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- [00:00]
A
Hello and welcome back to the AIAC podcast. My name is William Shoki and you are listening to Africa as a country's weekly podcast about politics and culture on the continent and elsewhere from a Left and Pan African perspective. If you missed our last episode, it was an insightful conversation with our East Africa regional editor Wangui Kimari about the ongoing unrest in Kenya. Be sure to check that out. And most importantly, don't forget to subscribe this week we are talking about France. Why talk about France? I'm reminded of the line from Senegalese film director Djibril Diop Mumbatti's 1973 film Tukibuki, in which a character says with exasperation, france. Nothing good comes of it. Well, we shall see, because on Sunday, July 7, France heads to the polls in the second round of a legislative election widely viewed as a referendum on the future of the country. The results of the first round boasted a strong showing for the far right party Assemblement Nationale, or National rally, who won 33% of the popular vote. The leftist alliance, the Nouveau Fronde de Populaire, or New popular front, won 28%, and President Emmanuel Macron's centrist bloc ensemble altogether came third with 21%. Macron called these elections in early June, after the European Parliament elections saw a big swing to the right across the continent. Of the 81 seats designated to France in the 720 member body, which is the second highest allocation of any member state after Germany, the National Rally won the most, 30 to be exact. Faced with an uncertain parliamentary mandate, Macron seemingly called these elections to test the national mood, a gambit that many commentators say has backfired. So joining the podcast to discuss these elections is AIAC's Francophone Regional Editor Shamira Ibrahim. Why are these elections significant? Why is Macron so popular and how come it's the once fringe right wing benefiting rather than the left? What might the normalization of anti migrant policies mean for black and brown people in France, as well as the more than 2 million people who live in France's overseas territories? In addition to being our Francophone regional editor, Shamira is a Brooklyn based writer by way of Harlem, Canada and the Comoros who explores identity, cultural production and technology. So here's my conversation with Samira. Do enjoy. Shamira, welcome to the podcast.
- [02:41]
B
Thank you for having me under inauspicious circumstances, but thanks.
- [02:47]
A
Well, we're about to get into it, of course. What we want to talk about is the big week that it is for France. They've just concluded the first Round of legislative elections correct. At the time of recording this conversation, it is Wednesday 3rd July. On 7th July, there'll be a second round. And I just want to. I think most of our listeners will be somewhat familiar of what's unfolded, but could you just kind of account for us where. Where we're at? How do we get here? Why even is there an election in the first place?
- [03:29]
B
Sure. Thank you for, first of all, for giving the caveat of the timing, because the information is constantly shifting and who knows what will happen in the next 48 to 72 hours. But to give some context, in the most recent weeks, we should start with the European Parliament elections. Right. For those who are unaware, the European Parliament is the largest, second largest legislative body in the world. It obviously is the legislative body of the European Union. They had their elections last week. From June 6 to June 9 is when the votes happened. And then the actual results started to come in. As those results started to come in, it was already foreseen across Europe that there has been a rise in support for the far right. We're talking uk, obviously, Poland, Germany, Sweden, Hungary, all countries that have either put the far right in actual legislative power as a party or increase the number of places where there has actually been representatives for the far right. France is no exception to that. And it was foreseen, due to the last 10 years of very strategic work by Marine Le Pen and the far right party, which is known as the National Rally, a rebrand actually, from its original name, which was the National Front, that they would be gaining seats, and they did, to an astonishing number. The final number of seats that they got was pretty significant, and it actually is really impactful purely because France has a second amount, second number of seats by volume in the European Parliament. They get 81, I believe. And so when they got a significant number of votes, it was an actual shock to the system of Macron and his party, which is the Renaissance Party, which is supposed to be this populist party that the jargon is very vague. Right. But in a concept, it's supposed to be the centrist populist party party that unites the far left, the left and the right without going to extremes. Right. It was originally called Amash, which is, you know, we. We walk on, but now it's a Renaissance. So it was known that Macron would not get enough votes for his party due to his immense disapproval over the past couple of years for several reasons, which is a very unpopular rise of the retirement age 62 to 64. Which was protested and also done by actually surpassing the national assembly, which is France's legislative body, as well as just increasing limiting conditions in France, as it has been throughout the rest of the world. Right. Higher cost of living, inflation, lower quality of life, inequality across class. All these things came to become a sticking point for people with regards to Macron's presidency, similar to what you see in America with Biden's presidency. And so now, because of the stark number of votes in the European Parliament, Macron calls for an end to the current legislative session to essentially force national mandate on where the country stands with regards to support for his party, support for him as president in his final three years. And the initial first round numbers came in and they were not excited or affirmative to his party. Unfortunately, in the first round ballot, you see that the National Rally has gotten over 30% of the presumed vote. And then Mahon's party came in second, but only just surpassed Socialist Party. So the Socialist Party was right behind, which I think many of us know Socialists are not necessarily the most beloved people in legislative elections. So it just kind of comes to show you just where everything has kind of declined at this point.
