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- [00:01]
Ben Ferguson
Welcome. It is Verdict with Senator Ted Cruz. Ben Ferguson with you. Senator, what a way to go back to Washington to bring people up to date on what's happened. 20 House Republicans have voted for someone other than Kevin McCarthy. There were multiple votes that were held. They've decided to basically end it until noon on Wednesday. Some people said, well, that's just because there's a lot of family members in town. I think the world was spinning for Kevin McCarthy. You're there in Washington. I think everybody in politics is surprised by how this played out so far.
- [00:37]
Senator Ted Cruz
Well, it's a big deal what's happening. It's the first time in 100 years that the House speaker vote went to multiple ballots. And right now the House is in recess until noon on Wednesday and noon on Wednesday. We'll find out what happens next. There were three rounds of balloting, and on each of the three, Nobody had the 218 votes needed to win the speakership. And so this battle, this battle is waging. You and I are recording this on Tuesday evening after the House is adjourned, but before they've gathered in the morning. I am confident there are multiple furious conversations ongoing right now all across Washington. Conversations between Kevin McCarthy and his allies, conversations between the rebels who are opposing McCarthy, and they're likely are negotiations going on right now. But we won't know, at least until tomorrow what happens. And it's not going to be dull.
- [01:47]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah, it's not going to be dull. Let's talk about the history of this. There are people, and this is even on the Democrat side, that say, hey, we don't like this type of precedent because then what you could end up happening in the future is when you have tight elections like we just had in November. If, if certain people in either side of the aisle refused to kind of, you know, coalesce behind their team, then you could always be holding good people hostage. That's how this is kind of played out on tv. There have been, others have said this has just become too personal with three or four or five different members of Congress and Kevin McCarthy where it really isn't about the country. It's more of a personal issue. I think this is a, is a very unique moment where you see 20 people say, all right, maybe we go with a Jim Jordan. We've heard people talk about Steve Scalise. Does that really change anything? And if you're a member of Congress right now, especially a new member of Congress, how confused are you by all of this on your first day?
- [02:49]
Senator Ted Cruz
Well, let me say several things. First of all, I'm staying out of the speaker fight in the House. I've got plenty of fights over on the other side of the Capitol in the Senate. We are in the middle of big, big battles in the Senate. And so I am watching with considerable interest, but not engaging in the middle of their leadership fight. That being said, I'll make several observations. Number one, a big part of the reason this is playing out is because the election was disappointing. The election. We did a lot less Republicans did a lot less in the election than we should have. We should have a majority in the Senate, we should have a big majority in the House. If we'd come out of the election and it was a 30, 35 vote Republican majority in the House, I doubt this fight would be playing out at that level. I think Kevin McCarthy would have had pretty easily the votes to be elected Speaker. And if you win a big victory, that is typically the result. What is driving this is it was instead a very frustrating election where we didn't win a majority in the Senate. In fact, we lost a seat in the Senate, which is beyond infuriating. And in the House, the Republicans have a majority, so that's good. But it's the narrowest majority imaginable. It is a four vote majority. Now, I'll say for any speaker, being speaker of a House with a four vote majority is an absolute mess. Because you're right, when you have a tiny majority, all sorts of groups of members are incentivized to hold out for what they want. And that's true from conservatives, from moderates, from liberals across the spectrum. I think it's also more true on the Republican side. On the Democrat side, Nancy Pelosi had a very small majority. But the Democrats are command and control. The Democrats are authoritarian. The Democrats follow orders. It's a strength of theirs and it's a weakness of theirs. On the Republican side, a strength and weakness we have as Republicans is we're a bunch of individualists. We're all over the map. That's true in the Senate and it's true in the House. And so what's playing out here and significant part is playing out because the majority is so narrow and what it led to. Look, you and I, Ben, have talked on this podcast about the