Persuadable: Scrolling Alone

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Account from CNN Episode: Persuadable: Scrolling Alone Release Date: May 14, 2025

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In the episode titled "Persuadable: Scrolling Alone," CNN Senior Correspondent Donnie O’Sullivan delves into the intricate world of deeply held beliefs, both external and his own. This episode marks a significant shift as O’Sullivan turns the lens inward, examining his personal struggles and the broader societal issues that contribute to the formation and entrenchment of extreme beliefs.

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2. Donnie O’Sullivan's Personal Story

The episode opens with Donnie O’Sullivan sharing a poignant personal anecdote:

Donnie O'Sullivan [01:00]: "Very short video I shot of myself a few years ago... I’m Donnie O' Sullivan and this is Persuadable."

O’Sullivan reveals a hidden video where he confronts his battle with depression, emphasizing the importance of self-care and maintaining connections to prevent isolation. This introspective moment sets the stage for the episode's exploration of loneliness and belief systems.

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3. Interview with Diane Benskoder: From Moonies to Antidote

O’Sullivan introduces Diane Benskoder, an expert on cults and former member of the Unification Church, also known as the Moonies. Diane recounts her journey:

Diane Benskoder [03:20]: "I just really wanted so much for my life to have more meaning... And I knew that I couldn't do that."

She describes how her quest for meaning led her to the Moonies, drawn in by their sense of purpose and community. Diane's experience mirrors the allure of other extreme belief systems, highlighting the vulnerability of individuals seeking connection and understanding.

Donnie O’Sullivan [04:17]: "Diane now runs a nonprofit called Antidote, which helps people trying to free loved ones from controlling groups."

Diane emphasizes the similarities between cults and conspiracy theory groups like QAnon, both of which can trap individuals in harmful belief systems through intense community bonds and persuasive ideologies.

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4. The Role of Empathy in Breaking False Beliefs

A central theme of the episode is empathy. Diane discusses how understanding the underlying pain that drives individuals into these belief systems is crucial for helping them break free:

Diane Benskoder [10:35]: "I think if you understand that the person is not just stupid, if you understand that what has happened to them could happen to anyone, you can get to empathy faster."

She argues that confronting pain and offering genuine support can dismantle the allure of extreme beliefs, which often exploit individuals' vulnerabilities.

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5. Decline of Community and Civic Engagement

The conversation shifts to Robert Putnam's seminal work, "Bowling Alone," which examines the decline of American civic engagement. Diane summarizes Putnam's theory:

Diane Benskoder [15:02]: "Social capital, social connections, community connections have value for people... all these things began doing less, connecting less with other people."

The decline in community involvement has significant repercussions, including increased loneliness and susceptibility to extremist ideologies.

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6. Consequences of Civic Decline: Loneliness and Conspiracy Theories

Rebecca, a video producer for NBC News, shares her experiences witnessing the impacts of declining civic engagement:

Rebecca [17:08]: "Suicide is up 30% in the US since Bowling Alone came out in 2000... for the health of our democracy."

The erosion of trust in institutions and decreased community participation have fueled the rise of conspiracy theories, making society more fragmented and polarized.

Donnie O'Sullivan [22:10]: "When you have a low trust society where not a lot of people are participating in civic life, powerful institutions no longer have watchdogs."

This lack of oversight and engagement creates fertile ground for misinformation and extremist narratives to flourish.

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7. Solutions: Rebuilding Community and Increasing Civic Participation

The episode explores practical solutions to counteract these societal issues. The key recommendation is rebuilding community through active participation:

Rebecca [28:00]: "If we can all take an assessment of our life and say, what am I doing alone right now that I could be doing together... start a movie watching club."

Donnie emphasizes the importance of joining clubs and engaging in group activities to foster a sense of belonging and purpose:

Donnie O'Sullivan [28:17]: "Join a club. That gives you purpose, that gives you community, but also it allows somebody to check you on something, doesn't it?"