- [07:03]
A
So. So they came just behind the Socialist Party. But overall, the coalition that Macron is a part of, ensemble, came third. Right. So national and then right, correct. Leftist coalition, second and then correct. Centrist coalition and third.
- [07:19]
B
Correct.
- [07:21]
A
So how, how is it that the right in, in France is, is so popular and it's so ascendant? Because I think you, you referenced that it went through this rebrand once upon a time, that it was the National Front. And Marie Le Pen is the daughter of its original founder, Jean Marie Le Pen. And there was a time in French politics when that political current was viewed as fringe, as extremist and threat to the democratic health of French society. But now suddenly it's palatable, it's on the cusp of power. So could you walk us through what this sort of sanitization campaign of the National Rally has entailed and how Le Pen and the people around her have been able to rebrand the political party as one that appeals to the French electorate.
- [08:24]
B
Right. To give a short answer. She is really good at marketing and so has been a lot of far right parties across the globe. To be, to be quite honest, similar to what has happened with the far right or all right movement in the gop. A lot of far right movements have really essentially assess the situation and how they get heavily rebuked by specific nativist policies for their link, for their language and how the language is associated and coded with racism, white supremacy, obstruction, anti Semitism even. And instead of actually changing their objectives, they reframed it into more universal themes that resonate with people across classes, across races. So instead of saying, we are going to secede from the EU and bring it back to white French people, or what is called Francis aux Souches, which is essentially France by ethnicity, of France by origin, which is a fake concept, right? But that's a conversation for a separate dialogue, right? In this conversation, what they have done is said we're looking to really appease the issues that we've been neglecting in France. Right? You have been struggling with employment, you have been struggling with jobs, and immigrants are taking your jobs, right? You haven't been able to have a quality of life that you feel like you are entitled to in this universalist populist utopia that France has designated itself to be. We are here to help you reclaim that. And it has required a lot of intentional and tactical moves. As we mentioned, Marine Le Pen is the heir apparent to the party. Effectively her father was the founder of it. One of her early moves as someone who inherited the party was to kick her father out of the party, right? Which was a very intentional tactical move, as he is someone who has known, literally has the reputation of the devil of the Republic because he has run multiple times, been censored multiple times for his anti Semitic, nativist, white supremacist conspiracies. And that action effectively started to place Marin in a position to start to rebrand the party over time. Right? It began with apologies for anti Semitic actions. It would be willingness to be engaged in public events and speak in a more muted tone about things that have historically been very, very volatile in France. Attending protests to show empathy to victims of violence in France throughout recent years, continuing to soften policies where, okay, we still want the Euro, but we're Euro skeptics, which is a long way of saying that they're trying to root themselves to the European collective project. Right? And all of these sort of varied approaches have continued to move towards idea where instead of calling themselves, instead of the press calling them right wing nationalists, it would be right wing populists, Right? The fascist part has slowly become eroded from the public conversation framed by the media of what the National Front is, Right, which has since become the national rally that even came into effect in 2018 when they officially rebranded the party and moved on since. And so anytime that there has been active traction, Marine has been front and center saying, we hear you, we Feel you, we understand your frustrations. We're here to empathize with that, using vague platform points that obscure the more destructive and harmful individual points that have maintained throughout the party since its existence in the 70s.
- [11:55]
A
So that was, that actually gets to, to something I was about to ask, which is this question. If you're an outsider and aren't familiar with the intricacies of French politics, someone could look at National Rally and wonder, is this actually a substance of change? Like, is this a party that has undergone an introspection and has decided rather than becoming these, rather than remaining these sort of right wing nationalists, they want to become more like ordinary conservatives. Right. And they've started to appeal to some people in the French rights. Someone like Eric Chorti, the Republicans, for example, has endorsed Le Pen, even though something in his party haven't gone that route. But you could think, well, maybe there's, there's nothing to fear in that case, maybe they're, they're, they're moderating and so we shouldn't clutch our pearls and, and be afraid about their rapid ascent. Or are these largely cosmetic changes, as you said, Le Pen is this mastermind marketer. And even though they're toning down some of their language on some of the nativist policies that they might have once fronted with their chest, there's still an intention to kind of maybe by stealth implement these if they get close enough to power.
