The Bolton Bombshell

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Bolton Bombshell" - Verdict with Ted Cruz

Podcast Information:

• Title: The 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson
• Host/Author: Premiere Networks
• Episode: The Bolton Bombshell
• Release Date: January 28, 2020

Note: Although the provided podcast information references "The 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson," the transcript pertains to an episode of "Verdict with Ted Cruz." This summary focuses on the content from "Verdict with Ted Cruz."

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1. Introduction

The episode titled "The Bolton Bombshell" delves into the tumultuous events surrounding the impeachment trial of President Donald Trump. Hosted by Michael Knowles with guest Senator Ted Cruz, the discussion centers on the recent leak from John Bolton's memoir and its implications for the impeachment proceedings.

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2. The Bolton Memoir Leak and Quid Pro Quo Allegations

Key Events:

• John Bolton's Memoir Leak: A significant leak from John Bolton's new memoir, published by The New York Times, alleges that President Trump tied Ukraine aid to an investigation into the Bidens, suggesting a quid pro quo arrangement.

Notable Quotes:

• Michael Knowles [00:00]: "John Bolton throws impeachment into chaos."
• Ted Cruz [00:59]: "The New York Times had broken this story that Bolton says there was a quid pro quo."

Discussion Points:

• Impact on Republican Senators: Ted Cruz observes that some Republican senators felt unsettled by the allegations, recognizing the leak's intention to disrupt and shake the Senate.

• Understanding Quid Pro Quo: Cruz emphasizes that a quid pro quo, simply an exchange of one thing for another, is commonplace in foreign policy across different administrations. He argues that its presence or absence doesn't inherently constitute an impeachable offense.

  Quote:
  Ted Cruz [01:50]: "Every president from George Washington to today has done quid pro quos by the hundreds... Whether or not it's a quid pro quo doesn't matter. The question is, did the president commit high Crimes and misdemeanors."

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3. Senate Impeachment Trial's Progress and Witness Testimonies

Key Events:

• Opening of the President’s Defense: The Trump legal team, including prominent lawyers like Pam Bondi and Alan Dershowitz, presented their case defending President Trump.
• Potential for Additional Witnesses: The Bolton leak has increased the likelihood of bringing in additional witnesses to the trial, potentially dragging it out as Democrats seek more testimonies.

Notable Quotes:

• Michael Knowles [03:53]: "That doesn't matter to the argument for impeachment itself."
• Ted Cruz [04:34]: "We will vote probably on Friday whether or not additional witnesses will be brought in."

Discussion Points:

• Defense Team's Strategy: The Trump legal team countered the quid pro quo allegations by presenting evidence of Burisma's corruption and highlighting Joe Biden's involvement, including a taped confession.

  Quote:
  Ted Cruz [07:00]: "They laid out the evidence of Burisma... and they finally showed the tape of Joe Biden bragging about how you want to talk about quid pro quo."

• Senate's Deliberations: Cruz discusses the Senate's internal divisions and the slim possibility of securing the necessary votes to call additional witnesses, underscoring the partisan tensions within the trial.

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4. Defense Arguments and Evidence Presented

Key Events:

• Presentation of Burisma Evidence: The defense showcased evidence related to Burisma, including payments to Hunter Biden and Joe Biden's directive to fire a Ukrainian prosecutor.
• Critical Examination of Democratic Claims: Cruz criticizes the Democrats for not presenting credible evidence of President Trump's wrongdoing, positioning the impeachment as a partisan maneuver rather than a pursuit of justice.

Notable Quotes:

• Ted Cruz [07:37]: "Joe Biden on video said he told the President of Ukraine he would block a billion dollars in aid unless he fired the Ukrainian prosecutor."
• Ted Cruz [10:24]: "This is about American corruption... effectively bribing the Vice President of the United States."

Discussion Points:

• Joe Biden's Involvement: The defense highlighted Joe Biden's actions concerning Burisma and argued that these actions warrant investigation into potential corruption, thereby justifying President Trump's inquiry.
• Contradictory Evidence: Cruz points out that evidence regarding the quid pro quo is conflicting and that the mere existence of such an exchange doesn't meet the constitutional standard for impeachment.

