Lawyer Liz Oyer on Trump’s Corrupt Pardons

Summary

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The Al Franken Podcast

Episode: Lawyer Liz Oyer on Trump’s Corrupt Pardons
Date: November 23, 2025
Guests: Liz Oyer – former U.S. Pardon Attorney, Justice Department

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Main Theme / Purpose

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Al Franken and Liz Oyer, who served as the Justice Department’s pardon attorney under multiple administrations, including as the first public defender in the role. The discussion centers on the evolution—and perceived corruption—of presidential pardons, with a focus on Donald Trump’s unprecedented use of clemency for political and personal gain during his second term, and the broader implications for American democracy, the justice system, and public trust.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Liz Oyer’s Background and Experience

• Oyer clarifies that her role as pardon attorney was a career, nonpolitical position held into both the Biden and Trump administrations.

  "I was the pardon attorney throughout most of the Biden administration, but also into the Trump administration because I was a career employee." (05:23 – Liz Oyer)

• She was abruptly fired under Trump after refusing to recommend restoring firearm rights to Mel Gibson, who was barred due to a domestic violence conviction.

  "I was unwilling to do it...I declined multiple invitations to change my mind. I was fired." (06:18–07:10 – Liz Oyer)

• After her termination, Oyer testified before Congress, recounting intimidation tactics involving armed U.S. marshals delivering a threatening legal letter before her testimony.

  "At the time...my teenager was home alone. I wasn't home when I got word...They were supposed to arrive there at 10 o’clock at night." (07:41–08:58 – Liz Oyer)

2. Foundations and Purpose of the Presidential Pardon

• The pardon power is an inherited vestige from British monarchy, included in the Constitution mainly at Alexander Hamilton’s urging, originally intended for public good and national unity.

  "Ultimately, largely due to the influence of Alexander Hamilton, it was put in the Constitution despite the fact that it’s really a vestige of monarchy." (09:11–09:38 – Liz Oyer)

3. The Clemency Process: How It (Should) Work

• The Office of the Pardon Attorney performs a rigorous, merit-based vetting for clemency recommendations to the President.

  "There’s an application process…all based on merit, showing that you really deserve the opportunity…that you’ve earned it." (10:53–11:47 – Liz Oyer)

• Under Biden and Obama, commutations focused on correcting excessive drug sentences; Biden’s pardon of his son Hunter caused internal dissent and public trust issues.

  "We were not consulted...We would not have recommended that and...believed that really diminished the pardon power in the eyes of the public." (13:47–14:22 – Liz Oyer)

4. Trump’s First Term: Increasing Politicization

• Pardons often bypassed the traditional vetting process, with political allies (e.g., Paul Manafort, Charles Kushner) directly benefiting.

  "People who leveraged political connections to get pardons…did not go through the ordinary vetting process." (17:37–18:11 – Liz Oyer)

• Nonetheless, some worthy cases were granted due to Kushner and Ivanka’s interest in criminal justice reform.

5. Trump’s Second Term: Systemic Corruption

• The process is now fully “about political connections and money.”

  "There's nobody who is receiving serious consideration...who even comes close to meeting the criteria that have long been used." (18:36–19:00 – Liz Oyer)

• On Day 1, nearly 1,600 January 6th rioters were pardoned without Justice Department input.

  "I got a news alert on my phone, just like the rest of America, announcing these pardons." (19:12–19:25 – Liz Oyer)

Role of Ed Martin (Current Pardon Attorney and “Weaponization Czar”)

• Ed Martin, a MAGA political operative and Stop the Steal proponent, reportedly steers the pardon process directly from the White House.

  "He occupies the role of pardon attorney and...weaponization czar...dispensing pardons to MAGA supporters and...prosecuting enemies of Donald Trump." (21:02–21:57 – Liz Oyer)

• Martin’s motto: “No MAGA left behind.” (22:58, 23:11 – Liz Oyer)

Examples of Notable, Controversial Pardons

• Sheriff Scott Jenkins: Pardoned after selling badges for cash. (23:11–23:20)
• Michelle Fiore: Embezzled police memorial funds, spent on plastic surgery—pardoned before serving time. (24:13–24:17)
• 77 Election Deniers: Pardoned for efforts to overturn the 2020 election, including Mark Meadows, John Eastman, Sidney Powell. Troublingly, many never faced federal charges—formal effectiveness of these pardons is in question, but their symbolic message is dangerous. (24:45–26:43)

  "It’s intended to send a message...they can do what they need to do in the name of Donald Trump, and he will have their back." (25:49–26:33 – Liz Oyer)

Pardons for Cash and Influence

• Paul Walsack: Nursing home exec convicted of tax fraud; mother donated a million dollars for a Mar-a-Lago dinner—he received a full pardon.

  "Wealth is a get out of jail free card in this country." (27:28–28:44 – Liz Oyer)

• Changpeng Zhao (CZ): Binance founder convicted for enabling money laundering for terror groups, then pardoned after brokering a $2b investment in Trump family’s cryptocurrency venture.

  "Probably the most corrupt pardon in American history." (29:52–30:12 – Liz Oyer)
  "He would never have been recommended for a pardon under the Department of Justice’s long standing criteria.” (31:08–32:21 – Liz Oyer)

6. Systemic Consequences & Lack of Accountability

• There’s no meaningful transparency: pardons are not always disclosed or rationalized as in past administrations.

  “Sometimes days have passed...we’re sometimes finding out about pardons after the fact...there may be more...we don’t yet know about.” (33:00–34:35 – Liz Oyer)

• Discusses how Congress could legislate greater disclosure and justification, even absent a constitutional amendment.