- [13:21]
B
Right. It's not even by stealth. It just requires a little bit of attention of where the sleight of hand is happening. Right. So for example, like I mentioned, you know, they'll say now they don't want to remove themselves from the eu, they want to reform the eu. Right. You know, now we're using softer language and doesn't ultimately result in the same issues. However, in preparation for the European Parliament vote, Le Pen and her party actively sought conferences with far right parties throughout Europe to start to create the block that is the block that currently exists in the far right in the European Parliament now. So we're talking meeting with the far right party in Portugal, right, which is a joint, and did a joint press conference with them actually with Andre Ventura, essentially indicating and signified to the loyal party members who have been there for decades that the objectives are still there, even if they're working on rebranding their messaging. Right. And a lot of that has been quite effective, unfortunately, as we can see by the turnout of the initial votes. And that canary in the coal mine actually started to rain a couple of years prior in 2020. Two, when Marine Le Pen actually ran for president, she got a significant amount of the vote at the 40% of the vote. Right. Obviously, Macron still triumphed, but that was an early indicator that with the votes, as well as the votes that her actual representatives and the national assemblies were getting throughout the country, that trends were changing. And now, two years later, we're just starting to see the repercussions of that continue to build. So this has been a very invested project that, with the rebranding, can obscure the finer details, not just because of how the party has perpetuated it, but also because of how the media has softened their language as well as the party in power currently, there were times when the current Interior Minister, Gerald Darremain, would previously have openly mocked the National Rally, openly calling them National Front by choosing to shame them by using their legacy name, and has now moved publicly towards embracing policies that have actually uniquely been viewed as unpopular, which includes the current conversation around Mayotte, and specific to Mayotte and generally to the Outremer, which is the overseas departments of France and territories, is the conversation around birthright or droitu Sol. Right. And the conversation around potentially revoking it if you are not a child of French nationals. And that is something that has had significant repercussions and is a major win for the far right in the conversation.
- [15:54]
A
So I didn't think we would talk about Meozzo so quickly, but I actually, actually want to get into it now because you might as well, because, because I think for our listeners, you, you mentioned the French overseas departments. And people might think that French colonialism ended a while ago, but alas, there are these extensions of motherland.
- [16:16]
B
Right, right.
- [16:17]
A
You know, go far to, to various corners of the world. And some of them have been in the news recently. You know, one place is. Is New Caledonia correct, which is sort of in Polynesia. And is this place where the French were on the. Were trying to revoke constitutional provisions that restricted voting on the island to shift it to. Anyone who's been there for 10 years could acquire the right to vote, which the native Kanak population interpreted as on an assault on their kind of national sovereignty. Because I think that would mean that the right to vote now suddenly becomes available to about 60% of people who live on the island who are, you know, by and large, French emigres who could overwhelm the native Kanak population in, in the ballot box. And then you have, on the other hand, this proposal that you just mentioned in Mayotte to revoke birthright citizenship. The interesting Thing though, about Mayotte. And it's apt that you're talking about Marie Le Pen's efforts to build this kind of pan European right wing bloc. Because one thing she did recently, this year as part of this sanitation exercise that stokes the ire of the far right in Europe was she visited the island of Mayotte, which.
- [17:53]
B
To a great reception.
- [17:54]
A
To a great reception, exactly. And, and it's a stronghold of the National Rally. And I just remember kind of seeing these images of her being swarmed by islanders and kind of wondering, you know, what's, what's the deal with us? And kind of, you know, the alternative for Deutschland, the AfD, which is the kind of right wing party in Germany, were like incensed. They were like, this is, this is too woke for me. Like this is a step too far.
- [18:22]
B
You. Right, right.
- [18:25]
A
With the natives. How could you. And you know.
- [18:27]
B
Right, right.
- [18:29]
A
So it's just kind of, you know, I just thought this was a very kind of bizarre moment in the political news cycle. And so could you, could you talk a little bit about that? You know, how did it come to be that, you know, the, the National Rally has a stronghold in Moyote that is trying to sort of pass this, this, this law that will revoke birthright citizenship, which is viewed as kind of like a test case for doing the same in the motherland. And, and is there resistance to that or is it, is it being welcomed and supported?
- [19:00]
B
Right, okay. Yeah.
- [19:03]
A
Where to begin?
- [19:06]
B
I'm like, where do I, where do I start? I should start with a caveat that I am someone of Comorian heritage. For those who just need to be familiar of the geography or political environment of this. Comoros is an archipelago of three islands, depending on who you ask, you know, that got its independence from France in 1975. At the time of when it got its independence, Myotte was viewed as the fourth island of the archipelago and the Union. After the independence vote, Myotte became an overseas territory of France. And this is happened after two votes in 1974, 1976, and has since voted overwhelmingly to become a department. I just want to lay out some of the bare bones facts there before I start to editorialize a bit with my own political as well as just research lens on that. With regards to the conversation of bayonet. It's a very peculiar conversation for the National Front because a lot of the history around the National Front and even just French conservatism is tied around these four small islands that many people do not know about. Right. Just to give some history on Top of that, the country of Comoros has had around 20 coups, several of which have been confirmed to be actually incited or funded by France and by some specific French mercenaries. So this is a continuous legacy that has really affected a specific part of the Swahili coast and the Indian Ocean. To your point, France has retained its overseas territories for quite some time and actually rebranded the narrative around many of them. So many people do not know that Martinique and Guadeloupe are still part of France, for example, despite many people studying and being invested in the revolutionary texts that anti colonial texts of people like France Fanon and Ms. Azerre. Right. Just to get some context. And those are countries that are relatively well known in the French artis. Right. So when you move over to East African coast countries that are not as well known despite having heavy production, we're talking, we're talking Mayotte, we're talking Madagascar, Comoros, Seychelles. These are all countries that are legacies of French colonialism, much of which was assigned around the time of the Berlin conference and which continues to be litigated in the century thereafter. With regards to Mayotte, if you, depending on who you ask, more than likely a Camorian academic. A couple of things