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5. Media Reaction and Partisan Bias

Key Events:

• Media's Hostility: Cruz accuses the media of exhibiting bias against Republicans and being desperate to defend Democratic interests, especially in the context of the impeachment trial.
• Reporter’s Aggressive Tactics: An incident involving a reporter suggesting Cruz throw his young daughter in jail exemplifies the perceived media overreach and personal attacks against Republican figures.

Notable Quotes:

• Ted Cruz [12:08]: "Stop playing the nasty Washington game."
• Ted Cruz [12:27]: "Donald Trump has broken the Media, their role right now is they're desperate to be the defenders of the Democrats."

Discussion Points:

• Media's Role: Cruz asserts that the media's attempts to deflect from the core issues of the impeachment by sensationalizing personal attacks demonstrate a lack of objectivity.
• Public Perception: The aggressive stance of both the Democratic senators and the media is portrayed as undermining the legitimacy of the impeachment process.

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6. Potential Next Steps in the Impeachment Process

Key Events:

• Question Period: Upcoming days involve intense questioning from senators, with the possibility of public input via social media.
• Voting on Witnesses: The Senate is expected to vote on whether to call additional witnesses, which could significantly prolong the trial.

Notable Quotes:

• Ted Cruz [17:37]: "If we get 51 senators who say yes, then frankly, it's Katie, bar the door."
• Ted Cruz [20:01]: "Hunter Biden will almost certainly plead the fifth."

Discussion Points:

• Strategic Implications: Cruz discusses the strategic importance of witness testimonies, particularly focusing on Hunter Biden and the potential immunity granted to compel his testimony.
• Legal Nuances: The conversation touches on the constitutional aspects of impeachment versus criminal prosecution, highlighting the unique nature of the current proceedings.

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7. Conclusion and Final Remarks

Key Events:

• Uncharted Territory: The impeachment trial represents a historical first, with no previous president impeached without explicit allegations of a crime.
• Partisan Battle: Ted Cruz emphasizes that the impeachment is becoming a purely partisan battle lacking the bipartisan consensus intended by the Constitution.

Notable Quotes:

• Ted Cruz [25:04]: "We have never before in history seen a president impeached on a pure partisan vote. Only Democrats voted for it."
• Ted Cruz [22:38]: "The issue is not Hunter Biden... it's about whether his father, the vice president, was involved in corruption."

Discussion Points:

• Historical Significance: The unprecedented nature of the impeachment trial underscores the deep political divisions and the challenges in adhering to constitutional principles.
• Future Developments: Cruz hints at ongoing developments, including potential future leaks or bombshells, and encourages listeners to stay engaged through social media for upcoming questions and analyses.

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8. Post-Content Remarks

The episode concludes with a light-hearted exchange about Cruz's podcast ranking and personal anecdotes involving his family, which are outside the main content focus and thus omitted from this summary.

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Summary

In this episode of "Verdict with Ted Cruz," hosts Michael Knowles and Senator Ted Cruz dissect the implications of John Bolton's memoir leak, which alleges a quid pro quo between President Trump and Ukraine regarding Biden investigations. Cruz defends the President by contextualizing quid pro quos as common in foreign policy and shifting focus to whether President Trump committed impeachable offenses. The discussion critically examines the defense team's presentation, Democratic strategies, media bias, and the unprecedented nature of the impeachment trial. Cruz underscores the trial's potential to become a deeply partisan conflict, diverging from the intended bipartisan consensus necessary for such proceedings. The episode provides a comprehensive analysis of the day's pivotal events, offering listeners insight into the complexities of the impeachment process and its broader political ramifications.

Transcript

[Michael Knowles]

What a day. John Bolton throws impeachment into chaos. President Trump's legal team comes out swinging on their first full day of arguments. And the senator of this very podcast drives at least one journalist completely up a wall. This is Verdict with Ted Cruz. Welcome back to Verdict with Ted Cruz. I'm Michael Knowles. Thank you so much to all of the listeners who have kept this show at the top of the charts again. Now into our second week. What a big day. It started as a crazy day, before the impeachment trial even began, because of a leak from the new memoir of John Bolton, the former National Security advisor, leaked to the New York Times. And it alleges that President Trump tied Ukraine aid to to an investigation of the Bidens. Quid pro quo. He's guilty as charged, isn't that right?

