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GovDiscovery AI Podcast with Mike Shanley
Ep. 38: President Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate
00:24:34
President Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, the first female elected head of state in an African nation and Nobel Peace Prize Laureate joins Mike Shanley to discuss the role of aid donors, localization, and women and development. This episode was recorded live...
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- [00:02]
Mike Shanley
Welcome to the Aid Market Podcast where foreign aid partners connect to learn about key funding trends and market insight. The podcast is co hosted by Aid Connect Data, the pipeline and market intel software for USAID Partnering and Connected International, the leading USAID partnering support consulting firm. Now, here's your host, Mike Shanley.
- [00:27]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Madam President, welcome to the 8 Market podcast. It is a privilege to have you on the show today. On behalf of the board of the Society for International Development, U.S. congratulations on your award. We're very much looking forward to hearing from you at our annual dinner this evening.
- [00:46]
Madam President / Former Head of State
Thank you very much. I'm pleased to participate in the events and I look forward to an exciting evening that we all will enjoy. And I hope it's also going to be fun.
- [01:00]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Yes, I think it will be. First of all, I'd love to get your thoughts on the role of international aid donors. Know you've worked at the World bank and engage with most of the ones globally, but what role do you see for usaid, the World bank and their partners that they can most effectively play in global development?
- [01:21]
Madam President / Former Head of State
You know, it's very difficult in the current global and dynamics of current global environment to start to think about what can we do for an improvement in aid and in support for development. You may recall that in 2015 I was part of the leadership group that adopted the Sustainable Development goals and the 17 goals that were determined was meant to see a better world by 2030, that we would have had multilateralism that would be effective, we've had global cooperation and we all would then see that we would have addressed some of the inequities and the injustices of the world. Well, of course COVID 19 perhaps interrupted the processes that were underway. And so we all settled to addressing the effects of COVID 19 and that brought changes in partnerships, changes in priorities, different alignments, political and economic. And so I guess the Secretary General, with the effort of the the work of the summit of the future that ended in September, attempted to see post COVID 19 would be a resumption of some of the ideals and some of the processes for the Sustainable Development Goal. Well, that hasn't happened. You know that and I know that the global environment has changed quite considerably in the last decade. We've seen official development, a decline, we all know that, because of what was spent on trying to address the effects of COVID 19. And then we saw political disengagements, war like what we see in Ukraine, that has introduced some very serious changes and concerns that I think many of us don't fully understand. What the long term effect of this will be. But at this stage, based on the debates at the summit of the future, there's been a great effort to talk about reform of the global architecture. And that by doing this we would have much more inclusivity, would have much more participation of people who would address the existential threats like climate change, artificial intelligence, and we'd make all the reforms of the global architecture, with particular emphasis on the global financial architecture, which is where they do US aid and development support fits in that tent, if I may put it that way. And the different reforms that are there are still being discussed, but it's taking place in the time of a changing global political environment, making it much harder to get the global cooperation and the effective multilateralism that we had all hoped for. What can be done? I think everyone is now concluding that there's a missing piece in all of this, that we never had the scale of development support for the less developed countries of the world. And so that transformative effect that we all had looked for never happened. COVID 19 put additional pressures on domestic revenue, domestic capacity. What we had seen in terms of debt settlement issues changed considerably. Most countries found themselves going back into debt and all now facing difficult circumstances. Let me get back to the missing piece. The global financial world found that the rich were getting richer and the poor poorer. And if we were going to have a change of this global financial architecture, we'd have to bring in where the capital is, where the resources reside, and that's in the private sector. Private capital is there. That's where we found, and we haven't found a way to address a new approach of development support that has this integrated private capital so badly needed. A continuation of official development aid at a reduced level because of what's being required in all countries for their own domestic needs. Because private capital is meant to have returns and it carries great risks. And until we can find a way to mitigate those risks, whether it's to use development aid as a means of putting up support to take care of those risks, I think the approaches that are still being discussed and still being designed will take some time on that.
- [07:04]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Private sector engagement note, I think many of the eight donors have, obviously they recognize that need and have tried to use their funding to incentivize or engage the private sector with varying levels of success. What do you see as have been some of the challenges in unlocking that or directing that private capital to some of these development priorities, we have no.
- [07:30]
Madam President / Former Head of State
Option but to find a way to get that done. We have a larger global population that will require needs. The existential threats impose much more resources to be able to address them. We have, particularly in Africa, we have a very young population and that population is demanding certain changes, demanding the right of full participation in decision that affect them. Unless we can find a formula to be able to integrate where the money is, if I may put it that way, where the need is in a win win situation, where private capital gets the return that it seeks, but that the processes for aid will enable countries to have a much better scale, a larger scale of support so they can be able to carry out their own transformative agenda. I don't have the answer for that. I think everybody grappling with how it can be done and it comes at a time of political changes, political system changes. And those political systems are also changing the financial environment. The BRICs are introducing some new difficulties, some concerns, and they are enlarging their numbers. It's a difficult world.
