CHUCK KLOSTERMAN Talks Football, Violence, American Identity

Summary

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The Adam Friedland Show

Episode: Chuck Klosterman Talks Football, Violence, American Identity

Date: January 29, 2026
Guest: Chuck Klosterman, author and cultural critic

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Overview

This episode dives into the past, present, and future of American football with acclaimed author and cultural critic Chuck Klosterman. Using Klosterman’s new book, Football, as a springboard, Adam and Chuck traverse topics spanning football’s violent allure, its cultural impact, American identity, sports mythmaking, the peculiarities of small-town America, and why football dominates the national consciousness. The conversation is spiked with humor, personal anecdotes, and deep cultural analysis, all in the Adam Friedland Show’s irreverent, self-deprecating tone.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Football’s American Mythology and Media Simulacrum

• Football as War Surrogate:
  Chuck explains that football's roots stem from a post-Civil War desire to maintain a culture of masculine conflict. It was invented as "a surrogate for going to war and watching all your friends die" (34:03).
• Success on TV & Cletus the FOX Robot:
  Discussion of football’s ideal marriage with television—both as a visual spectacle and as complex, arcane rules for audiences to get obsessed with.

"Football is the ideal product to show on television... almost the perfect marriage of these two things." —Chuck Klosterman (35:47)
Humorous back-and-forth about "Cletus," FOX’s guitar-playing CGI robot.
Adam: “How much do you attribute, like, it’s like, success on television to Cletus?... He's the robot that plays electric guitar.” (00:01, 36:14)

2. From Small Towns to Monoculture

• Growing Up in North Dakota
  Chuck’s rural roots meant only national, mass culture reached him, positioning him well as a critic of mass culture (16:43).
  Stories of bizarre rural traditions—like the whole town attending weddings, with fire trucks moved to clear the hall for dancing.
• Football as the True U.S. Monoculture
  Despite the supposed shattering of monoculture, football remains a rare shared national event.

"There's no more monoculture—except for football and Taylor Swift." —Chuck Klosterman (26:27)

3. Football's Inexplicable Dominance & Decline

• Popularity by the Numbers
  Football’s overwhelming TV dominance: 93 of the top 100 broadcasts in 2023.
• A Looming Future Decline
  Klosterman predicts football will become a niche interest, "like marching band music" (26:25), due to a weakening of generational connections and changing economics.

"It will still be very popular because it's kind of a tautological thing now—football is what you watch on Sunday... but it won't mean as much." —Chuck Klosterman (43:19)

4. Violence, Scandal, and the Unstoppable Machine

• Concussions, Kaepernick, and PR Scandals
  Debate about how concussions (Junior Seau, Jovan Belcher) and cultural controversies (e.g., Kaepernick kneeling) have failed to dent the NFL’s popularity.

"Boxing was damaged by the perception of violence to it. Football was not." —Chuck Klosterman (31:27)

• Corporate Maneuvering of Problems

"Anytime there was somebody who came out... 'I'm a scientist. I have troubling information about this,' ...'we're going to hire you.' That's the smartest thing." —Chuck Klosterman (29:44)

5. Soccer, NBA, and Cultural Export Failures

• Why Hasn't Football Gone Global?
  Despite American pop culture’s global reach, football’s complexity and structural demands have prevented worldwide penetration.

"Football is almost, as you stated, unnecessarily complex... you can’t just get 22 guys together and play." —Chuck Klosterman (40:25)

• Soccer’s Youth System vs. U.S. Pro Sports
  Adam admires European soccer academies—a sense of 'one of our own' missing from the NFL’s draft system (60:06-61:56)

6. College Football's NIL Revolution

• Rise of Indiana and the Economics of Change
  How new Name, Image, and Likeness (NIL) rules and transfer portals have allowed previously unsuccessful programs to rise, e.g., Indiana’s ascension in 2026.
• Long-Term Consequences
  Short-term excitement but likely erosion of college football's unique regional character (66:23).

7. Sports as Opiate vs. Meaningful Reality

• Coping Mechanism or Community?
  Adam, with tongue-in-cheek sincerity, worries that mainstream entertainments like football and The Mandalorian sedate and distract Americans.

"Just like things can be falling apart outside, but, like, we're gonna want to sit down and just like, watch this crap." —Adam Friedland (51:19)

• Klosterman’s Nuanced Rebuttal

"Sports are part of reality... what's happening on the field is a simulation of things. There is an unreality, [but] the stakes are completely fabricated. But if you win the Super Bowl... they play the next year, right?" —Chuck Klosterman (54:02)

8. Superstars, Monoculture Erosion and Entertainment

• Jordan, Belichick, and NBA Personality Risk
  NBA nearly rivaled football until it was revealed the public’s attachment was to individuals—Jordan’s retirement leading to an audience drop (78:42).
• Monoculture’s Ongoing Decline
  Reference to the MAS*H finale—impossible to beat in ratings; "it's just a continual erosion of that, of this shared... thing" (55:54).

9. Music, British Bands, and Cultural Recycling

• The duo riff on why Britain is better at band-making, exchange Beatles/Velvet Underground/Beach Boys rankings, and explore why cultural forms like rock 'n' roll boomerang and get improved overseas (92:05-93:44).

10. Random Hypotheticals & Pop Culture Musings

• Adam joyfully peppers Chuck with hypotheticals—who wins if Jordan doesn't leave, if Donaghy wears a wire, and if Drake will win an Oscar for playing Obama (85:00, 84:53).
• Hilarious digressions about supergroups, the Traveling Wilburys, and whether Ringo’s solo “caveman” work outshines the others (85:45—92:05).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Facelessness of Football's Appeal:

  "People actually care about the product ... Football, by having this almost faceless automaton world where we're just watching this simulation of warfare, that's what people like." —Chuck Klosterman (30:53)

• On Predicting Football’s Future:

  "I have a suspicion that it will be like a niche interest. It won’t be the same... It seems more likely that football would actually swallow up every other sport in America... but I don’t think it’ll happen." —Chuck Klosterman (26:25)

• Adam, on the appeal of the NFL on TV:

  “Literally have two flags and a chain that they have to bring out... That’s good, right?” —Adam Friedland (33:40)

• On Football’s socialism:

  “The NFL is probably the greatest example of successful socialism in the United States. So you should be into that.” —Chuck Klosterman (37:49)

• On sports as sedative:

  “What you’re saying about football... that’s like a Noam Chomsky argument... [But] A bad, sort of dead end life in America is still not necessarily a terrible life to experience, because there are so many ways to find meaning within that.” —Chuck Klosterman (51:40)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:01 — Cletus the TV Football Robot, Monoculture, and Why TV Football Works
• 05:33 — Evolution of cultural criticism and its normalization
• 16:43 — Growing up in North Dakota and mass culture
• 26:25 — Predicting football’s decline and its future as niche interest
• 29:44 — Concussions, violence, and the NFL’s PR strategies
• 31:27 — Why violence hurts boxing but not football
• 34:03 — Football created as a war surrogate
• 43:19 — Football as a tautological tradition
• 60:06 — Soccer academies vs. American talent development
• 66:23 — NIL, transfer portals, and the erosion of college football tradition
• 78:42 — NBA’s failed monoculture due to overreliance on individual superstars
• 85:45 — Rock supergroups and the strange power of the Traveling Wilburys
• 92:05 — Why are British bands so good?
• 95:13 — Will soccer ever supplant football in America?

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Show Tone

• Irreverent, self-deprecating, and tangentially brilliant. Adam frequently pokes fun at himself ("I have the brain of a one-year-old”; 16:08), while Chuck delivers dry, incisive cultural wisdom, often gently undercut by Adam’s goofiness.
• Frequent asides and hypothetical questions keep the episode lively, mixing high concept cultural critique with random laughs and personal fandom confessions.

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For the Listener

If you want a cultural x-ray of football's strange grip on American life—one laced with nostalgia, future speculation, and banter about everything from Beatles to broadcast rights to what makes the middle of nowhere "nowhere”—this episode is an essential listen.

Transcript

[Adam Friedland]

How much do you attribute, like, it's like, success on television to Cletus?

[Chuck Klosterman]

What?

[Adam Friedland]

Cletus.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Cletus.

[Adam Friedland]

He's the robot that plays electric guitar.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Oh, yeah. How do you know his name?

[Adam Friedland]

Because I like sports.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah, I know, but I like sports.

[Adam Friedland]

But you see him getting defensive. He wrote a book on.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I know, I know. This is gonna be. It's like, cletus, I am. That's right. You're tired. You're tired.

[Adam Friedland]

You could have consulted with me. You should have had a hold.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I thought you were talking about the Simpsons character a second.

[Adam Friedland]

I believe his name is cletus. And if his name isn't cletus, I'm going to be really embarrassed. Can someone look that up? It's Cletus dominated once again. Yeah, flip that. Yes, flip that. Hello and welcome back to the Adam friedland show. I'm adam friedland. First off, I'm doing helium comedy club February 19th to the 21st. And also I will be in Los Angeles at the Regent Theater May 9. Here's a link in the description. There is. There's a. There's a link. A different word. There is a link in the description. There is a. There is a link in the description for tickets. That's fine. I'd like to thank our members for supporting us here on YouTube.com as always, you guys are the ones that make the show possible. You keep the lights on, and if you'd like to join at the second or third tiers, you can get your name in the credits of this fine program. Click join at the top of the page or click the link in the description below. And there's also a link for a patreon, if you prefer patreon. And guys, merch is available. The AdamFreeland Show. Check it out. My guest this week is American author Chuck Klosterman. Chuck is known as one of the.

[Podcast Announcer]

Country'S premier cultural critics, tackling any and.

[Adam Friedland]

All facets of pop culture through his.

[Podcast Announcer]

Writing for the last 30 years.

[Adam Friedland]

His newest book, football, is about exactly that. Football, the game's past, present, and future. It's a perceptive look into what entices us about the uniquely American sport. And it's on the shelves now, so check it out. Football got the big game coming up.

[Podcast Announcer]

Might want to read it before then.

[Adam Friedland]

So you can understand the big game. Now, before we begin, I'd like to introduce a new segment called my 2 cents, where I give my 2 cents on topics of the day today in honor of our guest, here's my two cents on football. Like Chuck Klosserman. I'm a football fan. Or at least I was up until they started doing that so called dancing in the end zone. If I wanted to see that garbage, I'd say up past 10pm and turn on VHS, VH1, or whatever happened to scoring a touchdown, politely handing the ball over to the official, saying, thank you for being you. Go you. That's what I would say. You go, you. Getting back to doing your job. And if you want to celebrate with your win with a dance, we could just please keep it classy. Instead of the jerk or the soldier boy dance, how about the foxtrot, the Bolero, the Viennese waltz. But hey, that's just my two cents. Please welcome, please enjoy, Chuck Klosterman. I like that. Our next guest is the writer, Chuck Klosterman. His new book, football is out now. Everyone, check it out, everyone. Chuck Klosterman. What's up, dude?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Hey.

[Adam Friedland]

I'm really excited.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, it's great to be here. I appreciate you having me on. Like I said, I was a bit nervous because, you know, I. I've seen clips from your show where the subject comes across as a. But that's not your fault, really.

[Adam Friedland]

I. I try to be the moron.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, it's a straight moron. Or the straight man.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, certainly not. Certainly not straight. Don't tell the family. Ollie. My girlfriend's cousin is doing sound. This is not making the episode. I'm a big fan. I read, I used to read you from the time I was like, I think late high school.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I know it's weird to hear that, but I understand it.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, yeah, it was like what I. I think the way I found out about cool things, because it was prior to like Spotify or whatever, I'd like go to like Barnes and Noble and like open up Spin magazine. I'd write names of bands and then I download them on Kazaa. And through that process, I became familiar with you.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, when I was at Spin, it was the early, you know, 2002 to 2006. And it was strange because the perception at the time then is like the cool part of Spin was over, that everyone believed that had happened in the 90s, but I guess then when we left, 10 years moved on and people said the same thing about our little period.

