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- [00:02]
A
I'm Brian Summers and I write the Airline Observer.
- [00:05]
B
I'm Jon Ostrower, editor in chief of the Air Current. You're listening to the Air show, the podcast where we talk about what goes on in the business of the sky. Well, I'm really excited about this week's episode and left my own device. I got to pick the guest this week. We have a great interview lined up and it's with someone that I've wanted to have on the show for a really long time. You know him from his insanely entertaining and illuminating YouTube video series, cockpit Casual. Steve Giordano is the founder of Nomadic Aviation Group and one of the most well traveled humans on the planet who has more active type ratings than he does fingers. By way of background, you could call Steve a ferry pilot in the same way you'd call Picasso a doodler. But Steve is a former Marine turned airline pilot who flew for years for Allegiant before going in the entrepreneurial route and launching Jet Test and later Nomadic Aviation Group. And I am very excited to have him on the show this week.
- [00:59]
A
John, I'm excited for this as well. It's a bit unusual for us to have a pilot here on the show, even a pilot who runs a business, but I have to confess that I've seen every one of Steve's YouTube videos and looking forward to this.
- [01:14]
B
Steve Giordano, welcome to the Air Show.
- [01:16]
C
Thanks. John and Brian, good to meet you finally. Brian and John, good to see you again. It's been a little while.
- [01:23]
B
It has, it has. We're going to get into all the flying and the travel and, and stuff. But, but given that this first and foremost is a podcast about the business of the sky. Tell us a little bit about your aviation business and given the sort of the tumult of the past six years, unprecedented tumult with, through the pandemic. Where is the industry right now from where you sit?
- [01:44]
C
We're a business that, that and I think I mentioned it on the last episode of Cockpit Casual or business that rides the rides the currents, right. The, the water has to be moving, not stagnant. When things are dead and nothing's happening, our business is slow. So we ride, you know, we ride the wave up, we ride the wave down. And so we're always rooting for, for change in this business. And you know, the company is, is a niche little aviation operation. I've got 12 employees and then about 3:30 to 40 contractors, mostly contract pilots depending on how busy we are and you know, what we do for the most part is we deliver aircraft on behalf of the leasing companies to airlines. We take them away when the leases expire. And then we also have a variety of airline clients that utilize our services to move their airplanes to and from heavy maintenance so that they don't have to utilize their own crews. And those are usually like long haul to like you know, a South American airline doing maintenance in Abu Dhabi or Singapore or something like that. So right now things are very slow. And, and I got to say, like, it's really been, I mean, we've seen this level of slow before, but never before for this long. In 23 years, 24 years of doing this, I've never seen it stay this dead for this long. And there's a variety of variables and factors that, as to why that's actually a perfect segue.
- [03:12]
B
I mean, do you see Nomadic's business as sort of a leading or trailing indicator of the industry's health?
- [03:20]
C
I think it can be, you know, I think, I think generally we're more of a canary in the coal mine when the industry is sick. I mean, in the US the airlines are pretty transparent, you know, publicly traded and so forth. You know, the, everyone can see when things are, are not great and usually the factors are, are visible to the public as well. But our industry, my business really does minimal work with the US Airlines. And although we do have quite a few US lessor clients, in most cases those lessors have Irish offices, Singapore offices. So they're not even really US businesses. So we're a US based US business, but our business comes 90%, maybe even 95% internationally. So a lot of the things that are kind of happening overseas sometimes happen without the same kind of visibility that, that, that the American Airlines have. And when we see a region start lighting up, when we see a lot of stuff happening, it's certainly, it's certainly an indicator. And right now, really, to be honest with you, the last year, the perfect example of that has been the part outs coming out of China. Honestly, that's what's pretty much keeping the lights on right now for us. It's a feast or famine business. There are, there are years where we do so much work we could barely keep up. You know, I, Bob and I have the conversation and we say, you know, do we hire another dispatcher? Do we need to bring on some more, more contract pilots, you know, to deal with all this work?
- [04:57]
A
Steve, Bob's your partner in the business, is that that right?
