Narrator/Host (3:24)

Shirley Manson, the iconic Scottish singer songwriter rose to it girl status in the 90s as a fierce and magnetic frontwoman of Garbage. Though her tenure with the band now spans over three decades, Shirley was already a seasoned lead singer when she joined in 1996. She was invited to audition for Garbage after guitarist Steve Marker spotted her in a music video for her previous band, Angelfish. To date, Garbage has sold over 17 million albums worldwide, with all original members still going strong. The band is now preparing to release their eighth studio album, Let all that We Imagine Be the Light, and Shirley's unmistakable voice remains as sharp and compelling as ever. On today's episode, lerose sits down with Shirley Manson to discuss how an unexpected piece of advice from an acting coach during her time on the Fox Sci Fi series the Sarah Connor Chronicles continues to shape her creative process. Shirley also opens up about the challenges of communicating with her bandmates and shares a hilarious story about meeting one of her musical heroes, Patti Smith. This is Broken Record. Real musicians, real conversations. This episode is brought to you by Defender, a vehicle engineered to meet challenges head on so you can explore with confidence. Adventure seekers and risk takers can explore the full Defender lineup@land roverusa.com here's Leah Rose with Shirley Manson.

Leah Rose (4:51)

I've been watching and listening to a lot of interviews that you've done over the years, and I heard you talking about working with an acting coach maybe after working on Terminator and you learned some really interesting things or got some really interesting insight from the acting coach. Can you remember what she told you and how that sort of influenced you at the time?

Shirley Manson (5:16)

Yeah, I studied under an acting coach called Sharon Chattan in Los Angeles and she absolutely changed my whole life and my relationship to my music, to my work, I guess, for want of a better term. And I think about her almost every single day.

Leah Rose (5:35)

Wow.

Shirley Manson (5:36)

Yeah, she taught me so much about not just being an artist, but being a human and being trying to be in the moment, which is such a profound gift if you are able to teach yourself to live in the moment and not worry about tomorrow or yesterday. And up until meeting her, I was much more fearful, I guess, of trying to be creative. And then she just taught me how to sort of sink into it and play instead of plan. And that was profound. That's just one of the very many things she taught me. But that was a real kicker for me is how to be in the moment of creation and not be rigid, but to be really fluid and just go with whatever is coming out and investigate that and chase that rabbit and not try and force something that perhaps was preordained.

Leah Rose (6:32)

Do you remember the first Project Creative Project that you applied her advice to and did that turn out differently for you?

Shirley Manson (6:40)

Yeah. My band, Garbage, had been on a long hiatus for a lot of different reasons, but we had been dropped by Interscope Records and my mother had, you know, been diagnosed with a very extreme and aggressive form of dementia called Pick's disease, which took her out of the game in like 18 months.

Shopify Advertiser (6:59)

Wow.

Shirley Manson (7:00)

And then two of my really close girlfriends, one lost her young husband and the other lost her six year old son. And it was all during this hiatus that I was on from the band and that took up a lot of my time and energy. But I also, as you so rightly pointed out, I was on the Sarah Connor Chronicles on the Fox Network. So it was a big show, a big TV show. And then I started to study with Sharon and then I got back with the band, I think, about. About 2010, and we started work on not yout Kind of People, which was our fifth studio record. And so I started employing it then. The things I'd learned over that course of time in my life, which was really a very difficult and tumultuous time. And, yeah, I've just gotten better at adhering to the lessons Sharon taught me as time has passed.

Leah Rose (7:57)

Is there anything specific you can point to on the new album that maybe is a result from that advice from her?

Shirley Manson (8:05)

Well, I immediately think of have We Met the Void, which was. I was in the studio with Duke, the guitarist in Garbage. It was just the two of us and we had been talking about a book he was reading about witchcraft and we sort of were chuckling together and I was like, let's try and write a song about that. You know, about how women were destroyed by. Because they were powerful or they were intelligent or they were intuitive. They were put to death for all these reasons. That's what I want to write about. And I went. I hopped into the vocal booth and he played this particular piece of music that he had written with the band. And I was determined I was going to write about witchcraft or witches. And instead I heard the first few bars of the music and I just had a picture of myself when I was a young woman in my early 20s. It was a situation that had happened in real life, and I just sort of swung into it, and this bizarre story that had occurred to me in my life came out of nowhere. I hadn't even thought about it in years. And that's kind of what I mean of like, just having a thread of an idea and then it just turning left and be willing to follow it. Even though that wasn't my intention. It was like I just realized. I saw the thread, I grabbed it, and I just followed the thread into the void. And so that would be one of. That would be sort of an example of what I'm talking about.

Leah Rose (9:37)

Yeah. I was gonna ask you about that song, and I was gonna ask you, how did you get in the headspace to record that? Because it's like you're growling, and it's so. It's so raw and feels a little bit primal and sinister.

Shirley Manson (9:53)

Well, it is sinister. It's definitely sinister. And it was a very dark experience, you know, when you find out, you know, your partner is having another. An entirely different relationship outside of the one that you thought you had. And so, yeah, that song is very dark.

Leah Rose (10:11)

I love it.

