Part 2: Elon Musk 1-on-1 Exclusive at the White House-DOGE, AI, Trump, Mars & Killer Robots

Summary

The 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson: Part 2 Summary

Episode Title: Part 2: Elon Musk 1-on-1 Exclusive at the White House-DOGE, AI, Trump, Mars & Killer Robots
Release Date: March 19, 2025
Host: Ben Ferguson
Guest: Elon Musk
Duration Covered: [01:52] to [23:35]

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1. Introduction to the Exclusive Interview

Hosted by Ben Ferguson, this episode marks the second part of an exclusive conversation with Elon Musk, delving deep into his visionary plans and the technological advancements shaping our future. The discussion takes place at the White House, setting the stage for an insightful exploration into Musk's aspirations for humanity's expansion into space and beyond.

2. Mars Colonization Plans

Ben Ferguson opens the dialogue by inquiring about Musk's timeline for humans setting foot on Mars.

• Elon Musk [01:59]: “I think the soonest would be 2029.”

• Ben Ferguson [02:03]: “2029?”

• Elon Musk [02:04]: “Yes. And I don't think it's more than two to four years beyond that.”

Musk emphasizes the importance of establishing a self-sustaining city on Mars to ensure humanity's longevity. He states:

• Elon Musk [02:49]: “The key threshold is when that city can continue to grow, continue to prosper, even when the supply ships from Earth stop coming.”

3. Technology and Challenges for Mars Settlement

The conversation shifts to the technological hurdles that must be overcome to make a Mars colony viable.

• Ben Ferguson [03:55]: “How close are we technologically to be able to do that, to have a self-sustaining settlement on the surface of Mars?”

• Elon Musk [04:04]: “I think it can be done in 20 years, but it would take 20 years. So we're not in 2029, we're not there.”

Musk outlines the necessity of recreating Earth's industrial base on Mars, highlighting the harsh environmental conditions:

• Elon Musk [04:39]: “Mars is a hostile environment. It sometimes gets above zero on a warm summer day near the equator. On Mars, it's quite cold.”

He further elaborates on the need for habitable structures:

• Elon Musk [05:23]: “In the beginning on Mars, you have to have a life support habitation module. Right. Like you need... glass domes types of thing.”

4. Thoughts on Alien Life

Ben probes Musk's views on the possibility of extraterrestrial life.

• Ben Ferguson [02:19]: “And what do you put the odds of finding either alien life or evidence of alien life?”

• Elon Musk [02:26]: “I don't think we're going to find aliens... We may find the ruins of a long-dead alien civilization. That's possible. And we may find subterranean microbial life. That's possible.”

5. Early Career and PayPal

Musk reflects on his journey from studying physics and economics to founding successful ventures.

• Elon Musk [07:55]: “I studied physics and economics in college, which is a good foundation for understanding how the economy works and how reality works.”

He discusses the founding and eventual sale of his first internet company, which paved the way for his future successes:

• Elon Musk [07:58]: “We ended up selling that to Compaq Texas Company for about $300 million in cash about four years after I graduated.”

6. Founding SpaceX and Overcoming Challenges

Transitioning to SpaceX, Musk shares the philosophical underpinnings of the company and the initial challenges faced.

• Elon Musk [12:04]: “In order to be highly motivated, you have to have some philosophical foundation. In my case, it was that we want to expand the scope and scale of consciousness to better understand the nature of the universe.”

He recounts his attempts to procure rockets through unconventional means, such as negotiating with Russian officials to acquire ICBMs:

• Elon Musk [17:57]: “Turns out you can buy anything in Russia... they kept raising the price on me. So, I got pretty frustrated.”

Musk's persistence in overcoming financial and logistical barriers underscores his commitment to making space travel more accessible.

7. Intellectual Property Philosophy

Musk shares his unconventional views on patents and intellectual property, emphasizing the importance of open innovation.

• Elon Musk [24:15]: “Patents are for those who innovate slowly.”

He explains Tesla's approach to patents:

• Elon Musk [24:16]: “At Tesla, we actually open-sourced all our patents. So we said our patents are anyone can use them for free.”

