B (4:45)

All right.

A (4:46)

Pavement, our second record. We always keep getting cool people for it and today, no different, the basis for whole Smashing Pumpkins. Melissa Offdemar. I can't tell you, like, how cool she was and how nervous I was. And she made it really easy. She really did. This was a fun one. Melissa has a brand new book. It hasn't come out yet, but we are going to promote the shit out of it when we get closer. It's called Even the Good Girls Will Cry, a 90s rock memoir. It talks about her life before Hole, joining hole after hole, Smashing Pumpkins, doing her solo records. We talk a lot about the stories and stuff on the podcast today. So if it's anything like that, you're going to dig this book and we're going to promote it hard. It comes out in 2026, but either way, we can't thank her enough for for coming on the podcast. Rate, review and most importantly, subscribe to the 500 listen free on all platforms or any way you get your pods. Follow me at Josh Adam Myers on all social media. Follow the podcast at the 500 podcast. Email the podcast@500podcastmail.com follow the Facebook group and for all things 500, go to the website, the 500podcast.com. All right, guys, here we go. 135 pavements, slanted and enchanted. Please tell me you just got. We got the. We got the AI RoboCop thing, because that's the perfect way to. I'm always like, how do you start this? And you're like, the world will come to an end because Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg.

B (6:10)

No tech groups.

A (6:12)

We'll be fine.

B (6:12)

No, it's more that I don't. I mean, we know that they all use it to their advantage at some point. And if you're not a human that just wants to shed love and light and music and story and joy on the planet, but you're actually somebody who wants to control the narratives and make money off of others, you're fucked. You know, we are fucked. I am here to spread joy and be, like, in love with just being a soul embodied in this brief body.

A (6:37)

Like, that's in this bag of bones. We get a short time, we might as well enjoy it.

B (6:40)

And I love it, but I don't trust the intentions of those who try to control it all. Oh, it's the problem. We know. What are we talking about? It's the worst.

A (6:49)

No, but this is. No, no, no, no, no. Because this is a good spin to then spin it back to why we do. Why I've done this podcast, you know, like, my favorite. My favorite joke is this Norm MacDonald joke where he goes, somebody says, frank killed himself. And I can't believe, like, why would he do that? And Norm's like, you don't know why? He's like, do you live in, like a cotton candy castle? You know? You know, you haven't dealt with the tragedies of life, which just is a series of catastrophes, and that it always ends horribly. And it's like, yeah, but then you have these beautiful things like music and art and an album or something. These moments that, you know, with, you know, the things that in all of these horrible things that we experience in life, so much beauty has come out of that something. Like even the stuff that you've worked on, some of your solo stuff, you know.

B (7:38)

Thank you.

A (7:39)

No, but you know what I mean, it's like you.

B (7:41)

But it's more than as a mother of a 14 year old and how people are being wired and perceived. Even when, like, this became a way for me to listen to music, I'm like, oh, great, I'm not going to know how to find music anymore. It's about the process in which we find joy and connect with others. If all I want to do is have sacred connection with humans through all of these cool things. You're talking about music, art, the medium in which we share it and the way in which our brain receives it. If we. We all know now that, like, typing versus writing is a different way of processing your feelings and sharing, like, translating your feelings. And we all know that. I love you. I love you. Relationships building over this screen do not have the same oxytocin, et cetera, that even the phone, let alone the bar next door, let alone the. The alleyway. So if we are losing the conn tissue of how we transmit these things, we are rewiring the way humans receive the beauty and the light. That is my concern. Not to mention the tech creeps that are going to use it to control people. And those people will not be as thoroughly feeling because they will have been receiving on a surface level. That is my concern. We are losing a connection to our soul. Just like we all know they are mining for our soul and our taste and our love and our joy. And as we use those things, they're also removing parts of our soul. They're literally sucking it out.

A (9:02)

Oh, yeah.

B (9:02)

So what do we. That's a concern to me.

A (9:04)

You know what? Not to mention now, now I'm happy that you drove down here from upstate New York. We didn't do this on streamyard because this would have the connection here. This means so much more to the fans and. Oh, dude, this is great. This is so great.

B (9:18)

Let's rewind to 1992, but let's take.

A (9:21)

It even back before that because, like. Because I, like, first of all, I want to congratulate you on your book coming out in March. Are you excited?

B (9:28)

I am very excited. We're announcing tomorrow in terms of, like, to the public. I've been working on it for years, obviously, but we announce it tomorrow and I am very excited primarily because. Imagine therapy, psychedelics times 10,000. Writing your origin story in memoir. So it was one of the most healing and labor intensive, emotional, intellectual things I've ever done. You know, albums and music and visuals and art and all the other things. I do use a very different part of me and this. I went out to reflect and heal parts of my life and my story, and it worked. And I'm mostly incredibly transformed by the process of writing it. Now I get to go into that magic thing where you give it to the people and how do the people get transformed or how do they respond? So yeah, I'm excited about the exchange because I've been on maternity leave for about 15 years, so I'm also.

A (10:25)

Yeah, I saw that. I saw that. It was like, you. You were a rock star for years, and then you. When you and your husband decided to have the baby, you were like, I'm a mom now.

B (10:34)

Oh, yeah. Well, mainly I had never lived in one house for more than six months since I was 16 and I was 40 years old. So I had only been a nomad traveling, and I knew that I didn't want to be a traveling mother. I also had the luxury of touring for 20, whatever years.

A (10:53)

So you stack some cash.

B (10:55)

Well, I also just had seen the world, and I'm like, what is it like to be in the same house?

A (10:59)

Where did you. Where did you set your.

B (11:01)

We are in Hudson, New York.

A (11:02)

So that's where you guys.

B (11:03)

We've been there. Yeah.

A (11:04)

Weren't you in LA and then when you got pregnant and then you moved out or not?

B (11:07)

No, I lived between LA and New York. And then I tried to move back to Canada during the Bush years, during the Iraq thing, and then I just got. I fell in love with a New Yorker. And I came back, but I was like. But not New York City. Like, what's the option then? Cause I had never really been in between the major cities in the world. I traveled every major city in most continents. And on one of our first dates, my New Yorker boyfriend and Montreal girl met in between in upstate New York and at that remarkable Hudson Valley area with these, like, insane Renaissance skies and rivers and Catskill mountains. And it's hit on such a fundamental level that I had never been anywhere in between. By moving to Hudson, New York, I fell in love with America. As a Canadian living in conflict in America my whole life, my mother's an expat. I was raised with a very radical. My parents are socialists who are basically like, by the way, that system's not gonna work. If you don't feed your people and take care of them with education and medical attention, they will break. And then if you let the corporate people have all the power, it will break. And I was indoctrinated as a child understanding that. So I always lived here. Much to my friends in the 90s who were still living in a bubble of, we are America. Everything's amazing. I'm like, oh, fuck, no. You don't get anything for your taxes. What are you talking about? So I was always skeptical with my picket sign. Now I don't have to pick it anymore because Apparently I was right. But that's upstate New York was the geographical in between for two people who fell in love. But it was also a way for me to fall in love with America and do unfinished business. And my mother, who Left in the 60s, she was from Boston.

A (12:52)

Yeah.

B (12:53)

And she, like, did not fit in. She was like, you know, it was all about everything for her between the race and equality and Vietnam War. She was like, get me out of here. So she found Montreal and raised me a real montrealer and. And a real international person. All about international. I grew up on like the nme. I didn't grow up on like mtv. So I was much more, you know, looking out into the world like a lot of other countries do. Whereas of course the us, which is what makes it amazing and annoying, is they only look at themselves and look inside themselves. But unavoidably, America had the best rock music happening at the time of my youth.

A (13:29)

I mean, you're not lying, dude. You are not lying.

B (13:32)

I was attracted and I was given a once in a lifetime opportunity. But upstate New York is where we live and we. The moment I got pregnant, we bought an 1880s factory to start an art center. So from the middle, I was gonna be landlocked in one house and in one neighborhood. I'm like, well, I better make the neighborhood.

A (13:51)

Yeah, make it cool, dude. Yeah. Oh, man.

B (13:53)

And bring all this stuff that I love from around the world to my backyard.

A (13:56)

Should we do a rummage sale again? Another rummage sale, dude. We're doing rummage sales.

B (14:03)

Flea markets. I do have music festivals. I mean, I've been like working nonstop. I also felt like having been given this crazy opportunity at 22 when I joined Hole, that I just. I wanted to give back to alternative culture. So we founded Basilica Hudson In 2010, when I thought a decade away from the 90s that we were in desperate. Like, if we don't hold onto the magic of the 90s, we're gonna be so screwed. So I. Even in 2002, I had little signs, leave your phones at home. Like I was trying to resurrect the magic of the 90s. 15 years ago. Who knew what we would actually need to do now? So this year is our 15 year anniversary and we do a couple annual music festivals. Basilica soundscape, 24 hour drone experiments in sound and music. We have farm and flea markets, vintage markets. We have contemporary dance, we have like.

A (14:55)

All kinds of installations. Lots of goodies. Free dance.

B (15:00)

Yes.

A (15:00)

Oh, I can imagine.

B (15:02)

So I've been doing that. And that was an amazing way for me to be home, to build a little corner of the universe that I could kind of believe in and then also be able to give back to up and coming counterculture, emerging artists and weirdos. Like, I want it. You know, I've been so lucky. So I just wanted to give back. And then in terms of my comeback in 2026 and my memoir, it really is because my daughter just turned 14. I see the way the world is. I'm not. I'm a futurist and a lover of life. So I'm not saying doomsday, but yes, there are doomsday components.

A (15:40)

We're not in the right direction.

B (15:41)

And yeah, and people were losing track, you know, and this is when, like people of our generation, Gen X has a responsibility to not only get people psyched about what we had, that might, maybe we could bring back a bit, maybe, maybe you kids would actually like zine or whatever it's gonna be. We gotta bring the magic back. But we also have to take responsibility for what we witnessed. And as you know, we know we were all not okay with even how shit was going in the 90s. You know, we were like the corporate sellout, you know, freak out that was happening was real. We were mined, we were treat. We were basically souls of creative freaks were turned into like Coca Cola cans. And we watched it all happen. And that was not cool with us. We were not happy, you know. And then the digital things started coming in and what the record labels now have this different contract. You're still taking all the same percentages, but you don't even have to make a record. Are you evil?

A (16:31)

Yeah, it's so good.

B (16:32)

So, you know, just watching that, it's our responsibility to say, hey, we witnessed that. We saw what happened and it was not cool. And we never bent down and you know, we were resisting the whole time. There was much more of a resistance. Now everybody's just like shilling for corporations. This is what we do. We're all like, it's crazy. Well, I mean, autonomy is. Sovereignty of soul and self is very important. And here we are all entangled with these creepy things. I have a phone. I do it. I understand all these conveniences, but it is my job now with this book to reflect on, on the things that made me happy, excited, and have deep life connections with my peers and with my moment. My generation, every generation has a movement of some sort. All of the big bands that came from it. And there was obviously a zeitgeist moment with Kurt. So obviously that not every generation has occurred In a music scene like that. But they have other things like of course, but because that was our moment and I was front row center.

A (17:38)

You are in the thick of it.

B (17:40)

I feel a responsibility. I just want to share it. But I also needed to heal my own brain.

A (17:45)

What happened? I love that you said that it was like something that you felt like you needed to do. How long did it take you to finish writing from when you started?

B (17:52)

It was pretty fast. It definitely it happened, you know, like everybody got the Teutonic shift of COVID So in 2020 when everything changed, it was like our art center closed and I went hiding in the mountains of Canada for a year with our daughter. So she wouldn't to be like living in like zoom school with the mountains of Canada. That's the Rocky Mountains. So out west. So I had a inland isolated Westminster.

A (18:19)

I was just there.

B (18:20)

Nelson, British Columbia. It is a hidden gem within the.

A (18:24)

Oh, I think I matched with a girl on Ryan there and she. It's like what, four hours from Vancouver?

B (18:29)

Maybe it's about like five or six. It's very close to the Washington border. Like you basically fly into Spokane and go. It is such a hidden treasure. It's for like, you know, super snowboarder people that's like, you know, one of those hidden treasures. But it's also like weed capital, plant based medicine capital. It's like psychedelic, crazy little old mining town that looks like a storybook. It was just like an accidental find for me and my family. And there I was, locked in a cool rental loft, sending my daughter to a cool school without a mask. Like, what do I do? 50 was around the corner. I'm like, by 50, I want to have a draft of my memoir in my book for those who read it in the future. A lot of it is about my origin stories, paying tribute to the city that raised me, my city of Montreal. But my parents kick ass. Frontline feminist mother, radical socialist broadcaster, radio show, TV journalist father. I just had the coolest parents that raised me in a way that I want to just like offer to future people is just find your own voice. Being independent if possible. They never worked for anybody. They just worked for themselves. Freelancers who just like paved their way based on their passion and their perspective. So that's how I was raised. And I worship my parents. My father's long dead and his death is big part of the book. The book, by the way, is only a decade. It's 91 to 2001, the decade that find me and my generation. So it's Only a little slice of me, but I give big tribute to my origin stories of how I was made and why I fit in perfectly. When Billy recommended me to Courtney and I joined hole.

A (20:04)

Yeah. And also, like to say, being an independent, I was like, the fact that you basically left both of them when you could have continued and made more money and kept touring, it's to do your own stuff, which is like, you are an artist. Even the way you created this, it's just like, yeah, I did my thing. This was cool, but I gotta work on this now. And I know so many other, you know, whether it's a comedian or filmmakers or people that I met throughout my life that just, like, that's done now it's on to the next thing and bringing it back to Montreal. I've done the Just For Last festival. I've done it eight out of the last 12 years. Because the last couple years. Pardon? No, no, it's back now. Well, it got. So. It got bankrupt. Bankrupt during COVID That's weird. I think ICM bought it and then icm, I think, merged with somebody else or Howie Mandel bought it and then it went away and then it came back. I think this year was the first year back, but I've done, like, the nasty show, New Faces, this podcast we did our launch there. We got with Spotify Montreal. It's like you. You know, because I know some of the venues, like Club Soda and Metropolis.

