TAYLOR LORENZ Talks Journalism, Internet Labor, Viral Culture

Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: The Adam Friedland Show
Episode Title: TAYLOR LORENZ Talks Journalism, Internet Labor, Viral Culture
Date: September 10, 2025
Guest: Taylor Lorenz – Journalist and author known for her work on internet culture and influential reporting on social media, influencer labor, and free speech.

Main Theme:
Adam Friedland hosts acclaimed journalist Taylor Lorenz for a candid, often humorous, deep dive into the world of internet labor, influencer culture, journalism’s evolving identity, the problems and power dynamics of social platforms, and the current legislative landscape around speech online. Lorenz opens up about her own trajectory, the psychological toll of the internet, the reality of journalism as performance, and where the battleground for free speech sits in 2025.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Taylor Lorenz’s Latest Investigations and Public Response

• Wired “Dark Money” Report:

  • Lorenz recently published a controversial exposé in Wired revealing secret payments to Democratic influencers for party messaging.
  • Quote (Taylor Lorenz, 04:16):
    "I published the story with Wired a couple weeks ago now, documenting a program that is being run in secret, basically where a bunch of Democrat influencers were receiving money."
  • Network of about 90 influencers paid thousands monthly.
  • Covered the fallout: backlash, slander, and disinformation.
  • Adam humorously assures listeners he’s "not on the list".

• Adam’s ‘I’m Not Involved’ Clarification:

  • Adam asks Lorenz directly if his name ever appeared in the reporting (05:26-05:43).
    “Just for the record, did you ever see my name anywhere in any of those lists…?”
    Lorenz: “No, your name did not. You were not on the list. You did not get that.”*

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2. Taylor Lorenz’s Career Path: From Tumblr to Mainstream Journalism

• Internet Roots & Audience Building:

  • Lorenz began as a viral Tumblr user, transitioned to brand social media, then media journalism, shaping a unique beat around online labor and influencer culture.
  • Quote (11:10, Lorenz):
    "I was blogging, always writing about influencers when I was big on Tumblr… I'm gonna write my own articles about how, like, this is labor and like, this is work and like, Internet labor is real labor."

• Social Media Roles:

  • Social platforms, Vine, launching Daily Mail’s social, and running People Magazine’s Vine account.
  • Controversial moments, like proposed brand posts exploiting 9/11 for Verizon (10:16–10:43).

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3. The Birth and Evolution of Influencer Culture

• Platform Shifts and Monetization:

  • Discussion on the “Vine diaspora”—top creators demanding money, leading to a YouTube boom and the shift to multi-platform brands.
  • Quote (18:19, Lorenz):
    "They wanted to do that. And I just remember being like, this was like, before there was even really backlash to brands online. But I was like, I feel like, we shouldn't do that."

• Rise of the Attention Economy:

  • Lorenz identifies the centrality of money and legitimacy in influencer careers:
    "Just the money and the legitimacy" (18:58, Lorenz)

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4. The Psychological and Social Impact of the Internet

• The Price of Being Online:

  • Both hosts agree most internet activity is economically driven.
  • Quote (B, 19:29):
    "Would you be online if you were making zero dollars?"
    "Absolutely not. No, no, no, no, no."

• Anonymity, Surveillance Culture, and New Norms:

  • Debate on anonymity vs. age verification and the drawbacks for democracy and activism (24:33–25:22).

• Crowdsourced Surveillance State:

  • With everyone recording each other, the traditional “press hat” now blends into ordinary society (21:34–21:43).

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5. Journalism, Branding, and the Myth of Neutrality

• Transparency About Political Allegiance:

  • Lorenz prefers openness about her political stance, challenging “neutrality” as a mainstream media myth.
  • Memorable exchange (A/B, 32:07–34:36):
    Adam: “What is the line between someone that's playing the game, someone that's covering the game, and where do you exist?”
    Lorenz: “Journalism is not a neutral act. Every editorial decision is made to present a certain version of events. And so I just think it's a farce to not acknowledge that."

• Branding as Survival:

  • Journalists now must develop a brand to compete in the attention economy (34:48–35:56).

• Consequences of Public Criticism:

  • Lorenz on reporting critically about high-profile figures (e.g. Mr. Beast, Pamela Geller’s daughters), and public fallout.
  • Quote (B, 37:10):
    "I report critically on people that are doing scams on the for real tip… I've gotten people's like shows canceled, I guess, on like networks and stuff.”

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6. The Free Speech Debate and Section 230

• Censorship & Speech Legislation:

  • Lorenz critiques the bipartisan push for internet censorship and warns about threats to anonymous speech and Section 230.
  • Quote (B, 22:44):
    "I do believe in like an open web and free speech and the Internet's democratizing power. What's been really scary…is this regression where they're so pro censorship, so pro they want to fucking dismantle section 230.”

• Profit Motives of Platforms:

  • Most online regulation is designed with corporate profits in mind, not public speech rights (48:46).

• Age Verification & Online Anonymity:

  • Lorenz: Removing anonymity is dangerous for democracy and activism (25:00–25:22).

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7. Internet, Capitalism, and Potential Solutions

• Capitalism’s Role in Internet Toxicity:

  • Lorenz situates problems of online culture in deeper economic issues:
    "A lot of the problems that people ascribe to the Internet are broader problems with capitalism. And I think we could have a less profit driven Internet and that would be a better Internet." (50:51)

• Antitrust, Competition, and User Control:

  • Advocates for competition in the tech space, user empowerment, and smarter regulation—rather than censorship (51:07).

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8. Personal Toll and Media Satire

• Harassment and Public Scrutiny:

  • Lorenz, often targeted online, talks about threats (including swatting), and the difference between digital hate and real-life risks (42:49–43:14). "What I care about is people swatting my parents… people swatting my family members." (43:12)

• Media Appearances as Performance:

  • Lorenz admits the oddity of being the subject of news coverage and relishes opportunities to confront critics directly (Hannity, Fox News, 44:01).

• Resilience via Humor:

  • Despite relentless attacks, Lorenz maintains perspective:
    "I don't care if people say all day how many times I trend on Twitter. It's funny to me." (42:51)

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9. Closing Reflections – The Project of Taylor Lorenz

• Mission and Ambition:

  • Lorenz’s goals now lie in helping the public understand internet economies, media dynamics, and especially the need to defend free speech online.
  • Quote (B, 46:48):
    "I want to help people understand the Internet. I want people to recognize the dynamics of our Internet, sort of help educate people about the attention economy and take it seriously…I’m very focused on speech, free speech and protecting free speech online."