7. Other High-Profile/Controversial Cases

• George Santos: Sentence commuted; commutation wiped out prison, financial restitution, and supervision requirements—rare even for corrupt officials. (37:44–40:14)
• Ghislaine Maxwell:
  • Interviewed in prison by Trump’s Deputy AG/Todd Blanche (Trump’s personal lawyer), after firing of prosecutor Maureen Comey (Jim Comey’s daughter).
  • Transferred to minimum-security camp (requires high-level waiver not used previously for sex offenders).
  • Reportedly preparing commutation request as part of quid pro quo for exonerating Trump in the Epstein affair.

  "It is required under DOJ policies that victims are consulted at every step of the way...there’s no sign...that Todd Blanche consulted with the victims." (46:15–47:12 – Liz Oyer)

• Trevor Milton: Nikola founder, convicted of fraud, pardoned after major donations to Trump.

  "He was convicted at trial of defrauding his investors...Trump swooped in before Milton was sent to prison...Milton had donated about $1.8 million to Trump's campaign...and he leveraged that donation into a full pardon." (49:37–51:25 – Liz Oyer)

8. Impact on Deserving Applicants

• 20,000+ applications, many from nonviolent or rehabilitated individuals, are now ignored; the process is "thoroughly corrupted and delegitimized."

  "Now it’s all illegitimate. The whole process has been thoroughly corrupted and delegitimized." (52:02–52:41 – Liz Oyer)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the shift in use of pardons:

  "The thorough pervasiveness of financial and political influence in the pardon process is on a different order of magnitude during Trump's second term." (29:08–29:40 – Liz Oyer)

• On Ed Martin’s philosophy:

  "No MAGA left behind. That’s sort of his tagline." (22:58–23:11 – Liz Oyer)

• On the consequences for rule of law:

  “This is an issue that gets at the integrity of our justice system, our safety in country, the rule of law.” (32:24–32:56 – Liz Oyer)

• On Trump’s use of pardons as leverage:

  “He is keeping a lot of people on the hook by dangling the possibility that he could grant them a pardon…People are offering their political support…He’s amassing power and wealth just by dangling the possibility of pardons.” (48:29–49:12 – Liz Oyer)

• On the lack of outrage and Congressional action:

  “We haven’t seen outrage on both sides of the aisle about how the president is using the pardon power to the detriment of the American people." (32:56–33:00 – Liz Oyer)

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Important Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|--------------------| | 05:23 | Oyer’s background, role as first public defender pardon attorney | | 06:18 | The “Mel Gibson incident” and Oyer’s firing | | 07:41 | DOJ intimidation tactics before congressional testimony | | 09:11 | Origin of the pardon power and Hamilton’s influence | | 10:53 | Typical clemency application process at DOJ | | 13:47 | Biden’s controversial pardon of son Hunter | | 17:43 | Trump’s first-term clemency: political connections | | 18:36 | Current structure: process "all about political connections and money" | | 19:12 | Trump’s Day 1: 1,600 January 6th rioters pardoned | | 21:02 | Ed Martin’s dual roles and philosophy | | 23:11 | “No MAGA left behind” and scandalous MAGA pardons | | 27:01 | Paul Walsack case: pardons for cash, Mar-a-Lago donations | | 29:52 | Changpeng Zhao (CZ): national security, business quid pro quo | | 33:00 | Deficiencies in pardon disclosure and lack of Congressional constraints | | 37:44 | George Santos’s commutation and implications | | 40:35 | Ghislaine Maxwell: special prison treatment, commutation prospects | | 49:37 | Trevor Milton: billionaire fraud, campaign donation for pardon | | 51:49 | Pending applications crisis; contrast to previous presidents |

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Tone and Language

• The conversation is candid, sharply critical, and at times darkly humorous—hallmarks of Al Franken’s political commentary—while Oyer delivers measured, insider detail seasoned by her legal expertise and ethical concerns.
• The episode is equal parts policy analysis, whistleblower testimony, and political satire, but with a serious underlying warning about erosion in American legal norms.

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Closing Note

Liz Oyer closes by encouraging public engagement and education about legal abuses via her newsletter and social media (Substack: Lawyer Oyer; Instagram/TikTok: @lawyeroyer).

"I'm trying to inform the public about these abuses of the pardon power and other legal issues that should really concern all of us as Americans." (52:50–53:07 – Liz Oyer)

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For those seeking a comprehensive, real-time window into the expanding and often corrupt use of executive clemency, this episode delivers a deeply informed and alarm-sounding account of how the pardon process has been transformed—and weaponized—since Trump’s return to office.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host]

Hey everybody, we've got a great one today. You know, for a change, Liz Oyer, who was the pardon attorney during the Biden administration, joins us to talk about the pardons that Trump has been giving out. But not for free necessarily. Turns out that he's departed from the practice that presidents have been using since George Washington. Pardon those who fought in the Whiskey Rebellion. Trump's been giving them to his supporters and has been profiting from them. But first, news of the week. Earlier this week, the Coast Guard said it would no longer classify the swastika as hate speech, but it reversed itself. But why the Coast Guard is classifying hate speech? Well, evidently if a ship is within three miles of our coast and is flying a flag with a swastika or a noose, the Coast Guard can fire on it. The Coast Guard is also in charge of defining what is or isn't pornography. Okay, the real news, President Trump hosted Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman at the White House this past week, first at a press conference in the Oval Office. MBS is of course, a brutal dictator, but he does a lot of business with the Trump Organization, which has been developing a bunch of extremely lucrative projects in his country. And in exchange, Trump is selling the Saudis F35 jets and providing them access to the most advanced AI chips. Things at the press conference turned testy when an ABC reporter asked about the murder. Washington Post reporter Jamal Khashoggi, who in 2018 was strangled at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul by Saudi agents and then dismembered with a bone saw. The last few minutes of Khashoggi's life were recorded on the consulate's audio tape and transcribed. But his body was disposed of and never found. US Intelligence concluded that MBS had ordered the murder so when the reporter asked about it, Trump got very angry at her and lied, saying that the US had concluded that MBS had nothing to do with the murder. And then went on to say this about Khashoggi. A lot of people didn't like that gentleman that you're talking about. Trump said that and went on, whether you like him or didn't like him, things happen. Things, things happen. That evening, the President threw a state dinner for MBS at the White House. Don Jr. And Eric weren't there. That would have been bad optics. And Elon Musk was there, but he didn't bring his chainsaw. And of course, the House and Senate voted to release the Epstein files unanimously, except for a single vote in the House. And the President signed it after reversing his long held stance against releasing the files because according to Attorney General Pam Bondi, there was nothing there. But the files can't be released if there's a standing investigation which could be compromised. And the Attorney General announced that she was starting investigations of Bill Clinton, Lawrence Summers and Democratic mega donor Reid Hoffman. So those will go on for months and maybe longer, giving the Justice Department the time to redact Trump's name wherever it appears. Will that work? Will Mondi and Trump get away with it? I don't think so. After all, Congress voted 4271 to open the files. Well, at least we have a great one today, you know, for a change. Lawyer Liz Oyer joins us to discuss the Trump partners.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Liz, thanks for joining me. You, you got to be President Biden's pardon attorney?