B (21:08)

All of them. I played all of them. I grew up in.

A (21:10)

What was the. What was your venue? Because mine in DC was 9:30 club, so. Which is like, I know you've probably been to. And it's like. Like the blessing of having that where I grew up and being able to go there.

B (21:20)

Exactly.

A (21:21)

And I wasn't like Pavement, never. Pavement didn't come into my life till later, really. But I knew a lot of cool people that liked him. But I wanted to ask, like, being in Montreal, like, it had everything.

B (21:31)

It had everything.

A (21:31)

I know it's like. I know it had everything, but it's like, it's still. It's still not New York, it's still not dc, and it's. Right. It's six hours away, so it's not too far, but it's like, what was the scene like?

B (21:42)

The coolest? It was perfect. We had a lot of connection with the DC scene. You know, we were kind of isolated down the corridor of, like, New York and dc. Bands would come up a lot in terms of small underground. But we had. Our CBGB's was called Fufon Electric still alive and well. French for electric buttocks.

A (22:01)

It was very Montreal Room.

B (22:04)

It started like this by a bunch of body painters. And I went for the first time when I was 15. It was like upstairs in an apartment now when you. At 15, everybody. Oh, my God. I started working at bars at 15. I mean, it was like, Montreal is free form. Drinking age is 18, but you could.

A (22:20)

Go, they don't give a shit.

B (22:21)

I was. I've been going out my whole life.

A (22:23)

Sure.

B (22:23)

I started as a ticket girl there at 17. And then I got my first job as a cassette DJ at the dive bar up the block where all the bands that would play Fifone or Metropolis would then go to the bar. The Biftech, an old Portuguese steakhouse that had a. In the back of the kitchen had been, like, gutted. And it was two tape to tape decks and a little mixing board. And I was the first female cassette DJ at the time.

A (22:46)

You're a cool kid, man. I can tell you. You had cool parents.

B (22:49)

I grew up in that neighborhood.

A (22:50)

Oh, God, I bet we were in high school together. You were my Courtney Kelly. She was like, oh, she wore the cool sweaters. Had, like short hair with a pin in it. And you're just like, oh, God, she's way hipper than I am. And so, like, so what. What bands were coming in there that you were seeing?

B (23:05)

I saw every single band that you would ever. I mean, everything. Sonic Youth, Juices, Lizard, Ice Tea. I mean, like Pavement, of course, Smashing, Pump. My band opened up. So my little local band that I had, Tinker. Tinker, opened up for the Pumpkins on the Siamese Dream Tour.

A (23:20)

That's true. That one of them threw something at.

B (23:24)

Oh, that's all. Yes. It's all very much in the book. And it is the beer bottle that changed my life. Which was. That was when I was a ticket girl. I didn't even play bass yet. I was 19. They were playing for $1 at a thing called Looney Tuesdays. And it's just like. Just come for a buck and come see this band. And I had seen the Sub Pop logo because their first 12 inch was on sub Pop. So me and my roommates went down. We were one of 20 in the crowd.

A (23:48)

20 people. 20 people for smashing Pumpkins?

B (23:51)

Yeah. So Gish, it was their first show.

A (23:53)

It's before Gish Awards.

B (23:54)

It was right before, like, Gish had been coming out. It was 1991. It was like summer of 1991. And we went all they were selling at the Merch booth was this 12 inch on sub pop. They didn't even have Gish there. My roommate's boyfriend was soon to be in a band. I don't know if you follow super underground Montreal, but Godspeed, you Black Emperor. They're like a pretty serious Underground Montreal embodied everything that is cooler than cool, than cool than cool. They were a band that had a similar timeline, the Radiohead. But they never had their photo taken, never did an interview. They were. They're still alive and well today.

A (24:28)

Still touring.

B (24:29)

They're still touring. They're a cult following. A lot of my roommates ended up going into that. So by the time I joined hole in 94, I was 100% Celine Dion. Like, no cooler than that. It was like you were joining whole, like, yeah, I mean, it's. I'm gonna see the world. I know I told them no, but they really want me to. So that's like how ridiculously committed to being nobody I was.

A (24:53)

That's so funny. I. I mean, it's you. Because I always, like, there's so many people that I've, like, worked with that I was like, God, they should be so much bigger. Like. And then like you were saying, that band that's just kind of like late in the cut, and they. They probably could have been Radiohead if they just would have played the game a little bit. Oh, yeah, and there's nothing wrong with playing the game because, look, being able to play the game has been able to get you to the life that you want now.

B (25:14)

Yeah. And I have a weird balance. When I left, I always leave what I've, you know, like, because my commitment is to myself, evolving and growing as an artist, as an emotional, spiritual person. So I don't stay longer than that is stimulating me. So even with Montreal, it was kind of like I was finishing my university, majoring photography. My plan was to do my master's at RISD and be a photographer and just nurture my love of music by shooting bands and having a band on the side. That seemed like a cool life plan to me. But fate had other plans and I was like, plucked out of obscurity and joined whole instead. But leading up to that, it was as simple as now it sounds so dumb. Cause everybody's in the new age world, the cult of self, you know. But at the time, you know, it was radical that my parents never told me what to do. They just said, who are you? You tell us. Oh, you like a camera here? I have a shitty camera. Oh, want a base? Okay, well, why don't you work a couple extra weekends? I worked five days a week from, like, the time I was 16. Like, I've just been working.

A (26:17)

You were drinking already. I mean, you need to pay for your bar tab. Great.

B (26:20)

Yeah, well, I've always been very good with that. That's also how I survived and wrote a memoir about being drug addicts. And I thought, I don't have drug problems. So, you know, I had a ticket girl job, I had the cassette DJ job. And every single band came through there. It wasn't like sometimes I go to Toronto or Burlington or New York if the band wasn't routed through. But at that time, peak 90s, 91 through 94, they were all coming through Montreal because there's a market.

A (26:47)

And they're also not. They're not. It's close enough to America. And, you know, they're probably. A lot of them had. They were in the vans. They weren't in the big touring thing. So it was cheap.

B (26:56)

I saw everybody, every single band that ever was touring then. So I. To have my visceral education and mainly my flame, like, ignited that first night. I saw the pumpkins in 91. The story about the beer bottle. Halfway through this set of this unknown band, I had, like, found my favorite band. I had never seen that level of commitment because everybody was still pretty punk in 91. What, pavement and a lot of, like, the. I don't give a fuck, you know, this kind of, like, haphazardness.

A (27:24)

Yeah.

B (27:25)

Although Jane's Addiction, who I had seen the year before, nothing shocking. They had an aura, but a lot of people, they were, like, very, like, rough around the edges. Billy and Darcy and James, they had this, like, psychedelic grandiosity. And then Jimmy Chamberlain, one of the best drummers ever, which is so much better than most drummers. So there I was, watching this, like, unknown band, blown away by the largeness of it. And as I was falling in love with, like, this is some. This is a universe I've not seen before in a shitty club. My friend, who later became the drummer for Godspeed, you'd. Black Emperor started catcalling, like, attitude. Drop the fucking attitude, assholes. And I looked over and I'm like, what's wrong? He's like, they're playing like they think they're in an arena. They're not an arena. This is a punk rock club. What's wrong with them? And so me and my friend had totally different, like, visceral opposite response. And while Billy, between songs, was taking a break, my friend screams, drop the fucking Attitude, Asshole. And Billy Corgan looks up. I'm just tuning my guitar, and my friend throws a beer bottle at the singer, which crashes and smashes across his guitar. Billy delicately takes off his guitar, jumps off the stage, strangles this guy.

A (28:36)

Oh, he's a wrestling fan. Yeah. Oh, yeah, dude. He probably suplexed the motherfucker. Good guy.

B (28:40)

So they were rolling. The giant bouncers came separated. And all I thought was, you just ruined my favorite show I've ever seen. Asshole. Bruce. And then he got removed. And then Billy, to my surprise, got up, straightened himself out and said, we have one more for you, Montreal.

A (28:59)

Nice.

B (28:59)

And it was, which is I am one opening track of Gish, which was the 12 inch they had that night. And I was sold. I was like, that's it. This is like the band I'm going to follow. I better pick up the bass like that girl on the. On the stage.

A (29:14)

So is it. Seeing Darcy, that was like.

B (29:16)

I mean, it was. It was more the Sound of the Music, but. But a week later, I saw Hole opening up for Buffalo Tom. And that bass player, Jill was the most relatable. And then I had seen the Breeders, I had seen Sonic Youth. I had seen. There was Endless Girls, Babes in Toyland. There was just like endless cool girls on bass. So for me, it wasn't necessarily Darcy. It was just like that seemed to be the reoccurring position that a lot of women had. And it also made the most music sense to me. I felt it. It deeper, as all do. But some people like to be the singer. Some people like to be the drum solo guy. I just knew that. I just knew right away that the bass was where I would. So I slowly started teaching myself bass after that show. But as that happened, Billy walked off the stage. And this is how my life changed. As I went up to the guy unloading his gear and I said, hello, I am Melissa Oberthmauer from Montreal, Canada, and on behalf of my city, I apologize and I will follow you to the end of time. So I want to apologize as a good politician. Politician's daughter, polite Canadian. To apologize for the beer bottle. And then we became pen pals. And that's how I. That's how later my band opened up for them. So by the time in 1993, a few years later, I'd finally started my band, Tinker and I had written to Billy to the old address. We had been exchanging postcards. I'm like, hey, I have a band. Can I open up for you? On the Siamese Dream Tour. Congratulations. What a great record. Got returned to sender. So I sent a letter to the PO Box on the back of the Siamese Dream Virgin Records cd.

A (30:50)

What a Hail Mary. Like, just. And it worked.

B (30:54)

It worked.

A (30:55)

He seems like he would read that shit. He seems like. I mean, now he's a podcaster. He's doing everything. Like he's a people person. Yeah.

B (31:02)

I mean, he and I share the same birthday. March 17th, St. Patrick's Day. And that was quickly, early on in our relationship that we understood that we were twin sibling flames. Like, there's a lot of similarities between us. Even when we're kind of out of touch, I feel in touch. And, yeah, I like people. He likes people, and we like to talk.

A (31:22)

Yeah. But it's just such an interesting story, like, for that to happen. And I wanted. Cause I wanted to bring this back to Pavement, but. So he was the one that encouraged you to join Hole, which I saw that. Was it true that you. So your first gigs with them with Hole was at Lollapalooza.

B (31:40)

The Reading Festival was my first show, which was the first show that Courtney performed after Kurt died. First show with the new bass player after Kristen died. So it was my first show. It was their first return show. And that was August of 94. Kurt had passed in April and June was. Kristen and I joined in July.

A (32:00)

What a heavy run. To, like. I mean, not. I don't want to talk about Baby, but it's like just that moment. I mean, what was. What was the vibe like? I mean, it obviously had to be like.

B (32:11)

Well, luckily for those who really care, I wrote about it all in the book, mistakenly, but it is, you know, I joined a band in the wake of death and people who were in shock and mourning. It was, you know, when Billy recommended me to Courtney, while Courtney was, you know, because for those who don't know, live through this. Courtney's record came out the day after Kurt killed himself.

A (32:32)

Oh, yeah. And we did. So.

B (32:33)

I mean, it doesn't make any sense, you know? So this woman, what does she do? Billy was trying to help as an old friend of hers, and they couldn't find the right bass player. But mainly, Courtney couldn't get out of bed. And then he was just like, there's this girl in Montreal I have a really good feeling about. And then that was actually the summer of 94, when the pumpkins were headlining Lollapalooza. And in Montreal, I went to the show, and he was like, you got to join my friend Courtney's band. I'm like, no way. That is insane.

A (32:59)

Did you like the record? Like, had you already played?

B (33:00)

I mean, I was a dj, so I had played everything. And that's how we're going to tie into Slanted and Enchanted. I would get vinyls from the college radio station, borrow them from the college radio station, kind of like a library, because I took a position, a volunteer position, writing numbers and descriptions, and I would take them home for the night and I would record them onto my cassettes for my DJ set. So Slanting, Enchanted, I had borrowed the vinyl, put them on a cassette, and then used it in my DJ set. But same was for live through this. I mean, I just had all the. I knew all the stuff. I was a DJ three to five nights a week, Courtney, which I now know all too well. And I realized I was mainly called to duty to support an innovative, pioneering voice of a woman of my generation that was 10 light years, thousands of years ahead of everybody in her own, you know, version and understanding of how fucked the world is and how misogynistic and sure, so, you know, all of her being burned at the stake by everybody and everything, by the time I joined in that band, you know, like, it was a loaded hell zone. But I now, 25 years later, understand a lot better what force she was in the universe and why I was called in my destiny to support her. So that's all in the thing in the book. But it's like, I have a parallel life. I have this, like, giant mythological thing that happened to me, the beer bottle and Billy. And then I joined this band, and I have to support, like, this broken, wondrous voice of female in my generation. But then I have literally all these photos and stories to tell about just the fun thing. As a tourist fan, I got to travel everywhere. I got to do everything. So I have two worlds going. Like, the big. Oh, my God, that's giant. Like, quagmire of soul destruction. And then I have the photos and the fun of, like, I was just a girl who loved music, who got to tour with every single band in the 90s. So by the time we were on tour, Lollapalooza 95, Hole in Sonic Youth, co headlining with Pavement right below us. Although my show, the Reading Festival Show, August of 94, Pavement, played directly after us. So they were, like, at the peak. They had done such a great job. Made a splash with Slanted and Enchanted, and then Crooked Rain was out that summer. So they shared the bill that first night of my first show with Hole. But then six months later, we headlighted Lollapalooza, and they were under us, so we had reversed and the bill. And when I was listening to this record, getting ready for the show, I realized just how much of these songs in my mind's eye are just wafting through 1995 summer. Sweaty crowds, like, just. It was the soundtrack. They really have a unique kind of. They sound like nobody else at the time. Although they have hints of the cool, like, not trying too hard, you know, cynical joker, but really committed to being uncommitted to anything. They're so. And I realized that in listening to the record this week, that it just sounds like Lollapalooza 95 to me. Like, to me there. Because Beck was also on that tour and Moby was also on that tour. And I've listened. But there's something about Pavement that sounds like that festival to me.