This approach not only combats loneliness but also creates supportive environments where individuals are less likely to fall into harmful belief systems.

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8. Final Reflections and Conclusions

Donnie O’Sullivan concludes the episode with a realistic yet hopeful outlook:

Donnie O'Sullivan [29:09]: "Things really aren't great right now, but as the saying goes, the best way out is always through. And like I told myself in that video I talked about at the start of this episode, you can get through this. We can get through this."

He acknowledges the severity of the current societal challenges but underscores the power of empathy and community in overcoming them. The production team is also acknowledged for their contributions, highlighting the collaborative effort behind the podcast.

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Key Takeaways

• Empathy is Crucial: Understanding and addressing the underlying pain and loneliness that drive individuals into extreme belief systems can facilitate their recovery.

• Community Decline Fuels Extremism: The erosion of social connections and civic engagement creates an environment where conspiracy theories and cults can thrive.

• Rebuilding Community is Vital: Encouraging participation in clubs, groups, and community activities can strengthen social bonds and reduce vulnerability to harmful ideologies.

• Hope Through Connection: Despite the pervasive societal issues, fostering empathy and rebuilding community offers a path toward healing and resilience.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Donnie O’Sullivan [01:00]: "I know that future me might need a reminder that even when my depression is very bad, that it was going to get better."

• Diane Benskoder [10:35]: "I think if you understand that the person is not just stupid, if you understand that what has happened to them could happen to anyone, you can get to empathy faster."

• Diane Benskoder [15:02]: "Social capital, social connections, community connections have value for people... and then they began doing less, connecting less with other people."

• Donnie O'Sullivan [22:10]: "When you have a low trust society where not a lot of people are participating in civic life, powerful institutions no longer have watchdogs."

• Donnie O'Sullivan [28:17]: "Join a club. That gives you purpose, that gives you community, but also it allows somebody to check you on something, doesn't it?"

• Donnie O'Sullivan [29:09]: "Things really aren't great right now, but... you can get through this. We can get through this."

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This episode of The Account offers a profound exploration of the interplay between individual well-being, community engagement, and the susceptibility to extreme beliefs. Through personal narratives and expert insights, Donnie O’Sullivan provides listeners with both a sobering analysis and a roadmap for fostering a more connected and empathetic society.

Transcript

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[Donnie O'Sullivan]

Very short video I shot of myself a few years ago. I deliberately hid it in an obscure folder in my phone because I didn't want to look at it, but I knew at some point I might need to. In the video, I'm alone and I'm crying on my couch and I'm saying to myself over and over again, I'll get through it. I'll get through it. I'm coming to it. It's very hard to watch. I think in my mind as I made the video. At the time, I knew that future me might need a reminder that even when my depression is very bad, that it was going to get better. But I also think I meant it as a bit of a kick up the ass for myself to say, look, Dhoni, this is how bad things can get for you. When you don't take care of yourself and you don't take care of your mind, when you don't maintain connections and a community of support. Our minds can be lonely places, isolating. Whether you're like me, digging yourself into a hole of believing wrong and terrible things about yourself, or you're like some of the people I've talked to in making this podcast who've fallen down holes of believing wrong and terrible things about the world and who found themselves more alone than ever, I think it's pretty human to only wake up to a crisis when it's too late. And I think if you're one of the many, many people who found yourself alone in one of these ways, it might feel like it's too late. But it's not. I'm Donnie o' Sullivan and this is persuadable.

[Diane Benskoder]

I just really wanted so much for my life to have more meaning. I knew that if I didn't do something drastic that I would end up marrying the boy down the street. And I knew that I couldn't do that.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

And so then you found the Moonies.

[Diane Benskoder]

Yeah.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

Are the Moonies found you?

[Diane Benskoder]

Yes.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

People who go really deep on conspiracy theory beliefs like QAnon can start to sound like they're in a cult. And Diane Benskoder is an expert on cults. When she was a teenager, she was recruited into the Unification Church, otherwise known as the Moonies. It was led by a charismatic Korean man named Son Myung Moon, who claimed to be the second coming of Christ and had millions of devoted followers.

