B (6:37)

What a beautiful show. Thank you for having me.

A (6:41)

I know I've been, like, talking about this iPad thing. I don't know if.

B (6:45)

Did it turn off on you?

A (6:47)

I don't know if this is gonna be the new style of the show.

B (6:49)

Is this your subtle way of beginning the conversation?

A (6:53)

No, it's me talking about myself, which is a great way to interview, but.

B (6:57)

Do you always use your middle finger to touch the pad?

A (7:00)

You picked up on that? No, I was flipping you off. Yeah. Welcome to the show.

B (7:05)

Thanks for having me.

A (7:06)

You were. You were strongly advised against doing the show.

B (7:09)

I was so strongly advised against. No, just a friend of mine who was like, I'm afraid that he's gonna laugh at you, not with you.

A (7:16)

Why would I laugh at you?

B (7:17)

I don't know.

A (7:18)

I'm nice.

B (7:18)

You have apparently a reputation, so.

A (7:20)

Whitney Cummings said, don't do the show.

B (7:22)

No, it was not. It was not. Whitney.

A (7:25)

Whitney Cummings, you were officially an enemy of the show. No, it was not.

B (7:29)

Don't Rugley kiss.

A (7:31)

Whitney Cummings, DJ academics, you're at number one. Whitney Cummings, you're a close second.

B (7:35)

Oh, my God.

A (7:36)

Donald Trump, you've moved down to three.

B (7:39)

Yes, it was Donald.

A (7:40)

Donald Trump said, don't do the show. Do you have his number?

B (7:43)

No, I do not.

A (7:44)

Monica Winsky said, don't do the show.

B (7:46)

No, but I do have her number.

A (7:48)

I watched your podcast. You did with Monica. She's.

B (7:51)

Yeah. What'd you think?

A (7:52)

I just love Monica.

B (7:53)

She's so funny.

A (7:54)

I love you. I don't. Look, sorry, your husband's name. I don't love. You know, I like both of you. You guys have a. Have a good dynamic.

B (8:01)

Yeah, she's so sweet and she's so smart and she works her ass off and she's been through hell. What's not to love?

A (8:07)

You guys have, like, a commonality there because you guys have been like, your stories have been. You've been. You Know, blasted out in the public eye and kind of, you know.

B (8:14)

Yeah. And, like, fought tooth and nail to, like, have a say over who we are in the public imagination. And she really was the one who forged the path forward. I mean, I'm following in her footsteps, obviously.

A (8:26)

Your story became incredibly, you know, global news.

B (8:30)

Where were you when it was going on, by the way?

A (8:32)

I was. I had an alibi. Yeah.

B (8:35)

Yeah.

A (8:35)

Good, good.

B (8:36)

I did, too, but it didn't do anything.

A (8:37)

I have an alibi for where I was, I think. Do you think that. I know we're jumping around a million directions, but do you think that the phenomenon of true crime, which your story's kind of been retconned into. Cause I think it post, like.

B (8:48)

Well, it is a true crime in the sense that a true crime occurred. My roommate was raped and murdered and all of that.

A (8:55)

Yeah.

B (8:55)

But.

A (8:56)

Yeah, what I mean is, like, as kind of a cottage industry in society, like, post serial, it's become like, it's exploded. Right.

B (9:03)

Yeah. Well, and I think even. I mean, serial was possible because of documentaries like Making a Murderer and Thin Blue Line and Thin Blue Line and even the documentary that Netflix did on my case.

A (9:16)

Yeah. So sometimes my girlfriend. Am I correct in thinking, like, it's a majority female audience?

B (9:26)

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Typically, it's a majority female audience. And that's interesting. Like, why is it that guys like watching things explode and girls like, watching tackles, you know, crimes? I don't know. Like, maybe it's more. Maybe true crime is dealing more with the process of the aftermath of the destruction, whereas, like, men are more interested in the destruction itself.

A (9:49)

Sometimes I think that it's like, sometimes they want to see a lady whose life is worse than theirs.

B (9:54)

Maybe.

A (9:56)

Sometimes I'm in the morning, my girlfriend's reading Apple News, and her algorithm is just. I call it Girlfriend News. I'll wake up and she'll be like, a baby. Killed. Committed suicide. And I'm like, why is this in the news? And I was like, I don't want to know that it is true.

B (10:13)

Okay, so now we're getting into why is the media. What it is. Because we know that the strongest feeling that drives engagement is outrage. So when you see something like a baby commit suicide, you automatically, just automatically.

A (10:29)

It's sad.

B (10:30)

It's too sad. And my phone does this to me, too. Like, I can't figure out. I'm an old lady with this stuff, too. Yeah. And I don't want it. I don't want this information out there. Like, I don't need That I need Kitty videos. That's what I need. And thankfully it also serves me up that. But like the outrage machine that drives engagement, which is what our entire media industry is built upon, is built upon that. But I don't think. I think it's not quite fair to say that. It's just that your girlfriend wants to see someone whose life is worse than that.

A (11:00)

I'm joking.

B (11:01)

Yeah. I think it's more coming from each other, though. Yeah. Right.

A (11:06)

No, I think it's probably that women's lives are like, under threat probably more than men's lives are. Right.

B (11:11)

We do feel the precariousness of our lives more.

A (11:14)

I think women are violence, you know, under threat of violence more than men are. So I think that probably it kind of plays into that.

B (11:23)

Is that true? I mean, men are under threat of violence as well. They're just under threat of violence from each other.

A (11:28)

I appreciate. I appreciate that. Yeah.

B (11:30)

Well, it's true.

A (11:31)

Especially when you're a white straight guy like me.

B (11:34)

Yeah. The most everyone just wants to punch your face.

A (11:38)

We've touched on a lot of things that I want to expand upon later on. But for those individuals, we have a lot of, like 4 year olds that watch this show. So they might not be familiar with the year 2007.

B (11:49)

Right, right.

A (11:50)

For me, I was in university. It was a glory. I was, you know, Animal Collective.

B (11:55)

Are we the same age? How old are we?

A (11:56)

I'm 87. We are the same age.

B (11:59)

Okay.

A (11:59)

Amazing. Class of 2005.

B (12:01)

Yeah.

A (12:01)

Yeah.

B (12:02)

I'm July. When are you?

A (12:03)

April.

B (12:04)

April. You can tell? You can tell.

A (12:07)

Do you respect me as an older guy?

B (12:10)

We'll see at the end of this conversation.

A (12:12)

Are you jealous? Yeah. No. So, yeah, we are the same age. 2007. We all remember Animal Collective. Merry Merryweather Post Pavilion. We got. We got, you know.

B (12:23)

Sure. The manic Pixie dream girl thing was big in those days.