• Warning Against Authoritarian Solutions:

  • Draws on historical free speech stances (like the ACLU’s defense of the Nazis in Skokie) to contrast with current left-leaning support for deplatforming.

• Diagnosis:

  • The toxicity online is systemic—personal branding, a broken attention economy, weak labor movements, and the profit-driven structure of tech platforms all play a role.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Internet Survival:
  "I think it probably drove me insane a long time ago. And now I'm just like the frog in water." — Taylor Lorenz, 07:48

• Journalists as Influencers:
  "I was, like, very early to embrace the, like, influencer journalist thing, and that made a lot of people in mainstream media really mad at me." — Lorenz, 09:02

• Reporting and Repercussions:
  "I report critically on people that are doing scams on the for real tip… I've gotten people's like shows canceled." — Lorenz, 37:10

• On Media Neutrality:
  "Journalism is not a neutral act… to say that it is is a farce." — Lorenz, 33:32

• On Free Speech:
  "I think we should have more competition. I think we should have more private spaces. I think users deserve more control online over their online experience." — Lorenz, 51:07

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Taylor summarizes Wired “dark money” report: 04:16–05:43
• Lorenz’s start in internet culture and early social jobs: 09:34–11:33
• Vine to YouTube migration and rise of multiplatform influencers: 17:51–18:58
• Section 230 and free speech/censorship argument: 22:44–25:22
• Branding, media and the myth of neutrality: 32:07–34:36
• Consequences and impact of reporting (Mr. Beast, right-wing influencers): 36:07–38:24
• Harassment and psychological toll of online journalism: 42:49–43:38
• On her mission and the importance of defending speech: 46:48–48:25

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Tone

The episode is at once irreverent—full of jokes, satire, and tangents—and deeply engaged with the questions at the core of new-media journalism, the internet economy, and the struggle for democratic spaces online. Lorenz’s openness, wit, and willingness to challenge norms consistently match Adam Friedland’s comedic, probing, and at times purposely clueless style, resulting in a blend of humor and insight for anyone interested in the tangled realities of working, reporting, and living online in 2025.

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Transcript

[A]

Do influencers or celebs know how much the Internet, like, sucks for everyone else?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think it sucks for them, too.

[A]

No, it doesn't.

[B]

What are you talking about? They get, like. Well, they get money, but, I mean, I don't.

[A]

Well, they get money.

[B]

They get money. The people get more.

[A]

Get more money than Austin Butler, probably. Would you be online if you were making $0?

[B]

Absolutely not. No, no, no, no, no, no.

[A]

I don't know. It's scary. It's like you can see people getting killed and then. And then the N word.

[B]

I.

[A]

It's too scary. Itv. Hello and welcome back to the Adam Friedland Show. Guys, it's finally here. The merch. The merch. The merch. We've been talking about it for weeks. You guys have saw me preview it last week. I said, it'll be here any day now. It's finally launching. And for our members and patrons, you have access, early access, and discount codes for all merge drops moving forward, as well as early access to episodes. If you'd like to become a member or a patron, please hit the join button at the top of this page or the link in the description of this video below. For patreon and for YouTube memberships, we got three new shirts, plus the classic Adam Friedland logo shirt and one hat. And I think you guys are gonna look fucking sex. You guys are gonna look sex in them. You think so? Yeah. You've been wearing it. No. No. So once again, it's the TV Glow shirt. What are the other names? Put it on the screen. You got the logo shirt. The logo shirt. The doodle shirt. The doodle shirt. I don't really like it, actually. That's based on a shirt that we found Jay Leno made for the Tonight Show. Not a big deal. Pretty cool. And plus the TV Glow shirt. The TV Glow shirt, that's kind of based on, like, the CRT monitor. Kind of a Videodrome kind of Cronenberg style. Yeah. And then we have this hat, guys. I have pictures of hot girls wearing them. I'll be posting them all week. And of course, the classic Adam Friedland show logo shirt. Go to Adam TheAdamFridland show and Shop there for any of these shirts. The Adam Friedland show. Theadamfridland show for merch. My guest this week is journalist and podcaster Taylor Lorenz. Taylor has been in the news recently for a bombshell report she published in Wired magazine highlighting dark money funneled from the Democratic Party to political influencers across platforms. A damning piece of reporting that we fail to mention in the episode because it was recorded, like, how long ago? Yeah, a couple months ago, actually now. So we missed the big. You probably clicked for that. So why don't I call her? Yeah, I'm. Hit her up. She can catch you up. So it's like. Okay, calling Taylor. She'll catch us up.

[B]

Hey.

[A]

Hey. So you're. Howdy. Oh, wait, are we. Am I. I'm not like, recorded right now. Are you. Are you. Is this off the. Is this on the record? I don't know how to talk to you people.

[B]

You're on the record.

[A]

Well, no, you're on the record, actually. You're on the record. Okay. You bastard. Two could play at that game. Anyway, so we're about to drop your episode, but, you know, we did like, like two years ago or something, so I just wanted to catch up for our audience. Like if you could just like, tell us a little bit about your Wired piece just so we can kind of like just mention that and, you know, like, as if you were on the show. And I said, so, Taylor, tell me about the Wired piece. So if you want to just. Yeah, does that make sense? Okay, yeah. Oh, sorry.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah, go ahead. Anyway. No, just kidding. Go ahead.

[B]

I published the story with Wired a couple weeks ago now, at this point, documenting a program that is being run in secret, basically where a bunch of Democrat influencers were receiving money.

[A]

And it's like a. Like it's gained a lot of. It's controversial or something. They're getting.

[B]

Well, this influencer network has allegedly about 90 influencers in it, and it won't surprise you to know that they don't like being reported on very critically. So I revealed that they were secretly taking thousands of dollars a month for Democrat messaging. And. Yeah, they spent the past few weeks crashing out and slandering me and slandering you.

[A]

Oh, man, I'm sorry about that. Anyway, yeah, it's terrible. So it's. That's. That's horrible. Anyway, just for the record, did. Just for our audience, I think this is like, I. Just to. To maintain the trust that our audience has in us. But, like, did you ever see my name anywhere in any of those lists or whatever reports or.

[B]

Yeah. Did your name come up in the reporting? Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, what do you mean?

[A]

Yeah, what do you mean, a good question? Did you see my name anywhere in it? Just.

[B]

Yes. No. No, your name did not.

[A]

All right.