A (36:15)

There's a. You know, when people, like, look back at the 90s, even when you. When the Simpsons did that episode. Cause I just had Cypress Sale on. But do you remember when Homer.

B (36:25)

Do you understand? We were supposed to be the pumpkins, and I have the script, like, that we were written in. And Courtney's managers went in and said, actually, this is a caricature of Courtney, and we're not gonna. I'm like, what are you talking about?

A (36:39)

It would have been on this. What the fuck?

B (36:40)

Oh, I can't even tell. It's in my book where I'm like, short amounts of regrets. The fucking. I mean, me and Patty, the drummer, were like, yes, we're in the Simpsons. They had our script. And I was, like, written perfectly. I was like a cosmic, talking about astrology hippie. They had everybody downstream. They were getting ready to send us the drawings of who we were. When the management decided, actually, that makes Courtney look bad. I'm like, you are in denial of what? Courtney actually is a powerhouse maniac.

A (37:09)

Yeah.

B (37:10)

So they replaced us with the pumpkin.

A (37:12)

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to bring that up. By the book, guys. You'll get more of it. You'll get more of the story. But that was the thing, is, they show the audience, and it's the way, like. Because I was too young to really go to concerts in 94 and 95. I mean, I was. I was born in 79, but, you know, so I started going towards, like, the end of the. Of the century.

B (37:30)

Not the same.

A (37:31)

Not at all.

B (37:32)

But I did change so quick.

A (37:34)

I did go to a lot of shows. 100% was after. It was after Kurt died. It Was all.

B (37:38)

I think that was 95 was kind of the end. That's why, to me, Pavement and that Lollapalooza that I did with them, everything changed after that. The kind of peak of our 90s explosion ended at 95. And then it started turning it into Houdini and Blowfish and corn and Blink 182. And, like, what. And all those things don't sound alike. So the one thing that the end of the 90s did have was the amazing fact that nobody sounded alike. Everybody was their own cool thing pre 95, but it was cooler, in my opinion. Then a lot of these people also were invaded by the body snatchers of major labels. So they didn't have the time in the van to, like, become funny and deep and connected. And it was just a lot of trying to get big fat. Like, Bush was a big turning point. I'm sure you remember that. Everything's. Of course, that's when I was like, oh, shoot. But so 95 was definitely the end. And having started as a ticket girl in 91 and seeing like, okay, now we're rolling into a different world. And then by the time 2000, forget it. And iTunes in MySpace and whoa. So.

A (38:45)

But when I said. When I said Kurt dying, it was like that was. He was like, let's say this. If he was the guru of the 90s in the sense that he was pro, pro women, pro people, pro gay, pro whatever. And then he's the face that then passed away. We don't have a leader anymore. I mean, Eddie's doing his thing, you know, and Chris Cornell and Scott Weiland's on drugs, and Courtney is, you know, at the time, dealing so much and suffering, you know. But then you have these people. Like, what I was get to is like a pavement that. Because, dude, it's like on the surface, it is like this jangly guitars and just. It's so different. But lyrically out of tune. But lyrically, it's the same thing as, like, Loser by bet.

B (39:27)

Yeah.

A (39:27)

It's like this is like. Whereas, like, that was a pop hit, this album. And then even Crooked Rain, like, these are like these indie.

B (39:35)

It's like the air we breathe. It was the actual soundtrack of the time. There was something. And I think what you're gonna. And Lollapalooza, the. The Simpsons episode. Yeah, I'm sure. I don't remember, but I'm sure the crowd looks like they're in Pavement.

A (39:48)

Yeah, they all do.

B (39:50)

They're just like, indie rock guys. They epitomized what A, I'm pretty smart, but I don't really give a. I don't try too hard. I'm not, you know, I'm not too cute. I'm not a jock. It was just like the epitome of an indie rock guy.

A (40:02)

Yeah.

B (40:03)

And they. And they were so nice, you know, and they were not overly nice. And they were not. It just there, you know, I was happy. I was between this and Blondie. Parallel lines, because Blondie changed my life.

A (40:14)

Such a great record.

B (40:15)

But Pavement.

A (40:20)

I don't know words, by the way, so I just make them up.

B (40:22)

I know them, I know them, but they defined the vibe of the guy of our generation. Basically, Pavement dudes are the dudes, the cool dudes of the 90s that really were smart enough, didn't give a fuck enough. Just perfect, like, you know. And I think that this. This breakout record for them was definitely, you know, obviously, it's what put them on the map for every other pure group that were like, oh, cool.

A (40:48)

So did they blow up? Because keep in mind, like, I knew of them. I wasn't there, but it's like. And I knew of them, but I was like. Like I said I was. I. I loved everything, but it wasn't like it was accessible. When you're a young kid, you only have X amount of dollars. So I'm not gonna go spend $18 at the Waxy Maxi to get this band I might have heard of. I fucked up once doing that with Death Cab for Cutie. And I was like, I'm not doing that again. But the moral, moral story. Nothing against Death Cab if you like them people, but it's like there was a. There was like. It's years later with the way the accessibility, getting music, like, how big was like, Pavement.

B (41:22)

I mean, it was slow, like. Like I said, like, weirdly, you know, they were back to back with us on the bill between 94 and 95. I had seen them in the small club. They were slow burn. They were just building consistently. I went to see that Pavement movie recently just to sort of get, well, a. To laugh and see how silly of a concept it was. Because it was silly. But it kind of helped me also place this sort of murky, like, where were they? You know, they weren't huge. They weren't like. But they were on mtv and they did have songs on the radio. I don't. You know, they were. Well, Matador Records is an iconic thing of that time. So that label just like. Like Touch and Go in Chicago and Amphetamine Reptile in the Midwest and Merge Records in the South. Like the labels kind of. And then of course Discord and Fugazi in D.C. there was just certain in Sub Pop. Sub Pop made the ones that broke through the Soundgardens, et cetera. But Matador had its own thing and Pavement kind of were like the kings of Matador. And there was other cool bands on that label happening, but they were sort of the kings of that label. So it kind of kept them because they never signed to a major label. Unless I'm wrong, somebody Google it.

A (42:39)

You want to check that? Shannon, are you us now?

B (42:41)

I think they kept popped in.

A (42:43)

You just popped in. AJ's gone.

B (42:45)

Yeah, he has another show. Can you tell me the thing? I'm sorry.

A (42:47)

Just look up to see if. What was it?

B (42:49)

Does Google. Did Pavement ever sign to a major label? I think they've been on Matador always. And that is why you can't quite answer. They have the influence the way that Sonic Youth has influenced. But even Sonic Youth signed to dgc just like Hole and everybody and Beck and everybody else. So I think that they just kept small on purpose. They're smart, you know, like that's. Who wants to be in a giant band.

A (43:13)

Do you think? I mean, you were for. You were friends with Steven, right?

B (43:16)

Like Malcolm?

A (43:17)

Yeah.

B (43:17)

I mean, yeah, like peer touring buddies.

A (43:19)

Sure. I mean, did you ever get the air that they were like anti success? Like maybe they were.

B (43:23)

Oh my God, we all were. But they fucking held it down. That's what's cool.

A (43:28)

Is it more. Is it self sabotage or is it like.

B (43:30)

It was a generational thing? We came out of the 80s. Do you know how lame the 80s.

A (43:34)

Were between 80s Dude, Hollow notes rules. Wham's cool.

B (43:39)

No music. I mean, I worship.

A (43:41)

Yeah, Reagan and fucking.

B (43:42)

That's what I mean. America in the 80s was not cool. It was anti everything. Basically UK 80s. Like I said, I grew up in the NME. I was in heaven. And for me it was the Cure, de Pache Mode, the Smiths. I was enjoy. The America meant nothing to me until 90s, you know, like I literally. The UK had everything I ever needed as an alternative melancholic music kid. But then what they were reacting to Bleach, Everybody, Matador. The labels that popped up was this hideous decade of pro business, pro war, pro money, pro. So you have to understand, that's what Fugazi. Anyone who hasn't really looked up Fugazi, Minor Threat and. And Discord Records, you have to. It was like we were all had to be anti Success or else you were part of the evil system that was going to destroy the world like it is right now. So we were a moment where I had the joy to talk to Michael Stipe yesterday because I'm working on another project around my memoir.

A (44:42)

Tell him I said photography.

B (44:44)

He's the best.

A (44:45)

We've had Mike on the podcast. I haven't had. No, we had Mills on the podcast, but we haven't had. We haven't had.

B (44:50)

Had backup singer Mike Mills, my guy.

A (44:52)

But it's like. It's so funny. It's just like because of this podcast, it's the way that I'm becoming a fan of Pavement. I always loved REM but then I've just like fallen in love with them when you really get to dig in.

B (45:02)

But they epitomize. And they were right before, you know, so they. They a bit like Jane's Addiction. And, you know, they were in U2. They were before the. The boom, of course, but they had sort of were the bridge and they held that kind of integrity too. Do you remember the whole thing that Microsoft was gonna give them like $20 million to introduce their new computer thing with it's the End of the World as We Know It.

A (45:30)

Oh, wow.

B (45:30)

And they did not let them. They're like, we're not gonna be bought. But imagine if that song had been destroyed and also been the. Welcome to the computer. The End of the World as We Know It.

A (45:40)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (45:41)

So that level of integrity was just as a response to a shitty world before us. And what I am most concerned about why I wrote this book is that that was just embedded in our DNA. And now every single musician, for example, I worship Billie Eilish. Of course she's on a major label. What else would she be doing? Of course, if you want to reach the masses, of course she wears the Gucci clothes and does the thing because that's just. Everybody's in the giant money game now, even if they're the coolest people on the planet. This is the difference is none of us were. And we got basically corrupted. You know, we are gender. And that's what the second half of the 90s was. Was the corruption of. Oh, cool, let me prey on you. Broken, broke, you know, Broken, broke person. I'll buy you dinner. Oh, you see this record contract, you know, and that. And I was even through my journey in whole holding down my. No way. Like, I don't want to sell my soul to you forever. No way. Because I had the benefit of being a product of. Of the real deal of, no, you're not gonna own me. It's not gonna happen. I have to serve my integrity first. So it was a generation of that. There was a sweet spot there. I long for it to come back. And Pavement. Anyone who, like, is following them now and watch that silly movie, which in.

A (46:58)

Some ways I wish I would've watched it. I didn't even know if it was.

B (47:01)

You can watch it on, I'm sure Netflix or whatever. In some ways, it's so silly and encapsulates how silly they are, but they're also so brilliant. And it's like this effortless brilliance in that we're not gonna try too hard, but we're gold, we're cool.

A (47:17)

It's the same thing. No, I agree with that. It's the same thing that if you strip away the grunge sound in a lot of Nirvana songs, these beautiful pop songs, and I mean, this record is like. If you take away the jangliness and the distortion and he sings it. I mean, I like his voice, so I'm not putting that down. But if you get. If he just beefed it up a little bit. Not even that. It just would be this.

B (47:42)

Like, some of these are the lyrics. He's a real, like, armchair philosopher dude. That guy is like, writing like. He clearly is so well read. Poetry, literature, clearly the guy. His lyrics. And it just makes it seem like this effortless. He rolled off the couch and now he's like spewing like perfect bohemian poetry. I love that about him. Context also, for people who, you know, when this record came out in 92 and when I was raid the college radio station vinyls and just borrow them for a couple days, it was hand in hand with two other bands, Sebato and Polvo and Pavements. These are the three bands that had this effortless, out of tune, wackadoodle, zany, but brilliant. And energy like a punk rock energy that has like. Like just that wackiness of them. Sebido was phenomenal. Lou Barlow, who later became. He went solo and had some kind of mortal. More palpable hits later. But there was this lo fi, bad shitty guitar you get at a thrift shop vibe that was actually truly their vibe. They went and bought the shitty guitar. They couldn't stay in tune. That's why it sounded the way it sounded. So there was a good group of them that sounded like this. And Polvo was my favorite of them. Polvo means dust in Spanish, I think. And they had like. They were on that label from Chapel Hill or, yeah, called Merge Records, that super chunk run. So you kind of trusted scenes and you trusted labels. And Matador gave, you know, hailed them. And then Sub Pop had Sebito.

A (49:17)

He really did. I never thought about that. There was like. You really would be like, oh, Sub.

B (49:22)

Pop, they were curators. They were the influencers of the time, you know, that's why the A and R people and the big mainstream major labels were like. Like, you have all the power, but you're mostly creeps. Like, why you now hold the power to curate. And they. A lot of them were very nice. Like, we were lucky with Hole. We had great A and R guy, Mark Cates, who had, like. Everybody had Beck and Sonic Youth. And so there was nice people. I'm not saying they were all creepy, but they had a job to do. Find these people, sign a shitty deal, tempt them with a lot of money first and then nothing on the back end. And yes, you know, great tour budgets, record budgets, you know. But then you'd start, like, being morphed by their need. Of course. But Pavement didn't do that. And neither did Polvo, neither did Sebito. And when I think of pavement in 92, when I brought that record home, I was like, oh, that's another one of these wacky. Got their shitty guitar and they make singing that sounds like you can't sing good. Yeah, that's a weird, like, thing. Like, Beck had it too. Of like, wow. And then when I was listening this week, I'm like, God, Stephen Malchemist. Great lyrics, great melodies, but sounds like as if a character is pretending they can't hold a tune but realize somehow it's holding a tune.

A (50:38)

No, but that's the thing, I think that's so beautiful about it, is that it goes with the guitars, it goes with all the music and the instrumentation and his voice just make this perfect. I don't know, it's just.

B (50:52)

It's very unique.

A (50:53)

It really just like you said, it did take me back, like, listening to this. And maybe if, like I said, I wasn't listening to at the time, but it's like, oh, it feels like. It just feels like the 90s. We actually did Crooked Rain. We did that with actual Rain Wilson from the Office. It's always the people that. There's certain bands that. That a lot of people have reached out to do. Pavement was one. We always got cool people. The Replacements, Y, that's another one. And they're very similar in a sense to this band too. Just they're more. They were more Self sabotaging.

