Persuadable: Why Do We Believe Crazy S**t?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Account from CNN Episode: Persuadable: Why Do We Believe Crazy S**t? Release Date: April 30, 2025 Host: CNN Audio (Featuring CNN Senior Correspondent Donie O’Sullivan)

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Persuadable: Why Do We Believe Crazy S**t?", CNN Senior Correspondent Donie O’Sullivan delves deep into the psychology and sociology behind why individuals adopt extreme and unfounded beliefs. Drawing from his extensive experience reporting on fringe groups and "crazy" beliefs, O’Sullivan presents a narrative that is both personal and investigative, aiming to uncover the underlying factors that lead people down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories.

Personal Reflections and Motivation

Donie O’Sullivan opens the discussion by reflecting on his experiences in 2021, a year marked by witnessing mass gatherings rooted in false beliefs. He recounts being present during the January 6th Capitol riot and a later event in Dallas where QAnon followers awaited the supposed return of JFK and JFK Jr. These experiences prompted him to introspect and confront his own vulnerabilities to such beliefs.

Donie O’Sullivan [04:00]: "There’s no amount of reasoning or rationalization I can do to make me stop believing the thing I believe."

O’Sullivan emphasizes that his motivation to explore this topic stems from recognizing that anyone can be susceptible to extreme beliefs, highlighting his personal battles with depression and anxiety.

The Dallas Event and Michael Pratzman

The core of the episode revolves around the December 2021 gathering in Dallas, where followers believed they would witness the return of JFK and the reinstatement of Donald Trump as president. Central to this event was Michael Pratzman, an online persona known as "negative 48," who became a cult-like leader within this fringe group.

Michael Pratzman used platforms like Telegram to disseminate wild theories, intertwining historical figures with contemporary politics to create a convoluted narrative that captivated his followers.

Donie O’Sullivan [08:25]: "Michael Pratzman... his name was born from his obsession with Gematria."

As the event in Dallas unfolded without the anticipated appearance of JFK Jr., it became evident that Michael Pratzman's influence was both profound and manipulative. This led O’Sullivan to investigate Pratzman's background, ultimately interviewing his mother, Colleen Pratzman.

Interview with Colleen Pratzman

Colleen provides a poignant perspective on her son, revealing the transformation Michael underwent during and after the 2008 financial crash. Initially a compassionate individual who helped others, Michael's descent into conspiracy theories was triggered by personal and financial turmoil.

Colleen Pratzman [11:01]: "He just always wanted to help people... He was someone that didn't have money to waste."

Her account sheds light on how external stressors and trauma can push individuals towards seeking solace in elaborate belief systems, isolating them from their support networks.

Understanding the Psychology Behind Conspiracy Theories

To further dissect the phenomenon, O’Sullivan interviews Dr. Samuel Vesier, a cognitive scientist and therapist specializing in crisis intervention for individuals with extreme beliefs. Dr. Vesier dispels the misconception that conspiracy theories are merely a form of mental illness, instead highlighting the psychological and sociological factors that make such beliefs appealing.

Dr. Samuel Vesier [20:16]: "Human beings are not really convinced by facts. They're convinced by emotions. They're convinced by values. They're convinced by trust."

Key Insights from Dr. Vesier:

1. Complex Profile: Contrary to media portrayals, conspiracy theorists often possess above-average intelligence and a strong curiosity. They seek meaning, purpose, and community.

2. Psychological Distress: Many individuals drawn to conspiracy theories have experienced significant trauma or loss, leading them to externalize their pain by blaming societal or global forces.

3. Evolutionary Factors: Humans are evolutionarily wired to detect threats, making them more susceptible to conspiracy theories during times of uncertainty and upheaval, such as pandemics or economic crises.

4. Social Needs: The desire for belonging and community is a powerful motivator. Conspiracy theories offer a sense of agency and purpose, providing clear explanations and identifiable enemies.