Shirley Manson (10:12)

I love it, too. It's so cool. I love it, too. And it feels so personal, you know? And it's funny, this sort of joy you experience when you can throw in really personal things into a lyric. You know, being able to name my city, that felt like radical to me, you know? And I love the line, have you motherfuckers been seeing each other? You know, it's something I've said at the time, and it's something that, you know, I've probably said quite a few times since, you know? And I think anyone who's ever been cheated on can really relate to that line. You know, that moment when you're like, hold on a minute, Something crazy's happening here. And it's not really what I expected to happen to me today, you know? Totally.

Leah Rose (11:00)

Yes.

Shirley Manson (11:01)

Such a horrible feeling, you know? It's just a horrible, horrible feeling. Yeah.

Leah Rose (11:05)

Isn't it awful that you can still feel that, too, so many years later?

Shirley Manson (11:10)

But isn't it also wonderful, you know, to be still in contact with those really raw feelings of your youth when you were an entirely different person and you didn't know what you do now? I think there's something really glorious about that and exciting, you know, it's like, oh, I remember her. I can remember what I was wearing. I can remember, you know, how I wore My hair and my makeup and, you know, the bag I used to use. And it's like a real sort of Proustian moment. Right. Of the madeleine. It's like, ah, I like being able to touch all my ghosts.

Leah Rose (11:42)

Totally. Do you ever wonder if you misremember things? Like if you were to actually go back and see yourself or just be sort of like an eyewitness to your early life? What if it's totally different? I think about that all the time.

Shirley Manson (12:00)

I know for a fact everything will be different. You know, I know that our memories are so flawed, but I do believe that you sort of remember the important parts of the storyline. You know, you get it. There was, you know, a deceit, you know, and you were furious. And so you remember the big picture. But yeah, the details, not so much. Although again, in this song, I remembered these crazy details. Cause my partner lived opposite Gaudi Cathedral in Barcelona. And I can remember standing, looking at this young woman thinking, oh my God, you're having an affair with my boyfriend. And hearing the bells of the cathedral chime. You know, I mean, it was so weird. It was so weird. But then again, maybe somebody will say, yeah, Gyde's Bell stopped working 100 years ago. So maybe I'm completely tripping as well. But yeah, I guess that's part of the fun of memory. You survived it and the details probably don't matter that much.

Leah Rose (13:02)

Yes. What is the dynamic like when you're in the studio with Duke and you're entering this really private, intense moment? I know maybe you were in a vocal booth by yourself, but do you feel comfortable enough where you can just totally go there with him there?

Shirley Manson (13:22)

Yeah, I mean, I feel comfortable with the whole band. You know, the three of them, Steve, Butch and Duke. I used to feel very self conscious when I went into the vocal booth. And I was not happy particularly. I felt very isolated and judged. And now again, going back to Sharon Chattanoon and my acting teacher, she taught me how to switch that all off. She was like, you're not there to serve anybody. You're there to serve your creative instinct. Whereas when I first joined the band. Cause I joined the band under strange circumstances, you know, Booch was, you know, one of the premier producers in America in the 90s. And he had a lot of weight and there was so much respect and he had this power that I felt that I did not have. And I also, you know, really wanted the band to be proud of me. They had selected me to do this job. I wanted to do the very, very Best job I could do. And as a result, I think looking back, as a young woman trying to prove herself, it was difficult and I didn't necessarily enjoy the creative aspect of it. I found it taxing. And as I said, I felt like I was sort of being judged. And so a lot of the joy of creativity that I experience now was kind of robbed from me. Not through anybody else's fault, but my own. I hasten to add, this was all imagined in my own mind, but now I have no self consciousness at all. I don't care if I make mistakes or if I'm singing out of tune, as long as I've sort of getting the idea across, you know, Whereas back in the day, I'd really freak out if I didn't hit a note or I would be scared to try something vocally that I didn't know I could absolutely pull off with aplomb. I didn't want to fail in front of them, and so I didn't. And now I'm like, I'm willing to try anything, and if they like it, they like it. If they don't, then as long as I like it, I feel good.

Leah Rose (15:25)

What is the creative dynamic within the band like now? How do the songs come together? Is it usually the guys go off and make tracks on their own and then bring you in and then you write to the track? Or how do the songs get made?

Shirley Manson (15:41)

Well, this record was very different from any other record we've ever made because I had two hip surgeries, two hip replacements, both at the beginning of the making of this record. And at the very end, the dovetail of making this record, I had another hip replacement.

Leah Rose (15:56)

Same hip?

Shirley Manson (15:57)

No, different hip. Oh, gosh, yeah. I'm fully bionic. It's super hot. I'm so Lindsay Wagner. Yeah, seriously. But as a result of being mechanically broken, I spent a lot of time in bed and I had a lot of brain fog because I was on a lot of painkillers and I didn't want to go into the studio. I didn't feel. I felt very vulnerable, and I was arguably a little depressed. But I knew that if we were wasted too much time not making our next record, it would be a decade until we got another record out. And I was determined that wouldn't be the case. And so I urged the band to go and work without me, which is a first. Like, usually we do everything together. We're always in the same room, pretty much, you know.

