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- [00:02]
A
I'm John Ostrower, editor in chief of the Air Current.
- [00:04]
B
I'm Brian Summers and I write the Airline Observer.
- [00:07]
C
And I'm Brett Snyder, author of Cranky Flyer. You're listening to the Air show, the podcast where we talk about what happens in the business of the sky. This week's episode is sponsored by skygo. Stay in the moment with your aviation curiosity. Explore scheduled data by airline, airport route and aircraft in seconds right from your phone, currently in beta. Learn more@theairshowpodcast.com SkyGo oh man, I missed you guys.
- [00:34]
A
Two excellent episodes while I was gone. I found myself reflexively trying to chime in while you were making some points on arcane bits of airplane and aviation history. I guess that's what happens when I put myself on listen only mode.
- [00:47]
C
You just need to bring your your mic with you next time you're at the Air show and you can join in.
- [00:52]
A
Yeah, exactly. But it is very good to be back. I do have some less positive news to deliver though. Unfortunately, the Air show did not pick up Best Multimedia Submission at the Aerospace Media Awards for the second year in a row. Snubbed again.
- [01:08]
B
Clearly the judges have no sense of
- [01:10]
A
humor, but it is my pleasure to share that Lon Head and Will Giesbond from my team were honored with awards for Technical Writer of the Year and and Best New Journalist respectively.
- [01:22]
B
Well, congratulations to them, John and your team.
- [01:25]
C
Congrats to them. At least the awards made two right decisions.
- [01:30]
A
Indeed. Indeed.
- [01:31]
B
Before you give us the big scoop about what you learned at the show, why don't you answer for us the most important question I know you're dying to share. How'd you get to London?
- [01:41]
A
This is fun. This is where aerospace reporter meets airline secret shopper. This one was actually the first time for as long as I can remember as I had a non stop flight from my home in Seattle to the show. In this case, from Seattle to London. Given the amount of time we've talked about Alaska starting their new service to Europe, I thought it would be a good opportunity to try it out. I actually booked the day it went on sale and literally the seat map was fresh as the driven snow. So I got to pick my pick my seat. The flight to London is the company's second continental European route alongside Rome, and it was really interesting to watch Alaska sort of roll into this transition as it aspires to be a global network carrier. Full disclosure, this was a ticket I booked myself and I booked into economy initially and very quickly was offered a very reasonable upgrade to business. So I got to try the front of the cabin.
- [02:35]
B
Not a great sign for the profitability of that route considering this was peak season fair.
- [02:40]
A
But what I would say is that when the upgrade upsell was offered it had I think tripled by the time the actual flight came around and there were still seats available. Available. Okay, so my return route was also an economy, but because of my status I had a first. I had a legit waitlist upgrade to business class on an international long haul flight that like never happened before on any airline and it cleared just as I was about to board. It was really interesting. The onboard product was really solid. I have flown a similar route on Delta, on American and on United and it was on par. The Hawaiian cruise flight flying the route were really excellent. It was really interesting to see the daylight between Alaska Domestic and Alaska International. And there are some overlaps but I think that they are definitely early on in this transition. But it seems like they're getting their feet under them pretty quickly. Certainly as far as the onboard product, there was no WI Fi. Starlink is coming. It was actually kind of nice to be offline for nine hours, but certainly by I think hour seven and a half I was thinking, you know, maybe it would be good to be able to connect but on the ground. One observation, not a complaint, because this really is not something that bothers me. The lounge situation in Seattle is all over the place with departures for the 787 from the S gates to London. The D lounge was actually the nearest to the departure gate and that's like 10, 15 minutes away minimum. The problem is that in the gush of summer travel where everyone gets to use their lounge passes, the lounge was full. And again, observation, not a complaint. But imagine if I were a full price business class passenger A on one of four long haul widebody flights paying a very healthy four digit price tag for this route. I might not feel that this was the best way to start a journey. Ostensibly there's a big new international lounge coming, but it's going to be interesting to watch this evolve as part of the end to end journey. On the flip side of course the lounge options at Heathrow were excellent. Even on my economy ticket with One World Emerald, I had a chance to partake in the Cathay Pacific first lounge. Highly recommend. That felt like Brian, very premium.
