The music is not yours

Summary

Podcast Summary: The AIAC Podcast – “The music is not yours”

Date: April 21, 2026
Host: Africa Is a Country (with Will Shoki)
Guests: Dami Ajay (poet, music critic, psychiatrist), Maker, Emeka

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Episode Overview

This episode of The AIAC Podcast delves deep into the evolution, intricacies, and global phenomenon of Afrobeats, juxtaposed with its historical antecedent, Afrobeat. Renowned poet, music critic, and psychiatrist Dami Ajay joins hosts Maker and Emeka for a wide-ranging conversation that covers the personal, the political, and the industrial forces shaping Nigerian and African music. Central themes include the generational shifts in musical taste and priorities, cultural meaning versus commercial value, the global versus local stakes of Afrobeats’ success, and the transformative—but precarious—role industry, diaspora, and critics play in telling these stories.

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1. Introduction & Guest Background

• [00:17-01:39] Dami Ajay introduces himself
  • Studied medicine and psychiatry in Nigeria, moved to the UK.
  • Discovered a passion for writing and music criticism during medical school.
  • Sees music as generational expression; grew up amidst diverse musical influences, currently follows Afrobeats’ journey.
  • Quote: “...music as a form of expression, every generation has sort of music that is speaking, that speaks to them.” [03:45]

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2. Tracing Afrobeats: History, Transition & Contestation

The Afrobeat/Afrobeats Distinction

• [07:53] Dami Ajay: “...the name Afrobeats became the catch all phrase to describe contemporary dance music coming from... Nigeria, Ghana and, and their diaspora in from 2011. So it was a name that was foisted on, on everyone.”
• Explains that naming and branding come externally, often after Western industry attention, not from internal consensus or community decisions.
• [10:41] Defining Moments:
  • Afrobeats’ popularity became undeniable around 2007-08—university parties shifted entirely to Nigerian sounds.
  • The transition also marked by diasporic influence and streaming technology.

Periods of Global Musical Attention

• [15:48] Dami Ajay: Notes cyclical, wave-like nature of global attention—boom in the ‘70s matched economic abundance, declined post-80s.
  • “...the global pop scene is always looking for what is hot, what is nice.”
  • In the 2000s-2010s, digital distribution, diaspora, and streaming led to a new boom. Still, warns against overestimating permanence.
• [16:54] Notable Quote: “You understand? You understand these guys were balling...”

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3. Globalization, Industry Dynamics & Diaspora Power

International Label Deals & Diaspora Influence

• [23:33] Key touchpoints:
  • The class of 2012 (Burna Boy, Wizkid, Davido, Tiwa Savage) breaking into international label deals marked the acceleration of Afrobeats’ global standing.
  • Diasporic communities (especially in the UK, US) have turned Afrobeats into a point of ancestral and cultural pride.
• [26:11] On Predecessors and Industry Building:
  • Earlier icons like D’banj, 2Face, etc., paved the way but current stars capitalized on new infrastructure and diaspora-fueled demand.

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4. Present Challenges & The Future of Afrobeats

Creativity Stagnation and Amapiano Influence

• [31:53] Dami Ajay: Notes industry-wide anxiety; music quality and innovation have dipped, and industry is seeking the “next sound,” with inspiration from South Africa’s amapiano.
• Quote: “...the creativity is also stuck... So there's a lot of. There's a sense of stockness, as it were, in the music genre.” [34:50]

Capitalism & Artistic Extraction

• Afrobeats’ global integration brings risks of dispossession; “capitalism would always exploit in its own way, take what it needs to take... and leave you iron dry.” [36:50]
• Current conditions mirror other colonial supply chains—profits and control move offshore.

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5. Meaning & Messaging in Today’s Music

Nostalgia for Fela & The Quest for “Message”

• [39:35] Maker: Laments the lack of explicit social/political messaging in contemporary Afrobeats compared to Fela.
• [43:01] Dami Ajay: Points out—messaging and societal values have eroded alongside broader social decay. Pop music globally isn’t message-driven; it mirrors its society.
  • “We are in a place where there's slop everywhere, you know... People no longer use music for messaging.” [41:10]

Preserving Vernacular Narratives

• Suggests there are still artists depicting social realities (“Afro adura”—QDot, Shee Vibes, Naira Marley) who echo early American hip-hop in narrating urban experience.

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6. Industry Structure: Then and Now

Then: The 1970s

• Record labels owned by foreign interests but with significant autonomy and infrastructure (Nigerian offices, local A&R).
• Economic downturns and regulatory changes in the 80s led to industry withdrawal and collapse.

Now: The 2010s–Present

• International labels “back in Lagos again” [53:50], with a new crop of A&R and industry execs (often diaspora Nigerians).
• Music production is decentralized but profits, rights, and infrastructure are globally managed—“the money doesn't trickle down to Nigeria.” [55:20]
• Quote: “...this version of the music boom and Nigeria's globalized, global... has mirrored a little closer that classic supply chain dynamic...” [50:54]

The Streaming Revolution

• Streaming has further siphoned value; music “ownership” is more ephemeral and curated by tech giants.
• [61:10] Dami Ajay: “What you listen to online on your phone is not real. They're playing for you.”

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7. Literature, Criticism, and the Politics of Cultural Production

Literature and the Marketplace

• The “biggest patrons of African literature are not Africans” [63:20]—mirrors music in terms of whose interests are primarily served.
• The global reception of Nigerian cultural production often tracks current political winds rather than intrinsic quality.

The Critic's Role & Pathways

• Dami Ajay describes his critical work as first for himself, then for those who share his compulsion.
• No clear career path—critics get co-opted into PR, A&R, or influencing, rarely advancing criticism itself.
• [67:37] Key Quote: “...the real role of a writer is to speak to the, to their times...”

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8. On Poetry, Mischief, and Multiple Identities

• Dami Ajay views mischief as central to his poetry; often misread as simply sensual but with deeper political resonance.
• Professional psychiatric training brings empathy and rigor—skills which travel into writing but not necessarily vice versa.
• [79:32] Memorable line: “The most important thing to me as a poet is, is mischief...”
• [85:00] Emeka (quoting Dami): “Finding meaning in Afrobeats is as efficient as fetching water from a well with a basket.”

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9. Recommended Artists & Where to Look For “Meaning”

• Q Dot, Shee Vibes, Mobad, Naira Marley—artists working with street language, religious influences, urban realities.
• Advised to look beyond the mainstream for narratives that address societal issues.

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10. Memorable Quotes

• Dami Ajay (on Afrobeats and Capitalism):

  “Capitalism would always exploit in its own way, take what it needs to take... and leave you iron dry. So if you... did not imagine... that a day will come where you would just come to work and they'll be like, well, we are so sorry, nothing... then you are the fool.” [36:50]

• On the persistent myth of Fela:

  “The success of you, even Emeka saying that there's a relationship between Fela and the new guys is the success of the mythologies that has been given to us.” [43:16]

• On the critic's audience:

  “I feel... when I was doing my work, some people then came and said, oh, Dami, how about you come and write for us?... So my work is my work.” [67:37]

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11. Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:17-04:38 — Dami Ajay’s biography and entry into music criticism
• 07:53-14:09 — Origins and periodization: Afrobeat vs. Afrobeats
• 15:48-22:30 — The cyclical nature of global attention; economics of the boom
• 23:33-31:53 — Globalization, diaspora, and international record deals
• 31:53-39:35 — Creative stagnation, competition from amapiano; future trends
• 39:35-48:43 — Messaging, meaning, and social commentary in music
• 49:03-57:18 — The business of music, industry structure, streaming, and labor
• 62:07-67:37 — Literature vs. music; the critic’s role and audience
• 72:04-82:58 — The poet’s mischief, psychiatry, and critical writing
• 85:00-86:48 — Conclusion, farewells, and hopes for future gatherings

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12. Tone and Language

The discussion is informal yet erudite, often self-deprecating, full of inside jokes and friend banter, blending personal anecdotes with sharp industry and political commentary—a cadence reflecting the unscripted, deep-thinking, but accessible ethos of the AIAC Podcast.

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13. Recommended Listening/Reading

• For critical written perspective, readers are pointed to Dami Ajay’s poetry (“A Woman’s Body Is a Country”) and his essays on music for publications like Africa Is a Country and AfroCritic.