leadership battles in the Senate. And I led the fight in the leadership battles of the Senate to reevaluate what our leadership was doing. And in particular, I was the one that made the motion to delay leadership elections until after the Georgia runoff. To delay them and to have A real debate about how Republicans should lead. And I ended up getting 11 votes that. Well, getting 16 votes in favor of delaying the election. And then ultimately there. There were 11 votes cast either against Mitch McConnell or. Or one senator who we don't know who voted present. That was a big deal. We needed 25 to have delayed the elections. We got within 9 of that happening. That's the first leadership battle in the Senate we've had in the decade I've served in the Senate. Every other time Mitch McConnell's been elected by acclamation. The same forces that drove that leadership battle in the Senate are driving the leadership battle in the House. But why is the result playing out differently? And there's a very important structural difference between the Senate and the House, which is why you're getting a lot more drama on the House side. In the Senate, the Senate Republican leader is elected only by Republicans. In other words, it was the vote of what was then 50 of us. And so Mitch, to remain Senate Republican leader, had had to win 26 of those 50. He had those votes pretty solidly in his pocket. In the House last month, the House Republicans got together, and Kevin McCarthy won a sizable majority of House Republicans. But the way the House operates is different, because the very first thing after the new members are sworn in that happens in the House is you have, what we're seeing right now, a vote on the floor of the House to elect the Speaker. And it's not just a vote of Republicans. If this was a vote of only Republicans, Kevin McCarthy would have won handily like he did last month. This is a vote of every House member. And to be speaker, you need a majority of the members who are present in voting. So there are 435 members of the House. One. One member, a Democratic member, passed away. So there are only 434 members right now. That means you need 218. What happened on the first ballot? Andy Biggs from Arizona, conservative, good friend of mine. Andy ran against Kevin McCarthy, and it ended up that there were 19 votes cast against Kevin McCarthy. Mind you, five was sufficient. He could only lose four. Well, the second ballot, instead of Andy Biggs being the lead opposition player, it was Jim Jordan. And this time, there were 19 votes for Jim Jordan. Now, there is some irony in this, and that Jim Jordan is, at least at present, vocally supporting Kevin McCarthy to be speaker.
- [08:38]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah, he actually told one member that voted for him, like, I don't want this job. And they said, tough luck. Basically, we're going to nominate you and vote for you anyway.
- [08:47]
Senator Ted Cruz
Well, and it's even more than that. Jim Jordan on the second ballot had literally stood up and nominated Kevin McCarthy. So he was nominating Kevin McCarthy and in turn Matt Gaetz got up and nominated Jim Jordan. And 19 Republicans voted for Jim Jordan. Then the third ballot, Chip Roy nominated Jim Jordan. Chip Roy is my former chief of staff. He's a strong conservative, he's a very dear friend. Chip Roy gave a passion speech for Jim Jordan and what happened next was significant. Look, in these battles, momentum matters. And so everyone is watching, okay, are the vote totals going up or going down? And on the third ballot McCarthy's numbers went down and in particular Jim Jordan, Instead of getting 19, which is what he got on the second ballot, Jordan got 20. And, and, and, and the, the vote that flipped was Byron Donalds who is a second term House member from Florida. He's African American, he's a good, principled, very well liked member. There were gasps on the floor of the House when, when Byron shifted his vote. That dynamic I think played a real part in the decision to say, okay, let's suspend everything till noon tomorrow.
- [10:24]
Ben Ferguson
When you look at that suspension and before we actually, before I even ask you that, I want to go back to, to Chip Roy and what he said was something that I think was very interesting because I was watching this on all the channels when it was happening and even CNN said, okay, Chip has a point he's making here. He wasn't opposing Kevin McCarthy as much as he was advocating for actually debating amendments and having transparency in government from the floor of the House. And even the panel said there's a lot of Americans are going to watch Chip Roy maybe for the first time ever that are going to look at this and say, you know what, what he's saying right now actually makes some pretty good sense. Just take a listen if you miss this America. This is what he had to say from the four of the House.