- [04:53]
B
He's got jokes.
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C
I just want to make one observation here though. You said where this meets airline secret shopper, but I am pretty sure that anytime you fly Alaska they have like big red warning lights. On some system somewhere in headquarters.
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A
I hope not. That would be terrible. Well, it's like when. When Brian flies American, they spit in his food. That's right.
- [05:13]
B
Well, somebody told me to be. To be aware of that.
- [05:15]
A
Actually, sir, we have a selection of shelf stable cheeses for you. All right, enough of this.
- [05:22]
C
But let's. Let's talk about the air show itself. Who ordered what? Who placed the big deals? What's happening? What did we miss? Tell us what happened.
- [05:33]
A
I'd say the most consequential order came for Embraer, which one goal, obviously the Brazilian lcc, which is also rapidly shifting its business model away from just the 737. And now it's a new E195 E2 customer. Also, GE and Safran, through CFM, announced an order for more than a thousand. Yes, more than a thousand CFM Leap 1A engines to power more than 500 A320neo family aircraft for Indigo.
- [06:01]
B
I was going to say, John, I would think that that many engines would power about, you know, 125 airplanes.
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A
Yeah, yeah, sorry. No, sorry. Just to be clear, 200 of those are for actual, like, delivery, and 800 are for spares. Okay, so Riyadh Air bought some more wide bodies and single aisles. Same for Philippine Airlines. But I got to admit, when backlogs are as big as they are and the wait times are stretching into the next decade, these orders feel sort of performative and like, okay, cool, more orders, whatever.
- [06:30]
C
Yeah, that's why I placed an order.
- [06:32]
A
Yeah. Oh, congratulations that. Your 737600 will be ready for you in. In 1998.
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C
I learned from Delta, end of the line orders are the way to go.
- [06:41]
A
There's a lot of truth in that. But look, there's already, like, a massive backlog here. I mean, as of Today, there are 9,200 for Airbus and 6,200 for Boeing. That's insane. That's 15,000 airplanes waiting to be delivered. But look, demand is not the issue. It's supply.
- [06:58]
B
Yeah, John, I know you get giddy around airplanes in the same way that I do about a well crafted cheese plate. I've seen some of your Instagram posts from these events. There are also a lot of people like you that are on there. Like, I did not see the same drinking of the Kool Aid, the same excitement from this show as I have in prior years with. Was it all a little bit more subdued than it has been?
- [07:23]
A
It absolutely was. And look, I think there are. There are a lot of indications that 10 years after Brexit, the role of the UK in aerospace was one of the great own goals, if you will, in geopolitics, that ultimately significantly reduced the influence the UK has on the world stage in aerospace. And the static was, was pretty sparse actually, certainly compared to years past. You know, my, my first farmer was 2008 and it was packed. But I think it also is very telling because it's also because of the supply issue. Not because there weren't airplanes available, but because air framers, you know, most notably Boeing here needs the max 10 in the 7779 burning through test points in their certification plan, not sitting on the ramp at Farnborough in the uk. Amusing folks in a flying display like, like Boeing doesn't have a week to spare here. But you know, broadly there was just less action on the big metal side of things. You know, Airbus didn't bring a 220, nor did we see a launch of the 2 2500.
- [08:25]
C
Yes, as we joked at the cranky Network Awards last year, Airbus is waiting until our event next year on 225 to launch that airplane. So this stands to reason. But, but this whole thing, this sounds weird, like, is Farborough dying? Is this over? Was this really even a commercial show?