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14. Closing Note

The episode concludes with reflections on the necessity of finding and cultivating meaning, both in art and in criticism, even—and especially—when the music is not “yours” in the era of globalized industry. As Dami puts it: what keeps him engaged is fundamentally the obsession with music, mischief, and the hope that connection, resonance, and understanding can still be forged—despite, or perhaps because of—the whirlwind.

Transcript

[Emeka]

All right, over to you then.

[Maker]

All right. Okay. So, yeah, this is unfortunately, your boys again. And on this week. What was I gonna say? This week, on this episode. All right, we have as a guest in the house a poet and, you know, a music critic. At least that's, you know, one or two of the hearts that he wears. His name is Dami Ajay. Well, full disclosure, Dami is my guy. So we go. We go way back. And one of the things that we've tried to do is to get people like Damien on. On the show. So, yeah, so we have Damien as a guest, and we'll be discussing everything from poetry to Afrobeats. But I guess, you know, like, it's. It's like, like it's the staple on the show. Dami, we'll just leave you to. To. To introduce yourself and tell us more about those other hearts that, you know, that you wear that. That I haven't mentioned. Okay. Yeah.

[Dami Ajay]

Hi, everyone. Lovely to be here. Thank you for the invite. Emeka. And said, yeah, it's. It's an interesting day for me because I actually never have to introduce myself. So, yes, like you said, I do a few things. I studied medicine and surgery and then I trained in psychiatry in Nigeria, moved to the UK six years ago, and I've been working as a psychiatrist since then. Whilst in medical school, I discovered that I really wanted to be a writer. And I found. I found inspiration in the works of the likes of Chekhov and Femi Okewole, who wore both arts easily. And then I became a music critic because I found that I was interested in. In reading about music. I mean, I was very much interested in talking about music, but I found that there was not so much of those sort of convers occurring. So I found myself, you know, writing as a way to write that, so to speak, in quotes. And. And soon enough, people started paying attention to what I was saying. And, yeah, I got a few gigs and got paid to do it. And as you know, money is sweet. So I found. I found myself, you know, oh, this is some good passive income. Someone pays you to do what you love, to do what you would have done otherwise. So that quickly got on. And then I found that, you know, music as a form of expression, every generation has sort of music that is speaking, that speaks to them. And I think my generation, generation of Nigerians who grew up in the 80s and 90s, we can say that we're. We're a very unique generation because we have all of this music, you know, all sort of influences of Music from our parents, from America. And we were able to fuse all of that into what is ours or what we call Afrobeats or what we were forced to call Afrobeats. And I can say that I've just followed the journey of Afrobeats since I first said it. First time on radio to. To date. What else? I'm married. I live in London with my wife and six houseplants. Yeah. Have family scattered around. Family and friends scattered around the world. So I'm very interested in what's going on everywhere. Including what's going on in the Gulf. Yeah. And of course in Nigeria as well, where banditry is. You know, I mean, just the whole sense of crime is a bit worrying. So I'm interested in everything. And I use Twitter a bit too much. Yeah.

[Maker]

Where you've been known to get into some. Some drama, You know.

[Emeka]

Yeah.

[Maker]

It comes. It comes with the terrain. Nice. Thank you for that, you know, nice, you know, robust introduction. I'm. Yeah. As someone who has followed your. Your work, even though that, you know, I must confess that, you know, because of time these days, I haven't followed it, you know, as keenly in maybe the last one or two years. But I know, I know that, you know, you have published, you know, a chapbook and, and two books of poetry, if I'm. If I'm not wrong. Oh, three. Yeah. Ah, okay. I need to catch up. But, but, you know, before, you know, we. We get into. Into those, those. Those works, you know, one of them, you know, which always fascinates me because of the title. It's interesting that you, you know, you mentioned Afro Bits, you know, that, you know, you know, you. In your, in your introduction, you spoke almost exclusively like, you know, music critics. Criticism was. Was like, you know, it was like, you know, your number one passion. But so just to stick to that, you know. Yeah. You know, I can relate to a lot of what you're saying, even though I'm not in. As invested in music, you know, as. As you are. I. I know that, you know, Afrobeats is something that we can. Bits now, not. Not the bit of fella, you know, but is there anything that you can tell us, you know, something in, you know, some of those insights that you usually churn out, you know, about what moment defined, you know, this seeming transition, because it seems like there's something still a bit of friction, you know, and people haven't come to grips with the fact that, you know, Afrobeats might be one thing and Afrobeats another. Some of that can be gleaned from, you know, some article that you published on Africa as a country recently, you know, where you try to wade into the friction between Femi Kuti and what's his name now? Sorry, and, and whiskey. Yeah. So, yeah. So what do, what do you think the defining. If you, if you had to say, where would you say, what would you say that defining moment? I mean, I mean, I mean from, in terms of the transition from, you know, Afrobeat, that fellow is a big influence on, and, and what's happening on the Nigerian scene these days and whether even what's happening on this Nigerian scene has any real meaning, you know, beyond the monetary value or the startup. Yeah, yeah.

[Dami Ajay]

I mean, well, that's. You packed a lot of things into the question. As a poet, I always like to be short, you know, but yes, I'll try my best to break it down as best as I can. So of course the, there's always been this, would I say dialogue or conversation or controversy around Afrobeat fellas, Afrobeat and Afrobeats with the S. And, and, and the controversy is that, you know, the, the name Afrobeats became the catch all phrase to describe contemporary dance music coming from, well, coming out of Nigeria, Ghana and, and their diaspora in from 2011. So it was a name that was foisted on, on everyone. But because of the collectivist nature of how the music industry and most cottage industries emerge in Nigeria, people just have an interest and they're doing something and then they begin to gather themselves around. I don't think there was a lot of thought given to oh, what are we going to call this? What name would, would stand. Because also as much as people talk about creativity in Nigeria, there's also a lot of individualism in it. And you can date that back to say the, the likes of the travel tfr, the thespians like Kukunde and co, they all had their own thing and everybody tried to do their own thing. And even if you take that into say the 70s, which was as soon as they were the golden era of Nigerian music, so to speak, after the civil war, of course, you'd see that a lot of the big musicians who played live music had their own, they had their own band, they would have their own record label, then they had their own joints or club where they play the music and all of that. So I think a bit of that makes it difficult. And everybody calls their own music its own thing and they try to define what their music is separately from others. So it's difficult to have a Name to agree on a name. And usually when the music then catches the attention of the west, it gets a name foisted on it, so to speak. Something because you need a name to market things. So I think that was where the name Afrobeats came from. Of course, the music emerged after Fela passed away or began to emerge around that. No one is really clear on when you can see all this sound began particularly. But we knew when the sound became something that could no longer be ignored. Because when it started it was. No one really took it that seriously. I used to tell people that for me as a person, the time I began to realize it clipped on me. Actually the time I began to realize that, well, you have to start taking this music very seriously was maybe say 2007, 8, when suddenly when campus on campus and DJs would then play an entire set of just Nigerian music and then they would put Maybe like the 90s hip hop splash splatter it in between. So it was just one day I woke up because what used to happen before was that you'd have a DJ played an entire set of hip hop music and all of that. And at the end of their set, when they play Afrobeats or play E Dris Abdu Karima and all of those, or play any sort of Nigerian music, it means that the guy is going to finish his set in the next five to 10 minutes. So it's almost like signaling you to start getting, getting your bag, your bags packed. But around 2007, 2008, it changed. You'd go to a party and you, you may not even hear one music, no hip hop or all of those sort of things like one that is brought in from America. So that was when for me, I felt that it began to be a thing. And that's a few years ago. I mean, I think I'm revealing my religion now. So yeah, that for me, I think that's a more personal way to describe it. Obviously we, we don't do a lot of archiving, we don't do a lot of history taking or even stock taking. People do most of those things personalize the. Their own preference, their own histories. So those are the difficulties. But I guess even in answering the question, I've also prioritized my own history as well, first instance. So yeah, I'm just trying to say that that's very normal for us to do. But I think we can say and we can agree that I think that the music began to make meaning and catch the attention of the west or just even Catch the attention of everybody around. When the boy brand started to break in, say, 2004, that's where I would say, you can say, well, this thing now began to emerge as something that we had to take seriously. Add that to. To the infamous controversy between Idris Abdul Karim and 50 Cent or the organizers, because, I mean, the story, as it said, no one really knows if those things happen in the way it's described, but we know that there was an altercation. And, you know, it was almost like the. It's. It's like what you get when people unionize. But in this instance, it wasn't a union. It was just one guy, 50, Idris Abdul Karim, who was clear in saying that, well, you guys have to take me seriously. You have to give me everything that you're giving this international star. Because previously, what used to happen was that they just give you a platform and say, well, you come and open for this person. You know, you should be happy that we're even asking you to do so. Yeah. So I think that's a more. A more clear period that we can say, okay, all of us agree that, yes, this is it. But for me as a person was when I went to parties in school, and then all of a sudden, I didn't have to hear Nelly's. Was that song that was very popular that year, Ride with Me. Or.

