George Packer on Vice President JD Vance

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Al Franken Podcast – George Packer on Vice President JD Vance

Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Al Franken Podcast, host Al Franken welcomes esteemed journalist George Packer from The Atlantic to discuss his insightful article, "The Talented Mr. Vance." Released on June 1, 2025, the episode delves deep into the political transformation of J.D. Vance, exploring his journey from a non-Trump supporter to becoming Donald Trump's Vice President. The conversation examines whether Vance's shift was a genuine reevaluation of his political beliefs or a strategic move driven by ambition.

Background on JD Vance

George Packer begins by providing a comprehensive background on JD Vance, highlighting his multifaceted career as a bestselling author, former US Senator, and now Vice President. Packer emphasizes Vance's complexity, noting, “He’s an interesting and complex and troubling figure” (04:10).

Vance’s Early Life and Career

Packer traces Vance’s early years in Middletown, Ohio—a declining steel town representative of the deindustrialized heartland. Vance’s military service in the Marines, specifically his role in public affairs during the Iraq War, left him disillusioned. Packer mentions, “He emerges from that very cynical about the war” (08:24). This experience shaped Vance’s initial worldview, fostering bitterness towards what he perceived as futile military engagements.

Hillbilly Elegy and Rising Prominence

In 2016, Vance publishes Hillbilly Elegy, a book that becomes a cultural phenomenon following Trump's election. The narrative positions Vance as an authentic voice for the white working class, bridging the gap between his personal struggles and the broader socio-economic challenges faced by his community. Packer notes, “It takes about four years... to get from being an introspective, eloquent explainer... to a culture warrior” (07:15).

Shift Towards MAGA Ideology

The heart of Packer’s analysis explores Vance’s ideological shift towards embracing MAGA principles. Initially critical of Trump, Vance gradually adopts more extreme stances, advocating for “America First” policies and isolationism. Packer questions, “Did Vance get there by genuinely changing his assessment of Trump, or was it something more cynical?” (00:36). Through strategic rhetoric, Vance begins to demonize various groups, aligning himself closely with Trump’s agenda.

Factors Influencing Vance’s Transformation

Packer identifies several factors contributing to Vance’s transformation:

1. Political Ambition: Vance’s desire for political success may have driven him to adopt more populist and confrontational rhetoric.
2. Disillusionment with Elites: Packer suggests a growing resentment towards elite institutions and individuals who, in Vance’s view, neglect the working class.
3. Influence of Think Tanks: Interaction with figures like Peter Thiel introduced Vance to more radical economic and political ideas, fostering his shift towards the far right.

Packer elaborates, “He has this sense... that who are the kind of people who care about Ukraine? Oh, they’re do-gooders... that has led him to take his disillusionment with Iraq and turn it into America first” (11:07).

Vance’s Foreign Policy Stance

A significant point of discussion is Vance’s stance on foreign policy, particularly his disregard for Ukraine. Packer highlights Vance’s controversial statement, “I don’t care what happens in Ukraine,” made during an appearance on Tucker Carlson’s show (11:11). This position starkly contrasts with other veterans who remained committed to democratic ideals abroad, showcasing Vance's unique divergence from his peers.

Impact on American Politics

The conversation shifts to the broader implications of Vance’s rise within American politics. Packer argues that Vance embodies a deep-seated class division exacerbated by educational and socio-economic disparities. He states, “He represents the whole country” but simultaneously, “he’s been this very divisive figure” (20:30). Vance’s ability to resonate with disillusioned working-class voters poses a significant challenge for both the Republican and Democratic parties.

Democrats’ Dilemma

Towards the end of the episode, Packer and Franken discuss the strategic challenges facing Democrats. Packer poses a critical question: “Is it by aligning yourself with a tribe and going to war for it?” (32:00). This introspection highlights the need for Democrats to reconsider their approach to voter engagement in an era dominated by tribalism and media fragmentation.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Packer emphasizing the complexity of JD Vance’s political transformation. He asserts, “It’s a little more complicated than just he was a cynic” (31:02), underscoring the multifaceted motivations behind Vance’s alignment with MAGA. The discussion leaves listeners contemplating the intricate interplay between personal ambition, ideological shifts, and the evolving landscape of American politics.