- [08:43]
A
This is a good question, I think. I think it also speaks to the shifting importance of, of these big shows and whether or not they are as important. I think a lot of people are having meetings in, in central London. They'll do the same in Paris next year. Where people are going is changing and it's not necessarily these gigantic monuments to, to aerospace. I think Paris will always be big because number one, the French government is hugely invested in it being huge. It's a different kind of showcase for continental Europe. But I think going to Dubai last November, you could feel how much that was rising. I didn't see the whole static. Like I. There was parts of that show that I didn't even get a chance to see because it was so big. So I think the center of gravity is changing. I think how this is weighted is evolving. But I think also the reality is this was a defense show. Commercial aviation literally and figuratively has to like, steer its way around the geopolitical dynamics that land like boulders in a river. The. This was about collaborative combat aircraft. This was about drones, tactical transports, munitions, uncrewed systems, whether we like it or not. Russia, Ukraine, us, Israel, Iran, China, and even the European buildup in the face of all the uncertainty around the transatlantic relationship is driving the conversation. And so, you know, Even when it comes to like, how much range does an airplane need? That comes to the geopolitical question around, moving around these no fly zones that are. That are popping up all over the map. So, you know, not great days for, for commercial aerospace in that respect. I mean, yes, backlogs are huge, supply is scarce. People still want to fly in the face of it all. But the conversation within the industry is still very much tilted toward the geopolitical realities and the defense side of the business.
- [10:28]
B
What about new technology for commercial jets? Do we hear anything about that? Are we making any step changes?
- [10:35]
A
That's an excellent question because actually, I think that was really the big story of the show. This whole decade has really been about how aside from COVID and the recovery in their own supply chains and all that and geopolitics, it's really been about how planemakers figure out what technology actually goes into the next airplane. And by the way, we are going to have an episode on just the 737 A320 replacement. We'll get to that. But coming back to sort of this show, the most consequential revelation that I from where I Sit was the debut and showcase of a Saab 340B.
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C
It's A.
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A
We're going back in time. Well, this was not just any SAAB340B G era. Aerospace Beta Technologies, NASA and Boeing had modified one of the aircraft's engines to be in a hybrid electric mode. GE flew the aircraft over from the US Transatlantic two stops along the way. With it fitted with both electric motors and batteries, it was actually able to boost the CT7 gas turbine by effectively giving this aircraft the equivalent of three CT7. So it actually flew as an experimental aircraft above its certified cruising altitude because it had so much extra power on board.
- [11:50]
C
I'm sorry, I just. I just can't get over the fact that we're talking about commercial aviation in 2026. And you just combined Saab 340B and the most consequential is not something I ever thought I'd hear again here, curveball.
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A
But look, I think it's interesting because this is all part of NASA's EPFD program. It's the electrified powertrain flight demonstration project. It's been underway for a long time, but it was really designed to prove that hybrid electric technology can work in a practical application. Okay, so let's dig into this a little bit. Yes, hybrid doesn't really have a set definition yet. It really exists along a spectrum of options that range from like a limited Power boost during takeoff to assisting in crews by dialing back the gas turbine in favor of electricity from batteries. You can even use the generative power from the system to do electric taxi. This remains undefined, but it's absolutely one to watch. The goal ultimately is to is eventually be able to optimize the core of a jet engine without the constraint of the less dense air that exists at altitude that ultimately makes engines less efficient. If all of a sudden you don't need to mix air and fuel and combust everything together, instead use an electric motor, there's potentially a really significant fuel savings here. Just as a side note, I thought it was really interesting to watch the sort of shifting center of gravity as we talked about the show, but GE had an enormous presence, bigger than Boeing and really even just as large as Airbus. That Saab on display was alongside the company's 747400 testbed. By the way, very awesome seeing a 747 at an air show again, but just highly notable given GE's trajectory. If it spun off as an aerospace business a few years back, it's just driving a huge part of the industry conversation alongside newcomer Beta Technologies, which assisted with the hybrid program to get it up and running. Super interesting developments here, but again, absolutely one to watch.
- [13:56]
C
All right, so Saab 340 BS, 747, 400. What's old is new again.
- [14:02]
A
Should a Dornier 328 jet just to throw in there just for a good measure.
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C
Ooh, now that would be exciting. But here's where I get stuck. We hear about this stuff all the time, right? We hear about this electric, this hybrid SAF everything, and I feel like most of it doesn't really turn into anything consequential. So are we going to actually see this like on a single aisle aircraft at some point? Or is this all just we're messing around and it's open road or all over again?