A (12:27)

Club article. Yeah, I remember that. You grew up in Seattle. You went to uw. Right. I actually, like, have a know a lot of people that grew up, like, in that environment, like Pacific Northwest. It's like a very specific, like, like Patagonia Vest kind of situation.

B (12:45)

Yes, it is that kind of situation. We all go outside a lot, even though the weather isn't always accommodating. Pretty progressive. Yeah. I was the kind of kid who could just like, do my own thing and be a creative weirdo and it wasn't a big deal.

A (13:04)

So clearly your case. You know, you went to college and then you became an international spectacle.

B (13:11)

Yeah.

A (13:12)

From you know, from just under the most traumatic, worst circumstances.

B (13:17)

Yeah. How aware?

A (13:19)

I guess prior to your arrest, you must have understood that it became tabloid news. You know, I think in three countries. Right. Primarily, like Italy, the United Kingdom, and the United States.

B (13:33)

Yeah. So. Yes. So really early on, it was already clear that there was a lot of media buzz around the case. However, like, I wasn't aware of what media they were. I was in and out of the police station. So I. It's not like I was, like, sitting at home, which. My home was now a crime scene, so I didn't have a home. I was hanging out with my boyfriend of a week, who was now, like, taking me under his wing and letting me stay at his place while I had nowhere else to go.

A (14:02)

That really moves the relationship forward, I guess. Ye being accused of crime.

B (14:07)

Yeah, well, we hadn't been accused yet. Right. Yeah. Right. So, like, in the first few days, we just were responding to this crazy, horrific thing that seemed to come out of completely nowhere. Like, it was. We were having this beautiful study abroad experience, our whole lives ahead of us. Everything was going great until suddenly I come home and there's a crime scene, and I call the cops because I don't know what to do, and they come and the whole thing explodes. And it's happening so quickly. Like, I was arrested within five days, and in those five days, I was being questioned for over 10 hours a day. So, like, I didn't really. There was no way for me to keep pace with how fast everything was developing, in spite of the fact that we didn't actually have. There wasn't a lot known about what happened to my roommate at the time. Like, very little was known. It was just all a lot of pressure descending upon this small town. And on these, you know, local law enforcement who were charged with discovering who had committed this really heinous and seemingly inexplicable crime.

A (15:13)

And to contextualize. I'm a bad interviewer.

B (15:15)

Yes.

A (15:16)

You're on study abroad.

B (15:17)

Yes.

A (15:17)

And your roommate was murdered, and then you were questioned for five days and then later incarcerated and.

B (15:25)

Yeah. Okay. So I'm terrible at my job. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

A (15:30)

So why don't you share your story? Sure.

B (15:33)

Yeah, we'll edit it in. No, no. So for those who are not familiar, When I was 20 years old, back in 2007, I went to go study abroad. I lived in a house with three other young women, one of whom one day was discovered raped and murdered in her bedroom. And this was very shortly. I was only in Perugia for Like, five weeks. So I was, like, just getting my bearings, and I still was not fluent in the language. And I'm, you know, the youngest person in the house, and I'm the one who comes home and stumbles across this crime scene. I call the police, and the police come and they start investigating this case, but from veryfrom the very early stages. And this is known now because, like, the prosecutor has written his own book about it and everything. When they came and discovered the crime scene, they immediately thought that what was apparently visible, that there was a break in, that whoever broke in, raped and stabbed to death my roommate. That that was actually staged. It was faked. It was. There was actually something more conspiratorial going on. And so they believed that someone who had access to the house, who lived in the house, was involved. And that suspicion fell very quickly onto me. And so they pursued a case against me. Even when, you know, the DNA evidence and all the evidence in the case came back showing that it was this known burglar, known for being aggressive towards women, who had a history of breaking and entering. All of his DNA was at the crime scene. They had all. Yeah, footprints, bloody handprints, his DNA in my roommate's body. Like, all of that definitively proving his, you know, his guilt in this case. But by the time that they identified that evidence, they had already arrested me. And so instead of admitting that they were wrong, they pursued a case where they suggested that I had orchestrated a murder orgy. And that story just blew up over the world.

A (17:41)

I mean, it's like, perfect fodder for tabloid news. What's interesting also is that 2007 was kind of an inflection point, I think, of media. Like, so you were kind of at the tail end of, like, tabloid establishment like the sun and the Daily Mail. And it's subsequently changed. It's kind of like. You got Facebook, what, the year before that, Right?

B (18:05)

Yeah, so that came out that year.

A (18:08)

I started texting freshman year.

B (18:09)

There you go. Like, yeah, we did not have smartphones back in those days. I was on a Nokia flip phone, remember? Or like, even just, you know, in Perugia, I didn't have Internet. I had to go to an Internet cafe. Like, oh, you know, talk about aging myself. Like, Internet cafes were a thing.

A (18:28)

Back in our day. Yeah, yeah.

B (18:29)

Back in our day, you had to go to a cafe to email your mom. And so, yeah, so it was a different time. And you're right. Like, it was the beginning. It was when I think traditional establishment media was experiencing, was really realizing that there was a crisis, there was an economic crisis. Their economic model was not going to survive the Internet. And so they were desperate to try to retain readers and to do so with less of a budget, so cheaply, quickly, efficiently, to try to out compete the Internet. And as a result, they just made shit up and perpetuated misinformation because they were in their death throes. And.

A (19:17)

And also, it was three different countries. Correct. So, like, the narrative, you know, in the uk, like their tabloid rags was like the foxy Noxy, like they love rhymes over there in their.

B (19:28)

I've learned this since then. Yes.

A (19:30)

Foxy noxy is just. That's breakfast, lunch and dinner for those guys. They're like, this is perfect. Print it.

B (19:35)

Yeah, yeah.

A (19:36)

And then in the United States, it was like this, like American girls, you know, scared abroad, you know.

B (19:43)

Right. Some of it was. Although, like, it was also just the.

A (19:46)

Salac sex angle too.

B (19:47)

Yes. There was this, like, weird angle here in the US specifically with like the Daily Beast, I recall, was really terrible. But, like, there was a writer who wrote for the Daily Beast who just wrote these just non stop articles about student killer Amanda Knox. Student killer Amanda Knox. Yeah. Yeah. It was women. Yeah. Women writers hating on you.

A (20:10)

Yeah, she was my. My point. Prove it.

B (20:14)

Oh, no.

A (20:15)

They want to see other women destroyed.

B (20:16)

Well, and. But that also was this, like, narrative that the prosecution was putting forth that, like, all women hate other women. Hence, of course, Amanda.

A (20:24)

So I would be with the prosecution.

B (20:26)

Yeah, yeah.

A (20:28)

And then also in Italy, there was like this kind of. It's a Catholic country, it was a religious prosecutor. And then you were kind of labeled.