[Emeka]

Okay, okay, I was gonna say nothing here.

[Dami Ajay]

Oh, or where the party at? No, I think. I think Otin is right with Me is really the nearly song that blows everyone. It blows up the party. Everybody goes crazy when you hear it because of just the way it starts, you know?

[Emeka]

No, okay, fair enough.

[Maker]

Yeah, yeah,

[Emeka]

no, no fair. That's a series of interesting answers. And, you know, how you've open your biography into it is also quite interesting and relevant, I would say, because the development of Afrobeats and the narration of Afrobeats, which you've been central part of, have been intertwined. Right. And I think you're suggesting some of that in your. In your answer quite clearly. And so we. So I do want to come back to some of the biographical elements of the story. Yeah, but you. You were talking, you know, in talking about periodization, you talked about the 70s moment and led me to think that, is there an extent or led me to ponder whether there's an extent to which this is a bit of a fad, like, whether. Whether we have waves of global attention that focus on Nigeria sometimes and then go to some other place and then come back and. And, you know, if. If you Feel that that might be the case then is it so much that Afrobeats has arrived and is here to stay or that would we just happen to be in a moment that might also pass? You know what I mean? If that makes sense.

[Dami Ajay]

Yeah, I mean, you're right. I mean the world is talking about AI bubble at the moment and a lot of it is, you know, true, so to speak. You know, And I think that you can also extend that analogy to, to music and pop, Pop music in in particular. The global pop scene is always looking for what is art, what is, what is hot, what is nice. The record labels are always looking for what to sell, what can sell, what's novelty that they can use. And yes, you're right. I mean, I think the 70s boom in Nigeria was our. As a consequence of Nigeria's economic, economic abundance, so to speak. And you know, you're reading, I didn't live through the 70s, I wasn't born so. But you would hear everyone talk about how things were. I mean, my father went to universities in the 70s. And when the guy talks about the kind of life they were living, you know, like you have concierge in your hostel, you had good food in the cafeteria, you were paid.

[Emeka]

Yeah, they have half chicken in the cafeteria.

[Dami Ajay]

You understand? You understand these guys were balling.

[Maker]

And then,

[Dami Ajay]

you know, there are some record label executives who are saying that, well, they were doing millions of records in Nigeria at the time. And then you have likes of you just. If you listen to the music from that era, there was something unusual going on. Like you listen to like the, the juju musicians, they were so expansive. You know, the music was like. It had an orchestral feel to it. You had Sonia there with maybe like six, seven guitars, you know, interlocking rhythms. And the thing goes on, on a medley for like 20, 22, 23 minutes. These guys had night parties where, you know, the parties, they do a party in the day, stop that, go and rest, then come back at say 10, and then from 10, then 10 to like 7am in the morning, you know, they are.

[Emeka]

Sounds like, sounds like lifestyle right now.

[Dami Ajay]

So. Yeah, so I think that that era was Nigeria's own golden age because there was a lot of money, they just fought a war. So everyone was, you know, I mean there was some sort of. Everyone was being subdued, so to speak, by maybe the horrors that the war brought to them. And then they had all of this money and you know, it was, that it was a Nigerian thing. But in the 80s, however, there were situations where, you know, like the Bob Marley had passed away and his music was quite successful. Island Records wanted to use. The wanted was we're looking for. Actively looking for a new person to step into Bob Marley's shoes. They thought that. I mean, what. I mean what is said because I A lot of things, you can't fact check those things. But they have been repeated so many times that they've become their own myths. Yeah, the myth is that they were looking for Fella. They couldn't get Fella because you know, fella was Fella. And you know, they tried for Sonia Day Sonya. They was of course open to the idea. It was signed to Mango and D3 albums with them through the 80s. And in that period he he to America toward Europe, played Glastonbury, played in Japan, you know. But after that, after maybe like four years, they dropped him. Mango dropped him because it wasn't given the. The returns to investments was not significant enough for him. And it wasn't just Sonny that had that juju break, you know. Shegun Adewale was younger, was half of the band or the duo Shegun Shino Adewale, which was Shino Pitas and Shegu Adewale. He also was taken on by stairs at the time. It was around the same time that Paul Simon was doing his thing with South African music. And then Graceland came out shortly afterwards. So there was an attention. There was a. There was. Africa was catching the attention of the west at the time. I mean, grand Graceland won best album of the year for the Oscars, so to speak. So there was that attention there at the time, no doubt. But obviously that faded away. And if you remember the 90s, yeah, there wasn't so much going on for Africa and the global scene, except maybe Mazejek F I don't think was that big a success, mostly because there was no. There was lack of consistency and you can blame that or whatever, but mostly his own health, as it were. Of course you have someone like Dr. Alba who was big in the Euro European scene and circuit. So I would say that every so often there's always one person popping, but not in a while have we had what happened in the last maybe six, seven years. And I think a lot of that you can attribute it to just globalization, technology, you know, but, but, but it is. It could be sustained for a while. Maybe the best we've had it. But I don't think these things last forever. You know, there's always something new to catch people's attention. And as much as we like to think that Afrobeats is the next thing is a sliced bread. It's not the most sophisticated music ever. It isn't. You know, it isn't. And that's the truth, you know, So I think that attention, that novelty has started to wear off. And I think that the musicians themselves, instead of doubling down and maybe, you know, leaning into musical traditions that, you know, that they could really rely on to make it a more formidable sound, they've also just sort of gotten into this attitude of just say whatever they want and getting the paycheck. And I think that was what I was trying to say in that essay as well, that, you know, you have Whiskey and Shake giving you a 4, 4, 4 song EP, which is really underwhelming. Underwhelming? Like underwhelming to the point where you're like, okay, it looks like maybe we're. Maybe we're done here. Maybe. Maybe it's that. It's like that DJ set where you play Africa. You've come to the end of the show.

[Maker]

Yeah.

[Emeka]

Maybe it's time to go home.

[Dami Ajay]

Exactly.

[Emeka]

I mean, if before we go home, you know, it would be helpful to zoom in a bit on this wave, if that's what we want to call it, of attention. Especially since, in a way, global attention is part of what defines this wave of. You've said. Yeah, Nigerian attention to the fact that we're listening to our own music more. But there's something about someone else valuing it that somehow has also increased its value at home. At least that's one way to look at it. So I'm curious about how you would define the defining moments of this wave. You know, not sort of a extensive history of Afrobeats, but I mean, what for you were. Were the important sort of touch points, you know, that sort of.

[Dami Ajay]

Yeah.

[Emeka]

That marked that this was happening and gaining momentum. And then maybe the momentum started slowing. Maybe not. I guess we'll talk a little bit more about where to from here.

[Dami Ajay]

Right. So I've always felt that the. The generation of musicians who all released albums in. From 20, in 2012, by 2012, they released their first albums. That generation is. They've. They have like an outsized personality. It's almost like thinking of the class of 66. Yeah. And that's like the military guys, the equivalent for Afrobeat. So you have born a boy. You have. I mean by album, I mean EP albums and everything. Because I tried to find a. A thin line to cross through every. Every one of them. Bona Boy David do. Who else? Yeah, Whiskey. Yeah, Whiskey how can I forget Whiskey? You know, so. And all of those guys and sometimes for. For just being appropriate, you know, I'd say to a savage as well, you know. And that generation, they. The moment that they crossed into getting international label deals, I mean. And all of them will be staggered, isn't it? You know, but once they all got international label dues, I think that was when that, that was the turning point. You know, it wasn't successful immediately for all of them. Like S for the other from the other side which was Whiskey's attempt at galvanizing what's. What had happened with you know, Drake and all of that wasn't that great. But you had one, one dance which was a big song with Drake. And the moment you had like the, the international musicians start to get into, you know, get into Afrobeats as it were, like trying out the styles. You know, you had the Justin Bieber's, you had the Ed Sheerans, you know, and all of that. You. I think that was really where you could say that the time the, the. The. When things began to go crazy. Of course you have to give special mention to. To Oliver Swiss which conquered United Kingdom.