[Adam Friedland]

So I. Yeah, no, I. Yeah, I remember. I read. Yeah, your books and I thought it made me feel cool, I think. But. But for the audience and people that don't know you, it effectively what you kind of Write about is kind of. It is the nonsense that me and my friends spend hours over. Like, you know, like, you know, what would have happened if Drew Bledsoe, you know, didn't get hurt? You know, like, speculative kind of, but. But then the intersection with that and culture, I suppose. Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, it just seems completely un. Meaningful now. The idea of writing about culture seems very common. It was less common in, like, book form when I first started publishing. It was seen as sort of this strange, gimmicky novelty thing. And now it's like, it's not weird at all. Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

I think for me, it was like David Foster Wallace and you. I mean, those were the two guys.

[Chuck Klosterman]

That were writing about the cheaper version.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, really?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Oh, for sure.

[Adam Friedland]

I thought pretty equal, actually. Were you guys, like, did you know him?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Never met him.

[Adam Friedland]

Never met him.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Never met him.

[Adam Friedland]

Do you think he would have been mean, you think?

[Chuck Klosterman]

No, I don't think he would.

[Adam Friedland]

They.

[Chuck Klosterman]

What they always say about him is that he was very kind. That doesn't necessarily mean he was nice. Yeah, but everyone had always said that, at least outwardly he was, you know, over the top kind. That it was rare that someone had an encounter with him that was negative. Although now, like, there's, like, a biography about him and completely changes the way.

[Adam Friedland]

That he stalked that lady.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yes. And there's. And the one thing that's a little disenchanting is, like. I mean, he was. He was probably the last writer who really did sort of influence me, like. Like, in that I would read this, and I was like, I wonder if I could do something like that. And I feel like you become a writer when you stop that. But the thing that was kind of a bummer is it sounds like the most interesting things from his nonfiction work were the parts that he made up. Yeah. And that's. That was. It's. Cause those are the things that are so memorable. Like, he wrote this very famous essay about going on a cruise ship, of course. And there's one section there, like, where he's playing chess against some random little kid. And it's just. It's an amazing passage, and he's memorizing these moves and all these things, and maybe it turns out, like, that didn't happen. So the thing I remember most is the thing he added. But, you know, that's creative nonfiction, I guess.

[Adam Friedland]

Two things that. That reminds me of. One is, did you see the last Scorsese Dylan documentary, the Rolling Thunder?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Oh, that. That one. Yeah. Fake documentary.

[Adam Friedland]

So, yeah, it was like, half fake. Which like, kind of made it, like. But there was something about it that was true. You know what I mean? Like, because it was half fake. Like, narratively, it's like we buy. Basically, when I learned about Bob Dylan or the Beatles, it's like looking at a picture of your parents before you were born. Right. It's not real. Like, you weren't there. Right. You create a story. Right. And that's what I found to be the brilliant thing about that.

[Chuck Klosterman]

What I wondered that film was if someone liked Bob Dylan but knew nothing about the movie. So they just came into it cold. I wonder at what point in the movie they would have been like, oh, yeah, this couldn't have happened. Because if there's one, you know, he wore, like, white kind of pancake makeup for a while. Yeah. And in the movie, he's saying, like, this girl went and saw Kiss, and she came back and told me about it, you know? And then, you know, Bob Dylan has written with Gene Simmons. They have some relationships. It's like, it could have been. You know, I knew going in, though, that this wasn't all real, so. But I was thinking about myself, like, when would I have figured this out? I don't think we.

[Adam Friedland]

I think people probably would have bought it because it was presented as a documentary. It is, you know, and people know Bob Dylan's real. That. And also it could. You know, like, it doesn't matter at a certain point. Right?

[Chuck Klosterman]

It doesn't. Well, I mean, I think Dylan would say. It absolutely doesn't. That he would probably argue that whatever myth you project on him is the most important thing about his identity outside of the music.

[Podcast Announcer]

But.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Have you.

[Adam Friedland]

Have you seen that film? I'm still here with Joaquin Phoenix. That's kind of like. That's one of my top five favorite movies ever, actually. Basically, it's this documentary that you later find out was like, kind of a project that Joaquin Phoenix and Casey Affleck were doing for a year, which is. He presented that he was going crazy and wanted to be a rapper. And he was. He went on Letterman, famously.

[Chuck Klosterman]

That was the big thing. It was almost like the promotion for that movie was as important as the film. Right.

[Adam Friedland]

And what you find at the end, there's, like, he goes to Costa Rica or something. Or, like, I forget. He goes to someplace where his father lives. He's in a. Like, a rainforest, and he goes in this, like, lake, and there's this baptismal kind of scene at the end. But you realize, like, this man is exhausted. Like, it doesn't matter. If it's fake or if it's real, because it happened, right? Like. And kind of that blurring, I'm like, oh, that's what art is, you know? And like, that's. It kind of like made a huge impression on me. Shortly after, I was probably reading stuff written by you.

[Chuck Klosterman]

What's interesting about that, though, is because of when it happened, you know, in the 21st century, as opposed to happening in the 70s, there's almost an assumption there had to have been from them, that of course people are gonna realize that this isn't real. Where there was a time when you could have done something like that and the artifact would just be what it is. And people would say, is this real? Is it not real? I don't know if they were like, steering into the fact that we can do this because eventually people will know, or if there was actually if that was the last attempt to legitimately fool people into thinking something false is actual. I mean, like, I would guess that there were some people when Spinal Tie up came out, they might have watched the first few minutes of it. Especially when they're talking to the people in the know, the. The crowd shots, they might be like, well, this. I just never heard of this band. The band Anvil had a documentary and people wondered, is this real or false?

[Adam Friedland]

Amazing documentary.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Anvil and is real.

[Adam Friedland]

And I will say I was a little kid, I thought Spinal Tap was real.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Did you?

[Adam Friedland]

I thought it was a real band. What age did you see it at? Maybe five.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Wow. Yeah, cuz I saw it when I was like junior in high school.

[Adam Friedland]

Exactly. Yeah, but it must have been like 93.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Why were you watching this is Spinal Tap at?

[Adam Friedland]

My parents let me watch anything. Yeah, they covered my eyes for the sex parts, though.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, there's no. There's no sex in that in any movie.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, yeah, but cover my eyes like sex and let me watch violence.

[Chuck Klosterman]

So what was the most insane thing you saw at the earliest age? I would like. Would they let you watch Nine and a Half Weeks or something when you were a kid? Or like Faces of Death? Were you watching that?

[Adam Friedland]

No, I wasn't watching, like, fucking. Yeah, Yeah, I wasn't watching. I wasn't watching Red Asphalt, the driver's ed movie.

[Chuck Klosterman]

You remember that?

[Podcast Announcer]

No.

[Adam Friedland]

Remember that driver said movie, like Last.

[Chuck Klosterman]

House on the Left? You would be like, oh, he'll love me.

[Adam Friedland]

I was watching mainly just like this next snap. I was watching a lot of Dolph Lundgren, John Claude Van Damme. Sure. Schwarzenegger, Stallone. Yeah, I was watching All. I watched all of those movies with my dad.

[Podcast Announcer]

A lot of the.

[Adam Friedland]

Like, secure the parameter.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Lock it down, like a lot of that. And then a guy's neck gets snapped.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

But I think this is kind of like a tangent, but I think because they covered my eyes for the sex and let me watch all the killing. I think killing. I didn't want to do it because it wasn't a taboo, but sex, I was like, I wanted to do sex because it was against the.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It is a common thing. You'll hear people say, it's like. You'll be like, oh, it's crazy. We'll let kids watch violence, but we won't let them watch sex. But it actually makes sense because the fact of the matter is, people are going to encounter sex in their life, and if they watch a film version or pornography or whatever these things are, an early age is going to warp their perception of this thing that's actually going to happen to them. They're probably not going to encounter, like, a mass shooting. And if they do, I would almost want my kid desensitized to it. I would rather have him be able to be like, I understand that this can exist in the world. You know, it's like, it does seem weird to. To demonize sex more than violence. But the fact of the matter is, sex is something that's part of the life, the average person's life.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Violence is not.

[Adam Friedland]

One time a guy did a splits and then punched me, and I was like, I'm desensitized.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah. I was comfortable with that. You knew it could happen.

[Adam Friedland]

You knew it could happen. I'd seen him do the splits and punch a guy. So I was like, this is finally. It's.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I mean, if there ever was.

[Adam Friedland]

It's happening.

[Chuck Klosterman]

If. If there ever was a zombie apocalypse, there are plenty of people ready for that. Like, they have learned what to do, like where to shoot it. You know, all these things.

[Adam Friedland]

Those are some of the worst people in society. The ones with the sticker, they're like zombie defense unit or like on their car. Those are the worst guys. Well, them and Patriots fans, I guess. Okay, let's get to you. Cause going back to the David Foster Wallace thing, you guys were both kind of doing this social criticism, I guess, or what would you. How would you describe, like, kind of what you've your bread and butter doing?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, you know, he would have said that he was a novelist, and then he also did nonfiction. And it was kind of journalism and it was kind of cultural criticism. His journalism Was really essayistic or whatever, I suppose for me, like, I worked at newspapers for about eight years, and it was. It was very like. I loved the job, you know, but it was limiting, and I wanted to be able to do things outside of that. And I was like, the only way to do that is books, because I wanted to sort of write about things in a way that, I don't know, was more kind of entertaining, interesting in a different way, you know? So I suppose it's cultural criticism, I guess.

[Adam Friedland]

A girl has ever read one of your things ever? Yeah. Yeah, probably. It's got maybe like.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Like, I mean, it's a little.

[Adam Friedland]

Maybe triple digits.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It's a little bit like being in Rush, I think. Yeah. Where it's like. Like it was. But I will. You know, this was a big. You know, I wrote this first book, Fragarok City, and it was just about listening, like the hair metal in the Midwest. I would do book readings and like 14 people would show up, and they were all exactly like me. Exactly like, they looked like me. And then I wrote Sex, Drugs and Cocoa Puffs. And the biggest change about that is at book readings, there were suddenly gnawing more people, but, like, a third of them were women. That was very surprising, you know.

[Adam Friedland]

Nice. You think because sex. You put sex in the side?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, no, I think I talk about John Cusack in that book. I don't know.

[Adam Friedland]

It's just.

[Podcast Announcer]

It's like.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I'm not sure what it is. I'm not sure how, why, you know, and then.

[Adam Friedland]

But.

[Chuck Klosterman]

And now it's like kind of your career goes up. And now I'm kind of on the other side again. It's sort of moving. I assume by the end it'll, like, the last time I write a book, it'll be like the first one where like 14 people exactly like me will show up.

[Adam Friedland]

That's kind of beautiful.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It is. That's how it is. That's how it goes for every.

[Adam Friedland]

It's a rise and fall.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah, yeah, you gotta.

[Adam Friedland]

It's kind of. That's kind of what life is, right? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The book is football. I think it's for. It's for women. Yeah. Great.

[Chuck Klosterman]

For your book club.

[Adam Friedland]

It's been compared to the gay hockey Netflix show a lot.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Right? Yes. I'm hearing that everywhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

You have the. The QB one and of course, the center.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yes, yeah. The relationship right there.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, exactly. It was right there the whole time. You know, guys, how were you the first guy to realize that there could be something Between a center. I'm sorry, I have the braid of a one year old. I literally would.

[Chuck Klosterman]

That would be good material for a one year old.

[Adam Friedland]

Okay. Going back to the DFW thing, though, you guys. I mean, he's from Champaign, Urbana. Right. You're from North Dakota. Right. Do you think coming from a place like you're from North Dakota, like, I never think of North Dakota. Does it make it easier for you to be an observer of culture?