- [09:05]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
A lot of these aid donors, in addition to private sector engagement, are focused on variations of a localization policy. Either trying to get more direct funding to local partners or making sure programs designed are locally led. Or what would your advice be to the multilaterals or bilaterals on how to best design their localization policies and initiatives to maximize the effectiveness of the funding that they have?
- [09:33]
Madam President / Former Head of State
I think they too would have to design programs that call for this blended financial approach. I think the Bridgetown Initiative sees some of the processes for being able to achieve that. I also think some of the reforms that have come out of the debates at the summit of the future that talks about changes in the ownership of official capital, like through the special drawing rights. How do we change that? How do we ensure that the major financial institutions like the World bank and the International Money Share Fund will have some management changes, but also we'll see that funding, official development aid will also be channeled through regional institutions that are closer to the need. We think that development agencies that support development have to also look at their processes. Many times the process is so long that it minimizes the results and the effect the process.
- [10:44]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
And even just awarding the procurement and the funding and the proposals, we're also in the implementation and getting the project started.
- [10:52]
Madam President / Former Head of State
That's exactly right. And while it's well intentioned to make sure that we have transparency and accountability important elements, but they can still be achieved in a shorter time process. We don't need all those many steps. And don't forget, we need to put primary responsibility for implementation of programs on those that are benefiting through their own institutions, through their authorities. And we also need for our countries, the leadership in our countries to take primary responsibility for their development and to make sure that they inform their public on what they do. And they change their processes too, to make sure that they use the provided support effectively, timely to achieve the results at both sides. Because if we don't do it, then obviously we do not encourage development support on a scale that we wish it. And so the reforms have to take place on both sides if we're going to see an improved result, if we're going to see the transformative effect that we all talk about. It's a difficult time to impose all of these reforms given the global political environment. But I also think we have no choice because if we do not try to address it and the situation gets worse, then I think the entire world will face some very difficult conditions.
- [12:30]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
And how have you seen during the post conflict rebuilding in Liberia while you were head of state over the last decade plus, how have you seen this sector evolve? Have you seen any positive signs of change or ways that the aid is being more effectively allocated or implemented?
- [12:47]
Madam President / Former Head of State
I think two things have happened there that I consider a step of improvement. The use of having communities have the say, participate in a setting of priorities has improved and I think that's the right way to do it. That way you get the ownership and you will get a much more effective participation for improved Results. Using the NGO, using NGOs as much as possible, and having them based in such a way that they take part in the discussion and debate that leads to priorities and ensure participation and implementation by those affected and those responsible and those who benefit. I think we see more shifting toward that and that's likely to bring better results.
- [13:42]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
And for the NGO participation, you see a combination of local NGOs both in the capital, but regional as well as international NGOs can be effective consortiums in delivering programmatic results.
- [13:56]
Madam President / Former Head of State
I do see that and I think the development of local NGOs is perhaps something relatively new, but I think it's going to improve results. But there's one issue. NGOs are not all the time accountable either financially or results, because the link to their parent institutions or the link to their support institution may be very effective and whatnot, but they don't feel they have the same responsibility to the local environment, to the authorities of the countries in which they serve. And I think we need some improvement there too, particularly for the public. The public should also know, as they demand of their own governments, what the NGO entities do, how they receive support, how they use the report. Because within the environment, where we say the emphasis are on people and planet, well, people means more participation, more involvement, more knowledge on the part of people who will be affected and people who are responsible for their own development. So there's improvement that can be made on both sides. But I think generally the development results that we want, we have to say that our countries could not have done it alone if they didn't have the strong partnership and the strong support that comes from that partnership, from the international aid donor, from the international aid donors and the fact that they are now recognizing the important role of communities, the important role of people who is a chance of much improvement in results.
- [15:44]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
And you've touched on this a few times about the changing political landscape and the SDGs today. What do you see as the primary challenges and opportunities for international development?
- [15:56]
Madam President / Former Head of State
Globally, the political environment is changing because we see a lot of isolationism, self interest, and that's undermining the kind of partnership that we've always known. We see shifting alliances in terms of partnerships that's going to affect the long arrangements, the long friendship that have been achieved over all these years. We see what even looks like democracy at risk because there are interruptions now in Africa in the democratic processes that had been instilled through change, constitutions, change laws and policies. And we see a lot of disruption. What had been stable environment, political environment and the road, the solution to those are still a bit uncertain. But there's commitment, I think, on the part of everybody because everyone sees the effect of where we are now and the disaster that could loom if we don't find a way to address it.
