Ted Cruz (4:32)

Welcome back to Verdict with Ted Cruz. It is so wonderful to be with our friend Liz Wheeler again. Liz, I know you've been away. You've been doing your own speeches. You've been doing your show, the Liz Wheeler Show. Last time I saw you, I was on your show at the National Conservatism Conference where all three of us actually were speaking. And it's wonderful to be with you finally again.

Liz Wheeler (4:54)

Yeah. It's so good to see you. It is funny how the three of us tend to always be in the same location but not because of the same reason. We come separately. But we did, we got to sit down for a long form interview. You and I did.

Ted Cruz (5:04)

We did. And we actually talked about this guy. Who's the other guy on this show? What's his name? He's the sitting US Senator. What's that? Ted Cruz? Yes.

Liz Wheeler (5:11)

I don't know if your ears were itching a little bit when we did discuss you, we did discuss your show, even though you weren't there.

Michael (5:16)

Whatever you said, I wasn't there. I didn't do it.

Ted Cruz (5:18)

So whatever it was, total lies. Do not believe a word of it. Well, we're gonna be getting into exactly what happened here in not just. Not merely the political angles and the media angles and the narratives, but what actually happened in Kenosha, Wisconsin, that led to this trial of Kyle Rittenhouse. Then we will get to what it means. So, Liz, we will see you in just a little bit when we need to process what all of this actually means.

Liz Wheeler (5:42)

Thanks, Michael.

Michael (5:43)

Everybody at home, everybody at work is talking about this verdict. And it is an amazing thing because it is so polarized. Listen, we live in a time where everything is polarized. But the morality tale that is told about the trial of Kyle Rittenhouse, they're two different universes. If you talk to someone on the left, they are horrified, they are shaken. They're like, okay, some crazed white supremacist illegally brought a gun across state lines and then gunned down protesters, and now he was set free. And vigilantes are encouraged to shoot anyone they want. On the other side, you get a morality play of, you know, Kyle Rittenhouse, this great hero for justice was vindicated. And listen, I am very glad for the verdict. I think the jury reached the right verdict, which is not guilty. But by any measure, what happened that night in Wisconsin was a tragedy, and it was a tragedy on many fronts.

Ted Cruz (6:45)

Because there is a lot of ignorance just on the basic facts of the case. You know, members of my own family have reached out to me and said, wait, I thought this happened. Wait, I thought it was like this, and just getting things wrong. Maria Shriver actually sent out a tweet. Maria Shriver is as plugged in to the media and to politics as it can possibly be when you're a Kennedy. And nevertheless, she seemed not to understand the basic facts. I think you had a little bit of an exchange with her on Twitter.

Michael (7:14)

Well, I did. So her tweet was rather amazing in that she tweeted, she said, I'm trying to take a beat to digest the Rittenhouse verdict. My son just asked me, how is it possible that he didn't get charged for anything? How is that possible? I don't have an answer for him. And I gotta say, I read this, and look, on one level, it's stunning. I mean, this woman, I looked actually at her Twitter. I wasn't sure what she's doing now. But her Twitter bio describes herself today as an NBC anchor. So she is literally paid to be a journalist and presumably to report on the news. And she has absolutely no idea what occurred. Try this. Number one, he was charged. Remember, she starts with how could it be that he wasn't charged? He was charged.

Ted Cruz (8:07)

He obviously was charged. There was a trial.

Michael (8:09)

He was charged with six counts. And as I tweeted, that thing that just finished was his trial. Let's start with that. NBC is claiming he wasn't charged with anything. Very basic facts. Look, let's stop for a second and go back to what happened that night last year. We all remember we saw riots occurring across the country. We saw violent riots occurring across the country. And we saw in The August of 2020, in these riots, we saw cars being firebombed, we saw stores being looted, we saw enormous mayhem. And we saw it made even worse by politicians, almost exclusively Democrats and maybe exclusively Democrats refusing to enforce the laws and so allowing these riots to rage. And in Kenosha, Wisconsin, there were three days of violent riots and hundreds of fires set and stores looted and car dealerships looted and just rampant violence.