[Podcast Announcer]

Right.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I'd say the main thing is it makes me in a better position to do criticism about mass culture because that was the only culture that gets to, like, a place where I was from. Yeah. You know, I mean, even. Yeah, I've mentioned this before, but, like, you know, like that John Cougar Mellencamp song, like, Small Town. I assumed he was talking about, like, my town with like 500 people. Turns out he's talking about, like, Bloomington, Indiana, which to me would have seemed like a big place. Like, I. Like, I didn't recognize how bizarre where I came from was to most of the country until. Particularly until I moved to New York. And I would be talking about my hometown, and people would ask me questions like, did you grow up in Russia? Did you grow up in the Depression?

[Adam Friedland]

Like, that's in America, actually. Those people are idiots.

[Chuck Klosterman]

What? What?

[Adam Friedland]

Dakota? The people that think that's Russia.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, it would be more the description of what, like, I would describe, like, how a wedding would work in our town and people would be like. That would seem like something that you would read in a Russian novel.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Like the entire town get to go to the reception and they would drive the fire trucks out of the fire hall. That's where the dance was. The families supplied all the booze and the sandwiches, and anyone could come. It was just a totally different thing.

[Adam Friedland]

Did you say the first and the name like a Russian novel? Were you like Bob. Like Bob Lundrigan? Like, you know how they say.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I mean, some people just go by both names. I feel like you're somebody. I feel like people refer to you by both your names. And sometimes people just refer to me by my first name, which is, I always think, surprising people who don't know me. Yeah, they just.

[Adam Friedland]

People say Adam Friedland to me.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah. That's how I mean I would. If I said just your last name to someone that was going on your podcast, I'm not sure they would know who it was. And if I said both names, they usually do. Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Is that good?

[Chuck Klosterman]

I don't know. Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

You're one of My heroes now. And you're. Now you're making me self conscious.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Why would be. You see. Be self conscious about that, Noel?

[Adam Friedland]

I know what it's like.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Why would that make you.

[Adam Friedland]

I know, right? What it's like where you grew up. Dude, you do? Yeah. There's a guy, obviously, that's in Minneapolis and he works at a car like, dealership. Right. That his father in law owns. Right. And he's been, you know, am I onto something here?

[Chuck Klosterman]

You know, a guy in Minneapolis?

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

And are you describing the plot of Fargo or something?

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Okay.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. So you grew up playing football though, right?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Mm.

[Adam Friedland]

Was it because they were just there? You were just one of the. There was not enough.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I mean, in truth, were you.

[Adam Friedland]

Wearing glasses under the helmet?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Contacts then?

[Adam Friedland]

Contacts.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I wore contacts in high school.

[Adam Friedland]

Because you were a popular kid.

[Chuck Klosterman]

There's 23 kids in my class. So it was like the difference between the most popular kid and the least popular kid was not that big of a chasm. So that's what.

[Adam Friedland]

So like, girls had to play football too?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Not. No, no girls. Because in North Dakota, girls basketball happened during the fall. They happened at the same time those seasons really. But also it was the 80s, so.

[Adam Friedland]

No one had tried nine.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Correct. We played nine, man. Yeah, right.

[Adam Friedland]

Because. Why? Because it wasn't enough. Guys.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah. I mean, that's like in small. In some states, you know, like in Texas they have six man. In Wyoming they play eight man. These are. If you're. But we played nine man. So it's like on offense you remove the offensive tackles. On defense, you remove the cornerbacks. And then you try to play football as close to the conventional way with those, you know, and then all the teams use two tight ends, basically. So it's still a five man line. If you were watching a nine man game, you probably. It would take you a while, I think, before you realize there's something wrong here.

[Adam Friedland]

Like, you know, did like, kids try to go Brett Favre, Lambeau, no sleeve sometimes?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

I mean, it had to suck.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, it was cold, sure. Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Did you have those like, heat blaster things?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Are you kidding me?

[Adam Friedland]

You didn't have. What the hell are you doing out there? Your parents let you.

[Chuck Klosterman]

What do you mean?

[Adam Friedland]

I don't want you out there with the. In the cold like that.

[Chuck Klosterman]

That's not how it was where I grew up. That was not there. There was. I can't remember. I mean, we. I remember that like they would. They canceled school for two days one time because the wind chill was gonna be 85 below. So they canceled school on Thursday and Friday. And almost everybody was upset. Every parent was upset. All the teachers were upset. Some of the kids were like, this is crazy. And then we still played our basketball game that weekend. Like, we still came into town for that, you know?

[Adam Friedland]

Wait, so wait, because everyone loved school so much?

[Chuck Klosterman]

No, it was just the idea. It was. It wasn't that we loved school. School, but it just. It seemed absurd.

[Adam Friedland]

Why didn't you even move to Arizona? This is ridiculous. You people up there.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, that's a. You know, it's ridiculous.

[Adam Friedland]

And they have two senators. It's like, don't get me started on North Dakota.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Are you one of the. You want to abolish the Senate guy?

[Adam Friedland]

I mean, it doesn't make sense. I didn't mean to bring that up, but, yeah, it doesn't make sense.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, it doesn't depend how you look at it. I mean.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, I mean, like, God forbid we, like, let, like, I don't know, like, like minorities vote or something. That's what the Senate is there for.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, it just regard. Well, okay, well, let's talk about sports, brother.

[Adam Friedland]

Let's talk about sports. Okay. Yeah, but you were on a farm. You had youngest of seven siblings, correct? Really? What kind of farm was it? A snow farm?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yes, we raised snow by the bushel, you know, for snow cones. Yeah, well, when I was. When I was a real little guy, it was like wheat. And we had dairy cattle. Then we got rid of the dairy cattle right before that became lucrative and went into beef cattle and did that until that got. And just before that got lucrative, we sold all those. My dad wasn't always the greatest businessman, and by the end, it was just what was considered row crops. Corn, beans, things that are grown in a row. And we didn't have animals anymore. And then my brother took over the farm, and then now he's retired, and now it's. We don't. It's out of the hands, out of the family. We sold the farm.

[Adam Friedland]

You guys sold the farm?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yep. Sold the farm.

[Adam Friedland]

How did it feel to sell the farm?

[Chuck Klosterman]

It's time.

[Adam Friedland]

It was time to sell the farm. I remember my family, too, when they.

[Chuck Klosterman]

When you sold the farm?

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, we sold the farm.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Were you. You said you're from the Southwest? Yeah, like New Mexico. You're from Las. Actually from Las Vegas. I grew up.

[Adam Friedland]

I grew up in. Yeah, we moved there when I was, like, first grade.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah, but, like, your postal address was Las Vegas.

[Adam Friedland]

Las Vegas, Nevada. Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

What was that like, you and Jimmy boy Boring. Boring. Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, it was. Well, a. It was like the fastest growing city in America at the time. Like, white flight America. So everyone was from somewhere else. Tract housing kind of like, looked like that show Weeds. Have you seen the show Weeds? All the houses look the same.

[Chuck Klosterman]

So were you there, like, during, like, the UNLV basketball period or was that.

[Adam Friedland]

I was there. The Tark years were, like. Right. Like, I guess. But as we were moving there, like, maybe right before. Yeah, Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I mean, like, our age difference.

[Adam Friedland]

I was there for Sean Marion. Sean Marion. So, yeah, I used to. I used to go watch UNLV because.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Like, if we're just talking, it feels like we're the same age. But talk about the past, it won't be that way.

[Adam Friedland]

Well, I mean, we're. I mean, we're both old souls, you know, we love Rootin Tootin football. We love, you know. No, I guess it. Yeah, that was like. I guess to segue, I think, to put in context, like, if we were, like, talking about things happening right now. The national championship is happening tonight.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Tonight, yes.

[Adam Friedland]

Are you excited? You're excited? You're like. And John Cougar Mellencamp, he'll be more excited than me.

[Chuck Klosterman]

He has a little place to watch the games at Indiana Stadium. His own little cabin on top of the stadium.

[Adam Friedland]

So historically, we have this team, Indiana, which was historically just. They're supposed to lose.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Historically the worst program in college football history over the last.

[Adam Friedland]

It's kind of a tradition as it is that, like, you know, LSU is good or something, or, like, you know.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Ohio State is good, but even more so because, like, you know, Alabama and these schools, Texas, they have down years. There was no up years for Indiana at any point. Yeah, you know, I mean, they had years where they weren't terrible. That was the highest they ever ascended to.

[Adam Friedland]

And so I'll let you run with it. But, like, how would you characterize their rise in the last two years? Like, and related to the nil, of course, and the transfer portal and, like, what.

[Chuck Klosterman]

You know, when that all came into being, when the NIL stuff happened and the portal stuff happened, I think everybody who followed college football was like, well, it's, you know, some team that we've never really expected to be dominant is going to take advantage of this and rise up. And I think people thought like, oh, maybe it'll be a school like Liberty, or maybe it'll be, you know. You know, it'll be a school like Oregon or have been good or whatever. No one thought it would be Indiana. I Mean, their coach just understands this stuff more deftly than anybody else. He's a good coach anyways. He would be a good coach in the old style, but he's really great at this. I mean, he just, you know, he came from James Madison and he took the best guys from there. He built that pro, you know, that was a, like a sub division program and they moved up and then he brought them all over. He just really knows what he's doing and he somehow is able to be both things. Like he's both like this very modern, sophisticated evaluator of talent who understands that everything has changed. But he seems to coach the guys in the traditional.

[Adam Friedland]

Bob Knight, like tough, maybe Brian.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah, maybe. Maybe not to that level, but close. Yes. I mean, Nick Saban, I mean, he came from that coaching tree.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. And, and correct me if I'm wrong, like, this is. Tonight we're going to see some like 23, 24 year olds.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I think the average age for the, for Indiana is like 23 and a half.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Let's get into your book and we're going to go back to like the nil and the college stuff and like your book posits that probably in 50 years, you don't think football will be a relic. It won't be extinct. It'll kind of be like, I don't know, marching band music. It'll be like John Philip Sousa. Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yes.

[Adam Friedland]

It'll be like something from the olden days. Right. Like.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I, I have a suspicion that it will be like a niche interest. Yes. It won't be the same, like right now, like, everyone's like, there's no more monoc. Except for football and Taylor Swift. And I think in 50 or 60 years, I don't think even football will have that role. I don't think it's possible.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I mean, and I know it seems crazy, like everybody, I, when I get interviewed for this book, everybody wants to talk about that last chapter. And I understand why, because it seems extremely counterintuitive. It seems more likely that football would actually swallow up every other sport in America and it would be the only sport anyone cares about. But I don't think that's. I don't think it'll happen. I mean, I'll be dead. I'll never be able to be proven wrong if I am.

[Adam Friedland]

But, you know, so right now, 2026.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It'S incredibly popular, like the most popular thing.

[Adam Friedland]

You cite this statistic that 93 of the top 100, like highest rated programs was it last year 20.

[Chuck Klosterman]

23.

[Adam Friedland]

23.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It went down a little bit in 2024 because of the election, but still, it was. It was still in the, I believe in the high 80s or 90s.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

What?

[Adam Friedland]

And then there were like, four more.

[Chuck Klosterman]

That were college games.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. So one thing that kind of made me realize is, like, probably it's. It's a product of how we consume content these days. Like. Like the Survivor finale probably would have been on that list, like, 25 years ago. Right. There's no live. There's no live.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Oh, you're saying like the. The first season of Survivor. Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Like. Or like the, you know, like the. The. The American Idol finale. Like, you know.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

There are no events anymore other than kind of football. Right. Like, those. These are the things that we consume live still. We'll, like, go on streaming and we'll binge like a show or something. But, like, these are the things that, like, collectively, Americans will sit down and watch together. Yes.

[Chuck Klosterman]

But even, like, when you look at other countries, you would think that there would be kind of a similar phenomenon. And it's not this dramatic. It's just. It is like the dominance of football in the United States now is. It's like. It's actually like an underrated phenomenon. It defies logic in so many ways.