Donie O’Sullivan’s Personal Struggles

O’Sullivan candidly shares his own experiences with mental health, drawing parallels between his battles with depression and anxiety and the pathological thinking seen in conspiracy theorists. He underscores the difficulty of combating irrational beliefs solely through logic and facts.

Donie O’Sullivan [27:17]: "And there's no amount of reasoning or rationalization I can do to make me stop believing the thing I believe."

This personal account reinforces the idea that addressing the emotional and psychological underpinnings is crucial in helping individuals extricate themselves from harmful belief systems.

Hope and the Path Forward

Despite the heavy subject matter, the episode concludes on a note of hope. O’Sullivan emphasizes the importance of empathy, understanding, and providing a safe space for individuals to reconnect with their communities and support systems.

Donie O’Sullivan [26:08]: "You have to find a community of people you feel safe with."

Dr. Vesier echoes this sentiment, expressing confidence in humanity’s capacity for empathy and the potential for healing through genuine connection and support.

Notable Quotes

• Donie O’Sullivan [12:20]: "But people do. And that has just caused so much pain, and it's caused me to lose my son, and it's caused those other people to lose their family members."

• Dr. Samuel Vesier [24:34]: "All of a sudden, you understand the world. You have meaning... You have purpose, you have community."

• Colleen Pratzman [15:35]: "Who knows why somebody falls for some of this? ... But people do."

Conclusion

"Persuadable: Why Do We Believe Crazy S**t?" offers a profound exploration into the allure of conspiracy theories, blending investigative journalism with personal narrative and expert analysis. Donie O’Sullivan effectively unpacks the multifaceted reasons behind extreme belief systems, advocating for empathy and understanding as key tools in addressing and mitigating the spread of misinformation. This episode serves as both a cautionary tale and a beacon of hope, reminding listeners of the power of human connection in overcoming the darkest corners of the human psyche.

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Key Takeaways:

1. Empathy Over Confrontation: Understanding the emotional and psychological needs that drive individuals to adopt extreme beliefs is more effective than simply debunking their ideas.

2. Community and Belonging: Providing a supportive community can help individuals find purpose and agency outside of harmful belief systems.

3. Personal Vulnerability: Acknowledging one’s own vulnerabilities and mental health struggles can foster a deeper connection and understanding when addressing others in similar situations.

4. Education and Awareness: Raising awareness about the underlying factors that contribute to the adoption of conspiracy theories can inform strategies to combat misinformation and support those affected.

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For Further Listening: Stay tuned for upcoming episodes of The Account from CNN as Donie O’Sullivan continues to explore the intricate landscape of human beliefs and the stories that shape them.

Transcript

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[Susan Ettlinger]

The PC gave us computing power at home, the Internet connected us, and mobile let us do it pretty much anywhere. Now, generative AI lets us communicate with technology in our own language, using our own senses. But figuring it all out when you're living through it is a totally different story. Welcome to Leading the Shift, a new podcast from Microsoft Azure. I'm your host, Susan Ettlinger. In each episode, leaders will share what they're learning to help you navigate all this change with confidence. Please join us, listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

2021 was a strange year for me. It started and it ended with crowds of people who had gathered together because of things they believed, things that were not true. On January 6th, I was in Washington, where I watched people who believed the election was stolen storm the U.S. capitol.

[Susan Ettlinger]

We will never let our country go to the globalists.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

George saw us.

[Michael Pratzman]

You can go to hell.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

And then at the end of the year, I reported on a much smaller group of people who believed something even more out there. Hundreds of QAnon followers from across the country gathered in Dallas to witness John F. Kennedy and John F. Kennedy, Jr. Reappear and announce that Donald Trump would be reinstated as president. CNN's Donie O'Sullivan joins us now. And I know there's a tendency to laugh at this, but it's terrifying. Yeah, John, I mean, look, if we didn't laugh at this thing, I guess we would cry. But it is important to remember the sort of wider context, right, that this is all playing out in is that there's this space online where there is no truth. People are not tethered to reality anymore. And while we have seen. I've been covering the world of misinformation in one way or another for more than a decade now. And I've been doing it on TV, on CNN since about 2018. And it's not going to surprise a lot of you that people who are on the fringes of political beliefs in the United States on The right and on the left, whether they be anti Vax or QAnon believers, they normally don't want to talk to somebody carrying a CNN microphone, the Communist News Network. Are you a CNN fan?