[Liz Oyer]

Well, I didn't work for the President. My office was actually non political, So I was the pardon attorney throughout most of the Biden administration, but also into the Trump administration because I was a career employee of Justice Department. Of course, in the Justice Department, all career staff, no politicals in the office of the pardon attorney.

[Podcast Host]

And you were the first public defender to be the pardon attorney.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

And the current pardon attorney is Ed Martin. He's not a public defender.

[Liz Oyer]

He's not?

[Podcast Host]

No.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, yeah. Yep. He is the first person that I'm aware of who's not a career employee to hold that position. He is a political operative, you probably know.

[Sponsor Voice (One Skin)]

Yes.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

You say you were also in the Trump administration, but not for long.

[Liz Oyer]

Not for long. That's exactly right.

[Podcast Host]

What happened?

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

How did. This is the Mel Gibson thing.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, this is the Mel Gibson thing. I was fired very abruptly in March after I made clear that I was not going to recommend that the Attorney General reinstate Mel Gibson's right to purchase a firearm. He had a conviction for domestic violence that prohibited him under federal law from purchasing a gun. He tried to buy a gun, he was denied. And so he asked the Attorney General to use her statutory authority to reinstate his gun ownership rights. And instead of just doing that, her staff asked me to recommend that she do that, which was intended to give it a veneer of legitimacy. And I was unwilling to do it because of the serious dangers of people with domestic violence history owning guns. And very shortly after, I declined multiple invitations to change my mind. I was fired.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Did they end up giving him the right to own a gun?

[Liz Oyer]

Yes, after I was fired, they did it anyway.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

And a few months later, you testified in front of Congress.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, that's right. About a month later, I testified in front of what was called a bicameral spotlight hearing. So it was just Democrats from both the House and Senate Judiciary Committee.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

And you testified that they sent U.S. marshals to your house?

[Liz Oyer]

Yes, they did.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

When they knew you were testifying?

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, the Friday night before I was scheduled to testify. The hearing was scheduled for Monday. The Friday night before, I was at a performance at the Kennedy center with my parents and my husband when a DOJ employee, out of the goodness of their heart, contacted me around 9 o' clock at night to give me a heads up that there were armed special deputy U.S. marshals on their way to my home to deliver me a letter.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

And what did the letter say?

[Liz Oyer]

The letter was a warning about testifying. It warned me of all of the legal risks that I would face by testifying before members of Congress.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Boy, that's creepy. Did Bondi ever apologize for that?

[Liz Oyer]

No, nobody ever apologized for anything. But I'm not, I'm not in need of an apology. You know, that was obviously very upsetting for me and my family because at the time, I have a teenager, my teenager was home alone. I wasn't home when I got word that these folks were on their way to my house. They were supposed to arrive there at 10 o' clock at night. And this person inside the Justice Department was able to help me get those folks called off. When I shared that, I was really concerned about, you know, how upsetting it was going to be to my child to see these people show up at the door.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Oh, well, that's nice.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. How did the pardon get in in the Constitution Now, Hamilton advocated for the President to have the pardon in the Ferrell's papers.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Right?

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah. The pardon power was, was hotly debated among the the founders and ultimately, largely due to the influence of Alexander Hamilton. It was put in the Constitution despite the fact that it's really a vestige of monarchy. The pardon power was historically a British kings. Yeah, yeah. So some of the founders were skeptical of whether there was any place for that in our constitutional democracy, but they.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Vested it in the. In the president. Well, it was first used by George Washington first for the Whiskey Rebellion or something.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, it had been used. It's been used throughout history by presidents sort of trying to, I think, move past historical events for the purpose of trying to bring unity to our country at different. Different times, different presidents have used it with that goal. I think the founders of the Constitution just assumed the President was always going to use it for the public good or for what the President viewed as the public good. But that hasn't been how it has played the current president, unfortunately. I mean, candidly, there have been times throughout history when different presidents have granted pardons that have been ill advised and have not been well received by the public and have been rightly criticized. But for the most part, most presidents have tried to use the pardon power in a way that serves the public good.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Okay, well, so back to your job. What was the process under Biden anyway? And I assume under pretty much every president before him. But what was the process? How does it work? Someone applies for a pardon, right?

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah. The Office of the Pardon Attorney has existed in some form within the justice department for over 100 years. And the role of the office is to make recommendations to the President about who is deserving of clemency. Thousands of people, you know, even sometimes upward of 10,000 people per year, apply for this form of relief through the Justice Department. And they have. There's an application process in place that is really quite rigorous. To get a recommendation in support of clemency from the Office of the Pardon Attorney, you have to cross a number of hurdles that are all based on merit, showing that you really deserve the opportunity to be considered for that extraordinary form of relief by the President and that you've earned it. And that if you are granted clemency, you will not go back out there and embarrass the President or endanger your fellow citizens by committing future crimes.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

So who speaks to these people who are applying? I mean, most of them are in prison.