Notable Quotes:

• Peter Ogburn: “He’s an interesting and complex and troubling figure.” (04:10)
• George Packer: “He emerges from that very cynical about the war.” (08:24)
• Peter Ogburn: “He’s both, he’s the whole, in some ways, he represents the whole country.” (20:30)
• Peter Ogburn: “Is it by aligning yourself with a tribe and going to war for it?” (32:00)
• George Packer: “It’s a little more complicated than just he was a cynic.” (31:02)

Final Thoughts

This episode of The Al Franken Podcast offers a nuanced exploration of JD Vance’s political evolution through George Packer’s incisive analysis. By dissecting Vance’s background, motivations, and ideological shifts, the conversation provides listeners with a deeper understanding of the forces shaping contemporary American politics.

Transcript

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[Al Franken]

Hey, everybody. We got a great one today. You know, for a change, we welcome back the great George Packer of the Atlantic on the evolution of J.D. vance from a never Trumper to Trump's Vice president. Did Vance get there by genuinely changing his assessment of Trump, or was was it something more cynical? Well, today, how the talented Mr. Vance went from thinking that Trump was cultural heroine to believing he's our planet's savior. When Trump announced that Vance was his VP pick, I immediately went, oh, no, this guy seems like a bad guy. I knew he was against supporting Ukraine, and I quickly learned that he'd really gone from anti Maga over to the dark side with his ultra Maga beliefs. Since taking office, Vance has had a handful of highlights. Take his visit to Greenland, for example. I guess Trump sent him there to scout out America's next territory while he spent three hours there touring a military base. The thing is, Greenland just didn't want him there. And we can't forget his visit with Pope Francis, who was a great man. Vance told the Pope, I pray for you every day. And the next day, the Pope died. Just this week, Vance spoke at the bitcoin conference in Vegas. He said crypto finally has a champion in the White House. Yeah, no kidding. The entire Trump family is hauling in a fortune from their corrupt crypto schemes. So we have George Packer on to talk about J.D. vance. It was actually Peter's idea to have George on this week. Isn't that right, Peter? Yep. Yep. You see, this episode gives a lot of background. Great background on Vance that I think will help my listeners know who this guy really is. You know, the next time you see his name alongside some. Some awful headline, that. That's exactly what I was going for this week, Al. And it could make a great best of episode. Maybe if. I mean, you know, dad, don't. Don't go there. Well, if, you know, Vance becomes president. Stop it. No, come on, Peter. We'll have to run this episode again. If that happens, Al, if that happens, we're gonna have bigger problems to worry about. This guy freaks me out.

[George Packer]

Oh, you're right.

[Al Franken]

Well, let's get back to the episode, Al. Okay. Well, everybody.

[Peter Ogburn]

Sure.

[Al Franken]

George Packer on Vice President J.D.

[George Packer]

Vance.

[Al Franken]

It's a great one.

[George Packer]

You know, for a change, the talented Mr. Vance is your piece. This is in the magazine, right?

[Peter Ogburn]

It's in the print, Atlantic, as well as online. Yeah.

[George Packer]

It's called the talented Mr. Vance. So if you looking for it and you don't see it right away online, just search for it and boom, you'll get it. And it's a great piece. This is a complex guy, or maybe he's a very simple guy, which. Who just lies a lot.

[Peter Ogburn]

That's a good way to put the core question about.

[George Packer]

Right. The core question is, you know, either he genuinely realized Trump was helping the working class or sort of cynically betrayed his own values for political ambition or something between those.

[Peter Ogburn]

A combination of those. I don't like to oversimplify people, even people in public life and politics, because I just find it boring. And so I was drawn to Vance and wrote about Vance because I think he's interesting and complex and troubling. I don't think he's purely a creature of cynicism. But on the other hand, I don't buy the. I had a policy epiphany on the road to Damascus and realized that tariffs and lower immigration levels were the way to go.