- [05:00]
C
Yeah. Bob Allen. Yep. Captain Bob, as he's known. So we always have to keep in mind that it's going to, it's going to be famine eventually. Right. And we got to keep our costs low. But part out the retirement of, of mostly 737 undesirables. We call them the 700s. The 319s are the big ones and then the 321cos.
- [05:21]
B
And that was your latest episode? Yes, that just that, that one just dropped on Cockpit Casual the other day. Yes, I immediately watched it. I won't give away too much, but it's a journey from the unimag cold of Northern China in Harbin, where actually Embraer used to make regional jets for Chinese airlines. That's not far from Siberia and it's a journey from there through India all the way to Muscat in Oman. You and your pat, your co pilot are ferrying a retiring Sichuan Airlines A319 to the UK for part out and purchase of its engines. Are engines the thing that's really driving the business right now?
- [05:59]
C
Absolutely. The, the, the CFM 56 specifically, more so than anything else. And that's, I would say primarily because the client that, that we do a lot of work for, it just happens to be very interested in CFM56s for a variety of reasons. It's 100% an engine, an engine play, I mean, and just to a lesser degree NG parts. Right. There's a lot of parts commonality between the 700s and the 800s, the 319 and the 320 and the 321. So, but, but in this particular case it was more of an engine play and the aircraft came out of Harbin. And so far, part one, you've seen us get to Muscat, Oman, but that aircraft was actually destined for Saint Athens in Wales and it's one of, you know, a dozen probably facilities that, that really specialize in part out. E Cube is a business that, you know, they, they, they're a dismantler. So I mean they, they separate the engines and APU from the airframe and they're shipped to, you know, an overhaul shop or in most cases they're, they're either providing just engine materials for overhauls. I could go ahead and even, you know, identify the client. Fti, FTAI Aviation, they have a huge engine business now, Right. It's an engine leasing business. They do power by the hour. Massive, massive.
- [07:27]
B
I mean the engine business is just, it's, it is the pacing item for the entire growth of the industry.
- [07:33]
C
Absolutely. And you know, just to go back into why like the factors as to why the industry is so slow. For us right now, a big part of that is, is the leap in gtf, specifically the GTF engine issues. Right. Like I thought that was going to resolve in a year, maybe two. It's still a major, major problem. Not so much that. I mean, they are, you know, they're definitely making a dent in taking them off wing and getting them back on. But you know, it doesn't, it doesn't change the timing. The airlines that we're expecting to receive aircraft or the airlines that were expecting to receive additional aircraft are having to use their COs and NGs, you know, in the meantime. And so they've extended leases on all those aircraft and, and that's not like a month by month thing. They extended them by a year, by two years, by three years. So we're not really seeing the end, you know, the end of that yet. But we are expecting a massive spike once those leases start expiring. And from what I'm told that's going to happen kind of fourth quarter this year and then 2027 is going to be a huge fleet replenishment, which, you know, Boeing and Airbus both ramping up.
- [08:46]
A
Steve, I also watched the episode, I watched it last night. Great stuff.
- [08:50]
C
Thanks.
- [08:51]
A
I enjoy the show very much. But at the risk of getting in trouble with pilots, which I do do sometimes, I can't but help but notice your job outside of maybe takeoff and landing, it looks a little. Maybe boring is the word. So I've watched all these episodes and you and your co pilot, you spend some time pacing the cabin, then you get a coffee, then you get a snack, then you take a little snooze. Well, by nature I'm going somewhere with this. But look, Airbus says it's reasonable in the 121 world, in the US or anywhere around the world, to have a single pilot in the cockpit during cruise. And we know that us pilot unions are apoplectic about that. They talk about the importance of safety. Is this really about safety? Is it about protecting the jobs? I won't blame them if it is about jobs. Cause that's a union's job. Of course. But can you level with us? Do we need two pilots at cruise?