[Podcast Host]

Are they?

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Or some formally in prison.

[Liz Oyer]

About 80% of people who apply are incarcerated, people who are seeking commutations of sentence, meaning a reduction of their prison sentence. About 20% are people who are out in the community who have rehabilitated themselves or are trying to demonstrate that They've rehabilitated themselves and are seeking a presidential pardon. A full pardon confers forgiveness, essentially from the president, and it's different from a commutation, which just reduces the prison portion of the sentence.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

I see. Did Biden grant more acts of clemency than. Than any other president?

[Liz Oyer]

He did. He granted a whole lot of commutations of sentence at the end of his administration. That added up to quite a large number. He actually granted very few pardons compared to some other presidents. He only granted 80 pardons, but he granted quite a lot of commutations of sentence.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Okay. And a lot of these were drug. Like marijuana, or what were they?

[Liz Oyer]

The majority were for drug offenses. Starting under President Obama, there was a lot of interest in using the clemency power to correct some of the excessive sentences that were imposed in the War on drugs era. President Obama granted almost 2,000 commutations of sentence to people who had been sentenced under outdated mandatory minimum laws or received sentencing enhancements for nonviolent drug offenses. And President Biden attempted to continue that tradition and to use commutations to reduce outdated and overly lengthy sentences for nonviolent drug offenses.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

And, of course, he pardoned son Hunter.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, he did.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

And other members of the family at the end. I'm assuming that you weren't consulted on that. That was. I mean, Hunter was looking at time, right?

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, that. That, al. I mean, really, frankly, was very disheartening to me and to my colleagues who were not consulted about that, who would not have recommended that and who believed that that really diminished the pardon power in the eyes of the public. I think that it, unfortunately, laid the groundwork for abuses of the pardon power on a much larger scale by Donald Trump in a way that is much more corrupt. So, yeah, that was a very. That was a low point for the use of the pardon power was President Biden's pardon of his son Hunter.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

On the other hand, I understand, you know, it's your son and your only surviving son.

[Liz Oyer]

Well, one of the things that folks were critical of, including myself at the time, was the way that was messaged was sort of, you know, my son has been treated unfairly by the criminal justice system. My background coming into the role of pardoned attorney was as a federal public defender. So I did that job for 10 years before I joined the Justice Department. And I have seen how harsh the criminal justice system can be in many cases. It felt, unfortunately, like President Biden was not able to see that aspect of the justice system until it hit very close to home with his son. Hunter. But, you know, lots of other people have sons who are being treated in ways that seem unfair to them by the criminal justice system. And I think a lot of Americans viewed the selection of the president's son to receive a pardon as, you know, favoritism, nepotism, that sort of thing.

[Podcast Host]

We're going to take a quick break.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

We'll be right back with Liz Oyer.

[Podcast Host]

Hey, everybody.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

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[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

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[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

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[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

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[Liz Oyer]

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[Podcast Host]

And we are back with Liz Oyer.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Let's move on back to Trump. First term. He didn't grant that much clemency, right?

[Liz Oyer]

He granted, he granted enough clemency. Was a mixed bag under Trump. One, there were a lot of people who were politically connected with the president who received pardons. People like Manafort. Paul Manafort. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

And Jared Kushner's father.

[Liz Oyer]

And, yes, there were people who leveraged political connections to get pardons, and those did not go through the ordinary vetting process.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Right.

[Liz Oyer]

But there were some deserving people who received pardons under Trump's first administration as well. I think that was largely the influence of Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump, who have been known in some circles as supporters of criminal justice reform and were trying to ensure that some folks who didn't have political connections were also considered for class clemency.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

This is in contrast, maybe to this.

[Liz Oyer]

Term, in very stark contrast to the current term. Under the current Trump presidency, it's really all about political connections and money. Who is being considered for pardons? There's nobody who is receiving serious consideration for clemency who even comes close to meeting the criteria that have long been used by the Justice Department for recommending clemency to the president.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Well, the first day, he, of course, pardoned 1600, or close to 1600 of the rioters or the people came into the Capitol. I'm guessing you weren't consulted on that.

[Liz Oyer]

No, you know, it was the first. It was. It was the first day of Trump's presidency, and I got a news alert on my phone, just like the rest of America, announcing that these pardons had come down. It really came as quite a shock.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Were you part of the administration then, or had you already been hired?

[Liz Oyer]

I was still working in my, you know, same office, same job, as part of an attorney, I believe. Naively, it turns out that there was a path forward for clemency work even under this new administration, and it turned out not to be the case. Nobody was interested in my opinion or advice, and in fact, nobody was interested in following the traditional guidelines that the Justice Department plays in. In the clemency review process.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

So these pardons and the commutation of the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers. Yeah, the Oath Keepers. Those two got commutations.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, a handful of folks got commutations. I think about eight or nine. And then everyone else got full pardons. And some of these folks have leveraged those pardons into relieving them of convictions for other offenses as well, which has really been quite incredible to see. A couple of the January 6th pardoned defendants have gone on to commit new crimes and to make the argument that.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

The guy just got pardoned for a gun crime. Who? Trump gave him a second pardon.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, yeah, Yep. He got a second pardon for a crime that was committed subsequent to the January 6th insurrection.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Now, there's kind of a long list.

[Podcast Host]

Of surprising pardons from Trump.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

And you've spoken out about. He's changed the process and hasn't consulted with the Justice Department much as he does it himself, largely or.