[Adam Friedland]

You know, it's interesting because I remember 10 years ago, in the last 10 years, there were a couple moments where I'm like, this just isn't going to, like, continue. And first was the concussion, like, thing. But I mean, we've seen shocking things happen. Like, you see Sandy Hook happen, and then they don't ban guns. Like, we saw Junior Sayout. For me, like, when I was a kid, I used to get SI for kids. And I remember, like, the two. The two, like, guys that would always be in SI for kids were Grant Hill and Junior Sayout. Right.

[Chuck Klosterman]

SI for kids really cared about the NFL man of the year. Yeah. That was bigger than the MVP man, because it was like, oh, look, it's a good person as well. You know, that's. I mean, there was a guy for the Bears who committed suicide and he shot himself in the chest. And he specifically left a note like, so you can study my brain.

[Adam Friedland]

Well, I thought Junior SEO did that as well.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, he killed himself. He killed himself.

[Adam Friedland]

But I think it's. I think he did the same thing.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I mean, it's. They. They were able to look at it. I think they were. I don't know. Actually, I'm not going to know. I don't know. I didn't see the autopsy.

[Adam Friedland]

And then we got Joe Von Belcher. Like, we've. We've had these shocking events happen. And I'm like, this cannot continue.

[Chuck Klosterman]

But that conversation was much more prevalent 10 years ago than it is now.

[Adam Friedland]

Exactly.

[Chuck Klosterman]

And part of the reason, I mean, the NFL did something very brilliant, I guess, arguably diabolicals. Anytime there was somebody who came out and it was like, I'm a scientist. I have troubling, you know, information about this. They were like, we're gonna hire you to help. You know, so that was like, that's the smartest thing.

[Adam Friedland]

Like an oil company.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yes.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. And then also the other thing I want to bring up was Kaepernick. I remember I was like, this is terrible PR for the NFL. Like, you know, this doesn't look good that we saw this guy in the. In the fucking Super Bowl.

[Chuck Klosterman]

And I know. I totally agree with you when you say it's like bad pr, but this is also what sort of sets football apart from all these other things, is that people actually care about the thing about, you know, like, bad PR for baseball and hockey and NBA. That is meaningful. It doesn't really matter what happens in the world outside football coverage, because people actually care about the product. You know, whenever people talk about sports in general and, you know, they're saying like, well, you know, the NBA, they're really great at sort of marketing these guys. And you can see them and like, you know, like, the 20 most famous NBA guys are certainly more famous than the 20 most famous non quarterbacks.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

You know, and, you know, in baseball, they're like, you know, can we get Ohtani to be a personality? But that's a mistake. It's a mistake to build your thing around the individual, because feelings about them change, and the individuals change football by having this almost faceless automaton world where we're just like watching this simulation of warfare or whatever with just clash of colors. That's what people like. And that's why it doesn't really. All these other things don't damage it the way they would damage other. Like, like, you know, boxing was damaged by its. By the perception of violence to it. Football was not damaged by the perception of violence in it.

[Adam Friedland]

It's kind of bullshit like that. They have analysts that are offensive linemen. Right. I said this to Nick Wright, like, I don't want to see you unless you really did awesome things like sacks.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Now, why would you. Why would you say that?

[Adam Friedland]

I don't care what Jeff Saturday has to say about a game, but I would see some guy that just like, you know, used to slang it, used to dunk.

[Chuck Klosterman]

So Gary Danielson was a great analyst for a bunch of years.

[Adam Friedland]

Don't care.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah. So you'd rather see Tom Brady? You rarely see Tom Brady. Because he was better on. That makes no sense.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, Tom. Terrific. Of course. Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

But so, like, I don't care.

[Adam Friedland]

I don't want to see the big old guys. Maybe it's just they're not my taste. It's a taste thing.

[Chuck Klosterman]

But they're talking now. You're not looking.

[Adam Friedland]

Blah, blah, blah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Okay, how about Greg Olsen? You like Greg Olsen? He was tight end.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, he was. Because. Only because of that rap song he made at the University of Miami.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It's a good song. Well, it is. Added a new idea.

[Adam Friedland]

Ollie, have you heard that song, the 7th Floor Crew? Oh, my God. After the show, I'm gonna tell you. What did he call himself?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, let's look it up right now. Discusses his third leg. I believe in this.

[Adam Friedland]

It's very funny. He was. He used to rap with his teammates when he was at Miami. They got in big trouble. And then he said he got great by G Reg. Did he call himself?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Can't recall the exact.

[Adam Friedland]

I got a third leg. My name G Reg and I got a third leg.

[Podcast Announcer]

That's.

[Adam Friedland]

That's very interesting. Do you think the third leg helped him at the Carolina Panthers?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Made him a more charismatic, confident guy, I suppose, you know, and that probably transferred over into the field.

[Adam Friedland]

So let's zoom out again. But tell us the story of football. Just tell us, like. No, no, seriously.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I know, because it's this ridiculous thing.

[Adam Friedland]

Okay, first of all, here's how I see it. It's this ridiculous thing where you see these. First of all, they're mushing, right? And you can tell these guys are just mushing their heads, right? And you got the big guys mushing their heads. Then you have this whole, like, arcane set of, like, tort. Tort law, right?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Where, like, they have to go and, like, hyper complicated. Yes.

[Adam Friedland]

Read the fucking Federalist Papers to, like, understand, like, you know.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, that's good for them. Good to have a good. I mean, that's valuable. Did he break the plane?

[Adam Friedland]

And did he.

[Chuck Klosterman]

You know. Okay, how do you. How do you feel about this?

[Adam Friedland]

And then they have a chain. They literally have two flags and a chain that they have to bring out. And they have the guy come out on the chain.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Football of the physical world.

[Adam Friedland]

That's good, right? And then they have, you know.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Okay, so the origin like, okay, you know what the believed origin of football, American football is?

[Adam Friedland]

And it's a pig.

[Chuck Klosterman]

They're throwing a pig at each other. His skin.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

The belief that. It's hard to verify this, but the kind of. The kind of. The consensus about the origin of football was after the Civil War, there was this belief that young men were no longer gonna face conflict. They were not gonna be involved. Yes. And it was gonna soften society. So they were like, we need to find some surrogate for going to war and watching all your friends die or whatever. So they invent the sport of football. You know, they kind of create this game, and then it evolves sort of in a way, it evolves for, you know, 70 or 80 years, then kind of intersects with television, ends up becoming the thing that we think of now. Yeah, but that. I mean, that is kind of believed to be the origin of the game. That it literally was supposed to simulate the experience of going to war for young men.

[Adam Friedland]

And who is the first modern football player? You say Jim Thorpe, right?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, no, no. The first modern football player. That's a really hard question, because I suppose in some ways it was Jim Brown in terms of. He's probably the person. You can go back the first furthest and make a real argument that if we literally transported him.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Like just in a time machine or whatever, he might be able to still play. I mean, some ways, like Johnny Unitis and Sammy Baugh were the first sort of modern quarterbacks. But it's a hard question, because the modern version of football, I mean, like, no sport adopts technology and modernity as much. So the mo. It's much different than, say, baseball, where the way baseball was played by Babe Ruth actually is not. Totally unlike the way it's played now.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, yeah. And so in terms of, like, its popularity, like, how did that evolve over time, especially in the last 30 years?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, it was already the most popular sport in the country in the 70s, but it wasn't perceived that way because it was still like baseball's the national pastime. But already, by then, people cared about football more because of the television experience, you know, And, I mean, it's just. It's like almost the perfect marriage of these two things. Football is the ideal product to show on television. Nobody would. No one could have obviously anticipated that from football side or television side.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

And how much do you attribute, like.

[Adam Friedland]

It'S like, success on television to Cletus?

[Chuck Klosterman]

What?

[Adam Friedland]

Cletus.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Cletus.

[Adam Friedland]

He's the robot that plays electric guitar.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Oh, yeah. Well, I think that. I think that widened sort of its popularity among mechanical prog rock fans.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

And there was a segment of the audience that was maybe underserved.

[Adam Friedland]

Who at Fox came up with that?

[Chuck Klosterman]

I don't know.

[Adam Friedland]

The CGI Electric. Because it's awesome when you.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah, it obviously worked. I mean, you know his name. It's like.

[Adam Friedland]

How do you.

[Chuck Klosterman]

How do you know his name?

[Adam Friedland]

Because I like sports.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah, I know, but how do you. Where did it. Where is that? I mean, I like sports, but I.

[Adam Friedland]

See him getting defensive. He wrote a book.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I know. I know. This is gonna be. It's like, I am. That's right. You're tired.

[Adam Friedland]

You could have consulted with me. You should have had a hold of me.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I thought you were talking about the Simpsons character for a second.

[Adam Friedland]

I believe his name is Cletus. And if his name isn't Cletus, I'm going to be really embarrassed because someone looked that up. It's Cletus.

[Chuck Klosterman]

You got a fast team here.

[Adam Friedland]

Dude dominated once again. Yeah. Flip that.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yes.

[Adam Friedland]

Clip that. Put that on. Put that on. Sales are going down to zero, Penguin. By the way, it was this proliferation on television, right? Like, TV rights deals kind of like proliferated football in a way that, like.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, yes. I mean, but also, you know, football is different in the sense that they have this real strict salary cap and no guaranteed contract. So as the money is inflated in all these sports, football has been able to almost benefit more because they don't have to pay as much to the talent.

[Adam Friedland]

It seems kind of satanic a little bit. No.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I mean, yeah, you're mushing your.

[Adam Friedland]

Brain for two seasons, and then you shoot yourself in the chest.

[Chuck Klosterman]

But at the same time, the NFL is probably the greatest example of successful socialism in the United States. So you should be into that.

[Adam Friedland]

Is it so?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I mean, they do all revenue sharing there. You know, they. They sort of invented that. Pete Roselle said, we're going to do this, we're going to do this. And none of the big markets wanted to do it. And he's like, it's going to happen.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

And that's why every six years or eight years or whatever it is, the likelihood that some random franchise will be good again keeps happening, you know, but.

[Adam Friedland]

Like, it's not fair if you sign a contract and then, like, they're like, oh, it's over. You mushed your brain too much.

[Chuck Klosterman]

So what would be fair? I'm not saying I disagree with you.

[Adam Friedland]

The company that's making the most money kind of like, there's remuneration for mushing your brain. Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, if you're saying that the NFL should definitely pay for the guys for cti. Sure, sure.

[Adam Friedland]

Contract that you've signed.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yes, yes.

[Adam Friedland]

I mean, I think it's cool that Bobby Bonilla gets a million dollars every year. I just, like.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It is a cool fact. Everyone loves to mention that. That comes up every year.

[Adam Friedland]

I think it's cool. Yeah. I just think, like, fuck the mess, Whatever. Give him a million dollars. Yeah. I guess it's like, there is an aspect about how it's better on tv. Like, baseball is a sport that's better live.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, it can be both.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

If you're at a nice ballpark on a nice day, it absolutely is better live. There's no question. But sometimes it's not. If you. Sometimes it's, you know, especially the way they've changed the way baseball is broadcast now. It is become, again, a good thing to watch on tv. I mean, like, basketball games. If you're courtside, it's awesome. If you're in the rafters, it's bad. The best shot, actually, the best place to sit is really where the camera is for the show.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Hockey's better live. That's the only sport that is obviously better live.

[Adam Friedland]

You can't follow the fucking puck when you're watching on tv.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Also, you can't. Most. Most sports try to, like, transfer the live experience to television, and you can't transfer the feeling of guys like hitting the plexiglass glass. But football doesn't try to do that. The live experience of watching football and the televised experience have no relationship.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. American culture is awesome. If you go to the middle of nowhere, people know who Mickey Mouse is. American monoculture has proliferated. If you listen to the Rolling Stones, Mick's singing in an American accent, right?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah, for sure.