have happened that have brought us to the situation. One is that there's a lingering perception that there was active interference 50 years ago and actually in the Mahrez, which is the genonym for people from Mayo, the Mahrez independence movement, whether it is to stay with Comoros or just to be an independent island on its own. In the Original Vote In 1974, island by island, the entire country voted 99% to go independent. But the island itself had a 60% dissenting vote, which is significant by the island. But it meant that there was also a 30% independence movement in the second vote which went island by island as part of the tally at that point, mayor had a 99% vote to remain as part of France. In the 50 years since, there has been a lot of political and sociological changes in typical to French post colonialism. Many of the resources in Comoros, which is previously used to be one of the world's largest producers of ylang ylang and vanilla in the world, right next to Madagascar. Fun fact, A lot of vanilla that said is from Madagascar is actually from Comoros, just in case you ever wanted to know. But a lot of those resources, educational resources, medicine, schooling, all of that was raised in the island. Of course much of that, or raised from the three islands, of course much of that has retain its infrastructure in Mayots. And you have to realize that even though we're talking 50 years, for many this is relatively recent history. My mother was born in 1965. She was born as a French national, right. So a lot of the current generation still retains the trauma and memory of that, of that history, and still becomes a very hot topic locally with the rest of my. Not only did they get the independence 1975, which was already. They became part of the French territory, they things continue to escalate locally because of coups that were happening in Comoros that were sponsored by French mercenaries. Then in 1995, things escalated even further with the visa Ballador, which is a visa passed at the time to essentially prevent migration between the islands, effectively providing Comoros to be able to easily go to Mayotte without a visa. Visa process. To go somewhere 30 minutes away that has better resources, of course, is going to seem unseemly and an overwhelming burden for people who are simply trying to live fully lives. And so what you will see is, especially in the neighboring island of Anchouan, which is the one that is closest to Myot, people getting on boats known as Kwasa Cuasas, which are essentially smallish kayaks, right? And I'm talking 10 to 12 people on boats going over to get basic medical resources to deliver children to have access to a better school, leave to have access to maybe come to France. A similar conversation you have globally around people in the global south trying being forced to get closer to the imperial core to get access to the resources that were stripped from them. In this case, the imperial corps just happens to be even closer, which is literally the island right next door. The visa, though, completely changed the apparatus for that and added the resource of border police to actively kill and shoot people who are trying to come onto the island. And so you'll see reports like it's called the Visa of Death. It's called the Islands of Death because literally in the abstract of the Indian Ocean, we have about 10,000 to 20,000 bodies unclaimed that have died in that ocean trying to make it over. To Myott, it is a very complicated authority political issue. But at this point, it's been 50 years, multiple generations of people raised in my own who view themselves as French and part of the greater French political network and do not view themselves as part of the Comorian legacy. And that is a political reality that continues to play out with young people both socially and online. The reason why this is notable to tie in now is that there are dates that are very specific that associate with escalations of these tensions. For example, I mentioned the visa was passed in January 1995. Simultaneously later that year, only a couple months later, in France, in the southern border town of Marseille, which is where the majority of Comorian immigrants live in the French diaspora, a young boy named Ibrahim Ali was actually killed by members of the National Front. It was over 10 members of the National Front who. Who targeted and killed this young boy who was part of France's then emerging rap scene, now quite massive rap scene. His name is actually still memorialized in the Marseille streets. He has his own street dedicated to him as part of the diaspora. That was a highly contested situation. Obviously went to court. The people who are complicit were convicted. But originally Jean Marie Le Pen and the National Front defended the situation and spoke very callously about the actual climate. And what caused all of that, until it became too far to go back to give a specific quote that was actually said at the time was at least this unfortunate incident has brought to everyone's attention the presence in Marseille of 50,000 Comorians. What are they doing here? Right? Until. Yes, yes, until the evidence became indisputable and all of a sudden it was there. Murderers and ETB tried and dealt with. And so just to give you a sense of just the timing of that incident with the. With the actual deployment of the visa and how these tensions have been stoked by the party, even at its more far right, you know of it all, at the time, there was an active investment, it continues to be an active investment in preserving relationships with bio because of its advantage in the Indian Ocean, its access to the Mosaic Channel. There are many reasons why it's advantageous for France to retain a position in that specific area of the Swahili coast and Mozambique Channel. Easy access to Kenya, easy access to Tanzania, easy access to Mozambique, which many may know has recently been invested in analysis of natural gas resources. Mayor is an easy entry point into those border conversations. Right? And so now we have a climate where Mayotte will speak about an immigration issue. And the immigration issue is Comorians who have been forced to try to move closer to the Imperial Court to essentially try to survive. But even though MY is part of France, it's still a federalist system, effectively. And so there are resources that are still not necessarily actively provided to them. Mayotte as an island has actively spoken against the lowering quality of life, lack of access to resources, feeling neglected by France as an overseas department. Last year there was a recent campaign called My swaf, which is essentially my thirsty because of Lack of access to clean and potable water throughout their water system, which is a similar complaint. An issue that Comoros deals with his own government. Right. So just to give you an example of how all these things are intertwined, it continue to escalate on top of each other. And where the National Front fits into the conversation, it's actually fitted into the conversation for 30 years now. And now kind of those initial seedlings have started to bear fruit. Right. Where now Bayota has been used as a test place to look at. Can we sow discord to be able to put in nativist language? Can we sow discord to be able to actually move towards change the constitution? It was originally a position that France rejected despite actually fighting to preserve Mayor as part of the department in a UN resolution vote in the 70s. But this was always a step too far. Now even the centrist party led by my cond. His interior Minister has actively campaigned for this same birthright law which will be a litmus test to see if it can be implemented across France and all the overseas departments. I hope I covered as much as I could in a short amount of time.