[B]

You were not on the list. You did not get that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, cool. Sweet. Yeah. Okay. Nice. Yeah. Hope you'll be enjoying your. Your Tuesday. Okay. Or Monday or whatever. I mean, it's coming out on Tuesday. I'm gonna. Okay. Yeah. Well, you won't see it there because they. They won't work with me because I am. Anyway. Okay. Have a nice day. Okay. Yeah, congrats about Wired or whatever. Whatever that's called. Bye. So, yeah, so there's that. I'm innocent and. Yeah. Enjoy the interview. It's really good with her. Journalist Lightning rod. The lightning rod. Our next guest is an independent journalist. She's also previously worked at outlets like the New York Times, the Washington Post. She cut her teeth covering Internet culture. Ladies and gentlemen, Taylor Lorenz. Thank you. Is it this or this?

[B]

Pleasure. I don't know you. I don't know.

[A]

I feel so. I took a PCR for you, though.

[B]

I know. Thank you.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I have no immune system, unfortunately.

[A]

Is it tough, like, just, like, operating that way?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It sucks.

[A]

And people are mean to you. They're like you're illusion.

[B]

Yeah, I'm hated. They're like, fuck you.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's tough. Everyone here is in hazmat suits right now.

[B]

No, it's annoying. But I would say, like. I mean, I'm in a bunch of documentaries and stuff, and like, they usually still take precautions on set for stuff in this show.

[A]

I. As I was telling you before, like, I've made a living on the Internet, but I haven't interacted as much with the Internet as most people. I like kind of mainly just watch movies and stuff and sports and in these interviews, I've been kind of discovering this ecosystem, and it's been incredibly stressful. But from what I understand, this has been your focus for, like, what, the last 10 years of your life?

[B]

Fifteen at this point.

[A]

And in your estimation, like, has it driven you. It must have driven you insane.

[B]

I think it probably drove me insane a long time ago. And now I'm just like the frog in water.

[A]

How do you. How do you cope with, like, the. The insanity of, like, your. Your area of focus is the Internet.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

It must take, like, a psychological point.

[B]

And influencers. Not even just the Internet. It's like online influence.

[A]

Well, they're awesome. We love them.

[B]

Greatest minds of our generation.

[A]

Who's the best one?

[B]

Oh, I can't pick favorites, really. Maybe you.

[A]

I shall speed.

[B]

Oh, I shall be influencer. I love speed.

[A]

I'm influencer.

[B]

Yeah. I think podcasters are influencers at this point.

[A]

I'm not. I'm a former Podcaster.

[B]

Former podcaster. Well, showman. YouTube. Is the show on YouTube?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Am I a YouTuber?

[B]

You're a YouTuber now?

[A]

Oh, yve. I will say the one thought I used to have. You know that one thought you have about yourself, it's like you're trying to fall asleep, and it's like, the worst. It's just, like the biggest, like, most awful thought about yourself. And then you're, like, trying to fall asleep, and you're like. Like, that was that. You're. That. I'm a podcaster who lives in Brooklyn, and I feel like I've retired from that, and it feels so good. Now I'm a YouTuber.

[B]

Now you're a YouTuber that lives in Brooklyn.

[A]

Jesus Christ. I should kill myself.

[B]

I don't know. I was, like, very early to embrace the, like, influencer journalist thing, and that made a lot of people in mainstream media really mad at me.

[A]

It was seen as trash.

[B]

Yeah. They were like, ah.

[A]

But I mean, to some extent, you were, like, the first person to recognize that as, like, a force in popular culture.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, maybe like, the first person in journalism to, like, really make it a beat. I started on Tumblr after college. Yeah, it was the recession. I was temping, but it was just like, I don't know. I got good at making viral content.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And this girl at Tumblr, like, I got pretty popular on there, and, like, media people started to follow me, and I was like, maybe I should be in, like, media or something, or, like, marketing. I don't know. I just didn't know what I was doing, you know? And this girl at Tumblr had me into the office and was like, yeah, like, what are you doing? And I was like, I work these temp jobs and I'm working. I was working as a messenger. I was working retail. And so she helped me get into advertising. And then I was doing social media for brands and writing about copywriting. Yeah, yeah, but. And then I ran. I wrote for the Verizon Wireless Facebook page.

[A]

Oh, my God. Yeah, that was her. That was her.

[B]

My favorite moment from that job. It was the 10th anniversary of 9 11, thank God. And they wanted to put the Verizon logo in the lights. They wanted to do a Facebook post that was like, I don't think that's funny. 4G. We kept it going.

[A]

Verizon wanted to add.

[B]

They wanted to do that. And I just remember being like, this was like, before there was even really backlash to brands online. But I was like, I feel like, we shouldn't do that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then I was writing, I was blogging, always writing about influencers when I was big on Tumblr. Like, other people that were big on Tumblr were like, fuck, Jerry the fat Jew and a lot of early YouTubers. And the mainstream media was like, writing really stupid articles about them. And I was like, I'm gonna write my own articles about how, like, this is labor and like, this is work and like, Internet labor is real labor.

[A]

Memes is labor.

[B]

Yeah, it's hard labor to make.

[A]

Well, so you approached it as a content creator and then went into journalism. Yeah, it's interesting.

[B]

I was always. I always had like an audience online, even before I was in journalism. And then I went into doing. I ran the People magazine Vine account. I was doing, like, social media for, like, media brands. I launched all the Daily Mails social media channels.

[A]

What was it like working for them bastards?

[B]

It was great. I mean, it was like a crazy job because they just. I was the youngest woman in, like, senior management. Cause they, like, this was 2012 when, like, if you knew how to, like, do anything on the Internet and get traffic for them, they were just like, oh, my God. So, like, I got to go this, like, executive retreat in a castle in England and tell them about, like, Facebook with Rupert, with. No, Rupert doesn't own the Daily Mail. It's Paul Dacre. It's like, it's the Roth. I can't remember their name, but it's a different right wing family in England.

[A]

But I mean, at this point, we can see that, like, it's had. I mean, it's just. It is culture at this point. Oh, well, now is that still up for debate amongst legacy media?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The legacy media. I mean, how I know it's interesting. Cause, like, I was at. So I covered the first. I had a Snapchat show in 2016. I covered the first Trump. So they were like, giving.

[A]

Did you get a quibi deal?

[B]

Quibi? No. I wish.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

They were just throwing money out. They were throwing money out. I know.

[A]

Katzenberg, where are you, dude? Give me something for this.

[B]

He should have relaunched.

[A]

I would sell this to anyone. I would sell this to fucking Lockheed Martin.