[Michael Pratzman]

No, I don't watch.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

You've never seen me before.

[Michael Pratzman]

I watch Prophets of God.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

They don't want to talk to anyone from what they call the mainstream media. After a while, though, I started to realize that they would talk to me.

[Colleen Pratzman]

I like you, but I don't think.

[Family Member]

CNN is very honest.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

So he's probably more honest than the people on there.

[Colleen Pratzman]

That's why I said, I mean, he's nice.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

I mean, what is it about now? I'd like to say their willingness to talk to me was down to my charm and expertise and skills, but I think it's really just down to the fact that I have an Irish accent. I'm from Ireland. So you're from Ireland.

[Dr. Samuel Vesier]

We are.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

We're. I'm Irish.

[Family Member]

We're originally from Notre Dame University area, which is Irish.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

I certainly don't fit the mold of the standard, polished American television correspondence. I'm not what people expect because I thought people from CNN wore shirts and ties. Oh. And when they talk to me sometimes they tell me some pretty crazy things. How did you feel when you saw the assassination attempt? You initially thought it was staged? Yep. Yes. As we all did. Do you still believe that? Yes.

[Dr. Samuel Vesier]

We don't know.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

I'm not sure.

[Susan Ettlinger]

It's not impossible?

[Donie O'Sullivan]

No.

[Michael Pratzman]

Not getting that vaccine? No, no, no, no, no. They're saying that these people that got the vaccine could die within two years.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

Trump got the vaccine, though.

[Michael Pratzman]

Yeah. They keep saying that. I don't know that. There's baby doctors telling pregnant women to get it. Do you know that will kill that fetus? It will kill the fetus if they get it.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

I can't tell you the amount of times in the past few years people have asked me, how do you talk to these people? Why do you talk to these people? And by these people, they mean people who believe crazy things. And for me, there's a few reasons. First, I think we're all capable of believing crazy things. And I'm not really that interested in what these people believe. I'm a lot more interested in why they believe it. Second, I think it's really important that we try to listen and try to understand this stuff is having real effects on families. And. And for every person that is deep down a rabbit hole of conspiracy theories, there's usually at least one person who is desperate to try and pull them back out. And then there's the answer I don't normally give, but it's true. I see a part of myself in a lot of these people. I often think it could very easily be me on the other side of the microphone. And I think in some ways, there's a part of me that thinks I still could be one day. Or it very easily could be one of my friends or someone in my family who I love. It could be you. Why do we believe crazy shit? And if somebody you love does, what can you do about it? What can any of us do about us? I'm Dhoni O'Sullivan, and this is persuadable. I want to go back to the end of 2021, back to that group in Dallas that was camped out around Daly Plaza waiting for Kennedy to show up. Word on the street is that Junior JFK Jr. Will show up and introduce.

[Family Member]

His parents 12 the same time of day that JFK Sr. Was shot here in the spot.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

Probably the majority of us know that JFK Jr is alive, because in a lot of ways, it's that group, it's that gathering that made me make this podcast. I knew I wanted to do a story on these people, on this fringe arm of a fringe group. I mean, even a lot of QAnon believers thought these people were crazy. And there was somebody at the heart of us in the middle of it all, a kind of cult leader, somebody I ended up spending more than a year following and trying to understand.

[Colleen Pratzman]

Michael.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

His name was Michael Pratzman. Negative 48. Do I refer to you as Fine? He went by the online Persona negative 48. What does that mean? 48's evil.