- [29:07]
A
That was splendid. Thank you for that.
- [29:09]
B
Education.
- [29:10]
A
I'm left with so many questions that maybe are best kept for another forum. But to ask about this kind of turning point that you're talking about. Do you think that, that these potential constitutional amendments might be a bridge too far? You spoke of how declining material conditions in Mayotte have produced some kind of discontent.
- [29:38]
B
Right.
- [29:39]
A
Is that a discontent that might boil over and become sort of fully blown secessionist sentiments? Because it does seem like, you know, the, these, these French elections arrive at an interesting time in kind of the, the French civil civilizational identity or psyche, for lack of a better phrase. Because I think not only in sort of French overseas departments like Martinique or New Caledonia where you've seen sort of rising protests against France and rising anti French sentiment. And people should check out the great essay we have on the site that speaks about this in Martinique but also in its former colonies. You know, like you've seen the collapse of Franca Fique basically over the last three years with military leaders who've come to power and Burkina Faso in, in Chad, in, in Mali who've kicked the French out. And this is kind of producing an almost existential crisis in, amongst French political elites who feel like their global influence and power is, is waning. So I'm, I'm wondering whether the, the conditions are ripe for, for something similar to, to happen in, in Myott or, or do you think that the, the legacy of France's sort of defanging of independence sentiments is, is just too steep?
- [31:17]
B
I think that it is a complicated question, unfortunately. I think for many local people in Bayot, especially in the towns like Mamudu, for them they don't seem to be in conflict with each other. Challenging France and their failure for being able to continue to support its overseas departments in a significant way, to be able to extend the same quality of life they guarantee people who live on the mainland, I think for many is viewed as part of the political process. That is what you're supposed to do as part of a political process, part of a republic, right? You continue to challenge your representatives to, to enforce the need for a better quality of life as part of just the average days and motions of what you're supposed to do as an involved citizen. The greater question of what the Mahrez feel is immigration is a daily nuisance. They feel like should be eliminated for them. And in that context, they feel like they can get support from France to be able to eliminate them. This is a consistent theme. Although the parties are new for many people, because this is a smaller conflict. The theme is consistent. People are suffering, they're working class, they feel neglected, they feel abandoned, they are fighting for resources. It is much easier to look at the blame of other people who are fighting for resources and look at them as villains, as opposed to looking at people in a shared struggle for autonomy, independence and just self sustaining quality of life. And so what we end up with instead is that poor Comorians are looked at as villains. And that is something that can be acted upon. You can enact violence upon that, you can locally work to negotiate and move that. And France has moved to support them on that. There has been an operation that they have admitted to last year called Operation Wambushu, which is essentially a secret operation to be able to remove Comorians from Myots, right? Either arresting them, detaining them. The problem of course, is that again, we're all from the same ethnic heritage. So what is the distinction as to how you can tell? The big distinction, of course, is how people, people speak, right? We all have our local linguistic stylings of our, of our dialects. And so that's the most obvious way that people can tell. But it has led to many people being falsely arrested who are born and raised multi generationally from Myots. Right? You know, some may be mixed again, like half from Myot, half from Anjouan, because that is a neighboring island. And in a seafaring community, many People would just go back and forth. Right. But at this point it is, it has caused even that code of location tension. Despite that hiccup, there's still a continued desire to invest in removing themselves from the Camorian narrative. And many locals in my are very cognizant or feel that France, both the current party as well as the far right party, will be invested in helping them do that.
- [34:06]
A
That's wild. It's wild, but it's also kind of expressive of a, of a kind of political mode that I think is, is the default one in this age, which is, is exactly as you said, rather than kind of targeting the roots of material discontent, it's far easier to scapegoat effectively.
- [34:31]
B
Exactly.
- [34:32]
A
And go ahead, I was gonna say.
- [34:35]
B
And it happens across the board. You know, living in New York City, the current conversation to working with class, black and brown people is that all these migrants are coming and disrupting and creating violence and taking your jobs and making life unruly. It has led to active protests and historically working class POC neighborhoods. When visibly black, mainly migrants, have been, have been seen visibly South African or Southern African, as well as Central African as well as Central American migrants are seen in the streets. It has caused active vitriol and that is just something that's not local to New York. It is sad to see how easily replicable these scenarios are to be able to cause people who should be united to struggle to kind of turn against each other in, in the aspiration to get the benefits of the imperial corps. But it is quite common.