[Adam Friedland]

We're so powerful, especially in the 20th century onwards, as a cultural exporter. Why is this the one thing that it's such an outlier? Because it's the one thing that hasn't proliferated yet. Somehow it's the most fucking popular thing that we have going on here.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I mean, that's actually a really good question. You know, I think it probably is that football is almost, as you stated, unnecessarily complex. Right. It's a hard thing. Like, you can't just get 22 guys together and play a football game. Like, you can, but it's not gonna be anything like what football actually is. It took basketball a long time. And if it hadn't been for, you know, the, you know, the original Dream Team, I think that a lot of these countries would still be probably 40 years behind us in basketball. It takes a long time for people to watch a sport, implement it, and also implement it for kids because, you know, football really isn't a great game to suddenly start playing when you're 19 and you need that kind of infrastructure. And I also think that, I think probably, you know, it's popular in Germany. I.

[Adam Friedland]

Not really.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I mean, not the Rhine Fire, but what I'm saying is I.

[Adam Friedland]

Do they still have NFL Europe?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I don't think. No.

[Adam Friedland]

The London Dragons.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yes. Or the Barcelona Dragons.

[Adam Friedland]

The Barcelona Dragons, yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I taught a semester of school in Leipzig, Germany in like 2008, and I was surprised how much awareness of American football was there. But you know, at the same time I think that, you know, when people, you say how American culture is just wonderful thing and you know, as Americans we can feel that way. But I think for a lot of other countries, they see it as sort of oppressive and football represents like the one thing they were able to stave off. Like I, I remember when I was teaching this class and all the kids were always like, America has no culture. That was their big thing. And I'd be like, well, all you guys love hip hop. And they're like, well, that's an immigrant culture. And I was like, well, not really.

[Adam Friedland]

Like, you know, it's not immigrant.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I just thought it was a very funny perception of what they thought of hip hop as well.

[Adam Friedland]

They were immigrants 400 years ago during the slave trade. But yeah, no, I, I guess it's. Yeah, but it is, it is weird.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Isn'T it like surprising.

[Adam Friedland]

It's surprising. It's like, why are the Beatles like.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, we're from England.

[Adam Friedland]

No, no, but like, why are the Beatles like hearing old rock and roll records, right?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Like Chuck Berry records.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, yeah. Or like Muddy Waters records.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

And then giving us back our culture in like a new exciting way. Like that's. That cultural exchange has always been like fascinating. Why are you going to Tokyo? And there you see, see American culture everywhere. But it's like they've advanced it and like, you know, just fashion wise or whatever, like they've taken our culture and they're obsessed with our culture and then they've enhanced it.

[Chuck Klosterman]

You feel that way about film? Do you feel that the best films are now made outside of the United States?

[Adam Friedland]

No, I'm not that kind of guy. No, no. There are great films made outside of The United States. But I. I don't.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I. I think because rock music is the clearest example, and there are other examples, you know, of it.

[Adam Friedland]

Can you describe kind of like briefly, like, how you see the decline working in the next 50 years?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah, I mean, it's hard to do briefly because, like, obviously it's a long section of that book. And if I just read. But if I describe it briefly, it's going to seem like too simple. But, like, I think that there's going to be this kind of. This cultural shift where people have less of an interpersonal relationship to football outside of it as an entertainment. Like a distracting kind of entertainment. Like, they won't have played. Their father won't have played, maybe even their grandfather. Maybe they didn't know anyone in high school who was on the football team or whatever. They just see it as this thing that's on Saturdays and Sundays and Monday night and Thursday, and they watch it sort of to kill time. So they'll still like it. It will still be very popular because it's kind of a tautological thing. Now. Football is what you watch on Sunday, so that. That's what you do on Sunday, but it won't mean as much. And I think that the economics of advertising are going to change in 50 or 60 years. And suddenly these huge deals that it's not they're going to disappear entirely, but these huge deals that Fox gives or Amazon prime gives or whatever, the number won't go up. The number will either stay the same or go down at some new contract. But the players are being like, we're not going to take a reduction in salary. The league will be like, what are we going to do? Go to 22 games. There'll be. This year, there'll be a big work stoppage. And what will be different about this future work stoppage is that people won't miss it the way they would now. I mean, There were strikes, NFL strikes in the 1980s, and people were very, you know, they cared a lot. They like, we gotta get these games back. If that happened now, it would be like a catastrophe. People would be like, what am I gonna bet on? What's my life like now? But I don't think, like the, like, two generations removed. I don't think that relationship will still exist. It'll still be this popular thing, but a distraction can be replaced. And football, it's like, it's not one of these things, like, where it's like, it's too big to fail, like, it's too big to stop. Covid was a great example of this. When they had to play those games, like, that's when you really recognize, like, Major League Baseball and the NBA had to go to the bubble and all these things. These leagues could not. Like, they kind of tried to position it almost as if, well, you know, people are stuck at home. They, the fans need this, we need this. But that wasn't. I mean, like, the Big Ten was not having classes, but they were still having their football games. They had to do it. And that showed the fragility. As the culture changes, it's the big things that can adjust. The small things are flexible.

[Adam Friedland]

What games were you getting in the 80s? I wasn't alive. Were you getting 1:00pm, 4:00pm and then.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Okay, first of all, it was college football. There was one game a week, which was bizarre, sometimes two, but usually just there would be one game on Saturday.

[Adam Friedland]

The last time there was a work stoppage. I mean, like.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Oh, during the work stoppage.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Was.

[Adam Friedland]

There was.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I would.

[Adam Friedland]

Was there that 10 hours?

[Chuck Klosterman]

No, no, no, no.

[Adam Friedland]

You didn't have that.

[Chuck Klosterman]

There was. There was. Most of the teams played at. I guess It'd be like 1 o' clock Eastern, 12 Central or whatever. Yeah, there'd be a few sort of national games at, for me, three o', clock, usually the Cowboys. It was an AFC game. It would be like the Broncos or a West coast team. There'd be the Monday night game. There would be a cage. There'd be games on Thanksgiving and the occasional Thursday. But like, for me as a kid in the 80s, I would watch, you know, the Vikings were the local team. I'd then watch the national game and then I get to see half of the Monday night game and then have to go to bed.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

You know, so everything was like. It was a. And, you know, strange thing. It was like, now there's almost this assumption that if you say you're a football fan, you're supposed to have watched every game. You're supposed to have, like, seen everything and know everything that's going on. That pressure wasn't. Didn't even exist for journalists. Like, it used to always be a big controversy, that like, somebody would win the Heisman Trophy and they'd be like, well, it should have been a guy from the Pac 10 or the Pac 12. But none of these media guys watch the Pac 12 game. It's too late or whatever. Like that. That'd be unthinkable now. It would be unthinkable for someone to say, well, I voted for the Heisman and I voted for a guy, you know, from Florida because, like, I can't stay up for those west coast games. But that was, that was a totally normal thing. That conversation came up anytime. Like, you know, like Herschel Walker won the Heisman over John Elway. Many people said it was because, well, nobody sees Stanford play. They play. So, you know what I'm saying?

[Adam Friedland]

The same thing has happened actually in soccer. Like TV rights deals have expanded. There's something called Match of the Day in England where the only way you could watch like every team highlights was there was this one program on the BBC. You would usually just get one game. You couldn't get games in Italy. You couldn't watch games on the continent. In fact, like the old Arsenal, I'm an Arsenal fan, like their old manager, George Graham, in order to like scout players would have. He would get every newspaper from around the country and he would read and say, oh, this guy that's up in at Leeds is like, he's young and he's good. And then they'd sign them based on like just. Just reading the local beat writers, right? Like there wasn't like video scouting even back in the day.

[Chuck Klosterman]

But I mean, there was, there was also a higher trust society. They trusted those guys way more than they would now. You would never do that. You would never make a decision now based on media reports of a guy's talent, right?

[Podcast Announcer]

So.

[Adam Friedland]

So in the Premier League, like I watched. I watched soccer. And we get it before basically football starts on. On a Sunday or Saturday morning also before college starts. And that's basically how it is. There are three blocks of time primarily blocked out in the same way as it is. And if anything, it's better for television because it's a kind of a dedicated amount of time. Like it doesn't actually, like you don't have overtime.

[Chuck Klosterman]

To me, the biggest upside soccer has, yeah, if you start watching a game, no one's gonna say, like, I'll meet you at the bar at this time. You're gonna be able to make it.

[Adam Friedland]

The wife won't be kill you.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I was a little too kid. Like in the late 70s and early 80s, the only way to watch sea soccer was on PBS. PBS on like Friday and Saturday night would sometimes show like a Premier League. I mean, it was. I remember me and my sister thought it was hilarious. It was the first time we ever heard nil, meaning zero. You know, so we would say that, but it was like, you know, but that was. That's how sort of arcane seemed at the time. It'd be something you'd see like Masterpiece Theater upstairs, downstairs, and Premier League Soccer.

[Adam Friedland]

But functionally, like, there's this aspect of the weekend, right? Like in their society, the British underclass, and they actually, when the queen died, they canceled the games that weekend, and it was like, there was a big uproar because it's like, we go to the football, right? That's what they say, the football. Like, you work your ass off during the week, you're fucking miserable, and then you go to the football, right? Now, you know, they could watch games, like, all day in the way that we can on Saturday watch the college games. And on Sunday, you know, you could, like, have a crappy week, and you could be like, this is what I do on Saturday and Sunday. I sit on my couch, I drink beer, I watch football. There's a. There's a demand for that content to fill that aspect of people's time.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Oh, it is, right?

[Adam Friedland]

So, like. So when I'm thinking about the decline of football, I'm like, what are they going to do?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Like, if that happened now? Absolutely. I think two generations removed, I don't think that person will exist in the same way. Just the thing you say about drinking beer, it's shocking to me, the statistics of, like, how, like a senior in high school and likely just never drank in their life. I think that part of life is going. It's just going away now. It may come back, certainly enough time, you know, things wax and wane or whatever. But it is. It is hard to think about the future of a sport without kind of projecting the present on it in the same way. It's hard to think of the past without projecting the present on. It's human nature to do that.

[Adam Friedland]

I don't think our populace possesses the capacity to throw a brick sometimes, and I think it's because there's too much Mandalorian, you know what I mean? Or there's this all day on Sunday, right? And it's just like. Just like things can be falling apart outside, but, like, we're gonna want to sit down and just like, watch this crap.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I think I totally agree with you, although I think for a slightly different reason, I think that, like, you know, maybe we're saying the same thing, but like a. A bad sort of dead end. Life in America is still not necessarily a terrible life to experience because there are so many ways to find meaning within that. Like, even if. I mean, the Mandalorian's an interesting item, but, yeah, possibly like that. Like something like that. The idea, you know, I mean, like, what you're saying about football in that way, like, that's different. That's like a Noam Chomsky argument that basically that these things are. That this is a way to basically to sedate the populace and to have them feel as though that there's something meaningful in their life and they won't think about things that are actually meaningful. Of course I've thought about that. I mean, I write about it a little in the book, but I also.

[Adam Friedland]

Think it's meaningful to us. I mean.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah, that's meaningful to us. You can't. It's one thing that you see, especially in sort of like the social media world, is sort of this idea that, like, well, you shouldn't care about anything. If I can point out something that's a more important thing, that somehow you are free, morally failing if you have an investment in this thing, that when these other things are happening that matter so much more. But of course, if you shift those things, there's still a person who's going to find the next thing. It's like, well, yeah, but. Yeah, but the climate, you know, it's like. I just think that that is a kind of an idiotic.

[Adam Friedland]

I'm not saying that we should.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah, I know. I know you. I'm not in any way saying. You said. I'm saying this is something that I kind of think about. Like, you know, sort of. At what point do you have to weigh your actual individual experience against what is happening in the world and how much you're supposed to devote your thinking toward that?

[Adam Friedland]

Beyond, like, saying, like, this is an opiate of the masses. It's a way that we can kind of cope with reality, you know, in a large way. Like, I think about Arsenal all week long. I think about our fucking starting 11 against Nottingham Forest all week long at a time. I'm a loser. I feel like a loser that I care, but I fucking do care, you know?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I mean, you say it's a way to cope with reality. I mean, sports are part of reality. Yeah, granted. What's happening on the field, on the court.