B (51:26)

Oh, that's for sure. But they're also more singer songwriter like that, you know, Westerberg people. You know, there was something similar to that Once was big also Soul Asylum. That was like a Midwestern sort of singer songwriter thing that wasn't that big in the. You know, in the 90s was about bands. And when there's like a songwriter that's really prolific and you're like listening to his words. And like a Bob did like four folk stuff kind of folk traditions. Whereas of course, I was not that. And the bands that I worshiped, which were all heavier than Pavement. I worship Pavement because they embody a spirit of laissez faire and fuck everything while being also nice. You know, it's not punk. They're like nicely politely punk. But for me, that wasn't the music that inspired me to pick up anything. That was more the Pumpkins and even Soundgarden. And so for me, I was a heavy rock rock person who had deep appreciation for all these quirky weirdos that were just like unashamedly being their selves. Nerdy, weird, freaky selves. Which were great poster people for nerdy, freaky cool people out there that didn't wanna have to be like, slick and perfect.

A (52:37)

Yeah, yeah. Do you have any good stories, like hanging out with them?

B (52:41)

Yeah, so we saw that. Cool. Lollapalooza95.

A (52:46)

Cause I saw pictures. I saw like. You have that tour diary thing.

B (52:48)

Yeah, I was a photographer. Original. So I went to school in photography. And then when I joined Hull, you know, one of the first things I said was, shit, now I can't do my photography. And so I ended up turning my much more classically trained in the darkroom photography practice into a point and shoot camera. I joke now that I went to university for selfies. Cause it was a lot of self portraits. And I took a photo of me and every single person I ever met. And I recently ran into Beck, who was also on that tour. He was playing with the Boston Pops last summer. And I went for like a reunion because the A R guy was gonna be there. And I hadn't seen him in ages. And I brought a little photo from Lollapalooza. I'm like, oh, I took this Polaroid of you, I thought. And he. And he pointed out that I was the only one on the tour that had a camera. He was like, it was so cool. You didn't hide that you cared. You were really excited. I'm like, yeah, I was on tour in the 90s. Lollapalooza as a music fan, I took pictures of everything. Every day, every crowd, every backstage. I just turned into like rock tourists. And I was. And. But it was funny the way Beck had said it of, Wait, you cared and you didn't hide it. That was so cool of you. And I made friends with one, you know, Lee Reynaldo from Sonic Youth. He also had a camera. He was kind of arty guy like me. And we would just chat about our film and what kind of old cameras we use. And it was kind of a rarity back then, which is why my follow up to my memoir is a huge photo. A coffee table book of all my 90s photography and a museum exhibit that's going to travel around.

A (54:18)

I want that so bad.

B (54:19)

But. So I finally, a quarter century later, have like archived and scanned all the photos. But on that tour, Spin magazine had heard that I was always without a camera. So they had commissioned me and Courtney to do the Lollapalooza tour diary. So I took the photos and she wrote the text and it's hilarious. You can find it online. Her. I think the subline is the. The least sexually, least sexy tour of America of just like everyone was just like this cute, nerdy, you know, indie rock, everything. She was like kind of demonized for a million. You know, people didn't treat her well in the 90s. She also was a drug addict, so she was hard to relate to. And the tragedy that was her whole self was very scary for people. Whereas I was like on both, like at the catering, hanging out with the roadies and the thing. But also so protective of her of like, this woman is like an abandoned human being. Not just by her husband, but by her parents. She's like, she was emancipated. She grew up alone, like 16 years old stripper. Like, what do you want from people who. I mean, yes, you can expect people to get better.

A (55:26)

Yeah, of course.

B (55:27)

But when your husband died now, though.

A (55:30)

Imagine now with the way that social media is and how much worse it would have been. I mean, yeah, who.

B (55:35)

Who knows? Or maybe they would have been forgiving of this poor woman.

A (55:38)

Maybe, maybe it could have gone either way.

B (55:40)

You know, mental health issues, surely.

A (55:42)

But also, you got her. I mean, and do you think. And I know we're getting a little off topic, but just because you brought it up is because when Celebrity Skin came out, that was like. And. And this is not an insult when I say it, that was like her best version. Like, she was gorgeous.

B (55:57)

Like, she took Hollywood happened. She became.

A (56:01)

Yeah, I love the People versus Larry.

B (56:03)

Flynn and shows at that time. I mean, live through this. Shows were insane because she was stage diving and, like, punk and everything was insane. And people were throwing shotgun shells at us and it was just like stage girl. It was so crazy and so dangerous feeling every night.

A (56:17)

Oh, wow.

B (56:18)

Whereas by the time we got to Celebrity Skin and she's sober on the COVID of every magazine, it was a whole other world. We were like, you know, big, glossy performers. I'm glad I did both, you know, as a human. I'm glad I did. I continued to try, but I really did ride. In the course of five years, we went from totally not a stitch of makeup, totally fucked up, to the most slick, photo perfect selves. Not to mention the slickness of the record, the production, the songwriting. So I think Ho's arc, that album that came before, lived through this teenage horror. I mean, when you look at three records in the course of seven years, no band grows that fast. And that weirdly rapid, incredible arc that. That. That band, so. And she's underrated. So is Eric the guitar player. It's just like the whole thing is overshadowed by Kurt.

A (57:10)

We did live through this on the podcast. We did that. Who did that? I think a comedian. Jessie made a comedian. Jesse Mae Pelusa. This is pre Pandemic. Before we started, we. I don't know if it was Spotify at that time, but what was funny was we on my TV show, Busy Phillips, where all she sang. She told a story about, like, idolizing Courtney Love and blah, blah, blah, and then sang that with my band and.

B (57:36)

Like, went full Courtney's World or Doll Parts or.

A (57:38)

No, she did what is it? But it's. But that's the thing is that when I was like. And especially after talking to you and meeting you and hearing your perspective and even the way that you're on tour with the camera, do you feel like with your positive energy, you were one of the factors that kind of helped move the band into that direction? Because it's not the music that you're listening that you grew up on. Like you said, it's not. I don't call it overproduction, but it is a polished record.

B (58:04)

Oh, it is a polished record.

A (58:05)

Whereas Live through this is like. I mean, yeah, it was also a.

B (58:10)

Sign of the time. The label was like, hey, cool, just go to Atlanta for a couple weeks of this. By the time we had to make our comeback, that was a cycle. It's like people had these, like, you'd start in a van with your first record that would kind of cost nothing. And then you were expected to have your comeback. Everyone like, that's when like Soundgarden, Black Hole, sun, it was like, you know, that next follow up record had to have the top 40 hit, had to have the glossy production. So we were just following a model, unfortunately, you know, that I was actually very doubtful of because I could tell it was going to kill parts of the soul of the band which did, which was our drummer Patti. We lost her to addiction during the making of that record. That's her own fault, addiction. But it was also the pressure of like not everything goes anymore. You can't just, you know, you gotta actually deliver. And the big producer, Michael Beinhorn, who gets a bad rap basically in the history of Hole, because he had the girl drummer replaced by a male ghost drummer, which was. Destroyed her for a decade. And I had to sit back and watch those moral decisions. But the joke is, and I obviously say this in all my book, is that I had the best musical experience of my life. I went to music school my whole life. So I, I, before I even started playing rock music, I had sung the Mozart Requiem in a five, you know, 300 person choir. I had read. I was a trumpet player for six years. I was a musician. Trumpet was my instrument. I started in middle school. I was the first trumpet, the only girl in the section.

A (59:37)

And it was like forced to do it or. That was the instrument.

B (59:39)

No, I chose it.

A (59:40)

You chose it? I was forced to play trumpet and I wanted to play sass.

B (59:42)

I chose it. Yeah, yeah, I could have played. No, I for some reason wanted to play the thing that none of the girls were playing and I was, was always the best player and I. So I had the advantage of having musical ear developed young in my life. That's why when I joined Hole, when I played that show them, I had only played seven rock shows in my life. I had picked up the bass a year and a half before. I was not, had not been slugging it. I just like Cinderella over and I'm like, oh, this is easy. Okay, cool. Oh, now I'm in a huge rock band. So I just had the. And the thing is that part of the slickness, other than it was a time and the budget and the demands of the managers and the label is that I don't. You know what I'm most proud of. And like I've found like in the gutters of YouTube they have analysis of this, but my backup vocals as a choir girl, which made a big difference in the Live show too, when you have those like roaring witch and then you have an angel in the background. That really got super honed in on that album.

A (60:40)

It did, yeah.

B (60:41)

And so I am so proud. Somewhere online you can see where they do those isolated mixes and I have have up to three part harmonies tripled and doubled, plus doubling her chorus Vocal. There's like 12 of me to everyone Courtney on that record. So I am the candy wrapped around her growl that lifts it in a certain. And that was for me, my most proud moment on that record. And I remember when we finished that record. And my bass playing is very good on the record too, I have to say. I mean, I love. And I remember at the end the very hard producer was like, you are the easiest person in this band to work with musically. I was just like, I show up and do it. Thank you. I did my parts. I like my parts. He was like, very easy. I'm like, I excelled musically on that record and I'm very proud of it. But also I witnessed the demise of like the magic that I just knew it wasn't gonna last. Between her fame eclipsing into this like Hollywood thing and us losing the drummer and then we were like a three piece on the COVID of like Spin that it just got confused. And then I left because I'm like, this is not sticking. We made like an amazing record and I'm so proud of my musicality. But I also watched the corporate demands and her love of fame unravel the heart of the band. Right. So, you know, and we're very close now, but. But it's a miracle she didn't, you know, I left her and I left, you know.

A (62:18)

Hey, everybody. So you guys have probably heard me talk about how I've been in bands my whole life. I love writing songs and performing in front of crowds. Just like with comedy. As a musician, it can be kind of hard to cut through the noise and really stand out as an artist. I feel like half the music projects I've been in have ended just because we couldn't find figure out the answer to that eternal question of how do we get people to hear us? But then again, that was before there was Distrokid. Distrokid is a digital music distribution service that brings your sound to the masses. It's a one stop shop for getting your songs on itunes, Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube Music, Amazon, Deezer, Tidal, and many more. What's Deezer? I never even heard of Deezer. How many of them are there? I know all that. That's like the holy grail of streaming services and getting paid. They want to. We want to get you paid for your music. That's huge because a lot of bands go broke before they get big. But Distrokid collects earnings and payments and sends 100% of these earnings to artists minus banking fees and applicable taxes. And that's just one of the tons of benefits of using Distrokid. You can send big files to anyone with their Instant Share feature. You can use the Hyper Follow feature to promote your release and get pre saves on your song song. You can even create personal landing pages for yourself, your band, your brand and whatever you like. It has a free Spotify Canvas generator too to generate your own Spotify Canvas for your songs. And the Mixia feature instantly masters your tracks for higher quality audio. So if you're ready to bring your band to the next level, it's time to check out Distrokid. The distance Distrokid app is now available on iOS and Android. Go to the app or Play Store to download it. Listeners of this show can get 30% off their first year by going to distrokid.com VIP the 500. That's distrokid.com VIP the500 for 30% off your first year. Dig it.

B (64:28)

Hey. This is Dan Nordheim, host of the documentary podcast Life of the Record. Join me as I interview the artists, musicians and producers that were involved in the making of a classic album. Each episode tells the story of how one album came to be directly from the people who were there. You'll hear from artists like Spoon, Pixies, the Shins, Violent Femmes, Bonnie Prince, Bill, Minor Threat, and Richard and Linda Thompson. The podcast includes in depth interviews with the creators who offer surprising insights into each track on the record. With episodes covering albums across different eras, music scenes and genres, Life of the Record has something unique to offer music fans. Subscribe to Life of the Record on your favorite podcast platform. I'm scared.

A (65:15)

I saw the thing where you said that she sent a five page fax or something from it. But. But you know, obviously you guys just played together recently, right?

B (65:24)

Yeah, and I was just saying on her record, she's made an incredible comeback solo record that I'm so excited for. A real redemption through song. So no, I mean we didn't talk for over a decade. I mean it was not a easy departure.

A (65:38)

It's tough. I mean especially it's like because you suddenly became like a coace of the band. You were all over the music videos. I remember Gold Dust Woman, you're like backing her up. You're getting these solos, which is not a lot of bass players do.

B (65:50)

True. It's true. And then I joined her ex boyfriend, Billy Corbin, next month.

A (65:55)

That was timing. You didn't.

B (65:56)

It was so cool.

A (65:57)

It was awesome. But that was. It's not like you were like, you left to do that.

B (66:01)

Exactly.

A (66:01)

You left because you left. And he was like, dude, just come. We're friends and we're homies.

B (66:05)

And Darcy had disappeared literally the same month that I was like leaving the band. So it was meant to be. And that's like the kind of like destined fairy tale part of my life that I just kept. You know, the universe is telling me I gotta do this stuff and I have a role in this generation, in this moment, to be here to witness it. And you were asking about like the positive vibes. Is it? Yes. Me being a non drug addict, did that help being in a band of people who struggled? Definitely. Me being an unjaded Canadian who had integrity, who was not gonna fall prey to any of the seduction of. You gotta. You know. You hated Hollywood. I just sort of. I hated.

A (66:40)

Yeah, you're not a Hollywood person. I can tell. I can tell by the hat. That's a Hollywood hat.

B (66:44)

Come on, dude, I'm European.

A (66:46)

Yeah.

B (66:46)

So it was. Yeah, that was tough. But I think Courtney. I ended up unearthing a lot of quotes of hers while I was in the band for researching my memoir of like, you know, what was said publicly. And there was a. Courtney did say in that early kind of, you know, that she wouldn't have continued the band if she hadn't found me. I hadn't remembered that. Cause there was so much that probably terrified me when I read it in rolling stone in 95. I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no. Because I was pretty non committ of what am I actually going to do here and what's going to happen? Like, are people going to die? More people. So I was pretty half in. And her immediate connecting with me of I need you and her putting me up as the like the virgin to her whore and the good girl, the bad girl. And I was like, you know, a. Whatever they called a wingman, the yin.