B (20:37)

Yeah, there was definitely a Madonna. Yeah, Madonna whore dichotomy that was going on where both my roommate and I were completely misrepresented. So in Italy itself, they had stereotypes about what are American girls like, what are British girls like? And they thought, well, British girls are uptight and judgmental and American girls are loose and floody and, well, whatever. You know, they're human beings and they have all these different facets. But the way that it got presented in court was, Meredith is this, like, uptight, judgmental person. Amanda is this slutty sort of in your face person. Obviously, this. Their confrontation would result in a sex murder. And for me at the time, like, what was so frustrating about it was this was obviously a fantasy that was built on stereotypes and misogynistic pornographic fantasy, but so many people bought into it. And I'm actually curious, like back in the day, do you remember, did you.

A (21:44)

Ever follow oh, beautiful. I mean, no. I mean, that was like an aspect. Well, I was gonna say my father was like. That was another news story where he was like, she's beautiful, Adam, and she's across the world, and she's scared. And I was like, oh, my dad's in love with this. My dad. Was he. Should we hit him up?

B (22:02)

Yeah, no.

A (22:02)

He gets so embarrassed.

B (22:03)

Really?

A (22:04)

Yeah. I'm like, dad, I'm with your crush right now from back in.

B (22:06)

Well, you know what? We should send him a selfie.

A (22:08)

No. Come on. Let's not embarrass. I'm sorry to embarrass you.

B (22:12)

Dude, she thinks you're cute.

A (22:14)

I know. Listen, I don't want to lead you astray. Your husband's here, too. You have nothing to worry about with this guy. It must be. It's actually so funny that that was how the British and American girls were labeled, because I don't know if you've been on vacation, but you sound like.

B (22:28)

You'Re afraid that you're about to be.

A (22:29)

Murdered the night of the. No, I'm not. By the British. These people are. Come on. There's. They're pathetic people, okay? They've never. I'm. I'm sorry. I'm causing an international event right now.

B (22:43)

Yeah, you are.

A (22:45)

The night of the crime, you were with your boyfriend five days. First of all, just. Did it accelerate the relationship? Did you guys drop I love you faster?

B (22:54)

Well, no, I think it's more the opposite. Like, in fact, something that, like, that is an undercurrent of the show that we've developed. Here is this story of love lost. Right. Like, here, both Raffaelle and I were both at the very beginning stages of this, like, young love.

A (23:11)

You look good.

B (23:12)

Handsome, but, like, sweet. Like, he was. He was shy. Like, he was very unlike a lot of the Italian guys that I met. He was shy, he was sweet. He.

A (23:21)

Princessa.

B (23:22)

Well, yeah, he was very caballaresco. He was very chivalrous. Yeah, chivalrous. Yeah.

A (23:32)

He sucks, this guy. Dude, you don't have nothing to worry about in front of your husband. No, that guy looks so. I mean, but anyway.

B (23:40)

Yeah, so. But then we're, like, put into this horrible nightmare of a situation where he's only known me for a week, and suddenly, because he's my alibi, he's being accused of involvement in this horrible crime, and he then spends four years in prison and eight years on trial and is convicted at a certain point and reconvicted at a certain point.

A (24:01)

Did you guys try an ldr.

B (24:03)

Ldr.

A (24:04)

Long distance relationship.

B (24:06)

No, I feel like I was more focused on proving my innocence.

A (24:11)

I'm being a fucking. Maybe I am being mean.

B (24:15)

No, no.

A (24:16)

Your advice against doing the show is correct.

B (24:18)

No, no, no. But I hear your point. Like, oh, okay, you're in that.

A (24:21)

It could be romantic. It could be, like, the world.

B (24:25)

Well, you know what? And this is something I talk about in my book is, like, the world was vilifying me for my sexuality, and the very fact that I was, like, a desirable object became, like, a point of, like, deep shame and fear for me. Because not only was I being, you know, vilified in the press, like, I was getting sexually. Well, I was sexually harassed in prison by prison guards. I was, you know, being accused of being this, like, sex monster in court. And so just, like, being. Just like, the fact that I'm attractive to other people became a object, like a reason for me to, like, hate myself and to feel like I was just being destroyed because of other people's, like, sexual fixations on me. And so the idea of being anyone's object of interest became suddenly very toxic to me.

A (25:21)

Obviously, you're a private person and suddenly you're not a private person.

B (25:24)

Yeah.

A (25:25)

And that's, like, adjusting to that is a very difficult thing, I would imagine.

B (25:31)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to have every intimate detail of my life brutally scrutinized was a huge thing when I was 20 years old. Yeah.

A (25:42)

The night of the crime, you were with your boyfriend and you watched the film Amelie.

B (25:48)

Amelie, yeah.

A (25:49)

Yeah. Was it. So was that the last movie you watched for, like, four years?

B (25:53)

I mean, there were some movies that we were able to watch in prison, but yeah, that was. That was the movie I was watching when. No, I love that movie.

A (26:01)

No, if it was you. She's kind of annoying that. It's just in French. Don't you think she's acting annoying a little bit?

B (26:08)

I mean, it depends on what you think is annoying.

A (26:11)

My thought was, like, I would if that was the last movie you watched for four years. I'd be like, I wish it was a better movie.

B (26:17)

No, I love that movie.

A (26:18)

She acts like Amelia Bedelia a little bit. You think?

B (26:21)

Sure. Yeah. But there's something charming about Amelia Bedelia. Yeah.

A (26:25)

What do you mean? She's making a mess. She's supposed to be the nanny. She's knocking into things.

B (26:31)

She has magical thinking. She's, you know, she's experiencing the world in that manic. Manic pixie, dream girl kind of way, which I can a little bit relate to.

A (26:39)

No way. She's not Natalie Portman in Garden State. That's a lady that's making my house into a mess. I would fire Amelia Mathew and notes. No, it's just, like.

B (26:50)

It's the same kind of vibe.

A (26:51)

My stupid mind. That was my thought.

B (26:53)

What movie would you watch before you went to prison for four years?

A (26:58)

Good question. I guess. Donnie Darko.

B (27:03)

Okay.

A (27:06)

It's a smart movie.

B (27:07)

Yeah, sure. Is that gonna give you the strength to get through?

A (27:11)

Yeah, it's like. It's pretty trippy and stuff. And then you think. I thought about it, you know, just.

B (27:15)

It would give you nightmares in the days. It would be distracting. I gave me nightmares.

A (27:20)

It's a movie. It's make believe. I'm not afraid of it. I've never been afraid of a movie.

B (27:23)

Oh, okay. I get. I get scared.

A (27:25)

Have you ever been, like, offered, like, a. Were you ever offered, like, a career in entertainment after you got out of prison? Like.

B (27:35)

Ish. Like, someone wanted me to star in a porn.

A (27:40)

And I imagine, like, you had court fees and stuff like that. And, like, how did your family paid for your defense? Right.