Leah Rose (16:41)

Oh, cool.

Shirley Manson (16:42)

And in this case, they went into Butch's home studio and they would send me musical ideas as it came to them, and then I would work on, you know, on my melodies or my lyrics or whatnot, by myself. And I've never done that. And it was strange. And I do think it was great for me in one regard, but it also, unfortunately, underscored for me how much of an outsider I remain in Garbage in that, you know, there are three men of the same age, pretty much come from the same part of the country. They love each other very much, and they're really tight. And the three of them are, you know, quite quiet in a funny way and a little uncommunicative. You know, that very sort of stiff upper Midwestern lip that you can encounter a lot. So they don't really communicate with me creatively, which I find as I get older, harder and harder to navigate. When I was young, I'd put in a lot of energy into facilitating communication within the band. And then I just got. Well, then I got broken. You know, when you're. When you can't walk, it's like, fuck everything. Fuck everyone. I'm just trying to literally learn how to get up out of a seat and walk across the room. And I didn't have any energy to spend on anybody else or anything else. And as a result, there was very little communication. And I find that hard because I'm such a communicative person. I gasp for contact and connection. And I feel like me and the boys are. I mean, we love each other. We've got a great dynamic. If you came into a room, you'd be like, oh, they're all great. They really get along, and we do, and it's lovely. But creatively, it feels to me like there's quite gulf now, in a funny way, between us, which hopefully at some point we can manage, you know, better. I'm certainly more robust now than I was three years ago, you know, when I started upon this sort of physical period of disintegration and rehabilitation.

Leah Rose (18:57)

Yeah. So are you health wise? Are you doing better now?

Shirley Manson (19:00)

Where.

Leah Rose (19:01)

Where did you.

Shirley Manson (19:01)

I'm TikTok now. You are? Good, yes. Be warned, she's back. But, yeah, it was very hard. You know, it's really changed the way I look at the world and look at other people. And it sort of forced me to really try and tap into my compassion, which I've never been famous for, my compassion. And now I realize how much people are dealing with privately. And I now walk down the street and I can see people's bodies move a certain way, and I'm like, oh, they're gonna need a hip replacement or their knees fucked, or, oh, my God. You know, this person doesn't look well. I mean, it's just. It's horrible. It's a horrible, like, sort of education I got that I wish I hadn't. But at the same time, it's also been quite magical in a funny way. It's taught me to be more patient with my body. It's taught me to try harder, focusing on tiny, tiny increments. Like, I'm a big stroke person. I like, you know, I'm fast and I'm furious. And it taught me recovery, taught me to, like, if you can literally walk a centimeter, that's okay. You'll walk two tomorrow. Wow. And that was brand new for me because I have never been that kind of person.

Leah Rose (20:21)

So do you really feel like you weren't a compassionate person? I feel I. Obviously, I don't know you, but I feel like just hearing you talk and you seem very empathetic, and you seem like you take a lot on and you do. You seem compassionate.

Shirley Manson (20:36)

I mean, I've always had compassion. Again, though, for the big picture. And I'm really talking more about the small picture of people, individuals, individual interaction. I think I find it harder to tune into my sympathy and understanding of an individual in front of me as opposed to a cause.

Leah Rose (20:57)

Oh, interesting.

Shirley Manson (20:58)

Yeah, everything. Like, I never noticed small things when I was young. I mean, I really didn't. I didn't notice nature. Like, my father is really interested in environmental protection, and he would take me on nature rambles, you know, and he'd be pointing at mushrooms or the color of a leaf or the texture of a stone, and it would bore the shit out of me, you know? And then as I got older, I noticed my first husband was similar. We'd be, like, on a bus going into town, and he'd be like, oh, look at the little bird on the branch. And I'd be like, what? Huh? And I'd be in my brain, you know, thinking about God only knows what. Now that I'm older, I've really started to see the tiny thing, and I'm so blown away by it, and I'm like, oh, I've missed out on so much in my life by not paying attention to any of this. You know, there's so much beauty that I was oblivious to. So I guess that's what I mean about. My compassion has been sort of ignited, I think, by my attention to small things.

Narrator/Host (22:03)

We'll be back with more from Shirley Manson. And Leah Rose, after the break.

Shirley Manson (22:11)

I.

Leah Rose (22:11)

Saw on your last album, no Gods, no Masters, you had a song called Waiting for God. And then on the new album, you have a song, the Day that I Met God. So I was curious how those songs, in your mind, if there's any relationship to those songs, if they have relationship to each other, and also at this point in your life, what your relationship with God is.