[George Packer]

And that Donald Trump wasn't America's Hitler.

[Peter Ogburn]

And that Donald Trump was not Cultural Heroin or America's Hitler.

[George Packer]

Right, right. Did he publicly say that?

[Peter Ogburn]

Yeah. Cultural Heroin was in an Atlantic article, of all places, in the summer of 2016, America's Hitler was in a private email that got released by the recipient. But Cultural Heroine is strong and shows his talent with language. He's a good writer.

[George Packer]

He's a very talented guy, obviously. Yeah. Hillbilly Elegy was number one, beautifully written, number one New York Times bestseller.

[Peter Ogburn]

Yeah.

[George Packer]

And so he's a very talented guy, and he continues to use that talent, but he's changed.

[Peter Ogburn]

He's changed. So it's a long story, a long arc. But the key moment comes in 2016 when two things happen. Vance publishes Hillbilly Elegy, and these two things happen simultaneously. It does. Well, it becomes a very widely read and highly praised book. But it becomes a sensation after election night because suddenly, America needs an explainer, a native informant to tell us, who are these people who just elected Donald Trump? Well, J.D. vance seems to come from the world of many of them.

[George Packer]

He comes from Middletown, Ohio, which was a steel town, which is failing as he's growing up.

[Peter Ogburn]

Exactly. It's got all the problems of the deindustrialized heartland, in this case, white heartland, but it's the heartland. It's the working class, and that's Vance's people. But at the same time that he becomes a national spokesman, Donald Trump becomes president. And that's a problem for Vance because Vance has called Donald Trump cultural heroine. And if you are a Republican as he is and want a career in politics, as he did, you have a real problem. You've dug a bit of a hole for yourself.

[George Packer]

So this poses our problem, which is, is he real or is he not real?

[Peter Ogburn]

Yeah. Because it takes about four years, Al, for Vance to go from the introspective, eloquent, sensitive explainer of his own life, his own people, and of more and more of the working classes as people want to hear from him about the white working class that just elected Trump. It takes four years to get from there to the guy who starts talking about childless cat ladies and then begins making up stories about Haitian immigrants eating pets and just becoming this aggressive, taunting culture warrior who seems to be peddling the same cultural heroine that he said Trump was peddling. And so what happened? That's the. That's our challenge. That's our question. What happened?

[George Packer]

Well, you kind of review his life in this, and it's pretty interesting. He, after high school, he went into the military. He enlisted in the Marines.

[Peter Ogburn]

Yep.

[George Packer]

And he goes through Iraq, but he doesn't fight there. He's a. He's a public information guy.

[Peter Ogburn]

He's a public affairs.

[George Packer]

Public affairs.

[Peter Ogburn]

Yeah, that's right.

[George Packer]

So he doesn't see any action, but he's emerges from that very cynical about the war.

[Peter Ogburn]

That's what he says. Later, even on his way in, he heard from guys leaving that it was futile, that we would go in and take a town and then leave, and the insurgents would come right back. So the classic Sisyphean counterinsurgency effort, that wasn't working.

[George Packer]

This is a war we should not have been in. I mean, this was under false pretenses. We went in. There's no doubt that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction was what Cheney said.

[Peter Ogburn]

It's a question. What did J.D. vance think about all that? And the bit of evidence I got was that he didn't question the war when he went. He was a Bush Cheney supporter and a believer that we were spreading democracy and good things to the Middle East. And he came home disillusioned and bitter and feeling as if those Marines he knew who had been injured or died had been in A lost cause in a unnecessary cause. So the experience of a lot of veterans of that war, you and I both talked to a lot of them.

[George Packer]

Yep.