[Ted Cruz]

Well, today was a big and consequential day, and you're right, it started off crazy. We all had off yesterday. So I flew home, was home with my family, then came back to D.C. at the crack of dawn, walked into the Capitol. The press was going nuts. They were in a total tizzy. The New York Times had broken this story that Bolton says there was a quid pro quo. And I gotta say, when I sat down at lunch today, before we started the trial, there were a lot of Republican senators who were feeling a little rattled by it. I mean, it was designed to shake people up, and it had a little bit of that effect.

[Michael Knowles]

I'm actually somewhat surprised that this shook up Republican senators because the story itself made all of these headlines, a big splash. And yet it seems to me, just reading about it, and especially given our previous conversations on how the quid pro quo is not really a big deal, that it's a lot of sizzle and no steak.

[Ted Cruz]

Well, that's exactly right. And one of the most important things for people to understand, it does not matter if there was a quid pro quo or not. It does not matter. It doesn't make a difference for the issues before the Senate. Something we talked about last week in our first couple of podcasts. Look, quid pro quo sounds scary. It's a Latin phrase. I don't know what it means, but it sounds really bad. All quid pro quo means is you exchange one thing for another. And this is not an exaggeration. Every president from George Washington to today has done quid pro quos by the hundreds, and foreign policy does it every single day. So whether or not it's a quid pro quo doesn't matter. The question is, did the president commit high Crimes and misdemeanors. And a quid pro quo is not. Whether it is or not is not the constitutional standard.

[Michael Knowles]

So then why is this such a big headline? Because that was my reaction, too. I said, hold on, I got to talk to the senator about this last week. I can see through the headline. Why is everybody making such a big deal about the John Bolton leak?

[Ted Cruz]

Well, look, part of it was that the defense team on Saturday had some fun pointing out that the evidence was contradictory, whether it was a quid pro quo or not. And so they leaned in a little bit, saying there wasn't clear evidence there was a quid pro quo. And so that let the New York Times say, goodness, now we have someone saying there was. It doesn't matter because, look, quid pro quos. Obama's Iran deal is a quid pro quo.

[Michael Knowles]

Right?

[Ted Cruz]

Russia sanctions. I just passed last month sanctions on the Nord Stream 2 Russian gas pipeline. If a company builds the pipeline, they get sanctioned. That's a quid pro quo. You build the pipeline, you get sanctioned.

[Michael Knowles]

You're admitting to a quid pro quo right now.

[Ted Cruz]

And Venezuela sanctions. We're telling Venezuela today that if Nicolas Maduro steps down from Venezuela, we'll lift sanctions. And we do, by the way, carrots and sticks all the time where we'll give you aid, we'll impose sanctions. That's how we conduct foreign policy.

[Michael Knowles]

So the Bolton leak, the quid pro quo news, that doesn't matter to the argument for impeachment itself. And yet surely it matters to the impeachment trial, because now we're hearing more reports that we could drag this thing out weeks and weeks and finally hear from the witnesses, which the Democrats have been asking for now for weeks.

[Ted Cruz]

So I think the chances of the Senate hearing witnesses and of the trial being dragged on, that those chances have increased. We will vote probably on Friday whether or not additional witnesses will be brought in. All 47 Democrats will vote yes if four Republicans join them. If 51 Republicans, if 51 senators vote yes, then we're going to have additional witnesses.

[Michael Knowles]

Do you think that those four Republican senators will go over and now vote for the witnesses?

[Ted Cruz]

You know, I'm not certain about that. I think there are a couple who have been pretty clear they will. I don't know if we get to four.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Ted Cruz]

And, you know, one of the striking things, I don't know that I have seen two Senate meals more different than lunch today and dinner today.

[Michael Knowles]

How so? What's the difference?