Shirley Manson (22:34)

That might be the best question I've ever been asked in my life. Well, first of all, yes, there is a connection between the two songs, but I didn't realize that at the time. And it's only, you know, since we finished the record and I thought about no Gods, no Masters, and I thought about Waiting for God to show up and its relationship to the day I Met God. I realized they are absolutely interconnected. And one of the reasons being Waiting for God, I wrote about my long overdue, shamefully overdue awareness about black lives in America. I mean, arguably the world. But it was triggered. My awareness really was triggered by the murder of George Floyd. And it again turned me around. The death of that man, the murder of that poor man, made me realize I had a lot of work to do. I needed to educate myself. I was horrified by what happened to him. It was one of the most grotesque and abominable things I've ever seen. And it sent me off on a long journey towards educating myself about colonialism, about white supremacy, about racism, et cetera, et cetera. And Waiting for God was my dismay at a lot of the systemic injustices that exist worldwide. And then coming into making this record, as I mentioned earlier, I had so much physical problems, for lack of a better word. I realized that if I did not discipline myself to think differently from the mindset I was in when I made no Gods, no Masters, that I would probably destroy myself in some way or another, or I certainly would never recover my equilibrium, both physically and emotionally. I was in such a state, I couldn't afford to engage with my outrage that I'd employed so effectively in no Gods, no Masters. I realized, like, you are in peril, and you really need to look at the world differently, otherwise you really will put yourself back on your heels and possibly might never fully recover your vigor. And so, as I mentioned, I had these two hip surgeries, and I was taking a lot of pain medication in the first few weeks of both surgeries. And I was kind of suffering from a really quite extreme brain fog when the band sent me this piece of music. And I was on my treadmill doing my rehab Learning how to walk again. And just out of the blue, this song arrived in my head. It wasn't premeditated or anything. It was just like. I came up, you know, the chords are so beautiful in the chorus. And I came up with what I think is a really beautiful melody. And these beautiful words appeared. And I was like, this is actually a really beautiful chorus. And I was shocked to realize that I had stumbled upon, arguably my faith in that moment with these words. I was like, this is something I believe in as someone who has rejected organized religion since I was 11 years old. And I told my dad I was no longer going to Sunday school. And I cut myself off from the organized thinking of believing that in that moment of writing that chorus, I was like, actually, oh, my God, I've kind of found my faith here. This is what I believe in. This is what I would like to employ in my life as a sort of higher power.

Leah Rose (26:21)

Can you talk about the role that religion played in your family growing up? Because it seems like that wasn't a little thing, you telling your father that your rejecting organized religion. How big of a deal was that?

Shirley Manson (26:33)

It was a huge deal for me as a child, and not. Not solely because my dad made us go to Sunday school and we went to the. They went. My parents went to the church. I just. Out of my three sisters, for whatever reason, I was a child who really took Sunday school to heart. I was very engaged with Jesus. I loved all the imagery. I loved the lessons. I really believed in the Ten Commandments. I have actually. I'm ashamed to say this, but I have read the New Bible from start to finish. That's how maniacal I was. A complete tomb. It shows you how nuts I was. So I really was shocked. As I started to grow up, I started to get the sense that most people were not true believers. I started noticing a lot of hypocrisy, and it began to really upset me. And then by the time I was about 11, I was just like, I'm no longer going to the church because it's full of hypocrites and I don't believe in what's being spouted. I think this is a whole load of bullshit. And the minister I railed against, I felt his ego as a child, I felt this ego rather than this. Well, I talk about the word compassion again. I wasn't receiving his compassion. I felt instead I was watching a performance. Yeah. So I just. I just rejected it. And I was furious at being let down by Jesus. And I say that in all Sincerity. I felt really let down. I was like, wow, this is a horrible, horrible sham. As I've gotten older, I see organized religion in a completely different light now. But I was looking at it very simply as a child of like, this was something I believed in. I found out it's a load of bollocks and I'm furious about it and I reject it completely.

Leah Rose (28:24)

Where did all that passion and excitement and love that you were, you know, giving to Jesus and giving to religion? You were devout and you were such a good student. Where did all that go once you decided religion isn't for me?

Shirley Manson (28:40)

It went into music primarily. I was very active in, in an all female choir, which I loved and was obsessed by. And I was a member of the school orchestra. I played violin, piano, clarinet, you know, I was a musical person. And I also got involved in on the stage, you know, with dramatic arts. I had an amazing teacher actually at school. She was a bit of a Ms. Jean Brody type who plucked a couple of girls, I being one of them, from her year of kids, and encouraged us to join an Edinburgh youth theatre. And that became sort of an obsession for me. Yeah, I was so lucky. I had amazing, amazing teachers because Scotland in the 70s, they plowed a lot of money into education. And the school that I was at was attached to a very prestigious music school called St. Mary's so we had a music studio. Yeah, so I was really spoiled. I had an incredible education thanks to the Scottish government at the time.

Leah Rose (29:46)

What was the rock scene like in Scotland when you were a teenager? Were you going out and seeing bands? Or were you more focused on what you were doing with the drama class or were you out? Were you sort of like at bars and seeing shows?

Shirley Manson (30:02)

Well, I didn't have any money, so I was being punished because when at 13 years old, I got caught smoking. So I got no pocket money so I couldn't actually go to very many shows. So it's much later on that I started going to see, you know, Susie and the Banshees or the Water Boys or the Smiths or like I saw a lot of amazing shows. But that was much later on when we were young. The rock scene in Scotland hadn't really come to much. Cause we didn't have a music industry. Everything had to go through London. And so we had a very sort of disparate little music scene up in Scotland that started to change in the 80s, but it wasn't thriving, to be fair.