[B]

But I just want to say, like, in 2016, I was at the Hilton in the room when Trump won. And not many media reporters even bothered to get credentialed for that. And it was all like, Internet people. It was like forum admins and like, influencers and like, content creator, Internet people. That election even Though all these liberals were like, it was Russia that put him in office or whatever. Like, that election was so defined by the Internet and new media. And I think it. I don't think it was until this election the mainstream media even started to notice that, like, oh, we're actually becoming irrelevant. I think it was like when Trump started to put these people in the press briefing room and all this stuff.

[A]

What was that night? Because my impression was always like, that was one of the most insane things I've ever seen in my entire life. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was at the Chapo Trap House live show. Right. And they wrote an entire show to be like, congrats, Hillary. Right. And as it was falling apart that night, I was like, this is the funniest thing in the world. And then I went to a bar. You know that picture of Paris the day after the Nazis took over?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there are those pictures. There's those, like, the citizens of Paris, they're like, we have lost Paris. Yeah. And like, they're like, that is what Brooklyn looked like at the time. My impression was like, those pictures of Trump in the war room was like, he didn't want to win.

[B]

Oh, he didn't want to win. He didn't think he was going to win. And no one at the party thought he was going to win either.

[A]

So funny.

[B]

And it was so funny. And then they were going insane. I stayed there. I stayed up all night that night. I stayed there until 6:30 in the morning. That party went all night. And then I went and got in line outside the New Yorker Hotel to cover Hillary's concession speech where everyone was just weeping. Yeah. Everyone was like, you went to Afton Hillary? Yeah. And she was like, oh, yeah, you.

[A]

Did Molly at the Deplorable. No, no, no, you didn't.

[B]

I had some. I think I had some maybe a drink or two, but.

[A]

Ooh, yeah. With who? Like the QAnon cake I was making.

[B]

Yeah, I was making.

[A]

Do you remember the moment he walked out?

[B]

Oh, absol. On camera.

[A]

It is. It is maybe one of the most. Because I just smoked weed and then I laughed and I was like, donald Trump from Apprentice just became the president. And then. And then he walked out on stage and he's a big, big old stupid, like, like, shit body. And it was kind of in silhouette and it was like, you kinda what you wanted. And I was like. I was like, blazed. And I was like, this is the most insane thing I've ever seen in my entire life. The choral part of. You can't always get what you want?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, like, just. It was like. I think a moment of, like, this is, like a. It's douchey to say this, but I'm like, this is one of the greatest works of art I've ever seen in my entire life.

[B]

This past election, I didn't think we were going to get. I was like, there's no way we're going to. He's not going to do it twice. That election, I was like, 100%, he's winning, and I have the receipts.

[A]

How do you didn't know 100%?

[B]

Not 100%. But I was telling people that I thought I was gonna win because I was doing Facebook stuff and Internet. Like, I mean, I was working social media and, like, well, when Bernie was. I covered Bernie for the first three months before he dropped out. RIP Obviously was like that anyway. But Bernie would do well on Facebook. But, like, Trump was just like, the Internet. There was this, like, groundswell of support online that, like, no, liberals were taking. Like, liberals were in, like, flood full. Just delusion. They were delusional about it. And they were so delusional about the Internet and delusional about, like, I think they were just, like, delusional.

[A]

I've been going through, like, an archive of Howard Stern. Like, I grew up listening to Stern a lot, and he went on, like, almost a hundred times, and I've been, like, listening back to them because, like, as an interviewer, like, he is one of the most difficult interview subjects, right? Like, if you're untethered to the truth, if you say, oh, do you know Roy Cohn? He's like, I've never met him. What do you do? Right? When you know that he knows the guy, right? But Howard, the way that he kind of, like, massages his ego and then gets anything out, just like, does Melania Dwaynel with you? And, like, he's like, oh, Howard, I would never say. I would never say, you know, like, just. But, like, one thing that Trump recognized was like, I think polite society saw Howard's audience as trash, right? But he realized the size of the audience, and he built the Apprentice into, like, the number two rated program after the Super Bowl. And I think that that was kind of a proto maga realization he's had. Cause he's not really a businessman. He's a.

[B]

He's like an entertainer.

[A]

He's from television.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And he's very good at that.

[A]

I want to talk about, like, covering influencers, though, and then go back to contemporary politics. Like, how has that ecosystem changed I think a lot about what the Paul brothers were in 2015 versus what they are now. And like, what are the conditions that you've noticed that have sustained careers and what has killed a career?

[B]

You know, there's just so much more money in this space. There's so much more legitimacy. 2015, I mean, the Paul brothers came vine, and I write about this in my book Extremely Online. That was sort of when people started to become like multi platform before they were very associated with one platform. When vine, well, wouldn't know after Vine. So vine started to decline. There was this famous meeting where 19 or 20 of the biggest Viners got together and demanded money from Vine. They were like, we're making you guys so much money.

[A]

Like you was a king batch.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

What happened to him? He's dead.

[B]

Oh, no, he's around.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But yeah, it was that era. And so they wanted money from the platform. The platform was just owned by Twitter, didn't want to give them money because they were worried that every celebrity would then want to be paid for their tweets and they just didn't also have the money. So they sort of really started to go to YouTube and become these multi platform stars. And that was also when all this money started to really pour into the space. And that was like the beginning of the prank era of YouTube and you saw all these people take off. But I would say like the biggest change of the past 20 years really since the content creator industry started, is like just the money and the legitimacy.

[A]

Do influencers or celebs know how much the Internet, like sucks for everyone else?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think it sucks for them too.

[A]

No, it doesn't.

[B]

What are you talking about? They get like. Well, they get money, but I mean, I don't.

[A]

Well, they get money.

[B]

They got. They get money. The people get more.

[A]

They get more money than fucking Austin Butler, probably.

[B]

Yeah, that's true. A lot of them are making money, but the ones that don't make money, I'm always fascinated by because it's like.

[A]

But that's everyone on the Internet.

[B]

Well, those. Right, exactly. The average people that spend all day online.

[A]

Would you be online if you were making zero dollars?

[B]

Absolutely not. No, no, no, no, no, no.

[A]

I don't know. It's scary. It's like you can see people getting killed and then fucking. And then the N word. It's too scary. Is that free speech or Elon's making.

[B]

It that it's not free speech. He banned a bunch of journalists. I got banned. I got back on though.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, I got banned.

[A]

You. You think. Just this is as an aside, but like, you. You have a autoimmune disorder from COVID.

[B]

Not autoimmune, but an immune. Autoimmune is when your immune works overtime. My immune system basically does not work enough.

