Podcast Summary: The Air Show
Episode: What’s wrong with American Airlines, Part 3/x
Date: October 30, 2025
Hosts: Jon Ostrower, Brett Snyder, Brian Sumers
Overview
In this third (possibly final) installment on “What’s wrong with American Airlines,” Jon Ostrower, Brett Snyder, and Brian Sumers focus on the airline’s leadership—an area insiders and observers alike cite as a root cause of ongoing struggles at America’s “flag carrier.” The trio dissect the latest C-suite shakeups, question the efficacy of new and old leaders, explore the cultural and structural hangovers since the American/US Airways merger, and debate whether bold change is possible—or whether the airline’s current direction is “irreparably” lost. The conversation is candid, at times biting, and richly informed by decades of observational and direct experience inside the industry.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Leadership Changes and the New CCO (00:38–05:24)
- New Appointment: Nat Pieper named Chief Commercial Officer (CCO), replacing interim Steve Johnson (00:52).
- Johnson returns to Chief Strategy Officer, his prior role.
- Pieper’s proximity (already OneWorld CEO based at AA HQ) and strong industry rep lauded.
- Hosts’ Take:
- Brian Sumers: “Robert [Isom] values loyalty over all else, perhaps to his detriment a little bit… There was no chance he was going to take a chance on some young hotshot from Breeze.”—(01:38)
- Jon Ostrower: Pieper described as “exacting...intensity and ruthlessness… adept chess player” but needs to balance effectiveness with “stakeholder fortification.”—(02:50–03:49)
- Brett Snyder: Warns Pieper lacks direct revenue management or sales experience, two urgent areas for American (04:55).
Notable Quote
“I think it’s a pretty strong hire and the best choice that Robert Isom could have made.”
—Brian Sumers (01:25)
2. Can a Chief Commercial Officer Fix American? (05:24–07:10)
- Delta as Benchmark: Glenn Howenstein at Delta is cited as a CCO success story, but the hosts doubt Pieper (or anyone) can match that impact without broader changes.
- Problem of Vision: Discussion shifts to CEO Robert Isom’s lack of clarity—“always seems so conflicted about whether he's a cost man or...a revenue man” (05:56).
- Both Delta (Ed Bastian and Glenn Howenstein) and United (Scott Kirby) cited as examples of defined, visible leadership.
Notable Quote
“Robert’s always been a cost man, but he’s trying to change his spots. I actually don't know how well that’s going.”
—Brett Snyder (06:11)
3. Lack of Vision and the Leadership Vacuum (07:10–13:47)
- No Clear Flag Carrier Identity:
- Jon Ostrower asks, “What is American’s vision here or what does it stand for?... How do the frontline people rally behind this airline?” (07:10–07:38)
- Frontline and Middle Management Lost:
- Brian Sumers: Emphasizes even HQ middle managers say they don’t know the direction (09:02).
- Brett Snyder: “If it was there, it shouldn’t be that hard...the gate agent in Chicago or the flight attendant in Phoenix… it impacts the service they deliver and ultimately how the customers perceive the airline” (11:05).
- Vacuum and External Narrative Domination:
- United CEO Scott Kirby’s criticisms about AA’s losses at O’Hare fill the void left by AA’s lack of communication (11:05–12:11).
Notable Quote
"...Middle management people...don’t know which way the wind is blowing. They don’t know the company's priorities."
—Brian Sumers (09:02)
Ad Segment Skipped (13:12–14:17)
4. Is This All US Airways’ (or America West’s) Fault? (14:17–19:28)
- Refuting Merger-Blame Narratives:
- Brett Snyder is emphatic: “This is not about which leadership came from where. It's just about ineffective leadership.” (15:42)
- Ostrower adds, “Like blaming McDonnell Douglas for the current state of Boeing… It became such a crutch.”
- Post-Merger Shifts:
- Praise for Doug Parker and Scott Kirby’s initial “guns blazing” post-merger strategy; AA was aggressive, ambitious (16:34).
- After Kirby left, the airline "settled back into old ways"; renewed cost focus and caution took over.
- Vasu Raja’s Reign:
- Ostrower: “He had some pretty innovative ideas. Not all were good ones...but he was pushing it forward.” (17:46)
- Snyder: “...He had to be following the CEO and the board’s lead. If they don’t think they can compete...the results were mixed at best.” (18:20)
Notable Quote
“Blaming America West for US Airways is just giving an excuse to people who should be criticized for failing their companies.”
—Brett Snyder (15:42)
5. The Post-Parker, Isom Era and Board Influence (19:28–24:14)
- Decline Post-Doug Parker?
- Sumers wonders if Parker deserves more credit, or if his leadership set up inevitable problems (19:28).
- Board’s Role:
- Jon Ostrower dives into AA Chairman Greg Smith’s Boeing legacy—driving “Partnering for Success” initiatives that hollowed out the supply chain; portends similar obsessive cost focus at AA, to its detriment (20:13).
Notable Quote
“Greg Smith was very much part of the culture Boeing is now trying to obliterate...that is generally been the leadership ethos of their chairman.”
—Jon Ostrower (21:31)
6. Contrasting Leadership Styles: Doug Parker vs. Robert Isom (21:53–24:45)
- Personal Leadership Stories:
- Brett shares anecdotes of both Parker and Isom as managers at America West; both strong one-on-one, but Parker better in "the big arena."
- Vision and Rallying the Troops:
- “Doug was very good at articulating a vision. Whether you agreed or not is a different issue, but…he would call for that leap of faith.” (22:44–23:51)
- Isom, by contrast, “feels more fragile and can’t really rally the troops in the same way.”