Musk argues that most patents hinder innovation rather than help it, advocating for a more collaborative approach to technological advancement.

8. Elon Musk's Work Ethic and Company Culture

The discussion turns personal as Musk describes his intense work ethic and the culture he fosters within his companies.

• Elon Musk [27:59]: “About six hours on average” of sleep.

• Ben Ferguson [28:07]: “How many hours do you work a day?”

• Elon Musk [28:10]: “I work almost every waking hour.”

Musk attributes his effective execution to a "physics first principles" approach, insisting on in-house manufacturing to maintain quality and innovation standards.

• Elon Musk [26:09]: “I take a physics first principles approach to everything.”

He recounts his early days of sleeping at the office due to financial constraints, illustrating his dedication:

• Elon Musk [28:45]: “I have sometimes slept at the office, yeah.”

Conclusion

The interview offers a comprehensive look into Elon Musk's ambitious visions, relentless drive, and unique perspectives on technology and innovation. From colonizing Mars to revolutionizing intellectual property, Musk's insights provide listeners with a deeper understanding of the mind behind some of today's most transformative companies.

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Note: Advertisements and non-content sections from Ted Cruz and other sponsors were excluded to maintain focus on the core interview content.

Transcript

[Ted Cruz]

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[Ben Ferguson]

Let me start with a question. You know a lot about what year does man first set foot on Mars?

[Elon Musk]

I think the soonest would be 29.

[Ben Ferguson]

29?

[Elon Musk]

Yes. And I don't think it's more than two to four years beyond that.

[Ben Ferguson]

And that's not an unmanned, that's. That's a human being putting his foot on the surface.

[Elon Musk]

Yes. Best case would be 29.

[Ben Ferguson]

And what do you put the odds of finding either alien life or evidence of alien life?

[Elon Musk]

I don't think we're going to find aliens.

[Ben Ferguson]

Okay, but do we find ruins? Do we find remnants?

[Elon Musk]

We may find the ruins of a long dead alien civilization. That's possible. And we may find subterranean microbial life. That's possible.

[Ben Ferguson]

All right. If man lands on Mars in 29, how soon after that do you land on Mars?

[Elon Musk]

Remains to be seen. I'm not sure. The important thing is that we build a self sustaining city on Mars as quickly as possible. The key threshold is when that city can continue to grow, continue to prosper, even when the supply ships from Earth stop coming. At that point, even if something were to happen on Earth, it might not be World War 3, but it might be that a bad virus. Yeah, it might not be. Anything I was saying is like say civilization could die with a bang or a whimper. It may be that civilization dies with a whimper rather than a bang and simply loses the ability to send ships to Mars. So you obviously need Mars to be become self sustaining and be able to grow by itself before the resupply ships from Earth stop coming. That that is the critical civilizational threshold beyond which the probable lifespan of civilization is much greater.

[Ben Ferguson]

And how close are we technologically to be able to do that, to have a self sustaining settlement on the surface of Mars?

[Elon Musk]

I think it can be done in.

[Ben Ferguson]

20 years, but it would take 20 years. So we're not in 29, we're not there. What are we missing? What are the big technologies we don't have?

[Elon Musk]

A few people running around the surface in a hostile environment is not going to make it self sustaining. So you're going to need on the order of a million people, maybe a million tons of cargo.

[Ben Ferguson]

So. But you think we could have a million people on Mars in 20 years?

[Elon Musk]

Yes.

[Ben Ferguson]

And what's the technology we're missing right now? When you think about a million people on Mars, do we have the ability to get water, to get food, to keep them safe? I mean, what do we need to make that happen?

[Elon Musk]

Well, you need to recreate the entire base of industry of Earth. So we're here at the top of a massive pyramid of industry that starts with mining a vast array of materials. Those materials going through hundreds of steps of refinement. We grow food, obviously, we grow trees, we make things out of the trees. You've got to build all that on Mars. And Mars is a hostile environment. It sometimes gets above zero on a warm summer day near the equator. On Mars it's quite cold.

[Ted Cruz]

How do you prep for that?

