All Over The Map: The Pennsylvania Voters Who May Decide the Race

Summary

CNN Presents – "All Over The Map: The Pennsylvania Voters Who May Decide the Race"
Episode Date: November 4, 2024

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Episode Overview

In the final episode before Election Day, John King and Allie Malloy revisit Pennsylvania, the crucial battleground state whose suburban and exurban voters may ultimately decide the presidential race. The episode centers on in-depth conversations with three Republican voters—Michael Pacey, Joan London, and Cynthia Sabatini—who live in the Philadelphia suburbs and represent a significant but conflicted voting bloc: moderates and disaffected Republicans who all chose Nikki Haley in the primary, even after she dropped out. By exploring their thinking, anxieties, and logic, the episode provides a nuanced, real-time snapshot of the stakes and uncertainty reverberating through the electorate on the eve of the 2024 election.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Voters: Profiles and Stakes

[01:19]–[02:34]

• All three voters are white, older Gen X or Boomers, Republicans by registration, and live just outside Philadelphia.
• They each voted for Nikki Haley in the primary, signaling disaffection with Trump.
• Their views reflect a broader trend among suburban/exurban Republican voters in critical swing-state counties.

John King:
"They're all Republicans. All of them voted for Nikki Haley in the Pennsylvania primary long after she was gone from the race. And that makes them the voters that both candidates would love to win over." [01:34]

2. Michael Pacey: Voting Against, Not For

[02:57]–[07:41]

• Works at a meat processing plant in Bucks County.
• Decided early on not to vote for Trump; intends to vote Democrat, even if conflicted about it.
• Sees his vote as "against" Trump, not enthusiastic "for" Harris.
• Fears ongoing instability in the Republican party if Trump wins; hopes for the party's "return" if Trump loses.
• Skeptical Trump would ever concede defeat.

Key Quotes:

• "The scary part is, you know, I'm not voting for a candidate, I'm voting against a candidate." – Michael Pacey [02:14 & 04:46]
• "If Trump loses, then I think that the Republicans will start coming back to what they were, because they don't have that radical right side. They don't have the craziness and the instability." – Michael Pacey [05:08]
• "You know, in the back of your mind, you worry... My hope is, is that, you know, he loses and he just fades into the annals of history." – Michael Pacey [06:53]

3. Joan London: Character Over Party

[07:41]–[13:57]

• Philadelphia suburban lawyer, Reagan Republican, deeply concerned with US foreign policy.
• Originally considered a protest vote out of principle but changed after a Trump debate comment on Ukraine.
• Saw Trump’s call for a "negotiated settlement" in Ukraine as appeasement and antithetical to Republican values.

Key Insights:

• Chose to vote for Harris, despite policy disagreements, out of concern for national character and foreign policy.
• Worries about a deeply polarized nation, potential for the outcome to be decided in court, and the difficulty of voting identity among friends and family.

Memorable Quotes:

• "The last straw was where he said that we have to have a negotiated settlement in the Ukraine because President Putin has nuclear weapons, and we could have World War Three if we don't... That's appeasement. It's dangerous.” – Joan London [09:00]
• "Sometimes you have to say American first, conservative second, Republican third." – Joan London [02:21 & repeated [10:38]]
• "I have friends who are voting for Trump. I have friends who are voting for Harris... These are very difficult choices. I don't judge anybody." – Joan London [12:44]

4. Cynthia Sabatini: Uncertainty and Disillusion

[14:27]–[25:47]

• Lives in Delaware County (Media, PA), consults in pharmaceutical industry.
• Frustrated with both parties, especially local Democrats over taxes and fiscal issues.
• Disenchanted with the two-party system; has considered write-in candidates (including Nikki Haley).
• Not planning to vote for Trump under any circumstances due to character and January 6 ("nail in the coffin").

Key Issues:

• Hesitant about Harris, wanting more detailed economic policy answers; doubts about Harris's authenticity/positions.
• Still undecided, planning to drop off her mail-in ballot on Election Day itself.