- [09:54]
C
I mean, you certainly today's technology, these are two pilot aircraft, you know, and with the exception of somebody going to the back to use the lav or to stretch their legs for a minute, you know, one pilot is completely capable. I mean, let's be honest, I mean, if all things are going well Nobody is necessary. You know, human wise, the aircraft follows, you know, the route programmed into the fmc. And then when you're out over the ocean, I mean, there's really not anybody to talk to unless you, you know, you're, you're crossing a position report waypoints. But to answer your question, by design, the current technology requires two pilots in the cockpit at all times. I don't think, and I'm 48 years old, I don't think in my lifetime we're going to see no pilot aircraft. But I very much think that we're going to see single pilot crews first. And I think we're going to see it at the cargo airlines. First airlines will immediately start recognizing cost savings by running a crew of two and allowing one crew member to take rest. But you know, the redundancy required for that is going to have to be completely automated flight because you lose the one point of failure when you have two human beings in a cockpit. You know, no matter what brakes on the airplane, you would need at least one guy. And if that guy is out of the equation now, you're a single point of failure. Right. So once aircraft are engineered and tested and demonstrated to be able to be completely autonomous, we then find ourselves in the realm where we can start talking realistically about single pilot crews or light crew long haul. Right. I mean, I guess that's probably the best way to describe it. Instead of having three pilots, instead of having four pilots that rotate in, you're talking about a crew of two where extended duty periods, you know, with one pilot in the cockpit can happen. And that will require the aircraft identify problems, troubleshoot problems, and ultimately land safely without any human intervention. The tech is, was probably there 20 years ago, really. But you know, it's going to be slow implementation and I think people will be responsive to single pilot in the cockpit. I think passengers will receive that well, once it's been proven out on the cargo side. That's my opinion.
- [12:19]
B
Yeah. So kind of following that same kind of track, I was back to more of the human side of things. But so some of our listeners know that I actually had a chance to fly with you and Bob a few years back.
- [12:29]
C
Yeah.
- [12:30]
B
Arguably. Still, I consider it my greatest aviation adventure. I genuinely, genuinely.
- [12:36]
C
We got to do it again.
- [12:37]
B
We have to do it again. I twist my arm. So I met up with Steve and Bob in Philadelphia, where we flew there from Philly to Doha and then on to Singapore. That was about a two day journey just to get where to actually get
- [12:49]
C
to the airplane, just to get there,
- [12:51]
B
just to get there. And we were picking up a brand new converted 767 freighter for LATAM cargo, pristine airplane. And we left Singapore in the late afternoon and flew nonstop eastbound to Honolulu through the night, past Guam, Philippines, Brunei, and we spent the day in Honolulu resting before leaving Hawaii at about like, like what, two o' clock in the morning or so?
- [13:18]
C
Yeah, it was the middle of the night.
- [13:20]
B
Oh man, that was such a fun trip. Look, I, I also contend that like those like three or four days of flying are as close to space flight as I will ever come. Yeah, like it was three guys trapped in a tin can in a, in a piece of technology designed in the late 70s. Yeah, you know it's, and, but it would, I think it, you know, just the three of us in the flight deck and, and it would made me appreciate this at the time, the complexity of this business.
- [13:46]
C
Yeah.
- [13:46]
B
But also just how human it is in terms of, in terms of this, the getting from, from point A to point B. I mean one of the things that really stood out to me that kind of hits on sort of this idea of, of single pilot operations which I personally am of the view that there are too many technological and societal forces that are going to slow that down considerably. Again, think cargo is absolutely where it's going to happen. Short haul, you know, look, we have drones. But I think that coming back to sort of the big picture, like we were in the cockpit and it's obviously all on part 91 ops. So there's a lot of flexibility there in terms of how, how you manage rest and how you manage operations and all that. But I'm watching all these videos that you're making and that experience. How does fatigue work for you when you travel? How do you manage rest? And when you're on a 24 hour mission, does your body just get used to it after a while? But how do you think about how you structure that?