- [14:30]
A
Short answer is yes. I think this is actually technology that makes the cut. Flying these technologies at altitude, which was really the goal of this program, comes with some really, really unique challenges. There's a lot of fascinating physics for what happens when you're flying this high for power electronics there can cause really dangerous arcing. But look, GE and the EPFD coalition figured out how to make these power electronics work above 30,000ft. That is a huge deal that solves one of the most important technical questions. And like, look, in the conversations that I had with folks, they really said this is not a technical problem anymore. This is now you get into sort of how do you optimize it and how do you start thinking about does this make the cut for a product? No, we didn't see a launch of a new airplane of any kind to the show. But sometimes these kind of technological breakthroughs, like the ones that OEMs actually want to talk about, are equally consequential and actually really signal sort of a culmination of the sort of this homework phase that we've been rolling in for the last decade to deliver this next jump in efficiency for this business. Look, it's a very mature business. The every pull of the lever gets harder every time you want to make a new product. So it's got to really deliver. But I think going to be a significant portion of whatever comes next. How this enters the final form on an engine or an aircraft is very TBD right now. But I think Boeing and Airbus are seeing hybrids as sort of this next iteration. But also what's really interesting is that the idea of propulsion and the idea of aircraft systems are really blurred. And that's going to be in terms of technical discussions, that's going to be in terms of certification. I think that's going to cause these airplanes to get defined a lot earlier than we've seen because of the, the level of integration. It's not just supplying an engine for an airplane. It's supplying an engine that has integrated power system and all the different things and how that's optimized for. Actually, you know what this actually ends up looking like?
- [16:28]
C
Well, I didn't. I wasn't ready to talk about this, but I think I'm going to do it anyway. I am in talks to have these put on my 737, 600. It's tiny little Prius airplane, little baby engines. It'll be great. We're going to have one of them.
- [16:46]
B
John, if my first love is airline cheese plates, I think that, you know, the second could be the way airlines market themselves. And I spoke to somebody at United at some point who said, you know, we're kind of playing you guys. You guys being the media. United has done a very good job of winning press coverage for itself for things that may or may not be important. So let me just ask you. I'm a marketing guy, so I have an idea of why United sent an A321XLR to this show. But purely from a aircraft angle, from needing to be at this show, why the heck was that a 321XLR there?
- [17:29]
A
The cynic in me would Contemplate that it was a reminder to Airbus that they want more of them so they can actually put them into service number one. That's probably first and foremost because it's not carrying passengers yet. But I think it's also probably a signal of the markets that they want to, they want to put this airplane into. I think it's probably going to be a UK secondary city, maybe Edinburgh or Glasgow or whatever. That's what American did with their xlr. I also thought it was really interesting that they brought it aside from my, my tongue in cheek explanation there, but this is really the first time in a very long time any of the big US airlines have been a showcase at a summer air show. We've seen JetBlue in the past. They had a 220 and a 321 a few years back, but yeah, United brought their lone first, a 321XLR. It was on static display. And of course, you know, I had to make a point of getting on board after all the media day hype from the spring. Full disclosure, this is the first XLR that I've actually been on that has had a completed interior Iberia, Aer Lingus, American haven't seen those close up. During a visit to Airbus early in the year, I got to look at production of the XLR in Hamburg and a lot of the design attributes that make it what it what it is. Most notably, for listeners who do haven't been intimately following the development of the aircraft for the last seven years, Airbus, along with other modifications designed to make it fly longer ranges, took what was effectively a modular auxiliary fuel tank and integrated into the structure behind the landing gear and the center wing box, what's called the rear center tank. This gives the aircraft a lot more range by just having a bigger bag of gas. But again, we haven't heard the first routes for the aircraft yet, but United will most likely run these out of Newark. This is what they've signaled. And just as American has run them out of JFK for Edinburgh and other transatlantic flying to Western Europe.
- [19:24]
C
Okay, so the XLR, John, now media day that we were both at and Brian was not, they had the Polaris seats sitting there on the floor, which it was as good as they could get at the time. But now you've seen them on the airplane, so talk about that a little bit. Was it what we expected it would be like?
- [19:45]
A
It was really interesting because actually with that, that very much in mind, we had a chance to try those out at the media day and I wanted to see how they felt actually in service. And they did not disappoint. There was a ton of shoulder room, I would say. And I'm going to be shameless for a moment. If you want to see photos throughout the cabin, go to photos.theaircurrent.com we just launched a new feature on the site of 25,000 photos from the industry to browse, including, yes, our photos from Farnborough. And we've got all the photos of all the little details. You can check that out there. And yes, this seat is certified.