- [17:18]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
On that note, where is your energy focus these days? What projects are you working on that you'd like to share with our listeners? And of course share any way that they can engage or support any of those initiatives or causes.
- [17:33]
Madam President / Former Head of State
My energy is on doing that which makes a difference. Women. I like to look historically on where strong women, as few as they are, how they've taken strong positions, how they've also shown empathy in carrying out, how they've shown mediation and negotiation as solution to problems, how they've seen conflict as something that takes away from the development effort. We need more women to have the opportunities to compete, to take strong and high level leadership positions. We need them not only in public service, but we also need them in the private sector. We need more women CEOs that will be making the decisions on private capital, just like we need more women in government zone development Assistance. And I think the record of some, like the Scandinavian countries, that says, you know, people are people, women and men allow the same rights, the same opportunities. And that's what I work on. It's right now concentrated in Africa, but it has implications much beyond. It has global implications. Because whatever we do to improve the status of women, to protect women and children, whatever we do has a global reach. And so we do go beyond Africa. We identify those who have started their leadership journey through advocacy and profiling and through communications, where they build platforms, networking platforms. And through that we are able to reach out and encourage women to go beyond their own fears, to be able to compete, to just dismiss some of the kind of abuses or something that women go through when they're competing for public office. And I think more and more the results are there. The process is too slow. But it's our responsibility as all women leaders working together today is to try to change the environment, to try to change the mindset, long standing traditional mindset of men, women, as to the value and contribution that women leadership can make to national and international effort. And I think we see progress. It's painfully slow, but we see more women appointed prime ministers, more women appointed ministers. We have more women in Congress, parliaments, as we call it. One African country, Rwanda, having the largest number of women parliamentarians globally. Those are all encouraging signs. Keep working my thing. I have established a center for women in development. And our work is to do just what I said, identify those women, work with them, to make them known, advocate for them, provide training opportunities and knowledge for them, sharing with others who have set good examples, looking at policies, ensuring that they look at how countries have changed some of their processes and laws to encourage equality of women. And so we're pleased with our work and we're pleased that in fact talking about development support, we get support from US foundations, report from those entities that are committed to seeing development. They support a wide range of national and community efforts to make the world a better place. Certainly in the area we support women leadership, we also get support from institutions, I don't want to name them, but quite a few of them. And I think because of the support we get from them, we were able to continue to expand our reach, continue to get the results that we want, and continue to see more women appointed.
- [22:01]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Wonderful, thank you for that important work. For our listeners who are part of foundations or donors that would like to support or contribute, is there a website or the best way that they would be able to contact your team to reach out for partnering or to support.
- [22:15]
Madam President / Former Head of State
That important work, the center has a website.
- [22:18]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Great. We'll put it in the. We'll get it afterwards.
- [22:20]
Madam President / Former Head of State
We encourage everybody to see the website. We also have Twitter, Twitter X these days, right?
- [22:28]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Yes. Yes.
- [22:31]
Madam President / Former Head of State
So we have a center that carries messages on X. I carry some very short personal messages on X. And that plus our website enables us to put out some of what we the things we believe in, the values we have and the experiences we have from time to time on different issues as they arise. Great.
- [22:56]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Well, we'll put those in the show notes so they can follow you and your organization on exent and connect on the website. To wrap up, we like to ask all our guests the question of so what. So to our audience, international donors, the local NGOs, the global NGOs and partners that support their work, what's the key takeaway you would like to leave them with?
- [23:18]
Madam President / Former Head of State
Only through partnership, each with responsibility and benefits that are equal, can we really say that we can make a difference, a positive difference, in the achievement of development in the world. And our takeaway is the future depends on this type of collaborative partnership in which everyone takes apart.
- [23:43]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Madam President, it's truly a privilege to have you on the show. An honor to meet you. Thank you for your incredible work and I hope that our listeners can continue to support the very important work you and your team are doing globally. So truly, thank you for being being on the show and sharing your insight with us today.
- [24:03]
Madam President / Former Head of State
Thank you for the opportunity to be able to say a few words about my feeling about international development.
- [24:10]
Podcast Host / Interviewer
Thank you.
- [24:12]
Mike Shanley
Thank you for tuning in to the Aid Market podcast. If you enjoyed today's show, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And connect with Mike Shanley on LinkedIn to stay updated on the latest USAID funding trends.
- [24:26]
Madam President / Former Head of State
SA.