Leah Rose (30:48)

Was Jesus and Mary Chain are from Scotland, right?

Shirley Manson (30:50)

Hell yeah, they are. I mean, we have we had amazing artists? You know, we had like the associates Jesus and Mary Chain. And my. Arguably one of my favorite bands of all time would be the Cocteau Twins. Oh, wow. Cool.

Leah Rose (31:07)

Yeah.

Shirley Manson (31:08)

And we claim them as ours, you know, but we had a lot of great punk bands like the Rosillos and Exploited. And we were very lucky. But yeah, I couldn't afford to go to any of the shows because I didn't have any money.

Leah Rose (31:22)

I was so curious about your post high school life. I think it's around that time that you joined your first band, but you were just sort of still living at home, but sort of floating around a little bit. And what do you remember about that time?

Shirley Manson (31:37)

Well, again, I was really spoiled. Cause our parents basically kept us in the family home until we basically wanted to leave. And I didn't leave my family home until I was about 23. It was ridiculous, but it was cause my parents were so sort of like easy ozy. They let us come and go as we saw fit. I mean, I was very rebellious. And I think my parents were smart enough to realize if we fight her, she will win.

Leah Rose (32:04)

She has no compassion. Do not mess with her.

Shirley Manson (32:06)

She has no compassion at all. And so instead of stamping on my neck, what they did was they just bounced back and let me be and let me destroy basically my education. I realized now they were just obviously like, okay, we're gonna let her do her thing. You know, she's gonna drive into a wall and, you know, hopefully she won't be too bloodied. But I failed my schooling basically. And my dad said, well, you need to get a job. It's that simple. And so I went and worked in a teen clothing store, which was kind of like Forever 21. It was sort of like that.

Leah Rose (32:42)

Were you like a cool shop girl or were you?

Shirley Manson (32:45)

I was a cool shop girl. I mean, I didn't think I was cool, but I was. And people used to tell people, even today, go, I remember you from Ms. I thought you were the coolest girl, you know. And we had like. I was doing my hair up in crazy hairstyles. And I worked at the makeup station for a while, and I got to paint people's faces and it was great. But then I had a bad attitude towards some of the customers. I got relegated to the changing room, which I hated, as you can imagine. And then I was so rude. I got into an altercation with a customer. I was then relegated to the stock room. And that was the end of my.

Leah Rose (33:23)

Oh, wow. They're like, she Cannot be around people.

Shirley Manson (33:25)

Yes. You know, I'd see customers, like, treat the clothes poorly, throw them on the floor of the fitting room and then walk out. And I'd be, excuse me, you need to pick that up and take it back to me here at the station. And they would throw it on my lap and I would throw it right back at them. And I'd get in trouble for that.

Leah Rose (33:42)

Like, throw her in the back.

Shirley Manson (33:44)

Exactly. We're putting her upstairs. And so that's what happened to my glorious career in myself, Ridge. But at night time I was playing in a band and I was also a big clubber. I loved to dance. So I'd go to this club called the Hoochie Cooch Club, which was my favorite club in Edinburgh. And they played incredible music and they had amazing bands that would come and play and. Yeah, and it was full of people with incredible style. And even to this day I'm like, that is the coolest scene I've ever been in.

Leah Rose (34:13)

Yeah.

Shirley Manson (34:14)

Or none.

Leah Rose (34:15)

And it's extra cool because back then there wasn't the Internet. So people couldn't just like order like random shit online that they saw somebody else wearing. It was people actually picking pieces themselves and putting things together.

Shirley Manson (34:27)

Exactly. And we didn't have much money, so we were really into the vintage clothing stores, you know, so everybody looked different, nobody looked the same. You know, now I look at kids and I'm like, why are you all wearing white? Like cut off midriff T shirts and baggy jeans and your hair straight like a Kardashian. And you've got the long nails like a Kardashian. And you've got the same exact same sneakers on. Like, I don't get it. I'm like really curious. Whereas when we were young, we would die. We'd rather die than look like someone else, you know? Yes.

Leah Rose (35:01)

Once you were in a band and the band was touring and it sounds like you weren't, weren't making like real money, but you were able to support yourself at some point, right?

Shirley Manson (35:13)

Well, again, luckily for me, my parents hadn't shoved me out the house, so I didn't really need that much money. I certainly didn't make much money. But I realize now looking back, I just did it. Literally, I loved it. I got excited by it and I had a lot of tenacity. Like, I sang back up with another girl in the band that I was in called goodbye Mr. McKenzie. And she would leave recording sessions early cause she'd get tired. She'd be like, I need to Go to bed like, I can't handle this. I would be there all night long to sing two lines as a backing vocalist. Do you know what I mean? I just believed in it and I wanted to be there and wanted to be part of it. And I think that tenacity has served me really well throughout my whole career. Is. It's just like, I am not the girl that goes home.

Leah Rose (36:02)

It's the same girl who read the entire Bible.

Shirley Manson (36:06)

Exactly. She's nuts. Keep away from her.

Leah Rose (36:11)

Same girl. Was your path a lot different from your sister's paths?