- [14:42]
C
Yes and no. So it's a complicated answer actually. So first and foremost, when we fly off US reg, so if we're flying two reg, you know, Cayman, Chilean, we are not subject to part 91 limitations. Like you know, we are subject to basically the equivalent of Part 121 time and duty limitations. Ferry flying is more demanding than, than airline flying for a variety of reasons. One, in most cases on the long hauls, when we don't have CPDLC data link, not only do we not have that, we have to do position reports, HF position reports and so forth. We also rarely have a database that's current, there's generally a database. So we're always having to build each user fix based on our current nav pubs. So we get a route coming from our flight planning system and it has all the current data and then we have to build each fix and limitation for, for, for a SID or a star or enroute or whatever. So that keeps us really busy. How do I manage it? Well, each trip is kind of different. It really, it comes down to who the crew is and what they're, what they're comfortable with. Bob and I have been doing it for a long time and I would say when we were younger it was a lot easier to remain fresh and alert. And I mean, gosh, I mean, when I was in my 20s and 30s, I mean I, I legitimately could stay awake for 24 hours and be fine. That has gotten more difficult as I've aged. Right. It's just like, it's just, you know, you fatigue easier, you fatigue earlier. I mean, you know, I don't, I don't drink, I don't smoke. I, you know, I just, you can't do things that are going to mess with, with your, with your cycle. It's bad enough that you're, you know, you're not able to necessarily rest to the point that you normally would. So lots of water, electrolytes, you know, sodium, you know, element. I drink those like crazy. And, and you know, a healthy diet, kind of lay off the carbs because that can make you rush and then make you tired. It's really that kind of balance. But the most important thing is getting into a place early, getting the rest that you need and then being able to do it. And if you reach the point where you can't do it, you know, all you have to do is land at the next place and stop and rest. And you know, it's because I think
- [17:13]
B
that, you know, it's fascinating, you take that and then you combine it with the fact that you're flying a different aircraft every time. How many type ratings do you have at this point? What are you up to now?
- [17:21]
C
12. I have 12. I'm not current on all of them, but, you know, the A320 series, 19, 20, 21 counts as one. The 330, those two, we fly all the time. So I stay current on those. The 737, I stay current on that all the time. And the 7, 5, 7 6, I've been a little bit lazier about because we're seeing fewer and fewer, you know, again, it's Everyone always. How can you, how can you just bounce between aircraft types? A Boeing is a Boeing and a bus is a bus. The 320, the 330, the 340, they're the same airplane. I mean, there's differences, there's systems differences in the systems and limitations, empty trim settings, you know, how to deal with the trim tank in the 330, 340. I mean, there's, there's some differences. Hydraulic systems are different. But like the, the minute by minute, day to day of flying an Airbus is the same across Airbuses and it's the same with Boeing, except the 787, which is its own animal.
- [18:24]
B
And how do you manage each individual flight knowing that you're going back and forth between different cockpits? I mean, it's, it seems like it's more like who you're flying with more than kind of what you're flying.
- [18:35]
C
Yeah, it can be. So like at this point, you know, Bob and I became, we qualified on the 787 a number of years ago now I think maybe like five or six years ago, it was like kind of in the beginning of COVID and we haven't flown a lot of them, I mean, just by nature. So I mean, we're both current and qualified as PIC on the 787, but neither of us have much time on them. I mean, a couple hundred hours. Yeah, every time we fly one it's, you know, it's 30 hours in the bank. Right. Because I mean, all we do is these long hauls. So a couple hundred hours on the airplane and it's such a unique beast, it's such a different airplane that the 787, I am not real comfortable jumping into a 7, a 78 with Bob and no one else at this point. And so what we try to do is we try to pair ourselves with somebody that's a lot more experienced in the type. We have a bunch of retired guys that work for us. Retired, United, retired, Air Canada, you know, retired guys that were flying in the Middle East. We'll bring one of those guys along on a 7 8. And then once you do a couple of trips, you get kind of back in the rhythm and then it becomes easy. Like right now, it's been so long since I've flown a Dreamliner that I would absolutely want to bring a more qualified guy along on that trip just to give me the confidence to do it and you know, to get back into currency as far as the 7:3. I mean, we have so many hours, I Mean, I probably have, I don't know, eight or nine thousand hours in the seven, three, probably the same on the bus. I don't know. I've got about 24,000 hours now, I think. I don't know. I don't really log everything manually anymore. Once you have so much time in an aircraft, it's, it really does kind of become a no brainer. But of course we do recurrence as well.
