Thanksgiving Love Triangle

Summary

Verdict with Ted Cruz: Episode - "Thanksgiving Love Triangle"

Release Date: November 25, 2021
Host: Ted Cruz
Guests: Michael Knowles, Liz Wheeler

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Introduction

In the Thanksgiving-themed episode titled "Thanksgiving Love Triangle," host Ted Cruz engages in a lively discussion with guests Michael Knowles and Liz Wheeler. The episode delves into the historical significance of Thanksgiving, explores a nuanced poem titled "The Courtship of Miles Standish and Michael," and navigates the complexities of maintaining political harmony during family gatherings.

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Opening Remarks and Thanksgiving Sentiments

The episode kicks off with Michael Knowles expressing his deep connection to Thanksgiving, emphasizing its importance despite modern political challenges. He states, "But it’s very unfashionable these days. The left absolutely hates it. But I don’t care." (00:05:04). Ted Cruz adds a light-hearted comment about Michael having already indulged in eggnog, setting a warm, festive tone.

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Exploring "The Courtship of Miles Standish and Michael"

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the poem "The Courtship of Miles Standish and Michael." Michael introduces the poem, highlighting its departure from the oversimplified narratives commonly portrayed in mainstream media about the Pilgrims and Native Americans. He remarks, "These were all very serious people. Some of them were very serious statesmen... a really saucy love story and love triangle in the middle, too." (00:05:56).

Historical Context and Personal Connections

Michael delves into the historical intricacies of the Pilgrims, challenging the binary portrayal of Pilgrims as solely pious and Native Americans as innocent victims. He explains the strategic alliances and political maneuvers that defined early American relations. Additionally, Michael shares a personal anecdote about his Yale roommate being descended from John Alden, one of the Mayflower passengers, leading to humorous reflections on ancestry and dating (09:10).

Liz Wheeler adds her perspective by comparing the poem to modern romantic scenarios, noting the timeless nature of human emotions and relationships. She humorously references college debates and the challenges of political correctness, stating, "It's frigging nuts... It takes two to tango. It takes four to do what?” (09:38).

Character Analysis and Themes

Ted Cruz provides a character analysis, likening Miles Standish's reluctance in romance to sending a friend to woo Priscilla on his behalf. He draws parallels to classic literature, mentioning a "Cyrano de Bergerac vibe" and highlighting the static nature of human behavior across centuries (12:32).

Michael further explains the complexities of early American relationships, pointing out the blend of romance and conflict in the poem. He underscores the poem's portrayal of alliances and battles, emphasizing that the narrative goes beyond simple good vs. evil (14:03).

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Thanksgiving Traditions and Family Dynamics

The conversation shifts to personal Thanksgiving traditions, with Liz Wheeler sharing her family's unique customs. She describes a variety of dishes ranging from traditional turkey to Cuban-influenced black beans and rice, emphasizing the diversity of her family's culinary preferences. Liz humorously touches on her preference for dark meat, sparking a playful comment from Michael about political correctness (19:33).

Ted Cruz introduces listener questions, prompting discussions about managing political disagreements during family gatherings. Liz reflects on her family's experience, noting the importance of setting boundaries to maintain harmony. She recounts how her conservative family members respectfully avoid contentious topics, allowing everyone to enjoy the meal without conflict (23:50).

Michael Knowles echoes this sentiment, highlighting the satisfaction of being the "crazy conservative uncle" and the value of transparency in familial relationships. He advises fostering patience and understanding to navigate political differences peacefully (24:14).

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Listener Questions and Community Engagement

Ted Cruz invites listener participation, addressing questions submitted by the Verdict+ Community. Topics range from personal family traditions to strategies for handling political tensions during holidays. Liz shares humorous and insightful responses, including anecdotes about family debates and the challenges of maintaining unity amidst differing political views.