[Advertiser]

Evil.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

E is 5, V is 22 is 9. LS12. 48. A name born from his obsession with Gematria. It's a practice of assigning a number to letters of the Alphabet. It's pretty simple. A equals 1 and Z equals 26. This is Michael talking to a reporter on that day in Dallas. How much of this gathering here today are you responsible for? Or are you just a person? 98% of was Michael Pratzman, who had convinced all these people to show up in Dallas that day. They were his followers. They listened to him talk for hours on an online app called Telegram, where he spun up wild theories about how Trump was actually a Kennedy, and JFK Jr and JFK were coming back to help Trump defeat the deep state. The family tree goes like this. Jon John and Trump are cousins. Trump's uncle is JFK Senior Trump's father. Is General George Patton and his brother is Mussolini. Il Duce.

[Advertiser]

That's why he's.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

This was the end of 2021. Trump had lost the White House and the mysterious Q Persona who was behind QAnon had stopped posting messages online. People were looking for a leader, for somebody to guide them. And Michael, with his sermons on telegram, seemed to be sort of stepping into that space. He had tens of thousands of followers, and some people were so moved by his words that they left their families and followed him to Dallas that November. It is almost 12:29. Kennedy did not show up. Any minute now, there were some bemused news headlines and it was all perfect fodder for late night comics.

[Colleen Pratzman]

Shockingly, JFK Jr did not show up.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

In Dallas yesterday afternoon due to his chronic case of not alive. This is like Linus waiting for the great Pumpkin, but without the charm. It's crazy. Hundreds, maybe people quickly forgot about it. And most of the people who followed Michael to Dallas that day went home, but some stayed. And that made me wonder, who are these people and where are their families and where are their loved ones and what do they think of all of this? To me, Michael Pratzman seemed like a very successful, very pandemic era con artist. And a few years ago, we decided to make a whole CNN television documentary about him. So what is the significance of 115? You'll find out 174. What is what's mine number? Just the plan once anymore. Are you a con man?

[Family Member]

No.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

Are you. Are you taking. But the problem was nobody really knew who this guy was. So we went to Seattle. That's where Michael's family was. And I was able to track down his mom, Colleen. And she eventually agreed to talk to us because she wanted to get her son home. She wanted to pull him out of this world that he was living in. We shot the interview with Colleen with her face in shadow. She was worried that in some way by showing her face on television that that might upset Michael.

[Family Member]

It's very hard to see him portrayed the way he is being portrayed right now compared to, you know, the person that we knew for the first 50 years of his life.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

And what Colleen told us about Michael changed everything. There was more to him than the manipulative cult leader we might have thought he was.

[Family Member]

He just always wanted to help people. It was nothing for him to pull out a $20 bill and give to somebody that he saw was struggling. And this was somebody that didn't have money to waste. But that's the kind of person he.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

Was and over time you saw him change. Yeah, Colleen said that 2008, 2009, around the time of the financial crash, was a very tough time for Michael. He started looking into investing in precious metals, gold, silver, and started doing research online. People need to get into silver and gold now.

[Advertiser]

It is an absolute no brainer of.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

All the gold and Chernobyl are all you can rely on. Folks, please, I beg of you, listen to what Alex Jones is saying. You must take action immediately or your children and your grandchildren will forever be slaves to the elite. And whatever Michael saw on there, it sucked him in. He came to believe that the government were manipulating the currency, that the world market was going to crash, that the dollar was going to fail, that there was this cabal of some sort running everything. And he couldn't stop talking about us.

[Family Member]

He just was so adamant about the fact that his family was going to be left without. If we didn't all understand that this was going to happen, it evolved into Alex Jones and Infowars and Sandy Hook and, you know, the conspiracy of 9 11. And he became more isolated and the more isolated he became, the more he needed his family to agree with him, to believe everything that he believed and we didn't. He came to feel betrayed by us, you know, the people that he loved. If we didn't support him, what did he have?