B (27:47)

Yes, they went into debt. Paying for my defense.

A (27:49)

Right now, I mean, you seem like you've processed it. You're speaking about a traumatic experience in public, but it has to also be something you've spoken about a million times. And it has to also be, like, as a human being, probably annoying, Right?

B (28:04)

So here's what's annoying. Here's what's annoying. And I've had annoying experiences with this where it feels like I've had conversations with people where it felt like they didn't actually care what I had to say. They just had their own preconceived idea of what my story was, and they wanted to be the one who got to ask me, did you murder your roommate? And they didn't really care what my answer was. They just wanted to be the person who got to ask me that. And so any kind of conversation that is just limited to what did you do that night? And just basically putting me on trial again, I find that to be tiresome and unoriginal and not very useful because I think the actual facts speak for themselves and I shouldn't have to defend myself in that way anymore. But when I have a conversation like, this is the first time I'm having this conversation with you, and I don't actually know you that well, so I'm kind of discovering. Defending yourself. I'm not judging you.

A (29:06)

Brandon's been friends with me how long?

B (29:09)

But it's curious to me, like, what you find curious about it and what you might know about it, because there are a million different ways that I've had to process this experience from all the different angles. And it seems like one thing that you're deeply interested in is this question of, like, I mean, you're a media maker, so it makes sense that you're very curious about, like, how media has evolved and what some would say.

A (29:30)

Mogul.

B (29:31)

Right. You're a media mogul. You're an icon. And so you want to know, like, how do you go about, you know, being a media icon and mogul, ethically and responsibly?

A (29:45)

I don't. Come on. I'm just trying my best, you know, I'm not. I don't know how I found myself in this position in life, but.

B (29:55)

Well, that's an interesting question. Why do any of. Why do you have the influence to, like, have somebody, like, to share information? Is that it?

A (30:04)

Stupid world. Yeah. Yeah.

B (30:05)

Well, okay, so, like, how did you.

A (30:07)

I put my pants on a podcast.

B (30:09)

Is that what happened?

A (30:11)

I was with two way more talented guys on a podcast.

B (30:13)

Okay.

A (30:14)

I was like a nebbish. So we, like, rebuilt the Dick Cavett show set. And, and now, you know, now the newspaper thinks that this is a real thing, but in reality, I'm a fraud. You know, I don't even know how to read.

B (30:29)

Okay, well. But that's interesting.

A (30:30)

I read Evolution. I read Harry Potter. All of them, though.

B (30:33)

All right, high five.

A (30:34)

Have you read those?

B (30:34)

Are you kidding me? I read them in prison, too. Yeah, no, that's how I learned how to speak Italian in prison.

A (30:40)

You read Harry Potter in Italian?

B (30:42)

Yeah, because I admire. Yeah. By any Grange. No, I, I, I wish.

A (30:48)

I wish Harry got hurt.

B (30:51)

I mean. No, they didn't have that dynamic. She's never had that dynamic.

A (30:56)

So good at school and.

B (30:58)

Yeah, sure. And. And he's weird and traumatized and, you know, like, needs that Ginny energy. She's a strong woman.

A (31:06)

I know. I mean, it's cool. I mean, it's. And it's kind of sick that he's, like, now he's real. Brothers with Ron.

B (31:11)

Yes.

A (31:12)

Thank you. But, like, honestly, we were at the age where Harry was our age.

B (31:18)

Yeah.

A (31:18)

The book came out.

B (31:19)

Yes.

A (31:19)

Sick was that. And then when he was like, when he was like, how he wanted to. He wanted to take down Cho Chang.

B (31:27)

I don't know why I said take down Cho Chang.

A (31:30)

You wanted to clap.

B (31:31)

This is what.

A (31:32)

I'm sorry I'm talking this way. I'm a Idiot. When Harry was trying to clap Cho Chang at a school. What a racist. Those books, in retrospect are so racist sometimes. Have you seen Cho Chang? Come on. Have you ever seen. Someone asked JK Rowling on Twitter, is there any Jewish wizards? And she goes, anthony Goldstein, Ravenclaw. Anthony Goldstein, Ravenclaw. Yeah, I mean, obviously we all know the goblins are the Jews, but it's kind of, as we found out in society is probably more accurate than. No, let's get back on track. But it was sick. He was our age.

B (32:14)

He was sick. It was our age. And I got.

A (32:16)

And Drake is our age too. Yeah. So.

B (32:18)

Well, no, I was gonna say I got to appreciate more of Harry Potter's story in prison because there's a certain point where he. The whole world turns against him and calls him a liar and throws him under the bus. And I was like, Harry and I have so much in common.

A (32:31)

And so Andy had to leave. He had to go away. Even though Hogwarts was the most special place in the world, it was the place he loved the most. But I guess Dumbledore believed him the whole time, you know?

B (32:43)

Oh, of course. Yeah. Dumbledore would not have gone down with the ship if he didn't think that Harry could like, take the reins.

A (32:49)

Yeah. And it turns out Snape was the good guy.

B (32:52)

I know. I'm so in love with that turn of events. Snape forever.

A (32:57)

Snape forever. Do you ever think that Snape sounds like he just had milk? Like he had milk?

B (33:08)

I wasn't judging.

A (33:09)

Five pulled.

B (33:11)

I was just. I was just hearing him.

A (33:13)

I could go on forever about this Harry Potter crap. And don't get me started on the Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them.

B (33:18)

Series, which I haven't really actually watched.

A (33:21)

I actually watched it on a plane recently. It's kind of fire.

B (33:23)

Okay.

A (33:23)

It goes into Dumbledore when he was gay and stuff.

B (33:26)

Oh, I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, great.

A (33:29)

But whatever. Let's not touch this.

B (33:30)

Also, there's like a Hufflepuff main character.

A (33:33)

Yeah, well. Are you Huff?

B (33:35)

I'm Huff.

A (33:35)

Me too.

B (33:36)

What?

A (33:36)

It took me a while to admit I'm lazy and stupid. I used to say.

B (33:41)

Oh, no, I'm definitely hard working. What are you talking about?

A (33:44)

Loyal. I actually am loyal. I've been cheated on multiple times and not realized it because of my loyalty. Here's another stupid one. Like the Amelie thing. But like, I mean, Italian food is really good. Like, did you get. Was the food.

B (33:58)

Are you asking? So many people ask me about Italian prison food. It's still prison food, my friend. So, no, I did not get to eat Italian cuisine.

A (34:07)

I'm not saying, like, Michelin star, but, you know, like a cacio e pepe. It's three ingredients. What'd they give you?

B (34:13)

Gruel. So, I mean, we did get pasta noodles, but often they were just like, plain in olive oil or plain with broth.

A (34:20)

It's not bad.