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Closing Remarks and Thanksgiving Wishes

As the episode concludes, Michael Knowles and Liz Wheeler extend heartfelt Thanksgiving wishes to listeners. They promote merchandise and encourage audience engagement for upcoming events, emphasizing the importance of community and shared values during the holiday season. Michael humorously references the show's merchandise, while Liz underscores the significance of family traditions and unity (25:58).

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Notable Quotes

• Michael Knowles (00:05:04):

  "But it’s very unfashionable these days. The left absolutely hates it. But I don’t care."

• Ted Cruz (00:12:32):

  "See, that’s the kind of poetry that makes sense to the general American public. Right? That’s what we need, that kind of summary of this highfalutin language."

• Liz Wheeler (09:38):

  "It's frigging nuts... It takes two to tango. It takes four to do what?"

• Ted Cruz (12:32):

  "That's what we need, that kind of summary of this highfalutin language."

• Liz Wheeler (19:33):

  "I like dark meat. I like it, it's much more tender and moist."

• Michael Knowles (21:41):

  "The former are disgusting and the latter is indispensable to a Thanksgiving table."

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Conclusion

"Thanksgiving Love Triangle" offers a rich blend of historical exploration, personal anecdotes, and practical advice for navigating family dynamics during the holidays. Ted Cruz, alongside Michael Knowles and Liz Wheeler, provides listeners with insightful commentary on preserving the true spirit of Thanksgiving amidst contemporary political landscapes. The episode underscores the importance of understanding history, cherishing family traditions, and fostering respectful dialogue to ensure a harmonious holiday celebration.

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Transcript

[Michael Knowles]

As the descendant of four passengers on the Mayflower, one pilgrim, three so called strangers. One was the man, the first man executed for a capital offense in the New World. Another was a mutineer, and another was just a rapscallion all around. I have a deep affection and sense of connection to Thanksgiving. I know it's a holiday. It's very unfashionable these days. The left absolutely hates it. But I don't care. We're throwing out politics, we're throwing out the news this week and we are talking about Thanksgiving and America and a very lovely poem. I'm Michael Knowles. This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

[Ted Cruz]

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[Michael Knowles]

It actually was not my idea, though I did come around to the idea that would be our producer Jonathan Hay read this poem and I really love it. You know the pilgrims get a really bad Rap now. And there's so much misinformation about the relationship between the Pilgrims and the Native Americans. It's oversimplified as the Pilgrims were meanies and the Native Americans were the poor, innocent victims. And it just actually does a disservice both to the Pilgrims and to the Native Americans. These were all very serious people. Some of them were very serious statesmen. The Pilgrims formed wonderful alliances with certain Native Americans. The Native Americans used the English to defeat other groups of Native Americans. So the reality is much more interesting. And this poem is terrific because it talks about all of that drama from Plymouth and those early days after the Pilgrims landed. But there's also a really saucy love story and love triangle in the middle, too.

[Ted Cruz]

Well, Michael, speaking of reality, I think it's all very clear to everyone that Michael has already had his eggnog for the day.

[Michael Knowles]

That's before every episode.

[Liz Wheeler]

There's nothing wrong with that. I actually think most podcasts and all political debates would be better if substantially more liquor was consumed during their filming.

[Ted Cruz]

Listen, it's Thanksgiving. I'm not gonna give you an argument.

[Michael Knowles]

There, of course, and there are all of these real misconceptions. I don't know. Now we are being told by all of these various left wing activist groups that Thanksgiving is not a day to give thanks to God as it was in the 17th century and as George Washington suggested and as Lincoln suggested. But actually it's a day to think about how terrible America is and how awful we all are and, and just to feel really bad about ourselves. And by golly, I refuse to do it.

[Ted Cruz]

Does anyone actually do that? Senator, do you think that there's anybody who does this?