[Donie O'Sullivan]

He had less and less. He pulled away from family, lost friends, lost his marriage, lost his construction business. In a lot of ways, Michael Protzman was primed for QAnon. And when those first Q drops came in 2017, he found like minded people on QANON forms. People who believed what he believed, people who understood it all in a way that his family could not. He developed theories of his own and started spending hours every day talking about them. On Telegram.

[Family Member]

I remember him telling his friends, like I'm on Telegram and all of a sudden I have these followers, you know, because he was putting his thoughts out there, you know, how he felt and whatnot. And he says all of a sudden he had all these followers.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

That's when Michael became negative 48. And that's when Colleen says his family lost him. When I met Colleen, it had been years since she had talked to her son.

[Family Member]

I think that this has given him a worth that he felt that he had lost when he lost his family. He just so believes this. I don't know, you know, whether he will ever come out of that. Maybe he thinks he doesn't have anything to come back to, which he's wrong. I just, you know, you always hope, and I'm sure these other families hope, that they'll get their loved one back. And I know that we'll never give up. You know, that's. That's why we try and stay connected and let him know that we're here. But I don't know.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

Colleen never got to speak to her son again in the short time between our interview with her and when the documentary was supposed to air. Michael was in an accident on a motocross course. He died not long after we pushed the air date of our documentary, and I eventually flew back to Seattle to talk to Colleen again. This time, she was okay with us showing her face. There wasn't any reason to worry about upsetting Michael. He wasn't coming back.

[Family Member]

Who knows why somebody falls for some of this? Who knows what it is that they're looking for? Who knows why somebody believed that Sandy Hook didn't happen just because Alex Jones says it doesn't. You know, who knows why people believe that stuff? But people do. And that has just caused so much pain, and it's caused me to lose my son, and it's caused those other people to lose their family members, and that makes me really angry, but there's nothing I can do about it.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

Colleen, in her grief, made it clear that Michael might have looked like a villain. But she said that he really believed this stuff. And in some ways, he was a victim as well. Like so many people I've met who are down rabbit holes, Michael suffered trauma. And look, most of us have messed up things that happen in our lives, but we don't start believing that JFK is still alive. But this got me thinking about how we process trauma. A lot of people like Michael seem to externalize us. They find the why for their pain in the world around them. It's a cabal, or it's Democrats, or it's migrants or whatever. I found myself in rabbit holes of my own. And while I can't really empathize with Michael's beliefs, I can empathize with his pain. But instead of externalizing it, I tend to turn it inward. I internalize it. I have depression and anxiety, and I have something called pure ocd. And sometimes when a change happens, sometimes it's big, sometimes it's small. Something like a friend or a loved one getting sick. Something that just provokes uncertainty, whatever it is. And when there's no seemingly rational reason for why something might have happened, that's when my irrationality kicks in. And my mind will want to blame me. And I know it's getting bad, when the thoughts just won't go away. They just keep on coming and coming. And the reason I'm telling you all of this is because when I'm in a hole of depression and anxiety and having these thoughts, there's just no talking myself out of it. There's no amount of rational information that I can present to myself to tell me that I'm a good person or that I'm not to blame for whatever is going on. And I think it's the same with a lot of these conspiracy theories. And the people who believe them. Telling someone they're wrong usually just makes them dig deeper, regardless of the evidence you have to show them. There's just no amount of pictures or videos that you can bring to a person who believes that JFK is alive to convince them that he's actually dead. You have to just stop talking about jfk and you have to figure out what else is going on in that person's mind, because it's not about jfk. And a lot of you out there are in the same situation with loved ones. You are rational me right now arguing with irrational, depressed, anxious me, and you have no idea what to do. So if rationality and facts and evidence don't work, what does? How do we really figure out what's going on under our beliefs?