A (67:37)

And the yang, but also like the.

B (67:39)

Sign that that person, the comedian, needs your straight man. Straight man.

A (67:43)

So like, she'd be like, fuck you.

B (67:45)

I'm like, no, thank you. It was just like, I, you know, I instantly had a role to play. That was much. And actually when I was talking to Michael Stipe yesterday, he Brought it up. He's like, you gave Courtney that pillar she needed. Without you, she was sort of flailing alone. And he told me about the moment when they became huge at REM that he turned to Mike Mills and said, I'm going to need you to step it up. I actually need. Need help. I need a supporting. And that's when Michael, when Mike Mills grew out his hair, got the nudie suits and became, like the flashy bass player. And I guess, you know, lead. Wild people, even if they are the dominant wild people, do need support.

A (68:24)

Oh, for sure.

B (68:25)

And I took my role very seriously, both on stage and off stage. And I also, you know, I never kissed her ass. I never lied to her. I never pretended shit was cool when it wasn't. And even when I left the band, which she was very upset about, she respected me for it. That's why we're friends now. That's why 25 years later, we don't have a bad word to say about each other. Because I did what I had to do, she did what she had to do, and we made a great team for a while.

A (68:53)

Yeah. And also, like we said, it's like you. It's not like you left, you know, yes, it was going maybe in a direction you just didn't want to keep pursuing, but it's like you could look back and be like, everybody's cool. We're not in a bad place. We're not arguing. We're not falling apart. I just want to move on.

B (69:08)

Yeah. And I laughed at our peak. But she had. The main thing is she would not commit to the managers because she was waiting on a film schedule, and we could have been touring for another year, which I would have done because I love music. But she was committed to Hollywood at that moment. I was like, I'm not going to wait one more month to find out if you're going to make a movie with so and so you're not taking it seriously. I was a little upset that she wasn't. And we had set out to be one of the biggest female rock bands, and we did it.

A (69:35)

Oh, you did.

B (69:35)

And she. She was busy with a newer goal. And, you know, I don't mean to say that with disrespect for her, but I am a musician. I was there to make music. And the moment she, you know, got a little less interested. She did not have my commitment anymore. I was not. I was not gonna stand by waiting.

A (69:53)

What was the. What was like the. Do you have, like, a swan song moment? Like the. This Is the show. This is the moment with the band that you were like, yes.

B (70:01)

Yeah, it was in the last summer. Cause I left them at the end of our Canadian tour in Vancouver. But right before going on tour across Canada, headlining my homeland. The best we'd ever been to the biggest crowds we'd ever been.

A (70:16)

Summer or summer, thank God.

B (70:18)

Okay, summer. It was an outdoor festival. It was like the Lollapalooza of Canada.

A (70:22)

Oshawa, whatever.

B (70:23)

That's not. Yeah, that's a Montreal one. It was called the Edge and it went from east coast to West Coast. That was the last tour I ever did. And it was halfway through my Canadian tour where I realized, I'm done. I've accomplished this. This is incredible. She's not committing to the next leg of the tour. But it was Glastonbury right before that, in the early summer of 99, we had like co. Top billing, rem and us. Glastonbury, which is, I'm sure you know, the.

A (70:51)

Oh, yeah.

B (70:54)

Quite literally took a helicopter, me, Courtney, Michael Stipe and a couple of our entourage took a helicopter from London to Glastonbury, flew over Stonehenge, kind of made like a prayer over Stonehenge, landed our helicopter, played the biggest, best show Courtney and I have ever played. And I remember thinking, wow, who would have known that like this like Falling Apart garage act five years ago could command this level of pop and this size of audience sonically and really deliver? That was the peak. And I think it's filmed somewhere. I hear people refer to that show. I mean, we were just so good and so tight. Because during Live through this, we were not tight. We were not music. I mean, it was like crazy. It was like she would talk for 20 minutes about like Eddie Vedder or something, while me and the drummer would like, like play like joke. Like joke shit. So, you know, that was a different time. So the swan song I'd say is, yeah, Glastonbury. I'm just sad that Patty, our drummer, wasn't there for that peak of us. But we had a great girl, Sam Maloney, who took her place. And we were three girls on a huge stage and we were the only girls at that level of billing. And that's what mattered to me is that we had climbed the ranks and we were where I had committed. When I joined Courtney hesitantly, I understood that the sole connection was we are going to put females into a male dominated landscape. That's what I'm here to do. And that's.

A (72:23)

You're like the go go's of the 90s.

B (72:25)

Yeah. I mean, we continued that tradition.

A (72:27)

All of the Go Go's fit into Courtney of just how wild they were. And, like, you were. I guess you were the Jane. I don't know. Like, was Jane partying? I don't know. I feel like it's like, the more I found out about. Because she let it, like. I mean, it's. Aside from obviously what happened with Kurt, it was just, you know, dealing and. And seeing her, like. Like you said, it was just that. That, like, lived through. This is just. It's grunge. It's a tornado. And then that record that y' all came out, it was like, oh, my. Like, because I had never looked at her like, oh, she's hot. Like, holy shit. But also then I was like, who's this redhead killing it with the vocals? And I had a crush on my. This girl in my. In my friend's band, Lauren Rostek. She played bass. So I've always had a thing for the chicks.

B (73:14)

I mean, I guess there was a lot of us. I hope there's more.

A (73:17)

Friends with Tol Wilkenfeld. Do you know her?

B (73:19)

No.

A (73:19)

Told Wilkenfeld she played with Jeff Beck. She's like a prodigy. Got discovered at 16.

B (73:24)

Such a cool group of women. There's actually a cool bass player documentary coming out in the uk Will come out here later called Bass Lines. But I just, like, co authored an hour of it of, like, Life of Bass through my lens and my history. But, I mean, I am a bass player for sure. Like, I want to say this. I love the bass.

A (73:42)

How? I mean, Rolling Stone ranked you as one of the hundred greatest bass players of all time.

B (73:48)

Oh, really?

A (73:48)

You didn't see that?

B (73:49)

No.

A (73:49)

Oh, I'm positive. I know that for a fact. You really didn't see this?

B (73:53)

No, but there's also. I mean, you don't look at list bass players. I don't look at lists. The bass players are underrated in general, as we know. And then, you know, and then I don't want to spend time on it. Cause I want to get more to Pavement. But, you know, I went solo after leaving the Pumpkins. And that was a big, you know, weird move, too, for the bass player to just go solo and go into, you know, center stage. Singer, songwriter, performer. And I had a very small group of, like, I'd always say on five fingers. We got Lemmy from Motorhead, Phil Lynette from Thin Lizzy, Geddy Lee from Rush.

A (74:32)

There was Spaghetti Rules.

B (74:33)

Oh, my God. There was just so few.

A (74:35)

You want My love Like I want.

B (74:36)

Love yeah There was just so few of us. And I'm forgetting something important. There was, oh, typo negative Peter Steele, who I worship. And so I just sort of. I was like, I like being the odd, odd woman out where I'm the bass player making my own records. And I went and made a couple of records that I loved. And that's when I got to shine just as my own. My own sonic self, you know, I didn't have to answer to anybody. I just wrote the songs. I'd invite all my favorite drummers and guitar players to add to it. I did a bunch with the Queens of the Stone Age guys who were my. Some of my favorites at the time. I mean, still to this day. Actually, Josh is one of my favorite of all of those guys. He's so talented.

A (75:18)

This. This new tour, I just went to see them because I did a bunch of shows with them in Europe. And then Lacka.

B (75:23)

I know he's doing the crooning thing. I mean, the guy is.

A (75:25)

But it's the same thing, like, to bring it back to pavement is that once you strip away the guitars and you add a symphony orchestra, you're like, oh, my God. Like, these are some of the most beautiful songs I've ever heard. And dark. And then he wrote this new song that is so, like, baroque and it's very crony, but it's literally all of. It's the most honest thing he's probably ever written about his life, his marriage, his kids, being a dad. And it was. It was such a great show.

B (75:51)

Him doing Bowie is also. When you see what a talented singer he is, but he's insane. Wait, is Queens not on this 100 list? Can I come back for that? What?

A (75:59)

No, this is an older list. It's a 2012 list. Maybe I would say, oh, I could.

B (76:03)

Songs for the deaf.

A (76:04)

Songs of the deaf. Violent.

B (76:05)

They should be.

A (76:06)

I mean, if they. If it's. Well, one. Here's the deal is this list is. It's not the best.

B (76:12)

Okay?

A (76:12)

It's not the best.

B (76:13)

Why? Why do you do it?

A (76:14)

Actually, because I much like. You know, when you were talking about experiencing, I went through like a full, like, existential cris. And I was like, I want to be moved. I want to feel something every day. And a buddy of mine that had passed away, we used to talk about this list.

B (76:27)

And I was like, I'm listening to the records.

A (76:29)

I'm going to listen to an album a day because I'm going to listen to all this music that I had never heard because I was so stuck in the music of like the 90s and like, of course like the Beatles and Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin and all that shit. But it was, it was a way for me to discover.

B (76:44)

Expand your horizons. Exactly. Yeah. I'm only doing that through my 13 year old daughter. So now I'm like expanding into the Billie Eilishes of the world.

A (76:53)

Are you giving her Pavement? Are you giving her.

B (76:55)

She does not. I mean, my 90s flag is so huge behind me and I think as this memoir comes out and as she starts kind of touring with me on book tours or my photo exhibits, she's just going to have to get into. She. To me, I'm just. No, she doesn't like my vintage 90s. She's rebelling in the world of like.

A (77:14)

Like 90s is coming back right now.

B (77:16)

It's coming back and she will surely find it. But I think I'm too much, like, I'm too much of. You know, I'm her mother. Not.

A (77:24)

Yeah, but you're cool. You are cool. No, you're not like, you're not like the dorky mom that's like. No, I swear I was in this band and we played Glastonbury. I swear to God.

B (77:35)

Oh yeah, I was.

A (77:36)

I was the voice of a generation. Like you're not like doing.

B (77:40)

She's gonna find it herself one day and she's gonna.

A (77:42)

Then she's gonna like. I'm telling you, when she gets into her 20s. I fought jazz for years. Cause my dad loved jazz. And then when I was like 21, I was just like so sick of like all the tapes I had in the CD book that I had in my car. And then I was just put on a radio station. I fell in love with it. So it's just. It comes to you when it needs to come.

B (77:57)

Exactly.

A (77:58)

And at least they have like the. I mean, regardless if, you know, we already talked about the beginning. If it's good or bad, the fact that you can just go, I want to listen to Pavement. Boom. And it's right there.

B (78:07)

Oh yeah, exactly. The investigative abilities that. That young people now have. But you know, I also am a big, big believer. And you gotta like work hard to get things. So like my saving up money and then having to go to the record store and talk to the intimidating guy behind the counter, all of that was part of.

A (78:25)

You were cool, dude. Dude, you were adorable. Like, you're acting like you're this like shy chick. You were red hair, you're cool. You're probably in a French Canadian accent at the time too.

B (78:35)

I was just shy.

A (78:37)

But do you have a little bit of the French Canadian attitude?

B (78:41)

Oh, I definitely have the bohemian attitude. But my mother is American and my father was English speaking child of Swiss immigrants. So I'm an English Montrealer. But I went to French school and I was friends with like the few English kids. Which is a funny thing, is that there was like a big a language separation, especially in the 70s and 80s. But I'm in serious English. But I always find it odd that.

A (79:04)

They would do just for laughs in Montreal. I was like, why are. Can we just do it in like Dallas or just something. Please, God, I don't have to.

B (79:12)

Oh, Quebec has particular culture that rains hard comedy. Remember how even like. And I'm not gonna connect France and Quebec. Cause they're very distinct cultures. We know how like Jerry Lewis was big in France. They're very into comedy. And so French people are. Quebec people are funny and they also are super into like metal and fantasy at like Renaissance fair vibes.

A (79:36)

Oh, I know when you go out into the public.

B (79:37)

So expensive.

A (79:39)

Have you seen my rainbow?

B (79:41)

And you're like, all right, exactly. So I just, you know, of course I think you're lucky that you got to go to.

A (79:46)

Oh, I love it.

B (79:48)

So weird. It's like going to another country, you know, A minute away from America.

A (79:52)

No, I have a blast. It's summer camp. I always just found it odd. I remember, biggest show of my life, new faces in front of all the industry. And then 100 people that speak English, but not great.

B (80:03)

But they.

A (80:03)

But they love comedy.

B (80:04)

They love comedy.

A (80:05)

They love comedy. And I'm just like, all right. But it's always. I love it. I mean, I've gone. I love Canada in general, but there is something very beautiful about this little nook.

B (80:15)

Oh, it's so nook. It's so unique. And then it's also got the Jazz Fest, which is amazing in the summer. And then also the Grand Prix. So it's got. Those are the three big takeover festivals. Comedy, jazz and speed. And Euro. Speed Vibe is very.

A (80:30)

An actual speed. Meth is a horrible problem. No kidding.

B (80:34)

No idea if that's true partying.

A (80:36)

Let's talk about some of the songs.

B (80:38)

Okay, so one of the things I notice about Slanted and Enchanted, other than, you know, I haven't listened to it lately, but I totally listened to it when it was out and I would DJ it and then I tour to them. And that's why the first. The top thing Is it just reminds me of that moment. It's the soundtrack of every indie person in the 90s. But what I was surprised about it starts with Summer Babe is that the whole album starts like hit after hit and then it kind of gets funny in the sort of mid. There was a couple of like, skip through tracks for me towards the. I was like, oh. Cause those are the ones that I was so used to hearing it live. And they only played. They're kind of more catchy. So Summer Babe is just like classic Pavement. Incredible. You know, every one of them has the armchair philosopher dude mixed with the broken, jangly guitars and the spirit, which we didn't actually talk about as beyond. Steve Malchimist is the band of like, guys who are just like, you know, maybe not the best drummer, pretty good bass player, but like, it's not about them being the best. It's that they are like loving being wrapped around this semi ridiculous way of making pop music that is deconstructed but not that heavy and not that good. But it's just. They just. The band fuses into this bizarre style unto itself. Even if they're not great players or singers. That's what's. You know.