[Adam Friedland]

Reality.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, no, the hard reality, like, it's happening. It's part of the world, too. Like, what's happening on the field is a simulation of things. There is an unreality to what's really going on. The stakes are completely fabricated. Like, you know, one thing that's really interesting is. And I'm like anybody else, right? It's hard for me to sit through a preseason NFL football game. Doesn't Seem like it means anything. None of them mean anything. No one's gonna die. But yet. But if you win the super bowl.

[Adam Friedland]

They play the next year, right?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Exactly. It's still like every, every. Every game, every sporting event's an exhibition. They're all exhibitions. They're exhibition. Now we impose these meaning onto them. And I am like, it's not like I'm beyond this. I feel the same way. You know, it's like I traveling for this book tour, I was missing some of these football games. I was like, ah, I hate missing them or whatever. But, you know, I wouldn't feel that way if I was traveling at the end of August and I was missing the hall of Fame game. I would have never occurred to me. It's like, oh, my God, I'm missing out. But yet there are actually more. There's more similarities between those two things in a macro way than there is a difference.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying. You don't talk about, like, what could potentially replace it very much.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah, I don't think anything would replace. I think that. That, you know, I hate always just saying monoculture. Monoculture. But, you know, I was. Interesting deal. Like, so I'm sure you know this. Like, so what's the highest rated television program of all time?

[Adam Friedland]

A super.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I mean, saying like a. Like a broadcast show.

[Adam Friedland]

Oh, mash.

[Chuck Klosterman]

The last episode of mash. So. And that will never ever be beat. Like everyone has said, statistically, because of the proliferation of cable and the way things work, there will never be an audience for a television show like that again. And yet what were they talking about when that show was on? They were like, the monoculture's over. We have cable television now.

[Adam Friedland]

News.

[Chuck Klosterman]

You know, USA Today is making like all these. The exact. A very similar argument was being made at what we now consider to be the apex of the Monica. So I think that it's just a continual erosion of that, of this shared. I mean, you know, there's so many things, and I sound like a thousand years old, but like, things like Johnny Carson. There was meaning to that in the sense that even people who did not care about the Tonight show or watch it knew that that's what was on and that's what he was like. And all these things. And those things are just not going to be part of life. I mean, that's just. That's done.

[Adam Friedland]

I want to. We were talking before the show about Soc. I'm a big soccer fan. For me, football, kind of like the tuck game. I remember when I Was a kid. I'm a Raider fan, and probably part of me, my waning interest in football. I have a friend who's a Bills fan, so I'll watch with him. And I love Joshy. And it breaks my heart what they go through, especially like, kind of from supporting this team, Arsenal. I've never seen them win the league in 22 years.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Do you like the book Fever Pitch?

[Adam Friedland]

I. No, I. I like the movie with Jimmy Fallon about the Red Sox.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Really?

[Adam Friedland]

Okay.

[Chuck Klosterman]

No, no.

[Adam Friedland]

But, yeah, I know Nick Hornsby was an Arsenal fan, but they are this fucking team that, like, it's. They say it's the hope that kills you. And it's kind of. There's a lot of. It's very Billsy. But like, for me, the tuck game, I was like, it just wasn't fair. And it was like, you know, Charles Woodson had that strip and like, it was just like. It's just like. It broke my heart. And I was like, well, this. I loved those Raiders teams. I love like the. The. The West. The rich can. Rich Gannon west coast offense. Like Jerry.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Jerry Green era. That's Jerry.

[Adam Friedland]

Jerry Rice's last ride. Like. Like, that team, like, Gannon would go, like, he'd go like 51 for 63. Do you remember, like, all those.

[Chuck Klosterman]

You know, he had been. He'd been with the Vikings, and he was always like, ah, well, this guy, he's never. But when it was the end of his career, he sort of became this different person.

[Adam Friedland]

There was something really lovable about that team. But beyond that, like, I watch soccer now, and part of it is as a product, you know, much is made about that statistic. About 11 minutes of actual action within the four hours of an NFL game. But, like, there is 2:45 minutes of just flow. There's no commercials, right? Like, I. I hate commercials. You could just sit there and watch the one thing. It's not interrupted. And like, in terms of gameplay, it's just. I feel like it's the best. Even in the NBA, the last two minutes of a NBA game, like with the fouls and like free throws, it's just like there is. The game kind of stuff slows down. If anything, football has the best last two minutes, I think.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I mean, my argument is basically that, you know, there are kind of three kinds of sports. There's one that are kind of almost these non stop mesmerizing hypnotic sports. Soccer, basketball, boxing to some degree, auto racing. Then there's these very cerebral sports like baseball and golf, where almost all of the importance is based on what will happen, what just happened, what could happen later. Like the action is just a very small part of it and it's all kind of prologue to the end.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

And then the third one is football, which is a cerebral game in the sense that there are all these stops and all this sort of, you know, it's like. But the moments of action are so hyperkinetic and violent that it creates almost the illusion or maybe just I guess the sensation of real intensity and a real kind of dynamic thing. So I mean like the idea that there's only 11 minutes of action in a three hour football game, that's always used like as a criticism of football. But 11 minutes is the right amount. It's like the perfect for the way I think people. And this is like a weird thing to say that I can, I can't get in other people's brains. But I think what people say they want from entertainment and what they actually do are very different. I think that the way our mind works actually it kind of contradicts what we want would say consciously is our desire.

[Adam Friedland]

Going back to the soccer point, one thing that I found is really special is that there is a different talent development system.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah. You were saying that was interesting.

[Adam Friedland]

Youth academies. So like when a player plays in a youth academy and then breaks through into a first team, it's almost as if it's like they are. It's a fan stream. Right. Because they've been playing with Arsenal, have guys that were there when they were nine years old. Right. And the cool thing is when they're playing like the under 15s, they're playing the under 13s or whatever, they're wearing the same uniforms as the guys in the big stadium.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

And you could tell that there's, there's something that means so much. Like no one's in the Jacksonville Jaguars youth academy. Right. No one's like dreaming for the time that they're 10 years old of like playing on the, the Jags.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I mean like I guess a kid go. Who goes to junior high in Jacksonville, you know, and.

[Adam Friedland]

But then they get drafted in Buffalo, right.

[Chuck Klosterman]

They have no. Yes. They can't enter the.

[Adam Friedland]

Right.

[Chuck Klosterman]

The pipeline.

[Adam Friedland]

And. And then there are other stories of like kids that have been cut from academies. Like there's this guy on Arsenal right now was cut when he was I think 14 years old and he worked his entire career to get back to Arsenal. Now he's. They. We just signed him again. He's 25 years old I think now. And There is, like, there's a romance in that where you could, like, members that. We're all members of the club, right. Then we have a board of directors, we have a manager, and then we have our first team. Right. And there's a sensation of, like, when someone comes through an academy and has been there for a long time, and their family has made sacrifices to drive them two hours to. To training every day when they were, like a little kid because of a dream of the family. There's, like, an assumption of. That they're one of our own. Right. Kobe Bryant was my favorite basketball player because he was with the Lakers for 20 years. He felt like one of our own. And in American professional sports, we kind of don't have that, like, romance, I think.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, it's really interesting because the way you describe it does sound very romantic. Now, you could describe it in the exact same terms, and some would say, like, so you like the corporate nature of these soccer factories. I mean, what is interesting that. What you say, though, is that particularly, you know, like, in the Northeast, here in the Pacific Northwest, there's a lot of places where increasingly, I think there's a lot of pressure on parents to not let their kids play football.

[Podcast Announcer]

Right.

[Chuck Klosterman]

And now in some places, that's not gonna change. It's not gonna change in parts of Texas. It's not gonna change in Georgia and.

[Adam Friedland]

In Florida and amongst the underclass, too. Right.

[Chuck Klosterman]

But. Yes. Well, I mean, what do you mean, the end? Like. Like, poor.

[Adam Friedland]

Like. Like poor kids are still. Like, they're.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It.

[Adam Friedland]

There's diversion against football amongst. Like, it corresponds with, well, socioeconomic.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yes.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It's like the people watching football and people playing football are increasingly getting separate.

[Adam Friedland]

Which, ironically, in the NBA, socioeconomically, it's. It's changing.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I know. Yeah, I know. It's like the idea this kid is like, basketball is your way out. Like, no, it's not. It doesn't exist. Anything.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

What is interesting, though, is that let's say that this continues to happen, that it becomes almost, you know, most high schools, for insurance reasons or just because of lack of interest, they stop playing high school football eventually. That's going to impact these college programs. I wonder if in some future world, this is how the NFL could find a way to keep talent. They're like. They could start this system that starts, like, you know, if you. If you're growing up in Jacksonville, if you want. If you're one of the parents who wants their kid to play football, we will make this happen. We will create a youth Jacksonville Jaguar Football League. The best of those kids will move up to an advanced league. They'll, you know, by that time, college will. College will be a completely different thing.

[Adam Friedland]

Alabama could be in the NFL, right? Theoretically. Not University of Alabama, but like kind of the Crimson Tide or something. Some. Some sort of replacement of that. Because effectively college athletics is, well, at Alabama longer than other places, is a professional sport now.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Totally.

[Adam Friedland]

Now everyone. Now everyone is Nick Saban.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, it is. It is interesting how that is a thing that people say now. It's like, well, the SEC finally, like, now everybody can take it.

[Adam Friedland]

Now everyone is the sec.

[Chuck Klosterman]

What is interesting is that, like, it's hard. It's really hard for them to deny that because prior to that there was like, the. It doesn't exist anymore. But, like, the Southwest Conference. This was like. Those were all the Texas Conference schools in Arkansas before all this got changed. And there's a. Like, there's a documentary called Pony Excess about smu and there's one that's. In the documentary, they were called the Pony Express.

[Adam Friedland]

There was a 30 for 30 about.

[Chuck Klosterman]

But there's like one guy in that documentary who's like, there were schools giving $1 million to players who didn't win a game, which was basically saying, like, Baylor was giving $1 million to God. Because everybody. You know that. So the idea that this has been going on forever. Of course everyone knows it. What was. But there still is, like, it is very different now. It has been sort of like they've leveled the playing field, obviously, in this way. And I think in the short term, that's actually going to kind of create a spike of interest in college football because places like Indiana are going to have this experience.

[Adam Friedland]

I think I'm watching tonight, and I haven't watched college football in years.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Oh, really?

[Adam Friedland]

Because I want to see. I want to see, like, Well, a. It's the clips of that quarterback after the game. I'm like, that guy.

[Chuck Klosterman]

That guy is.

[Adam Friedland]

That guy's hilarious, I guess.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

That guy's, you know. Wait, actually, you know, he's getting paid $3 million a year, I believe, to get.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Right. Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

His high school, like, senior thesis was on why Nil shouldn't exist.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I did not know that. But it is. Yeah. He is a. He has an interesting Fernando Mendoza of talking. It is. It is somewhere. It's like somewhere between, like, AI and like, a Christian musician promoting his record. It's like a weird kind of strange. Like, he's like a guy from Striper and a Machine, but it's like he's great. Well, but yeah, like, that's a great example of it. Like, you're kind of interested in this. I do think that in the short term that this is going to increase interest in college football in a lot of different places. I think long term it's probably going to be catastrophic for the idea of what college football is, because college football offered all these things that the NFL didn't like. A regional quality, a real emphasis on history. The idea that when you're watching two teams, you are in some sense rooting for the kind of kid you imagine going there.

[Adam Friedland]

Right. Wisconsin is going to. Is going to. It's going to be 12, 12, 14, final score.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, they play that style. There was a regional. The conference is all these. And that's going to disappear, Right. They're all going to play. The talent's going to be equally distributed, just like in the NFL. In the NFL, all these teams fundamentally play the same. It's very rare that you see a team in the NFL who play. You know, sometimes there'll be an outlier on one end or the other, but for like the 15 or 20 teams in the middle, they're basically carbon copies of each other. Because when everybody has talent, you can't make a guy disappear. You can't use a stage system to outsmart a guy in college.