[Susan Ettlinger]

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[Colleen Pratzman]

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[Dr. Samuel Vesier]

Human beings are not really convinced by facts. They're convinced by emotions. They're convinced by values. They're convinced by trust.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

Dr. Samuel Vesier, he says I can call him Sam is a cognitive scientist at McGill University in Montreal. He's also a therapist who works on a team that does crisis intervention with people who hold extreme beliefs. Sam deals with some Pretty dark stuff. He counsels school shooters, incels white supremacists. There were a lot of things I wanted to talk to Sam about, but we started with what makes people fall down rabbit holes of conspiracy theory belief in the first place.

[Dr. Samuel Vesier]

There's really no single one profile, contrary to portrayal in at least some part of the media. Where we would like to think of them as just toothless, neck bearded people with intellectual deficiencies is that most of these people, I would say, are of above average intelligence. They're very curious. They want to solve life's fundamental challenges. They're looking for answers, meaning purpose, belonging, community, sacrifice. And most, if not all of them, I would say, have altruistic motives. They want to protect their loved ones from some perceived threat.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

Sam is also an anthropologist. He studies how our origins as a species impact how we think, how we learn, and what we decide to believe.

[Dr. Samuel Vesier]

Human intelligence is collective intelligence. We learn everything from others, everything from how to walk to how to talk, how to feed ourselves. So in order to learn anything, we need to find a community of people we feel safe with. But we seem to have great difficulty feeling altruism and connection with very large groups. And it may be because for the longest part of human evolutionary history, we lived in small bands. So there's been tons of studies looking at even, you know, the amount of actual people that an average human mind can entertain meaningful connections with. It's about 200. After that, you know, it becomes a little bit abstract. In moments of increased uncertainty, like, you know, natural disasters, wars, pandemics, polarization, happens more than we tend to other people more. And during the pandemic, larger and larger chunks of society lost trust in institutions because they were confused and they started believing increasingly, well, you know, some could say crazy stuff.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

You mentioned that there isn't one specific profile of a person that, you know, makes more likely to fall for a conspiracy theory. But can you talk us a little bit through, like, what have you seen? What are some of the traits your life experiences or station in society that pushes people to this?

[Dr. Samuel Vesier]

Yeah. So first, let me talk about the uneasy link between psychiatry and conspiracy theories, because what I do not want to convey is that extremism and conspiracy theories are just a form of mental illness. So in terms of psychopathology, in terms of mental disorders, for example, there's absolutely no one mental disorder that will make people believe in conspiracy theories. Most schizophrenics are not conspiracy theorists, for example. I think there is, however, a very high prevalence of distress, of mental distress. This does not mean That a mental illness causes the belief. It means that often these are people who, for complicated reasons, have had difficult lives, have experienced significant loss, have gone through trauma, and they're looking for, again, answers, you know, meaning, purpose. And. And a community adopting, quote, unquote, conspiracy beliefs. There's a sense of agency. So the idea that you can act on the world, you know, you know something that others don't know, it's often a, you know, a kind of. It confers a sense, rightly or not, of. Of actually being able to do something about an otherwise unbearable situation.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

Like, it's almost as if, as humans, we feel more comfort in believing there is some force, even it be an evil one, than for something to just be random and totally out of control.

[Dr. Samuel Vesier]

Absolutely. One hallmark of all conspiracy theories is that they're simple, they're catchy. You can explain the gist of it in a sentence or two, and then you can elaborate, but it's very simple. And all of a sudden, you understand the world. You have meaning, you know what to do, you know whom to avoid, you know who the enemies are. You have purpose, you have community. It's really great. Whereas on the other hand, as you point out, the actual truth, whatever it is, was infinitely more terrifying.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

Like, just when it comes to certainty, like, is there an evolutionary path or story there or reason that we just. We like that.

