The Al Franken Podcast

Episode: Lawyer Liz Oyer on Trump’s Corrupt Pardons
Date: November 23, 2025
Guests: Liz Oyer – former U.S. Pardon Attorney, Justice Department

Main Theme / Purpose

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Al Franken and Liz Oyer, who served as the Justice Department’s pardon attorney under multiple administrations, including as the first public defender in the role. The discussion centers on the evolution—and perceived corruption—of presidential pardons, with a focus on Donald Trump’s unprecedented use of clemency for political and personal gain during his second term, and the broader implications for American democracy, the justice system, and public trust.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Liz Oyer’s Background and Experience

• Oyer clarifies that her role as pardon attorney was a career, nonpolitical position held into both the Biden and Trump administrations.

  "I was the pardon attorney throughout most of the Biden administration, but also into the Trump administration because I was a career employee." (05:23 – Liz Oyer)

• She was abruptly fired under Trump after refusing to recommend restoring firearm rights to Mel Gibson, who was barred due to a domestic violence conviction.

  "I was unwilling to do it...I declined multiple invitations to change my mind. I was fired." (06:18–07:10 – Liz Oyer)

• After her termination, Oyer testified before Congress, recounting intimidation tactics involving armed U.S. marshals delivering a threatening legal letter before her testimony.

  "At the time...my teenager was home alone. I wasn't home when I got word...They were supposed to arrive there at 10 o’clock at night." (07:41–08:58 – Liz Oyer)

2. Foundations and Purpose of the Presidential Pardon

• The pardon power is an inherited vestige from British monarchy, included in the Constitution mainly at Alexander Hamilton’s urging, originally intended for public good and national unity.

  "Ultimately, largely due to the influence of Alexander Hamilton, it was put in the Constitution despite the fact that it’s really a vestige of monarchy." (09:11–09:38 – Liz Oyer)

3. The Clemency Process: How It (Should) Work

• The Office of the Pardon Attorney performs a rigorous, merit-based vetting for clemency recommendations to the President.

  "There’s an application process…all based on merit, showing that you really deserve the opportunity…that you’ve earned it." (10:53–11:47 – Liz Oyer)

• Under Biden and Obama, commutations focused on correcting excessive drug sentences; Biden’s pardon of his son Hunter caused internal dissent and public trust issues.

  "We were not consulted...We would not have recommended that and...believed that really diminished the pardon power in the eyes of the public." (13:47–14:22 – Liz Oyer)

4. Trump’s First Term: Increasing Politicization

• Pardons often bypassed the traditional vetting process, with political allies (e.g., Paul Manafort, Charles Kushner) directly benefiting.

  "People who leveraged political connections to get pardons…did not go through the ordinary vetting process." (17:37–18:11 – Liz Oyer)

• Nonetheless, some worthy cases were granted due to Kushner and Ivanka’s interest in criminal justice reform.

5. Trump’s Second Term: Systemic Corruption

• The process is now fully “about political connections and money.”

  "There's nobody who is receiving serious consideration...who even comes close to meeting the criteria that have long been used." (18:36–19:00 – Liz Oyer)

• On Day 1, nearly 1,600 January 6th rioters were pardoned without Justice Department input.

  "I got a news alert on my phone, just like the rest of America, announcing these pardons." (19:12–19:25 – Liz Oyer)

Role of Ed Martin (Current Pardon Attorney and “Weaponization Czar”)

• Ed Martin, a MAGA political operative and Stop the Steal proponent, reportedly steers the pardon process directly from the White House.

  "He occupies the role of pardon attorney and...weaponization czar...dispensing pardons to MAGA supporters and...prosecuting enemies of Donald Trump." (21:02–21:57 – Liz Oyer)

• Martin’s motto: “No MAGA left behind.” (22:58, 23:11 – Liz Oyer)

Examples of Notable, Controversial Pardons

• Sheriff Scott Jenkins: Pardoned after selling badges for cash. (23:11–23:20)
• Michelle Fiore: Embezzled police memorial funds, spent on plastic surgery—pardoned before serving time. (24:13–24:17)
• 77 Election Deniers: Pardoned for efforts to overturn the 2020 election, including Mark Meadows, John Eastman, Sidney Powell. Troublingly, many never faced federal charges—formal effectiveness of these pardons is in question, but their symbolic message is dangerous. (24:45–26:43)

  "It’s intended to send a message...they can do what they need to do in the name of Donald Trump, and he will have their back." (25:49–26:33 – Liz Oyer)

Pardons for Cash and Influence

• Paul Walsack: Nursing home exec convicted of tax fraud; mother donated a million dollars for a Mar-a-Lago dinner—he received a full pardon.

  "Wealth is a get out of jail free card in this country." (27:28–28:44 – Liz Oyer)

• Changpeng Zhao (CZ): Binance founder convicted for enabling money laundering for terror groups, then pardoned after brokering a $2b investment in Trump family’s cryptocurrency venture.