Ted Cruz (9:22)

And this was led by BLM and Antifa. I mean, the Kenosha riot was specifically because the cops shot Jacob Blake, who was a man who was resisting arrest, who was accused of sexual assault, who was reaching into a car with a weapon. The car had kids in it as well. You know, there had been this long standoff where he wouldn't submit to being arrested. But even that then caused days and days of riots as though it were some grave injustice.

Michael (9:52)

Yeah, you literally had a knife wielding felon who was threatening the police officers who got shot. And by the way, it's really bad idea to threaten police officers with a weapon. It can very easily end in deadly force. And that, that is what occurred there. But in this hyper leftist environment, a criminal threat, threatening a police officer with a weapon, who in turn faces deadly force, becomes lionized as a hero. And we had riots occurring for multiple days. Now, Kyle rittenhouse, he was 17 years old. Kyle lived about 20 miles away from Kenosha. So he lived in Illinois. It is true he lived in Illinois, but right on the state line between Illinois and Wisconsin and Kenosha, Wisconsin is where Kyle Rittenhouse's mom lived. It's where Kyle actually worked. He worked as a lifeguard in Kenosha. So to say cross state lines. People get this image of someone, me, traveling from Texas to New York or something. I mean, this was 20 miles away from his house. This was his neighborhood, where his mom worked, where his mom lived, where he worked. And there were multiple days of protests. And so Kyle went there to help protect the stores, help protect the properties that were being burned, that were being looted, and that, sadly, that the local law enforcement was not protecting. He went there. One of the things that has been widely reported that people say is, well, he was illegally carrying a gun. That is, in fact, false. He actually did not carry any gun across state lines. When he got to Wisconsin, he met a friend there who had an AR15. Now, what is an AR15? And this is, again, where people don't. People don't necessarily understand the language. An AR15 is a rifle. It's not a machine gun. An AR15 is a legal rifle. In fact, it's the most popular rifle in the United States of America. It is a common rifle used for home defense. The difference for those who are not familiar with firearms between an automatic rifle and a semiautomatic rifle. An automatic rifle is a machine gun. You hold the trigger down, and lots of bullets come out. A semiautomatic rifle, you pull the trigger. Once one bullet comes out, you pull the trigger again, a second bullet comes out. So it takes one bullet for each pull of the trigger. Is the difference between automatic and semiautomatic. Generally speaking, automatic rifles, machine guns are largely. They're functionally illegal. They've been functionally illegal for over 80 years. You have very, very limited licenses and permits to get one. But as a practical matter, most Americans, it's illegal to own a machine gun. Kyle Rittenhouse didn't have a machine gun. He had a semiautomatic rifle. That rifle was his friend's rifle that his friend allowed him to use in Kenosha that night because they were both going out to try to protect the local community, protect the local community from violent criminals that were threatening the community. So on the claim that he had an illegal gun, we know that claim is false, because I mentioned a minute ago he had six charges. One of the charges that was brought against him was that he was carrying a gun illegally. That charge was dismissed by the trial court as a matter of law. The court ruled that it was wrong that it was legal for him to possess the firearm he had. So that claim is false. What happened was a violent riot was unfolding, and the violent riot consisted of a lot of really violent criminals. The first individual that Rittenhouse encountered was a violent felon named Rosenbaum. Rosenbaum was a convicted child molester. Someone who served 15 years in prison.

Ted Cruz (14:03)

A serial child molester. More than one time, he pleaded guilty.