[Liz Wheeler]

Listen, the hard left has decided Thanksgiving is evil. I think Thanksgiving is wonderful. It is one of my favorite holidays. Christmas is my favorite, but Thanksgiving is up there. And what's great about it is being with family is being with people you love and taking time and listen, as a dad, I try. My girls are like, oh, dad, we don't want to talk about what to be thankful for, but it's, you know, to take time to reflect. Listen, you know, in the last week we had a very good friend whose son was killed. I mean, that reminds you of just all the things you have to be thankful for that you don't know that they'll be there tomorrow or next week or next year. And we're praying for and supporting our friend and the tragedy that happened. But, but the process of saying, wow, to be an American, to live in this country, to have the freedoms we have. That's worth understanding, reflecting, learning about, knowing about. And the assault on Thanksgiving is based on an ideological assault on the freedoms that are protected in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. It's based on attacking the idea of who and what America is. And I gotta say that if there's one thing I believe with every ounce of my soul, it is that this nation is the greatest nation the world has ever seen. And it was formed on a promise. It was formed on an ideal that was good and noble. That doesn't mean we didn't have our blemishes, but it has been a journey towards justice, and that is a journey to be grateful for.

[Michael Knowles]

Something I loved about the poem is it puts this into a narrative, and you actually see the characters who were there in the very earliest days. So I have to ask, what did you both think of the poem? Senator?

[Liz Wheeler]

So, look, I read the poem. I gotta say, my reaction to it is if we're doing this poem, I'm just gonna use this as an opportunity to make fun of Yale.

[Michael Knowles]

Senator. One of the great games that we played freshman year, of course, at a place like Yale, where it's like one of the waspiest institutions in America, is everyone tried to figure out who their ancestors were on the Mayflower. And actually, the protagonist of this poem, John Alden, was the ancestor of one of my roommates. And it's very. It made dating very awkward, too, because you know you're gonna end up dating your 12th cousin. It's gonna be very. Aw.

[Liz Wheeler]

Michael. Can I just say that that is frigging nuts. Like, that's bizarre. To the best of my knowledge, I don't know anyone from the Mayflower. But wait, actually, the opener of this segment, you said something that had me really puzzled in that you said four people on the Mayflower came together and had a baby. Like, how did that happen? In my biology. It's been a while since I took it, but it takes two to tango. It takes four to do what?

[Michael Knowles]

No, they were very ahead of their time because obviously, in 2021, four is actually a small sort of romantic arrangement. But back in those days, they were a little more monogamous and had more clearly defined gender roles. But one of the issues for the passengers on the Mayflower is that there weren't very many of them to begin with, and then half of them died in the first winter. And actually, as the poem talks about, there weren't all that many eligible women. And so they ended up really sort of shacking up together. And Then their children would intermarry, and the families all remained together for a long time. So if you are descended from one person who was on the Mayflower, there's a good chance that you were descended from multiple of them. And another thing people don't really remember about the Mayflower is that, yes, there were these pious pilgrims who were extremely rigid in their religion, but then there were just a bunch of people along for the ride. They were called the strangers. And they just wanted. They weren't doing that well in England. They wanted a fresh start in America. And they. They were, some of them downright degenerates. And I'm sort of sorry to say, three out of the four of my guys, they sort of fell into the latter category.

[Liz Wheeler]

So, Michael, the poem opens just in the gray of the dawn as the mists uprose from the meadows. There was a stir and a sound in the slumbering village of Plymouth, clanging and clicking of arms and the order imperative, forward. Now, for those of us not schooled in Yale literary analysis, what does that mean?

[Michael Knowles]

You know, the image that is being presented to you here? And I'll try to put on my deepest, most serious literary analyst hat here for a poem that is not the most complex thing ever written is you've got these very pious people. They've got all of their religious activities and their church, and they're so focused on God, but they also have canons. It's called a howitzer in the poem. And they're also at war, and they're at war with certain Indian tribes, and they're at peace with other Indian tribes, and they're in alliances with all of these sorts of groups.

[Liz Wheeler]

And they're two guys that have the hots for one woman. Is that right?

[Ted Cruz]

See, that's the kind of poetry that makes sense to the general American public. Right? That's what we need, that kind of summary of this highfalutin language.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes, and that's the other funny thing about those Pilgrims, as you get from both the poem, but also the history of this era. They were actually sort of a romantic people. We just picture the funny hats and the buckle shoes, but they actually could be a fairly romantic lot.