Shirley Manson (36:17)

Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. We were very different people. And again, I stuck in at everything I ever did, you know, I took everything I did seriously. I stuck in it choir, stuck in at youtheater, stuck in at ballet, you know, My sisters were much less focused than I was. They were just sort of like, yeah, maybe I'll play the piano for a bit, but then I'll give that up and then I'll go riding for a bit. They had less interest in sort of the arts than I did. And my big sister, God bless her, all she wanted to do her whole life was be a nurse. She just retired, actually. But she's a very committed intensive care nurse and she's a brilliant one.

Leah Rose (36:55)

Do you think being a middle child has influenced your relationships and the way that you relate to other people, like, even in the band, does that come up, the way that you sort of view life?

Shirley Manson (37:08)

Yes, absolutely. Everything is colored by my position in the family. And I'm not being flip. And I actually saw article in the BBC that they've done a study on this. And they asked oldest children and youngest children if they enjoyed their position in the family. And they all, apparently, a very high percentage anyway, said yes. But all the middle children said they hated the fact that they were the middle child. And I was one of them. Oh, I'm beginning now in my old age to go. Actually, it was quite cool because it really twisted me. And being twisted is really good for being an artist. So it's okay. It all worked out in the end. But I was miserable. Cause I felt like I didn't enjoy any privilege. Like, my big sister got to have all the responsibility and freedom. My little sister got all the coddling and I got all the secondhand clothes. And it made me insane, you know. And it also made me hungry for love and hungry for connection. And that has been a difficult void to fill in my life, you know? Oh, that makes me so sad. Yeah, I don't feel sad. It's been good for me. And I have an amazing husband who's fixed the hole. Oh, good. Yeah. But for so long, I realized I was just. I don't know, I was just wanting to feel like somebody saw me. I felt really invisible as a middle child.

Leah Rose (38:42)

But then when you go on to become a lead singer of a band and you occupy that position, which is the central position, literally, with a spotlight on you, you're considered an it girl. How does that not fill the hole? I mean, I know it doesn't.

Shirley Manson (38:59)

Well, in some ways, it does fill the hole. Like when I'm standing on stage, like you say, right. Nestled in the middle of the band, they're flanking me, and there's a light on me, and I feel seen and I feel understood. That has fixed it to a certain degree. But, of course, you can't spend your whole life doing that. And so you have to fix yourself outside of work. And I definitely have done that. But I do notice, I love, like, even now, like, I love sitting in between two people, and I love being a Shirley sandwich. You know, it's sort of weird, but I, like, really gravitate towards it. Like, wow. Yeah. It's funny. Yeah. I'm grateful for it because I really do think it's helped me in my career. I think it's helped me be really good at what I do. Yeah. Is because a lot of artists, creative artists, are not comfortable in a live situation. They don't enjoy it. They do it because they have to.

Leah Rose (39:51)

You mean live on stage, performing?

Shirley Manson (39:52)

Yeah, live on stage, performing. They don't love it. They don't enjoy it. And I do. I feel like I might like my most whole self on stage.

Leah Rose (40:03)

I imagine as someone who came up and was super popular the height of your career, MTV was everything. So there was such a strong visual component that came along with the success. Did that visual side of it, did that freak you out or did it make you feel good?

Shirley Manson (40:24)

I absolutely understood the power of video.

Leah Rose (40:27)

Yeah.

Shirley Manson (40:28)

And I absolutely understood the power of identity. I'd been in a band, as I said before, for 10 years before I joined Garbage. And that band had taught me a lot about what were your tools of the trade, so to speak. And so I understood that videos and the visualization of the band were of primary importance. And I put a lot of energy into that. And I also, having been a previous guy clubbing girl, I understood that what you wore was also important. And I put a lot of weight behind that, too. And that sort of emphasis that I put on, that kind of thing was still quite unusual. It wasn't par de course. And of course we arrived somewhat at the tail end of grunge music where everybody was sort of playing glamour down. They were crushing glamour. They were doing a much more sort of low key presentation. And I was like, yeah, I'm bringing in some club flavors here. And I like wore the neon dresses and I wore what I called like sort of pop star makeup. You know, I wasn't coming out with disheveled hair and no makeup. I came on with a full face and glamorous hair. And so I really stood out. You know, when we came out, everybody was like, whoa, who's this? You know. And so, yeah, I did know that it was a powerful tool. But unfortunately for me, when I did start attracting a lot of attention, it became something unpleasant for me. I didn't enjoy the attention the way I thought I would. I didn't revel in the attention and it started to make me a little unhappy.

Leah Rose (42:08)

Do you know why? Was it different attention than you were anticipating?

Shirley Manson (42:12)

Yeah, it was different kind of attention. I felt a lot of expectation on my shoulders to present a certain way. And of course I'm not a particularly vain person, as I said earlier. Like, I understood why I had to present a certain way and it was important. And I don't think it was born of vanity. I mean, maybe people that know me better would argue that, but I don't think so. I just don't think I'm a particularly vain person. But I had a lot of self doubt and low physical esteem. Yeah, I didn't feel beautiful. And now looking back, I'm like, my God, you were so beautiful, but you didn't think you were, you know. And so I was hard on myself. And if I didn't look like the version of myself that presented on mtv, I felt I was falling short of the mark and I felt I was disappointing everybody and I was letting the band down. And that if I was really a good like music personality or lead singer, I would be able to achieve the height, you know, of that I was achieving on film. I would be able to, to muster that in my real life. And I couldn't. And therefore I felt, oh, I'm not meant to be doing this. I mean, I really did a number on myself. I was like, I'm not meant to be doing this. I'm not good enough, I'm not beautiful, stylish enough. I'm not this, I'm not that. And it just, it became really unhealthy and horrible.