A (82:02)

How do you feel about this being, in a sense, the world's introduction to them, this as their opening song. Opening song to their first record.

B (82:10)

Yeah, I think it's a good one. I think for me on Crooked Rain, that came after. There's that one that had out on tour with the Smashing Pumpkins. They have no Affection. That song that I guess he changed being politically correct 25 years later. But that song. Oh, called the Range Life.

A (82:31)

Oh, range, Range.

B (82:33)

I Want to Settle Down. To me, that's the int. That's like the. The most inviting Pavement song. And when I think about them, I think of that as their hit also. They make such a great commentary on like Stone Temple Pilots and Smashing Pumpkins and them really identifying themselves as not those dudes.

A (82:52)

Was there beef? Was there beef? It's mainly that of course I feel like. I feel like. And not. Not putting like not. I'm not dissing Billy at all. But now that he's gotten older with the podcasting, you know, he. It's just I always feel like there. There was. There was. I mean, I know there was Manufactured Beef with. With Nirvana and Pearl Jam, but did most of those bands. Does everybody just get along when you guys were playing these festivals? I mean, I mean, obviously, because that's something. Dude, being on tour, being on a festival is so much fun.

B (83:20)

Yeah. You know, I. I had no beef with nobody. I was the Peacekeeping house.

A (83:24)

You're the sweet French Canadian girl taking pictures.

B (83:26)

I. I got along with everybody, but, you know, Courtney was not getting along with everybody, had beef everywhere. Billy had a bit of a. Yeah, he was a bit of a polarizing character, I'd say. There was, you know, the. Definitely the reputation of, like, oh, he's such a nice lead singer. Hence the day of Grohl of the Foo Fighters, you know, rep of, like, so rare that the singer with the big ego is also nice, you know, so I'd say that, sure, there was egos, but it really came down to who you are as a person. Whether. No matter whether you're the drummer or the singer, if you're an easygoing person, like I am, who can connect with anybody, who you get along, but if you're like a pretty extremo person, like those two, they're gonna have problems.

A (84:10)

So maybe not. Maybe not. Beef isn't the right word. Was there, like, healthy competition?

B (84:16)

That's actually what Courtney and Billy have, is healthy competition. A lot of other people, especially in that moment on that tour, Lollapalooza, Sonic Youth, Pavement, it was a very anti.

A (84:27)

They care, like. And that's not a bad thing, is that Sonic Youth, Pavement does not give a shit.

B (84:33)

There was no competition. There was no one trying to be. That was like an old mentality, you know, like that. But the. The mentality that I was. And most of the bands were is. Yeah. And it wasn't even like the All Tides, Raise All Ships because nobody wanted to be raised. Everybody was staying down because they wanted to keep it real and intimate. So, you know, that's what Pavement did. And they did.

A (84:56)

Even though they're, like, trying to keep. Nah, man. We're just trying to do our thing. It's like. But hold on, let me get in my Ferrari.

B (85:02)

Yeah. I mean, you can't deny they did into Ferrari.

A (85:06)

Metallica wanted to be Metallica. They just wanted to make rock and roll. But then, of course, you know what I'm saying, it's like they get the people start buying records.

B (85:13)

We had the Metallica managers, Q Prime, who were Def Leppard managers. They. They wanted to be.

A (85:19)

Oh, for sure. They wanted to make Thriller. I mean, Def Leppard got Mutt Lang. They made. Which, I mean, listen, overproduced, great, fun record. Of course, is it the rock and roll Shania Twain album that came out a few years later? Of course. I mean, but it wasn't hair metal, which got so Big back to the.

B (85:36)

Alternative react the 80s.

A (85:39)

And then. Even then, I always say this on the podcast. The reaction to when new metal and all that got so big. You get the New York scene with Interpol. Yes. You get the stroke. So it's. It's always been like that. But there. I mean, that was the thing. I get you. What I was saying about. Even though. Because I. It did seem like Kurt didn't want the success. He didn't want to be on Time magazine. He just wanted to make music. And maybe that is probably. It's probably one of the reasons that he ended, you know, the way that it ended.

B (86:06)

Yes.

A (86:07)

For sure. Even. Even Pearl Jam, who became. Who's still an arena band. They. It's like they. They just. It seems like they still are just about the music. And of course, it grows out and you have these big fans, but it's like, you know, you have to know that when you're making a brilliant record, there's going to be money.

B (86:25)

Yeah.

A (86:26)

Thrown at you.

B (86:26)

Yeah. I mean. And R.E.M. back to that. That's a good example of, like, how you can be a. And you too. Big bands who obviously are doing it for the music and who. Who are playing the game enough while being respectful to the integrity of themselves and others. You know, and not tortured. Some people are just tortured. Tortured people are tortured and tortured. Like self.

A (86:47)

You never met Kurt. You never.

B (86:48)

I mean, I'm assuming I saw them play in tiny clubs and. Yeah. And we were like, in the same backstage areas and stuff. Pre. Me being in the band when I was the ticket girl. Yeah. But no, I never. I. I mean, I was in the same room a few times.

A (87:03)

That's so crazy. And then you think that's like. To bring it back to Pavement, which is like. Even with Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain came out. It's like this is a much better produced record than the first, you know, first album. And it's still. It still keeps the same vibe. And I mean, it's. A few years later. It's like, why aren't. Why did they never get bigger? Like, why is it Pavement?

B (87:22)

You're talking.

A (87:23)

Yeah. Just trying to bring.

B (87:24)

I feel like they were. They're kind of as big as you could have been without signing to a major label, without ever having a hit song on the radio. I guess they had videos on mtv, but I actually don't know.

A (87:33)

Cut your Hair was pretty big. Rain was pretty big. Gold sound.

B (87:37)

Yeah. So by that moment. Because that's the same album. Correct.

A (87:40)

This is all yout Hate.

B (87:41)

Exactly. So if we're here, we are in 1992 with slanted and Enchanted. This is the real introduction to who they are. Style wise, lyrically, production wise. The song I don't even understand. No Life Life singed her. Is that what the name of that track?

A (87:59)

Number three, I think, I think I thought it was new. Life Signer.

B (88:03)

Signer. I can. I must have like written it down wrong. I'm just like looking at my notes.

A (88:07)

No, you're. You're killing it.

B (88:08)

Track three.

A (88:10)

By the way, if you want to listen to this, Shan, you got the record. Just in case. Do you have it without the. The commercials?

B (88:16)

Yeah, I have.

A (88:17)

Do you sign into your account?

B (88:18)

That's. That's okay.

A (88:19)

It's more that you want the commercials in. They're not paying us. We don't want the commercial in here. Track three is. Yeah. No, no. Life Signer, which I. I'm just going to mention. Trigger Kite, Wounded Kite. Because that was the song that I heard when I started listening this record that I was like, oh, this is. This is pure pop. This, this is like literally as good as. This is like that thing you do just with these guitars and. And it really, it was really what made me realize like how talented he is and how the band is as a rock writer.

B (88:49)

Which song was that?

A (88:50)

That was the second track. Trigger Cut. Wounded, Wounded Kite.

B (88:53)

Okay.

A (88:55)

Do we have it in the headphones?

B (88:57)

Yeah. This is the third track. Oh yeah.

A (89:02)

Let's just wait for it.

B (89:04)

Which track is.

A (89:05)

What track is this?

B (89:05)

3.

A (89:06)

This is track 3. Oh, this is her song.

B (89:07)

So this is the one that I like.

A (89:09)

But even if. Get rid of the guitars and just this, this is the Hollies.

B (89:16)

Oh, for sure. And they do La La La's Oo Loo Loo Loo. Ooh.

A (89:20)

No, they're.

B (89:21)

I mean they're. They're like 50s pop kids. It's like. It's the cutest about them.

A (89:25)

These garbling words and like.

B (89:27)

And they also had that overdriven scream thing that was like a very like also kind of like almost like locomotion. So like. Yeah, they have like a romantic kind of Beach Boys, Good boys with button down shirt vibes. Which is I think also what makes Pavements so cool is that they're not dangerous to anybody. You know, this is not like predators.

A (89:48)

They're cool guys.

B (89:49)

They're like. Well, I mean, I just mean just like look at what you're wearing. They dress like your dad. They're just like such like non threatening humans. And as people in terms of on tour. Yeah, they were just nice guys that didn't take themselves too seriously. You know I was at all catering tent and the after parties with them and they're just like fun. Like one of them was the bartender at Great Jones. All through the bass player Mark Beibold. He was at Great Jones at the like Southern restaurant and throughout all of Pavement he was the bartender and they were the cool bartenders. They're just the nice guys and not threatening and just sweet. And I remember the big. The funniest story that's in our Lollapalooza tour diary and Spin magazine is that But Courtney who is very smart, she chose to be competitive with Steve Malcolmus on the whole tour around the New York Times crossword and that every day they would compete of who could get it done. And Steve Malchimus was probably the only person on tour as smart as Courtney. As far as just like academic brain natural. I mean I'm sure I'm assuming Malcolmus did like advanced university education. He's very well read whatever he is. So that was the competitive nature on that tour with Pavement and Hole was who do the New York Times crossword puzzle.

A (91:07)

Who was any who Stephen was the.

B (91:09)

I think he had more patience. I feel like Courtney just you know didn't you know she was doing 17 other things including talking onto the Internet. She was talking in blogs back then or whatever. There are chat rooms.

A (91:21)

I have the like aol.

B (91:23)

Yeah she was like chapping daily thing. I didn't even know what she was doing with this like toaster looking thing in the production office. She would like be on this screen. I had never even been on the Internet at that moment.

A (91:33)

But then even see him just looking at it doesn't say where he went to school. Maybe it didn't but it says like but he's born in Santa Monica and then his family moves to Stockton, California which is not.

B (91:42)

Yeah sort of Southern California, the best area.

A (91:44)

That's like where Nate Diaz is from if I'm not mistaken. It's like a fighting shitty California town. And then that actually you know for him to then probably get into literature and probably wanting to read and yeah I'm seeing this now. It's like he went to. To. He did go to University of Virginia. Majored in history. Wasn't this jockey who later he later front of band called the Silver Jews. Oh this is real. Okay.

B (92:09)

Yeah. Yeah that is real.

A (92:11)

Great name by the way. Yeah Silver Jews. But yeah it's so I think there is when there's nothing to do you know, you were very lucky because you were in Montreal, which is one of the major cities in Canada. And. And. But certain people like. Like you either get. Here's the thing, because it's very. I'm pretty sure, like this is pretty. Stockton's pretty close to where corn's from. So it can go. Want it either way. You can go the intellectual or you could go. Which is great lyrics, by the way.

B (92:40)

But also like bro culture versus cool nerd culture. These guys are cool nerds. Very cool. And they make nerd cool. And that's.

A (92:48)

Let's bring it back.

B (92:49)

I also love.

A (92:50)

Yeah, what else you got?

B (92:50)

The next song, in the Mouth of the Desert, it has that kind of la la la, la la la la la. That's when they kind of tap into the kind of like 60s do Oppie vibe.

A (93:02)

I love the lyric too. I've been crowned the king of it.

B (93:04)

Exactly.

A (93:05)

That is all we have.

B (93:06)

Yeah, exactly. And I could wait to hear. I could. I could wait to hear the words. They're diamond sharp today. Yeah. Very catchy song. And also that very cool tripped out lyrics.

A (93:17)

It's a deeper kind, for sure. On the record, I think it might.

B (93:20)

Be one of my favorites.

A (93:28)

Just three chords, the whole song. Yeah.

B (93:37)

I mean, I like a guy like this sounding so lackadaisical and he's been crowned the king of something. Like what? Like he. Yeah, I love that song. I was actually very surprised when listening to the record again how much I liked this track. Conduit for Sale.

A (93:53)

Conduit for Sale.

B (93:54)

It's like funny. Jangle jangle. And it's like when you really highlight all the people who pretend either couldn't tune or play their guitars, but kind of like pretend they can't play and tune their guitars. So it's like.

A (94:08)

Yeah, I mean, this is. This is. Reminds me of like the Minutemen.

B (94:12)

Yeah. So this has a bit of punk and it's like kind of a desperate, like, I'm punky, I'm desperation. Literally. He's saying, I'm trying, I'm trying, I'm trying. So it's just. It's got more of a vulnerable, weird, visceral thing about it that I like.

A (94:25)

What's so funny is like usually I would be asking the questions about your career from every song, but we've gone through so much your career. And I was like. Because I already know what the question would have been. But I was like, nah, she already answered it.

B (94:35)

Which is, can I play my instrument?

A (94:36)

No, it's not. No, it's the sale. The word sale is the word you have to latch on because I don't know conduit. I know onto it I'm not, but I would. But you've already kind of, you've mentioned, you basically talked about it where it's like getting a five year contract where it's like do you want to keep selling? Not selling out, but would you want to keep going? And you were like, nah, fuck that.

B (94:54)

Well actually that's funny you're saying this because when we get towards the end, the song that I want to recite the lyrics like it's a poem is Fame Thrower. So instead of Flamethrower, it's Fame Throwa. And I'm going to read that at the end of this session. Which is definitely his commentary on. On the sellout thing. Yes. So we got Conduit for sale. Zurich is stained. Completely forgotten track. Like I listened to it, there was nothing about it that even had like remained in my brain since the 90s. So I kind of must have skipped it then and I kind of skipped it this time.

A (95:29)

It's interesting that he picked that place, I mean just to have that in, in the title. I'm assuming because I don't even know like Pavement. I'm assuming they, they did tour, but it's like do you think they played so Zurich at that? Are they a Zurich band by 92?

B (95:44)

Maybe they had been to Europe once. I don't know. I mean it might, it feels like it might have been more like an international political thing.