[Elon Musk]

Well, in the beginning on Mars you have to have a, a life support habitation module. Right. Like you need. You can't just live outdoors. You can't breathe the air.

[Ben Ferguson]

Like a dome you think is likely?

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, glass domes type of thing.

[Ben Ferguson]

Have you identified a location on Mars that is likely to be ideal for habitat?

[Elon Musk]

What might be Arcadia Planetaria is one of the good options that's One of my daughters is named Arcadia after that.

[Ben Ferguson]

And what makes that attractive?

[Elon Musk]

My eldest son's middle name is Aries. Mars.

[Ted Cruz]

You've been thinking about this for a long time if you're naming your kids around it.

[Elon Musk]

My eldest kid is middle name is essentially Mars.

[Ted Cruz]

When did you get the dream?

[Elon Musk]

Like, I mean, he's 20 now, turning 21 soon.

[Ted Cruz]

This is a decades old.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah.

[Ted Cruz]

Dream.

[Ben Ferguson]

So like when you were 10, did you look up and say, I'm going to Mars?

[Elon Musk]

No, no. I read a lot of science fiction books and program computers, but the first, funnily enough, the first video game that I sold was a space video game called Blastar. Maybe I spawned this way.

[Ben Ferguson]

How do you. How do you become Elon Musk? Look, you're obviously smart as hell, but. But there are, there are a lot of smart people that don't do squat. And you've managed everything you've touched. Has been an extraordinary success. Yeah, yeah, look, I mean, that's just objectively right. So what, what has led to that? Because there are other smart people that. That's not true. And they gaze at their navel and they don't do anything. So what, what do you do differently that makes you so effective?

[Elon Musk]

Well, I suppose I have a philosophy of curiosity. I want to find out the nature of the universe, understand the universe. And in order to do that, we have to travel to other planets, see other star systems, maybe other galaxies, find perhaps other alien civilizations, or at least the remnants of alien civilizations. Gain a better understanding of where is this universe going? Where did it come from? And what questions do we not yet know to ask about the answer that is the universe?

[Ben Ferguson]

So let's go back 25 years. Late 90s, you're at PayPal. How do you turn PayPal into the success it was, which then helped launch you to the next one? And the next one?

[Elon Musk]

Yeah. So I studied physics and economics in college, which is a good foundation for understanding how the economy works and how reality works. And then was going to do a PhD at Stanford in advanced ultracapacitors actually as a potential means of energy storage for electric transport. Put that on hold to start an Internet company. I essentially came to the conclusion that the Internet was one of those rare things. And I could either watch it happen while a grad student or participate. And I figured I'd always go back to grad school. Grad school is going to be kind of the same, but I couldn't bear the thought of just watching the Internet happen. So I wanted to be a part of Building it. So I created an Internet company. We did the first maps, directions, yellow pages, white pages on the Internet. I actually wrote the first version of software just by myself in 95. And we ended up selling that to Compaq Texas Company, I guess, for about $300 million in cash about four years after I graduated.

[Ben Ferguson]

Wow.

[Elon Musk]

So I should say, just to preface that, I graduated with about $100,000 in student debt.

[Ben Ferguson]

Yeah, you and me both. Where's my 300 million?

[Ted Cruz]

I'm right.

[Elon Musk]

I know. And when I first arrived in North America, I arrived with $2,500, a bag of books and a. And a bag of clothes.

[Ben Ferguson]

All right, so you sell the company for 300 million. How. How much does that change your life?

[Elon Musk]

Well, I got $21 million blackjack, and. But I wanted to do more on the Internet, so started a company called X.com, which merged with a company called Confinity, which is Peter Thiel and Max Levchin. Yep. And the combined company was actually at first still called x dot com, but we later changed the name of the company to PayPal because of all the name changes. It's kind of confusing, but the company that people know as. Know as PayPal today was actually. I filed those incorporation documents for that company.

[Ben Ferguson]

Interesting.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah.