[Emeka]

Well, yeah, you know, I actually wanted to interrupt briefly and, and. And ask you about the kind of like the, the. The crew that came maybe slightly before that. You know, whether you know the folks they would consider their egg bonds like Deban maybe also too Face and you know the plantation Bo would you were those people. You wouldn't call them the pioneers is it or is it whether the kind of John the Baptists that prepared the way kind of thing.

[Dami Ajay]

So I think, you know, I think that you needed to galvanize that. So that's what I think these guys were able to do. Like all of it was. Was hitting back to back to back to back. So it created a sort of attention so to speak what those guys did. Of course you can't, you can't sleep on. On what they. On the work that they did. You know, I mean they were. A lot of them went to America. They were trying to get into contact with you know, the American musicians paying them for features and all of this. It was hard work. They also knew, I mean they knew that that was a direction to. To go and they pursued it. I mean look at someone like say Olamide who of the five that we spoke about earlier was the most, it wasn't. It was the most reluctant to initial initially go international. But even he, you know, he's still trying to, you know, he tried to still get into that. And a lot of what he did was, oh, let me build, build. And he did the building that he needed to do, you know, expanded his own skill sets. And he was able, he was able to deliver someone like a, whose rise, meteoric rise is, is actually it almost looks like you guys like, like, it's like a form of magic, really. Yeah, what, what that guy has been able to achieve. So. Yeah, so I think, I think a lot of it, people pay it forward. It's the learn from your predecessors. You take a bit of what they've given you and then put it forward. But I think that what that this generation had was that they were able to galvanize, you know, they were able to galvanize and a few other things were happening at the same time. There was also the brain drain. So there was a lot of people pushing into the diaspora, like myself, you know. Yeah. So there were all of these people as well, which meant that these guys had a bigger, they had, they had like ambassador, so to speak. You know, all over the world people were listening to their stuff who were influencing. And then also. Yeah, that, that sort of builds like the, the cultural capital for it. Because in the diaspora, for a long time, Africans, native Africans, we would rather not associate with. I mean, these are stories that I even still hear that, oh well, they would rather prefer to, for people to think that they were from the Caribbean and all of that. But Afrobeats suddenly became something that they could all identify with, a source of pride, you know, ancestral pride and all of that. So all of that too also, I think were happening at the same time. Usually one thing isn't happening at the same one. Not, not just one thing is happening. Maybe three, four, five, six things are happening at the same time. And I think that' galvanized it to of course, also streaming, streaming, streaming, streaming, streaming made it also easier for us to cross several barriers, so to speak. Because at this point in time, the, the statistics can't lie. You see where it's coming from and then you pursue it, you know. Yeah, I'm sure that, I'm sure Maker liked what I just said.

[Maker]

Yes.

[Dami Ajay]

Is a data person, so he claims to be.

[Maker]

I, I, I, I, I'll get you, don't worry. Before this episode runs out, you know, but it's, it's interesting, you know, the set of answers that you give Damian. It's as, you know, it's, it's stuff that excites me especially because you, you did things. Yeah. And so in the lead up to, to My next question, let me just say that I know exactly where I was when I found out that, you know, you can't sleep on Afrobeats anymore. And it was with, you know, just to buttress something that said mentioned it was with the Banji's Oliver Twist. And this was in London, you know, sometime in maybe 2010 in, in a club that you could have said was more of like an all white club. You know, I, I can imagine and I, I can still, you know, not imagine. I can feel, you know, you know, the same way I felt when that, when that happened. You know, it was towards the end of the club, everybody was seated and I didn't even know the bits, you know, the intro bits of the song. But you know, I just realized that people around me, white girls, white guys, a bunch of people were already jumping. This is like maybe 3:00am you know, so I, I take that bit. I also take the bit that, you know, you say that a lot of how Afrobeats has evolved is not disconnected from you know, the big diasporan. Yeah. Population that, that Nigeria does. Does have and you know, and Ghana.

[Dami Ajay]

And Ghana.

[Maker]

Okay. And you know, so maybe, maybe even Africa in general because you know, you, because you, you find people from all sorts, all parts, you know, all sorts, all different parts of Africa vibing to, you know, this, this Nigerian thing. But I guess, you know, this, you know, to keep it short so that you can answer what, what do you think? You know, what do you think might be the margin trends or the future trends of Afro Bits? And you know, maybe, maybe this will sound a bit cheeky. Do you also think that, you know, Afro Bits might or is even being displaced by aman piano, you know. You know, I don't know. I wonder how you. You would answer that.

[Dami Ajay]

Well, so I, I wrote a piece for Afro Afro Critic for their reports recently and I think I addressed some of the questions that you're saying because everyone is also. Everyone is a bit edgy, you know, especially people in the music industry because not since I shake do you have like a big star. And it's been a while since Ashakir was released. No one released though was set upon the world, so to speak. And the music itself is not doing as well globally is also not like the albums are not really the music quality of the music somehow as has been woeful in the last two, three years. So there is. That gives everyone a bit of pause, so to speak. Because in terms of the money that has been pumped in into the industry, you have the big players Here with big checks and big accounts and, you know, they. Everyone who comes to this sort of party, they expect return on their investment. And if the numbers are not going okay, what's. What would. What they usually do. I mean, if a corporation finds that they don't have money again, they will just sack everybody now that they don't need, give them. Give them redundancy. So there is that concern about it. So I think. I think over the years, what has happened, or what we call Afrobeats, which is really popular Nigerian music, is that it finds a new trend to sit on. And what has happened since say 2019, around. Just pre. Pre Covid or around Covid. Is that COVID 19. That is, that era is that we began to experiment with. We began to experiment with South African and my piano. And, you know, a lot of our producers who are really the. Would you say the night soy men of Afrobeats, the guys who really do the heavy lifting and hard work, they. They sat in that sort of space and carved out something that was not quite Afrobeats, not quite piano. Some people have suggested, is it Afro piano, whatever, to express what. What was going on at the time. So you. You've got that music which was very popular and was really. You did quite well in that space. But since then, I don't think we've had any of them sort of sound that has emerged and caught everyone's attention. So we're almost like as if the. The creativity is also stuck in that sort of way. Because if you listen to, say, the latest Whiskey and Ashake ep, it's also that kind of sound, you know, the veryama piano sound, you know, so, you know, so the question is, are we gonna watch the next sound? And everyone's like, well, everyone is waiting to see what. What that is. So there's a lot of. There's a sense of stockness, as it were, in the. In the music genre. And I guess sometimes also that's, you know, it's. It's now a make or my moment for. For music. But if you look at genres in general, very rare for genres to last this long in public spaces, you know. You know, those is very rare. You look at, say, for instance, and I was saying something to, I think was my wife. I was saying. And she was. She was quite. She was quite surprised when I said. I said, well, if you look at the American music and Caribbean, the Caribbean influences, you know, the Kevin D Twos, the Sean Paul and all of that, you know, and that era where those. They. What they did was they imported those guys in and you know, use their music and try to get them into the market. And then after you had someone like a Rihanna who was more or less, you know, I mean, I'm, you know, Rihanna came into the space and she also was introduced into the music scene. She started with the old Caribbean thing and then suddenly you had an album where she was marketed properly as an American pop star. And she went on and did big things. Okay. I think that that's probably what's going to happen with someone like a Tyler as well, who is getting bigger, so to speak, and getting bigger to the extent that she will. She may be, you know, Africa's response to Rihanna in that very specific sense. So my view around it is really that, well, capitalism would always exploit in its own way, take what it needs to take, take your secret formula and use it for themselves, enrich themselves and leave you iron dry. So if you don't, you know, if you, if you haven't. If you didn't think, if in, in all your optimism you did not imagine or you didn't imagine, you didn't, you didn't envisage that a time will come or a day will come where you would just come to work and they'll be like, well, we are so sorry, nothing. Not in day again then you are the fool. Yeah, so I think that's really where everyone is now. They are all in because they've all taken these big advances and they've used this to, to. They've enjoyed themselves with it, you know. And you know, the next paycheck may not be coming and everyone is in a bit of a state of panic.