[Liz Oyer]

Well, it seems like the pardon operation is running out of the White House for the most part, although the current pardon attorney, Ed Martin, is in the president's ear about some of these MAGA related cases. Ed Martin, who now occupies my old job, is known for his work in the Stop the Steal movement. He's an election denier who is really a political operative masquerading as an attorney. He occupies the role of pardon attorney and he also occupies the role of weaponization czar, he calls himself in the Justice Department. So he's got sort of a dual role of dispensing pardons to MAGA supporters and loyalists and using the justice system to prosecute enemies of Donald Trump. It is a made up position, but one that he has used in ways that are very destructive to the justice system.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Earlier this year, this is Martin. He was the acting U.S. attorney for D.C. right?

[Liz Oyer]

That's right.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

But Trump pulled his nomination because even.

[Podcast Host]

Some Republicans were objecting to him.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

And he was a big defender of the January 6th rider. Did he defend some of them?

[Liz Oyer]

He did. He represented some of them as a defense lawyer and then as U.S. attorney, he presided over the dismissal of their.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Cases and he believed that Trump won. He's a denier.

[Liz Oyer]

Yep. He was there on January 6th. He has described January 6th in Washington, D.C. as something along the lines of Mardi Gras. Mardi Gras is the illustration that he has used to evoke what January 6th was like at the Capitol.

[Podcast Host]

Well, that's obscene.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Is.

[Podcast Host]

So many Capitol police were injured, few died. So, you know, how's he running this operation?

[Liz Oyer]

Well, Martin has stated his views of the pardon power a couple of times on X in this term. No MAGA left behind. That's sort of his tagline. He believes that the clemency power should be used to.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

That was a sheriff. I think he said that after the sheriff, Scott Jenkins and Virginia sheriff, who, yes. Got bribes.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah. This sheriff was selling badges for cash. An elective sheriff was selling badges to people who wanted to use them to get out of traffic tickets or to be able to carry guns that they weren't otherwise legally allowed to carry. So he was selling badges. He was sentenced by a judge to 10 years in prison. And right before he was supposed to report to prison, Trump granted him a full pardon, seemingly on the suggestion of Ed Martin. Martin has also been supportive of pardons of other MAGA supporters that are really just not justified any under any traditional understanding of the pardon power. There was an elected official in Nevada named Michelle Fiore who actually was embezzling money from a police memorial fund. She was raising money to build a memorial to police officers who were killed in the line of duty, and she stole the money and spent it on plastic surgery. She got a full pardon from Donald Trump?

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

No, she said she was raising it for one purpose and got it for another.

[Liz Oyer]

Okay, right, right, right. And she got a pardon before she spent a day in jail. She didn't have to pay back any of the money she took. These seem to be pardons that Ed Martin has his fingerprints on, and his fingerprints are all over the one of the 77 election deniers who were pardoned recently. That's a case in which Martin again tweeted, no MAGA left behind. He sort of came to the defense of these folks who were involved in trying to overturn the 2020 election results.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Now, these were like some famous ones. Giuliani.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, there were a lot of folks in Trump's inner circle. Mark Meadows, John Eastman, Sidney Powell. A lot of the lawyers who were involved in the efforts to overturn the election results have been investigated and charged around the country with crimes involving interference with state election laws.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

But these are. He can only give federal pardons, right?

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, that's what's one of the things that's bizarre about this pardon, is that it purports to grant pardons to people who have not actually been charged with any federal crimes. The President has very broad pardon power under the Constitution, but he does not have the power to pardon state law crimes, only federal crimes. So whether this pardon has any legal effect is. Is in doubt. It seems like the idea was really more to send a message to supporters of Donald Trump that he has their.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

That he can violate, but next time violate a federal law.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, well, I think he's counting on folks not necessarily appreciating that distinction, but I think it's intended to send a message to his supporters in advance of the 2026 election that they can do what they need to do in the name of Donald Trump, and he will have their back. They can expect that they will be considered for relief through the pardon process for any crimes that they may commit in his name, which is really a scary Message to be sending in the current climate where we have a great deal of political violence. We had a major crisis in this country over the failure of a large part of our population to accept the results of a democratic election. So this is a very dangerous use of the pardon power, even if it doesn't really have a great legal effect on these cases.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Well, I mean, people can be careful to violate federal law so they can get their pardon. So they should do a little research on that.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, yeah, I think he's counting on people not doing that.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Now, some of this has been money, right?

[Liz Oyer]

Money has played a huge influence.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I looked up a couple of these. You know the case of Paul Walsack?

[Liz Oyer]

I do.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Okay, so he's this guy in Florida.

[Liz Oyer]

He was a neighbor of Donald Trump just down the way from Mar a Lago.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Oh, okay. So might be more than just money, it might be neighborliness. But he evidently submitted a pardon me.

[Podcast Host]

What did he do? He stole money from.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

The tax money from his worker. He ran a nursing home.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Liz Oyer]

He was a nursing home executive. And he was skimming money off the top of the paychecks of the doctors and nurses that he employed. And instead of paying the payroll taxes that he owed, he used it to buy a yacht. He used it to go shopping at Bergdorf Goodman. He used it to live a lavish lifestyle. Not as lavish as his mother's lifestyle, however, his mother, who owned, you know, a 11 million dollar home down the street from Mar A Lago, was able to pay a million dollars to attend a dinner with the president at Mar A Lago. And days later, Donald Trump granted her son a full pardon. Walsack had been sentence federal judge to 18 months in prison. And that judge said that he was sentencing Walsack in prison to send a message that wealth in this country is not a get out of jail free card. That's what he said at Walsack sentencing days later, Donald Trump said, you're wrong, your honor. Wealth is a get out of jail free card in this country. He granted Walsack a full pardon. He doesn't have to spend a day in prison. He doesn't have to pay back any of the money that he stole. He is scot free, off the hook because his mother was able to leverage her proximity to Mar A Lago and her financial resources to get that pardon.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

She went to like a million dollar dinner, right?