[Ben Ferguson]

Well, and as you know, Peter Thiel and I were buddies back in the mid-90s before he went and did any of this. But, you know, I became friends with him when he was a corporate lawyer in New York and just sort of a young libertarian with. With a lot of dreams. So it's. It's been a heck of a journey.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, yeah. And now, obviously, Peter was involved in a coup. You know, we had a little sort of knifing in the Senate situation where, you know, that they did cur me at PayPal. I kind of.

[Ben Ferguson]

Now, did y'all make peace after that?

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was doing a lot of sort of risky moves that I think ultimately would have been successful, But I then went on a two week trip, which was a dual money raising trip and honeymoon, and said, not done my honeymoon earlier in the year. So I was raising money while doing. Doing honeymoon, but I was kind of away from that.

[Ted Cruz]

Go over, by the way.

[Elon Musk]

It worked. It worked.

[Ted Cruz]

There you go.

[Elon Musk]

Kind of. It worked. I raised money.

[Ben Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah. And we had a honeymoon.

[Ben Ferguson]

There you go.

[Elon Musk]

So, yeah, but you don't want to be away from the battle when things are scary. So I was not there to assuage the concerns of the troops. And anyway, we patch things up. And have been friends nonetheless. And these days I like to stay at his house and stuff so obviously we're friends. And he's also invested in most of my companies.

[Ben Ferguson]

All right, so 2002, you start SpaceX. How do you start a rocket company? What's the first day where you're like I want to make rockets and I want to go to Mars. What do you do on day one?

[Elon Musk]

So I think you have to start with some sort of philosophical premise. In order to be highly motivated you have to have some philosophical foundation. In my case it was that we want to expand the scope and scale of consciousness to better understand the nature of the universe. And in order to expand consciousness we need to go beyond one planet. If we're on one planet, there's too much risk. Hopefully Earth civilization prospers very far into the future, but it may not. There's always some risk that we self annihilate through nuclear war or that there's a big meteor that takes us out like the dinosaurs. There's always some risk if all your eggs are in one basket. So it's going to be better if we're multi planet species and then once we're multi planet species the next step would be to be multi stellar and have civilization among on many different star Systems. So in 2001 I didn't think that I could, I didn't think I could sell rocket companies. So I thought I'd take some of the money from PayPal. In that case I think it was about $180 million after tax or something like that. And I thought, you know, I don't need $180 million so I'll spend a bunch of it on a philanthropic Mars mission to get the public excited about going back to Mars or going to Mars I should say. Yeah, Mars was always going to be the destination after the moon, right? In fact, if you told people in 1969 that it would be 2025 and we've not even gone back to the.

[Ben Ferguson]

Moon, let alone, it's hard to believe.

[Elon Musk]

Let alone Mars, they'd be like, what happened? Did civilization, did civilization collapse?

[Ted Cruz]

Stop?

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, like, like they would be incomprehensible that we've not been to Mars by now. If you told people this after landing on the moon in 69, why do.

[Ben Ferguson]

You think in 50 years America never went back to the moon?

[Elon Musk]

Well, we destroyed the Saturn 5 rocket that was, that could take people to the moon and had the space shuttle which could only go to low Earth orbit. And then there really hasn't Been anything to replace? No vehicle has been made since then that can go to the moon or to Mars until the SpaceX Starship rocket.

[Ben Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Elon Musk]

So can't go to Mars if you don't have the ride.

[Ben Ferguson]

So I remember you and I first met in 2013 when, when I was a brand new baby senator and I was still down in the basement office. They stick freshman senators in a basement office. Kind of like hazing.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Ferguson]

It sounds like there are 100 Senate offices, but for six months you stay in the basement, put you in a place, it's like wearing a beanie, they.

[Ted Cruz]

Want, you know, where you're supposed to be.

[Ben Ferguson]

You know, I got to say, now, 13 years into it, I think there's a lot of wisdom to doing that. But you were down in the basement office and I remember you were coming and sitting down with SpaceX, and at the time the Air Force was not letting y'all bid to launch satellites. And so you were coming and saying, look, we got a company. I think we can do a really good job of this. And yet we're locked out of this. It's a little amazing to think the journey SpaceX has gone from then to now.