[Maker]

Yeah, I mean it's, it's. I like where you leave it. I mean, I like where you arrive, you know, at with, with that or with those set of questions. Because, you know, I mean, I, I think that this is. This, this issue of talking back, you know, with regards to Afrobeats, you know, talking back to Afrobeats, you know, and fella and his, you know, quote unquote message, you know, because I mean, if, if Afrobeats is. Is stuck in a time warp, you know, I don't know if, if, you know, if, you know, given the connection that we have, it has to Fella, if is for those of us or some of us who look for message, who look for meaning in sounds or in mess, you know. You know, because maybe that's why me, I'm not, I mean, I'm drawn to Afrobeats, you know, but I'm not as invested in it as, you know, as you have, obviously. I, I'd like to think that some of the reason why or the excuse that I, I don't understand what these people are saying. You know, they're not, they're not saying anything. You know, there's. I can't see an African China and anything that these people are, you know, in this present crop of, you know, so sometimes I'm drawn to Bona because, you know, for imagery, sometimes he gets close to it, but obvious he doesn't also know what's, what's at stake. So I don't throw in my heart when he gets into all this, his once in a while trouble that he gets into.

[Emeka]

Pyrotechnics might be a term,

[Maker]

you know, so. But for me, I, I don't know if, if, if it's wrong, you know, for people like us to want to make those kinds of comparison or is that something that might be in the offing in future? Would we, you know, kind of get back to that time where people then, you know, I don't want to make. Because I, I think I'll ask that question, you know, you know, maybe down the line if I get the chance to. But you know, how off of literature, what's happening in society at these guys and how much of, you know, like you say, capitalism and the way the music industry has become structured, you know, quite apart from when people like 2Face got into the business with the Kenya, you know, how is this, you know, the ig around infrastructure around music promotion, how is it affected? You know, this part of you can just come and say a lot of. And, you know, get away with it, you know, and it's, it's, it's down to the sounds, you know, I don't know if that makes any sense.

[Dami Ajay]

Yeah, I, I get your point. And a lot of it, I think is maybe generational as well, because once you, the, the, the real indicator for knowing if you're an old person or you become an old man is to say, oh, this music is not like the days of the other day. Yeah, once you, once you hit that, you know, you know, that cross the Rubicon, so to speak. So.

[Maker]

Yeah, so.

[Dami Ajay]

Oh, they just hit you, Mr. Emeka. But. I know, but jokes apart, obviously, I think that if you look at the sort of expression across board, and I'm saying look at everywhere else, look at the contemporaries of the Afrobeats musician in other genres in other places, you wouldn't find much of a difference. You know, we are In a place where there's slop everywhere, you know, it's, it's, it's. People no longer use music for messaging. You know, maybe perhaps because of just how chaotic life has become, you know, how much information that you're fed and on, on a day to day basis, you know, just the information overload. So people, people want to use music to relax to, to feel something different, maybe to escape. So I guess we don't talk about a lot about how all of these things, these conditionings help or change or shape music for us, so to speak. So I think that's one, one thing and then also the fact that, you know, like the kind of education that you get if you live in a society like Nigeria, if you do not allow yourself or give yourself the education that you deserve, you would just find that you're just in a place where, you know, we're in a country where we watched all the values erode, so to speak. There was a time if you did a bad thing, say your father was a bad man or maybe an abortionist or something, you, your family cannot, you would have, if he's outed, your family would have to leave the area because people will look at you funny. But if you're a Yahoo boy or you involved in any sort of fraud now, your parents welcome you open hands, they would drive the car you buy them.

[Maker]

Are you the breadwinner?

[Dami Ajay]

So we've gotten to a point where the, oh, that, that has eroded. So what messaging do you then want to give? What values? What values you want to express in the music, you know, so to speak.

[Maker]

Society is bereft of it.

[Dami Ajay]

You want, you know, you want to talk about new taker, you know, caretaker, undertaker, all of those sort of things, you know. So it's, I think that that also feeds in. And the truth is I, I've always, and I think I always stood by the fact that the, the, the, the, the success of you, even Emeka saying that there's a relationship between Fela and the new guys is the success of the mythologies that has been given to us. They started, nobody thought these guys, you know, where no one could draw a proper true line between fella. And even two things, you know, it wasn't there. You know, we were given these things, you know, and if you go back in history, it's really not even the, the Kuti families. They would always say, oh well this thing that you're saying, we don't really kind of agree with it, but okay, cool. So it's, there's a sort of grudging way. We've all sort of accepted it, but it's now. We've accepted it to the extent now that it's become the, the, the myth of choice to go to. I don't think there is any real connection. I think there is, there's a sense of fellas or the patron state of Nigerian music, you know, in the way that maybe Fela himself saw Ambrose Campbell as the, the father of modern Nigerian music. You know, so there's that sense of oh, and we as people, we, we respect our ancestors as much as we like to, as much as the, the Abrahamic religions will let us. So there's that sense of fellow as this outsize patron, you know, and it doesn't help the fact that he also was a bohemian by excellence. So I think they feel the, the younger ones or the musicians are able to tap into, they're able to identify with certain aspects of Fela life. You know, just like the guy who a long time ago went to an audition and wore pants there. So the people able to take aspects of Fella's life that they, you know, that they can identify with. So I think that's really what you know, say someone like a Bona boy for instance, you know, Styes himself, like Fella sometimes takes some of his music, some of his messaging. But you and I know that Bona would never sit where there. You wouldn't lead a. You wouldn't lead a. He won't lead. What's it called? What's it called?

[Maker]

A protest.

[Dami Ajay]

A protest. It won't. He would buy a billboard and send a message of Twitter to say yeah, have you seen my billboard? I boy billboard

[Maker]

finance. Was that that barrel tested influencer, you

[Dami Ajay]

know what I'm saying? So, so these are the.

[Maker]

Don.

[Dami Ajay]

So, so what I'm saying is essentially that these are not. They not. You can't really. You know that connection is, is a bit, it's a kind of connection that becomes, is a simplistic connection that becomes. That is useful when you're marketing something to people outside Nigeria. You know, it's that sort of thing where someone asks you at work in maybe the NHS to say, oh, where did you travel to? I went to Africa. Oh, this is how we do it in Africa. And sometimes you look at talk like that, like what's wrong with you? What's Africa? Africa. Five countries bigger than Europe.

[Emeka]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dami Ajay]

You know, oversimplifying for this. Your guys, you know. So I think that's really what that works for. Oh, this Music comes from the people who gave us Fella. Oh, I fell as Afro beats. Yeah. But this one is called Afrobeats. I think it makes, you know, you don't have to talk too much. So as a market employee outside, it works. But you and I know that Afrobeats is not even a monolith in the first instance. There's so much that is going on inside, you know.

[Emeka]

Yeah.

[Maker]

So that's.

[Dami Ajay]

Yeah, there's so much that is good inside. But I also think that the gender. I mean, I think that if you listen to some. Some of sort of the guys who make the music, especially the Afro Adura guys, I think there's something that they're doing. Doing it with language. Taking language from, you know, from the streets and then taking from even Pentecostalism, Christian Pentecostalism, you know, and talking about struggles, talking about, you know, about poverty, about urban poverty and, you know, and. And something depicting. Depicting stories and events, anecdotes. I mean, sort of like things that you would. And they do it in such a very, very. They do. They use a lot of crafts to do it. It's almost like, what, say, would you recommend Make.

[Maker]

I go find one or two.

[Dami Ajay]

I mean, is a good place to start. Q dots.

[Emeka]

Yeah.

[Dami Ajay]

You know, she vibes, you know, these are, you know, mobiles who's died, but it's not been buried still, you know, so these are some of the guys who even, to an extent, Nara Mali, but, you know, but easy to pitch through. It's just a bit too pornographic, you know, it's. The shock value goes for in his music.

[Maker]

Yeah.

[Dami Ajay]

So I'm just saying that. I'm saying that if you listen to those guys, you'd find that there's something. It's almost like what Nas achieves in early music, you know, where you're just depicting. You're depicting the society as it is, and the society looks at itself and laughs back, that kind of thing. Yeah.

[Maker]

So work.