- [20:18]
B
John, can I just stop you there for a second?
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A
Yeah.
- [20:21]
B
Take us back when you were, you know, 15, 16, 17 years old. How much time did you spend on airliners.net clicking through the pictures?
- [20:29]
A
A lot. Next question. I mean, is this surprising? I mean, my username was IAD787. Yeah, I actually have a photo or two on there also. Took a lot to get them on there, but, yeah, they're on there.
- [20:42]
C
I just want to say something to our friends that are accessing this podcast and are going to go look at these photos at their employers, at their airlines. You may need to talk to your IT departments to have them unblock the site because so much airplane porn to be found, they might get the wrong idea. So please talk to your IT team.
- [21:03]
A
Yeah, clear your history after enjoying photos that bear current.com. okay, moving right along. The seat is certified and actually had a nice little. A little holder for eyeglasses. Nice touch. For those of us with four eyes, I also saw that the new blocked middle seats in one row and economy were there. That brings the count down to a total 150 bookable seats. United will still fly with five flight attendants, but I also confess that I like Euro business class more than standard first recliners. So that was kind of cool. I think it's really about having room to spread out. More than room forward and back from where I sit. But also, like, for those of you who care about such things and you know who you are because you are our listeners and you've. You've asked me this before. United is the launch customer for Safran's G5XL galley. Interestingly enough, unit was very, very proud of it. This is a galley that's actually been structurally reshaped to allow for more carts. Even has a cubby for flight attendants to charge their phones. They were very excited about that one, too. And in case you're wondering, 50A through C is earmarked for flight attendant crew rest. That's the last row and 10A for the pilots.
- [22:19]
B
John, I'm so glad that we're finally giving aircraft interior monuments their due. Really one of the most important things for, for a Lopa is where you put your, your toilets and your, and your galleys.
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A
Unapologetically so, sir, is a podcast on the business of the sky.
- [22:39]
B
No, I actually find this stuff kind of interesting. Very interesting. But we'll do it another time. John, back to an aircraft question for you. I know some of the XLRs are already flying, many of them in fact, but there is still some skepticism over how far these airplanes can actually fly. The difference between what it says in the brochure and the difference between what a U.S. carriers, you know, risk averse managers are going to permit. Did anybody at the show tell you how far these airplanes can really fly?
- [23:12]
A
The range on this aircraft is definitely not as far as United first expected. I think that's, that's what the consensus is around the tech up side of things. Exactly how far this airplane can fly is so dependent on a ton of different factors. The winds, the. Each individual airline configuration. But interestingly, US carriers are disadvantaged on the XLR on weight and balance calculations because of U.S. rules that assign summer and winter weights to U.S. passengers that are higher than for Europeans. That's because of the mass disadvantage of North American eating habits, if you, if you will.
- [23:53]
C
Quite a way to say that. Yeah.
- [23:55]
A
So that actually eats into the range capability of the airplane for, for US configurations, extra fuel or cargo that just doesn't get carried as a result. How deep into Western Europe United's XLR can go has yet to be seen. But I think by all indications, I don't expect it to see it flying as far as places like Italy and Finland from Newark, which is kind of
- [24:18]
C
nutty because JetBlue is flying an LR from Boston to Milan. So if this thing isn't getting a ton more range, then what are we even doing here? Like the LR is going to be the rock star. I guess we'll find out. Maybe there will be changes over time.
- [24:34]
A
Yeah, well, yeah, Airbus is working on a weight improvement package for, for the airplane, but there were a lot of certification requirements that came in at the, at the very end, which actually delayed the airplane a bit around that rear center tank and making sure that it was protected in the event of a, of a belly landing. So the weight didn't go to passengers, the weight went to structure.
- [24:55]
B
John, we've barely talked about Boeing. You had a pretty big report coming out of the show. There were Some rumors out there that United might be interested in taking some very early build a triple seven EX airplanes. Presumably they could have gotten a good deal out of them. What's happening with that? What'd you learn?