Notable Quotes:

• "Trump is a non starter for me... January 6th to me was the breaking point, quite honestly." – Cynthia Sabatini [16:24 & 16:53]
• "I'm a numbers person. I want to know the specifics... We have a looming federal deficit. At some point the piper will have to be paid." – Cynthia Sabatini [18:18]
• "In a country of 340 million people, we're reduced to this. I would much prefer a parliamentary system." – Cynthia Sabatini [20:38]
• "I am praying for divine intervention. I may go back to church." (joking about the decision process) – Cynthia Sabatini [21:44]

5. The Broader Mood: Division, Anxieties, Motivation

[25:47]–[31:34]

• King and Malloy discuss pessimism, polarization, and "a sense of apprehension" they've encountered across battleground states.
• Many voters (especially moderates) are reluctant to discuss their votes publicly due to fear of backlash from their communities.
• Both hosts reflect on the darkness and anxiety surrounding this election cycle, contrasting sharply with traditional celebratory democratic process.
• Central theme: Voters are motivated by what they’re voting against rather than enthusiasm for a candidate.
• King highlights the pivotal nature of Nikki Haley’s primary votes: "155,000 people in a state that was last decided by 80,000 votes.” [26:42]

Highlight Quotes:

• "They do represent these unsatisfied voters... just the lack of choices and people making their choices based on being against something." – Allie Malloy [26:16]
• "There's a darkness almost around the country... an unsureness." – Allie Malloy [28:32]
• "Everybody is scarred in different ways by what happened four years ago. Everybody is scarred by what they saw on January 6, by the fact that the campaign really never ended. It's a whole new world." – John King [28:58]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Michael Pacey:

  • "I'm not voting for a candidate, I'm voting against a candidate." [02:14, 04:46]
  • "If Trump loses...the Republicans will start coming back to what they were..." [05:08]

• Joan London:

  • "The last straw was where he said we have to have a negotiated settlement in Ukraine... That's appeasement. It's dangerous." [09:00]
  • "Sometimes you have to say American first, conservative second, Republican third." [02:21, 10:38]
  • "I have friends who are voting for Trump... These are very difficult choices. I don't judge anybody." [12:44]

• Cynthia Sabatini:

  • "Trump is a non starter for me... January 6th was the breaking point." [16:24, 16:53]
  • "You need to answer questions on point. You need to provide more details about your economic plan. You need to provide more details about your vision for this country." [24:52]
  • "I think Trump's going to win." [25:45]

• Allie Malloy:

  • "They do represent unsatisfied voters...people making their choices based on being against something." [26:16]
  • "There's a darkness almost around the country on both sides or an unsureness." [28:32]
  • "Hearing from our voters does give me some hope because we hear from a lot of people and no one wants the unrest." [30:45]

• John King:

  • "Everybody is scarred in different ways by what happened four years ago...It's a whole new world." [28:58]

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Structure of the Episode (Selected Timestamps)

• 01:00–02:34: John King sets the scene, introduces the importance of Pennsylvania and these three swing voters.
• 02:57–07:41: Michael Pacey interview – his reasons for opposing Trump, hope for GOP’s future.
• 07:41–13:57: Joan London interview – policy vs character, decision to vote for Harris, views on Ukraine, polarization.
• 14:27–25:47: Cynthia Sabatini interview – local politics, two-party frustrations, undecided, criteria for Harris, commitment not to vote for Trump.
• 25:47–31:34: King and Malloy debrief – what the interviews reveal about broader national anxieties, the potential legacy of this election, and the challenge of persuading disaffected voters.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a window into the minds of persuadable Republicans in a pivotal swing state, revealing both the "apprehension" and high principle animating their choices. Most are making choices against their old party or its nominee, rather than for a new vision, concerned about the consequences for democracy and the future of both parties—especially the Republicans. The hosts underline that this “againstness” and widespread anxiety are key features of the 2024 race, and that even as voters move toward a decision, their unease, pessimism, and hope for renewal will shape the country long after Election Day.