[Emeka]

Yeah, that's quite interesting. I mean, I think one. One of the threads that you. That you sort of woven into the narrative I want to tug on is, you know, it's about the industry element. And I certainly want to come back to where. Where we landed in terms of recommendations. Okay, but. But. But going, you know, step back, perhaps, to draw out the trajectory of the wider industry. So one way to summarize what you're saying is that this is definitely not the 70s anymore. I mean, it's not just in terms of the demand side, as in the audience has changed you know, people are not looking for anti imperialism so much or bohemia bohemian, anti capitalist kind of sentiments in their afrobeats to chill more so, you know, and then also in of course, the economics and such. But, but one element that I'm still not clear on and perhaps you could shed some light on is the sort of division of labor in the global music industry and whether Nigeria's role has shifted at all. Because it sort of sounds like this picture you were describing from the 70s was one whereby Nigeria was both producer and consumer. So we were able to buy Nigerian in a sense. You know, there was, not to put it into grandiose terms, but the kind of dependency theory supply chain whereby we produce raw materials that are then refined externally and sold back to us was not exactly how it was operating. Or maybe it was. You know, it sounds like now this version of the music boom and Nigeria's globalized, global. The globalization of Nigerian music has mirrored a little closer that classic supply chain dynamic where these talents are discovered often in Lagos, exported, refined and then brought back in a way to be consumed locally but under foreign labels. Is that too harsh a way to frame things? And does that overly romanticize what was happening in the 70s or, or do you think there's some accuracy to that?

[Dami Ajay]

Well, okay, so I think I'll first start with the 70s. I think my understanding from what I've read and heard about the scene then a lot of the record labels were owned by suits in London and New York and so forth, but they had offices in Nigeria. They had like an entire entire. They had offices that were more, almost functioned, you know, they were a bit autonomous in their sort of operations, so to speak. So you had the ENRs, you had recording engineers, you had like the executives who were based there who just had to show their. Through their walk ins, you know, of course aspects of the music was, you know, like the processing of the music, making of the vinyls. I think a lot of those things were done over there in, in, in England usually. I think it was in England that most of those sort of things, but they were bringing those music back on the continent in, to Nigeria and people had monies to buy it. Let's not forget that in that period as well, owning, owning a vanu player was a status symbol. Owning music, playing your own music was, was a big deal. You know, it was an hierarchy of things. For a young man, that's the first thing. Then you buy a bicycle and then the car. There was, there was all of that then, you know. But I think what then happened was that, you know, the. The military guys said they passed their decrees as they want to, to say, well, you have to indigenize your companies, you know, And a lot of those guys had to do that, you know. And I think that was where, you know, they were trying to. Nigeria was also trying to keep the money in, so to speak. And you know, the corporations and the heads of those sort of organizations were very keen and quick to leave when the 80s, when things got really bad in the 80s and they left. So by 96, none of those guys were in Nigeria anymore. I think Sony CBS was one of the last to leave. And when they left, you just had. I mean, that's why you look at the 90s, you can't really find music anywhere, really. You find some music here and there, but you can't really find a lot of the music that was produced then because they were not, you know, they were not produced to international standards. There wasn't so much going on then. A lot of the people who made music were indies, you know. But what I want to say is that in the 2000s or in the late 2000s, the sort of organizations are back. They're back on the back in Lagos, you see. They're back in Lagos again, you know, have their subsidiaries of their A R persons, you know, because, you know, it's hot again. And you know, and they want to, you know, they are prospecting, so to speak. They're looking for talents to showcase to the world because for them is a game of numbers. They. They can hire as many talents as they can and see if they can get enough of what they need and make profits of it. So I think eventually the end game is economics. It's an economics game. It's a boardroom. But now if you want to deal in the emotions of it, the emotions of it tells us categorically that a lot of the gains that Afrobeats has made in the last five, six years, the money doesn't trickle down to Nigeria.

[Maker]

Right?

[Dami Ajay]

It doesn't know, because the ANR are guys who probably are Nigerians. But they went to uni with them. America.

[Emeka]

Yes. They were the only. The other black person in that club. America.

[Dami Ajay]

Yeah. So they went to school with America speak, you know, they can speak the rights in the right accent, say the right things and get it, you know. And there are few people in the industry now who believe that the woeful performance of Afrobeats at the moment, you can ascribe it to these guys. I don't. I don't know, I don't have a say about that. But I'm saying that the money is not trickling down to Nigeria. What, if anything, what has not happened is that the. Because what tends to happen, I think with the record labels is the record labels would. Is a bit deconstructed. They would give you money to go and, to go and make your music. You just go come and deliver your raw files to us and then we'll process it because of that. That's where it works now. So you would work, look for the producers. Maybe you work with an. A guy, they give you a budget for everything else you need, you know. But what then happens is that the musician, once you have that, you go and camp your boys in Airbnb artisan repertoire. So the artistry patrol are the guys who, I mean, you can think about it like it's like a scout. They do scouting and then they also help people develop their talents and then they work on the music or their sound. So they are the way the guys who will work with you and oh, this is, this is what you should sound like. This song is good. This song is, you know, something. So they're the ones who like, just think about it like an editor, if you want to think about it, but

[Emeka]

like, like an industry representative who.

[Dami Ajay]

Yeah, yeah, usually, usually they'll be with the. They'll be signed to a record label. So the ANR for the record label, so to speak.

[Emeka]

Right.

[Dami Ajay]

So okay, so they're your guy who will be. Oh, they sound like your handler, so to speak, if you want to.

[Maker]

Like, like agent for.

[Dami Ajay]

Exactly, like your handler, so to speak. So the guy is telling you you need to still do this. This sound is not there. Maybe we should feature this person. Those sort of things. So they're the guys who. But a lot of people who get into those sort of jobs are maybe people who spend a lot of time in the industry. They understand where the music is going, you know, but the, the people who are getting those sort of jobs are not. I would say, for instance, now, ANR for a lot of earlier shake work, Fire Boy was done by Alamide himself. So a song like the Fireboy song with Lagbaja, it was. He said himself that it was olam that said let's do do a song with Lagwaja and then did back and forth, you know. And so I'm saying that this is the song that when you look at it in, in Fireboy's catalog, you're like, okay, well this is different. And these are Sort of songs that sometimes would, would age very well, so to speak. So, so you understand. So I think that what then what has happened is that the money doesn't trickle down anymore because the, the. A new set of bosses have come into town who are running the teens. So the old guys are how to become either podcasters in the way. In the way American hip hop musicians telling their stories about how the eight days and all of those sort of things. Because that's what I think people like Paul play all this guy should be a. And are in the music that we're listening to now. But what we have is that they are the ones who are telling the stories of oh were you there? When did you disappear, slap this person or was. You know, those sorts of stories. I think that's really what is. So it's. And then of course resetment will come in now because bro, you know, it's where you're in your 50s and 60s and your body is breaking down and there's no money to go to hospital or to feed. You know, you would ask yourself that was it really worth it? You know, So I think that's where that's the existential angst that everybody has now. The guys who have taken the big advance is now looking at his career like well, at 40,000 listeners on Spotify, what am I going to do? You see what I mean? So yes, I think it's a bit complex but I think the people who make decisions in these conversations sit in ballrooms in air conditioned ambience sipping their coffees and saying well cut it, cut it out. You know, there's no emotional feelings associated with it. It's business. It's business and numbers. Yeah. So that's.

[Emeka]

Well, yeah, so then in that case maybe it doesn't differ so dramatically from any other kind of African raw material, you know, in how its price and market value is determined. I mean you're describing this. I'm just thinking of license buying agents who buy cocoa when there's a more, you know. And yeah, sort of it's for them.

[Dami Ajay]

Yeah, it's. That's what it is. And then of the way then add streaming, which streaming is not even. Is not like another business on top of the business, you know, because before you would sell the match, you would sell the music yourself. The, the record label takes the money. But now there's a streaming guy who is taking, you know, most of that as well, you know. So yeah, I'm just interested in what would happen after streaming, you know, because

[Maker]

already.

[Dami Ajay]

Yeah, because you know, I started buying my vinyls back, you know, buying vinyls here, there. So, you know, just when they take everything off the Internet, at least I can listen to some of the music. Because what you listen to online on your phone is not real.

[Emeka]

Yeah.

[Dami Ajay]

They're playing for you.

[Emeka]

It's not really yours. And anyway, it's increasingly AI nonsense. I mean, maybe you're going to start writing reviews for machine generated music. Hopefully not.

[Dami Ajay]

Yeah, I hope not.

[Emeka]

Yeah. I mean, since we're on a slightly lighter note, I mean, one thing I. Well, okay, I hope it's a lighter question. I'm wondering how or the extent to which you feel that the music industry and the literature scene kind of track together or diverge. I mean it's not the same kinds of flamboyance in terms of the cars people drive, but there probably some similarities. I wonder you. And differences that might strike you as interesting. I wonder how you might respond to that.