A (95:50)

It could also just be a funny word, way to say Zurich. It sounds funny the way I say, I always, what's up? Dusseldorf is always just a funny country I always go back to. I just went to Zurich and let me tell you something, it rules.

B (96:03)

So I am Swiss citizen, my father, my family Swiss. Auf Dermauer is Swiss German. And my family is 1000 years old Switzerland that built the wall that stood up to the Austro Hungarian empire to make Switzerland. And my daughter has her Swiss passport and her daughter will have. Because it's all like genetically coded there of who gets the passports. It's very intense.

A (96:27)

Wow.

B (96:28)

Yes, my family is very Swiss. I am 50%, 100% pure blood Swiss. And I brought my daughter last summer on a pilgrimage of Swiss Germany. Swiss German. That territory, it's very different in the French and Italian. But that Zurich area, which is where my family's from, they're from the Alps right behind Zurich which is where the geographical center of Switzerland began. But anyway, yes, I'm Very, very way.

A (96:56)

Cooler than my family dude building shit.

B (96:59)

Chelsea's little wrists Wild is zany don't remember it, but I like it now, is what I said.

A (97:05)

It's like a mid album palette cleanser as well.

B (97:07)

Yeah, the mid album kind of lulls for me, but that's a cute one. Loretta's scars out of tune guitars effortless Afraid to commit yet so committed to their thing.

A (97:17)

But I thought it was probably out of this record. It's probably the most emotional song on here. I think it has the most.

B (97:23)

Right. It actually had some. Well, also, like a person at the center of it, perhaps.

A (97:30)

Yeah, it just. It was. It felt like it was. It just. You know, it's not just like, capable of like this, like the. The. The ironic hooks. It's. It's got like. It almost was like kind of like tugging on your heartstrings. I wouldn't say it's like forcing you to feel something, but the lyric, like, how can I make my body shed for you? I mean, that's just. That's a really glimpse of like a vulnerable.

B (97:52)

Yeah.

A (97:52)

You know, you wouldn't expect that from. It's just from when you. It's. If you're just taking it at the surface level, the guitar, we said of the music and the attitude and the singing, it's like you forget that. It's like. No, he's. He's really saying some, you know, raw emotion in that.

B (98:05)

That's good. I'm glad you pulled that out of that, because I actually was saying that the next one was the closest thing to a ballad. Here I was dressed for success, and it's like sweet as pie. And that's when, like, there's a feeling of like, I won't hurt you. I'm here. You know, I. I'm not going to kiss ass, and I won't try too hard to win, but I'm here. Like, there was something really sweet about that song that I thought that was sort of like, vulnerable in a different way of just like, I'm a good guy.

A (98:31)

Not. Not to stop for a second. But I want to talk about your solo stuff. Was that, like, when you were talking about the. The. The depth and. And like, you know, when you started making the. The solo. First solo record and then you've done three or you've done. Only did two. Okay. Like, what was. What was lacking in whole. And of course, like, you were just touring with Smashing Pumpkins, right? But. But it's like, what was. What was lacking tracking there that you needed like were all those songs you've been writing for years? And it was like, I gotta get these out.

B (99:02)

Most of them had been four track demos while I was living in la, in Hull, actually. When Billy came in to do a bit of Celebrity Skin with us, he co wrote two of the hits on that album. He, as my mentor who had found me was like, melissa, do you have any songs? And I brought in my demos, actually two whole. A lot of them all ended up on my. My solo records. But I have just been writing. Courtney Offey often accuses me of like having withheld my talent when I was in that band, which is not true. It's more that like, she's the force and she needed to lead it. You know, me bringing my songs. Like there was a song that Billy was like, put Melissa's song on the record and we'd track the whole thing. And it was. It came down to who's gonna sing my part, me or her. And it didn't make the record, obviously, but that's fine. I didn't need to have my song on the record. Courtney's the lead singer. Yeah. So I was writing already and then by the time I left the Pumpkins, the Pumpkins had refueled me with what I really needed, which was be a heavy musician, like a really heavy guitar, heavy drums, hence all my collaborators. On my solo record, it's the Queens of the Stone Age guys. It's the helmet guy. It's.

A (100:10)

I love helmets so much.

B (100:11)

Rocket from the Crypt drummer. It's like a million cool. It's just the heaviest guys I. And it's like, those are my people, sonically. So Hole had all the female power moves and all the brilliant lyrics. I mean, Courtney's like so much smarter, hence the New York Times crossroads. She has something that I have zero of. I'm not a lyricist. I happen to have written a book and my parents were both literary genius journalists. But I am not a lyricist. Like my expertise, I am like a diary writer. I like writing and talking to you, but. But I'm not. So. What I was most missing in whole was being a heavy musician. There's a song on Celebrity Skin called Use Once and Destroy, which Courtney would call Melissa's song, that was the closest thing to what I am as a bass player. So by the time I got to make my record, which I funded myself, I produced with Chris Goss from Queens and I just like made my dream album, got all my favorite guitar players, got all my favorite drummers, and then I sold it to Capitol Records as a finished record. So, like, I had made an integrity self finance, self produced, not one person speak to me. And so that's how I made both my records, actually.

A (101:23)

You really don't have an ego, man. I mean, I know we all have egos, but it's like you're very, like, it's. It's, you know, even, like I said, just. Even though it is give the credit now. Courtney's that and that's this. But me, it's like I just got to do this thing and be okay with that.

B (101:36)

Follow, like what. What is burning inside of me? What I have to offer. And I don't look at lists. I don't judge what I have to offer on a list of success. I judge when I have given it to outside, when I've taken it out of me and put it out there. I have succeeded no matter whoever likes.

A (101:53)

You're not making it for success. You're making it because you have to make it.

B (101:55)

Exactly, exactly. I guess so. And that was the same with the book, for sure. And then. Yeah, so then I got to like, you know, have like a big. And Capital. That was too 2004. It was still kind of the 90s when I put out that first record. And then for me, it was my second record out of Our Minds. Which Roadrunner put out? Cause Capital. The guy who signed me, Andy Slater, who was the one who said after he saw me play, he heard my early versions of my record and saw me play a little showcase show in la. And his line was, who knew the bass player had something to say? Sign her. So Annie's the later who had discovered Fiona Apple. And he was like a big great A and R, like an actual great record. He. He now manages exclusively Kat Power, but he had, like, produced Fiona Apple. He had, like, done Macy Gray. He was a real visionary guy. And that's when those guys started being ousted from these labels and replaced by actual finance people.

A (102:54)

Yeah.

B (102:55)

So when he left Capitol, I lost my contract, but I had already recorded most of my second record. So I got to finish. Finish it, sell it to Roadrunner and finally be on a cool metal label, which I was really excited about.

A (103:06)

Yeah, I was gonna say it's like, isn't Roadrunner like.

B (103:08)

No, it's Hypo Negative. It's like Rob Zombie, Sepultura. So I got to be on a metal record. And for me, my second record, out of Our Minds, which I also got to play in all these metal festivals, not to do with Roadrunner, but it was a Heavier record. My first one sounded a little still more in the 90s, pop rock. And then I got to really Right. As a bass player, like, with loud volume. I'm really proud of my second record, and I am recording something to put out next year that's more of a total, like, decadent indulgence of covers of my favorite electronic industrial music on a base. Yeah.

A (103:49)

Interesting.

B (103:50)

Yes. So I'm making music just to have fun, not because, you know. And I hope people who like the same shit I like, like it, but I. And I'm back in the studio because I retired and now I'm like. I also wrote the book so I could fall back in love with music. And I. Oh, my God, I love it more than.

A (104:05)

Do you see it. So you see a third act coming up then?

B (104:07)

Yeah. Well, I mean, the record and the photography. I mean, the memoir and the photography is my comeback as a photographer, as a writer. So introducing myself as a new thing, which I think I naturally, I was probably. Many people said, you're a better photographer than bass player anyway. You should have just done that.

A (104:24)

But I. I wanted to ask this. So if you don't meet. What your husband's Tom.

B (104:29)

Tony.

A (104:29)

Tony. If you don't meet Tony.

B (104:32)

Yeah.

A (104:32)

And you don't have the kid.

B (104:33)

Y.

A (104:34)

Where do you think. Do you think you would still been in bands and just kind of.

B (104:38)

I had already been, like, saying no. Like, I. That's a great question. I mean, I was, you know, playing my last show for my last record. I was 39, pregnant, and the only girl on a heavy metal festival in Toronto stage with, like, Mastodon, who are one of my favorites. Mastodon, Motorhead. Like, it was the most ridiculous bill. And I was pregnant and only girl on the bill. And I was kind of at the peak for me. I was like, as good as it was gonna get. I guess I would have made another record, but no, I think that, like, when I was done with Hole in the pumpkins and my 90s thing, I just needed to change it up. And now I get to return to music starving, you know, starving from music. It was like, oh, my God. Not playing my bass for that long has been torturous for me.

A (105:27)

You really haven't picked it up?

B (105:28)

I don't play. Like, I'm not. I'm an all or nothing. I just, like, do it a thousand percent or not.

A (105:34)

Do you still have bass?

B (105:35)

Oh, my God, I have so many basses, it's ridiculous. I have a whole storage space.

A (105:38)

And your daughter never goes, mom, why did you Ever play these things?

B (105:41)

Yeah, she does, actually. When I started writing my memoir, before I even started, she said, out of nowhere, wait, why don't you play music anymore? You'd be so much cooler and. And you'd have more fun. Because I had really become, like, I'm going to, like, serve my daughters. Serve indie rock. I'm going to go, like, be an art factory producer. I don't know. Anyway, I'm going to have fun in 2020.

A (106:02)

I hope so. I do. It's. It's. You're so cool. All right, let's. Let's do a few more songs and we'll get you out of here.

B (106:07)

Two States is kind of weird. It's like this weird lo fi thing where I guess it's his Americana commentary, because all he says about two states is 40 million daggers. 40 million daggers. We want two states. There's no culture, there's no spies, you know? So it's his. Some American history thing he's talking about there.

A (106:28)

I wrote short, punchy, punkish vibe. Still melodic.

B (106:33)

Yep, always melodic. Okay, we're at. I think I'm gonna end with Fame Thrower, so I can read up, like, a cool poem. And then just to tell you the last few songs, songs. Jackal's False Gray of the lonesome era. I don't know, it just like. He ends the album kind of with. I've got one holy life to give. I've got one holy life to live. So that's it.

A (106:56)

I think. I think our singer kind of feels, like, exhausted sounding. It's almost like. It's like if the session is kind of like winding down, and so are us as the listener. Now, it's not bad. You mentioned something. I don't know if you were about to say something. Something. But it's. It's the same thing I always talk about where it's like. With it's just certain records, it's. If you like, weird example, but use your illusion. Both records are too much. If they would have taken the best off of both those records and put it in one album, you'd be like, this is amazing. Is it Guns and Roses? Appetite for Destruction? No, but it's a good record. And it's like. And I think you get to a place at 14 songs where I'm not tired because it's only 39 minutes. Minutes.

B (107:37)

Oh, that is.

A (107:38)

It's pretty short for 14 songs. Well, they're not writing like. They're not writing like, you know, it's true.

B (107:42)

They are very little dates, but if.

A (107:45)

We could have cut up, you know, I like. I'm going to ask this question later if it's a no skip record. I think there are a few skips on this side.

B (107:51)

Yeah.

A (107:51)

But. Yeah. So wrap it up with. With fame.

B (107:53)

Okay, so I'm gonna pretend I'm a. I'm a. I'm a poet.

A (107:56)

Please. You trust me. You don't have to pretend anything.

B (107:59)

La la la la la la la la Fame throw Pass out the gold the diamond watch the last reward all the things we had before you sold us out and took it all Headborne cries from zenith sluts Astral rights from dead end ruts these kids are sick and wars One of the nation's spies One of our first recruits Click with her leather thighs One of our first recruits how can you know? In the distant lies a grower knee rode off King fame Throwa son of a groupie Red worn Sexon spent his cash convincing us that the desert was a starscape and sold our lives for a satellite so we could cry naked naked fool Foul. Naked foul.

A (108:51)

Oh, fuck. You dropped right at the end. That's what I would have done. I would have done the same thing too. Naked foul Naked fool's good too, though.

B (108:57)

Either way, I mean, because whoever you. He's talking about, like the, like, what.

A (109:01)

Do you think he's doing?

B (109:02)

He's like talking about a snake salesman. It's about the sellout. There's something going on with the record industry, but also creepy people growing. Yeah. King fame Throwa son of a groupie Red worn sexon spent his life cash convincing us that the desert was a starscape. I love that line.

A (109:20)

Yeah.

B (109:21)

The desert was a starscape and sold our lives for a satellite so we could cry these lines naked naked foul. I mean, that is cool. That is true poetry.

A (109:31)

I love that you said it could be about, like the record company. It could be about, you know, it's just being an artist and trying to make art and just like somebody come up and be like, you're gonna be the biggest thing. And if you do this and you just make the record sound like that, it's gonna be amazing and blah, blah, blah, but it's not exactly what you wanna do. I love that, like, makes the desert feel. What was it? Makes the desert feel like a starry desert.

B (109:52)

Was trying. This creepy dude was trying to convince us that the desert was a star. But so cool. And then the other one is the amazing line is headborne cries from zenith Astral rights from dead end ruts these kids are sick and wars. I mean, he's a poet. I mean, so this is like some beat poetry stuff that he must have written in his journal. And then he finds a way, like no one was really doing this. I wish they were doing more of this, actually. And that's. I think what I like like the most about Pavement is do you think.

A (110:25)

Anybody'S carrying the torch of them right now?

B (110:28)

There are some. Cool. I will say that's a great question because I have this friend, Elvis Perkins, who's like hearing the sort of like folk. Folk people write, you know, like the way that Bob Dylan.

A (110:41)

Yeah, that's a very Dylan esque. Maybe more like, you know, not. I wouldn't say because we've done so many Dylan records on this and I'm finally starting to get him because we did it the wrong way. We started with like Time out of Mind and I. I was never a Dylan guy and. And so now it's like I'm. We're finally starting to get into the records that you should listen to first before you go to the older ones. But you just hear the. Some of his lyrics and you're like, it just. You can hear it in so many other. I mean, just so many other people, especially, you know, from doing this podcast. It's just like, oh, you can hear his influence all the time.