[Peter Ogburn]

Did it necessarily mean he would end up putting a finger in the face of the heroic president of Ukraine and saying, you've never said thank you? And did it mean he would say, I, I don't care what happens to Ukraine one way or the other? That seemed like a endpoint that didn't have to happen because there are plenty of other Iraq vets who got into politics disillusioned by the war, but not utterly nihilistic about the fate of democracy abroad. Seth Moulton, Jason Crow, Tammy Duckworth, and even some Republicans. Dan Crenshaw. So I think Vance, it was part of that trajectory we were just talking about that landed in the Tucker Carlson camp that led him to take his disillusionment with Iraq and turn it into America first. Hardcore. We have no friends. We have no allies. We're in it for ourselves.

[George Packer]

At one point he says, I don't care what happens in Ukraine.

[Peter Ogburn]

Yeah, yeah, he said that to Tucker Carlson. And I'm sure Tucker Carlson was happy.

[George Packer]

To hear it, but I don't understand that at all. I mean, Russia invaded Ukraine. Isn't that a whole different story than what we're talking about?

[Peter Ogburn]

You would think he also, Vance also stood up in the Senate when he became senator from Ohio and gave a long speech about why we should cut off all aid to Ukraine at the key moment when aid was on the table. So he played a decisive role in trying to end American aid. He did not succeed at that point, but he seems to be doing a pretty good job right now of putting that imprint on Trump's policy. Why did he say, I don't care about Ukraine? I have this sense, and I can't prove this, but I have this sense that who are the kind of people who care about Ukraine? Oh, they're do gooders. They're humanitarians. They tend to be more liberal. They didn't fight in Iraq. They sent other people to fight in Iraq. That's the mentality I'm imagining of America first in the mind of this Iraq vet turned MAGA culture warrior. And Ukraine and Zelensky become like childless cat ladies or parents who trans their kids or Haitian pet eating Haitian immigrants. They become or, God forbid, you know, the worst of all the media, the mainstream media. They, Zelensky and Ukraine have joined the enemies of MAGA. And Donald Trump Jr. Uses absolutely vile language to describe Zelensky. I think he called him a tutu wearing con man, scam artist, you know.

[George Packer]

Is the uniform he wears.

[Peter Ogburn]

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, there's a kind of animus or hatred that goes way beyond. This is not in America's national interest. It seems more visceral and it feels to me like it comes out of the same place as all the other culture war hatreds which Vance has embraced.

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[George Packer]

Let's go. Because your piece goes through his life and I find it very interesting. And each step is an interesting way to look at his evolution. After Iraq, he goes to Ohio State. He graduates in two years. So he gets his degree in two years. There's no question this is a very.

[Peter Ogburn]

Very smart man and hard working and.

[George Packer]

At that point, intellectually curious, too.

[Peter Ogburn]

He's intellectually curious. He's reading all kinds of political philosophy and theology and he's on a mission. He has a escape velocity that's very high because he has gotten out of Middletown, Ohio. He's gotten away from his very troubled and abusive mother. He's escaped the fate of working at the corner store for the rest of his life because he is so smart and so ambitious. And so he writes in hillbilly elegy. He felt this incredible optimism, this surge of hope because he had gotten out.

[George Packer]

I kind of laugh at the moment in his acceptance speech where he says, he points to his mom and says, she's been sober for 10 years. You remember that? And she kind of waves and smiles and I'm thinking, she's thinking, yeah, great. I'm the one who was shooting up Heroin and hillbilly ology. Thanks, honey. It is a weird pointing to me.

[Peter Ogburn]

Well, it's a weird turn because throughout hillbilly elegy and. And then his public appearances when the book came out, she's the. The problem. And even the. The ogre who he had to get away from. Even though he says he loves her, he still cut off communication for a while and. And then when he became a politician, she became the. The feel good story about his mom, which kind of proved his authenticity. He came out of a very hard, even traumatic background. But things are looking good for his family because his mother's sober and. Yeah. Does she want to be. Have the public know her as the former heroin user?

[George Packer]

Well, anyway, anytime anyone has gotten sober, that's a big. That's a feel good story and it's.