[Podcast Announcer]

You still could.

[Chuck Klosterman]

You could still do these things. Something like Mike Leach, you know, he would like sit at this passing game for Texas Tech or when he was at Washington.

[Adam Friedland]

None of those guys like a spread office.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, yeah, or just like system based, like you used to hear. Like the system quarterback.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

And that basically meant that, like if you were a system quarterback, it meant your coach was a genius who knew how to just run guys open. And as long as you could be accurate, somebody like Kellen Moore, when he played at Boise State, I was like, there's no way this guy is not going to see at the NFL. He seems like he hits this guy every time. But then when he got to the NFL, there was no shot. He was, you know, but, but because it was green. Yeah. Blue.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, yeah. Well, no, no.

[Chuck Klosterman]

When he entered the green.

[Adam Friedland]

They play on a green field. Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Adam Friedland]

If you're focusing on protein right now or just trying to feel a little more put together, this bundle really helps.

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Adam Friedland]

It's the beginning of the year and.

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Adam Friedland]

Do you think Bill's gonna be back in the NFL ever?

[Chuck Klosterman]

No.

[Adam Friedland]

No. It's crazy to see what's happening.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It is. It's.

[Adam Friedland]

It's. Pablo's ruining his life. It's all Pablo's fault.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, that's. That's an interesting thing.

[Adam Friedland]

No, it's Jordan.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah, but it's like, it's. In a sense, it really does show that he is not interested in his perception.

[Adam Friedland]

Well, no, because like.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, why do you say no?

[Adam Friedland]

Because his. His entire dominance, I guess, was about completely shutting out the outside world.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah, right.

[Adam Friedland]

And this is completely. Goes against everything we know about him. The Patriot way was that the locker. I mean, they could have murders in their. We'd have no idea. Eventually we would.

[Chuck Klosterman]

But.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, but like, the Patriot Way was about kind of just completely insulating everything from the media. His personal life being a matter of media spectacles.

[Chuck Klosterman]

But he, like, he doesn't care what we think is what I'm saying. Oh, it's like he doesn't care. People like us.

[Adam Friedland]

Sure.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Like, you know, it's like it doesn't mean.

[Adam Friedland]

How were they this year at unc?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, you know, they. They. It was the first game of the year, the opening drive. They look awesome. And everybody was like, aha. This is like. And then it was just kind of, you know, downhill from there. And then at the end of the year, they did play better, but the damage was done.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

And sort of the, the plan he has to make like he was like, this is gonna be like a, like a way to get ready for the NFL. Like, that's all our whole thing. We're gonna be a factory for the NFL. And the byproduct of this will be, well, like we'll win the acc. But that's not what had happened. I mean, it's.

[Adam Friedland]

He's probably just going to copy Indiana, right? He's probably going to have like 45 year old or not 45. He'll have like 28 year olds. He'll find some way. He's the dark lord.

[Podcast Announcer]

He's Palpatine.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It would be incredible if that happened. I, you know, I, I find him just intriguing and hilarious and I just, I love listening to him talk. I mean, have you even maybe you've seen this YouTube clip where like a reporter says, like, well, this really isn't for my story, but I'm curious. It's like, why do you have to hold a roster spot for your long snapper? Like, isn't that a waste of a roster spot specialty? And he explained the history of kicking extemporaneously for like 11 minutes. And it was like, it was almost like this is the first time anyone ever asked him a question in a press conference. And he was like, I'm gonna reward you for this. I mean, it's, it's.

[Adam Friedland]

Well, that's the surprising thing about Jordan Hudson is like, I had no idea he was into anything else.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Oh, you said you. Well, I mean, I don't know.

[Adam Friedland]

Well, like sex.

[Chuck Klosterman]

But there was that famous footage that went above him, like leaving some girl's house.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, the ring camera.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah, I don't think. That wasn't her house. That was somebody else.

[Podcast Announcer]

Right.

[Adam Friedland]

Oh, he's a lot.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I thought so. I thought so.

[Adam Friedland]

I'm pretty sure it's an airbnb be that Pablo like rented and then got a video.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I know.

[Adam Friedland]

Wait, I asked, I asked Nick Wright this. Do you think that if David Stern were alive, Pablo would be dead? I think that he would just be. I think he would be in a dumpster trash can.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I think that like a lot of things that Silver is kind of allowed would not have been allowed, so maybe there'd never be in the position for. I know what you're kind of implying, but it's like a lot of these situations. I think that when, when Silver became the, you know, I interviewed him for gq, I think it was. And I was like, this is the.

[Adam Friedland]

Really smart sexiest man in the world. Yes, exactly.

[Chuck Klosterman]

He was like, this is a smart guy, and he's really kind of personable.

[Adam Friedland]

He's a company man. He's like a lawyer, right? It is.

[Chuck Klosterman]

He is. Stern may have been the last pro sports commissioner who will ever be that way. Like, I don't, I don't think that I. That. I don't know if ownership groups will ever again allow someone. I mean, like, like, he exploded the popular.

[Podcast Announcer]

He did.

[Adam Friedland]

Well, I was born in the late 80s, but, like, in the 80s, the NBA was kind of not a thing.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, with the first time, I was a huge Celtics fan. And when they beat the Rockets in 1981, half those games were on tape delay. You'd watch him at 10:30 or whatever. And then that did totally change. That did. By the, by the end of the 1980s, it kind of felt as though basketball and football might almost sort of be in, like this, like in a kind of collision course.

[Adam Friedland]

And then.

[Chuck Klosterman]

But then it was too. It was too individually based because the two years that Jordan went away, that was. Really showed the risk of that because there was. Suddenly there was. The interest in the NBA went down, and then when he came back, the interest went back up and it was like, that means they're not really into basketball. They're into this person. You can't build things around personality if you want to have long term success.

[Adam Friedland]

Wait, that's. I have no idea. Can you just break that down? Like. So Michael Jordan stopped playing basketball.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Are you being sarcastic?

[Adam Friedland]

So why. Why would he stop. Why would he stop playing basketball?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well. Oh, well, obviously his dad. Father died. You know, his dad died.

[Adam Friedland]

I thought his dad was.

[Chuck Klosterman]

His dad was murdered.

[Adam Friedland]

Oh, I was gonna say his dad would never let him stop playing basketball.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, his father's love was baseball, though. You know, maybe you've heard that.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yes.

[Adam Friedland]

So was he good at baseball?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, you know, he. He did not have a high rate of success.

[Adam Friedland]

He.

[Chuck Klosterman]

He, you know, he's been more successful than I think I would have been if I would have tried to play baseball. But no, he did not ever have a great.

[Adam Friedland]

So his dad got whacked. He went to go play basketball.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, it was a random act of violence. Is that really a whacking? It's not like, you know, Joe Pesci walking into a room.

[Podcast Announcer]

Okay.

[Chuck Klosterman]

He was in a car.

[Adam Friedland]

This sounds like. It sounds like you're making this all up. I thought that he just hung out with Tweety Bird, Bugs Bunny. I had no idea that Michael Jordan was playing baseball.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I Mean, are you sort of saying that you actually believe. You believe that he was forced out?

[Adam Friedland]

It seems plausible that the gambling thing maybe needed to go cool off for two years.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I don't know if I find that to be a very credible conspiracy, to be obvious, to be honest. I mean. Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

And none of this is gonna air because he's a friend of the show. Michael Jordan. Give it up for him. His airness. I don't know. It seems bizarre that, like, I don't understand how a commissioner that was so powerful. Right. Could have had the biggest player in the world kind of leave in the middle of his career like that. I feel like David Stern, as someone that was so kind of just viciously pragmatic and effective, I feel like there had to have been more to that.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, when Jordan retired that first time, they had won three championship in a row. And actually the conversation then was sort of like, well, this is kind of like Jim Brown. Like, he's leaving at the height after.

[Adam Friedland]

He left for civil rights to be a civil rights leader. Well, we know he was a great actor. We've all seen Space Jam.

[Podcast Announcer]

It was phenomenal.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

You know, it's. And so it didn't. When he played baseball, it did seem really weird. But then the contract thing, because the Bulls and the White Sox were owned by the same organization. It made sense. And then his. If you're David Stern, I mean, if you. If you. If. If you. If you were David Stern and you did this, if it is true. It isn't. It is beyond brilliant. Because his return was one of the most thrilling things of, like, my memory of sports in the 90s.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

The 45 to 23.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah. Well, just the game he played against the Knicks, and it was like he hadn't been back that long. And it was like he is. He is instantly the best player in the league again. He has lost almost nothing.

[Adam Friedland]

Okay. I want to. I want to do a couple hypotheticals with you, though. Okay. Let's stay on the NBA. If Tim Donaghy, if it wasn't. If the New York Post, I believe, didn't catch wind of the fact that he was.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah. And that was leaked to them. Yes.

[Adam Friedland]

What would. What. He was going to turn state witness. State's witness. Right.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I think that could have happened. I think it definitely could have happened. Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

My understanding is he was going to wear a wire. And then it became public knowledge that he had been caught in this scandal. Like, how much would that have diminished the credibility of the refereeing and the NBA at large?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, it would have been a big deal. I mean, would have been a huge deal, obviously. But I will say this because it would be an effect officiating issue. It wouldn't have been as devastating as if a player point shaving situation happened. I mean this just happened in college basketball. There's all these guys now who got in, you know, in trouble for, you know, point shaving in a real obvious way. But what is interesting is this seems obvious now, but it never occurred to me. It's like it's always. These point shaving situations are always going to involve teams that aren't good. Those are the teams you go to. And because of that it won't bother fans in the same way. Like there's not gonna be a point. I mean, I'll say this and it'll happen tomorrow.

[Adam Friedland]

You know, Juventus, one of the best teams in Italy, historic team, was caught in a match. Am I right, Tim? Yeah, yeah. In a match fixing scandal. And then they were sent down to the second division actually. So it was a huge scandal.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I'm saying that let's say you're a prospective guy and you want to, you want to corrupt, you want to pay off players and have fix games. It would be a huge mistake to try to get the kids from Duke or Kansas or any of these schools to do it. If for no other reason those games are really visible and these guys. But if you find some guy from a college that is never on television.

[Adam Friedland]

They'Re always football for. What do you think of. Well, it's not a hypothetical.

[Chuck Klosterman]

What?

[Adam Friedland]

What do you think about the hypothetical? Did you write that, Caleb? What do you think about the hypothetical Beatles. What do you think about the hypothetical Beatles movie yesterday?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I never actually saw it, I guess. Yeah, well, cuz I know I. I know something about it that to me would. Is too big of a flaw.

[Adam Friedland]

Which is what? The Beatles existed?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, no, that like nothing else changed.

[Adam Friedland]

Like Ed Sheeran didn't exist or he did exist.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, he's in the movie.

[Adam Friedland]

Oh, he starts writing for Ed Sheeran. Yeah, some. Some bands don't exist. Oh, you know what they say, people don't smoke cigarettes.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Really?

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, cigarettes are popular. We all know that the Beatles were famous for cigs.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Adam Friedland]

Do you think that Drake will ever win best actor for the Audacity of Hope Barack Obama biopic?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Is he playing Barack Obama?

[Adam Friedland]

No, but I've always said this for the last like 15 years that Drake will one day.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Will he do? I think he'll win an academy. I think he'll be.

[Adam Friedland]

For a bet for the Obama.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I think he'll be wrongly snubbed.

[Adam Friedland]

Okay. Yeah, exactly. I think so. Yeah. They'll give it to Kendrick Lamar for the. For the Hillary Clinton bio.

[Chuck Klosterman]

But he's a Canadian. Can a Canadian play an American president?

[Adam Friedland]

If he's acting.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Okay, yeah, because he is eligible to play. To be an actor. I guess you had to.