[Elon Musk]

Yes, it's hard to believe that this is all real because originally consistent with my belief that we need to become a multi planet species, I thought the only way to do that would be through NASA. So. And I think I thought, well, if I can just get the public excited about Mars, then they'll do a mission to Mars. And so initially my thought was to have to send a small greenhouse with seeds and dehydrated nutrient gel, then land the greenhouse, hydrate the seeds, and you'd see these, this sort of money.

[Ben Ferguson]

Here's your truth.

[Elon Musk]

The money shot would be green plants on a red background. I also recently learned that money shot has a different meaning in some other arenas. But yeah, I'm glad you did do that.

[Ted Cruz]

Very different story.

[Elon Musk]

But what I'm trying to say is the captivating shot would be the green plants on a red background and that hopefully that would, if we did something like that, that would get the public excited about Mars, that would increase NASA's budget, and then we could send people to Mars.

[Ted Cruz]

Your dream was NASA to do this?

[Elon Musk]

Yes.

[Ted Cruz]

Not you?

[Elon Musk]

No. The original, original plan was literally to take a bunch of the money from PayPal and I guess by some people's definition waste it with no problem on a nonprofit thing. I wanted to spend a whole bunch of my money for free to get NASA's budget to be bigger so you go to friggin Mars, right? Wow. F. That's what I wanted.

[Ted Cruz]

So that was the Holy Grail.

[Elon Musk]

That's what I wanted.

[Ben Ferguson]

I was like, so when did you change?

[Elon Musk]

Why not go to Mars? That's what I wanted to know.

[Ben Ferguson]

When, when did it strike you? Okay, you're going to have to do this if you want.

[Elon Musk]

I tell it gets crazier. All right, it gets crazier. So. So then I couldn't afford any of the US Rockets because as you know, the US Rockets are way too expensive. The Boeing lock lucky rockets are crazy money I didn't have. I didn't even. Even with 180 million, there's no way I could have afforded.

[Ted Cruz]

How much were they back then?

[Elon Musk]

Well, well, with the additional stage to get to Mars, it would have been about like 80 million. So technically I could have afforded one of them, but I wanted to do two in case one of them didn't work. And then I didn't have enough money for that. And I was sort of prepared to, I don't know, waste half the money. And I figured if I had 90 million left, that'd be fine, you know, but ideally, not all of it. So I went to Russia twice to try to buy ICBMs.

[Ted Cruz]

How'd that go? And who do you call?

[Elon Musk]

The Russian rocket forces, do they sell.

[Ben Ferguson]

ICBMs, does that work?

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah, you got to tell us a story then I want to know who.

[Elon Musk]

Turns out you can buy anything in Russia.

[Ted Cruz]

Yeah, like please walk me down that. I want to know how you made that phone call and when you get there, how did that work and what.

[Elon Musk]

Do you tell your friends? Yeah, listen, I'm going to Russia. Device in my CBMs. I might not return. Depends on this situation.

[Ted Cruz]

Literally.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, so it gets slightly less insane when you understand that the Russians had to demolish a bunch of their ICBMs because of SALT talks. Like because of basically an agreement between United States and Russia to reduce the total number of ICBMs. Russia was actually obligated to scrap a bunch of their ICBMs. So if you took the very biggest ICBMs, you could convert those into a rocket at an additional stage and send something to Mars.

[Ben Ferguson]

So those are big enough with one more stage to get to Mars, to.

[Elon Musk]

Send a small payload to Mars. Yeah, so the SS18.

[Ben Ferguson]

So you try to buy ICBMs. Do you succeed or no? Or do you figure out you got to build your own instead?

[Elon Musk]

They kept raising the price on me, so. Because I figured, like, look they got to throw these things in scrap yard anyway. You should get a really good deal. Yeah, right. So the price started out at 4 million. Then the next conversation they were at 8 million. Then the next conversation they Were at like 19 million. And I'm like, this is before we signed a contract, by the way.

[Ben Ferguson]

Was there another bidder? Was there another bidder or were you the only one trying to buy them?