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For those seeking an unvarnished perspective on swing-state voter psychology—and what might make or break the presidency—this episode is essential listening.

Transcript

[John King]

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[Cynthia Sabatini]

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[Michael Pacey]

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[John King]

This is it. We're releasing this the day before election Day. My team and I are out on the road in this home stretch, hitting five swing states in five days.

[Allie Malloy]

You want to put your laptop, like, there and then we can.

[John King]

Okay, okay, okay. I'm recording this from a hotel room in Tucson.

[Allie Malloy]

Water. Here, take one of my $10 waters.

[John King]

But with this episode, we're bringing you back full circle. We started this podcast series in Pennsylvania back in the early summer. It was, of course, a very different race back then, but the election could still come down to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and its 19 electoral votes. The biggest prize of the seven swing states. We're going to hear from three voters here, and they have a lot in common. They're white. They're all older Gen X or boomers. They all live in the suburban or exurban counties right around Philadelphia, the all important counties that will decide who wins Pennsylvania and perhaps decide who wins the White House. And they're all Republicans. All of them voted for Nikki Haley in the Pennsylvania primary long after she was gone from the race. And that makes them the voters that both candidates would love to win over.

[Michael Pacey]

The scary part is, you know, I'm not voting for a candidate, I'm voting against a candidate.

[Joan London]

Sometimes you have to say American first, conservative second, Republican third.

[Cynthia Sabatini]

It won't be until election day that I bring my mail in ballot to the courthouse.

[John King]

Where these three have come down and how they're feeling about the outcome of the race offers us a remarkable 11th hour window on what is going down as the strangest, most complicated, hard to call presidential race of the 10 I have covered. I'm John King and this is all over the map. Where are we? Tell me about this place.

[Michael Pacey]

So we are in Pennsylvania State game land.

[John King]

We're starting with Michael Pacey. He works in a meat processing plant in Bucks County.

[Michael Pacey]

As you can probably hear, there's a rifle range and a gun range down below us.

[John King]

If you've been with us since the beginning of this series, you'll remember Michael. He's the first boater you heard from and his mind was made up a long time ago. He knew from the beginning, even though he's a Republican, not only would he never cast a ballot for Donald Trump, he planned to vote Democratic this time around. And that didn't change when the Democratic ticket did. We're at the end. What's your sense of what's happening here? The vice president's trying to reach out to more people like you who are Republican by DNA but don't like Trump. Do you think she's having any luck?

[Michael Pacey]

I don't. I. I think that the people that are going to see her and the people are going to see Trump are the people who are already voting for those two. I don't think it's swinging things one way or the other. I think it's going to be really close. I just don't understand how anyone can still be considering Trump after everything he said in the last couple weeks. Yet it doesn't move the needle one way or the other. If you're voting for Trump, you're voting.

[John King]

For Trump in terms of your feeling, having been here through the 2016 experience where Trump didn't win the suburbs, but he did better than he did against Biden. Does this feel more like 2016 or more like 2020 or just completely different?

[Michael Pacey]

I feel that it's more like 2020 where people have like, we know what we're going to get with him. And most people say we know what we're getting with her, but we really don't. She's completely different person. But I think the people who are saying, you know, this is what Trump is, this is what we're going to get, you know, they've already made the decision there. This, like, I am, you're just, there's no way we're going to vote for.

[John King]

Him, you're going to vote for her. But do you know what you're getting?

[Michael Pacey]

No, I don't. And that's the scary part is, you know, I'm not voting for a candidate, I'm not voting for a policy. I'm voting against a candidate and policies, and not even all the policies. Just, you know, the unstableness of some of the things he says are truly scary.

[John King]

You want your party back, what do you see as the likelihood of getting it back?

[Michael Pacey]

So if Trump loses, then I think that the Republicans will start coming back to what they were, because they don't have that radical right side. They don't have the craziness and the instability. I think you have people at the top of the Republican Party who are going to come back and say, okay, we saw this populist kind of government. It didn't work for us. We lost in 2022, now we lost in 2024. We need to go back to what we were doing, because we were at least winning then.