Michael (14:08)

To two counts of molesting teenage boys. At the time he was charged, it was alleged that he had molested five different teenage boys. And he pleaded guilty and served 15 years for it. So we're talking a serious violent criminal and child molester. Rosenbaum saw Rittenhouse, angrily pursued Rittenhouse, screamed at him that he was going to kill Rittenhouse, chased Rittenhouse, and tried to physically grab his gun. Now, Kyle Rittenhouse is running away. At the time, he's facing a large, angry, violent felon who is screaming death threats at him and trying to physically take his gun. And it is quite reasonable for someone to believe if the violent criminal succeeds in taking your gun, that he will do what he is threatening to do, which is to kill you. And so Kyle Rittenhouse shoots Rosenbaum and kills Rosenbaum as he's trying to take his gun. At this point, what does Rittenhouse do next? And remember the narrative that's being told of he's this crazed vigilante. He's out there, like, wanting to shoot people. Rittenhouse begins running towards the police barricades, trying to turn himself in, and a mob chases him.

Ted Cruz (15:49)

So Rittenhouse running toward the cops, presumably not because he believes he has committed some crime, but as he's doing it, this mob, this Antifa and BLM mob, starts chasing after him, and Rittenhouse goes down. Now, at this point, you get the second interaction that's in play with the Rittenhouse trial, and that is Anthony Huber. So Anthony Huber, another convicted felon, comes up, and Huber doesn't have a gun. Huber has a skateboard. Now, at a lot of these BLM and Antifa riots, the weapons that are used are not always conventional weapons. Sometimes it's a baseball bat, sometimes it's a skateboard, sometimes it's a can of soup. They'll actually throw cans at you. Cause cans are very heavy. And if they clock you on the head, that's not gonna leave you feeling very good. And that can really do some damage. But this is a part that's a little bit controverted, because what the defenders of these felons and antifa and BLM were saying is that Rittenhouse had no right to shoot a guy who was simply hitting him with a skateboard. Actually, one of the prosecutors in the case said, look, everybody takes a beating every now and again. Is that the legal standard?

Michael (17:02)

You know, it's not. You have a right to defend yourself from an imminent threat to your life and imminent threat of harm. And he's afraid for his life. And so Huber is the second person, as this guy is assaulting him again, that he shoots and kills Huber. He then has a third violent felon, Gage Grosskreutz, who. All right, a third convicted felon is chasing him. Grosskreutz is armed. Now, interestingly, somebody here did have a gun illegally. That would be Gage Grosskreutz, who was the felon who illegally had a firearm, was carrying it illegally without a license. And Gage testifies at the trial that he points his gun directly at Kyle from three feet away. Points his gun. And when he points his gun, Kyle fires again, hits him in the arm, doesn't kill Gage. Gage survives and testifies, but does real damage to his arm. Those are the three people that were shot that night. Now, it's worth noting several of the facts that the media got wrong. Number one, there are, I'd be willing to bet, tens of millions of people across America who believe Kyle Rittenhouse shot three black men, because this has all been painted as a racial attack. As it so happens, Kyle Rittenhouse did not shoot any African Americans. All three of the people he shot were white. Secondly, you know, it's interesting, I've heard some people who say, well, Rittenhouse didn't know these guys were criminals. And it's worth pausing and thinking, why is it that all three of the people who were shot were criminals? And let me just say, look, when you're at a violent riot, where they're committing crimes all around you, where they're burning cars, where they're looting, many of the people, I'd venture to say most of the people there are criminals.

Ted Cruz (19:15)

Well, this is, I think, where the confusion. Yes, this is where I think the confusion comes from. Because the way the media presented this riot is they said it was a peaceful protest of anti racist demonstrators. And so, yes, if you're at a peaceful protest of anti racist demonstrators, then you have no reason to believe that the people who are around you are criminals. But that wasn't the reality. If you are at a violent riot with arson and looting and assault and attempted murder, then there's a very good chance if you are around Antifa or some of the more lurid figures of blm, there is a statistically, it's almost a statistical certainty that you are around criminals. So we know what happened, which is very different than what the media told us happened. We know that legally, Rittenhouse was in the right. We know that the judge, then the jury reached that conclusion. Certainly the jury reached that conclusion. And so he has been exonerated in this trial. But now that we know what did happen, I think the important thing is to ask, what does it mean? And for that, I think we should bring in our friend Liz Wheeler, who is back. Liz, wonderful to be with you again.

