The Al Franken Podcast

Episode: Catherine Rampell on The End of The Shutdown

Date: November 16, 2025
Host: Al Franken
Guest: Catherine Rampell (op-ed columnist for The Bulwark, MSNBC weekend prime time co-host, formerly of The Washington Post)

Overview

This episode tackles the recent (and record-breaking) government shutdown, focusing on its political and economic implications. Al and Catherine break down the fraught negotiations in Congress, discuss the ethics and tactics of the Trump administration, analyze the broader impacts on American households, and explore current debates over tariffs, the economy, and AI. Along the way, they touch on breaking political news, especially related to the Epstein files. The episode features sharp, humorous exchanges throughout, maintaining a blend of seriousness and wit.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Breaking News: The Epstein Files and Congressional Drama

[00:45–05:27]

• Al opens with the drama surrounding the imminent release of the Epstein files, highlighting a damning Epstein email implicating Trump and the political fallout for Republicans.
• The White House reportedly exerts maximum pressure (by summoning Rep. Lauren Boebert to the Situation Room) to prevent release but ultimately fails. Boebert stands her ground, publicly taunting the administration.
• The release of the Epstein files is presented as an issue transcending partisanship, with overwhelming public support expected.
• Al details allegations about Ghislaine Maxwell receiving preferential prison treatment and her efforts to petition Trump for commutation.

Memorable Quote:

“If you knew the guy was a pedophile, you probably should have said something...even if the guy was your best friend for 10 years, you really gotta say something.”
—Al Franken, [02:01]

2. Catherine Rampell’s Career Update and Rebranding at MSNBC

[05:27–06:33]

• Catherine has just transitioned from The Washington Post to The Bulwark, and is co-hosting the rebranded MSNBC “Weekend Prime Time.”
• Emphasis on her beat: economics, public policy, and politics.

3. The End of the Government Shutdown: Winners, Losers, and the Human Impact

[06:42–19:39]

• The shutdown, at 43 days, is the longest ever—Al and Catherine dissect why bipartisanship failed and the costs incurred for so little gained.
• Democrats ultimately agree to end the shutdown; only a vague promise remains for a future healthcare vote, which may never materialize.
• The administration took actively punitive steps against SNAP recipients: seeking legal means to block food aid, forcing states to claw back funds, and even threatening to eject grocers from the SNAP program for giving discounts to the hungry, all to maximize perceived suffering and pressure Democrats.

Memorable Quotes:

“This administration worked really, really hard to ensure maximum suffering, to ensure people stayed hungry.”
—Catherine Rampell, [12:14]

“They sent out a letter to all retailers that participate in the SNAP program and said, you better not give people a discount. If you do, we’re going to take away your ability to participate in this program.”
—Catherine Rampell, [16:02]

• Polling data reflects that the public largely blamed Republicans and Trump for the shutdown’s effects.
• Some legal background: The Supreme Court (Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson overseeing the relevant circuit) punted on SNAP disbursements, asking lower courts for more robust opinions amidst evolving circumstances.

4. The Economic Mood: Frustration, Political Spin, and Realities

[23:02–27:08]

• Trump’s claims about affordability and the economy are rebutted—his assertions are “not true” as both Al and Catherine note.
• Fox News’ coverage appears inconsistent, sometimes denying inflation exists, sometimes blaming Biden.
• Trump seeks credit for potentially reducing coffee tariffs, despite having been the one to raise them in the first place—the “arsonist as firefighter” analogy.
• Gas prices: Trump claims he can bring gas to $2/gallon, but Catherine reminds listeners that prices were only this low during the COVID-triggered recession, not due to policy genius.
• Trump’s lack of economic understanding is highlighted, especially with tariffs.

Notable Exchange:

“He just doesn’t understand...he doesn’t understand why gas prices were low at various points and whether that’s actually a good thing.”
—Catherine Rampell, [26:54]

5. Housing and Youth Unemployment Challenges

[27:46–31:08]

• First-time home buyers now average 40 years old, with proposals floating for 50-year mortgages—Catherine explains the pitfalls, such as poor equity build-up.
• Unemployment among young adults (20–24) is at 9.2% (excluding college students)—potentially signaling recession-level impacts for some groups, possibly augmented by AI-related job automation and not purely presidential economic policy.

6. Tariffs Debate and Supreme Court Arguments

[32:14–43:50]

• Catherine expands on her Bulwark column about the Supreme Court case over Trump’s tariffs.
• The business impact: Rapid, unpredictable tariff changes cause massive logistical nightmares for importers, e.g., Balsam Hill Christmas trees saw potential tariff bills balloon from $1M to $117M, depending on luck and timing.
• The Supreme Court seems poised (from oral arguments) to rebuke the administration’s sweeping assertion that the President can unilaterally impose tariffs under the International Emergency Powers Act, since tariffs are meant to be a Congressional power.

Notable Quote:

“There’s a thing called the Constitution. It says that Congress has power of the purse. They get to levy taxes. Tariffs are taxes.”
—Catherine Rampell, [40:12]

• If the Supreme Court invalidates these tariffs, not only will businesses no longer have to navigate this chaos, but they may also be rebated billions in improperly collected duties—potentially boosting the broader economy.

7. The Future of AI and Work

[44:04–46:58]

• Al and Catherine trade quips about AI’s possible takeover of creative jobs, including satire and commentary.
• Catherine explains that AI will displace some jobs and create new ones, as with all technological revolutions—but this time, it may hit white-collar and creative industries harder.

Memorable Moment:

“The hope is that what you are doing is uniquely human and...Al Franken could not be replicated by a large language model. But maybe.”
—Catherine Rampell, [45:34]

8. 2028 Politics: Gavin Newsom, Texas, and Primary Positioning

[46:58–47:59]

• Al and Catherine discuss Gavin Newsom’s apparent early positioning for 2028, with campaign-style visits to Texas and Brazil, noting that in American presidential politics, “all these guys have been running since they were about 14.”

Notable Quotes

• Al Franken:
  “If you knew the guy was a pedophile, you probably should have said something...even if the guy was your best friend for 10 years, you really gotta say something.” [02:01]

• Catherine Rampell:
  “This administration worked really, really hard to ensure maximum suffering, to ensure people stayed hungry.” [12:14]
  “There’s a thing called the Constitution. It says that Congress has power of the purse. They get to levy taxes. Tariffs are taxes.” [40:12]
  “The hope is that what you are doing is uniquely human and could not be...replicated by a large language model. But maybe.” [45:34]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Epstein Files and Congressional Standoff — [00:45–05:27]
• Catherine Rampell Career Update — [05:27–06:33]
• Shutdown Politics and SNAP Hostage Tactics — [06:42–19:39]
• Trump’s Economic Narratives vs. Reality — [23:02–27:08]
• Housing and Youth Unemployment — [27:46–31:08]
• Supreme Court, Tariffs, and Business Impact — [32:14–43:50]
• AI and the Future of Work — [44:04–46:58]
• 2028 Presidential Politics — [46:58–47:59]

Tone & Style

Playful and acerbic, with Al and Catherine blending policy wonkery and biting humor. The conversation is rigorous, but conversational and accessible—even the arcane gets a punchline.

Takeaway

The episode provides a multifaceted look at public policy at a fraught moment—exploring not just the process, but the values and rhetorical wars at stake. It's a rich, engaging discussion for anyone seeking to understand how political brinkmanship over the shutdown—and the larger tariff battles—affect everyday Americans, and how current legal and technological transformations are shaping the future of the country.