over here.

[Senator Lindsey Graham]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

[Senator Ted Cruz]

This episode of Verdict with Ted Cruz is being brought to you by Jobs, Freedom and Security pac, a political action committee dedicated to supporting conservative causes, organizations, and candidates across the country. In 2022, jobs, freedom and Security PAC plans to donate to conservative candidates running for Congress and help the Republican party across the nation.