[John King]

But if he loses, do you expect him to concede that he lost?

[Michael Pacey]

Oh, no, that's just not to happen. He's never going to concede that he loses anything. You know, the last election he lost by 7 million votes, and he's like, no, I didn't. So this one, I think, is going to be a lot closer than that. And if he loses, I don't see how he says, yep, I lost this one.

[John King]

So. And then what happens? If she wins and you voted for her, is it okay, I'm gonna give her a chance and I'm a Harris supporter, or is it I did something that was very important to me on principle, and now I'm gonna get about the business of trying to convince the Republican Party to get its act together.

[Michael Pacey]

See, I'm not so much us versus them. I, I, I look at it. We need to do what's best for America and what's best for us worldwide. So if she's going to support Ukraine, I'm all in. If she's not going to support Israel, I'm not all in. You know what I mean? For me, it's what's best for the country. I really don't care who's in charge. It's whatever's going to move the country forward and keep us as the number one country in the world. That's what I support.

[John King]

What do you think happens to you, if anything, if he wins?

[Michael Pacey]

So it's funny, someone asked me that last week because of being on here and how I feel. About things. And, you know, people are like, well, aren't you worried? And I'm like, well, you know, in the back of your mind, you worry about those things. I think the biggest thing will, you know, people will be like, I told you so. Told you so. And I can live with that. My hope is, is that, you know, he loses and he just fades into the annals of history, and we move on and we get back to doing what Americans are supposed to be doing.

[John King]

But you don't feel threatened in any way.

[Michael Pacey]

Not. Not now. That could change. You know, come see me at the end of January if he wins, and we'll see how things are looking then.

[John King]

Well, it's nice to see you again.

[Joan London]

Good to see you, John.

[John King]

All right, everybody. Good. Joan London is a lawyer from the Philly suburbs. She lives in Berks county now. She's a proud Reagan Republican, fiscally conservative, believes in protecting American interests overseas. Like Michael, she knew from the beginning she could not vote for Trump. But until a few weeks ago, she wasn't planning to vote for Harris. After the debate, you made a pretty big decision. Tell me why.

[Joan London]

What happened was this. I was at the point where I had even decided for whom I was going to protest vote. It was going to be fellow Pennsylvanian Senator Toomey. I figured that would be a perfect protest vote. But then I was watching the debate, and there was the usual Trump hyperbole and millions and millions and billions and billions short on specifics. Then, of course, there was him again, spreading the rumor about Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio. But that wasn't the last straw. It was close, but the last straw was where he said that we have to have a negotiated settlement in the Ukraine because President Putin has nuclear weapons, and we could have World War Three if we don't. And for someone who claims to be a conservative to say that was, in my opinion, outrageous. It's appeasement. It's dangerous. If we're not required to put up with individuals walking into our country illegally, and I don't believe that we are required to tolerate people walking into our country illegally. And he was the first to say that he wanted to build a wall and he wants to deport everybody who's here illegally, then why is it that the Ukraine should have to tolerate an invasion of its sovereignty? Because it's the same premise, and you shouldn't have to negotiate the end to that. Certainly the Republican Party that I grew up with believed that you don't tolerate communist dictators. In this case, the former head of the KGB walking into A sovereign country, you do what you have to do to fight that. So that was really the moment. And I remember the next morning realizing that I had absolutely changed my mind. And even though I have serious policy differences with Vice President Harris, I decided that this time it wasn't so much about policy. And this, in this instance, it was about policy, but also about, about character in general.

[John King]

So help me, what was your decision that I, I can't risk a protest vote that might help Trump. I need to actually vote against him. I can't just stay on, be on the sideline. What was the math calculation?