[Dami Ajay]

I think that that's, I think it's a, it's a bit of a far reach comparing both.

[Emeka]

Okay.

[Dami Ajay]

In terms of scale, you know, like the kind of.

[Emeka]

Right.

[Dami Ajay]

What you get as a writer. I mean content creators might be closer for you to compare to. Well, look, let me give you a

[Emeka]

little bit more context. I guess why it comes up is that in a way like, you know, Nigeria seemed to be having a moment in, in the 2000s. Right. Where like Nollywood was. Is increasingly recognized in Africa and I guess in some of the metropolitan capitals then Nigerian literature, some big names emerged on the global scene and then Afrobeats was sort of also emerging. So it's like Nigerian cultural production in general seemed to be globalizing in some ways. So Yeah. I wondered if from that vantage point there, there were some, you know, there's, there's some ways in which these two worlds are related or have had similar dynamics shape them. Yeah, I mean it's quite, quite, quite a zoomed out question. I, I admit. But just curious.

[Dami Ajay]

Yeah. I think, I think as, as a writer and someone who's also watched that theme as well. I think the, the idea that, you know, the, a lot the biggest patrons of African literature are not Africans, that's something that it's the, is the root cause of all our problems, so to speak.

[Maker]

So that.

[Dami Ajay]

That's the first thing. And then all the, the idea is also like the, there's always competing interests, competing talent, so to speak. And it's difficult skewed against the African or the Nigerian writer. I think in, in time you would always have One or two, three, four writers who are in the. In sort of. And sort of the limelight, so to speak. Yeah, those who stay in the limelight or who go into. Into pop glory if you like, always have to diversify. You know, you have to be. You have to take on other things. You have to cut media, maybe be a bit controversial, be beautiful, obviously speak very well, you know, do all the other things. That is not. It's not quite as legible as the writing itself, so to speak. And if you. If you really want to be a writer, you know, you. You may have to embrace the will I say the. What's it called now, the obscurity. If you're not willing to do all of those sort of things because you have to be on the streets, you have to marketing yourself, you have to take all of those opportunities, so to speak. And the way the opportunities are not that they're like maybe in my view there are very few opportunities for, you know, for writers on. In the west for. Of African descents. They would take one or two. There's usually one or two or three there, you understand. So once that is this. It's like. Like we're saturated, so to speak. You know, I'll give an example of say and I'll use example of. During the black life matter period, there was a flipping in publishing world where you had more writers of, you know, ethnic minorities getting published, you know, as a direct consequence of what was going on in the political space. But you and I know, you and I know that the political space has flipped now and if you look closely, you see that there's also a flip, you know, so, you know, growing up I used to think that talent was enough or you just have to write well and have good ideas and you know, you know, lean into tradition. But I find that the world goes in the way of the politics of what's going on around it. And you know, all of those sort of responses would determine and are more. They're more legitimate sort of. They are more legitimate in what. What determines who becomes what. You know, and you're. You have to be willing to accept that your best writing may. May be read by only your friends and your. And your lovers.

[Emeka]

Yeah. Not entirely dissimilar to your best podcasting, which also similar kind of audience. But you know, to that point, I guess the final question I wanted to pose before we let a Mecca come back in is. Is. Is then around the role of the critic, especially a critic that sits between the literature, the world of literature and that of music? Yeah, I mean, what, so what do you, what do you, who do you feel is your audience in a sense? And then like, what do you feel is your responsibility to that audience? Do you, do you feel some sense of responsibility? When you're handling Afrobeats, you seem to handle it so well. So I wonder kind of what are the underlying motivations or maybe philosophies that undergird your approach to criticism?

[Dami Ajay]

So, so I, I started writing music criticism or journalism for myself in the first instance. And when I was doing my work, some people then came and said, oh, dami, how about you come and write for us? I will pay you. Take the money and when they stop paying me, continue to do my work. You see what I mean? So my work is my work. You know, I feel, well about. I feel way about music that I find that writing about it helps me to feel better about it. So I'm my most important audience in that sort of sense. And I feel that the real role of a writer is to speak to the, to their times. You understand, there are no experiences that humans have that is different. It's how you're. Is how it's expressed in words or in film or, you know, that's what makes it different, you know, and in, in doing your expression, you are still trying to connect with people, so to speak. So I've written a lot about music to the extent that sometimes I find a piece of writing I've done and ah, when did you write this one? Yes, so yeah, that prolific. But I find that, you know, it's a. It serves its own purpose. When a work is breath into the world, it goes. Not unlike the bird that is set free. If it goes, if it falls in nice places and people like it nice. If it's not nice. I mean, I'm fortunate that at least I have been read, you know, and for me that's one of the. The fact that even you have me on your podcast. I say, oh, we want to talk to this guy. Ah, it's big deal for me, you know, because I'm just. I still see myself as a little child who just cares about music and I want to talk about it and people now want to listen. That's for me, I get my barriers or my bars are low. So my, my, you know, so if you have low expectations in that sort of sense, I think you'll be happy with it. So yeah, so for me it's really that I'm, I'm just happy to do the work that I think I was put on her to do. And I'm just going to do it, you know. So that's, that's. That for me is how I see it. I think that in, in music journalism and this, my observation is that a lot of people that I started writing music journalism about the same time, there isn't much of a career progression. Okay. For the, for, for you as a music journalism, if you do music journalism, after some time, the next thing is either for you to join the suits, so you go A R. And then if you rise up the ranks, maybe you run a record label, right. Or the alternative is for you to become, to work with the talent. So maybe some people become PR persons. So I think those are like the only sort of career progressions that, that is available. Or you go and become a politician or work for a politician or something, you know, those sort of things. Or write a book or maybe go into journalism school or something. Become some sort of. Or become an influencer, you know. So I think those are sort of the career pathways. And for me, I find any career pathway that nukes your ability to sit at the laptop and to pour your thoughts out, to express your ideas, to do the actual writing, I find it to be problematic. And I think I knew this earlier. That's why I stayed in school, finished my degree, became a psychiatrist, so that I can do what I want to do, the work that I want to do without thinking about, oh, do I have to get paid for it? Do I have to pay rent? Do I have to pay school fees? You know, so I can do all those things without thinking about money first. When it comes to my writing now, I am a very privileged person and I accept, accept that I'm a privileged person. But I think that I, I wanted to do my work and I've just sort of found a way to do it.

[Maker]