[Elon Musk]

I think. I don't know if there were other bids, but they didn't mention any other bids. But I was like, man, if the price is increasing this much before the contract signed, I'm really going to get fleeced after the contract sign. So I got pretty frustrated there, actually. In some cases. We got into shouting matches in Moscow. Some guy's shouting at me in Russian. I'm shouting back at him with my interpreter.

[Ben Ferguson]

That put it on really badly, you.

[Elon Musk]

Know, I'm like, so you were all.

[Ted Cruz]

I mean, you're all in rubbing me off.

[Elon Musk]

In Moscow. Yeah. So, man, I should have recorded that. That would have been wonderful.

[Ted Cruz]

How many days were you there negotiating that? First time. I mean, was this like ongoing?

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, yeah. This, this took place, these conversations took place over probably six months or so.

[Ted Cruz]

Wow.

[Elon Musk]

So then the final trip there was with Mike Griffin, who later became NASA administrator. I actually realized in the course of this that my original premise was wrong. That America actually has plenty of will to go to Mars, but it just needs a way to Mars that is affordable and that doesn't break the budget.

[Ben Ferguson]

As you know, we couldn't even get to the space station. We needed the Russians to get us to our own space station.

[Elon Musk]

That was embarrassing.

[Ben Ferguson]

It really was pitiful.

[Elon Musk]

I'm not sure most Americans know just how much we were being fleeced. Like, I think they got up to like $90 million seat.

[Ben Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Ted Cruz]

Wow.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah. For a seat that cost them.

[Ted Cruz]

Like, that was pre doge, obviously, but.

[Ben Ferguson]

It was the only.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, it was before SpaceX. But $90 million seat for a seat that cost them 10 million is high. Yeah.

[Ted Cruz]

That's a lot of money.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah.

[Ted Cruz]

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[Ben Ferguson]

So a few months ago, you and I were down in Boca Chica with the President for a starship launch. And it is incredible what you built in Boca Chica. You know, five years ago, it was an empty beach at the southern tip.

[Elon Musk]

Of Texas and bar. Yeah.

[Ben Ferguson]

And it's now a city and a factory where you're building a rocket ship a month with incredible precision.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah.

[Ben Ferguson]

But one of the things you, you said to me when we were down there, that really stood out to me is, is. Is you said your philosophy on intellectual property. I've talked to lots of CEOs. They're like, we fight to guard our IP. And you had a very different approach. What's your view of IP patents of the week?

[Elon Musk]

Patents are for those who innovate slowly.

[Ben Ferguson]

I literally do not know anyone else in business who would say something like that. Like. Like it was a startling. And what Elon said down there is, he said, look, this stuff, I assume everyone will steal everything, but by the time they steal, it will be five generations beyond and it won't matter.

[Elon Musk]

Yes, at Tesla we actually open sourced all our patents. So we said our patents are anyone can use them for free. Really? Yeah. We only do patents at Tesla to avoid patent trolls causing trouble. So we'll try to look ahead, say, okay, patent trolls are going to trial patent, file patents to block certain things. We'll file patents and then open source that make it free. I mean it when I say patents for the week. Now, there are a few cases in, say with pharmaceuticals where it might cost you a billion dollars to do a phase three human trial, but then subsequently the drug is very cheap to manufacture. So cases. There are some, in my opinion, which is massively reduce what can be patented and say. Because the whole point of patenting is to maximize innovation, not inhibit it. And in my opinion, it's maybe a controversial opinion. Most patents inhibit innovation, they do not help it. But there are case, I do want to single out cases like where, such AS a phase 3 clinical trial that might cost a billion dollars, but then the drugs thereafter cost a few dollars to manufacture. And if you can then immediately copy those drugs for a few dollars, no one will pay for the billion dollar.

[Ben Ferguson]

A free rider prop.

[Elon Musk]

Free rider problem. Yeah, exactly. So you have to address the free rider problem. But other than that, there should be no patents. Ideas are easy.

[Ted Cruz]

You want ideas to flow maximum to people to get there faster and do things bigger.