[Joan London]

The math calculation was exactly that. I, I needed to vote against allowing him to become president again. That way, if it does happen, and it could, because it's a dead heat in almost all of the swing states. But I don't want it on my conscience that I contributed in some way to that. I would rather argue against bad policies and temper those for four years. Let the Republican Party lose. Let them rebuild. They will rebuild as a traditional conservative party as opposed to a populist party of tariffs. Sometimes you have to say American first, conservative second, Republican third.

[John King]

What is your personal math? You were here in 2016, obviously, and in 2020. Trump narrowly wins in 2016, Biden wins narrowly, a little bit more, but narrowly in 2020. Just what does your gut tell you about this, about how close it is and if you had to pick, you know, as we head into the final stretch, do you see someone with an advantage or do you just see a photo finish? And who knows?

[Joan London]

I see the photo finish and I don't see the finish on election night or even in the week of election day. I see the finish probably in court at some point in December, like in 2000. I think the country is that polarized that it is that close. Maybe it's just the lawyer in me, but I have the feeling that it ends in court and I don't know which way that it ends. I just hope that whichever judges hear it are fair minded. But credibility is everything with the courts, and I hope that judges will handle this in a fair minded way.

[John King]

Let me close by asking you about your own plans in the final stretch here. You're going to vote for a candidate with whom you have pretty significant differences because of a question of principle. Does that mean you try to convince any friends to do that too? Or is it just, I've made my decision, I'm at peace with it, and that's it.

[Joan London]

I have made my decision and I'm at peace with it. This is not an election where I'm judging anyone else. I have friends who are voting for Trump. I have friends who are voting for Harris. I have friends who are leaving the top of the ticket blank voting, third party, protest voting. These are very difficult choices. I don't judge anybody. I just tell people what, what I'm going to do and why. Because we have someone who is running, who is policy wise on most things. I agree, I agree with more. But in terms of character and in terms of that one foreign policy stance in particular on the Ukraine and on the issue of tariffs and generally on pitting people against each other, having incited a riot once and maybe would do it again, that's a huge concern. So that's not a person for whom I would vote. But I'm not going to overly try to influence others. Let's lead by example.

[Cynthia Sabatini]

I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast.

[Joan London]

If you think about your devices that can integrate vocal biomarkers to help understand your health, that's really where the future is going, in my opinion.

[Cynthia Sabatini]

Dr. Yael Bunsusan is a laryngologist. She is director of the University of South Florida's Health Voice Center. She is co leading research there on using AI to try and detect diseases and perhaps even treat them.

[John King]

Listen to Chasing Life streaming now.

[Cynthia Sabatini]

Wherever you get your podcasts.

[John King]

We're getting to the end here. Have you made up your mind?

[Cynthia Sabatini]

No.

[John King]

Cynthia Sabatini lives in Media, Pennsylvania. That's Delaware County. She does consulting work in the pharmaceutical industry. Are you leaning one way or the other?

[Cynthia Sabatini]

Well, let me put it to you this way, that I am disenchanted with the Democratic Party and it's causing me to view Harris in a slightly different light. And the reason I'm disenchanted with the Democratic Party has to do with the local Democratic Party that runs the township, runs the school board and runs the county. They have no sense of fiscal responsibility to the taxpayers. They're just about instituting new taxes to provide more and more services, not all of which are necessary.

[John King]

And so you're mad about a local issue. And is she going to pay the price for that?

[Cynthia Sabatini]

She may. She may. Because the way I view the Democratic Party is they are the party of big government that likes to spend money. And as the Democratic Party has become more of the party of the college educated and affluent, they take full advantage of that because that group has the greater financial bandwidth. That's why they've lost the working class party, because they're struggling under the economic reign of terror of the Democrats.

[John King]

If you can't vote for her, does that mean you vote for Trump?

[Cynthia Sabatini]

No. Trump is a non starter for me. So he's not a consideration because I don't view the tax plan that he put into effect when he was president to be sound either.

[John King]

Is that it about him? Is it because you didn't like his economic plan or do you have other reservations that you think I don't want a return of the Trump presidency Because.