- [11:15]
Chip Roy
So this is what the chamber looks like when we're actually debating and the bodies are in the chairs. How many times have we been down here giving speeches and there's not a soul in the chamber yet? This is what it takes to get 435 people in the chamber and have an actual debate. The American people are watching and that's a good thing. What we're doing is exercising our rights to vote and have a debate and have a discussion about the future of this country through the decision of choosing a speaker. This is not personal. It's not. This is about the future of the country. This is about the direction of the country. American people who are looking at this body and wondering why we can pass 1.7 trillion dollar bills that are unpaid for. They can just slide in $45 billion for Ukraine but not pay for it. $40 billion for emergency spending and not pay for it. 10% increase in defense spending, 6% increase in non defense spending spending and not pay for it. And not do a thing except put language in a bill that prohibits our ability to use the money to secure the border. That bill gets rammed through, and we know exactly how it gets rammed through because the defense world and the non defense world come together and say, you know what? We're going to cut a deal and we'll all go to the mics and we'll all go give speeches and the American people are the big losers. That's what happens. We know that's what happens. The rules committee sits up there and passes a bill, sends it to the floor, and we have no debate on the floor of this body. We haven't been able to offer an amendment on the floor of this body since May of 2016. The former leader and I have discussed this right here. That's true. But the fact is this place has to change. It has to change. And the change comes by either adopting rules and procedures that will make us actually do our job, or it comes from leadership. And people ask me, what do you want? I want the tools or I want the leadership to stop the swamp from running over the average American. And every single day, I mean, Senator.
- [13:40]
Ben Ferguson
When you hear that, as he said, this is not about the speaker as in the person's name. This is about rules and procedure. I understand now why Chip was your chief of staff and why you like him so much. Because for many Americans, whether you are Republican or Democrat, you hear what he just said and it makes a lot of sense.
- [13:58]
Senator Ted Cruz
Yeah. Look, Chip is very smart, he's very principled. As you noted, when I was newly elected, he was my very first chief of staff. So I had been in a lot of foxholes by side with Chip. And he is absolutely right that having this debate about what Republicans will stand for is important. Irrespective of a speaker election. It's important to say, how are we going to operate and lead? Because I believe one of the reasons we didn't have the kind of election that you and I wanted us to have in November is that Republican leadership was not leading boldly and drawing a clear contrast. And I focused my time and attention on the Senate. That's obviously the body in which I serve. And on trying to press Mitch McConnell to stand up and be willing to fight. I think Chip is exactly right that this omnibus was an absolute monstrosity. It was a disgraceful bill. Now, here's one of the weird dynamics. Mitch McConnell was urging Republicans to support the $1.7 trillion omnibus because he said it would help Kevin McCarthy. Kevin McCarthy was publicly urging Republicans in the Senate to vote against the omnibus. He said, it will hurt me, hurt Kevin McCarthy. That dynamic playing out is ongoing. And you know Chip's point about we're actually sitting in the chamber talking to each other. That happens so rarely in either House that. That. That having a debate about, okay, we shouldn't fight on everything, always, that doesn't make any sense, but we should have a strategy to pick issues that matter and stand and fight for them and deliver for the American people. Now, Chip has been leading the insurgents in the House, and the main thing he has been pressing for is something that is called the motion to vacate, which it used to be that any individual member could stand up in the House and file a motion to vacate the chair and you could force another vote, like the vote we're having right now. You could force at any time. That meant that the given speaker, at any given point, had to be able to hold 218 votes. That makes the job of speaker significantly more perilous. It is the tool that was used to topple John Boehner, who I think was truly an abysmal speaker. Nancy Pelosi changed those rules, and she changed those rules to prevent an individual member from filing a motion to vacate. Why? Because she didn't want to get toppled. She didn't want any rebels to be empowered. And so what those who are opposing McCarthy are pressing for is a procedural step that an individual House member can file a motion to vacate. Why are they pressing for it? Well, the argument they give is that it then gives a check on leadership. McCarthy, at least so far, has been unwilling to agree to that. He's publicly agreed to allowing a motion to vacate that five members support, but not that an individual member support. Right now, I think there are a number of things that are going on. Number one, it is entirely possible, and I will say I have zero inside knowledge on this piece, but it's entirely possible that McCarthy's team is negotiating with the ringleaders of the opposition, and perhaps they make concessions on the procedural grounds sufficient to get their support. That's one outcome we could see at noon on Wednesday. Another outcome is, you could see growing support behind Jim Jordan. I don't know if that will happen or not. As I said, Byron Donald's vote was significant. A third outcome is. You could see a potential third candidate. Uh, you could see someone else. Steve Scalise, who's the number two behind Kevin McCarthy, has been discussed as that. Now Steve nominated Kevin McCarthy. Steve is publicly and vocally supporting McCarthy. But in chaos, all sorts of strange things happen. A fourth outcome that would be a terrible outcome is it is possible some of the more moderate or liberal Republicans could team up with Democrats and we could end up with a speaker that's a true train wreck. That that is either an extremely liberal Republican or God forbid, a Democrat. Now, I think the chances of a Democrat speaker coming out of this chaos are very, very low. I don't know that they're zero, but they're very, very low. But a disastrously left wing Republican speaker is a possibility. I don't think that will happen. But in a world of chaos, all sorts of things can happen. And so those negotiations, I think are happening all across D.C. right now. I think we'll end up with a resolution and we'll end up with a resolution that will either be a negotiated solution or a consensus candidate somehow emerges. At this point, I have no idea.