[Ted Cruz]

All right, so lunch today, everyone had just gotten back. They were There they, the press was all in a frenzy about John Bolton. We're talking about, oh, we gotta have witnesses, quid pro quo. Not sure what quid pro quo is. And then we had this afternoon where the Trump defense team finally got to put on their arguments and their evidence. And listen, as you know, I have been begging them, put on systematically, clearly the evidence of Burisma and Hunter Biden and Joe Biden, all of the evidence of corruption. That's what matters. The central question in this trial is whether a president can investigate corruption. And the answer to that is obviously, yes, if there are real, incredible allegations of corruption. With Hunter and Joe Biden and Burisma, there was enormous evidence of corruption. We finally heard that today. And by dinner time, the Republican senators were happy, relaxed. It was totally different because we'd just gone through several hours of the actual defense in the case, which finally got to be able to put on.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay, well, I want to get into those arguments then, because this was a pivotal day. We got a little preview of the Trump team's arguments on Saturday, but today was the first full day. Last week the Democrats make their arguments, and then this week, the Trump team gets to do it. It opened up with Ken Starr, who was the star of the Clinton impeachment trial back in the 90s. Then it went on to some of President, President Trump's other lawyers. Toward the end, you get Alan Dershowitz, very famous lawyer, a professor of yours, I believe you know him well.

[Ted Cruz]

Taught Me Criminal Law 101 My first week in law school. And I've known him 25, 30 years.

[Michael Knowles]

So I hate to put you on the spot, because, you know, one of the lawyers, you know, multiple lawyers who are arguing today. How did they do?

[Ted Cruz]

They did very well. This was a very good day for President Trump. This was a very bad day for the Democrats. And I gotta say, watching the Democrats at council table, when Pam Bondi got up, when.

[Michael Knowles]

So Pam Bondi is one of President Trump's lawyers, right?

[Ted Cruz]

And Eric Hirschman, who are two of the lawyers for President Trump, they both got up and they laid out the evidence of Burisma, the Ukrainian natural gas company that was built in corruption, that was paying Hunter Biden a million bucks a year. And they finally showed the tape of Joe Biden bragging about how you want to talk about quid pro quo. So on Donald Trump, the evidence is conflicting on whether there's a quid pro quo. There's some evidence that some testimony said there was, some testimony said there wasn't. Doesn't matter. Do you know the one undisputed quid pro quo in this, in this entire proceeding?

[Michael Knowles]

Joe Biden we saw on video.

[Ted Cruz]

Joe Biden on video said he told the President of Ukraine he would block a billion dollars in aid unless he fired the Ukrainian prosecutor who was investigating Burisma, which was paying his son Hunter Biden a million bucks a year. And as you know, Biden ends it with going, well son of a bitch, they fired him. That's a quid pro quo. And Biden not only admits to it, he brags about it, he's proud. And I gotta say, playing that, I think the Trump team did a good job laying it out. I think they walked through the evidence, but I spent a good chunk of it just watching the House managers faces. I gotta say, Adam Schiff was ashen. I mean really, their faces were horrified.

[Michael Knowles]

Because we couldn't see that. I certainly didn't see that on the Facebook.

[Ted Cruz]

So you would see him kind of try to smile and like puff up his chest and then it sort of slumped down. But the interesting thing is they knew this was coming. It's why several days ago I said the House managers threw Joe Biden under the bus. Because when they spent several hour hours of their presentation making the case that there is zero evidence to investigate Barisma or the Bidens for corruption, which is a laughable proposition, they knew to a metaphysical certainty that today would happen. In other words, they knew, they knew about the son of a bitch video. I mean, it's not like they're living in a cave, right?

[Michael Knowles]

And they set it up.

[Ted Cruz]

They teed up about the video we played last week on the podcast where ABC asked Hunter Biden, would you have gotten this job, you know, been paid a million bucks a year if your name wasn't Biden? He's like, no, I mean they knew that was coming, but it was still painful.

[Michael Knowles]

But did you know that the Trump team would be so aggressive? Because I, going into it I had this fear and we talked about it on the show, that the Trump team would play it cautious, play it safe, simply answer the Democrat accusations from last week and instead they got pretty aggressive.