[Cynthia Sabatini]

Well, I don't think Trump is necessarily dignified to be president. He says outrageous things and on a world stage, do we want this individual representing us? And also January 6th to me was the breaking point, quite honestly. Now, I didn't vote for him in 2016, I didn't vote for him in 2020, so I was never predisposed to vote for him. Even though I am a registered Republican and feel a kinship with the Republican Party on their traditional economic stances on January 6, 2021. That just put the nail in his coffin for me. If I had, if I would ever entertain voting for him.

[John King]

So if Nikki Haley were the Republican nominee, this would be a no brainer for you?

[Cynthia Sabatini]

Oh, I would likely vote for her, absolutely. In fact, she's an individual under consideration for me to write in. To write in, to write in. But I haven't made up my mind.

[John King]

So let's walk through that. What could the Vice President do to convince you she's not the local Democrats I'm mad at? Is there anything she could do?

[Cynthia Sabatini]

Sure, sure. She never answered, has never answered directly how she's going to pay for the $25,000 subsidy for first time homeowners, the $50,000 deduction, business owners, the $6,000, the expansion of the child tax credit. Please tell us. All she says is, I'm not going to tax those who are making $400,000 per year. Are you talking about couples? Are you talking about individuals at that level? Are you talking about earned income? I'm a numbers person. I want to know the specifics. We have a looming federal deficit. At some point the piper will have to be paid. So tell me, show me the calculations. Everything I've read is that she's poised under her plans to increase the deficit by $3.2 trillion.

[John King]

Those studies also say that Trump's plan would increase it even more.

[Cynthia Sabatini]

Even more so. But Trump's not a consideration, right? Yeah, for me.

[John King]

So she needs to connect some dots that in your view, she has just not connected. Yeah, she hasn't done the math. Right.

[Cynthia Sabatini]

For you See, to me, this is a very sensitive issue. It's sensitive at the local level, it's sensitive at the national level. And I now am highly more sensitized about this because what's going on in my local township, where I just attended a meeting two nights ago about the imposition of a new tax, which will cost me dearly.

[John King]

How do you run the math in your head in the sense that you didn't vote for him in 2016 or 2020. He won here in 2016 and he went on to be president. He lost here in 2020 and Joe Biden became president. It's closer this time if you believe the data.

[Cynthia Sabatini]

I know it is.

[John King]

And so who do you not want more in the sense that if you write in somebody, you could be helping Trump?

[Cynthia Sabatini]

Well, you know, John, I have Democratic friends who've posed that question to me, and they also felt that I helped Trump win here in 2016 by writing in Senator Susan Collins. I really don't care what they personally think about that. To me, I don't want to be forced into making a decision between one of the two. And I think it speaks to the fact that I don't like the two party system. In a country of 340 million people, we're reduced to this. I would much prefer a parliamentary system.

[John King]

You can make that case, that or other political reforms. But. But there's an election days away from now.

[Cynthia Sabatini]

I know, I know. And I have to deal with the reality. I know that. And that's why I'm still on the fence.

[John King]

Right. So what do you do? What do you do in the few days you have left? Is it just waiting to see if she answers your question? So it's really on her because you're not gonna vote for him?

[Cynthia Sabatini]

No, I'm not voting for Trump. I am praying for divine intervention. I may go back to church. No. Okay, let me not be flip.

[John King]

No, no, no. Everyone makes their decisions their own way. But is it a for you? It's math. You want to see her spreadsheet? You know, some people say, I want to know who she is. I don't know. You know, I want everybody to close my eyes and say, she's a president.

[Cynthia Sabatini]

Who she is? I don't know who she is. Really, I really don't. Because she had different positions than she does now. But she continues to say they're still within your value system. So connect the dots for me, Vice President Harris, how does your value system affect your change in policies? I believe she's a person of character. I have no qualms about that. I really do. I think she's an upstanding individual. It's just that I really don't know what to expect from her if she is indeed elected. I don't, I don't know what her positions will be. Is she merely running towards the middle because she wants to win these swing states? I really don't know who she is. I certainly didn't get an idea of who she was as vice president. Now, that may be unfair because vice presidents are second bananas to the president, but in this three month period of time, I just don't have assurances of who she is and whether she'll revert to earlier beliefs. Will she be tough on the border? And she never answers anything directly.