[Liz Wheeler]

So am I understanding it right that this poem is sort of an older version of the song?

[Michael Knowles]

Jolene, I'm begging of you Please don't take my gal Please, John Alden. Don't take my gal this was an.

[Ted Cruz]

Interesting thought I had while reading this poem, though. And by the way, Michael, I might have read this because you were at Yale, but I'd already read this. Cause I was homeschooled. So you got a really good. I don't know which nerd take there is gonna. Yeah, I don't know which nerd take there is gonna come out on top. But it's interesting because regardless of what year we're talking about, human nature always remains the same. It's always static. Because even back, this poem was supposed to be set in the 1600s, right? Even back then, Miles Standish, who was supposed to be the captain, he was supposed to be the tough guy, right? The alpha male was too scared to go ask his lady friend on a date. He had to send his friend John Alden, to try to win her heart. And I thought, man, some things don't change.

[Michael Knowles]

There's a little bit of a Cyrano de Bergerac vibe here where the little short old captain, and if you've ever been to the Plymouth Museum, Miles Standish was like a pygmy. I mean, he was the big captain of the colony, but he was really, really petite. You can see his arms. He was really small. And so he asked the young hot guy, John Alden, to go woo this woman Priscilla on his behalf.

[Liz Wheeler]

So how did that work out for him?

[Michael Knowles]

No, it was not. You know, Miles Standish was courageous in battle, but he wasn't the smartest man in romance. And as we know, all is fair in love and war.

[Ted Cruz]

And sweet Priscilla got the last laugh because she was the one who said, why don't you speak for yourself, John?

[Michael Knowles]

That's right.

[Liz Wheeler]

That's right. So you're saying it's generally a bad idea if you're interested in a woman to send another guy to say, hey, would you go put the moves on her?

[Michael Knowles]

You know, I don't think it takes a Casanova to recognize that that's not the best idea. But it's because this man, Miles Standish, his wife had died. But he was a one track mind. He was a warrior. There's actually a really brutal kind of fight scene between him and one of the bad Indians in here. And he was a one track mind. He was a fighter. And John Alden was a lover, not a fighter.

[Liz Wheeler]

And the lover won.

[Michael Knowles]

And the lover won. And the lover won his battle here. And, you know, there's another aspect to this of the kind of friendship between the Native Americans and the Englishman. The men who would go out and, you know, threaten these Indians, and sometimes they would have to form alliances. They also saved the life of Massasoit, who was the chief of the Indians in The region helped to build the Wampanoag nation. And they lived in peace, actually, with the Englishmen for a long time. And they would help one another out. And it was only when Massasoit's son, Prince Philip, or King Philip, rather Philip, took a obviously Christian English name, Philip mistakenly believed that the Englishman had killed his brother. It actually almost certainly never happened. But because of that miscommunication, he declared war on the Englishman. Some of the Indians sided with the English. The English and the Indians made war on the other Indians, and it broke down the peace. But for decades after they landed, there actually was a really stable peace here. And you're not going to hear that from the left wing polemicist who says, you know, English bad, Indians good. But it's a much more interesting history than you would get from the left wing media.

[Liz Wheeler]

Well, I will say the three of us were laughing a few minutes ago that the Women's March tweeted out this past week that they were apologizing that they had said their Average donation was 1492, $14.92. And something about a date of such horrible oppression to indigenous people that were embarrassed to have said that. And it's like, good God, you can't satirize these clowns anymore.

[Michael Knowles]

Senator, would you be willing to accept a donation of 1492?

[Liz Wheeler]

I actually did retweet what they said and said, you know what, you can go to my website, TedCruz.org, i'll take $14.92. I'll take 17.76, I'll take 20, 24. You can enter any amount you want.

[Michael Knowles]

Interesting.

