Dahlia Lithwick on the Courts vs. Trump - The Al Franken Podcast

Summary

The Al Franken Podcast: Dahlia Lithwick on the Courts vs. Trump

Release Date: May 11, 2025
Guest: Dahlia Lithwick, Legal Analyst and Author

1. Introduction and Personal Tributes

The episode begins with Al Franken sharing a heartfelt tribute to his mother-in-law, Fran, who recently turned 102. Franken narrates Fran's inspiring life story, highlighting her resilience as a widow raising five children in Maine after her husband's tragic death. This personal introduction sets a warm and relatable tone for the episode. At [01:29], Franken reflects:

“They tell you to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, but first you have to have the boots and Social Security survivor benefits and scholarships and GI loans and Social Security made it all possible.”

2. The Current Legal Battle Against Trump

Transitioning from the personal tale, Franken introduces Dahlia Lithwick to discuss the ongoing legal challenges facing former President Donald Trump. At [07:00], Dahlia Lithwick re-enters the conversation:

“Well Daya, it's great to have you back. This has been. It's been too long.”

Franken emphasizes the gravity of the situation, stating at [08:04]:

“There are 200 different courts that have acted against Trump in the first hundred-plus days. I mean, he's losing across the boards.”

3. Birthright Citizenship and Constitutional Clarity

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Trump's attempts to redefine birthright citizenship, a topic fraught with legal complexities. Lithwick poses a critical question at [09:15]:

“Well, let's go right to the birthright citizenship, because I'm a little confused on this.”

Franken responds by underscoring the unambiguous language of the 14th Amendment:

“All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.”

He further criticizes Trump's arguments, highlighting their lack of constitutional basis:

“They're arguing this is the most charitable take I can offer... it makes no sense on its face.”

4. Legal Firm Responses and Collective Action

The conversation shifts to the role of prominent law firms in resisting Trump's legal maneuvers. At [15:00], Lithwick inquires about the law firms' stance:

“So are they feeling silly now? Are they feeling stupid because of all the firms that have held out and look like they did the smart thing, or is that not how they see it?”

Franken explains the dynamics, emphasizing the collective resistance and legal victories:

“Perkins Coie was the first to say they wouldn't take a deal. And they were the first to win in court last week...”

He highlights the generational shift within the legal community, noting young lawyers' reluctance to engage in pro bono work under duress.

5. Executive Overreach and Judicial Resistance

A critical discussion point is the Trump administration's blatant disregard for judicial orders, particularly in deportation cases. At [21:20], Franken remarks:

“This is textbook constitutional crisis when you're flouting a judicial order.”

Lithwick adds context by referencing specific cases and judicial responses, reinforcing the administration’s pattern of defiance.

6. Consequences and the Shadow Docket

The duo delves into the implications of the Supreme Court's expedited decisions, often issued without thorough deliberation. At [32:12], Franken observes:

“But if, as we said at the Beginning, there are 200 cases that have ruled against Donald Trump, at some point some court has to be the court of last resort.”

He critiques the Supreme Court's handling of cases through the shadow docket, highlighting procedural anomalies such as issuing orders before dissenting opinions are filed.

7. Fetal Personhood and Future Legal Challenges

The conversation takes a concerning turn towards the concept of fetal personhood and its potential legal ramifications. Lithwick expresses alarm at the implications for women's rights and healthcare:

“That's the moment we're in. And you're exactly right...it's incredibly chilling.”

Franken elaborates on the dangers, citing real-world examples and the possibility of criminalizing miscarriages and other medical procedures.

8. Institutional Resistance and the Path Forward

In the final segments, Franken and Lithwick discuss the broader resistance from institutions like Harvard Law School and the importance of collective action. At [45:01], Franken advises:

“Don't think about this as, like, Harvard stands alone... we have to start to organize as though this is a team sport and not a solo sport.”

He emphasizes solidarity among professionals to counteract the administration's overreach, concluding with a note on the unyielding nature of authoritarian tactics.