Liz Wheeler (20:24)

Thank you so much, Michael. Senator, I think a lot of people, when they hear the analysis or read the facts, see the reality of what actually happened. Yes, they're very grateful that our system of justice worked in this particular instance. But they also want to know what happens next. What does this mean? What do we do moving forward? And one of the biggest questions that I've seen from people all over our country of all political stripes, is what does it mean when the Department of Justice now says that they are going to potentially conduct a review of this verdict? Can Kyle Rittenhouse be tried again, or what might that mean for him?

Michael (20:57)

Well, look, the Biden Justice Department, it's been fairly striking. In less than a year, they've managed to exceed the bar for the Obama Justice Department in terms of politicizing the Department of Justice. And I think that is an exceedingly troubling development that under Merrick Garland, this has been a left wing Democratic Department of Justice. I think if the Department of Justice went after Rittenhouse, it would be an absolute abuse of power and a partisan abuse of power. There was a trial. The jury heard the evidence. The worst conduct in the aftermath of that night was from the media and from Democratic politicians who over and over and over again referred to Kyle Rittenhouse as a white supremacist.

Ted Cruz (21:45)

Senator, the President of the United States referred to Kyle Rittenhouse as a white supremacist. He put him in a campaign ad.

Michael (21:50)

The wild irresponsibility of Democrat after Democrat. It was a good political narrative to say this teenager was a white supremacist. The only problem for their story was there were no facts at the trial that backed it up. And they said it anyway. They said it deliberately. They said it repeatedly. And listen, this is something I've been saying for some time. I think there are a bunch of media outlets and Hollywood celebrities who had better hire some defamation lawyers because Rittenhouse is gonna be suing a lot of them. And they don't have a defense. They don't have a good defense because there are people who are actually in a position to know facts. And they decided this 17 year old's life doesn't matter to me. I'm gonna call him a Nazi. And who cares what the facts are, because it fits my politics.

Ted Cruz (22:48)

Well, I think that's what a lot of people are wondering now is knowing that we have very strong free speech protections in America. We don't have as much of an opportunity for libel suits or slander or as they have in other countries. Does Rittenhouse have a case? Is he going to become the new owner of CNN or the Washington Post or any of those outlets?

Michael (23:08)

So I think Rittenhouse has a very strong case. I think he will file defamation lawsuits. I hope he has retained good and effective lawyers. And I think he's going to have to assess. I think there are a lot of potential candidates to be defendants for these lawsuits. And, you know, there's a famous Supreme Court decision called New York Times versus Sullivan that concerns the standards for defamation. And basically what it says is if someone's a public figure, if someone has injected themselves into the public discussion, that there's a higher standard to prove defamation. So, all right, I'm a public figure. I'm a U.S. senator. I ran for office. I've been elected. You can have. The New York Times can say nasty stuff about me, and they do on any given day. They probably have today. And as a general matter, it is very, very hard for me to sue them for defamation. Why? Because the Supreme Court, New York Times versus Sullivan, said for me to succeed in a defamation suit, I have to prove actual malice. It's a standard they invented, which is a higher standard, that basically they have to know they're lying or be utterly reckless in saying, we don't give a damn if we're lying. We're just gonna spread it anyway. And so it's a pretty high standard. The interesting thing about Rittenhouse, I think Rittenhouse has a real argument that he was not a public figure. He was a teenage kid who the press made a public figure. But when you started seeing the media and celebrities and Democrats attacking him, he had not done anything to make himself a public figure. Yes, he was a defendant at trial, but that happened later. And for that matter, after the jury verdict, after it was clear that there wasn't any evidence at trial, he was a white supremacist. We saw a bunch of media folks repeating the same lies. I mean, I gotta say, the ones that doubled down after the verdict, they really should have put, like, a giant kick me sign on their back, except instead of kick me, it should have said, sue me. Because they don't care what the truth is they're going to spread their political message, truth be damned. And I very much hope the people who were willing to spread lies and didn't care about the truth, I hope we see some very big damages awarded to Kyle Rittenhouse.