[Diane]

I have a mission to share this revelation with you and the rest of the world.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

I first met Diane when I was making the documentary on Michael, the QAnon leader who convinced so many people to descend upon Dallas in 2021 for what might be the return of JFK or JFK Jr. Diane now runs a non profit called Antidote, which helps people trying to free loved ones from controlling groups. Groups that are built around conspiracy theories, hate or groups that we might traditionally think of as a cult. And what Diane does really well is make the connection of the similarities between people who are very deep down rabbit holes of conspiracy theories and people who are in cults. And it really starts with her own story which begins in a small town called York, Nebraska in. In 1974.

[Diane Benskoder]

I was 17. There was a lot of social unrest in society, Especially young people were disconnected from the politics of the era. A lot of young people were rebelling against what was going on in society. And I felt let down by my parents generation. And I also felt like they just didn't understand. I wasn't angry at them for it. I just wanted them to understand that I needed to do something different.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

Diane dropped out of high school and moved to the big city of Lincoln, Nebraska. She had an idea that she could write for the local paper. And she stumbled across what she thought could be her first story. Some activists organizing a multi state march for peace.

[Diane Benskoder]

So it was a walk from Omaha to Des Moines. It was five days. So I went to the little house where we were going to begin the walk and there were all these kind of weirdly dressed people that were sponsoring this. But they were really friendly, like super friendly. And it was the Mooney's.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

She went with them. And over those five days during lectures in church basements that night where the group would camp out, she got sucked in.

[Diane Benskoder]

They were asking me questions. No one asked me. They cared about what mattered to me. And they were really sincere in believing that I was something special. When they told me that they thought God had prepared me to be part of this great thing that was happening, it made sense to me. I started thinking, this explains everything. This is why I didn't feel like I fit in. God was calling me. The pain that I was experiencing as a young person confused about the world I lived in was totally gone. To feel like that idealism that I held so close to my heart was right, that I should believe in a better world. That felt so good. It was my dream come true, really.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

She moved into a house with other members of the church. Her family was concerned.

[Diane Benskoder]

I invited my family to the lectures, but no one was very interested. They had prepared me for that, though. They told me that Satan works through the ones you love.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

Diane's life completely changed.

[Diane Benskoder]

I didn't have to question the meaning of my life. I didn't have to question or grapple with the complexities of the world. And so that part felt great. But it's not very fulfilling, life to be part of a cult. It's hard. At least it was for me.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

The church had rules for everything. What to wear, say, do, feel, think. And it worked its members hard.

[Diane Benskoder]

I was assigned to what was called the mobile fundraising teams. We were the soldiers. We were the front line of God's work. We worked, I mean, 18 hours a day. Many days I was out on the streets selling candy and flowers.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

Diane gave five years of her life to the Mooneys. Her entire identity, her purpose, it was all tied up in the church. But cracks had started to form. And one day when she was staying with family, she had a surprise visitor. It was a former member of the Mooney's who her parents had called in to try to talk Diane out of returning to the church.

[Diane Benskoder]

I thought maybe I'd bring her back into the fold. You know, I thought, well, here's an ex Mooney. She's just confused. Satan has gotten to her and I'm going back to headquarters. Maybe I could bring her with me. So I thought I'd go back a hero. But as she started talking to me, she started making sense. And it was like a whisper in the back of my mind, what if this whole thing is a lie? Started to come to my mind, you know, after about day two, day three of her talking with me, I just couldn't hang on anymore.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

Diane got out, and she's devoted her life since to helping other people get out of cults and rabbit holes, of extreme and conspiracy theory beliefs. Diane says the key to helping people break free is what we've heard over and over again in this podcast. It's empathy. And like others we've spoken to, Diane says it can be hard for us to access our own empathy for somebody who believes things that we don't. But her own experience and that of so many of the people she has met over the years has made her understand what all opens the door to that empathy. It's pain. Pain is what leads people down rabbit holes, and all of us feel pain.