B (34:22)

I mean, sure, you know what? It's better than the U.S. where you get, like, rotten bologna. So you know what? I'll take it. But, yeah, we were fed twice a day, and it was a very strict, like, the most basic meat, the most basic boiled vegetable, and then pasta, either with oil or broth.

A (34:42)

Did you establish relationships with other women in there? Have you maintained relationships with anyone that you were with?

B (34:49)

Yeah, yeah, actually. So, again, you spent four years of my life there. And who's your bestie? My bestie from prison? Well, there was one other American woman who was my cellmate for quite a while, and we depict her in the show. She's an older woman who really kind of took me under her wing because I was a deer in headlights. Like, I was not prepared for the prison environment. I did not understand that there is, like, a world of, like, poverty and deprivation, that I was just, like, completely, like, I was one of the only people in prison who had all of my teeth. I was one of the few people who could read and write. I had to explain to my cellmates at one point that the Earth is a sphere. Like, the level of just, like, not knowing was shocking to me. And so it really gave me bigger perspective about, like, what this world is all about and the conditions that people like you and me find ourselves in that put us in a position to fail. So I learned to have a lot of sympathy for these women who were guilty of the crimes that they committed, but really had never been set up to make good decisions in the first place.

A (36:06)

How many times have you been asked the question about Orange is the New Black?

B (36:10)

Not that many times. I tried watching that when I came home, and it was too difficult for me to watch.

A (36:17)

Yeah, me too. Blah, blah, blah, you know.

B (36:20)

Oh, no, I'm sorry.

A (36:22)

I'm sorry.

B (36:23)

Yeah. I don't know. Like, it's just I've also, like, visited a prison once since I got back, and actually, this is.

A (36:29)

I wouldn't imagine you'd want to watch that show.

B (36:31)

Yeah, well, I mean, I'm curious to see how prison is depicted now that it's a very real thing for me. But the one time I did go back to prison, like, after all this, to visit was a Washington state prison. And I was going there to support this program called Yoga Behind Bars. And I went to go see the program in person. And of course, I have to go through the whole process of, like, getting patted down and going through the metal detector. And I was given this little, like, badge, and they were like, don't lose the badge or you can't leave the prison. And I was like, fuck off. And then, like, of course we're doing yoga. So I take the badge off and I leave it in the yoga room, and I try to get out of the prison, and they're like, you can't leave. And I was, like, having a panic attack and cried the whole way home.

A (37:14)

I want to talk about the prosecutor in the case.

B (37:18)

Sure.

A (37:18)

I understand that you've. He was a. Can you first, please, like, explain kind of what his attitude was during the investigation, during the prosecution, and what, like. Cause I think it's an interesting thing to share for the story.

B (37:32)

Yeah. Okay. So in the series, we depict not just my personal evolution as a human being who's gone through this process, but also my prosecutors. So in Italy, one thing to know is that prosecutors lead investigations. They're in charge of the investigation. They're not, like, separate from detectives like they are here in the US and so from the very beginning, he was the one who was crafting the narrative about what he believed to be true. And he was the one who previously had investigated this really famous serial killer case in Italy called the Monster of Florence case that went unsolved.

A (38:09)

Sounds scary.

B (38:10)

Yeah, it's basically like the Jack the Ripper of Italy. And it was a very, like, sexually charged, you know, like, mutilated bodies. Really, really horrible stuff. So he had that history behind him. He also investigated.

A (38:23)

He was a pious gentleman. He was, like, religious.

B (38:26)

Yes. He's a very spiritual man, very Catholic, and, you know, just very traditional in nature, like, politically traditional.

A (38:34)

He judged you for you know, being a, like, you know, young woman.

B (38:40)

Yeah, yeah.

A (38:40)

I mean, sexuality.

B (38:42)

Yeah, absolutely. I think that, again, the way that he positioned both Meredith and me is that here's this, like, good, you know, like, not necessarily pious, but, like, pure, virginal British girl who's obviously judgmental because she's British, who is, like, you know, scolding the, you know, flippant and slutty American girl, and the American girl, in response, murders her by raping her and stabbing her to death. That's. That was the narrative that he imagined. And, you know, and he was. He was really explicit about it. Like, he was standing up there in court saying Amanda was taunting and torturing Meredith while, you know, murdering her and saying, this is what you get, you little two goody two shoes. Like, it was all just this, like, thing that he imagined. He also imagined that I was in this, like, secret love triangle with the actual murderer. Because, of course, he had to, like, somehow account for this guy's DNA into the media narrative.

A (39:43)

I think that's what I thought about the case.

B (39:45)

Like, that there was this, like, crazy love triangle.

A (39:47)

Maybe I wasn't like. I wasn't. You know, I was, like, smoking weed in college. I wasn't like.

B (39:53)

That was another thing. I was smoking weed. Therefore, I'm a drug addict.

A (39:56)

Yeah. And watched Amelie, which is not that good anyway.

B (40:00)

But why do guys hate Amelie?

A (40:03)

Sometimes you watch a French movie, and they're like. They say something, and you read it in a subtitle, which is like.

B (40:09)

You know, they have their own language.

A (40:11)

Love is the most powerful drug. And, like, you're like, it sounds beautiful in their beautiful language. But if someone said that in English, I'd be like, shut the fuck up.

B (40:20)

Well, and to your point, though, that, like, there even just ways of saying things becomes ways of thinking things. And I think that was also true in Italian culture, which also has a very, like, romantic bent.

A (40:32)

Like French, where, anyway, Europeans just say the dumbest crap. You know, they're like, there's.

B (40:37)

There's nice, says the American.

A (40:39)

They say things like, do you know Bob Dylan? You know, like. And I'm just like, we're. What are you, 8 years old? What do we ate? Of course, he's my favorite. Do you know? But sergeant Pepper, it's like, fucking. There's. They're too naive. It's too much healthcare. My understanding, just from, like, seeing headlines, was that it was like a Fleetwood Mac situation.

B (41:00)

What does that mean?

A (41:01)

Like a Two couples, and then they're, like, swapping girlfriends. Yeah, I thought that's. That's what. That's what I was like. I was like, yeah, there were, like. There was like. Everyone was having sex.

B (41:13)

This is the swinging 60s.

A (41:15)

And then that's, like, what I kind of superficially saw, like, but I wasn't paying close attention to it because I was, like, focusing on crossovers, dunks, tackles.

B (41:25)

Sure.

A (41:26)

Strong men, gorgeous bodies.

B (41:28)

Sure. Of course. You know, and. Yeah, and I think that's also one of the sort of points the show makes is, like, there's this superficial narrative that people take in bits and pieces here, and there and they get this, like, general vibe, but it doesn't, like, when you actually dig into what really happened. There's so much evidence that reveals a very clear, you know, what happened. And, like, this, like, feeling, this vibe that people have is like, we'll never know what happened, but we know that it was something sexy is just false.