Liz Wheeler (25:44)

Well, I think this idea that Kyle Rittenhouse and I agree, Senator. I mean, it seems that he's going to be in physical danger. Even his lawyer and his family have mentioned as much. But this speaks to the bigger philosophical idea that the left isn't interested in the pursuit of justice. They aren't interested in saying, listen, the jury spoke, and what? Even if we disagree with the jury, this is how our criminal justice system works. No, they're interested in destroying this kid. They're interested in destroying Kyle Rittenhouse's life, his reputation, his future, because they're interested in destroying the institution, our criminal justice system, this presumption of innocence until proven guilty. And they admitted as much on Twitter during the trial itself, of course. But in the aftermath, but kind of staying within this same train, I don't think they're going to relent. I don't think they're going to give it up. I don't think they're going to stop coming after him. There's already been talk that there are going to be civil lawsuits against him, against Kyle Rittenhouse on behalf of some of the victims. From a legal perspective, what do you make of that?

Michael (26:40)

Look, I think they can bring lawsuits. I think the lawsuits are very unlikely to be successful. That may not stop people from filing harassment lawsuits to try to proceed. You know, we've seen in some circumstances, you think O.J. simpson, where there were civil lawsuits that had a lower threshold and a greater chance of success than the criminal trial. This is very different. I mean, that O.J. simpson was not an instance of self defense in this case. Look, I think what we have seen in and around and in the aftermath of the Kyle Rittenhouse trial is the perversion and destruction of our justice system from the hard left. And that was true on multiple levels. During the trial, you saw much of the media, you saw many of the left wing commentators demonizing the judge, attacking the judge personally, trying to defame the judge. The judge, by the way, is trying to enforce the law. So, for example, by the way, this prosecution, this prosecutor is the gomer pile of screw ups, is one of the worst trial lawyers I've ever seen. He got repeatedly admonished from the trial judge because he kept doing things wrong. He stood up to the jury and said, can you believe he exercised his right to be silent. Well, you're allowed to do that. The, the fifth Amendment protects your right to remain silent. The moment that really encapsulates it is when the Prosecutor took the AR15 and pointed it at the jury with his finger on the trigger. Which is horrific. And by the way, anyone who has the barest modicum of firearms training knows you don't put your finger on the. You don't point the gun at anybody unless you are in a situation where you are prepared to and may need to use lethal force. And you don't put your finger on the trigger unless you are prepared to it, in the instance of pulling the trigger, to fire the gun. And it, you know, to be honest, it, when he pointed it at the jury, it reminded me of, you know, Alec Baldwin. I mean, it was something nobody who was familiar with firearms would possibly do. And yet this clown was literally pointing a gun and hoping it was unloaded at the jury. But the perversion of justice, those on the left, and that includes Democrats and media and Hollywood, they don't care that the jury heard the evidence and has spoken. They don't care about self defense. Stephen Colbert says, well, if the law says that it's self defense, we should change the law. So what they're saying is you should not have the right if someone is violently attacking you, if you are on the ground, if a mob is chasing you, if they are beating you, if they are threatening to kill you, you should not have the right to defend yourself. That's scary stuff. But the perversion of justice is broader than that. All of this began because left wing prosecutors and left wing politicians refused to enforce the law and protect the community from Kenosha against violent rioters. If law enforcement had been allowed to do its job, to arrest the rioters, to put them in jail, to put them in handcuffs, you know what? Rosenbaum would have still been alive. Huber would have still been alive. They would have been arrested for being violent criminals and rioting, but they would have still been alive. But the politicians created this problem. And I got to say we saw a manifestation of that tragically this week again in Wisconsin with the horrific Christmas parade. The lunatic who drove the SUV into that parade, killing wounding dozens, I think upwards of 40 people, including young children. It was horrific. And you notice the media isn't covering what caused it. You had an individual, number one, a Black Lives Matter supporter, a rapper, a repeat felon, who had just recently been arrested. For what? For running someone over with his car. Not just someone. The mother of his child, the same car that he used to commit this crime. He had run her over with to violently assault her. He had been arrested. And there's a left wing prosecutor, the district attorney in Milwaukee, who was elected with George Soros financial support. He's part of the left wing prosecutors across the country who don't prosecute violent criminals. They let this guy go, Michael, do you know what his bail was that they let him go on?