[Liz Oyer]

Million dollar plate dinner. Yep.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

But she had also donated to him during the previous campaign.

[Liz Oyer]

She had? Yep. She had donated to him to him previously. And she was, you know, in the right place at the right time with the right amount of money.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

So this I assume hadn't been done before in our history. Was has it that money kind of pass hands or.

[Liz Oyer]

Well, during Trump's first presidency, there was some reporting about fees that were being charged by lawyers in Trump's inner circle to lobby for pardons on behalf of their, in some cases successfully. But the amount of money at issue then seems almost quaint compared to what we are seeing now. And the thorough pervasiveness of financial and political influence in the pardon process is on a different order of magnitude during Trump's second term than it was during his first term.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Now, I watched your 60 Minutes and in that they talked about CZ, this Changpeng Zao, and that seemed pretty hinky.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, this is probably the most corrupt pardon in American history, considering the amount of money that's at issue and the nature of the offense that was committed. Zhao is originally a Chinese citizen who then became a citizen of the United Arab Emirates.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, he, he created Binance, which is the largest cryptocurrency exchange.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah. And Binance was operating in violation of US Anti money laundering laws. The US Has a system that requires people who operate cryptocurrency exchanges like Binance to ensure that their platform is not being used to funnel money to criminal organizations and terrorists. Zhao decided that he was not going to comply with those laws and allowed Binance to be used to send money to isis, Al Qaeda, Hamas, and to facilitate all sorts of criminal activity. The US Government made the determination that his conduct was endangering US national security. They prosecuted him, he agreed to pay a very large fine. And then Donald Trump swooped in and granted him a full pardon.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

He spent some time in prison too, right?

[Liz Oyer]

Like he spent four months or something months in prison. And according to news reports, he started researching how to get a pardon while he was in prison. And by the time he was released.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

It's a good use of time, I would think.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, not a bad use of time. When he came out of prison, he began working to help prop up the Trump family cryptocurrency company. The Trump sons have been very involved in founding this company in connection with their father called World Liberty Financial. And Zhao saw an opportunity to boost the success of the company in the. The biggest thing he did to facilitate that was he brokered a $2 billion investment in to ensure the successful launch of it. And that has carried the company to this day, earning tens of millions or maybe even hundreds of millions of dollars in profits for the Trump family. And people in Trump's inner circle. And after he did that, he got this pardon from Donald Trump. He does not meet any of the traditional criteria for consideration of a presidential pardon. He would never have been recommended for a pardon under the Department of Justice's long standing criteria. But Donald Trump doesn't care about those sorts of things. He granted him a full pardon despite the fact that he's someone that the US Government identified as endangering our national security.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

So this is very disturbing, of course.

[Liz Oyer]

Very, very. Yeah. I mean, this should be alarming to all Americans. Nothing that's happening in the pardon space is really a partisan issue. This is an issue that gets at the integrity of our justice system, our safety in country, the rule of law. So it honestly has surprised me, and maybe this sounds naive and Pollyanna ish, that, you know, we haven't seen outrage on both sides of the aisle about how the president is using the pardon power to the detriment of the American people who he is entrusted to serve.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Well, you know, the founders gave this to the President.

[Liz Oyer]

They did, and they assumed that the president would use it in the public interest. I don't think that it occurred to any of our founding fathers that the president would use the pardon power systematically in his own personal interest at the expense of the American people.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

And this I don't know. We couldn't get a constitutional amendment to change that. And how would we change it?

[Liz Oyer]

Well, because it's in the Constitution, you're right. It would take a constitutional amendment to rein it in or to remove it from the president. And given that, you know, we've got a Congress that could barely pass a budget to fund the government, a constitutional amendment does not seem likely in the near term. But there's, there is much more that Congress could be doing to demand accountability and transparency in the pardon space. They could require that the president promptly disclose pardons that are granted and provide a rationale to the American people for the use of the pardon power. They aren't disclosed now, not in any systematic way. Throughout history. Even in Trump's first administration, there is generally a press release that companies the accompanies the granting of a pardon that explains who's been pardoned and generally some rationale as to why that has not been happening during this administration, really. And we're sometimes finding out about pardons after the fact. Sometimes days have passed since the pardon was actually signed. They're just sort of trickling out, which raises questions as to whether there may be more pardons that have been signed that we don't yet know about.

[Podcast Host]

We're going to take a quick break.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

We'll be right back with Lizzo.

[Liz Oyer]

Now, you may have heard me talk.

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[Liz Oyer]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Podcast Host]

After you purchase, they'll ask you where.

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[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

That we sent you.

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[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

And we are back with Liz Oyer. Well, we know about George Sant.

[Liz Oyer]

We do. Yeah. Yeah. George Santos got a commutation of his sentence from Donald Trump. So he's out of jail. He's back on the Washington party scene already. He's been photographed in papers, you know, at parties, whining and dining, that sort of thing.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Who's inviting him to parties?

[Liz Oyer]

I don't, I don't know. I don't know.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

He's apparently, maybe he's just crashing them.

[Liz Oyer]

I think he's, he's, you know, re. Ingratiated himself with some people. I think that basically what happened here is, is he's put himself in a situation where he's now going to be shilling for Donald Trump for the rest of his life. He is deeply indebted to Donald Trump, and so now he's going to be shilling for Trump whatever it takes, wherever.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Well, how valuable is that? I mean, in other words, as your, you know, your spokesman, George Sando, as.

[Liz Oyer]

Your qualifier, I think, you know, shilling for Donald Trump sounds like a fate worse than prison. Personally, I would have just served out that sentence and avoided that if I were him.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Well, how long did he have? He had quite a few years. Right.