[John King]

In the end, I just make sure I have this right. In the end, she can win your vote, but if she doesn't, you won't give it to her just because you don't want Trump.

[Cynthia Sabatini]

I don't know, because there could be something else that bubbles to the surface, something that is egregious, something that is world shaking, that makes me think, you know, I better rethink this. I better vote for her. I will tell you now, I have decided it won't be until election day that I bring my mail in ballot to the courthouse and drop it in the drop off box at the courthouse in media.

[John King]

So you're gonna sit here on the morning of election day and fill that out?

[Cynthia Sabatini]

Yep.

[John King]

Or maybe the night before, but you.

[Cynthia Sabatini]

Think it'll be maybe the night before.

[John King]

But you think it'll go right to the end?

[Cynthia Sabatini]

I do, I do. That's how I'm inclined.

[John King]

So then help me with this one. Finish the sentence. Madam Vice President, if you want my vote here in the very important Philadelphia suburbs, you need to do.

[Cynthia Sabatini]

You need to answer questions on point. You need to provide more details about your economic plan. You need to provide more details about your vision also for this country. Now, she's addressed that somewhat, but I'm, you know, I'm a bottom line person. I want details. I think Trump's going to win. The lion's share of my friends and family are Democrats. They think at the 11th hour people will have such reservations about Trump that it will cause them to vote for Harris. I don't see it that way.

[Allie Malloy]

We're on tour this week. That's what I've been calling it.

[John King]

Yeah. Taylor's opening for us.

[Allie Malloy]

And we've lost.

[John King]

That's what happens when you're on the road for 15 months. Allie from Allentown. That's Allie Malloy, currently Allie in Tucson with me in this temporary studio courtesy of Marriott. Allie's been my sidekick for months now through the jet lag, through state after state after state, all the rest of it. So what do you think when you listen to these three?

[Allie Malloy]

You know, obviously a lot about what we do is anecdotal. And these voters, they don't represent Pennsylvania as a whole, obviously, but they do represent these unsatisfied voters who, whether or not they are for Trump or for Harris or for neither, speaks to the frustration and just the lack of choices and people making their choices based on being against something.

[John King]

No, they are interesting and they're critical in the short term. And they're also part of a fascinating question that's going to live with us beyond this election, which is what happens to the Republican Party if Trump loses? That debate starts right away. If Trump wins. That debate is more of a mumble among those who don't like Trump, but he'll be dominant for a while. So we'll be talking to these voters for years to see what happens. But right now they matter because 155,000 people voted for Nikki Haley long after she was out of the race. That tells you something. They do not want to vote for Donald Trump. In fact, they want to vote against him. Joe Biden won Pennsylvania by 80,000 votes. The math is pretty simple. You have 155,000 people in a state that was last decided by 80,000 votes and decided by half that when Trump won it in 2016 for Harris. The challenge is win them over.

[Allie Malloy]

John, a lot of people ask us how we find these voters. We have a great team who spend hours trying to find them. And in recent weeks, it's gotten a little bit harder. A lot of people, particularly moderates, don't see the upside in it. What do you think that's about?

[John King]

It's about polarization. It's about safety. I don't mean that in a life or death way. I mean that in a grief during your life way. We have had some people who have said that being part of the series has caused them grief, have had friends get in their face. I've had friends say, how can you possibly think that way if they own a business? There's been online posting saying boycott them. And you have a lot of these people who say, you know what? You're at the point now where you're going to ask me, you know, who am I going to vote for? And if I tell you, I'm Going to take grief for it? No, thank you. And I respect it. I respect it. But it makes me all the more grateful for those who have continued to stay in this conversation.