[Diane Benskoder]

I have found that there's kind of a cult for everyone. If anger, for instance, is the main thing you feel, then you might be drawn to a hate group because it gives you an enemy and it gives you someone to blame. And I think that can happen with confusion about the world you live in, with feeling like you don't fit in, or with loneliness. Remember, this is all happening on a psychological level. People think it happens on a cognitive level and that these are logical decisions that people are making. But most decisions are made from a place of wanting to feel better. You want to feel better when you're in pain. And I think if you understand that the person is not just stupid, if you understand that what has happened to them could happen to anyone, you can get to empathy faster. I think it's so easy to get, in fact, arguments. I think that's one of the problems with people who are experts in disinformation is they're focusing on, this is wrong, this is right, this is where the light comes from. This is where it's going. That's where all the research is. That's what people are talking about. And they're missing the fact of why. There's a purpose in this disinformation. And it's packaged this way for a reason. It's aiming straight at people's pain and people's need for community.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

That's what so many of us are missing right now. Not necessarily a community that shares every belief we have, but any kind of community.

[Diane Benskoder]

I think people are really in distress and confused and angry and scared and feel lonely, and those are hard emotions to deal with. So how do we mend those fences and realize we're all in this together? You know.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

More than anybody else that I spoke to in making this series, Diane made the point about the universality of our vulnerability to false belief so clear. There's a cult for all of us. Maybe it's just a matter of being in the wrong frame of mind at the wrong time. But there's hope here, too, because it's true that empathy and connection are the route to helping people get out of the darkest holes of false belief. And we're also starting to understand that social connection is the key to preventing the fall in the first place. We'll be right back.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

Foreign I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast.

[Meg Tirrell]

My name's Meg Tirrell. I'm a CNN medical correspondent. Dr. Jen Gunter is a gynecologist and author. Her book the Menopause Manifesto is a New York Times bestseller. Sanjay has once again agreed to pass me the mic. If you want a little help separating menopause myths from the actual medicine, this one's for you.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

Listen to Chasing Life streaming now wherever you get your podcasts. People have a community sized hole in their heart. They have a meaning hole in their heart and something's gonna fill it.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

Pete Davis is a self described civics nerd. And when he was a student at Harvard, his entire understanding of how democracy works was turned on its head by one of his professors, the political scientist Robert Putnam.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

We think that politics is about what goes on in Washington. What was so amazing about Robert Putnam as a professor was, you know, he was saying, actually the center of gravity of our democracy is what happens in ordinary neighborhoods all across the country. It's our civic life, it's our neighbor to neighbor interactions, it's the clubs that we're part of.

[Diane Benskoder]

This week on Booknotes, our guest is Robert Putnam, professor of Public policy at Harvard University.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

Putnam is best known for his book Bowling Alone. It came out in the year 2000 and it's about the decline of American civic engagement. ROBERT D. Putnam, AUTHOR of Bowling Alone what's the theory of your book?

[Diane]

The theory is that social capital, social connections, community connections have value for people. And for most of the last century or so, that was more and more true. And then somehow mysteriously, all those trends turned downward and began doing all those things less, connecting less with other people. And so this book is about why it happened and what difference it makes and what we might do about it.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

That decline in ordinary neighbour to neighbour connections and people participating in clubs, unions and bowling leagues, it continued. Peace took Robert Putnam's class about a decade after Bowling Alone came out. At that point, most people weren't really feeling the impacts of the great decline, or at least they hadn't noticed them yet.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

We were actually in a pretty like hopeful civic time. You know, most people at the time thought the latest startup was going to solve everything. You know, Facebook was going to connect the world. The latest politician was going to bring a new generation of hope and change into our country. And over the 10 years since the class, every year it's gotten worse and worse and worse and worse civically, and the symptoms are piling and piling up.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

Those symptoms of our civic decline were things that Pete's sister Rebecca was confronting every day. She was working as a video producer for NBC News, doing stories on the opioid crisis, school shootings, disinformation, and political polarization. And she'd started to feel conflicted.