[Liz Wheeler]

And we'll see if. And by the way, one lefty responded to that and said, how about $16.19? I said, yeah, I'll take that too.

[Michael Knowles]

So, Liz, we need to get a female perspective here on the poem and on human nature more broadly. Which man would you have gone with? The young, hot romantic or the older, grizzled, accomplished military man?

[Ted Cruz]

Okay, so this is actually a hard question, which I did think about while I was reading this poem, because Miles Standish, obviously, it's not really recommending himself when he doesn't want to plead his own case here, when he won't even tell the sweet Priscilla that he loves her. John Alden, however, I don't know that he was that big of a treat either, though, because he was so afraid of offending his friend that he wouldn't marry Priscilla until he thought his friend was dead. So I'm not exactly sure. I think she followed her heart. She married the right man here. But I do have to say, as someone married to a military man, I do have a soft spot for those grizzled old, well, sailors in this case, but soldiers.

[Michael Knowles]

I really wouldn't knock John Alden for following the Bro Code and not infringing on Miles Standish's territory. But yes, it is a difficult decision. Those pilgrims had plenty of difficult decisions. And yet we hear from the perspective of 2021. We don't give them any respect.

[Ted Cruz]

None at all. She was the only available Puritan woman, according to historical fact, in this colony. Which is interesting. Do you guys wanna jump into some of these questions? I did ask the Verdict plus Community for some Thanksgiving themed questions and we've got some real good ones here, some real doozies.

[Liz Wheeler]

Sure.

[Ted Cruz]

So if we wanna jump into these, there's a couple serious ones. A couple not so serious. Senator, let me start with you. Paul wants to know, do you have any unique family Thanksgiving traditions?

[Liz Wheeler]

You know, I don't know about unique. I mean we get together, we do turkey, we do stuffing. My mom does the stuffing, which is an old family recipe and it's one of my favorite things. We do cranberry sauce, we'll do sweet potatoes typically with marshmallows melted on top. We'll do some salad, we'll do some green beans often with shaved almonds on the green beans. We will do. We'll usually do black beans and rice because we do it at my cousin BB's and so it's out of the Q Cuban side of the family. We'll do some black beans and rice just cause Cubans aren't capable of eating anything without having black beans and rice. And then we will. By the way, I still get to. So as a kid growing up I always got the drumstick. I'm a dark meat guy much more than I don't like white meat in chicken or turkey. I like dark meat. I like it, it's much more tender and moist.

[Michael Knowles]

I'm not sure Senator Howe, that is politically incorrect. I'm not sure exactly how that will offend woke people, but I'm sure there's something there. I'm sure somehow that was a microaggression.

[Liz Wheeler]

Well, I will say in college, when I was a college debater, at one point there was a humorous debate round that in order to address overpopulation and hunger, we should encourage more cannibalism which some college kids promoted. And I think one of the opposition arguments to that is no, no, that might, you might see Racism. If people preferred white meat or dark meat, one or the other, that would be terrible. So I'm gonna get in trouble for repeating that joke that wasn't even made by me 25 plus years ago.

[Michael Knowles]

Well, that sounds like the cancel culture to me.

[Liz Wheeler]

It does. So probably the most unique. So my dad, every Thanksgiving will make a flan or a couple of flans. And my father's flan is. It is unlike probably anyone you ever had in that. It's tall. It's about 6 inches tall. And the outside of the pod, it cakes the outside of it in melted sugar. That's this deep, rich caramel. And he has lots of condensed milk in it and a ton of vanilla in it and sugar in it. And what I love about my dad's flan is the bottom inch of it is shredded coconut. And it's really. It's very rich. Sadly, neither Heidi nor the girls are particularly into the flan. But the sort of Cuban, the Cuban side of the family, we enjoy my dad's flans. And the girls and Heidi, they go for, like, the pecan pie or the apple pie or something else besides that. And then what we always do is play a lot of dominoes. So dominoes are big at our Thanksgivings and competitive.