[Peter Ogburn]

A great achievement and I just wish it didn't feel quite so instrumental. But what do you want? He's in politics. He's going to use his mother's story, of course.

[George Packer]

Well, he used it in one way and uses another way, but either. Both are legitimate, I guess. Certainly, actually. So he goes to Yale Law School.

[Peter Ogburn]

Yeah.

[George Packer]

And meets Usha.

[Peter Ogburn]

He meets Usha Chilukuri, who is the daughter of Indian immigrants.

[George Packer]

Indian immigrants who are. Where are they? In San Diego.

[Peter Ogburn]

They're in San Diego. They're academics. They're successful people. Her mother, I think, is a dean at UC San Diego, I think. Her father, I think, is a scientist. A lot's expected of her. And she delivers. She goes to Yale College. She gets a degree, a master's at Cambridge, England. She gets into Yale Law School. She is a striver and an upwardly mobile Meritocrat and an unlikely, in some ways, an unlikely match for this guy.

[George Packer]

Here's something from your piece. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I just love this. This is a quote from a law student, a friend at Yale, of dances. I never got the sense that he was worse off because he hadn't gone to Yale or Harvard just because he was so well spoken. That is really what. What he was at Yale.

[Peter Ogburn]

He was many things. And in hillbilly elegy, he makes it clear that he felt out of place. He felt like an alien. He didn't know how to use all the tableware at a fancy high school.

[George Packer]

That's a scene in the book and in the movie.

[Peter Ogburn]

And the movie at this recruitment dinner at a fancy restaurant. And there's these. All these forks and spoons and knives and what are they for? And he has to leave the table and call Usha and she tells him. And it's sort of charming, it's sort of funny to me. It's a little strange. It's a sort of almost sad.

[George Packer]

Well, you know, here's my, you know, my wife would have said to me, why don't you just look at what other people, how they use their silverware and do what they do.

[Peter Ogburn]

Well, you get the feeling that Usha was giving very precise instructions.

[George Packer]

Yes.

[Peter Ogburn]

A lot of, a lot of the time she was, he said, his Yale spirit guide. And what interested me, Al, was that in our country and culture, there's nothing strange about the daughter of Hindu Indian immigrants being the insider who is the guide to Yale. For the son of many centuries of native born white Christian Americans, Vance is much farther away from Yale than Gushachilukuri because we don't have the old WASP aristocracy. We have this multi ethnic meritocracy that is based on your SAT scores and where you went to college and who you know and whether you know how to use the knife and fork and spoon at your table and if you know how to network at a cocktail party and how to ingratiate yourself at a job interview. And she's his guide to all of that because that's her world, not his. And it tells you something about the unbelievable divide in America between the highly educated and the not so educated and how that is the big class division that Trump exploited and that Vance has embodied. He's both, he's the whole, in some ways, he represents the whole country. And that's getting, jumping ahead. I think the lost promise, the potential that he never lived up to, he could have really been a unifying figure. Instead, he's been this very divisive figure.

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[George Packer]

Well, the being the divisive figure was. I mean, as you say, he is the person most likely to be the next president.

[Peter Ogburn]

I think so.

[George Packer]

He may not be the next president, but he's most likely. Most likely to be.

[Peter Ogburn]

I think that's pretty self evident. Yeah.

[George Packer]

Yeah. I mean he's, he's the vice president. So he gets out of Yale and he meets Peter Thiel at Yale.

[Peter Ogburn]

That's right.

[George Packer]

And this is a kind of cynical billionaire.