A (42:03)

Yeah. We were talking on the phone yesterday, and this is something that I've been thinking about since researching for this, but we were talking about, like, what would your case. How would it be processed in 2025? And, like, the sense I get is that there would be a massive GoFundMe. Right? You would have, like, fans stands, if you will. Then there would be a backlash, saying, like, if Amanda wasn't beautiful, would anyone care? The third stage would probably be some sort of pizzagate, like, conspiratorial.

B (42:37)

Was that as well at the time.

A (42:39)

So what was that at the time?

B (42:41)

Well, that at the time is this, like, idea that I was in this, like, secret threesome with the. With the actual murderer, and that they were like. So the idea was that I was openly in a relationship with Rafaele, but secretly also in a relationship with this other, like, you know, local burglar, and that they were, like, they were competing for my attention and then. And so raped my roommate for me to, like, out compete each other and then hold her down while I stabbed her to death. Like, that was. That was the story. And then the idea that, like, I was covering it up and that Hillary Clinton was, like, behind the scenes trying to get me acquitted, like, there was. It was insane.

A (43:22)

The level of Hillary Clinton didn't try to help.

B (43:24)

I mean, I think one time she was in, like, she went to go visit Italy on a diplomatic thing, and somebody, like, asked, are you following the Amanda Knox case? And she was like, we at the State Department are aware of the case. And everyone took that to mean that she's, like, gonna, you know, take. You know, the FBI is gonna show up and they're gonna break me out of prison. And no one was doing that.

A (43:42)

Thanks for nothing, Hillary. Oh, well, thanks for nothing, Hillary.

B (43:46)

It's due process, I suppose.

A (43:47)

I know. So you were acquitted after four years, and then there was a second trial, Is that correct?

B (43:52)

Yes.

A (43:53)

So when would this entire ordeal finally. When did it feel wrapped up?

B (43:59)

Depends on what you mean by wrapped up. So I was on trial for murder for eight years, and then eventually that was. The Supreme Court in Italy definitively exonerated me, but they also convicted me of a lesser crime, which was slander. So they said that when I was interrogated and I was coerced into signing statements, that I did so knowingly and maliciously lying to the police. And therefore I am. I'm a criminal and I deserved three years in prison. And that is a charge that I'm still fighting to this day 18 years later.

A (44:41)

When was the first time you returned to the United States and what that.

B (44:45)

Was after four years in prison?

A (44:46)

What was it like for you? What were the. Were the initial lingering, like, feelings you had and. And what stayed?

B (44:54)

Yeah.

A (44:55)

And what did you have to work through?

B (44:57)

So this was actually a really important part that we wanted to depict in the show because in a typical, like, true crime biopic, it's just like a courtroom drama. But Monica and I. So again, Monica Lewinsky, who worked on this project with me, really wanted to. Yeah, she's amazing. She. It was really important to us to show this like, long tail like this, like this. The trauma itself that happened here has a tremendously long tail. And you're like forever altered by this traumatic experience. So, yeah, in those early days and we depict this in the show, it's like even the mere ability to open a door just like took on all of this, like, symbolic weight. And I was just. I marveled at like the banal. The fact that I could open a refrigerator and choose what I wanted to eat. The fact that I could go from one door to. I could go from one room to another without an escort. But at the same time, I'm living under tremendous amount of a new kind of pressure, which is that media pressure that I was a little bit insulated by from the. In the prison. Like, I only ever encountered the media in the courtroom. And now suddenly my house was surrounded. Yeah, there were helicopters outside my house. So, like in this, like, went on for years.

A (46:12)

I imagine there were stalkers. I mean, I imagine there were people that were obsessed with you.

B (46:17)

Yeah. You know, I couldn't get a regular job. I couldn't make friends. I lived in hiding for another four years while I was still undergoing trial. And it was really hard.

A (46:32)

How did you heal from that experience? How did you. I mean, you seem like a well adjusted individual, I guess.

B (46:38)

Well, thank you very much.

A (46:39)

You're welcome.

B (46:40)

Yeah, by frickin knowing my value and having that reasserted for me by the people I love. Like, you know, when I first met. I would not be here if it weren't for my husband Chris, who I met. I met.

A (46:57)

He's a good guy.

B (46:57)

He's a very good guy. Yeah, yeah. No, he didn't. When we first met each other, it was right after I had been definitively exonerated. So I wasn't facing prison time anymore. I wasn't just, like, fighting to stay physically free. And I suddenly was able to experience the world with a new sense of openness. And he was one of the first people I made friends with. Afterwards, I actually interviewed him for his debut novel that came out called War of the Encyclopedists. And so I reviewed it. Check it out, check it out, check it out, check it out. It's a great book. I like to say I wasn't sleeping with the man until after I read it.

A (47:35)

So my girlfriend's never listened to a single podcast or watched a single thing I've ever done. And it's. It's probably better that way.

B (47:41)

Really? You think that she would not want to. Yeah, she's.

A (47:44)

Watch this. I mean, she'd probably be like, what are you. What are you bringing up Amelie so much for?

B (47:49)

Why you hate it.

A (47:50)

Admit it's not that good.

B (47:51)

I love that movie. I will fight you.

A (47:53)

How did you even like that movie? It was the night that your life. I would hate it even more if your life got ruined. Night. I watched Amelie.

B (48:00)

Amelie is the reason why I was safely in someone else's home instead of at home getting raped and murdered myself. Amelie saved me.

A (48:08)

So, yeah, Amelie is a good guy or a good lady. Yeah, yeah, she's annoying, but she's a good lady. We can admit it. Do you. Do you often think about what your life would be like had this never happened?

B (48:21)

I do. And sometimes I worry that I would have been less valuable person. Like, I do think that I carry with me, like, before all this happened, I was annoying. I was like an annoying Amelie person who nothing bad had ever happened to. I was annoying.

A (48:40)

We were 20, though.

B (48:41)

I was 20, and. And I had, like, zero perspective about the world. Everything was like a fucking Disney princess fantasy. And you weren't annoying.

A (48:50)

You were figuring it out.

B (48:52)

I was figuring it out, but so was Amelie, man.

A (48:54)

There had to be a moment where. Because obviously you were under such scrutiny when you got back where you wanted it to probably disappear from the public eye, when was the moment where you wanted to return to the public eye? Like, how did you become confident or empowered enough to do that? What factored into that decision? 12 questions.

B (49:15)

Yeah.

A (49:16)

You want some more?

B (49:17)

Yeah, sure, go for it.

A (49:19)

What happens at the end of Amelie? I forget the ending. Maybe it's actually a good movie.

B (49:23)

It's sweet. She. She finds another Quirky guy. So there's a manic pixie dream guy.