- [35:25]
A
So. So here's the question then. How come the left, in this climate of, of rising discontent, disillusionment and anger, has been unable to make a lot of inroads? Because as, as you said earlier, what National Rally has done is drawn from the classic right wing populist playbook, which is to present themselves as the spot, the party that speaks to a disaffected working class. And even though they have a very specific profile of person that they're addressing, it's still on, on issues that strike a chord, you know, and, and the question is, you know, how come it, how come the left in France, which is kind of itself pretty fragmented, you know, there are different forces within it. We mentioned the Socialist Party. There's also Jean Luc Menachem's Lafontein Sumis. There are other kind of forces in the mix. Where have they been in this conversation? And yes, they've done decently in this first round. You know, the leftist coalition has come second. But why have they just been unable to sort of capture the moment in the same way that the far right has?
- [36:45]
B
There are a few reasons as to why the two big ones will be that there is a political and media investment. It kind of of questioning the legitimacy of this effort. Right. So as we mentioned, obviously Macron's party, which is supposed to be centrist, left leaning right, like Mahon, defines it as a progressive movement. But he's also publicly espoused that he's willing to let anybody join. There's no membership fees as long as you're willing to support the party. So it kind of leads itself to a little bit of dilution of the objective. Despite the public drubbing that he received, if we could be quite frank about it, the party itself, the Renaissance Party, has been reluctant to openly embrace and openly advocate for coalition building with the left. So to give a sense of some of the statements that have been publicly made as of this taping, one is just saying we remain convinced that our candidates can be the ambitious movement to all Republicans who wish to protect our country for the disastrous projects of the right. And so he's saying the big thing, which is that the right cannot win, but he's not saying the other thing, which is that our best chance is to really unite around the left. And there are a few reasons for that. One is the person you mentioned, Jean. He is viewed by some in the center and in the media as a controversial figure. He was originally part of the Socialist Party, moved over to La Francis Sumise, as you mentioned, which translates into loosely, France Embod. And he has been a political figure for decades as part of France's left, has been very vocal about his policies and it has led to public rebuke. There are kind of certain kind of rules of order with regards to how you play politics in France. And he has consistently defied them and has led him into multiple public faux pas, as well as accusations repeatedly of anti Semitism. And this is going back decades. It's not just recent, but of course in the current global position from the west on the genocide in Gaza, ultimately this revisits itself as a controversial conversation. Right, and so what, he continues to advocate for leftist policies. What happens is that there's a continued framing by the media, by politicians, by opponents who are skeptic of his claim to not be anti Semitic, skeptic of his claims to be for all people, skeptic of his rebuke of the press, which has been longstanding. He has called members of Le Monde, CIA operatives, previously Just to give some sense of how abrasive the conversation has been with Menachem over the past few decades. So while he has actually gotten a lot of support from the youth as well as of course, people who already exist on the right, it has not translated into a public concession of what actually is being enforced and encouraged by the political class. Currently, a sloppy parallel to make, and I'll admit I find it's very sloppy, is kind of, if you want to think about the Sanders movement in 2016, right. When he was the vanguard of the youth movement and seemed to have many advantages, but the Democratic establishment refused to continue to engage with him and support his path to potentially winning the Democratic primary and potentially being a competitive candidate against Trump. That is kind of some of the conversation we're having here. Of course, there's reasons why that doesn't overlap for, especially because of Senate's position on Israel and Palestine for one. But with regards to just the basic nuances of an emergent force in the right supported by the youth, heavy social support, heavy public engagement, yet still rejected by the establishment stalwarts who are trying to cling onto power without veering too far left, um, it's a similar dynamic.
- [40:49]
A
Right, Right. Just seems Mellon, Sean, similarly, like Sanders, like Corbyn, like other correct. Other figures of the so called kind of left wing populist tendency, he just refuses to perform French respectability and correct go down well with the political class. There's also kind of this, this kind of effort, almost near conspiratorial effort by even some in Macron's centrist coalition, or at least centrist or center right French commentators and political figures who make a false equivalence between the right and the left and kind of correct. I can't remember it wasn't the interior ministers, one of the French ministers who probably dumb, I think he said something to the effect of, you know, you know, the far right is scary, but the, the rise of Islamo leftism, which is this.
- [41:46]
B
Oh, yes, yes.
- [41:48]
A
And what, what's, what's behind that? You know why.