[Ted Cruz]

Well, I think they heard from a lot of voices that they needed to affirmatively present the President's defense that the President is innocent and there's a reason he's innocent. It is perfectly okay. And in fact, the President's got a responsibility, if there's credible evidence of corruption, to investigate that evidence. Yeah. And you know, it was striking. You remember the first couple of days, Jerry Nadler, one of the House managers. He said, out of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian companies, why would Trump be interested in this one? And the screaming answer is, well, as far as I know, it's the only Ukrainian company that was paying the son of the vice president a million bucks a year. And the point is, it's not about some abstract interest in Ukrainian corruption. It's not like the president's worried about someone knocking off seven elevens in Ukraine.

[Michael Knowles]

Right.

[Ted Cruz]

This is about American corruption. This is about a prospect of a corrupt foreign company effectively bribing the Vice President of the United States. Now, that may not be the case. I'm not saying that happened, but there's more than enough evidence to investigate it and find out whether it did.

[Michael Knowles]

So you think that the Trump team did a good argument? Ken Starr, Alan Dershowitz, everybody in the middle. I actually think that the biggest fireworks of the day were not presented by the Trump legal team. I think they were presented by you when you were talking to the press. Because during one of these breaks, you had a press gaggle. You were answering their questions and speaking to them. You, you more than anybody that I've seen have been very aggressive on this, saying that this impeachment is about burisma. It's about corruption in Joe Biden, potential corruption by Joe Biden in the Obama administration. Go after that. I think you got under the press's skin so much that at one point, one of these reporters Suggested throwing your 9 year old daughter in jail. Do we have the clip? Basically, what they said was, Hunter Biden got a job, his valuable vice president. If that's a crime, I mean, shouldn't half of your children be in prison?

[Ted Cruz]

My, my children are 9 and 11. And I'm sorry that you want to throw a 9 year old in prison, but at this point, my, my third grader plays basketball and softball at her school, so. So stop playing the nasty. No, no, stop playing the nasty Washington game.

[Michael Knowles]

I'm sorry, that's not nasty Washington game.

[Ted Cruz]

Attacking a nine year old senator. I have no idea what.

[Michael Knowles]

You know, I love that you kept your cool there and you kind of laughed it off, but that is pretty deranged for a reporter to say they want to throw your kid in jail.

[Ted Cruz]

Well, you know, it shows the desperation of the press corps. So Trump has had a lot of consequences for America, many of which have been fantastically good in terms of policy, in terms of substance. One of which that has been also really, really good is exposing the rampant bias of the media.

[Michael Knowles]

Exactly.

[Ted Cruz]

And Donald Trump has broken the Media, their role right now is they're desperate to be the defenders of the Democrats. And so I had just finished standing up and saying today was devastating for the House managers and walking through a little bit of the evidence of corruption that was laid out. The media doesn't want to cover any of this. So what that guy was doing, I mean, he was trying to say, well, everybody does it. Come on, your kids do it. And they're desperately okay. So I got news for the media. No, everybody doesn't do this. I promise you, if there's anybody else in Washington that, that, that has a kid making a million bucks a year from a corrupt company that is getting favors from the Vice President of the United States, that ain't something everybody does. Like, look, I mean, it's, they're trying to cover it up as, oh, it's Uncle Joe. It's no big deal. This is bad, bad stuff. This stinks. You know, one of the things the Trump's defense team did today is they played from the ABC clip with Hunter Biden component. We still don't know, by the way, how much money Hunter Biden made.

[Michael Knowles]

Well, we know he was driving around Hollywood in a very expensive Porsche. So I think he did pretty well.

[Ted Cruz]

Well, and ABC asked him, so how much did this corrupt Ukrainian natural gas company pay you while your dad was vice president, and why, while he was leading UK Ukraine policy for the Obama administration. And he said, well, I'm not going to tell you. I don't have to be open kimono. Well, do you know that nobody knows how much he was paid? We know it was at least $83,000 a month, but he's never answered that. And the House managers have no desire to know the answer to that.