[Peter Ogburn]

I don't know that I'd call him cynical. I would call him dark. Ominous. Ominous. Billionaire has many big ideas about American decline and the failure of democracy that kind of point toward a more authoritarian system. And he's a brilliant investor, made his money at PayPal, Facebook, Palantir, and becomes a big influence on Vance. He gives a talk at Yale that Vance goes to as a law student, and the talk is about how, while you're here cutting each other's throats to get the best jobs that you will then find meaningless and unfulfilling in corporate law. America is declining in a decadent phase. Technology is stuck, and no one seems to be aware of it. We're just fighting each other for these elite jobs that are dwindling because we're stagnant. All of this speaks very deeply to Vance, because I think at that point, he had also begun to feel, what am I here for? Why am I trying so hard to make it in this world when it doesn't really seem to have a whole lot of value other than just credentials? He continues to make it in that world and to do all the right things. But I think Teal planted a seed of doubt that paid off when Vance got out of law school, did a couple years of law, and then went out to Silicon Valley to work for Thiel. And that established a relationship that was extremely useful to Vance and to Teal for the next 10 years.

[George Packer]

Well, he makes money there, right?

[Peter Ogburn]

He makes some money. I don't. Yeah, I think hillbilly elegy probably accounts for most of his wealth, but he makes money, he makes connections. He goes back to Ohio claiming to be doing it in order to give back and reverse the brain drain, but really doesn't do that much. He doesn't do much for that. What he's gone back for is to enter politics. But there's a problem, and the problem is called Donald Trump, because now Vance has a public record of having been very critical of Trump. And he goes back to Ohio and finds out his family are big Trumpers, his community is big Trumpers. Ohio seems to be all behind Trump. How is he going to enter politics? And this is the really interesting point where you ask yourself, how opportunistic is it? How much is there a genuine change? What's it motivated by? Is it pure political ambition? Or maybe there's something else, too, which is resentment of Those elites who led him into their world, stamped his passport, but also let him know that they kind of despise those working class people he came from. He starts telling stories about dinners with CEOs who say stupid, offensive things about working class people, and maybe that resentment. And his own, why am I here? What have I been doing all this for? Starts to create a backlash within himself against this. The very people who raised him up to kind of be a star of the elite world. And that makes it easier to justify in his own mind, turning to MAGA after calling it cultural heroin.

[George Packer]

And when does he do that exactly? And how does he do that?

[Peter Ogburn]

It takes four years, from 2017 to 2021.

[George Packer]

He gets elected in 22.

[Al Franken]

Right?

[Peter Ogburn]

In 22. But before that, by then, he's jumped in head first.

[Al Franken]

Right.

[Peter Ogburn]

But before that, Al, there's a moment right after Trump gets elected where he's in a classic kind of liberal elite setting, the Institute of Politics, David Axelrod's institute at the University of Chicago, and he's talking about hillbilly elegy. He's giving his thousandth interview about it. And he says, you know, in Trump's rallies, only 5% was offensive, inflammatory stuff. The other 95% was about how. What's wrong with your community and what I'm going to do to fix it. Bring back jobs.

[George Packer]

The offensive stuff was about Mexicans.

[Peter Ogburn]

Mexicans and Muslims and immigrants. Yeah, so. And elites who are an easier target for Vance. So he's already begun to prepare a narrative, which is, it actually isn't that bad. It's only 5%, so who cares? When, in fact, of course, it's a lot more than 5%. I'm sure you've listened to some of Trump's rallies.

[George Packer]

Yep.

[Peter Ogburn]

And not only is it more than 5%, it's 100%. Because even the talk about jobs and making America great is all about making America great without them, because they have made it bad. They are poisoning the body politics. He can't do it without vitriol and demonizing. So there is no distinction between the 5 and the 95, but Vance creates it. And I think it's a very clever way to prepare the ground for saying, actually, Trump's not that bad. And you know what? He's for tariffs. He's against free trade. He wants to close the border and lower immigration and get rid of the illegals. All of that's good for the working class. So I'm actually beginning to think that he's an okay guy. So there's a Policy, intellectual conversion. That starts, there's a rhetorical shift toward Trump. And then in 2021, when he announces he's running for the Senate, there's a total burst of MAGA rhetoric and demonizing, and it goes very far, very fast, so that he's going after all kinds of groups of Americans and non Americans, and he's saying, why should Trump obey the judges and why doesn't he get rid of the entire bureaucracy, et cetera? And it's extremist. It sounds more like Peter Thiel and more like Curtis Yarvin and Tucker Carlson. He's gone to the far right. And that feels to me as if he's liberated himself. He doesn't need to be polite. He doesn't need to smile and nod when someone at the Institute of Politics asks him a stupid question. He can be a full throated, angry son of the working class, and he can claim to be doing it in the name of the working class, even though he's really not doing anything for the working class. And neither is Trump. Trump is doing it for the rich and the grifters. But this is the claim. My people have been mistreated and I've come into politics to settle scores, and here are the enemies. And that I think there's a genuine, authentic liberation for him that's not just cynical and not just opportunistic, but that allows him to at least be part of himself.