- [41:51]
B
Yeah, I'm generally amused by like the kind of Anglophone colloquialisms that have, have, have started to work their way to public French conversation. One is, as you mentioned, Islamo leftism or Islamo Goshisma as well as my other one, which is Wokisma, which is just woke culture essentially. And both of them have been kind of propped up as these boogeymen as the current conversation around the global political reality as well as the local political reality kind of get negotiated by the public. So to give some context, as there have been highly, highly contentious situations the past couple of years, I know a lot of people know about, for example, Justice Proudama, which was about the death of Adam. But in the years since, there have continued to be conversations around police brutality, police violence. And the reality in France is that race and religion are inextricably linked. Right? You know, the brown and black population in France are overwhelmingly Muslim. And so conversations around religion tend to lend themselves a conversation about race and conversations about the vestiges of colonialism. Last year there was a teenager who was killed by police violence which led to days and days of protests which were referred to and reported as riots that scarred the American, the French political reality of people who were frightened by the furor, of people who saw somebody who resembled them killed by the police. That was viewed as a riot in the conversation. Since there have been attacks that have been tied to this boogeyman of Islamo leftism, which is a curious nomenclature just, just to say, because the claims of, of what Islamo leftism is, which is radical Islam, jihadism, whatever you want to call it, there are a bunch of analogues. No matter what political milieu you're in, the actual political claims they make of, of that position essentially align with the far right. It just happens to be rooted in Islamic sentiment. Right? But the Islamophobia persists. Right Then, not long ago as well, there was a stabbing in a school that led to the death of a teacher. And that was viewed as a national crisis, a national incident. Macron and his wife actually attended the funeral of that teacher. And that was viewed as a collective call to action to the rising violence in France. At the same time as all of the rising conversations around Israel, Palestine have happened, people, especially the youth, especially in France, viewing it as a genocide, viewing it as Islamophobia, viewing it as anti Palestinian sentiment. There has been an emphasis the media to document an increase of anti Semitism. They have noted that There have been 1700 anti Semitic attacks in the last year. It's hard to quantify, validate or reject that, because the range of what qualifies anti Semitic, when you go incident by incident takes time. But with regards to that, then it creates this hyper reaction to be able to reject antisemitism and extension and reject people who represent the parties that are supposed to represent that. And it's also part of France's national shame, France's participation in anti Semitic, in an anti Semitic legacy, not just in the National Front, although of course they're. No. But also in their legacy companies also during the occupation of World War II. This is a shame that they have worn for some time. And so finding ways to shred themselves of that includes conveniently continue to malign the disenfranchised working class, black and brown Muslim populations that exist. And so to create that bipolar framing, you have to make then the. This boogeyman of the Islamo left as this inherently evil apparatus that threatens to destroy French universalism, French republican way of life and what that really means.
- [45:44]
A
Yeah, gosh, there's so much that one could, could say about that. But I think it's great that you brought up the motor of now because it allows me to ask a question about, about the role of the French national football team, which, you know, it's, it's the Euros right now. So I think it's an, it's an opportune moment to.
- [46:09]
B
Right, right.
- [46:11]
A
The kind of brokerage role that they play because at the time, you know, Mbappe and other figures of the French football team expressed heartbreak at the murder, but they also played this role of trying to placate angry youths and called for an end to the writing.
- [46:30]
B
Right.
- [46:31]
A
And, and now they're, they're in this position where once again, kind of Mbappe and other figures can't remember who else but, you know, expressing. During the U. Maher Mahi wrote an article about this on the website. Yeah, you check it out. Sort of expressing worry at the rise of the right. You know, maybe not in so many terms, but kind of saying, you know, I want to. It'll be hard to wear the jersey if the jersey doesn't stand for my values, because there's a right, that the, the right will, will be the dominant party in the National Assembly. But the question that I've asked other people is, you know, there is this kind of fear of the far right as expressed over the last couple of weeks. But does that mean support for the political forces that are a counterbalance to that kind of. What role do they play in this conversation? Is there support for figures like Melanchon or if not Melancholy and figures from the Socialist Party kind of.
- [47:37]
B
Right.
- [47:38]
A
What is their location in all of this?