- [20:24]
B
When are you going to add the 350 to your ticket?
- [20:26]
C
So we, we still haven't gotten to the point where we're seeing a lot of 350 movements come our way and we do have enough contractors to hold down the Ford if we do get the odd 350 here or there. So I don't have any plans to get it right now. We have, we did, we delivered a few to Delta a number of years ago from, from a lessor and we used retired Delta pilots for that. Now the 350 is also a little, a little complicated, at least from, from the FAA perspective because to my knowledge there's still not a Part 91 type rating course available for the A350 in the US it is a differences course, but it is a completely different non common Type to the A330, which I don't know, I don't know anything about the airplane. I'm told it's very similar to the 330 in EASA. It's a common type. So you know, EASA pilots qualify on one, they're, they're qualified on both. It's not the case here in the US So right now there isn't even a path for me to get an A350 type rating in the U.S. we do have a few easy. A couple of our EASA contractors are EASA A350 typed because it's, it's a concurrent type.
- [21:42]
A
Steve, I already tried to get you in trouble with alpa. We'll see how that goes based on what emails you get.
- [21:49]
C
Oh, that's fine. We don't care.
- [21:50]
A
I'd like to get you into some more trouble because in addition to watching your YouTube series, I follow you on social media and I really appreciate how outspoken you've been about certain things, especially as it relates to what's going on in the cockpit. So last week the US Transportation Secretary, Sean Duffy introduced a new mandatory ops spec for commercial airlines. So not you, but you're familiar with it and you used to work at a commercial airline. He wants airlines to formally commit to merit based hiring for pilots. What's that about? And should we stop promoting based on seniority as well? What's going on here?
- [22:34]
C
That's an interesting point about seniority, right? I don't want to alienate listeners. You know, my political persuasions are pretty commonly known. I'm, you know, I'm a centrist. I'm not a big fan of the current administration. I never have been. What these guys do day in and day out is that, is they gaslight us, in my opinion. I think that they find a topic that creates a certain itch that the public wants to scratch. And, and it's a, it's a social, social, cultural, culture war type type issue, in my opinion. I think that there is, there is always maybe a kernel of truth to these things. The airlines have really focused in the last 10 years. Several airlines, I know, Alaska, United, I've heard airlines focus on bringing in more women, bringing in more minorities. I think that's a good thing. I think that it's a, it's a, it's a career field that has historically been quite homogenous, I guess, with, with, with, with pilots. You know, pilots tend to be white males in the United States. And you know, seniority lists are very, very much made up with that demographic. And there are very few people of color, are very few women on the seniority list. And you know, of course the airlines would like to increase diversity for a lot of reasons. And I think that it's a noble cause. But at the same time, I don't, I find it hard to believe that merit is not still the most important driving factor. And you have to understand that there are no different standards for airmen, for pilots. And when I say airmen, air mankind, right? Men, women, everyone has to pass the same checkride, have the same medical qualification, has to have the same licenses and ratings. And as much as, you know, a minority or somebody who is underrepresented or less represented in the, in the industry, maybe, you know, be perceived as being less qualified. I mean, what, they're still passing the checkrides. There's no reason that someone isn't going to get an easier checkride because they're buddies with the guy given the checkride if they're a white male. I mean, it's just impossible to, you know, there are established standards set and every pilot has to meet those established standards. And to say otherwise, I think it's kind of a false flag type of a situation. I think that it's frustrating.
- [25:40]
B
Okay, so as we're talking about checkrides and qualifications how's this for a segue? I really want to talk about the Rehearsal.
- [25:48]
C
Oh, yeah, okay.