- [19:35]
Ben Ferguson
All right, let me ask you this before we wrap this up because obviously there's a lot that we don't know, but there is the optics of this. The media is playing this, Senator. The headlines are everywhere right now. You can see it all over the country. The establishment media is saying the Republicans are in chaos. This is anarchy. This is making the squad look normal, as one headline puts it, referring to the AOC and the crazies on the left. Making them look rational is another way it was put a moment ago on tv. I don't believe this is catastrophically negative in any way for the Republicans. I think a grand debate is not a bad thing. Do you see this as some massive debacle taking place? Or is that just the media doing what the media does, saying let's seize on this moment, look like this is insanity, when really this isn't. This is just watching the sausage be made.
- [20:30]
Senator Ted Cruz
Look, the media are left wing propagandists. They hate having a debate about Republicans leading, about Republicans being conservative. The media are apoplectic about it. By the way, one of the reasons Nancy Pelosi didn't face this kind of challenge is she just gave in to the radicals. AOC was basically the speaker last term on every radical left wing issue. Nancy Pelosi just said, yes, yes, yes, you can have it. Impeach the president. Okay, yes, do it again. Yes, yes. Everything you want. Yes. Yeah. I mean, and they all just followed the extreme left. That. That's the difference. The Democrats the last two years ran hard, hard left, and they had unity. Running hard, hard left. The reason there's disagreement among Republicans is, is there are some Republicans that want to be strong conservatives. There's others who disagree with that, and you end up with something like the $1.7 trillion omnibus in the Senate, what was it? All the Democrats and a handful of Republicans. You see that pattern over and over and over again. I will say one of the complicated pieces of this also is Donald Trump. So Trump likes Kevin McCarthy. They are friends. In fact, Trump, with some regularity, refers to Kevin McCarthy as my Kevin. And they just, on a personal level, get along. Well. I get that. I like Kevin McCarthy personally. He's a very affable guy. He's difficult to dislike. On the one, on one basis, Trump has been vocally supporting McCarthy. Um, not long ago, an NBC reporter tweeted out exclusive. Former President Trump declined to say if he's sticking by his endorsement of Kevin McCarthy for speaker tonight, telling me in a brief phone interview, he's had calls all day asking for support and, quote, we'll see what happens. We'll see how it all works out. That's a potential big deal. Depending on what Trump does in the next 24 hours, if he continues to support Kevin, that's one outcome. If he decides to withdraw his support or support another candidate, that could change the dynamic very significantly.
- [22:48]
Ben Ferguson
Well, and that tweet that you just mentioned, to talk about the five that started this, Congressman Gates immediately tweeted that out, saying, you know, and quoting it, and then said, Trump knows McCarthy can't get there. So he sees that moment to say, aha, see, I'm winning here because Donald Trump didn't come out tonight and say, I still stand behind Kevin McCarthy.
- [23:10]
Senator Ted Cruz
Well, and unfortunately, you're also seeing divisions within. Within the House that are getting pretty tense. You know, Marjorie Taylor Greene went out and blasted Chip Roy and blasted Matt Gaetz because she's supporting Kevin McCarthy. And so she had some very angry things to say. There are all sorts of strange dynamics. Look, one of the things that drove it, as I understand it, is the House Republican Conference met today, and I wasn't in the room. I'm not in the House. But from the public reports, leadership came out really strong and aggressive. Indeed, anonymous quotes supporting leadership were saying, that McCarthy, quote, they'd never seen anyone taken to the woodshed as much as Kevin Kennedy took the rebels to the woodshed. And in particular, it's been reported that Mike Rogers stood up and threatened Republicans who didn't vote for Kevin would lose their committee assignments, that they would be punished and stripped off of committees. And that Chip Roy has been very vocal that that pissed him off. And that threat, if anything, drove the numbers the other way. And I could see that sometimes leadership gets punitive. And you know what, if you've got a 30 vote, majority leadership can be punitive. If you've got a four vote majority.