Leah Rose (43:31)

Did you have anybody back then that you could talk to about that? Any other women who were in a similar position?

Shirley Manson (43:37)

No, I didn't. And I think that was part of the problem is a lot of my friends back home, for whatever reason, just didn't really want to engage with me about my career. I think it was very difficult. You know, I think. And this happens a lot, I think, to people who gain public success. You know, a visibly successful career in the public eye, I think is hard on your friends sometimes, and it disrupts the power balance between friends.

Leah Rose (44:07)

Yeah.

Shirley Manson (44:08)

Where previously it's all egalitarian and then their attitude towards you changes. My attitude didn't change towards them, but their attitude towards me did. And I think they projected a lot onto me. And it was very lonely. And I also deliberately, and this is on me, I diminished my own light. Cause I felt it was hurting the people I loved. And again, I'm not saying this was sane or healthy thinking. This was a very destructive part of my personality, but I would diminish everything. And then, of course, you grow up and you start to resent the fact that you've diminished your success and you've diminished the things that have happened to you and you haven't owned the moments that really were deserving of celebration. You know, when you meet Madonna, you want to go home and scream, I fucking met Madonna tonight. And she told me I was amazing.

Leah Rose (45:00)

Oh, my God.

Shirley Manson (45:01)

And you know, you want to scream it from the rooftops, but you keep it to yourself because you know that your friends are not going to enjoy that particular boast.

Leah Rose (45:08)

Yes.

Shirley Manson (45:09)

And so it's a very complicated experience. And, yeah, I didn't know any other women in the business yet.

Leah Rose (45:17)

Okay.

Shirley Manson (45:17)

Who. Who did what I did. And so, yeah, I was all totally on my own. And of course, I'm in this band with three older men who, yeah. Who just move through the world very differently from me.

Narrator/Host (45:29)

One last break and we back with Shirley Manson.

Leah Rose (45:36)

I really appreciate how open you are about your experience in the music industry and how reflective you are. And I wonder, does that have anything to do with you hosting a podcast and being an interviewer? Do you think you sort of understand the process in a different way now after having that experience?

Shirley Manson (45:58)

Well, I definitely understand the process a wee bit better than I did. I don't think I understand it more. If anything, I understand it less. And I'm much more self conscious. I have a deep respect for journalists that I speak to who I consider. And this never. Shame on me. But this never, ever struck My mind. But I understand how much work goes into interviewing somebody. I had no idea. So I have a lot more respect, I guess, for the process. And I do try and honor it, you know, because I know what the journalist has done on the other side. But hosting a podcast was utterly terrifying. And I really realized how out of my depth I was. And it caused me a lot of distress and stress, I felt. Cause I wanted to honor the person I was interviewing. And I felt like, of course, I didn't want to just ask the same old, same old. Yeah, it caused me a lot of angst. Never again.

Leah Rose (46:58)

I wonder if, though, there is an advantage that you might have because you're an artist talking to other artists, and artists naturally feel a lot more comfortable in that situation with, you know, someone who maybe can understand just how a creative person might think or move in the world. So that might actually be a big advantage that you have as an interviewer.

Shirley Manson (47:20)

I mean, maybe. I certainly think there was no suspicion that I had some kind of high agenda, you know, so everybody was very relaxed and open with me, it was me who was uptight. You know, I was the one who was bringing a lot of stress to the equation. But, you know, there is a certain kind of understanding with certain artists that you enjoy as a fellow artist. You know, when you connect with an artist, that really gets you and you really get them. There is a sort of level that you get to that I don't believe I've ever gotten to in my life. Outside of music, is there anybody in.

Leah Rose (47:58)

Particular who you've met over the years who you really had, like, an instant connection with?

Shirley Manson (48:05)

Peaches and Karen O. And Alanis and Liz Phair, you know, all the women that kind of are in my sphere, we share a certain kind of understanding and a trust, I guess, with each other that is very beautiful. And I consider a great privilege, you know, that I'm able to communicate with these women. And we have these profound conversations that just. If you don't do what we do, you cannot hold this the same conversation.

Leah Rose (48:31)

You know, what types of things come up in those conversations?

Shirley Manson (48:36)

Well, that's private for the. That's private. That's the witch's coven. And what goes on in the coven stays in the coven, you know. But, yeah, you can just be really vulnerable with one another. And we talk about our role as artists in the world, you know, and, yes, it's a real gift. I consider it a real gift.

Leah Rose (48:58)

Do you remember any moments? I mean, now you can look back and hopefully celebrate those moments. Like Meeting Madonna or other big rock star moments where you got to meet somebody who you just idolized or really respected, and it actually went well. Like, it was a good experience.