- [25:16]
A
That is sort of the culmination of reporting that we did going into the show. We did a really detailed look, Julie Johnson and I, at the State of Changing Corporation for the triple seven dash nine fleet. It's almost about 40 airplanes that have been built going back to 2019 that have sat. They have not flown. That will require very, very significant change in corporation work before they can actually be put into service after the aircraft is certified in 2027. Here's the thing. Through this process, what we learned was that Boeing actually decided that one aircraft was never going to fly. It was never going to go to a customer. It was an aircraft that was originally built for emirates back in 2019 and they quietly rolled it into the factory in what we think was probably late summer last year. And it was disassembled. That obviously spurred a lot of conversation at the show. Boeing had already taken a write off on that airplane. It was embedded in in other charges that they had last year. But within that was a bigger discussion around what happens to the 777Xs. And Tim Clark, sir. Tim Clark, president of Emirates, made the point at the show during a media roundtable that the airline was not going to take any of the original 10 triple 7 dash 9s that were built for them in those early days. That decision was made a long time ago, but obviously he felt compelled to share that publicly now at the show. Obviously that would make those aircraft available for pickup by someone. There was some weird market sources rumor reporting that said United was interested. United's not interested. I asked them about this, they said, nope, no interest in that. So there are a bunch of early triple 7s that are probably going to be available fairly inexpensively. But they obviously come with some compromises because they'll be heavier because of all these, the changes that are going to be required to put them in a certified configuration and also the fact that they have been in storage for a long time. So that is on the horizon. But Boeing certainly wanted to spend the show talking about the momentum around production, which is absolutely happening. Progress on the 777 flight test program. 737. Max 7 almost certified. May be certified by the time this podcast comes out. Max 10, all that. So yeah, this was not a topic that they wanted to spend a lot of time talking about, but obviously is going to Guide also, how many airplanes are going to be available next year once deliveries actually begin. So very important as far as entry into service. But yeah, it was, it was a big, definitely a big part of the show.
- [27:54]
C
So before we go, I will ask the question that I know Brian wants to know. Was Carsten Spore there and are you best friends now?
- [28:04]
A
No, we are. We're gonna do a buddy comedy.
- [28:06]
C
We know that's not true. Nice try.
- [28:08]
A
Yeah.
- [28:09]
C
Even if he was there, he would never have acknowledged you. Yeah, but, but no, really though, did you get a sense of anything kind of behind the scenes? It was maybe different than what you two saw when you were at IATA a month and a half ago, two months ago. Has anything shifted that you're hearing differently? The war, oil, anything else that kind of caught your eye or your ear?
- [28:31]
A
I think what was sort of a sense of cautious positivity about the trajectory of things that we felt that iata, as far as the price of fuel and sort of the ability for the industry to weather high fuel, I think, you know, it, it spiked again going into the show. And so, you know, I think it's, it's sort of, this industry is so volatile and so unpredictable. But I think largely speaking, I had a chance to chat with Tim Clark. He had a roundtable with reporters and he said things are, are going business as usual as best as possible. In Dubai, though, things are not business as usual in Dubai. I mean, the Middle east is very much disrupted right now. And so it's an open question as to how this plays out. Let's see what happens a year from now. I mean, let's see if, if, if this war drags on and there is no resolution despite false starts on, on potential agreements or whatever and, and the state of oil and in demand. Let's, let's see what happens. But I, it's, I mean, certainly the tone and tenor of the show was heavily, heavily tilted toward the geopolitical realities that are, that are surrounding us right now. And you've got Ukraine, you've got Iran, you've got all these hotspots that, that are really driving the conversation around what comes next. Even more so than how do we build commercial airplanes at the volumes that are still needed even amidst all of that.
- [30:00]
B
You've been listening to the air show. If you have suggestions or questions for us or, or if you're interested in sponsoring the podcast, email us@infotheershowpodcast.com or visit theairshowpodcast.com to get in touch.
- [30:15]
C
Thanks to this week's sponsor, Skygo. Leo Duran produced and edited this episode. Our theme music is by Joshua Mosher. Thanks for listening and we'll be back soon. The xlr is for.