[Dr. Samuel Vesier]

Yeah. I mean, we need to be a little bit paranoid at baseline. We need to be able to identify threats, and it's better to have false positives, meaning when we think something is a threat and it's not. So we have minds that work like an overactive smoke detector. And in moments of increased threats, in moments when everything that people take for granted as true and good in the world kind of collapses. So a war, a pandemic, you know, any massive change to the world, then we become more paranoid. Then we become more obsessed with identifying with certainty what the threat is. And this is what we saw with the pandemic.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

This makes a lot of sense to me. 2020, and its panic, its isolation, its uncertainty, it was all only five years ago. I don't think any of us were the best versions of ourselves during those years. And I don't think any of us came out of COVID unscathed. I know I didn't. In 2021, I had a bit of a mental breakdown and kind of fell into a pit of depression and anxiety. And what I now know is kind of pure ocd, like intrusive thoughts about myself, not about the world around me. But really, you know, reasons I should hate myself and really just messed up stuff, really irrational stuff, you know, it was kind of true that. That I really started to realize, like, you do not have to be crazy to believe crazy shit.

[Dr. Samuel Vesier]

Mm.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

Right.

[Dr. Samuel Vesier]

Absolutely.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

When I'm in that space, as this is why I am bad. This is why I'm not deserving of anything.

[Dr. Samuel Vesier]

Mm.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

And there's no amount of reasoning or rationalization I can do to make me stop believing the thing I believe. And I know because I've tried to rationalize it myself for hundreds and thousands of hours on some of this stuff. And what I've learned over time is, is if I really want to get out of that belief system, it has nothing at all to do with the beliefs. It's all the stuff that's happening around me. And I think that's kind of what you're also saying about getting a person out of a conspiracy theory rabbit hole. It's not the conspiracy theories you need to be talking about.

[Dr. Samuel Vesier]

Absolutely. Thank you for compellingly sharing this. And I also suspect that without knowing anything about your life history, that if you were able to restore or harmonize social and family connections, find yourself in a place where you're validated, where you're recognized, where you're love, I imagine that that helped you get better. As an anthropologist, I actually have great, great faith in humanity's capacity for empathy.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

I know what some of you are thinking listening to this. How. How do you get past the substance of the beliefs when the beliefs sound completely crazy, like dangerously crazy? How do you have empathy for somebody who's sitting across the kitchen table from you, insisting that Hillary Clinton is responsible for the ritualistic murder of children or that Donald Trump staged his own assassination attempt? And if you don't correct them on that and call that out as crazy, are you not just letting them off the hook? I know it's hard because I have been there myself, trying to get past rationalizing myself, to figure out really what's going on underneath and to find out the real source of my pain. And, look, there are no easy answers here, but the stakes are really high. It's too late for Colleen Protzman, someone who was grieving her son before he was gone because she felt like she'd lost him a long time ago. But despite all of this, there is some reason for hope. So please stay with us. What I learned is how important it.

[Susan Ettlinger]

Is for there to be a safe landing zone back in the old community.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

Because absent that, it's too damn hard.

[Dr. Samuel Vesier]

To come back into a community that thinks you're batshit crazy.

[Susan Ettlinger]

There are so many times I broke.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

Down in tears of gratitude that he.

[Susan Ettlinger]

Stayed by my side.

[Family Member]

I don't know where I'd be today.

[Donie O'Sullivan]

If he hadn't made that choice. I'm Dhoni O'Sullivan and this is persuadable. Our producers are Graylin Brashear and Emily Williams. Hayley Thomas is our senior producer. Dan Dezulla is our technical director. And Steve Lichti is executive producer of CNN Audio. With support from Sean Clark, Ken Shiffman, Susan Chun, Jim Murphy, Logan Whiteside, Robert Mathers, Dan Bloom, Grace Walker, Jesse Remedios, Keira Dearing, Alex Manassari and Jamis Andrest. A special thank you to Patricia DeCarlo and Wendy Brundage. Thank you for listening. We'll be back with another episode next week.

[Susan Ettlinger]

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