- [25:49]
B
I have to ask you about it. So this is the HBO show the Rehearsal, season two, which is the one that we're going to particularly focus on here. Again, like, cockpit casual. I cannot possibly recommend it more. And there is, in fact, a. A great crossover there. Comedian, maybe philosopher, genius. I don't know what we call it. Nathan Fielder effectively spends an entire season trying to understand the interpersonal relationship between pilots on the flight deck and the challenges they have in communicating effectively and a very clear impact on aviation safety. It is genuinely, honestly, one of the most incredible pieces of television I have ever seen, period. I don't want to give away some of the season's biggest surprises. And if our listeners have not watched it, you need to run to HBO and watch it right now.
- [26:40]
C
Six episodes.
- [26:41]
B
Yeah, right. You'll binge it. How did you get connected with Nathan? And also tell us about his role with Nomadic now.
- [26:49]
C
Yeah, so. And let me just preface, you know, by saying I'm under layer after layer after layer of NDA with hbo.
- [26:59]
B
No doubt.
- [27:00]
C
So. So I have to. I have to tread carefully with a lot of this stuff. I had watched Nathan Fielder over the years kind of on, like, comedy. Some of the Nathan for you stuff, like. But it never really registered. Like, I just kind of watched it. I think I've watched it on YouTube, actually. I don't even know that I watched it on Comedy Central. So I knew who he was, but he wasn't, like, in my head very often. So I get an email randomly from a guy, an HBO producer, who said, this was probably two years ago. Hey, we are doing a program. I was wondering if you can jump on a call because we have some aviation problems that need to be solved, and your public Persona seems like you'd be the kind of guy that would be able to help us with that. So that's how it started. I got a call from one of the producers. The first call was a zoom call. There was a dozen faces on the screen. In retrospect, one of them was Nathan, but I didn't notice. And I think, you know, they told me, you know, we looked at your eyes, and we wanted to see if you were, like, starstruck by seeing Nathan, because I guess he had done a lot of the talking on the call and didn't even register with me. I was just answering their questions and saying, this is feasible. That's not feasible. That's not feasible. That you'll never get that Done. Yeah, I think we could probably get that done. And that started a two year journey that was like nothing I've ever done in my life. I mean, and you know, one of the wildest things about it is I was a consultant, I'm credited as a consultant on it. And I can't really go into everything that I did, but it was a long time in the works. And throughout that time, until it was released, until literally the episodes aired on hbo, I did not have the slightest idea what the show was about. So the way it was spoon fed to me was here's a problem, can you solve it? Here's another problem, can you solve it? And they would compound and you know, the stuff that goes on, especially on the last episode of that show, I'm not going to give away anything. You got to go watch it.
- [29:09]
B
Oh, it's amazing.
- [29:10]
C
But the logistics required to make the final episode possible was like every nomadic trip combined times 10. I mean there were times where I'm like, this ain't gonna work. And there were times where like. And so what, what, what really ended up making it possible and, and it's all real. Like that's, that's the thing to keep in mind when you watch this. Everything you see is real. It was just a lot of different things to kind of work through constant calls. I will say at the, we got paid handsomely for it, but if you divide out the total amount of hours that I worked on that with how much we got, it was definitely like a penny a day. But I, I did it for the fun. And, and Nathan and I to this day are, you know, are friends and you know, we talk and we catch up and as, as are some of the producers and writers. Just great, interesting guys. You asked about Nathan still working for us. You know, we have a lot of pilots, they're contractors and, and Nathan has, has flown a couple of flights with us. I haven't flown with him in, in quite a while now. And it's always, it's a matter of. Well, he's only typed on one airplane for one. So he's typed on the 737. So right there that eliminates a lot of possibilities. He's also not a very experienced pilot. He's quite good for his, for his amount of experience that he, I mean he's actually legitimately like, he's a smart guy. So I guess you have a lot of pilots that listen to the show, right? He's like one of those nerds that like studies and then goes and can ace the oral. But then he'll ask you some question. You're like, how do you not know that? But then as soon as you tell him, he retains it, right? And that's just a