- [24:53]
Ben Ferguson
You might not want to play that card.
- [24:56]
Senator Ted Cruz
It's pretty dangerous to make threats because it can end up making those who disagree with you dig in. And, and, and that may be playing out there as well.
- [25:08]
Ben Ferguson
It's going to be very interesting how this ends up. What a way to go back to, to Washington for a new Congress. I still agree with you and what you said a moment ago, this is just going to be entertaining to watch. I do not believe this is, quote, hurting the Republican Party or some sort of horrible debacle that will never, you know, will never be able to overcome. I just don't buy those liberal headlines from the lefties over the next 1012 hours. Senator, it's good to get back in a rhythm with you. I know you're excited.
- [25:39]
Senator Ted Cruz
Let me say one more thing as we wrap up.
- [25:41]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah.
- [25:43]
Senator Ted Cruz
Which is something else happened today that I thought was actually quite shocking. And it was on the Senate side. So on the Senate side, the new senators were sworn in. That always happens, that swearing in happens on the floor of the Senate and the Vice President, who's the President of the Senate, swears them in. And then afterwards you go to the historic Senate chamber and you do a reenactment of the swearing in. And the reason you do that is because family members are not allowed on the floor of the Senate. So when you're actually getting sworn in, your wife can't be there, your husband, your kids, your parents. And so what has always happened, certainly for as long as I'm aware of it, is after the official swearing in, you go to the historic chamber and the Vice President will swear you in. And you know, in my case, when I was sworn in 10 years ago, Heidi holds the Bible and your kids are there, your parents are there, your family's there. And it's, look, it's a great, like, it's, it's a big exciting thing when you're being sworn into The Senate. It's nice to be with your family and celebrate it. Well, something an historic first occurred, which is Kamala Harris's office put out a notification to. To the senators being sworn in that anyone attending the. The. The swearing in reenactment must have a negative COVID test within 24 hours performed by a capital physician or you wouldn't be allowed in. This was true for anyone over two years of age.
- [27:11]
Ben Ferguson
Wow.
- [27:12]
Senator Ted Cruz
And I gotta say, look, the vice president, particularly in a 5149 Senate, has almost zero responsibilities. You know, the old famous quote from John Nance Gardner is the vice president presidency isn't worth a bucket of warm spit. About the only thing the vice president does is square in the new senators, you break a tie. But in a 5149 Senate, there are going to be a lot fewer ties. And so Kamala is literally saying, I'm not going to do my damn job. And it was astonishing and I have to admit offensive and it pissed me off. And I'm going to give a shout out to one of the new senators, Mark Wayne Mullen, who's a new Republican from Oklahoma who decided he and his family, screw you, we're not going to do it. He put out a quote that says Covid just exists for those who are in the bubble and that his family has things to do back in Oklahoma, such as going to a school and wrestling tournament. The senator said he didn't want a false positive on a COVID test unnecessarily complicate things when going back to Oklahoma. And quote, I really don't care about a picture with Kamala Harris. He added, now it's time for you.
- [28:33]
Ben Ferguson
To take him to dinner. Right. This isn't. This could be your new best friend.
- [28:36]
Senator Ted Cruz
Look good for him for standing up, but I gotta say like that the absolute dripping arrogance and condescension of I will not allow you to be in the room with me unless you take a COVID test and I won't do my job as a result. I've never seen anything like it. And including if you're 2 years old in the White House.
- [29:02]
Ben Ferguson
Right.
- [29:03]
Senator Ted Cruz
Relationships between the White House and the Senate were already not very good. And this, that was just. Marie Antoinette would be proud of Kamala's performance today.
- [29:17]
Ben Ferguson
You can't make it up, Senator. It's going to be a very, very interesting year in Washington. We'll keep you all updated on it. We'll have the latest on what happens with the speakers vote. We can promise you that. Again, great to be back with you in the New Year, sir. I know you had a nice little vacation with your family as well. And we'll be back with all you guys that are listening right now in just a couple of days.