[Michael Knowles]

Well, what's so shocking to me about many of these interviews and that clip in particular, is the media have been going after not just you, but a lot of Republican senators. And, and they've been assailing you all for not being objective and completely without an interest in this impeachment trial because, you know, you're Republicans. Of course, an impeachment trial is different than other trials. Right. You're gonna have interests on both sides. The one group that is supposed to remain disinterested objective is the media. And then the moment you get over the target of what this impeachment is all about, they clearly lose their minds.

[Ted Cruz]

Well, you know, Judge Ken Starr started the argument today, and he did a very good of pointing out. So a lot of folks in the media like to say, oh, the senators are Jurors. That's not, in fact, right. And in the Clinton impeachment trial, a Democratic senator objected to senators being called jurors. And Chief Justice Rehnquist sustained the objection. Starb actually put it very well. The Senate is a court, which means the Senate, we're the judges, we're the jurors. We're deciding questions of law, in fact. And we're not supposed to be disconnected from the process. The framers knew what they were doing when they handed it to the upper chamber of Congress. But, you know, what we do need to do is keep the focus on the actual legal question, which is whether high crimes or misdemeanors were committed. And it's why? Look, the fundamental answer, the reason the House manager's case fails and the president will be acquitted, is because President. It's not an impeachable offense to investigate credible evidence of corruption. By the way, it would have been very different if Trump had said to Ukraine, hey, would you concoct some fake and bogus material on Joe Biden and fraudulently accuse him of something? Look, we'd have a totally different case there.

[Michael Knowles]

Right?

[Ted Cruz]

But that's not what he said. All of the evidence, 100% of it said, investigate what happened. This is bad. Biden bragged about getting the prosecutor fired. It is not an impeachable offense to investigate credible evidence of corruption. That's the issue that matters. And the press is going to try to change the subject. You know what? This, this, this Bolton bombshell today, it won't be the last bombshell. We'll see another one coming up later this week. And actually, a bunch of us on the Judiciary Committee who went through Kavanaugh. Yeah, we were saying we're kind of steeled to this because we saw, remember, day after day, there was another revelation. By the end of it, they had him in high school, like, drugging people and like, participating in, you know, all sorts. I mean, it got. Remember Michael Avenatti, Briefly. The media wanted him to be the Democratic nominee.

[Michael Knowles]

He was this lawyer who would go on cnn. This was during now Justice Kavanaugh's confirmation hearings to the Supreme Court. It was the timing of every big scandal bombshell. It seemed so perfectly coordinated. And that's what I mean, that is the big news of the day is this Bolton bombshell. I'm sure you're right. It won't be the last. But for those of us who don't know the inner machinations, how this was leaked, who leaked it, who's gonna leak the next one? I guess the question all of us have is, what happens next? Let's say that because of this bombshell from John Bolton, we now get witnesses and this trial drags on well past Saturday, maybe for weeks and weeks. What are we going to look forward to next?

[Ted Cruz]

So we don't know for sure. Tomorrow will be the last day of arguments, opening arguments for the Trump legal defense team. Okay, so they'll start tomorrow at 1:00. Go as long as they go. Then the next two days, we're going to have questions from senators. Eight hours a day for two days. We ask questions, but we don't get to ask them ourselves. We write them down and the Chief justice asks them for us. So I will say to the folks listening to this podcast, if you have questions that you want me to ask either the House managers or Trump's legal defense team, suggest them. You can tweet them. I'm Ted Cruz, and just put verdict. And we are looking at what's online on Twitter and looking for questions that will help focus on the issues that matter. After the questions are over, then at the end of the week, we're going to vote up or down our additional witnesses necessary. If we get 51 senators who say yes, then frankly, it's Katie, bar the door. If it ends up that there are four Republicans who join the Democrats and say, okay, we need to hear from John Bolton, I think that's possible. I will give you some good news if that happens. I'm extremely confident we will also hear from Hunter Biden.

[Michael Knowles]

So you don't think there's a world in which they vote for witnesses, but the only witness who is called is John Bolton?

[Ted Cruz]

Zero chance.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay?