[A]

Autoimmune means you have really good immune.

[B]

It's like overworking your immune system. My immune system.

[A]

So AIDS is good? What? I don't know.

[B]

AIDS is not. HIV is not a.

[A]

Is that auto. No, no. Okay. I don't.

[B]

I'm not.

[A]

I don't. I don't. Whatever. Okay. But like, you think wearing a mask, like, masking up, you think that makes you a better. Like, you could be sneakier as a journalist.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

It's kind of good for you. People, like, don't know that they're sitting next to journalist.

[B]

You're the only one still masking in 2025. I feel like you could be in.

[A]

Public and they're like, oh, there's some masked person. But it turns out to be lightning rod infamous journalist Taylor Lorenz.

[B]

I will say I was at the inauguration this year and a bunch of inauguration parties for Trump. And yeah, I was. I think the only person masked was Huktua there She was not, but. But some others affiliated with her were around.

[A]

Who's affiliated with Hooktua?

[B]

Like other random influencers. Oh, God.

[A]

So trashy.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Okay. You think that maybe. I think. You know what is fair. You guys used to wear, like, a fedora with like, a little book.

[B]

The Reddit people.

[A]

No, like journalists.

[B]

Oh, journalists, yes. With a little, like, press badge or whatever.

[A]

Yeah. And then you know who the journalist is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now you don't know. You know, you could be out in public.

[B]

So true.

[A]

You might be saying something. You guys should wear those. Like you think. I think you guys should wear those vests from, like, war zones. Blue vest.

[B]

That's like press with the fedora.

[A]

Just because I say I mess up things that I say all the time.

[B]

But people don't need to be a journalist to, like, now we just have this, like, crowdsourced surveillance state where everyone's recording everyone at all times, like everywhere you go, you know?

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not all the time.

[B]

A lot of the time, I think with facial. I don't know if you've ever used the website. Have you heard of Pim Eyes? Oh, you got to search yourself on Pim Eyes.

[A]

I don't want to look.

[B]

It's like one of those websites where it scans Internet for your face and you'll find yourself I mean, I found myself in like parties from like Williamsburg in 2011.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Animal Collective.

[B]

Yeah. It's like that. I was living in Williamsburg in 2011. I thought it was like peak cool.

[A]

I want to go back because I'm getting off track again. But like, as someone that's covered this, like, do you think we could fix it?

[B]

I do believe in like the. I do believe in like an open web and free speech and the Internet's democratizing power. I don't. I think what's been really scary in liberal and leftist spaces over the past 10 years really is this regression where they're so pro censorship, so pro they want to fucking dismantle section 230. Like they want to.

[A]

What is that?

[B]

It's basically the law that guarantees a free Internet. It allows for you to have basically any platform to sort of like host your speech for. If I wanted to sue you, I'm suing you and not the platform. So it protects platform's ability to publish a wide, you know, wide variety of things.

[A]

Is it protects Google from getting sued?

[B]

Yeah. And it sued for defamation. Like sued for defamation.

[A]

You can make a lot more money if you get them in the lawsuit too. Be sick.

[B]

Well, they would just shut down. Like, I mean, the point is they would stop, they wouldn't shut down. They would stop hosting speech. And that's the, that's the concern. They sort of pre censored things with like the Kids Online Safety act and this, this panic over children, you know, like having open access to information about like trans people when they're teenagers. It's caused these platforms to pre censor a lot of stuff. And I think a lot of these platforms have become way too censorious. We don't have enough free speech online, you're saying.

[A]

But liberals aren't telling them to censor trans people.

[B]

Liberals want censorship of right wing ideas and right wingers want censorship of trans stuff and reproductive justice. They just want to censor each other. And that's why they can come together on these really dangerous, bad, bad, bad, dangerous censorship laws. Like the Kids Online Safety Act. Like the Take It Down Act.

[A]

You mentioned kids. It's like, I didn't, I'm 38. So like, we didn't have like, like I couldn't just watch porn, like pornhub style. I had to go searching for it. I had to like, like people would like hide it in the woods and stuff like that in the woods. And I feel like, I don't know, maybe it's like, I don't maybe it's fucked kids up like 11. They could just see people fucking any. You know, it's like maybe that's a little bit not speech.

[B]

But here's the thing.

[A]

I'm open to that.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure. I think when you frame it that way, it feeds into a moral panic. I think that what you're asking for. It seems like what you're advocating for is age verification online. I think you need to weigh the upsides and the downsides, right? Like, could an 11 year old see porn online? Maybe. But do you want this comprehensive age verification system where everything you do online is tied to your offline identity? That's what they're trying to build right now.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

Basically remove anonymous speech online. So right now you can go on a website, right? And the government doesn't know, like what, who's browsing what website, who's consuming what content, who's posting what a lot of the times, right. Just really essential to democracy. It's really essential to free speech, activism, journalism, stuff like that. Right. So we want anonymity on the Internet.

[A]

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[B]

I think we did.

[A]

I mean, we could guess, but he wasn't like.

[B]

He wasn't over at a badass.

[A]

He wasn't like, fuck, rest and piss Biden. Did you say that? Rest and piss Biden.

[B]

I did.

[A]

You're doing.

[B]

You know what you're doing.

[A]

You know what you're doing?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what you're doing?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what you're doing? You know, like these like journo DC blue check types.

[B]

Yeah, I fucking hate it. I like it.

[A]

They'll take it every. Take it.

[B]

Yeah, they'll take it every time. Every time.

[A]

What is the. What is the line between someone that's playing the game, someone that's covering the game, and where do you exist in that? In that spectrum?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I do hate. I will say I believe. I believe that shit. Like, I don't. I hate Joe Biden. Like, I think he is a.

[A]

Sure. But you're trying to piss off other fucking. Other people in your fucking industry that are you. I mean, it's a. You live in a world of scoundrels and you're trying to like piss off fucking. I don't know The Atlantic.

[B]

I like to get a rise out of these people that I think are sort of just fundamentally unserious. Like, they're lying. Like, their whole thing of, like, we don't have. We don't have an agenda, we don't have an opinion. I think now especially, I mean, considering the context of Gaza, like, we see that the media does have an agenda, and the media does have a certain political stand and certain journalists at these places. I mean, all journalists. Journalism is not a neutral act. Every editorial decision is made to present a certain version of events. And so I just think it's a farce to not acknowledge that. And I've always. And this is why a lot of these mainstream media people hate me, is like I said for a long time, sort of from the jump, that I think that that's an antiquated view of journalism, and I think it's much better to be open about my beliefs and people can disagree.