Ted Cruz (31:30)

So it's hard to keep track because he's been arrested so many times in recent years. The first time, gosh, it was either 500 or $1,000. And I think it was $1,000 this time too.

Michael (31:43)

Yep, it was $1,000. He was on bail for running over the mother of his child with the car. He was out on bail and just a few days later, boom, he runs over dozens of people. And it's the same problem when you have left wing politicians, prosecutors, DAs, governors, mayors that refuse to enforce the law. Violent criminals target innocent citizens. And whether that is burning stores and car lots in Kenosha and I mean, what a nightmare. The videos of that lunatic driving into that parade is the stuff of nightmares. But it's not an accident. It's the result of policies destroying our justice system, which the radical left is trying to spread across the country.

Ted Cruz (32:36)

And this is the dark side of criminal justice reform, which is the euphemism that is used for movements as radical as abolishing the police or abolishing prisons. Rashida Tlaib, the Democrat Congressman, continues to maintain that we need to empty out federal prisons within 10 years, empty them all out, not leave a single person in them. And this is. It sounds all very nice and happy and feel good and kumbaya and we're gonna be really compassionate to the criminals. Well, here's the flip side, is that people who have done very bad things, who are not reformed, who are gonna do really bad things again, go out and what do they do? Surprise, surprise, they do really bad things. This is the practical effect of the extremes of criminal justice reform. And hopefully people can learn a lesson from that. Republicans certainly, but hopefully Democrats too. Because I don't think people like to see their communities being torched and looted and attacked by these criminals.

Michael (33:31)

I wanna take a minute and praise the courage of the 12 members of the jury. Look, it was not complicated that there was and remains a very real threat to their physical safety and lives. Left wing activists were taking their pictures. I mean, heck, MSNBC was banned from the courtroom because the cameraman was allegedly trying to follow the jurors. And I promise you, those jurors knew if we vote to acquit, we may find radicals threatening us and our families. And, you know, it's easy to say, well, of course they did the right thing. Look, jurors get scared. And it was. There were a lot of forces that wanted to use the threat of violence to intimidate those jurors to convict that kid, facts be damned. We want a scalp. And I just want to praise those 12 men and women for doing the right thing in the face of a real risk of intimidation and violence. That is a moment to be proud of our country and our justice system. For ordinary Americans doing their duty and following the law, absolutely.

Ted Cruz (34:49)

Courage and moral clarity are in short supply. So it's really edifying and gratifying to see people exercise that. All right, we've gotta go. Liz, anything before we leave?

Liz Wheeler (34:58)

Yes. We do not have time in this episode today because we had so much good content for a mailbag. But for next week's episode, go on over to verdictwithtedcruise.com+ if you are a subscriber on the plus community, then you get exclusive access to ask questions that the senator, Michael and I will answer live here on the show. Go to verdict with TedCruz.com plus for all kinds of extra goodies to any questions we don't get to here on the show. We usually try to get to over on plus. Michael.

Ted Cruz (35:26)

Excellent. And you know, there's the plus virtual digital community. But we are gonna be coming to a school near you. We are going on the road in real life. The Verdict tour will continue with Young America's Foundation. To submit your school to apply to have us come to your school and do a live show and talk to everybody and take your questions, go to yaf.org verdict the deadline to apply is December 15th. So please get all of those schools in. We will go to right wing schools. What are there like three of those? We'll go to left wing schools. We will go all over the country. So make sure you get your schools in. For now, that's all. I'm Michael. This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

Michael (36:13)

This episode of Verdict with Ted Cruz is being brought to you by Jobs, Freedom and Security Pack, a political action committee dedicated to supporting conservative causes, organizations and candidates across the country. In 2022, Jobs, Freedom and Security PAC plans to donate to conservative candidates running for Congress and help the Republican Party across the nation.