[Elon Musk]

The idea is the easy part. The execution is the hard part. As the old saying goes, it's 1% inspiration, if not less than 1% and 99% perspiration.

[Ben Ferguson]

But I'll say the perspiration part, you're really damn good at also because you're making, you know, the companies you're building are actually building stuff. They're building cars, they're building spaceships, they're building things that if they don't work, it's a real problem. And, and yeah, the precision you manufacture things with, how do you get that level of precision? How do you get, how do you build a culture? You're not, you're amazing at thinking outside the box. But, but what's interesting is you're, you may even be better at execution, which is how do you execute so effectively?

[Elon Musk]

Well, I take a physics first principles approach to everything. It's not as though I wanted to in source manufacturing, it's just that I was unable to outsource it effectively. So the idea in the beginning of Tesla was that we would outsource almost all the manufacturing. But then it turned out there were no good companies to outsource manufacturing to which there wasn't really. Really. It wasn't feasible. Outsourced manufacturing actually is the exception of the rule. And, and just over time, we had to insource almost everything for Tesla and same for SpaceX. I became very good at manufacturing because I had to. There was no choice. At this point I might know more about manufacturing than any, any human ever has because I've learned so many. I've manufactured so many different things in so many different arenas. I think probably more than anyone ever has.

[Ben Ferguson]

Look, that sounds like an astonishing statement, but it's not a crazy statement. And you're somehow running Tesla and running SpaceX and running X and running the boring company and running Neuralink and doing Doge. How much do you sleep in a given night?

[Elon Musk]

About six hours on average.

[Ben Ferguson]

So about six. So that's. It wouldn't have shocked me if you said three or four.

[Ted Cruz]

So the next question is, how many hours do you work a day?

[Elon Musk]

I work almost every waking hour.

[Ben Ferguson]

And Ben, he's not kidding at that. Like, when Elon and I were first getting to know each other, I suggested. I said, hey, let's grab dinner sometime. And I don't know if you remember what you said. You said, I don't eat dinner.

[Elon Musk]

I don't have social dinners. Really.

[Ben Ferguson]

Right. I mean that. Yeah, I mean, you obviously eat food, but the idea of a lot of.

[Ted Cruz]

You'Re not going to a restaurant for two hours.

[Ben Ferguson]

But the idea of like, I don't. But it was, it was just kind of matter of fact, why would I go to dinner? Like, I. You jump, you work.

[Elon Musk]

Yeah, I literally just have lunch and dinner, bro. During meetings and continue being.

[Ted Cruz]

How many nights have you slept at your offices? You think your career percentage wise, where you say, I just got to take this nap basically because my body forces me to and I got to get back to work fast and efficiently without going somewhere else.

[Elon Musk]

Well, I guess it started out even with the first company, Zip2, which is a terrible name, but the first Internet company, we were able to rent an office which was like in a leaky attic, essentially for $500 a month. And the cheapest apartment we could find was $800 a month. And we only had about $5,000 between my brother and I. So we're like, we're not. We'll just stay in the office.

[Ben Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Elon Musk]

So we got some couches that converted into beds and we'd kind of sleep at night. And then we just have to like, turn the beds back into couches before anyone came. And then we'd share at the YMCA down the road. And so that went, that literally was the for several months, what we did. I was in great shape, you know, work out the way. I still remember that YMCA at Page Mill, El Camino in Palo Alto.

[Ben Ferguson]

So that was a long time ago.

[Elon Musk]

So it's been, I don't know, I've never thought to count it, but several hundred days maybe. I don't know.

[Ben Ferguson]

So you're now the richest man on earth. Do you still sleep in the office? Well, that's true. Maybe Mars will find someone else.

[Elon Musk]

But I think if, if someone is a sovereign head of a country, they're de facto richer by a lot.

[Ben Ferguson]

Do you still sleep at the office now?

[Elon Musk]

I have sometimes slept at the office, yeah.

[Ted Cruz]

Don't forget, we do this show Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Hit that subscribe or auto download button from the White House. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for being with us on Verdict. We'll see you guys back here in a couple of days.

[Ben Ferguson]

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