[Ted Cruz]

We have a little tradition that if one person doesn't like a particular dish, we don't try to convince them to like it because it just means it's more for us if the fewer people are eating. Fewer people are eating the good stuff. So that's our family tradition. Michael, Jackie wants to know, where does cranberry sauce rank in your Thanksgiving list?

[Michael Knowles]

Well, one has to specify between the cranberries that are done, all homemade and whatever, and the cranberries in the shape of the can. The former are disgusting and the latter is indispensable to a Thanksgiving table. Ooh. And it's not a sauce. It's just a kind of strange jelly. And they made all of them in the 70s, and I don't think they've had to make any since. So it's very important. I never really eat it. I don't put it really on anything at all. I just want it to be sitting there in that gelatinous, American, mass produced, vaguely chemically, probably poisonous way. And I take great pleasure from that, though I would very rarely put it in my mouth.

[Ted Cruz]

Right. And there's always the contrast, by the way, of this can shaped, gelatinous blob in your grandmother's loveliest china for Thanksgiving. So it's a staple of Every American's Thanksgiving. All right, Senator Cruz, this is from Real Truth Cactus. Who asks? I'm sure this is going to be a fun one, but do you have any way to manage tough political discussions at your family's table? What advice would you give to families who are split politically?

[Liz Wheeler]

It's not easy. I don't have a great solution to that. We have some real political divides in our family. My mother and her younger sister, my aunt Carol. My aunt Carol has since passed away, but my aunt Carol was very politically liberal. My mother's very conservative. My aunt Carol was an atheist. My mom is a strong Christian. And they were very close. They were best friends as sisters and they had a rule that they didn't discuss religion or politics. And it worked. It worked for 70 plus years until my aunt passed away. We have real political disagreements in the family, but we mostly don't get into them at Thanksgiving. We don't have, you know, the Cubans and the conservatives are fairly loud and obnoxious. And there are several in the family left of the center of the aisle that mostly just choose not to engage and go do something else. They go have another serving of turkey or something.

[Michael Knowles]

One can also take great satisfaction. You always hear about your crazy conservative uncle. And it's been so wonderful since I've had nieces and nephews that I have become the crazy conservative uncle. Very good for everyone to have their cards on the table. And yes, I agree, Senator. The way to put up with the more gregarious, louder, vociferous members to tend to be on the right is with the saintly patients of our of our.

[Ted Cruz]

Family members and feed them extra and give them extra food. That's gonna calm the wildest beasts here. All right, anybody who wants to submit a question for next week's episode, go to verdict with tedcruz.com/plus if you are a Verdict+ subscriber. Well, you have exclusive access to submit questions and we also do additional mailbag segments over there. Additional segments, all kinds of access to Senator Cruz. That's verdict with TedCruise.com/plus to submit your questions for next week. Michael.

[Michael Knowles]

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. Liz, Happy Thanksgiving, Senator. Happy Thanksgiving. If you love watching Verdict, if you love writing into the show, if you potentially love having us to your college campus, you gotta get the merch. You gotta. And you can do that [e-mail] shop. That's right, verdictwithtedcruise.com shop. You can get all of the great merch. Not a lot with my face not a lot with Senator Cruz's face, a lot of cactus. Why the producers made that choice, I don't know and I won't be offended by it. But you can get your merch. Today, head on over to verdict with TedCruz.com shop all of you out there, Happy Thanksgiving. Once the holiday season is over, we are going to be back on the road. We would love to see you at your schools, so make sure you submit an application. Applications are due for the spring Verdict Live tour. They are due December 15th. So head on over to yaf.org verdict submit your school. We will see you in person. In the meantime, I'm Michael Knowles. This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

[Liz Wheeler]

This episode of Verdict With Ted Cruz.

[Michael Knowles]

Is being brought to you by Jobs.

[Liz Wheeler]

Freedom and Security pac, a political action committee dedicated to supporting conservative causes, organizations and candidates across the country. In 2022, jobs, freedom and Security PAC plans to donate to conservative candidates running for Congress and help the Republican Party across the nation.