[Rebecca]

I was hitting a point where I was just feeling I could not continue to cover the symptoms over and over again, even when it wasn't a major tragedy that I was out covering. I was also just walking around talking to people who just felt like things were off in their community. Occasionally, you know, were expressing to me that they didn't trust the work that we were doing. So I was feeling that decline in trust in the media. And so I got to this point was I was like, what's the point?

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

Pete and Rebecca started working on a documentary about Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone research. To them, it felt like Putnam's work and his warnings were more important than ever. People are divided. Trust in institutions is low, and maybe most urgently, people are lonely. Their documentary, which came out last year, has a clear get involved, join a club, meet your neighbors, gather with people. They gave it a kind of dramatic join or die. The urgency is the point.

[Rebecca]

Suicide is up 30% in the US since Bowling Alone came out in 2000. So for our physical health, we need to be joining things, and then also for the health of our democracy. If we don't start joining and participating, it's not a given that our democracy is going to be around, and it's certainly not functioning as well as it could be.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

The last time this was pulled, clearly, 40% of Americans belong to no groups, and then two thirds belong to none or only one. So 70 years ago, that would have been. Most people would have belonged to 3, 4, 5 groups. It would have been very normal. It's very generational. Every succeeding generation is belonging to less and less.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

You mentioned, obviously, Bowling Alone was released in 2000. And I think what's important about it is that it. It serves as a reminder that community in the US Was declining and in trouble long before Facebook, long before Twitter. But obviously, what has happened since, I mean, shit has really Hit the fan since this book has come out, you.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

Know, it's gotten worse.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

Yeah. And I think about this sometimes in terms of. I spoke to some evangelical pastors a few years ago who were losing congregants, and obviously there's lots of factors there, but one thing they did say is, look, I only have an hour a week with people. Facebook has them for the other 167 hours in the week.

[Rebecca]

Yes, yes.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

These tools, these phones, they are very effective at building a specific type of community that is an online community, and it's very hard to compete with that. That poses a unique challenge.

[Rebecca]

You know, I think we should remember who is giving us the language with which we talk about these platforms. So, you know, Facebook and many other of these groups have taken the words of community. You know, they've even had it as elements of their application, like groups, groups, community. But I think, you know, the language matters, and I think we should be conscious of that and take some of that back. You know, these are tools, and they can be used to do good organizing out in the world where we're meeting face to face and building actual community, you know, that is worthy of that word. That's not to say you can't build some level of community that is strictly online, but are you shutting down that application to go to bed and feeling filled up in the same way as a dinner party with good friends? And the answer's no.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

We're settling for this junk version of community. You know, candy fills you up and gives you a sugar high, but, you know, a good, hearty meal gives you all these other things that keep you healthy. And so, you know, what. What is the low plateau that we're settling for?

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

For my job, I go to a lot of Trump rallies, and I go to a lot of QAnon events, and I go to a lot of stuff that's really seems out there, but the one common thread through all of them is community. Yeah, people are gathering together and they're having a really good time.

[Rebecca]

Yeah, people are hungry for that connection. And I think there's a story of hope and a green shoot in that, that, you know, if we can create more spaces, more community, more places where people are feeling seen and known and just plain having fun. Then when QAnon come knocking on your door, you know, you're already busy on Tuesday night because you've got a Rotary Club meeting, or you've got a bowling league, and it's costume night down at the bowling league, and you're getting dressed up, you know, and Obviously, this isn't a new phenomenon just with the Internet. You know, the kkk, as Bob likes to point out, is also a club. But, you know, for the people that already had organizations speaking to that pro social side of their heart, they were going to be less vulnerable to get pulled into these groups that play on our worst sides.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

You guys have touched on the lack of trust in institutions, us all spending less time together in person. Where do you see the popularity of conspiracy theories fitting into all of this?