[A]

But does it color, like, people's interpretation? Because they're gonna be like, she's like, Fox News, right? Yeah, Was like, I feel like things changed because they were like, this is a brand of journalism. And I think that, like, I guess it's an interesting question.

[B]

Journalists have always had brands.

[A]

Does that color your analysis as a liberal or leftist? Or, like, you know, like, does that, like, instead of like, oh, I'm. I'm finding sources and I'm telling a story, and I have, like, professional ethics.

[B]

But I'm not lying about it. Like, what bothers me about traditional media is that they're lying. Like, they're not and not all of them, of course. And there's amazing.

[A]

When did I ever lie? Joe Biden was fine.

[B]

He was doing great, guys, I think, you know, just. I think that. Again, I think this concept of neutrality is a farce. I don't think it's neutral. I've worked in these newsrooms, too. Sometimes they're trying to get. They're actively trying to get laws changed. Right? Like, they're trying to do certain things. And I just think that we should be honest about it. And I will say that is what I think the public. What has caused the public to. And I wrote so much about this in my book, but what has caused so much of the public to lose trust in mainstream media is that farce. Is that sort of. Well, this is just. We're not like CNN being like, you know. Well, we're totally neutral. And, you know, but the war in Iraq is necessary, and they do have whatever, you know, people lie about all These different major events, and now people have the Internet. They can see these lies. And I think it builds. I don't think I know that it builds trust among my audience to know where I stand on things. A lot of people in my audience don't agree with me, but they know my political ideology and they know that I'm gonna come with a certain perspective that I'm not trying to conceal.

[A]

If you're performing a public spat, do you think it's building a brand for yourself and do you think that that distracts from hard journalism or do you think that that benefits your.

[B]

I think it totally depends on the type of reporter that you are. Like, I don't love the system that we have now where there's so many amazing journalists that are not sort of good at manipulating the Internet and aren't ability, like, don't have a good ability to get attention or make a TikTok or whatever, that are just doing phenomenal investigative journalism. Right. And now they feel like they have to be a brand and they have to do all this stuff. That's a very broken system. I would love to live in a world that. That is not, I think, in the current version of the Internet that we have, you know, it is this reality that attention is necessary. And that's always been the case. They sort of offloaded and they would offload that. I mean, you used to be able to depend on a mainstream media brand to sort of deliver you audience, deliver you attention to your stories. Now you can't rely on that, so you have to do it yourself. I just. I think I've always had a very realistic view of the attention economy and always had a very realistic view of who I'm actually competing with and who I'm competing with for attention online. And I don't think I compete with other traditional media journalists as much as I compete with podcasters, with YouTubers, with these other people. And so I've always.

[A]

Who are on your shit list?

[B]

Who's on my shit list?

[A]

Yeah. Who are you trying to fuck with?

[B]

Oh, God, I don't know. But I wouldn't say I intentionally, like, start beefs. I report critically on influencers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, when I did that big Mr. Beast story in 2021 about his labor violations or whatever, I had, like, Phil DeFranco making videos about me. Like, I've always had a beat. That's.

[A]

What did he do?

[B]

Oh, he made this video saying I was. Did a hit piece in it.

[A]

Well, what if. No, what did Mr. Beast do?

[B]

What did Mr. Beast do. He did. He was.

[A]

Because he's a fine individual.

[B]

Yeah, well, he was doing some labor. He had some labor. Some labor issues.

[A]

He had like a sweatshop.

[B]

Hey. He was, you know, debatably torturing his employees.

[A]

I mean, he tortures people on his show all the time.

[B]

Well, I think that was the thing. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

The show is the Stanford Prison Experiment.

[B]

Yeah. He was also signing people to respond.

[A]

To desperate people like, Please, Mr.

[B]

Beast, I went to Greenville to do a story on the economic impact these had on Greenville and like the town. And it's bizarre because everyone.

[A]

People move in there so they get free iPhone and stuff.

[B]

There's.

[A]

That's awesome. The whole town is like, China, please, China, please, China. This is against Christ. Continue. Sorry.

[B]

The town is just like, everyone's sort of hoping that he might, you know, come into their business, give them like a. You know, and they'd be like, oh, I heard Jimmy's video. He's gonna be the video. So Jake Paul has said that he wants to run for president. He's eligible in 2035. Jake Paul, I don't think he can do it. I think Mr. Beast. Mr. Beast said he wants to run for office.

[A]

We need speed against beast. Decide.

[B]

Well, I'm voting speed.

[A]

Yeah. Beast, Republican. Speed. China. What's the worst you ever ruined someone's life?

[B]

I wouldn't say I ruined someone's life. I report critically on people that are.

[A]

Doing scams on the for real tip. Even if they're a bad guy. What's the most eviscerated you ever did?

[B]

The way the attention economy works, like all pressure can be good press. So I don't know that I.

[A]

So you're hyping.

[B]

But I mean, I've gotten people's like shows canceled, I guess on like networks and stuff. I don't know what shows I got the girls from the. More. Pamela Geller's daughters. Do you know who Pamela Geller is? Famous. Just a crazy right wing influencer. Yeah, she. She has these two extremist daughters who had this podcast on like Yahoo Network or something.

[A]

You got a podcast? Yahoo. Yahoo. Podcast.

[B]

Podcast. And now I think like somebody. Their fandom like really hates me for that.

[A]

I don't know who these people are.

[B]

Pamela and Geller went sort of.

[A]

I know speed, Mr. Beast. Pretty much.

[B]

That's all you need to know.

[A]

LeBron Luka.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Jalen Brunson.

[B]

I know the sports world. You know that I did a story years ago for the Atlantic about how viral videos were making college basketball recruiters like, visit high schools that they wouldn't previously because, like, these teenagers would go viral and like, how that was affecting the recruiting process and.

[A]

Well, that's been like thrown into chaos now.

[B]

Oh, now, Yeah, I followed nil because.

[A]

They can make money now. So they have to like recruit four year olds.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like pay off a corrupt family member of a four year old in the middle of Iowa or something. They're like, we saw your boy.

[B]

But it's like, interesting to see.

[A]

You want to get him signed to CIA.

[B]

No, literally.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But also like, they have. I went to see Boulder and like, we have Deion Sanders now and like Prime. Prime. Coach prime. Which is, you know. But it's like, interesting.

[A]

Like, did you show with Steinie?

[B]

Did I go? I didn't. I don't think we. I don't know if we overlapped, but I didn't know him in college.

[A]

His nickname was Xanax at his frat.