[Allie Malloy]

So we've been to most of the battlegrounds in the last few weeks, but in the last two weeks or so in our visit to Pennsylvania exemplified this. There does kind of seem to be this pessimism on both sides of the aisle about the election. And even if you think that your candidate is going to win or you're not sure, it just. There's a darkness almost around the country on both sides or an unsureness.

[John King]

Yeah, you're right. I would call it a sense of apprehension, a lot of anxiety. This is supposed to be a celebration even if your candidate loses. This is what makes America unique. We have a presidential election every four years. We have a peaceful transfer of power. The winner gets a parade down Pennsylvania Avenue, and you give that person a brief honeymoon. And then, yeah, if your guys or Gail didn't win, then you start organizing for the next one. That's the way it's supposed to work. But everybody is scarred in different ways by what happened four years ago. Everybody is scarred by what they saw on January 6, by the fact that the campaign really never ended. It's a whole new world. And it leaves people a mix of anxious and apprehensive and doubtful and pessimistic and cynical about something that is supposed to be our most glorious celebration, win, lose or draw. And that's sad. That's sad, but it is very real.

[Allie Malloy]

So, John, what do you think's going to happen this week?

[John King]

Well, you know, I don't know the answer to that question. The most fascinating thing to me is that that now is part of our job, too. It's part of our job, too. I mean, I used to, you know, even back in my AP days, before I came to CNN and television, election night was the big night. You wrote the analysis about how and why it happened. The whole time you're thinking, next week I'm on vacation. Right. And now you have people asking, is it going to be a civil war? And they're not joking that to me. And I was going to say it's a parallel universe, but it's not. It's our universe. I mean, people are having these questions and conversations about what should we be thinking about. It's on voters minds all across the country. Democrats, Republicans, Independents. And guess what? It has to be part of our planning and what we do for a living, which is a whole new world.

[Allie Malloy]

I can't let myself think about it. If I'm talking about what Ali the non journalist is thinking, Ali the journalist is just preparing and ready for whatever comes and also has her vacation plans on hold. I'm worried. But I do think hearing from our voters does give me some hope because we hear from a lot of people and no one wants the unrest. I believe in the best of America still, and that might be maybe even naive, but I've seen it this past year on the road. So I still hold out hope. But am I preparing for the other options? Yes.

[John King]

This podcast version of all over the Map is a CNN audio production. Our show producers are Grace Walker, Jesse Remedios and Ally Molloy. Our editor is Graylin Brashear, and our senior producers are Dan Bloom and Haley Thomas. Dan Dezulla is our technical director and Steve Lichti is executive producer of CNN Audio. Support from Nikki Robertson, Jacqueline Kahlo, Alex Manassari, Robert Mathers, John Dianora, Laney Steinhardt, Jamis Andrest, Nicole Pesaru, and Lisa Namaro. Special thanks to Wendy Brundage and Katie Hinman. I'm John King. Thanks for listening.

[Allie Malloy]

This week on the Assignment with me, Audie Cornish. My guest is Larry Wilmore. He's a writer and producer who's worked on some of the most successful shows of the century. In Living Color, the Bernie Mac show, the Daily Show, Blackish, Insecure. We're just naming a few, but in his heart, he's still a comedian.

[John King]

I'm getting back into doing standup again, which I really haven't done full time in a while. So.

[Cynthia Sabatini]

Wait.

[John King]

What?

[Allie Malloy]

Wait a second. Like, you're going.

[John King]

You're doing open mics? I'm going up Saturday night. I'm gonna start working on a new hour. Yeah. So it's a little scary.

[Michael Pacey]

Audie, don't get me wrong.

[Allie Malloy]

I can imagine. What do you think is pulling at your chest here?

[John King]

I feel like I have to say something.

[Michael Pacey]

I can't stay silent anymore about just.

[John King]

The world that I'm in.

[Allie Malloy]

Listen to the Assignment with me, Audie Cornish. Streaming now on your favorite podcast app.