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

When you have a low trust society where not a lot of people are participating in civic life, powerful institutions no longer have watchdogs. The powerful actually become less trustworthy. Maybe the conspiracy theories are wrong about the mechanisms that work, but they're right about the direction that institutions stop looking out for you when you have a low civic society.

[Rebecca]

Yeah, an example that if you don't have a vibrant local newspaper, watchdogging, you know, to be able to expose misuse of funds at the city or state level, you know, there very well could.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

Be the mayor is more likely to be corrupt and, you know, be giving money to their friends. Even if the institutions are good, they're experienced as a black box because you're not participating in civic life. You don't have the relationships to the person that's working at city hall. And then even if city hall is perfect and they're angels and they're doing everything right, your mind is naturally going to go towards conspiracy theories because humans love pattern recognition and we go haywire with our pattern recognition. So, okay, those are the two negative things. You get corruption and then you get conspiracy theories. Both of these sides, they think they're gonna solve this without, you know, increasing civic life. The people on the inside keep saying, well, we need to explain ourselves better. We need to make sure we have a better marketing of all the good stuff we're doing. People on the outside, they think we're gonna throw the bums out and we're gonna put our guys in. But every time the conspiracy theorists successfully throw the bums out and put their guys in, what happens? They start having conspiracies about their own guys. They say, oh, he used to be with us, but now they got to him too. What is the answer to this? It's not better messaging. It's not throwing the bums out and getting your guys in. It's rejuvenating civic life. It's increasing community so that you blur the line between insiders and outsiders so that you actually know what's going on. And because you know what's going on, the mayor is less corrupt and you know how the government works more. And so that's one of the goals with this. We think there'll be less corruption and less conspiracy theories if there is more vibrant civic life.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

What I do find interesting and maybe potentially a sign of hope, is that a lot of younger people are less likely to be like, hey, I'm Democrat, hey, I'm Republican. It's more like both parties are flawed. And I have some thoughts that are Republican, some thoughts are Democrat. And I'm just wondering if maybe the next, as generations go, maybe that opens some more space.

[Rebecca]

Yeah, I think there's a hope but a fear there too, because that can quickly move into apathy. And when we're living in an apathetic country, I mean, that's when our democracy dies. So there is an opportunity with that generation, but we really need to capture them and get them involved and participating.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

We're actually at a most dangerous level when people feel like nothing. We want people feeling and being connected to a lot of things. Like, you know, the way that a forest is strong, not the way that a like vacuum is strong. The goal is an entire ecosystem of all the different ways that we are in the world. So, you know, you go to church and you're interacting with people of different races and cultures, and then you go to your bowling league and you're interacting with people of different religions and you go to your labor union and your might all be the same economic situation, but then you're learning across difference because you have to come together in solidarity to do a strike and then you're going to your political party and that's a different thing. And the goal is that by having multiple of these passions, it as a whole moderates you and moderates the system without ever having to turn down the dial on being passionate about things. It'll just naturally happen by being passionate about multiple things.

[Rebecca]

Yeah, there's been a lot of talk, you know, as we are living through this moment of hyper polarization, like we need to bridge more across the divide and how do we get a Republican in a room and Democrat and they can just talk to each other. And I think what Pete is speaking to here is we just need to bring more identities into our life so that one doesn't have quite such a intense level of hold on our lives. So that yes, maybe I voted this way at the ballot box and maybe this is how I participate politically, but I have five other hats that I also wear so that then when there are those Kind of, you know, disagreements across political lines. It isn't cutting so deeply that, you know, my whole life and my whole identity is coming from this.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

Are you guys members of any clubs, groups?

[Rebecca]

We are. So actually while we were producing this film, I was organizing a union with co workers. We were organizing about 200 of us.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

I'm part of a book club for people who are into this kind of democracy nerd stuff.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

How very good.