- [47:40]
B
Well, I'll put it this way. I feel like if you were to reach out to that currently on a dm, he's probably not going to get back to you. And it's not just because he doesn't want to talk about going to Real Madrid. Right. You know, I will say that many of the cultural ambassadors in sports and music and other forms of entertainment have been to put between a rock and a hard place in the last year or so, where they themselves have been the subject of really targeted attacks by the far right and now are in a position where they're viewed as cultural ambassadors, not just of France, which is a position that they're invoked at convenience. Right. You know, but also of these disenfranchised populations of young, brown and black French people. And for them, for the young, for the youth. They view what is happening right now as a call to action, a need to stand, a need to mobilize as influencers, as anybody with any sort of social capital to really vocalize the crisis. Right. Like I said, the actual vote was a real big shock to the nervous system. The cultural ambassadors themselves have really struggled. To give a recent example, Ayanaka Murat, who's like the most popular French pop singer out of France, had to deal with a month of dedicated attacks about her being selected to be able to sing at the opening moments of the Olympic, questioning her legitimacy as a French national, questioning whether she really is from Bali, whether she really speaks French, whether she's too ghetto, too violent, a baby, other things. Of course, conveniently, the final people who were selected were Aya and Celine Dion, who I love Celine Dion dearly. But conveniently, there was no debate over the fact that she's actually Quebecois, right? So to give an example of just the nature of absurdity that she had to deal with. And her fans stood up for her. Her fans pumped, demobilized for her, admitted to American press and made it to global conversation, the racist and far right attacks that she was dealing with. And so, in turn, now that we're at this real big point of inflection for France right now going into the next few years, people are eager to have people like Mbappe, Ayan, Nakamura, some of their favorite artists like Tiacola, Franglish, Daju, all of these artists, they would like them to stand up and say similar things. And as an in kind conversation about, we fought for you, now fight for us. It has taken some time. It is an evolving conversation, as I mentioned, but there was a while where there was protracted silence and the youth were publicly angry about it, publicly shaming their fellow influencers, publicly targeting major people like Mbappe, Even Victor Wamanyama, who is, I believe, currently in San Antonio, so tried his best to be removed from. From the situation, to say something and to really speak to the public about the criticality of what is upcoming. And slowly, there have been a Shift in tone. Aya has recently put a statement essentially saying, I've always been aware of how dangerous racism is in this country. I recognize now that as a powerful musician, I used to use my voice more. It speaks truth to power. And we all need to go to the poll. Right. Similarly, I've seen statements from Franglish, who's a very popular French artist, as well as other artists, start to come forward. I don't believe Tamaya Elijah Mbappe has said anything specifically yet about the upcoming election. But to be fair to them, they are between a rock and a hard place. The one, the party that protected them from much of the public fervor was Mahon's party, right. Which is the Renaissance Party. And so many feel like a lot of it is a little bit of political gamesmanship, right. Where you know, you don't want to publicly disavow the party that you. That has actively protected you as you have risen in status and made sure that you still are recognized as part of the French political cultural establishment. Right. But on top of that, it's also the fact that they are intimately familiar with their notoriety and profile, what will happen if they speak. And some of them, if I were to estimate or assume, are deal with a little bit of trauma from that. Right. You know, continuing to deal with level of hater harassment they have. And yes, it is their. Is their time to step up and step out. But, you know, they're balancing the disappointment of their fans with also their personal safety and deciding how to participate in this community project.
- [51:58]
A
So what do you think might happen on July 7, especially as it now is mostly going to be a two horse race because different politicians from both Macron's centrist coalition and Melancholy's leftist coalition have said that in constituencies where their candidates are in third place, they'll happily drop off to give the most competitive non national rally candidate a chance. And so it looks like it's going to be a battle to the. To the wire, do you think?
- [52:37]
B
Right, right.
- [52:38]
A
Yeah. Who do you think might edge out? Whom do you think national rallies kind of trajectory is, Is, is. Is going to kind of get better? Is it going to reverse slightly turnout for the first round with 67% of registered voters, Is turnout going to be low? Is it going to be higher? If it's higher, who does it benefit? If it's lower, who does it benefit? What are the permutations of what might fall?
- [53:04]
B
Right. If I were to assume, I would believe that one, the turnout will be higher. Right. Now that has surfaced to this level of national conversation and I think a higher turnout will only benefit the parties in the center and the left. The negotiations will come down to who concedes to who, what alliances are made before going to the second round. Right. Who is going to be willing to fall off the ballot. That is the public negotiation that is continuing to happen. As you mentioned, some representatives have openly said, I'm going to step back, let nfp, which is the far left, or not far left, but just left, the Islamo left.
- [53:41]
A
Shamira. I believe those are the terms and usage.
- [53:45]
B
Right, right, right. These lava grishees. But right. So letting them, you know, stand, you know, stand tall and make this fight. I think regardless, this comes out as a victory for the national rally. Right. Regardless of if they win, regardless of if Le Pen's administration actually becomes, you know, becomes elected to actually work with Macron in the last three years, the fact they have made such significant inroads from essentially being looked at as a national joke and a nuisance about 15 to 20 years ago to where they are now, which is like a legitimate competitor in the national conversation with legitimate legislative influence and political influence, they're going to come out on top regardless for where they have been in the last 10 years. Right. They're going to get a significant percentage of the votes. They will be people who need to be acknowledged. As legislative negotiations come on in the next couple of years, I think the fight between the left and the center is going to come down to the wire. And it really depends on which politicians are willing to do what they're subscribed to do as politicians, which is meet the needs of the people. Right. That, I think is the ultimate intention of a politician. There's the desire to cling on to power and there's the desire to be a public servant. Which one will actually win out? We'll find out in the next few days what that truth will be for many of these politicians.
- [55:04]
A
Shamira, thank you very much for coming onto the podcast.
- [55:07]
B
Thank you so much for having me.
- [55:10]
A
A reminder to all of our listeners. I've been chatting to Shamira Ibrahim, who is a Brooklyn based writer by way of Harlem, Canada and East Africa, particularly the Comoros, as she made her bona fides clear in this episode who explores identity, cultural production and technology. And she's also the Francophone regional editor for Africa Is a Country. You have been listening to the AIAC podcast, A reminder to like and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. But most Importantly, check out africasacountry.com for new writing about politics and culture on the continent and elsewhere from an African and left perspective. We'll see you next time.