[Liz Oyer]

More years left to serve. And he committed the type of crime that is generally taken very seriously because he was an elected official at the time that he committed it. So, you know, very rarely are elected officials granted clemency under most presidents. However, Donald Trump has, across his two administrations, pardoned about 20 elected officials who committed crimes that involved corruption of their public office, betrayals of the public trust. Jorge Santos is one of those people. He betrayed his constituents and also the victims who he defrauded. And as a result of this pardon, he doesn't have to pay back any of the money that he took and he's, you know, back on the streets living his life.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

It was a, it was a commutation. So is that different in terms of whether it relieves you of that?

[Liz Oyer]

So Trump is doing something typically commutations, reduce the prison portion of the sentence only, but that's not how Donald Trump has been doing commutations. All of the commutations that Trump has granted during this term have also wiped out all of the other aspects of the sentence, which includes any financial penalties. So in George Santos's case, he was supposed to have to pay back around $300,000, but the commutation wiped out that obligation and it also. Yeah, yeah. And it also came hence.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

He can afford to go to these parties and wear something nice.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah. It reset, resets him financially. And it also eliminated the requirement of supervised relief. Typically at the end of a sentence, there is a period of essentially probation to ensure accountability to the courts during a transition period that was also wiped out by the commutation.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Let me ask you about Ghislaine Maxwell.

[Podcast Host]

I don't know.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Did you read the interview with Todd? Blanche interviewed her in prison, the old prison, not nice prison. That interview was published, Right. And released. Did you happen to read it?

[Liz Oyer]

Yep, I did.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. I didn't, I didn't read it, but I kind of got the gist.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

I saw some of the excerpts.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Once she read it, it didn't seem that what she said was that Trump did not knew nothing about what was going on, according to her.

[Liz Oyer]

Yes. She said what Blanche wanted to hear. I mean, she was playing a part in this interview. Right. Like she was was there for a purpose, which was to exonerate Donald Trump from any improper conduct in connection with Jeffrey Epstein. And she played that part. Todd Blanch, who was interviewing her, did not push back on any of her assertions. And shockingly, he didn't show her any documents that seemed to contradict what she said in that interview. He just let her say what he wanted to hear and said thank you very much and transferred her to this, this nice new prison.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Did you say anywhere in it you're, you were convicted by a jury and. No.

[Liz Oyer]

You know, one thing that has kind of flown under the radar is that the prosecutor who secured the conviction of Ghislaine Maxwell, the person who knows more.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

About that, Comey's daughter.

[Liz Oyer]

Yes. Is, is Jim Comey's daughter, Maureen Comey, who was fired very shortly before that interview took place.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

So she could have done that interview and it would have been a little different.

[Liz Oyer]

In any ordinary scenario in the Justice Department, she's the one who would done that interview because she's more knowledgeable than anybody about the case. It seems like her firing was an effort to get her out of the way so that this interview could not be fact checked by a career professional in the Justice Department.

[Podcast Host]

Well, I don't think they would have sent her.

[Liz Oyer]

Right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the idea that the number two official at the Justice Department goes to a prison to interview someone who has convict been convicted of a very serious sex crime against children, that just doesn't happen. That really defies all norms as far as the Justice Department and its work and the fact that somebody in the building who was much more informed than Todd Blanche was fired shortly before the interview took place really just raises a lot of alarm bells. I mean, the interview appears to have been conducted in Blanche's capacity as Donald Trump's personal lawyer, not in his capacity as the Deputy Attorney General for the United States of America.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

And of course, soon after that, she was moved.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, yeah. So I can tell you as a former federal public defender that the Bureau of Prisons has very rigid policies and procedures in place about where they designate people to serve their prison sentences. And one of those rules is that if you have been convicted of a sex crime, you cannot serve your sentence in a minimum security camp. The reason for that is that these camps have open boundaries. There's no secure perimeter or around the camp. So in theory, you could walk off and go into the community and continue to harm children. So sex offenders are not allowed to serve their time in camps, and it requires a waiver of that policy at the highest levels to transfer a sex offender to a minimum security camp. I have never heard of it happening ever before, obviously.

[Podcast Host]

And she, she's getting special treatment there, meals delivered her to her dorm. I think she exercises, gets exercised privately or something. And she, the warden has prepared her document for the commutation of her sentence.

[Liz Oyer]

That's what's been reported. I mean, I want to remind folks that she's still in prison, okay? And prison isn't so great no matter what kind of prison you're in. But she is in a prison where she has more freedom of movement, fewer restrictions than she would at this other prison. And she appears to be getting special treatment even within that prison compared to the other incarcerated women. It's no surprise that she's working on a commutation petition, but the fact that she's getting access to prison resources to assist her in doing that is unusual. And really, the big point about the commutation application is that this was clearly something that she is engaging in in the hopes of a quid pro quo. Hopefully, by exonerating Donald Trump, Trump will pardon her and she will get out from under this 20 year prison sentence that she's currently serving. She doesn' have any path through the courts for relief at this point. So the only way out from under is to get Donald Trump to commute her sentence.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

When would you expect that? I mean, obviously that would not happen before the midterms, I don't think.

[Liz Oyer]

You know, the thing is about the pardons that have been issued to date is none of them make any sense. Like, I wouldn't have thought that Changpeng Zhao would have gotten a pardon when he did. I wouldn't have really thought that any of these highly political pardons would have been granted, ever. Somebody would have told Donald Trump, this is going to alienate the American people if you do this. It's not a good look. But he's not responding to that advice. So I don't know what he could do with this case or when he may decide that he wants to do it at any point. He just doesn't seem like he's following any rational, logical plot with his grants of clemency during his second term.

[Podcast Host]

Well, a commutation of her sentence. Sentence would be different than cz. America would go apeshit.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

America would be outraged. You saw the vote this week by.