B (111:13)

Oh, yeah.

A (111:14)

And I could definitely. Definitely and definitely from everything you've said about him and just being like a beat poet or intellectual. Of course he loved Dylan.

B (111:22)

Yeah, of course. And that's what I kind of like is that Pavement has like a play on a bit of a folk thing, you know, and there's folk tradition all over the. I mean, I'm sure he likes Neil Young too. You know, like, I'm just like, these are things that are not my legacy. But I'm always kind of in awe of people who really hone into their lyrics, like quite. I mean, master lyricists are very valuable and I am not one, but I really do admire that in people.

A (111:51)

Yeah, this has been great. Let's do the final question to get you out of here. You still have 45 interviews to do this week, probably.

B (112:00)

We're just announcing the memoir tomorrow. So I will start my treadmill soon.

A (112:05)

Are you prepared to answer a lot of the same questions?

B (112:09)

Yeah, I just. Funny even saying it to answering some of your questions. Questions today.

A (112:13)

I'm like, oh, I hope I didn't ask the ones that.

B (112:15)

No, no. I realized. But it's those formative. It's the. No, you didn't ask the wrong questions. It is this weird thing about the beer bottle and this like, how the kind of like Cinderella lost slipper vibe of how my. My entry into the big 90s rock scene happened. It's so defining of my story of the fan that plucked out of nowhere. It's literally Cinderella overnight.

A (112:39)

Like, really? Is it really? And also. But also, you know, there's a. There's a. The way that you wrote the book. I want to give us a big compliment from. You know, I was watching an interview from. From Tarantino and he was talking about, like, biopics. He's like, I don't like biopics. I like when it's just about a thing, like a section of that person's life. Like even like the way they just did that Bruce Bruce movie about Nebraska.

B (113:02)

It's like, you don't want to see Dylan movie. That helped me, sure, fall in love with Dylan for sure.

A (113:07)

But that's the thing is that you could have told the entire entire even. But you literally talked about this like 10.

B (113:14)

Was it 10 years, just the decade that defined me and my generation. And then mainly I worked really hard to just bring the reader into the room. I don't do a lot of hem and hawing and analyzing of nothing. I'm just like, this is what's on the table. This is what the person was wearing. This is what it smelled like. This is what I felt like, like. So I don't do a lot of they call it in writing, show, don't tell. I'm not telling anybody anything. I'm just showing. I'm just walking them into that room. Time capsule with me. But yeah, I loved writing that version of writing.

A (113:46)

Well, I can't wait to hear from 2001 on to 2005. This is what happened. I never got to the thing interview, which is that your husband, like, shook your baby's hand while still in you. Is that fucking true?

B (114:02)

Yes.

A (114:02)

Good God. What's up, baby?

B (114:06)

This is. You know, when I joined a band of junkies, which was like a legendary, known to be junkie. So my mother's friends were all very concerned. Is your daughter going to become a heroin addict because she's joining this band.

A (114:19)

Sure.

B (114:19)

And my mother said, oh, no, no, no. Melissa's too afraid of needles. Which is true. And fast forward to I'm having a baby. And when I found out that a hospital gives you an iv, I decided to have a home birth. I was like, there's no way.

A (114:32)

Way.

B (114:32)

So I had never had an IV before. Like, no way.

A (114:36)

How do they give blood? Like, not you give blood. How do they test for, you know, your liver enzymes and shit?

B (114:41)

I mean, maybe getting blood taken, but having an IV stuck in your arm is my. Anyway, the point is, I had a home birth, which is what you asked me about, and it was magic. And my daughter came out, popped out her hand, and grabbed my husband, who, because it was a home birth, he was catching the child coming out of me in the bathtub. And she held hands with her eyes wide open because it was a one hour birth, because she wasn't so. She wasn't even tired. She was just like, boop. Hi. Grabbed his hand. He's like. And we have it on film. She's holding my hand. She's holding my hand.

A (115:13)

Hilarious.

B (115:14)

Eye contact with me. Oh, dude, it was so cute.

A (115:17)

That's awesome. You're gonna have a great time on this. And I'm really excited for the book to come out. I'm excited for the picture book.

B (115:22)

Thank you.

A (115:23)

Thank you for taking the time out to talk to you.

B (115:24)

Pleasure. You're oiling my wheels. My return to talk wheels.

A (115:29)

And I'll say this too, I get nervous sometimes when I'm talking to people that I respect, especially musicians that I love, and you could not have been sweeter and nicer. So I think you're gonna do great on the tour and I'm so excited for you.

B (115:42)

Thank you.

A (115:42)

And please come back. We'll figure it out. I'll come up to upstate. We've got another 131 records left, so we got more time.

B (115:51)

And then I will send you maybe know some of my favorites by now. There's some things. Heavy things is what I like too.

A (115:57)

Got some heavy stuff coming on, dude.

B (115:58)

Great.

A (115:59)

All right.

B (115:59)

Thank you very much.

A (116:00)

Hold on. I got to ask you these final questions. The final questions. What's your favorite song on this record?

B (116:08)

Lyrically's Fame Throwa. And then I guess it is Summer Babe opening track. It makes me happy.

A (116:15)

I love that. We already said, is this a skip record or is it no skip record. There are some skips. What do you think was your least favorite song on the album?

B (116:22)

Oh, I took note of that. It was somewhere in that. That sort of three.

A (116:25)

Don't put away your notes yet.

B (116:27)

Three quarter mark. Yes. This was definitely. I've said I don't remember this one from then. They must have never. Zurich is stained. And weirdly, I'm Swiss, but I wrote in my notes. Did not retain this. Must have skipped it back then. Or they never played it live.

A (116:42)

Shitting on your own land. You're a self hating Jew. We got so many of those. What can you fuck to this race record?

B (116:53)

I think college kids really drunk in like a parents like living room with a bunch of other kids in there could maybe.

A (117:04)

But this isn't something that you.

B (117:06)

This is not deep romance, sensuality. This is really kind of like loose, light, messy.

A (117:13)

And also it's. This is like we had when we were doing the Jeff Buckley record. Our guest said something, he was like, it's even though the record, you could, you know, musically fuck to it. It's just lyrically you're going to be paying attention to what he's saying. You know what I mean?

B (117:28)

Distracting some people.

A (117:30)

Yeah, it's just, it's just there's the words, you're, you know, even that poetry you said, it's like you, you going to hear that.

B (117:36)

You're going to use your mind.

A (117:38)

Exactly.

B (117:38)

You know what? I need to be present for someone who. Probably not you, you're never going to have a baby. But one thing, one of my takeaway lessons when I had my home birthday, birth. Don't use your mind. Don't talk, don't listen. And having birth is very much like having sex of like this thing is not gonna help nothing.

A (117:56)

Oh God.

B (117:57)

Just be in your body and Yeah, I guess like this is a very heady band. This is like all about Steve's brain.

A (118:03)

It's not, it's not made for fucking. No, I'll say that.

B (118:06)

Definitely not.

A (118:07)

All right. And how would you give like the elevator pitch to get someone to listen to this record?

B (118:10)

Oh, it is the, the essence of the independent, intelligent, semi romantic, funny 90s man. And if you want to like meet a cool type of guy, great to date, great to have dinner parties with, great to have a kid with, probably.

A (118:36)

Is this your husband? Is this your husband all in one?

B (118:41)

He actually loved Pavement in college too. Yes. It's just like, it's a very particular good. Like that's a terrible pitch, but it's like.

A (118:48)

No, that was perfect.

B (118:50)

But also, if you want to know, an essence of a type of moment and a type of person and a movement of like really good men. Which. You know what? We could use some more of those. Sure.

A (119:01)

I completely agree with you. I think this is, you know, if this is 1992 and just that whole air about the attitude and the disillusionment and the questioning, like what's going on in life and it's just, it really is like he's the Bob Dylan of the 90s.

B (119:20)

And not pretentious. Cause there's a lot of pretentious stuff in the 90s. Like a very showboaty, which I was even in this DIY indie vibe. It's inviting in that. It's like you don't even really have to play your instrument. You can kind of feel like you're included in a thing that maybe you could even do. I think a lot of college college kids should get into this and learn how to play guitars that don't sound perfect.

A (119:43)

I agree. I agree. I think whereas like Beck's Loser, like we mentioned earlier, is. Is like really like. Because lyrically it's a lot of just, you know, rhyming things. But it's like obviously that chorus is just. Was like this anthem for everybody. It would be that, you know. And then he eventually went on to make. I mean, incredible and. And lyrically he's. He's really fleshed out and written so many beats. Beautiful. Like, well thought out things. I feel like this is kind of like the. The. The side piece that goes with that. That basically, you know, breaks down that I'm. I'm a loser, baby chorus and just kind of breaks it into the full record and.

B (120:19)

And yes.

A (120:19)

Yeah, man. Dude, this is awesome. I can't thank you enough for coming on.

B (120:23)

Is that the last question?

A (120:23)

That's the last question. Unless you ask any more. I could do another three hours. We're already at two right now.

B (120:28)

Guided date Somehow promote away.

A (120:30)

Please talk about the book one last time. And then we'll do it. And then. And then we'll do it at the beginning as well.

B (120:34)

My memoir, Even the Good Girls Will Cry, a 90s rock memoir, is coming out on my birthday, March 17, 2026. Announcing it here now. And I spent the last few years reflecting on the decade that defined me and my generation. As a follow up to that memoir, I'm also gonna be putting out a book of my 90s photography. Cause of my arsenal of archive from that time. All scanned, all ready to go, museum exhibit as well as books. So 2026, it's going to be a.

A (121:03)

Big year for you, dude.

B (121:04)

Keep an eye out for the woman, the mother coming out of retirement. I'm going to spread the love of pro human, pro analog, pro art, pro past as a futurist, where I believe we can have all that now and we can all. And it's my duty to just get people jazzed and excited about what that old time. It's never going to happen again. Again. The way that we lived in the 90s, in our 20s and in our youth and when we had those big dreams of bands and when we weren't so corroded and corrupted by this social media liking fame thing where you really just were whoever you were and your friends thought you were and that was it. There was no like outside. It was so pure in our self value and very empowered at time for women, for alternative freaks, for poets. And I really, really. My commitment to my 14 year old daughter and all the girls and future generations. I just want to go on book tours and talk to people, universities, radio shows, podcasts. Just about what we lost, but what we can get back and what we can preserve is the number one thing preserve in that time and culture. And in music, of course, it's a love letter to music, most importantly. So I also am going on just to like serve my muse, which is music. So it's just. Yeah, it's a big, It's a big 2026 for me. And I'll be in all, every shape from writing to photography to releasing this EP of covers of weird things.

A (122:38)

I guess the last question, do you ever see Hole doing a reunion?

B (122:42)

Obviously I've been asked that question so much and I said no for well over a decade, maybe even 15 years. Yeah, but this is the new, this.

A (122:53)

Is the 2026 verge, dude.

B (122:55)

And Courtney and I, like I said she's putting out, she's made a super solo record and we are talking about, you know, I sang on a record, I went, I'm supporting her on her record. And she's also putting out a memoir in the next year or so too. So I can see Courtney and I coming back as this sort of like 90s wonder twin thing.

A (123:15)

Oh, dude, it would be. You'd be head gliding Coachella. Like it wouldn't just be like you could do the club run if you want to do for like a warm up. But you're gonna get the festival offers.

B (123:24)

I mean if I'm open to it. Now that I have done my work and I've done my healing and my.

A (123:32)

Cool mother, how great would have been if you're, if you're, if she would have put her arm out, it would have been rock fingers instead of just like, yo, hit me up, Dash. Yeah.

B (123:40)

Yeah. Yes. I. I mean Courtney and I are in touch and I'm excited for her comeback and I'll be there. Well be side by side in some way or other.

A (123:48)

Good. And like I said, everything you've done, even from everything I've read, it's like you've done it with such grace. So it's not like it's bad blood. And that makes me happy because, you know, it's, dude, you're a rock star. You're one of the coolest people I've had on the show. So thank you so much for coming on.

B (124:01)

Thank you.

A (124:03)

What did I tell you? What did I tell you? The one and only Melissa ofdemar follower on Instagram @xmadmx and get that book when it comes out, which is called Even the Good Girls will cry. A 90s rock memoir. I'm telling you, it's expected March 17, 2026. And maybe we're getting a whole reunion. You heard it here first. Follow her, support her, dig everything now. We just listened to pavement from 1992 for a new music pick this week. Distrokid picked a track called Real Good Love by Pete Yorn. You can find links to the music on our website the500podcast.com and and if you are in a band and were directly influenced by one of these albums or artists and you want your music featured on the 500, send your song to 500podcastmail.com next week. It's Biggie Smalls, Notorious B.I.G. ready to Die from 1992. Do your homework, it's a goodie. And hopefully Emily gets us a code red on the Kagan meter. See you then. Sometimes we get high, sometimes we get low Moving so fast but nowhere to go I don't know if it's all the same.

B (125:18)

Even myself got no one.

A (125:20)

To blame you know where the good.

B (125:25)

Is I the broker love and it's so hard to find.

A (125:39)

Some say fast and some say slow.

B (125:43)

Come to find out nobody knows Looking at you I.

A (125:50)

Can'T help but smile Hope you don't.

B (125:54)

You don't mind if I stay here a while?

A (125:59)

You know where the good is I the record love and it's so hard to find you know where the good is I so hard to find so hard to find mind hard to find it's been on my mind oh damn that it feels all right cuz real.

B (126:38)

Good loving is so hard to find Some grow young and some grow old.

A (126:55)

It'S all on us truth be told it's all good and I can't complain.

B (127:05)

Give me the chance to do it.

A (127:07)

Again you know where good is I the brooker Loving is so hard to find you know where the good is I the brook of love and it's.

B (127:24)

So hard to find.

A (127:49)

The 500 keeping it flee see for the Fleece Nation on the 5 Next Chapter podcast.