lack of experience talk. I mean, the guy is probably 500 hours total time, but he has a 737 type rating. You know, obviously there's a pic limitation on it because he doesn't have an ATP, but he can fly the hell out of the 737, man. I mean, I, I've. I've watched him landed in Brazil. I've. He's landed it in Joburg. You know, he took off at a. At a lot of conga, Ecuador, like, you know, a high elevation. That was the. I don't know that I can go app. We did a trip after the show where he took off at a lot of conga. It was. What is it, 9,000ft? 8, 8,500. I mean, it's a very high elevation airport surrounded by the Cotopaxi mountains. I mean, these huge mountains, you know, in the Andes. And the airplane is like, you know, I mean, we're. It says 737 getting delivered to Sapphire. It's raining, it's IMC. It's got a wet Runway, it's a short Runway, there's no tower. And I get Nathan in the right seat on this thing and I'm like, all right, man, it's your leg. He's. And we're sitting here with the windshield wipers, like, he's like, just sitting there trying to get. He's like, all right, I'm just going to go. I'm just going to go do it. Okay. I'm like, yes. Set power. You know, power set. 80 knots, thrust normal. And he takes off and he get in the flight director. Getting the flight director. So, I mean, he's done it. He's done all the stuff that we do, you know, while receiving instruction. So it's. It's been wild. I mean, he's just such an interesting dude, man. Like, just, you know, there's a reason these guys are famous and they are skilled actors and it's not just because of. They were in the right place at the right time. Like his brain, man, it's like always going. And he's just pretty much always entertaining. And he's very much like the Nathan that you see on tv. Maybe a little less awkward, but I wouldn't say that much less. But as. Aren't we all? Aren't we all?
- [33:07]
A
Steve? I agree with you and John that people should watch the show. But when I do talk to, especially people at pilot unions or even at US Airlines about. About the show, they shake their heads and they tend to be very upset. And then if they have seen the show, they tell other people not to watch the show.
- [33:26]
B
Really?
- [33:27]
A
I think that's because a lot of the pilots on the show did not come out looking very good. Right. We saw some pilots who probably should have been on antidepressants, but weren't. We saw other pilots who really struggled to communicate with their colleagues or women they were trying to go on dates with. Like, I know that there was an agenda to this show, but should we be concerned about some of the things that we saw in this program?
- [33:52]
C
I have no skin in the game here. I don't care. I can't get fired by anybody in the airline. You know, I don't care if I piss off the airlines. That show. Now, I wouldn't say that it. Let me start with this, okay? They nailed it. Okay? Those are real live personalities that every pilot knows, sees, and deals with all the time in their jobs. And if that doesn't look good, well, you know, there are sections of this. Of this industry. There are slices of this industry that would. That would shock people. As to the personalities of some of the people that are up there doing the job doesn't mean they can't do the job well, usually. So. Look, one of the things that I told Nathan immediately after the show aired is I said, I know you were trying to be outrageous, but you found the perfect cross section of. Of weirdo pilots. Now, I will say there's one of them for every 15 or 20. Okay. The vast majority of the pilots out there are just solid folks in every sense of the word, but they're, you know, it's like any other business. You're not going to find, like, you're going to find every example of lunatic flying airplanes that you. That. And it's the same in medicine, and it's the same in business, and it's the same in podcasting. There are lunatics around us, among us.
- [35:23]
B
You know, honestly, I mean, I came away feeling. I mean, I. I partially agree with Brian on this one. I also. I also really felt. I don't know if you guys feel this way, that, like, that whole season was really an ode to the piloting profession.
- [35:37]
C
Yeah.
- [35:38]
B
And I thought it really captured what the profession was and all of the pressures around it and all the realities and all of. And all of the. The complexities of it. I think it was Just, I, God, I'm still blown away to this day at how masterful it was. Just incredible. And frankly, I think some of the, some of the conclusions that they came away with weren't even intentional. Yeah, but they just, but they managed to stick the landing so perfectly.
- [36:03]
C
So, I mean, I will say that some of, some of the guys that you saw, like, none of the main character pilots, except for the one in the final episode that, that is prominently featured throughout the episode. He's a very good friend of mine.