[B]

Really? What frat was he in? I was a sorority girl in college.

[A]

What sorority were you?

[B]

Alpha Phi.

[A]

Did we just break that scoop? Did we just break that? What was Alpha Fee like, bitches mean?

[B]

No, it was. It was. It was chill.

[A]

No, it wasn't.

[B]

It was not.

[A]

What'd you guys do?

[B]

They were bullying.

[A]

Who were you mean to the ugly girl sorority?

[B]

Everyone was really mean. It was like. It was. I don't know, it was like the late 2000s.

[A]

Like, it's kind of interesting. It probably prepped you for like the world of journalism.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Greek life.

[B]

Greek life, yeah.

[A]

Why do you think that the right wing has done the Internet better?

[B]

Oh, they've always had a very personality driven media ecosystem. I mean, even since the days of like, talk radio, they've always. Yeah, fire.

[A]

I mean, yeah, he did that job every day. Geeked off of. He was like, future. He just hopped in the booth. Perfect.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he was on fucking perks.

[B]

I mean, so many of them are just March Madness phenomenal, like entertainers and good at getting attention and good at having opinion. They also, because they felt like they never were gonna get a fair shot from like the traditional media, which they feel like, which I think is probably true. It's like very much more sympathetic to Democrats. Like, they always had to build this alternative media structure and they recognized the power of the Internet, really, in the early 2010s, like Bannon and this sort of newer wave of people that. That founded these digital media companies, like, realized influencer. They recognized influencer culture very early, I.

[A]

Guess, like, what is your prescription for how Progressives can actually like get this back, like. Or is it a lost cause?

[B]

No, I don't think it's a lost cause.

[A]

Should they start saying the N word also? No, because that's how the right. The right might be winning.

[B]

Yeah, it's like this girl on TikTok.

[A]

I don't think that's.

[B]

No, you shouldn't Obviously not. There's this girl on TikTok that's like, the Democrats need to be bullies. And she came, she got canceled recently because she was like. And by the way, I was popular in high school and it's not true that the popular people and everyone was just like, why? You're like 34. Like, why are you talking about, you.

[A]

Know, all this stuff? Yeah, you're gonna die earlier.

[B]

I probably will.

[A]

I think you are.

[B]

I mean, my immune system is like non existent at all.

[A]

No, it's not even cause of that. You're gonna die because you're. Because this is stress. No stress.

[B]

Stress.

[A]

I mean, stress is a killer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cigs are healthier than stress.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think.

[B]

I'm pretty sure I live in la. I have a good life. Like, I don't. It's not. I don't take it.

[A]

Those people are so stupid over there.

[B]

I like la. Cause it. It's.

[A]

Let's do LA versus New York. Let's go. No, I'm just kidding.

[B]

I like. What I like about LA is like, it's just a little removed from the whole, I don't know, media, DC, NY shit.

[A]

It's true. They don't have any media in la.

[B]

It's just. There it is.

[A]

They've never made any movies. Are you gonna make a movie about.

[B]

What the most harassed woman every time they wanna do? I don't know what you're gonna do for the intro of this. Anytime someone does like a. Like an interview with me or whatever, it's like they have to do the super cut in the beginning of like Taylor Lorenz. Taylor Lorenz. And it's just like, do you ever.

[A]

Want to be the least harassed woman?

[B]

I don't think. I don't take. I don't care. Like, I don't if people want to yell online. It's not affecting me. And this is what pissed me off so much about that MSNBC thing. Like, I don't care if people say all day how many times I trend on Twitter. It's funny to me. What I care about is people swatting my parents. You know, like that shit. What does that mean when they call in? No it's like a swat. It's a federal crime, but it's. They call.

[A]

Oh, the SWAT team thing.

[B]

Yeah. And they, like, not.

[A]

That's antisocial.

[B]

Well, that type of shit. They're doing that shit to my family members. They're harassing people that. Just, like, the person that took them. Yeah.

[A]

You're playing in the mud with all these people.

[B]

Totally. But I'm saying, like, that's.

[A]

Do you feel bad? A little bit. Cause it's like you're engaging with the crappiest of the crap.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you say, sorry. You're like, mom, my bad.

[B]

Well, my parents thankfully, like, don't. They're like.

[A]

They didn't realize the SWAT team was there.

[B]

Well, it's happened a few times, but. But, yeah.

[A]

So you've destroyed your family. You're dying. You now have debilitating disease. You're also gonna. You're. You're engaging with the scoundrels. You're disrespecting Piers Morgan, some of the. Some of the finest people in our society. And, Piers, if you'd ever. If you. If you want, like, I'm here. Here you go again, Piers.

[B]

Did you see. They let me on Hannity recently.

[A]

How was that?

[B]

I was. I want them. They gotta put me back. He kept asking me, what's it like doing that?

[A]

It must be so fun.

[B]

I thought it was.

[A]

Do you tell them to let me?

[B]

100%. The producer has not responded to me since. I was like, let me know anytime. Because they talk about me all the time on Fox News. And I'm like, put me on. If you're gonna talk about me, let me say my part. The whole time. Hannity is just being like, don't you think Brian Thompson had a soul? And, I don't know, just weird shit like that.

[A]

Oh, yeah, you got in trouble for saying you felt happy that Luigi killed that girl.

[B]

No, I said.

[A]

I said you were like, I love that shit.

[B]

I said I felt joy that people were finally acknowledging the systemic violence of our health care system.

[A]

System. You felt joy in that?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Which.

[A]

And he was, like, shocking.

[B]

He was like, how could you use that word?

[A]

I haven't the fuckiest. What are you saying?

[B]

He's got the fucking nhs. He doesn't even know how bad we have it.

[A]

I love Piers, dude. Yeah, he's the man, dude.

[B]

I still read the Daily Mail, like, top to bottom every day.

[A]

Oh, he was the Daily Mail.

[B]

He was on Daily Mail. Yeah. He had, like, a column. He was really good friends with the old editor.

[A]

What would. If you wrote an article about someone and they killed themselves, would you feel bad?

[B]

Of course. Course, yeah. I mean, if my article was like, relevant to. If they killed themselves unrelatedly. But yeah, I mean, if I wrote something that ultimately led them to spiral, I would feel bad.

[A]

This is like. I think this is perhaps one of my greatest challenges because you're perhaps the most media trained guest I've ever had. Because you're the media, right?

[B]

Yeah. But I do think it's weird to be on the other side of things. Yeah, it's hard to interview 2.

[A]

How the fuck do you. Welcome to the Thunderdome.