[Ted Cruz]

Zero. And the Democrats terrified about that. You know, Chuck Schumer's like, no, no, no, we can't call Hunter Biden. You're seeing Democratic senators going, no, no, no, don't call Hunter Biden. Look, today's testimony revealed, if there's one witness that was called, it should be Hunter Biden, because he's right at the center. And remember, the issue is not Hunter Biden. I don't know the guy. It looks like he's led a pretty troubled life. The question is not even about whether. Whether he's involved in corruption. It's about whether his father, the vice president, who was making the Obama administration's policy and leading it, whether he was involved in corruption. And that's a question that goes right to the heart of Trump's asking it to be investigated. And I want to underscore a point we said last week because it. People may not have focused on its importance. And it's about to become very, very important. If we have witnesses, which is if Hunter Biden is called as a witness, if we subpoena Hunter Biden, he will almost certainly plead the fifth. He'll almost certainly come in and say, I refuse to answer questions on the.

[Michael Knowles]

Grounds of my Constitution.

[Ted Cruz]

He has a right under the Bill of Rights. He doesn't want to testify and admit to committing a crime. Here's a piece. Almost nobody knows. If he does that there is a statute that explicitly gives the Senate the power to give him testimonial immunity, which means he would be immune from being prosecuted for what he says in his testimony. Why does that matter? You may think, gosh, immunity sounds like a good thing for him. It's actually not. Because immunity means we can force him to testify because we want to get the evidence of what did your dad know? You know, one of the interesting things that we heard today. So Hunter Biden had two business partners. This guy, Devon Archer was also on the board of Burisma. And then John Kerry's son in law.

[Michael Knowles]

Hmm. What a coincidence.

[Ted Cruz]

Or not. Son in law. Stepson rather.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay.

[Ted Cruz]

And his stepson, when his two business partners joined the board, he sent an email to the State Department, to his stepfather's chief of staff, saying, devin and Hunter have joined the board of Burisma. I don't know why they did this, but I got nothing to do with it. And he broke off doing business with them because of their poor judgment in getting paid millions from this corrupt company.

[Michael Knowles]

You know, we actually got a mailbag question specifically about the ability of the Senate to force Hunter Biden to testify. And the question comes from Susan. If the Senate forces Hunter Biden to testify by granting him immunity, would he also receive immunity if he perjured himself during the testimony? So if he lies.

[Ted Cruz]

So immunity does not, does not immunize you from perjury and it doesn't immunize you from the underlying crimes, but it does, it does prevent any prosecutor from using your testimony as evidence against you.

[Michael Knowles]

Well, then there's a similar follow up question.

[Ted Cruz]

And by the way, the way the statute works is the Senate 51 senators vote to grant immunity. We then have to go to a federal district court and file that. But the district court has to grant it.

[Michael Knowles]

Right?

[Ted Cruz]

It's mandatory under the statute.

[Michael Knowles]

That I've seen that nowhere in the press, obviously. I think Hunter Biden's probably sweating about that. And the Democrats in the House are probably sweating More.

[Ted Cruz]

Joe Biden is sweating more. And by the way, I'll tell you, some of the happiest faces in that Senate were Bernie, Elizabeth Warren, and Klobuchar all running for President. I mean, they. This was a bad, bad day for the House Democrats case, but also for Joe Biden. This was, this was not pretty.

[Michael Knowles]

So let's say President Trump gets off the hook. He is not removed from office. Matthew asks, does the Fifth Amendment regarding double jeopardy attach? Should the Senate exonerate the president? Can the President be tried again for the same articles? I don't think we've ever seen that situation in history.

[Ted Cruz]

So impeachment and prosecution for a criminal offense are two different matters. So, yes, you can be tried separate. Now, you gotta prove a crime. You gotta prove beyond a reasonable doubt. And amazingly enough, the House managers haven't alleged a crime. It's one of the things, actually, Alan Dershowitz, Professor Dershowitz, at the end, did a really good job of walking through the constitutional history that you can't. High crimes or misdemeanors requires that you prove that the President has committed a crime on the order of treason or bribery, because that's what the Constitution said. And it was very interesting. Professor Dershowitz walked through a couple of other provisions of the Constitution which almost no one knows who's looked at this. So you know the impeachment clause, but there are two other places where impeachment is referenced in the Constitution beyond. Beyond the power of impeachment in the trial.