[Adam Friedland]

Okay, let's just stop calling these hypotheticals, because half of these aren't. What's the best. What is the best soup rock super group? Like, why are the Wilburies as good as Tom Petty? Why is it like a super. A super team? Like, the is. Is really good at basketball. Like, if you have the best players. Like, why are. Why does that.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Why isn't Asia as good as its various components of.

[Adam Friedland]

Like, why are the Traveling Wilbur is the best band of all time?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, because. I mean, I don't know how seriously you want the answer.

[Adam Friedland]

I would like it serious. Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, because when they're.

[Adam Friedland]

No jokes.

[Chuck Klosterman]

When they're all coming together at that point in their career, the idea is that we're doing this kind of like, we're. Almost everyone is conceding to every other person. Nobody has a real vision. Like, Jeff Lynn is producing the record, but it's. For the most part, it's like, well, won't this be fun? We actually produced some pretty good songs. It's interesting that, like, you know, it's. It's strange when, you know, I think Bob Dylan was 47 when that band happened. Like, he already seemed so old, but, like, you know, and like, Tom Petty was nothing. Tom Petty was, like, in his 30s or whatever. But I. There's. You're not going to be committed in the same way, you know, like. Or like a band like Velvet Revolver, I guess that's. Was a kind of supergroup.

[Adam Friedland]

So they're the best one.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, no, but I'm saying it's like they. They would. It's actually hard. It's actually hard to come up with what. What the best. I mean, maybe the Traveling Wilburys actually might.

[Adam Friedland]

They still might be the best answer.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, because that first record was pretty good and their songs are memorable and. And it was. It also sort of changed the way people perceive those guys. It made them seem much less serious and detached.

[Adam Friedland]

They were fun.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Okay. What would David Foster Wallace, were he alive, have made of Trump? Because his obsession was television, right? Like, this is the television president. It's kind of like.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I mean, it's Weird because he was like, he, you know, he wrote a long thing about, I believe, his obsession with John McCain. I think it was like seeing him in this. So, I mean, like, I would think that he would think Trump is sort of like almost like the. The greatest extension of everything that has gone wrong with civilization unless it completely horseshoed around. And somehow he was like, this is actually what America is not. It's not good for America. But this is like the. Like, it would. To be, like, to say interesting things about Trump is hard. It is hard because so many people are trying to do it. Everyone's like, he informs every conversation.

[Adam Friedland]

And yet comedy. He's, like, defeated. Comedy.

[Chuck Klosterman]

He did.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. Because he's funnier. Yeah. Yeah. But it's just like, it kind of. There's so much Runway in DFW to Trump that it's just like, it's. It's so embarrassing that I live in Brooklyn and I'm saying, I wish David Foster Wallace. I wish I could read David Foster walls on Trump.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, it's weird because, like, you know, in British Nellis's book, American Psycho.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

He talks about Trump constantly in that book. You know, at that point, Trump was just some guy going around New York being rich, you know?

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. We were talking about Caleb hits everyone. Caleb hits everyone. Well, give it up for him, guys. Jesus Christ. A little bit of energy.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Have you ever considered using a studio audience? That would really change the vibe here.

[Adam Friedland]

You know, we have. We have. And they slid out their damn chairs. They got so horny.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It was all really.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah. Amazonian women. I'm trying to think. I. There is in that. In the. What is it called? Like, the Rock and Roll Circus documentary. The Dirty Mac.

[Chuck Klosterman]

The Rolling.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yes.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Oh, that. You know. Yes. Okay. So that's like John Lennon playing with the Stones.

[Adam Friedland]

Mitch Mitchell.

[Chuck Klosterman]

John Lennon also in that. Tony Iommi of Black Sabbath plays with Jethro Tull in that performance. That's the only time Tony Iommi plays with Jeff Rotal. I'm sure this is why women love going to my book reading.

[Adam Friedland]

We're the same guy.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I have this information.

[Adam Friedland]

What would have happened if.

[Chuck Klosterman]

If.

[Adam Friedland]

Mr. Mitch. Mr. Mitch Mitchell, perhaps to me, the drummer of Gene. Drummer of the Experience, I think one of the most underrated drummers in rock. Great drummer. What would have happened had he joined after the death of Keith Moon? Had he. Had he joined. What do you call it?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Who?

[Adam Friedland]

The who? Wait, what? I don't know the name.

[Chuck Klosterman]

The.

[Adam Friedland]

The band with the. Tommy and. What was it called?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yes. Oh, They're a British band.

[Adam Friedland]

Who's on the. Who's on first? The what's on. Okay, let's move on, guys. Can you please support me in my dreams of being.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Did you have. Did you bring the McMitchell just to set up that joke so you could actually. I can't believe I didn't play that. It's not that.

[Adam Friedland]

I mean, I didn't play that ahead.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Okay.

[Adam Friedland]

My brain is atrophy.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Okay. I just, you know, it wasn't terrible. I'm not saying it's terrible. I just did not think it was a horrible joke.

[Adam Friedland]

I mean, it was a dog. Absolute steaming pile of dog.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, it was just in front of.

[Adam Friedland]

My fiance's cousin, no less.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It's just. It wasn't. It was an arcane or object.

[Adam Friedland]

What if he joined the who, though? Yeah, that would have been cool.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I think that he probably would have hung with him for a while.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

You know, but they did, you know, they. They kept going anyways. You know, it's like.

[Adam Friedland]

What. It was the best post Beatles career. How would.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Who Speedles?

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Okay, so Zeppelin started in 69.

[Adam Friedland]

Of the.

[Podcast Announcer]

Of the four.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Oh, of the four bears.

[Adam Friedland]

Oh. Ooh.

[Chuck Klosterman]

That's a great question. Wonderful question.

[Adam Friedland]

The first three, John. Are kind of unfair. Top to bottom. I'm fuck withable.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I mean, the best Plastic Ono Band is the best of those records.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Paul's career was the best. I think All Things Must Pass in some ways is like the record.

[Adam Friedland]

The number one record of all.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I mean, it does. It does have.

[Podcast Announcer]

This is it.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I think there's. It's kind of samey at times, but if. I think if I had to actually rank them, I would say Plastic on Obanda probably a better record. But it was. It was one of these things where it was like. It's insane that they didn't let him write more at the Beatles when that record came out. Like a lot of.

[Adam Friedland]

You know.

[Chuck Klosterman]

So really it's. I mean. And then. But, you know, Ringo was in caveman, so it's like, you know, so that's. Or. No, no, no, not caveman. It was Richard Starkley, number one, 3000 B.C. whatever.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, yeah, that's the best one.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I don't know.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I appreciate you asking that question, though.

[Adam Friedland]

Thanks. Why are they better?

[Chuck Klosterman]

What?

[Adam Friedland]

Why is England better at bands? Well, England, like, what's the best American band?

[Chuck Klosterman]

The best American band.

[Adam Friedland]

I guess Bob Dylan.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I would say it would be probably the Beach Boys, the Velvet Underground, the Grateful Dead, Van Halen. Possibly Metallica, Credence Clearwater Revival. Those are the six, I would say. But like, really with England, it's really.

[Podcast Announcer]

It's.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It's five bands. It's the Beatles, the Stones, Zeppelin, Sabbath, the who and the Kinks. Six bands.

[Adam Friedland]

So it's like Floyd, my brother, the Floyd.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Put them in there.

[Adam Friedland]

That's actually.

[Chuck Klosterman]

That's a good. I. I agree.

[Podcast Announcer]

That's.

[Chuck Klosterman]

That's seven. So it's.

[Adam Friedland]

And.

[Chuck Klosterman]

And. And maybe. And it is probably 7 of 10. Best of all time. That is weird.

[Adam Friedland]

Why are we letting them bastards over there take our crap and then get. Be better at it?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, I just.

[Adam Friedland]

I think it makes me want to. The red coat.

[Chuck Klosterman]

There are animals.

[Adam Friedland]

Yes, that's true.

[Chuck Klosterman]

How do we allow this happen? But that's. I would. I don't. I.

[Adam Friedland]

It's kind of baffling when you think about it.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Well, it might have something to do with the singularity of the Beatles. I mean, the way, you know, like, the Stones were just like a blues cover band the first time they had a. Like a successful single. Like, the Beatles wrote it for him in like 10 minutes. So it's like.

[Adam Friedland]

It's hard to round the pub and just rode it.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Although they were like getting in a taxi cab or something. But so that. That had probably a lot to do with it. That, that, that created this idea that it's like, well, this is what. We can do this. Like, I didn't know we could do this. I guess we can. Well, because it was the 50s rock, Radiohead. Yeah. Well, it's a. It's a. Yeah, that's a. Fuck, yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Why are they beating us, guys? What are we doing? It's like seeing these goddamn Europeans come to the NBA.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Will you be troubled if Major League Baseball becomes dominated by the Japanese?

[Adam Friedland]

No, I like that.

[Chuck Klosterman]

You like that.

[Adam Friedland]

I like that. It's really fucked up what we did to them.

[Chuck Klosterman]

You think that's finally equating things like Hiroshima, Nagasaki.

[Adam Friedland]

It's the only time it ever happened.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yep, the only time.

[Adam Friedland]

And to them it really horrible.

[Chuck Klosterman]

They handled it well.

[Adam Friedland]

Did we say sorry like that? Good. How sorry did we say?

[Chuck Klosterman]

I don't know.

[Adam Friedland]

I mean, we're like, my bad. Truman was like, my. My bust.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah. There seems to be like, sort of like. Well, we did stop firebombing all these cities, you know. But it's like. What's really interesting is when you hear how they picked these cities. I watched like a. Like, I don't know, some kind of little documentary or might have just been on YouTube, like how it was selected and like, you know, like, we didn't want to destroy, like, I believe it was like they couldn't destroy Tokyo or something because they were like, that's where all the leadership is and maybe they won't have anyone who can even surrender. And like one city was bypassed just because one guy on the decision committee was like, I went there. It's a beautiful place. So they all go Nagasaki then. It's very incredible how the decision was made. Like this world, time changing decision was made much more capriciously, at least in my opinion, than I would have ever guessed.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Yeah.

[Adam Friedland]

Do you think that there is a potential for soccer ever to take, to take the place of football in the United States?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Because they've been since, they've been saying.

[Adam Friedland]

That since the New York Cosmos. Pele. Absolutely.

[Chuck Klosterman]

Sport of the future. Yes. Well, I, there was a time in my life when I would have said absolutely not. Absolutely. There's no chance at this point in my life, I would say, like, I don't think so, but who knows? I mean, every big thing, thing I've ever predicted, I've been wrong about. I think every big thing, the only thing I really got right. Same is on.

[Adam Friedland]

Do you gamble?

[Chuck Klosterman]

Nope.

[Adam Friedland]

Yeah, I lose. I lose every one.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I know every time.

[Adam Friedland]

I bet.

[Chuck Klosterman]

We had a New Year's Eve party at my house one year and we all had to make predictions for the year and we wrote them down in a book and for some reason I said, Michael Jackson's gonna die next year and there's gonna be issues over his will. And I bring this up every New Year's for the rest of my life.

[Adam Friedland]

It's the only thing you got right.

[Chuck Klosterman]

It's the only thing I got right. The only thing I've ever totally got right, ever. That totally. Like, I remember in 2016, you know, I had this friend who was just totally freaked out about the idea of Trump, you know, and it was like, we're watching the election results come in. It was like 8:15 Eastern and she's texting with me and I'm like, no, don't worry. Like, he's not going to, he's not going to win. It was like, like, like literally like.

[Adam Friedland]

Minutes before every, every white person in America didn't think, well, I know, but.

[Chuck Klosterman]

I'm saying it was like it was 8:15 or whatever. Like it was, it was probably two minutes before. And I was like, no, I just, I am not good at knowing what's going to happen before it does.

[Adam Friedland]

And read his book about what's going to happen exactly.