[B]

I had to go to a zoom improv class once. I like, didn't get this, like, TV.

[A]

That made me nauseous just now.

[B]

It was so bad. Adam. It was so bad.

[A]

During COVID you did ucb Zoom improv, dude.

[B]

I don't know if it was ucb. I didn't get this, like, TV contributor gig that I was up for. And the feedback was like, you're not good enough, like on your feet. And so.

[A]

Oh. To be like, with a microphone.

[B]

Yeah, I was gonna do. It was like this like TV hosting thing. Cool.

[A]

Mario Lopez style.

[B]

I like. Which I've done tons of, like, Internet stuff like that. This was for broadcast anyway. And that was a feedback. And so they were like, oh, you should do like an improv class. This was like April 2020. So I like Googled like, improv. Yeah, I did a fucking zoom improv and two of the people in the zoom improv were in the same room.

[A]

That's one of the most loser sentences.

[B]

It was terrible. Well, that was my. That was like, I'm done with this shit. I did one class and I never went back.

[A]

Don't be saying that in front of Tucker because he's going to kill your ass on that. She did zoom improv. What? I guess I have one last question. What would you identify as, like, your project? Like what? Like what? Like, obviously you have an ambition, career wise.

[B]

There's a few things I think I want to help people understand the Internet. I want people to recognize the dynamics of our Internet. Sort of help educate people about the attention economy and take it seriously. I mean, I do think I've done a lot to help people understand the media landscape differently than maybe they have now. More recently, now that people sort of seem. I feel like I've accomplished a lot of that. Like, I don't feel. I used to feel like if I don't write this story, like, no one will cover it. Like no one else covers this industry. Like there's not that many reporters. Like I have to do it now. I feel like there's people covering that now. I'm very focused on speech, free speech and protecting free speech online.

[A]

And babies watching porn and stuff.

[B]

No, I mean just like civil liberties. Like I think like I said before, like liberals and leftists have abandoned so much of that and pushed this like bullshit moral panic stuff that's not based in reality and not based in any sort of science or anything. And so I care.

[A]

I remember like government class when you learn about Skokie, Illinois.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I always thought it was like so cool that like there were like lawyers, a lot of them are Jewish at the ACLU that were defending Nazis. Yeah, they're like their right to like march through a community which I understand had a lot of Holocaust survivors. But they're having like a principle like free speech being paramount. But now that would to me sounded like. So that's really dope that it's more important we protect this and even by standing up for the Nazis. So I kind of, I understand that as a progressive principle for sure, but.

[B]

Most progressives today, I would argue don't. I think a lot of people on the left today would argue for deplatforming, would argue for censorship. They're arguing for these age verification law, these really dangerous Internet bills that do want to strip speech rights.

[A]

But these are corporations with profit incentives, right?

[B]

Exactly. And we should. Instead of punishing the users, which is what these speech laws do, they're not punishing the companies. There's a reason why Apple and X are backing a lot of these, backing age verification and things like the Take it Down act or whatever. Because it punishes the users, it punishes speech online. It doesn't actually fundamentally affect the business model. These profit driven companies, they have no incentive to protect free speech. If they get this law passed in Texas that they have, it's hb. I can't remember the name. I made a video about it recently. But you know, they want to censor all speech about abortion online. Criminalize it essentially. And that we don't have state by state Internet laws that will result in that sort of content getting censored across the country. And Facebook doesn't care. They're like, okay, if the government says that, sure, we'll censor it. We don't care. We're in the profit driven business.

[A]

Yeah, because you got muscles now and a chain.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And he's like, now free speech, he doesn't care.

[B]

None of them actually care about defending. But I don't think many people do care about protecting free speech outside of maybe FIRE and the Electronic Frontier foundation, like a couple organizations. But like, I'm talking about like activists. Like, they don't care. They're saying this bullshit about like, we gotta ban cell phones or whatever. Like, it's just, it's like I really care about speaking speech online. And if I had to sort of think about like, I feel like if I have to pick an issue that I want people to understand, it's. It's that one.

[A]

Yeah, I just, I worry. I don't know, I don't know what the answer is.

[B]

Too much speech.

[A]

I just worry that people like just aren't. People are being like freakazoids. People are being fucking weird. And I think that, like, I mean, I think it is bizarre to be like for $0 yelling at the government or the president all day. Right? I think that, I think it's like, I can't understand, but I think that everyone kind of like views things as like personal branding now and like, but like, I like it when things are normal and it's too weird.

[B]

You're in the wrong decade. I think a lot of the problems that people ascribe to the Internet are broader problems with like capitalism. And I think we could have a less profit driven Internet and that would be a better Internet.

[A]

How the fuck are you gonna.

[B]

We have, we have, I mean, we have systems like that. We did things.

[A]

You have broker companies.

[B]

No, but we have, right now we have a duopoly. I think it's interesting, by the way, that there's all this like antitrust conversation. I think that should have happened 10 years ago. I think the fact that so much of the Internet now is defined by like a very small amount of major social platforms that have like a complete dominance of the market and can act arbitrarily to, you know, like, I think that's bad. I think we should have more competition. I think we should have more private spaces. I think users deserve more control online over their online experience. These are all things we can advocate for that would make the Internet a lot less like the way that you hate. You know, it makes all of us miserable, right? Like it fucking makes all of us miserable. Like, but the answer is not to like eliminate the Internet and censor speech. The answer is to like, you know, regulate these companies in a smart and coherent way that actually targets the companies themselves. And they're maybe also.

[A]

The answer is like, if someone has a job they can't be doing that all day long. Right.

[B]

I feel like more jobs require you to engage with the Internet though.

[A]

Maybe it's just like not enough jobs. So people are just like, I'm gonna be on the computer too many email jobs. I'm gonna be filming people not wearing someone telling me to put a mask on cvs and then I'm gonna be in Congress in two years time.

[B]

Yeah, that. I mean, but I think that that's the broader issue with like our attention economy and all. Yeah. I also don't think we would have a lot of these problems if we had a coherent. Like so many of our problems are. I think if we had an actual populist movement, if we had a movement for that was driven around class solidarity and workers rights and things like. I just think a lot of these problems that are sort of systemic problems that we view through the Internet would not manifest in the same way. But we don't have that. We have the Democratic Party instead.

[A]

They're fire.

[B]

They're not doing anything. You're trying to get that DNC money.

[A]

How do you get it? You know them.

[B]

I mean, how do you get it? You gotta, you know, Taylor runs everywhere. Yeah.

[A]

SA.