Shirley Manson (49:16)

All of my meetings with my heroes have gone well. Every single one. Really? Yeah. I've had, like, just magical moments where I'm pushing myself. No, I haven't met a single asshole, and they've all blown me away. But I will attribute some of that to myself because I had really good taste in the people that I chose to admire and be a pupil of in the music industry. Like, everybody that I was obsessed with. I've met all of them.

Leah Rose (49:49)

Who's someone in particular that you can share a story about?

Shirley Manson (49:52)

I've. Well, I mean, there's been so many. It feels obscene to boast, you know, But I've just enjoyed incredible interactions with so many. I mean, the funniest one. I'll tell you the funniest one, Okay. I met Patti Smith. We were at the Montrose Jazz Festival, and she was actually opening for Garbage. This is how ridiculous the music industry is and how tits up it gets. You know, we were the brand new thing, so we were given this high position on the bill, but Patti Smith is opening for us, and it was obscene, and I was embarrassed by it. But anyway, we drive in late on our bus. We get to the venue. I am starving and I haven't eaten all day, and I get a. I don't know how I remember this, but I got a green Thai curry, and I am tucking into it, and there's a knock on the door, and I go, come in. And then there's another knock on the door and I go, come in. And I'm scoffing this food like a greedy bastard, like I am. And then there's a third knock on the door, and I go, for fuck's sake. And I get up off my seat and I throw the door open, and who is standing there but the great Patti Smith, as serene and goddess like as you can imagine.

Leah Rose (51:03)

Yes.

Shirley Manson (51:04)

And very quietly, she said, I just wanted to come by because I won't have time after my set. And I wanted to say hi, and I'm like, oh, oh, hi. You know, trying to be, all of a sudden, Ms. Nice, you know, mismanared. And we talk a little, and of course, I'm loving to her, and she's very graceful and elegant, and off she shuffles. And I shut the door and I sit down and I put my fork into my green curry, and I look up and there's a mirror right in Front of me. Cause I'm at my dressing table. I look up in the mirror, and there's green curry sauce all over my face. And I'm just like, oh, oh, my God. Oh, my God. So that is one of the funny moments. I'll never forget that I was so humiliated, and it's all on me.

Leah Rose (51:48)

That's so funny. Is there anything else about the new album? I want to make sure you're able to say everything you want to say about the process or upcoming tour. Is there anything that we didn't cover?

Shirley Manson (52:04)

I think you've done an amazing job. And I'm so bowled over by obviously, like, the amount of work you've put into this. I mean, we touched on this earlier, but I'm just really grateful to talk to somebody like you. You know, as an older woman in the music industry, how people relate to you shifts, you know.

Leah Rose (52:23)

Yes.

Shirley Manson (52:24)

And you're sort of invisible in a funny way. Yeah. So to talk to somebody of your caliber and get to answer really wonderful questions, I'm very grateful for. I don't. I couldn't begin to tell you how interviews I've done, you know, over the last few years, where I'm thinking to myself, and I have. I am not the most confident, like, sort of believing in myself kind of person, you know, I don't go, I am the fucking shit. And you should be so thrilled to talk to me. I'm never like that. I'm just sort of like, oh, my God, I can't believe that Rolling Stone would want to speak to me. You know, it's sort of. I never take it for granted or anything like that, but sometimes I'm sitting, you know, talking to journalists, and I think, is this really the level that we are at? I'm an artist. I've been doing this for 30 years, you know, and you're talking to me about a dress I wore on stage, you know, that you thought made me look like a green witch. Are you fucking out of your mind? You know what I mean?

Leah Rose (53:25)

Shame on them.

Shirley Manson (53:26)

Yeah, well, you know, it's just. It is what it is. Right. But as I said, I'm just really grateful for your time. And anybody talking about our work, our new record, in any context, I'm grateful for. There's so many artists out there, there's so many records, and to be given an opportunity to just say, hey, we've made this record. We think it's really good.

Leah Rose (53:45)

It is really good.

Shirley Manson (53:46)

I. Secondly, thank you, but we made it with a lot of love, you know, and we have no real expectations of it. But it is brought as a gift into the world and I hope it's received that way and hopefully it's just a part, another moment in a career that will continue. That's what I hope.

Leah Rose (54:04)

Yeah, it is going to continue. Thank you so much, Shirley. I appreciate you so much.

Shirley Manson (54:09)

I appreciate you Leah, and thank you. It's been really lovely talking to you and yeah, lots of love.

Leah Rose (54:15)

Thank you. Good night. Bye.

Shirley Manson (54:17)

Bye bye.

Narrator/Host (54:20)

In the episode description, you'll find a link to a playlist of our favorite garbage tracks as well as their latest album, Let all that We Imagine and Be the Light. Be sure to check out YouTube.com broken record podcast to see all of our video interviews and be sure to follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You can follow us on Twitter at Broken Record Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tolliver. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad free listening for $4.99 a month. Look for Pushkin plus on Apple Podcast subscriptions and if you like this show, please remember to share, rate and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beatz. I'm Justin Richmond. Next Chapter Podcast.