[Michael Knowles]

Because the impeachment clause is just saying that the Congress has the power to impeach the President and the Senate will conduct the trial.

[Ted Cruz]

And actually, the Constitution uses the word sole twice. It says the House has the sole power of impeachment and the Senate has the sole power to try impeachment. So the only times the word sole is used in the Constitution concerns impeachment. But there are two other references. Number one in Article two concerns the Presidency. It gives the President the power to grant pardons and reprieves for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment. So the President can't pardon impeachment. But it also says offenses against the United States, which are crimes in Article 3 of the Constitution, which concerns the judiciary. The Constitution says trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment shall be by jury. Now, what does that imply? Impeachment are crimes. And so the House Democrats have admitted they aren't alleging a crime.

[Michael Knowles]

So this is a unique historical situation in as much as we have the impeachment going on. But, but when the Congress impeached the president, they did not accuse him of a crime. So are you saying we're just in uncharted territory?

[Ted Cruz]

We are. It has never happened in history that a president has been impeached without the articles alleging he's committed a crime. And actually something Ken Starr said that was really powerful. We have never before in history seen a president impeached on a pure partisan vote. Only Democrats voted for it. And Ken Starr made a great point. You know, the Constitution requires for conviction to remove a president two thirds of the Senate. Impeachment was supposed to be a consensus, a national consensus, that this crosses a high threshold. There ain't that consensus. And so fighting this is just a partisan battle. The way the Democrats are doing is wrong.

[Michael Knowles]

You know, the conclusion I draw from all of this is one of anxiety because we are in uncharted territory here. I think it's going to make the question time on Thursday so important. So please to all of our listeners, get your questions in, tweet them, TedCruz, use the hashtag verdict. And we will try to get those questions asked during the impeachment trial. Then you can come back here afterwards. You know, this is an early night, it's not even midnight yet. You've made it over from the Capitol and we will go through all of it then. Thank you.

[Ted Cruz]

Two things I want to follow up on quickly because I have been given an assignment. Okay, so last week, you'll recall I mentioned that I brought up with Caroline, my 11 year old daughter, when we had risen to the number three podcast in the country. I called her and told her and she said, dad, I really don't care. So I got home Saturday night, Sunday, yesterday, I was home and I told Caroline, you know, we rose from number three all the way to number one. And look, I thought that was kind of impressed now or you know, you know, trying to like, you know, get my daughter to think that's cool. And she said, I know. And you passed Joe Rogan. And she said, and Joe Rogan interviewed Robert Downey Jr. And that's the coolest thing in the world. Caroline is, is like obsessed with Iron man and she's like, if he interviewed Robert Downey Jr. I don't know how you passed him, dad. I don't know how that happened, but that's really cool.

[Michael Knowles]

That's six degrees of Kevin Bacon.

[Ted Cruz]

And I gotta say, for any dad of an 11 year old, it is really hard to like impress an 11 year old with anything. So I thought it was very cool that passing Joe Rogan did it with Caroline Cruz and that that made me pretty happy.

[Michael Knowles]

And there's a coincidence we past Joe Rogan's show with this show Verdict with Ted Cruz, just about a day or two after Joe endorsed Bernie Sanders. Is that a coincidence?

[Ted Cruz]

Look, I think it's, it's cause and effect. But let me say to everyone listening, if you haven't subscribed and signed up for this podcast going forward, please do, because this we're having fun.

[Michael Knowles]

We really appreciate it. And it looks like with everything in uncertainty, I'll probably be stuck in D.C. for quite a while now. So be sure to tune back. I'm Michael Knowles. This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

[C]

This episode of Verdict with Ted Cruz is being brought to you by Jobs, Freedom and Security pac, a political action committee dedicated to supporting conservative causes, organizations, and candidates across the country. In 2022, jobs, freedom and Security PAC plans to donate to conservative candidates running for Congress and help the Republican Party across nation.