  "Probably the most corrupt pardon in American history." (29:52–30:12 – Liz Oyer)
  "He would never have been recommended for a pardon under the Department of Justice’s long standing criteria.” (31:08–32:21 – Liz Oyer)

6. Systemic Consequences & Lack of Accountability

• There’s no meaningful transparency: pardons are not always disclosed or rationalized as in past administrations.

  “Sometimes days have passed...we’re sometimes finding out about pardons after the fact...there may be more...we don’t yet know about.” (33:00–34:35 – Liz Oyer)

• Discusses how Congress could legislate greater disclosure and justification, even absent a constitutional amendment.

7. Other High-Profile/Controversial Cases

• George Santos: Sentence commuted; commutation wiped out prison, financial restitution, and supervision requirements—rare even for corrupt officials. (37:44–40:14)
• Ghislaine Maxwell:
  • Interviewed in prison by Trump’s Deputy AG/Todd Blanche (Trump’s personal lawyer), after firing of prosecutor Maureen Comey (Jim Comey’s daughter).
  • Transferred to minimum-security camp (requires high-level waiver not used previously for sex offenders).
  • Reportedly preparing commutation request as part of quid pro quo for exonerating Trump in the Epstein affair.

  "It is required under DOJ policies that victims are consulted at every step of the way...there’s no sign...that Todd Blanche consulted with the victims." (46:15–47:12 – Liz Oyer)

• Trevor Milton: Nikola founder, convicted of fraud, pardoned after major donations to Trump.

  "He was convicted at trial of defrauding his investors...Trump swooped in before Milton was sent to prison...Milton had donated about $1.8 million to Trump's campaign...and he leveraged that donation into a full pardon." (49:37–51:25 – Liz Oyer)

8. Impact on Deserving Applicants

• 20,000+ applications, many from nonviolent or rehabilitated individuals, are now ignored; the process is "thoroughly corrupted and delegitimized."

  "Now it’s all illegitimate. The whole process has been thoroughly corrupted and delegitimized." (52:02–52:41 – Liz Oyer)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the shift in use of pardons:

  "The thorough pervasiveness of financial and political influence in the pardon process is on a different order of magnitude during Trump's second term." (29:08–29:40 – Liz Oyer)

• On Ed Martin’s philosophy:

  "No MAGA left behind. That’s sort of his tagline." (22:58–23:11 – Liz Oyer)

• On the consequences for rule of law:

  “This is an issue that gets at the integrity of our justice system, our safety in country, the rule of law.” (32:24–32:56 – Liz Oyer)

• On Trump’s use of pardons as leverage:

  “He is keeping a lot of people on the hook by dangling the possibility that he could grant them a pardon…People are offering their political support…He’s amassing power and wealth just by dangling the possibility of pardons.” (48:29–49:12 – Liz Oyer)

• On the lack of outrage and Congressional action:

  “We haven’t seen outrage on both sides of the aisle about how the president is using the pardon power to the detriment of the American people." (32:56–33:00 – Liz Oyer)

Important Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|--------------------| | 05:23 | Oyer’s background, role as first public defender pardon attorney | | 06:18 | The “Mel Gibson incident” and Oyer’s firing | | 07:41 | DOJ intimidation tactics before congressional testimony | | 09:11 | Origin of the pardon power and Hamilton’s influence | | 10:53 | Typical clemency application process at DOJ | | 13:47 | Biden’s controversial pardon of son Hunter | | 17:43 | Trump’s first-term clemency: political connections | | 18:36 | Current structure: process "all about political connections and money" | | 19:12 | Trump’s Day 1: 1,600 January 6th rioters pardoned | | 21:02 | Ed Martin’s dual roles and philosophy | | 23:11 | “No MAGA left behind” and scandalous MAGA pardons | | 27:01 | Paul Walsack case: pardons for cash, Mar-a-Lago donations | | 29:52 | Changpeng Zhao (CZ): national security, business quid pro quo | | 33:00 | Deficiencies in pardon disclosure and lack of Congressional constraints | | 37:44 | George Santos’s commutation and implications | | 40:35 | Ghislaine Maxwell: special prison treatment, commutation prospects | | 49:37 | Trevor Milton: billionaire fraud, campaign donation for pardon | | 51:49 | Pending applications crisis; contrast to previous presidents |

Tone and Language

• The conversation is candid, sharply critical, and at times darkly humorous—hallmarks of Al Franken’s political commentary—while Oyer delivers measured, insider detail seasoned by her legal expertise and ethical concerns.
• The episode is equal parts policy analysis, whistleblower testimony, and political satire, but with a serious underlying warning about erosion in American legal norms.

Closing Note

Liz Oyer closes by encouraging public engagement and education about legal abuses via her newsletter and social media (Substack: Lawyer Oyer; Instagram/TikTok: @lawyeroyer).

"I'm trying to inform the public about these abuses of the pardon power and other legal issues that should really concern all of us as Americans." (52:50–53:07 – Liz Oyer)

For those seeking a comprehensive, real-time window into the expanding and often corrupt use of executive clemency, this episode delivers a deeply informed and alarm-sounding account of how the pardon process has been transformed—and weaponized—since Trump’s return to office.