- [36:19]
B
And if you watch closely, in a few episodes of Cockpit Casual, you might, you might actually see him in there.
- [36:24]
C
Yep. He is, he is your neighbor up in Seattle. He is a captain at Alaska Airlines. Aaron Ava is one of my best friends and he was perfectly suited for the role, personality wise. He wasn't acting. That's, that's him.
- [36:40]
B
It really is. It really is.
- [36:41]
C
You know, and I knew it was going to be that way, but the dude is going to like, that's why it was so perfect. You know, he's a very experienced 737 pilot and like just that he's part of the Alaska test flight test program. So he does takes the airplanes out of maintenance and flight test. So I mean, he's, he is a test pilot through and through. And he's also an airline pilot and he looks like a baby, but he's not. He's got four kids. You know, he's 40, but, but he doesn't look it. But anyway, a lot of the pilots, what I was saying is a lot of the pilots that were kind of featured, when you see the zooms with all the faces or when like there was like a reality show that happened, remember there was a singing show that was happening concurrently. That's another whole thing. You got to watch the show. A lot of those guys were my guys.
- [37:29]
B
Yeah.
- [37:31]
C
And then a lot of the others, they just kind of did like an open call for pilots. And there were airline pilots and I know that a lot of them, several of them got in trouble afterwards. And I know one guy lost his job over.
- [37:45]
A
Wow.
- [37:46]
C
And I think it's silly, but it is what it is.
- [37:49]
B
Interesting. Interesting. Okay, so stepping back from HBO for a moment, latest episode of Cockpit Casual has dropped. You've got another one coming up. Like, it's like, it's a whole unique level of global storytelling. And you know, I, I, I am, I am totally your hype man for this. So I, I understand my role here, but like, it is, I described it once as Anthony Bourdain meets Just planes. I mean, if it really does fit that way. But I want to know, like, what's ahead for you and Baba with the channel. Where do you want to take this next?
- [38:17]
C
When I started ferrying airplanes to these, you know, to Africa and like, you know, Eastern Europe and like, Russia and China, it was more. It was more about the destinations than the actual ferrying for me. I mean, the flying of the airplanes, it was fun, and that's what I do. But, like, being somewhere different was what really made me fall in love with this profession and what ultimately made me leave the airline world in favor of a life nomadic. Right. And you know, what the show is really doing is it's doing the same. It's going from. I mean, it's mostly avgeeks that watch it. I've got a lot of pilots. I mean, every time I walk through an airport, I'm approached, and it's always by pilots. And which. Which is flattering, man.
- [39:00]
A
Like, they may not like you very much after this show.
- [39:03]
C
Nah, you know, the vast majority of these. These pilots out there think the way I do. I think the fact that the show keeps professional aviators entertained, but also complete laymen who don't travel at all, and aviation enthusiasts and people that are in it for the travel or in it for the hijinks. I mean, I try to keep it light and keep it funny. I put enough aviation in it, but I still try to keep it interesting with, like, anecdotes and so on and so forth. So where's it going? I want to do something bigger and that reaches more people. And what I think that we have is a show that's more about the people in my orbit and the airplanes and the adventure. And it doesn't have to be super geeky and it doesn't have to be super food oriented. So I don't know. We'll see.
- [39:56]
B
Awesome. Steve, thank you so much for joining us. This was an absolute blast. And I got to figure out a way to stow away with you again pretty soon.
- [40:05]
C
Yes, absolutely, man. You do. I'll start putting some trips in front of you if you can come along. Let's do an. Let's do one of these from the road.
- [40:13]
B
Oh, my God, twist my arm. We'll bring you, Brian and Brett along. Yeah. Okay.
- [40:22]
A
You listening to the Air Show? If you have suggestions or questions for us, or if you're interested in sponsoring the podcast, go to our website, theairshowpodcast.com to get in touch.
- [40:33]
B
Leo Duran produced and edited this episode. Our theme music is by Joshua Mosher. Thanks for listening and we'll be back soon.