[George Packer]

But he's comfortable swimming in that.

[Peter Ogburn]

He is to me. It reminds me of what he describes as hillbilly culture. These are the enemies. Most of most people are the enemies. The only people I trust are the people close to me, people loyal to me. If you challenge my honor, I'm coming right back at you. I'm going to pick a fight with people I don't like. He does that as vice president. He goes on Twitter and uses profanity to go after his critics. So it's, it's as if the repressed culture of his childhood, which he had to get rid of to make it at Yale, he's now, not only is he swimming in it, but he's thriving in it, because that's the culture of maga. It's the culture that allowed him to get on Trump's radar, to be forgiven by Trump for his offenses, and to be named as Trump's vice president. Anyway, that's my armchair analysis of that change in J.D. vance. It's a little more complicated than just he was a cynic.

[George Packer]

And if you want to read the piece, you can go to pick up the magazine at your newsstand or go to the Atlantic online. TheAtlantic.com well, is there anything else you.

[Al Franken]

Want to get into, George?

[Peter Ogburn]

I don't know. How are you doing these days, Al? I mean, how do you absorb the news? How do you think about?

[George Packer]

It's terrible.

[Peter Ogburn]

The Democratic Party and the Republican Party and the future of the country. In 30 seconds, go.

[George Packer]

Okay, well, in 30 seconds, I feel like we have to basically just speak out about Trump and I'm not sure who our leader is going to be in the next election. And I don't think we have to know that right now. We've only had like two magical kind of figures, Clinton and Obama. You don't get them very often, but we've won the election without it. That's Biden in 20. And I think right now we have to just, I think what Biden did really hurt the party. That's more than 30 seconds, I guess.

[Peter Ogburn]

My question is so a parallel to Vance. Vance would claim he changed policy views. He became America Firster and an isolationist and a anti trade, pro tariff guy. Okay, people change policy. But is that what made Vance a hero to maga or is it his willingness to own the libs? And so my question for the Democrats is whether embracing economic populism, moderating social issues that are unpopular, is that the way people win elections these days? Or is it by aligning yourself with a tribe and going to war for it?

[George Packer]

Well, I mean the, what you're people getting response now are AOC and Bernie.

[Peter Ogburn]

Yeah, I guess what I'm getting at is we, you and I may have lived for a long time at an age when politics and policy and coalitions and all those old fashioned things were the way elections got one. And now the, the media is different and politicians are different and Trump seems to have figured out the sweet spot, as hideous as it is, as corrupt as it is.

[George Packer]

What is that sweet spot? When is that sweet spot?

[Peter Ogburn]

It seems to be a kind of continual performance that makes certain people feel okay about the country, even if the facts are otherwise. And his voters, it seemed like in the last election the biggest jump he got in the polls was with voters who were paying no attention. And so do Democrats need to go after voters who are paying no attention? Because Democrats usually kind of like voters who are reading the Atlantic and listening to the Al Franken podcast. So I don't know, it's a mystery.

[George Packer]

Well, thanks. It's a great piece and people get it in the Atlantic.

[Peter Ogburn]

Thank you.

[George Packer]

And get it online.

[Peter Ogburn]

Thanks, Al.

[Al Franken]

Well, I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kotke, the great Leo Kotke. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next week.