Awesome, awesome. But me, I think I can come in right now a bit. For me, I think the dummy is being modest as a way maybe to close because. And I say this because. Maybe because we're friends, but no, it's not because we're friends. Let me wear my literary critic hat on for a minute. I think that if I have any criticism of the older generation of writers, and by that I mean the show Incas, the Achebes, maybe even the. Not maybe the, you know, that cohort of writers and even those that came after them, some of whom are my own friends. So I would mention names, I think that what they didn't quite do. And Danny, please correct me if I'm Wrong, even in the 70s, was that they didn't quite pay any attention or much attention to the music that was being created at the time in ways that we didn't get music critics, you know, of the sort that Dami is. Okay, so I. I don't know who I would go and read if I wanted to think about music of the 70s. You know, you can find some of that kind of writing in a bit, you know, academic papers, you know, somebody like maybe Aki Adeshoh. It's almost always in passing. Okay, yeah, as well, you know, you know, so I mean, basically, I think where I'm get getting at is that it was. It was almost as if, you know, those writers thought that, you know, that they were bigger than the music of their time. What the likes of Dami did was to break that myth, you know. So in. In that generation, in that cohort of writing, you. You would find people who stuck to music as music critics and you find people who stuck to film as film critics. How they've evolved, you know, that's why I said I haven't caught up much on. On the literary side for a bit. But I also think that the rise and fall of. Or what their roles would be would depend on how much of. The music. You know, how do I say this now? Some of the. Some of the digital infrastructure, even the infrastructure, physical infrastructure that we managed to build around these industries, be it film industry, you know, it's all entertainment. Yes. But you know, they are. They are different compartments. So I think that if there's anything that they have done is that, you know, they have managed to cultivate some kind of following, you know, us these things as either a music critic or film critic. And it's interesting, you know, especially I can. I think I can say this for film. I don't know if Dami has had this experience, but I wouldn't be surprised if he has. Where you know, you've written some kind of criticism about a particular single or I know that this happens in film where I. I hear that people write reviews of films and the producers, you know, who. Who happen to have some kind of creed. Street most. Most street credibility would say if I catch you for outside you are that rubbish where you write, you know, or. Or where in. In this day and age of fan base, you know, the, you know, the Whiskey followers now the Whiskey fc. Yeah, Whiskey fc people will say if you. As a music critic, you know, I think, you know, so that kind of conversation, those kinds of controversy makes me think that, you know, There's a world out there in which a music critic can build something. You know, maybe it's not just been built. Maybe people like Dami would build it. Because I know that he has newsletters that come into my mail every week. I think, you know, and I know that, you know, people are actively and vibrantly listening to what he has to say and care about what he has to say about this thing. Maybe it's a case of, you know, and I hope not that, you know, he's come ahead of his time. So I, I think. And this is me not answering the question that side poses, but just making my own observation, I think that there'll be time enough for Dami to respond to this. But also, in closing, Damian. And now this is a question, you know, so you can respond to this as well as answer the question, then maybe we'll wrap it up. But, you know, in much of our conversation today, we haven't quite focused on your work as a psychiatrist. You know, even though you mention it, this is maybe me being naughty, but, you know, you know, one of my first comments about you, you know, your work, you know, your, Your book of poetry, when I read it, was that you were writing asha poetry. And I, upon reflection, when I, you know, when I went back to reading some of those early works, you know, by the way, Dummy has a book of poetry called A Woman's Body is a Country. I don't know whether any of that's that one before. Yeah. And yeah, so I have this feeling that, you know, that there are aspects of you. Who is the psychiatrist who come into you writing as a poet, you know, and earlier during the course of the, the, the. This episode, this conversation, you. You did mention that, you know, as a poet, you know, one of your biggest assets is brevity. You know, is this something that you also subconsciously, or is this something that. That, you know, you're aware of, that you bring into writing musical reviews or how you even respond to the arts, the music around you, you know, how much of this even involved your politics, you know, some of which you have begun to mention in terms of the privileges that you have tried to build around yourself to insulate you from, you know, some of. Of of of of the roadblocks within the industry? I don't know. I know that's a couple of questions again, but, you know, does that make any sense to you? And how would you, you know, respond to that?

[Dami Ajay]

Yeah, I think. Yeah, thanks. It's a very convoluted question, but I guess what you're trying to ask is how does, how do my parts, my many parts, how do they work together? I guess. Yes, that's one. And then also. Yeah, the fact of the most important thing to me as a poet is, is mischief. So, so that's. So if you read my poetry and you understand that this guy is the, the. Is most.

[Maker]

What? What?

[Dami Ajay]

Yeah, the mischief is at the heart of what I'm doing. And I think I was having a conversation with, with a professor of literature once and I said you that I consider issue. My issue. Patron God in writing.

[Emeka]

Also patron saint of this show as a. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dami Ajay]

Oh, he is. I didn't know that.

[Emeka]

Probably.

[Dami Ajay]

So, so mischief, you know, it's, it drives a lot of the poetry. And the thing is, everybody who comes and says, oh, this guy, your poetry is, ah, shower poetry, you've missed it, you know, on a layer it is. But then if you, if you take time and go over it again, then you find like. So for instance, the book A Woman's Body Is A Country, about five years after it was published, someone wrote a review and his own interest was to look at the sociopolitical aspects of it. And it was like, well, this book is the most political book is read in a long time. And I said, yeah, you get it, because the book is really about Nigeria, it's about patriotism in a very specific sense. But of course I was using and utilizing metaphors available to me as a young person in Nigeria who cares about music, dance and all of those sort of things. I needed to co opt metaphors that were accessible to me at the time. So there is that sense of politics. And I think even in this show today I've been very, quite political. Clearly a lot of the ideas that I've, I've shared. So there's that part of the mischief. Of course, the mischief doesn't travel very well into my work as a psychiatrist because the skill you need, the skill you need as a psychiatrist to be a good psychiatrist in the NHS in particular is not mischief. You need empathy. You need empathy, you need, you need to be sensitive to people's feelings, you need to be kind, you need to be professional, you know, in that you need to know your onions about, you know, what's happening, what's available in terms of resources, all in the service of helping the patient. So I think that particular skill, it's a certain rigor that that is needed now. Rigor. You need that to be a good point as well. Maybe not. You don't need much of A listener. But maybe to be a good writer, you need to listen to people. People and all of that. So I'm just trying to see what skills. Travel, travel well between each of these. I think for me as a music writer, the real, the reason why the, the thing about music is that I care very much about music. And even when I speak to my parents, they've always like, oh, well, we, we knew that you had an unusual relationship with music since you were a child, you know, since you were a baby. So I think a lot of that is just carried through. You know, I've just sort of found a way to cope with my unusual relationship with music. And writing has just been that vehicle. And I think the people that I most identify with my work have the same problem I have. They can't get the music out of their head. So they have to find people like them, you know, who would keep talking about music and talk about, you know, stuff. Yeah. So that's, I think that's, that. I don't know if I've answered your question, but I think that's a fair attempt on my own account.

[Maker]

You have?

[Dami Ajay]

Yeah.

[Maker]

For, for, for, for the poet who use, who wants, who wants to use the line woman, woman, drop your cool. Okay. Well, yeah, but I mean, don't get me wrong, I, I, I, my reading of your work is a bit political, but, you know, it will be a deep for anyone to get there. If you ask me, it would be like a deep, deep dive.

[Dami Ajay]

Yeah.

[Maker]

On the surface, what it seems like, you know, which is what? You know, I think many people like you, you rightly said, who respond to your work feel is that, you know, it has, it's a bit sensual.

[Dami Ajay]

Yeah. But the mischief also is that, you know, the, the kind of poetry that has come from Nigeria as well is very to my mind, I mean, and shout out to the greats was very. I, I didn't want to write the kind of poems that wrote or has written or write the kind of poems that Okigbo wrote and has written or even Niro Okwale's poetry or Tadik Badiola's poetry. I want to write something that is uniquely, uniquely mine, so to speak, you know, that I, you know, I want you to read a line from my poem and get a sense of my style. You know, that's a Damian Jay line, you know, in the way that when I reach, come across Shurinka or she must ini and I'm like, yeah, this is something in the esque there, you know. So I Think for me, it was about trying to find. Find my own voice, so to speak. As. As a writer. I think poets should be sensual because we're working with language, man. You know, we're interested in language in a very specific way. And if you, as a poet cannot. You're not. You don't have that uncanny relationship with language. Maybe you should, you know, you should just, you know, become an accountant or something, you know. My wife's an accountant, by the way.

[Maker]

Oh, okay.

[Dami Ajay]

And Jesus was a carpenter, so. Indeed.

[Emeka]

And I'm. I'm a hobbyist carpenter, but I can't count much. What I'm not is a poet. But I. I will say that to quote you, quoting a friend, finding meaning in Afrobeats is as efficient as fetching water from a well with a basket. Despite that, I think you've managed to quench some of our thirsts in terms of knowledge, the pursuit of knowledge. Okay, you can see why I'm not a poet. But what I'm trying to say is this has been a fantastic conversation and we've kept you for a while, so we should probably let you go with the hope that we'll be able to catch you again for another discussion down the line. So I say that to say thank you for joining us today. And. Yeah, this is. This has really been great.

[Dami Ajay]

Been great having me here. Thank you very much. I. I had a good time with you guys. You. You guys are great. Impressed. And hopefully soon we should be able to break bread and drink beer in person.

[Emeka]

That would be nice. Maybe in America's club. In. Wherever he was.

[Dami Ajay]

Yeah, wherever he is. So that whiskey don't come for him.

[Emeka]

Exactly.

[Maker]

Drop.

[Dami Ajay]

Geopolitical location.

[Maker]

They tell you, my brother, you can't be too careful these days nowadays.

[Emeka]

Indeed.

[Maker]

Yeah. All right, well. Nice. Nice one, Damie. Thanks for honoring our, like, you know.

[Dami Ajay]

Thanks, guys.

[Emeka]

Talk soon, hopefully. Bye, Megan. Nice, huh?

[Maker]

Yeah. Sounds. Let's hear it. Sounds awesome.

[Emeka]

Yeah, I thought it was.

[Dami Ajay]

I mean,