Notable Quotes:

Al Franken at [01:29]:
“They tell you to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, but first you have to have the boots and Social Security survivor benefits and scholarships and GI loans and Social Security made it all possible.”
Al Franken at [08:04]:
“There are 200 different courts that have acted against Trump in the first hundred-plus days. I mean, he's losing across the boards.”
Dahlia Lithwick at [09:15]:
“Well, let's go right to the birthright citizenship, because I'm a little confused on this.”
Al Franken at [15:00]:
“Perkins Coie was the first to say they wouldn't take a deal. And they were the first to win in court last week...”
Al Franken at [21:20]:
“This is textbook constitutional crisis when you're flouting a judicial order.”
Al Franken at [32:12]:
“But if, as we said at the Beginning, there are 200 cases that have ruled against Donald Trump, at some point some court has to be the court of last resort.”
Al Franken at [45:01]:
“Don't think about this as, like, Harvard stands alone... we have to start to organize as though this is a team sport and not a solo sport.”

Conclusion

In this episode, Al Franken and Dahlia Lithwick provide a comprehensive analysis of the escalating legal battles between the Trump administration and the judiciary. They explore the intricate challenges to constitutional protections, the resilience of legal institutions, and the critical need for collective action to uphold the rule of law. Through insightful dialogue and sharp critiques, the episode underscores the profound implications of executive overreach and the vital role of the courts in preserving democratic principles.

This summary captures the essence of the podcast episode, focusing on the substantive discussions between Al Franken and Dahlia Lithwick while omitting advertisements and non-content segments.

Transcript

Thumbtack Advertiser (0:00)

Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download thumbtack today.

Audible Advertiser (0:25)

Craving your next action packed adventure? Audible delivers thrills of every kind on your command. Like Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir, where a lone astronaut must save humanity from extinction. Narrated with stunning intensity by Ray Porter. From electrifying suspense and daring quests to spine tingling horror and romance and far off realms, unleash your adventure aside with gripping titles that'll keep you guessing. Discover exclusive Audible originals, hotly anticipated new releases and must listen best sellers that hook you from the first minute. Because Audible knows there's no greater thrill than the one that speaks to you. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat. Start your free 30 day trial at audible.com wonderyus that's audible.com wondery us.

Al Franken (1:19)

Hey everybody, we got a great one today. You know, for a change, the great.

Dahlia Lithwick (1:23)

Dahlia Lithwick is with us to go through the business before the Supreme Court.

Al Franken (1:29)

Now, if you're listening to this podcast, on the day it comes out, it's Mother's Day. And for Mother's Day, we're going up to Portland, Maine to pay tribute to the matriarch of our family, my wife, Frannie's mom, Fran. Franny's a junior and Fran has turned 102 this week. Now some of you have heard Fran's story. Franny was her fourth child. Phyllis, born a little over a year later, was her fifth. Three months later, Fran's husband died in a one car crash. Don Bryson fell asleep at the wheel after doing two shifts at the paper mill and hit a tree. So Fran became a widow with five kids, ages 7, 5, 3, 1 and 3 months. That's Kathy, Carla, Neil, Franny and Phyllis. As you can imagine, it was tough. Fran was a young mom with five kids, so she didn't have a job outside the home. They made it through Social Security, survivor benefits. Sometimes they didn't have enough to eat in the winter. This is Maine. They sometimes ran out of heating oil. When Phyllis was 3, she could go to Catholic nursery school. So Fran got a job at the produce department of the supermarket in the shopping center down the street. So now they had all the fruits and vegetables that they needed. Frannie got a job babysitting when she was 10. I think all the kids worked. When Phyllis went off to first grade, Fran took out a GI loan to go to college. She got four loans, graduated, and became a teacher in a Title 1 elementary school. A Title 1 school is a school that receives government funding to support its population of students in lower income families. All four girls ended up graduating from college on full scholarships. Kathy became a teacher. Carla worked for the phone company. Franny married me and worked in the engineering department of a post production facility. Neil went in the Coast Guard and retired just last year. And Phyllis became a lab technician and Fran retired with a teacher's pension and Social Security. Now they tell you to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, but first you have to have the boots and Social Security survivor benefits and scholarships and GI loans and Social Security made it all possible. So Frannie and I are headed up to Portland to celebrate Mother's day and Fran's 102nd birthday. She can still walk, she's quite deaf and her eyesight ain't so great, but she's all there. So much so that she was just asking me what's going on with the Supreme Court. We've got a great one today, you know, for a change. Dahlia Lithwick is with us, Phil and Fran and all of you on the Supreme Court.