A (49:29)

Quirky guy means that he has a shady past. Let's be honest. He did some things in college.

B (49:33)

He does take pictures of people and collect them. Yeah, it's true.

A (49:38)

Is she okay?

B (49:39)

She. They seem very happy together.

A (49:42)

No.

B (49:42)

Okay, sorry, not super relevant.

A (49:45)

No, no, no, it's not relevant at all.

B (49:47)

What was your previous question?

A (49:48)

The previous question was like, obviously you wanted to disappear from the public eye probably, and then what empowered you to re. Enter public life?

B (49:56)

So one of the issues was that, yes, I wanted to hide from public life because I want to just go back to being an anonymous college student. And the world wouldn't let me. I kept being followed around. I kept, like, I couldn't go to class without people taking pictures of me and posting them. So, like, becoming an anonymous person was not an option for me. And I really struggled with that because I felt like there wasn't a good option for me. I couldn't be a private person, but also as a public person, I was a pariah. So what role do I have? And I felt completely trapped. And for a long time, like, I didn't know what to do. I just got a minimum wage job and I was like in a bookstore, underground. Literally underground. And I had no idea what I could do. And again, it wasn't until I was writing, you know, I was writing for a local newspaper at the time under a pseudonym.

A (50:44)

The Stranger.

B (50:45)

No, not the Stranger. The Stranger wrote really bad shit about me. But, you know, what was it a girl? No, it was not.

A (50:51)

Okay, never mind my tv.

B (50:52)

However, sorry. However, the chief editor apologized to me recently for that.

A (50:59)

Have you been back to Italy?

B (51:00)

Well, that is something that the show shows is when I go back to Italy and confront my process prosecutor. But, you know, and you did ask me that about that before, like, what's the deal with the prosecutor? And one of the things that helped me sort of figure out this time, this time in my life where I'm still feeling really trapped was I was also struggling with the why of it all. Like, why did this man look at me, a young woman with no precedent, no motive, no nothing, you know, connecting me to this crime? Why did he look at me and think, there's my rapist and murderer? Like, why? And I just. It just bothered me that this person who had harmed me probably believed that he was doing the right thing. So how could that be possible? And that's why I reached out to him, was to ask him, did he apologize? Did you get well, I'm not gonna spoil the show for you. You have to watch the show.

A (51:48)

I mean, it's like eight episodes before I saw Titanic. I knew that it was gonna crash.

B (51:53)

Okay, well, you know, I'm gonna go.

A (51:56)

No, I mean, like, well, I guess. How can I ask in a way that's not a spoiler alert?

B (52:01)

Okay, yes, the way you can ask. It's not a spoiler alert.

A (52:04)

Did it give you closure? Right? Did it. Did it make you feel better or whole again?

B (52:12)

And in a really, really surprising way?

A (52:13)

I'm a professional. That was a good spin.

B (52:15)

Yeah, you're. That's a good spin. Yeah, no, sorry. I totally missed you.

A (52:20)

That was a nice one.

B (52:21)

Yeah. Yeah. Very profesh.

A (52:22)

No, so go ahead.

B (52:24)

Yeah. No. When I figured out that my well being didn't depend on him giving me what I needed, which was acknowledgement and a mea culpa, as soon as I realized that my well being didn't depend on his choices anymore, it depended on my own. Then I realized that, okay, what can I do? What can I choose to do in this moment that will. That speaks to who I am and what I really believe? And what that was, was giving him the thing that he didn't give me, which is the benefit of the doubt. And I said a lot of things, which included defending myself, but which also included acknowledging his humanity and his belief that he was doing the right thing at the time.

A (53:12)

No one wants to believe that they're like a.

B (53:15)

That they're the bad guy. And he made me the bad guy, but I didn't turn him into that.

A (53:22)

Did you want a knuckle sandwich him ever?

B (53:24)

No, I'm not a knuckle sandwich person.

A (53:26)

You want a knuckle sandwich him? No. Really?

B (53:29)

No, I think instead. Instead what you find when you actually, like, sit down and listen to somebody without judgment is that they become. They become fragile. And like, I can't hold this, like, fragile person. Like, he is a person who is struggling himself with his legacy and with his decisions, and I have sympathy for that. So.

A (53:56)

No, I. I guess, yeah, it's pretty inspiring what you're saying right now, because you have to recognize he's someone that kind of ruined your life, but you recognize him as a human being. I suppose, yeah.

B (54:09)

It's not like that difficult a thing, but everyone says, like, oh, my God, how did you do that? And it's like, well, it's the truth. Like, the thing that concerns me is not the easy story where it's like, he's a fucking bad guy. Who did a fucking bad thing. That's the easy story. The more true story. No, it's not how life works. And if you really want to be an effective person in the world and if you really care about the truth, you have to acknowledge that, like, everyone thinks they're the hero of their own fucking story. And like, he, he believed he was the hero, and now he's being confronted with the fact that I'm not the monster that he thought he was, that he thought I was. And now he has to reckon with that. And I have great sympathy for him.

A (54:55)

Well, first of all, you just did a spoiler alert entirely. Ah, but no, but in reality, that's probably accomplished your goal, like, of what you were seeking to do is just make him grapple with the fact that you are forgiving, like three dimensional human being.

B (55:13)

Yeah.

A (55:15)

As our Lord and Savior, Mr. JC has taught him.

B (55:20)

Sure. Yeah. Well, and to your point, like, he's a spiritual person, and I think that he had a spiritual experience.

A (55:26)

Yeah. You were being Christian.

B (55:28)

I guess so.

A (55:28)

You out Christian?

B (55:30)

I guess so. I Jesus Jiu Jitsu'd him, dude.

A (55:33)

No, I mean, I find that incredibly inspiring, what you just said. It's genuinely.

B (55:38)

But that's how I really feel. I mean, like, again, like. And I think that's why this story is super relevant today, where we find ourselves factioned by alternative realities and misinformation. And there's this, like, this great resistance to the idea that we could ever find common ground. And it's like, I think people are really cynical about finding common ground. And I want to push back on that notion and say, actually, like, one, we should stop just trying to find fault with each other and stop trying to, like, find reasons to hate each other. Like, I'm so, I'm so tired of people, like, finding reasons to be mad about something that is, like, so inconsequential. Like, I've had something happen to me that I genuinely had every reason to, like, hate the entire fucking world because of it. And like, I chose not to because that's not the best way to live your life. And like, I, I have a lot of, like, I, I want to push back on this notion that, like, to be righteous, you have to be angry. You don't.

A (56:38)

What is the sensation of seeing your life dramatized? How do you process that? And how involved were you in the development of that narrative?

B (56:48)

Yeah, well, because this is not the first time that I have been turned into a dramatization. Right. This is just the first time that I've Ever had a hand in it? I've. You know, there have been Lifetime films, and there was the Matt Damon film Still Water. Yes.