- Need for Architectural Vision:
- Ostrower stresses importance of “an architect”—someone like Richard Anderson, Herb Kelleher, Alan Mulally—who builds a decisive, long-term vision (23:51–24:14).
7. Struggling with Premium and Coherent Direction (24:14–29:11)
- Premium Product Miss:
- The Chief Customer Officer (Heather Garboden) reports to both sides—a symbol of indecisiveness.
- Brett: “It feels wishy-washy. There's a need for a more clear direction.” (24:14–24:45)
- Piecemal Projects:
- AA’s response to premium is “deck chairs” rather than strategic overhaul.
- Firsthand Experience:
- Sumers recounts flying AA business class, contrasts lackluster catering with United’s more customer-focused approach—“Delta showed us where this industry was going 10, 15 years ago.” (25:05–26:59)
Notable Quote
"I'm just not sure that enough people at the top at American actually understand premium, let alone fully believe in it....I'd like to see people at the airline start flying other carriers as much as they can."
—Brian Sumers (25:05)
8. AA's Recent Tactical Moves—Are They Enough? (27:30–28:09)
- Brett: “It all feels so disjointed. It doesn't feel like a broad strategic push from the top; it's just checking boxes.”
- Lack of Bold Vision:
- The leadership’s “risk aversion” is flagged, especially CEO Isom’s reluctance to spend even when it is required to drive future revenue (28:09).
9. Role of Steve Johnson and Implications of Slow Decisions (29:11–32:24)
- Steve Johnson's Tenure:
- Both Brett and Brian respect Johnson's intellect, but agree he's not a true “commercial guy.”
- His “army of SVPs” approach was a holding pattern, not bold leadership.
- Concerns that Isom’s slow decision-making trickles down, producing inertia at all levels.
Notable Quote
“If your CEO seems… scared of making the wrong decision, do you have a ‘move fast and break things’ mentality? Or do you just stare at your spreadsheet all day?”
—Brian Sumers (30:19)
- Steve’s Own Words:
- Quote from Steve Johnson at Morgan Stanley Laguna conference:
“American is a company that has, I think, been noteworthy in its really terrific management of its cost and cost structure. We've had really terrific performance, but we've been less capable at producing revenue.” (31:54)
- Quote from Steve Johnson at Morgan Stanley Laguna conference:
10. The Robert Isom Enigma and Communication Issues (32:24–36:11)
- Isom Rarely Involved:
- Brian: “Robert is such an enigma... He’s notoriously unwilling to do interviews.”
- Public forum answers are often rambling and evasive (J.P. Morgan conference example: 33:14–34:24).
- Delta/United Set Industry Pace; AA Left in Limbo:
- The airline lacks outward signs of a strategy shift outside prepared remarks.
Notable Quote
“It just feels like American doesn't know who it wants to be and why....this isn’t simply about being premium or value. This is about setting a long term goal and focusing a team on achieving it. The frontline wants to be led and they want to be led with a vision for the future.”
—Jon Ostrower (34:56–35:41)
11. Can AA Become the Third U.S. Premium Airline—or Is the Ship Sunk? (36:11–End)
- Scott Kirby’s Famous Jab:
- Ostrower: “Scott Kirby has a way of trying to manifest what he hopes will happen… He has just enough data to suggest American has lost its chance to compete.” (36:11)
- Still, the hosts agree the story is not over:
“There is room for improvement and there is leadership to be done here. And this is not irreparable.”
—Jon Ostrower (37:10)
Memorable Quotes with Timestamps
- “Robert values loyalty over all else, perhaps to his detriment a little bit.”
—Brian Sumers (01:38) - “Nat...intensity and ruthlessness...an adept chess player...”
—Jon Ostrower (02:58) - “Robert’s always been a cost man, but he’s trying to change his spots.”—Brett Snyder (06:11)
- “Middle management...don’t know which way the wind is blowing.”
—Brian Sumers (09:02) - “Blaming Americawest for US Airways is just giving an excuse to people who should be criticized for failing their companies.”
—Brett Snyder (15:42) - “Deck chairs, if you will.”
—Jon Ostrower (27:38) - “If your CEO... is scared of making the wrong decision, do you move fast and break things, or do you just stare at your spreadsheet all day?”
—Brian Sumers (30:19) - “American...has been less capable at producing revenue.”
—Steve Johnson (paraphrased by Jon Ostrower) (31:54) - “It just feels like American doesn’t know who it wants to be and why… This is about setting a long-term goal and focusing a team on achieving it.”
—Jon Ostrower (34:56) - “There is room for improvement and there is leadership to be done here. And this is not irreparable.”
—Jon Ostrower (37:10)
Important Segment Timestamps
- Introduction and Topic Setup: 00:00–00:38
- New CCO Announcement & Leadership Chemistry: 00:52–05:24
- Can Leadership Fix American? Delta/United Comparisons: 05:24–07:10
- Vision, Identity & Communication Breakdown: 07:10–13:47
- US Airways/America West Blame Debated: 14:17–19:28
- Doug Parker, Board Influence & Cost Focus: 19:28–24:14
- Premium Push, Piecemeal Projects, and Execution: 24:45–29:11
- Slow Decisions and Cultural Impact: 29:11–32:24
- Robert Isom’s Public Perception/Communication: 32:24–36:11
- Can American Compete as “Third Premium”?: 36:11–37:10
Conclusion
This episode offers an unflinching assessment of American Airlines’ strategic malaise at the top. While the new CCO appointment is seen as a promising, if cautious, move, the larger problems—from unresolved identity, lack of bold leadership, and an entrenched cost obsession—remain unresolved. The hosts, drawing on deep industry experience and inside knowledge, suggest that meaningful turnaround is still possible, but only with clear vision, decisiveness, and an embrace of the premium market—none of which are yet visible in American’s top ranks.