[Liz Oyer]

Congress and yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it would certainly cause outrage on a different level if she were to receive a commutation of sentence. And one thing that is really just shocking about the discussion of it is that Trump is refusing to rule it out. He's been asked about it numerous times, and he says things like, like, well, I can do it. I'm allowed to do it. I haven't thought about it. I don't know if I'm going to do it. And by even entertaining the possibility, he is really making a mockery of the seriousness of the offense that she was convicted of, and he is betraying the victims of her crime. No one at the Justice Department or in the White House appears to have sat down with the victims to hear their stories. It is required under DOJ policies that victims are consulted at every step of the way, but there's no sign that. That Todd Blanche consulted with the victims.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

So that's part of the process. That's part of the pardon process.

[Liz Oyer]

It's required by law. It's required by DOJ internal policies and procedures in the pardon process. It's required that victims have the opportunity to weigh in before the Department of Justice will even consider recommending that the president grant clemency. So that is a longstanding feature of the process, and it's.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Makes perfect sense.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, it does. It does. And it's. The victims would be consulted. Ordinarily, the prosecuting U.S. attorney would be consulted. The sentencing judge would be consulted. I mean, the victim's input is the most important. But there are other stakeholders who also would weigh in, and all of that would be taken under consideration and an evaluation would be made. And I can tell you that under any administration in history, the recommendation as to Glenn Maxwell would be to deny her application out of hand. So the fact that this president is continuing to string this along and won't just categorically say, no, I'm not going to do that, it's really just shocking in and of itself. Even if he doesn't eventually do it, the fact that he continues to entertain the possibility, continues to allow the victims to live with the knowledge that this could happen, it's re traumatizing to them and it's really just a disgrace to the office.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

But it strings her along, Maxwell.

[Liz Oyer]

It does, yeah. It keeps her on the hook. That's part of what he's doing systematically with pardons. He is keeping a lot of people on the hook by dangling the possibility that he could grant them a pardon. Whether or not he has any intention of doing it, nobody knows. But he did the same thing with George Santos before he ultimately did commute his sentence. He's doing that with Diddy. He's doing that in a lot of the high profile cases where he won't rule it out. He's keeping people on the hook. People are paying lawyers and lobbyists in his inner circle huge sums of money to try to increase their chances. People are offering their political support to Donald Trump to curry favor with him. And he's a amassing power and wealth just by dangling the possibility of pardons.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Is there anyone who Trump has pardoned that you would have recommended a pardon for, or are you.

[Liz Oyer]

Well, the pardons during this second term have been really pretty horrific across the board. I can't say that there's not a single one in there that might be worthwhile, but overall, they're really quite bad.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Give me an egregious, egregious one that I haven't mentioned that we haven't.

[Liz Oyer]

So the most egregious one that you haven't mentioned that jumps to mind is the pardon of Trevor Milton. Trevor Milton founded a company called Nikola, which was supposedly.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

He's a billionaire, right?

[Liz Oyer]

He was a billionaire. He was a billionaire, okay.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Yeah.

[Liz Oyer]

And he was a billionaire on paper because his fortune was built on a fraud. He was supposed to be building the world's first electric powered semi truck truck. And the whole thing was a fraud. He didn't have the technology. He filmed an ad that supposedly showed a prototype of the truck driving. And it turned out that a bunch of people pushed this truck down the hill. The truck didn't actually work and it was just a massive fraud on his investors. And most of his investors were, you know, mom and pop investors. Retail investors, people who had invested retirement savings in his company, pension funds that had invested on behalf of government workers. He was convicted at trial of defrauding his investors, and the government was seeking nearly $700 million in restitution to compensate his victims for their losses. Donald Trump swooped in before Milton was sent to prison to serve his time, and he pardoned him. He granted him a full pardon so he didn't have to go to prison and he doesn't have to pay back back any of this money. Milton had donated about $1.8 million to Trump's campaign and related causes, and he leveraged that donation into a full pardon. And nobody consulted the victims, nobody consulted the prosecutors on the case, nobody consulted the sentencing judge. He just got this full pardon from Donald Trump based seemingly on political donations.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Jesus.

[Liz Oyer]

And meanwhile, there are thousands and thousands of ordinary Americans whose applications are piling up at the Justice Department. When I last checked, there were about 15,000 applications pending. The number now has not been updated since before the government shut down, but I've heard that it's closer to 20,000 people who are patiently waiting their turn.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

That's a lot of applications. I mean, I saw the numbers for when Obama was president and when Biden was president. Biden, of course, gave clemency to a much higher percentage of those who applied.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah. The issue here is that, you know, there's no path forward for ordinary people who are deserving in this administration, and that wasn't entirely the case during Trump's first presidency. And I want to acknowledge that there were some worthy people who received clemency during Donald Trump's first presidency. There were some very deserving people who got clemency based on merit, not based on money and political connections. There were some who received clemency then who were not deserving, but, you know, there were some really legitimate ones in addition to the illegitimate ones. Now it's all illegitimate. The whole process has been thoroughly corrupted and delegitimized.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Well, thank you so much for coming on. And now you go as a lawyer. Lawyer, yeah.

[Liz Oyer]

I'm on all the social media platforms as Lawyer Oyer, and I'm trying to inform the public about these abuses of the pardon power and other legal issues that should really concern all of us as Americans.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

That's your substack? That's your substack Lawyer?

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, I have a lawyer. A lawyer, Oregon on Substack, as well as Instagram and TikTok.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Okay, great. Well, thank you so much.

[Liz Oyer]

Thanks for having me on. I enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much for highlighting these important issues.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

Well, you bet.

[Podcast Host]

Well, I hope you enjoyed listening.

[Interviewer (possibly Al Franken)]

That beautiful music is by Leo Kottke. The great Leo Kottke. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next week.

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