[Rebecca]

I used to play pickleball.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

Yeah, we're all so fun.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

I'm just thinking I'm not part of any clubs or groups. I have groups of friends. I mean, I work a lot. A few years ago, whatever my last major mental breakdown was, therapists asked me, what are your hobbies? And I realized I didn't have any. And so over the past few years I have made a very intentional effort to get some hobbies. So one I read more, I try and watch some actual non work related TV series and I go to the gym. But I'm realizing they're all quite isolating. I mean, I can have conversations about these things, but I'm doing it on my own.

[Rebecca]

Yeah. You know, these don't have to be heavy lifts. Like if we can all take an assessment of our life and say, what am I doing alone right now that I could be doing together? And you know, maybe that is going to the gym. Start going with a couple other folks. Maybe it is watching movies. Start a movie watching club where you discuss the film after the list goes on.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

Yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, a lot of what we're open to doing this series is helping people who are either in rabbit holes or conspiracy theories themselves or have loved ones in there, how to get out. And what I'm hearing from you guys is join a club.

[Rebecca]

Join a club.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

Yeah. That gives you purpose, that gives you community, but also it allows somebody to check you on something, doesn't it?

[Rebecca]

Yes.

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

Yes. Yeah. Which is part of community.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Rebecca]

Yep. The good news though, if you're starting a club, people are very available and I think that's what we want to start planting those seeds right now. And this isn't a problem that's going to turn around fast, but it is a problem that once it starts turning around, you know, there's a chance for things to spread exponentially. It also gives you a chance to be the president. If you're in a club, there are elections, there's a club president. And you know, if you're feeling a lack of agency, you know.

[Donnie O'Sullivan]

I don't consider myself a particularly optimistic person, at least not professionally. I've actually gotten into arguments with my editors about this. A lot of the stuff I cover, it's pretty dark. QAnon, cults, hate groups, and sometimes an editor will push for some kind of niche little solution at the end of a story. How can this all be fixed? And I normally don't have a solution. And frankly, I don't think it's my job to. It's not really the job of a journalist even to be particularly optimistic. Our jobs are about recording history and holding a mirror up to society. But I got to a point, I guess like Rebecca did, where I wanted to try and at least talk about a solution. And I think for a few years we were all kind of grappling with and frankly distracted by how seemingly new and novel and really bizarre conspiracy theories like QAnon are, and rightly concerned about how dangerous things like election denialism are. And so I don't think we could have made this podcast in 2020 or 2021. I don't think a lot of people would have had much appetite to try and empathetically understand what's happening in the mind of an anti vaxxer or an election denier. And it is scary how normal these very abnormal beliefs are becoming. Everyone seems to know someone down a rabbit hole or at least poking around one, and it's hard to accept that, but that is the reality. And it's particularly scary when you think of how many of these rabbit holes are lined with racism and anti Semitism and hate. Obviously, there is no shortage of dark historical parallels we can draw on when a large chunk of the population becomes untethered from reality and are willing to believe the worst about the other side. So that's the realist in me. Things really aren't great right now, but as the saying goes, the best way out is always through. And like I told myself in that video I talked about at the start of this episode, you can get through this. We can get through this. I'm Danie o' Sullivan and this is persuadable. Our producers are Graylin Brashear and Emily Williams. Hayley Thomas is our senior producer, Dan Dezulla is our technical director, and Steve Lichti is executive producer of CNN Audio, with support from Sean Clark, Logan Whiteside, Robert Mathers, Dan Bloom, Grace Walker, Jesse Remedios, Kira Daring and Jamis Andrust. A special thank you to Patricia DeCarlo and Wendy Brundage. Thank you for listening.

[Audie Cornish]

This week on the Assignment with me, Audie Cornish, Christine Emba. She's a contributing writer for the New York Times and a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

[Diane Benskoder]

People are joining more traditionalist denominations or churches, like they're going for the hard stuff.

[Audie Cornish]

The Pew Research center reports that the decline of Christianity in the US has slowed, maybe even leveled off, and that's thanks mainly to young people. But there are lots of questions about what's driving this trend and whether it will last. Listen to the Assignment with me, Audie Cornish, streaming now on your favorite podcast app.