A (57:02)

I watched it on a plane.

B (57:03)

Yeah. What'd you think?

A (57:04)

I didn't connect that, actually. That. That was.

B (57:07)

Oh, yeah. They were advertising it as, this is the Amanda Knox story, but slightly different. And of course, the Amanda Knox character is at least indirectly responsible for her roommate's death. So it's just, like, perpetuating this, like, sex narrative of, oh, they were in a sex triangle thing. It was just. It was irresponsible. And so, anyway, so, like, this. This came about because Monica reached out to me. She's already done, you know, impeachment. She executive produced that. And she wanted to, I guess, you know, be the. Help me be the next person who gets to tell my story in this way. And this time around, it was really interesting because I've always had this, like, negative connotation with the idea of there being a doppelganger version of me out there. It's always been a negative doppelganger.

A (57:56)

Grace Van Patten, give it up for her.

B (57:57)

Grace Van Patten is incredible. She is so.

A (58:02)

She's so talented.

B (58:03)

So talented. And she dimensionalizes all of these aspects of me so that it's not just this cartoon character.

A (58:10)

And you formed a relationship with her when she was developing, like, the character.

B (58:14)

Yeah, sure. I mean, I was involved from the whole process, from casting to breaking the story to I co wrote the final episode with the curator and showrunner, K.J. steinberg, who I have to give all the credit to because, like, she. Like, she didn't have to involve me so much in the creative process. Like, she could have just taken it and been like, okay, sure, good job. You're an executive producer. But I'm gonna do my thing. Like, she really involved me the entire way forward. And I'm really grateful that she. She mentored me, really, through this process. So, yeah, I was there on set. I was watching all of the different cuts of all the different episodes. And of course, I've been promoting the hell out of it because I believe in it. It's a good show.

A (58:55)

Is. Were there. Are there any moments where it's just seeing, like, you're revisiting a trauma there?

B (59:01)

Like, oh, hell, yeah.

A (59:02)

Watching it.

B (59:03)

Oh, yeah. Over and over and over again.

A (59:05)

Yeah. It's got to be difficult for you to process.

B (59:07)

It was difficult, I think, because I'm finally executive producing a project. I felt a great responsibility to get it right. The good thing was, though, is that I was in a. You know, I was in a warehouse full of hundreds of people who I deeply felt also were very concerned about getting it right.

A (59:29)

Yeah.

B (59:30)

And that made me feel so safe and supported and so. Like, for instance, the interrogation scene. It's in episode two. Have you seen it yet? Have you watched.

A (59:43)

I watched the pilot episode.

B (59:44)

You watched the pilot episode? Okay, so watch the second episode I'm watching tonight, but the one that is available right now is the second episode. And then next week, there's another episode that comes out. But. Yeah, so you can see this interrogation scene, which was filmed over the course of two days, 10 hours a day, from every different angle. And the psychological journey that Grace, as me, goes on, the psychological journey of her interrogators, it's such a nuanced thing, and it's not like the way that they depict it in, you know, Law and Order TV shows. It's not like it's way more complicated. Again, all of these stories are way more complicated and nuanced. And so for me, I was watching this, which was the worst experience of all. Being interrogated was far worse than, like, being convicted. Like, all of it was. That was the one moment where I was made to feel utterly insane and like I did not know what was true or not. And I was so scared. You're alone and so alone and trying to communicate in a foreign language. Like, it just. It was very, very scary. And getting that scene right was. I knew it was a challenge because I was the only one in this entire warehouse who knew what it was like. And yet they had done all this incredible research. They had talked to all of these people and came together and made it. And I wept with relief at the end because we had gotten it right.

A (61:07)

That's beautiful.

B (61:08)

It's really good. And I. Look, you'll have to text me how you. How you react to it.

A (61:12)

I will.

B (61:13)

Yeah.

A (61:13)

I mean, give me the play by play. I'll live. Text.

B (61:16)

Yeah. I love it.

A (61:16)

I'll be like, this reminds me of a certain. Certain Amelie.

B (61:21)

Yeah, there you go. There are Amelie. Like, there's an homage to Amelie in this show. Did you notice that already from the pilot?

A (61:27)

It's just in French.

B (61:28)

Okay.

A (61:29)

No.

B (61:29)

What do you have against French?

A (61:31)

I don't know.

B (61:31)

Why?

A (61:33)

No, I'm just kidding. I love. I was just Imorissa.

B (61:35)

Yeah, right. That's right.

A (61:37)

It's kind of.

B (61:38)

I think I understand you now. You hate love. Things like you. Everything you love you like.

A (61:43)

The only thing I hate is myself.

B (61:45)

Which means you love yourself the Most. Someone just felt heard. Someone just felt heard.

A (61:53)

How long I've known you? I took you to a Drake concert when you were 17. It made me incredibly. I was 17. No, I mean, I think. What is. What's one message you want someone to take away from the show? I guess, in conclusion, let's say.

B (62:13)

Yeah, sure. So I think that the experience that I went through, while it is very extreme, is actually a more universal story than people give it credit for. And the universal story being that life is going to come at you, and even if you do everything right, something bad is going to happen to you. And at that point, you have a choice. If you can survive that bad thing that happens to you, do you let it have a say over who you become, or do you have a say over who you become? Do you take ownership and how do you do that? And I think that I've learned to do that in my life, and it's come through a lot of struggle and a lot of obstacles, but, like, it is absolutely possible and I believe in that. And so I just want. I would like people to come away from this series feeling very hopeful.

A (63:02)

I think that's a perfect place to leave it, guys. I mean, I think that's. I find that. I really appreciate you coming on. I find that incredibly inspirational. Check out the show.

B (63:11)

Yeah. Thank you. Check out the show.

A (63:14)

Check out the podcast.

B (63:15)

Yep. Hard Knocks. The show is called the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox on Hulu.

A (63:19)

Check out Amanda comedy clubs all over America. You're going to be going on tour. How much time do you have? How much material do you have?

B (63:26)

I did an hour.

A (63:27)

You did an hour?

B (63:28)

Yeah, I did an hour.

A (63:30)

Just bit. Bit, Bit, bit or what? You did some alt comedy style stuff?

B (63:35)

I mean, sure. Like, I mix it up with some stuff that makes you laugh. It makes you cry.

A (63:40)

Do you call your dad and, like, play a prank on, like a prank call?

B (63:44)

No, but one of my favorite things is when my dad is in the audience and I start telling sex jokes.

A (63:48)

Really?

B (63:49)

Yeah. It's hard.

A (63:49)

How does he react?

B (63:50)

Boom. No, he's so sweet. He's very supportive.

A (63:53)

Anyway, thank you so much for coming. Yeah, thanks so much and thank you guys for coming today. Thank you for Andrew, Sam.