Mark Leibovich and Molly Jong-Fast on Trump’s 100 Days

Summary

Summary of "Mark Leibovich and Molly Jong-Fast on Trump’s 100 Days" – The Al Franken Podcast

Release Date: May 4, 2025

In this engaging episode of The Al Franken Podcast, host Al Franken sits down with distinguished guests Mark Leibovich of The Atlantic and Molly Jong-Fast of the Fast Politics with Molly Jong-Fast podcast to dissect the first 100 days of Donald Trump's administration. The conversation delves into a myriad of underreported actions, economic policies, social initiatives, and the broader implications for the United States. The trio navigates through Trump's controversial decisions, shedding light on both overt and subtle maneuvers shaping the nation's trajectory.

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1. Introduction: Setting the Stage

Al Franken opens the discussion by acknowledging the extensive coverage of Trump’s first 100 days, emphasizing major topics like tariffs, the stock market, the war in Ukraine, immigration policies, and infrastructure projects. However, he expresses a desire to spotlight some of the "horrible things" the administration has undertaken that haven’t received adequate media attention.

Al Franken [01:01]:
"I care deeply about these issues. But I want to talk today about some of the horrible things the Trump administration has done that have been under reported."

---

2. Rapid Fire Ridiculousness: Unpacking the Oddities

Franken introduces a segment titled "rapid fire ridiculousness," aimed at eliciting immediate reactions from his guests on some of Trump's more bizarre initiatives.

a. The Gold Decor in the Oval Office

The conversation begins with the striking gold decor adorning the Oval Office, which Franken humorously compares to a Trump Hotel.

Mark Leibovich [02:05]:
"This seems to be a full, fuller version of the Trump aesthetic, fanning out into the new administration."

Molly Jong-Fast [02:45]:
"It's got nice North Korea vibes."

b. Annexing Greenland and Canada

Franken transitions to Trump's audacious plans to annex Greenland and suggest Canada as the 51st state. He references Mark Carney's visit to an Air Force base in Greenland and the administration's flitting rhetoric regarding annexation.

Al Franken [02:50]:
"Trump has been taking us, has us taking a different look at our maps. The Gulf of Mexico is no longer. We now have the Gulf of America. And he hopes to annex Greenland."

Mark Leibovich [04:05]:
"There are 57,000 Greenlanders in the whole country, making it smaller in population than Bethesda, Maryland."
(04:05)
Molly Jong-Fast [04:29]:
"Trump is calling Canada the 51st state, but after Mark Carney's victory, he's now referring to Trudeau as the Prime Minister instead of the governor."
(04:29)

c. Don Jr.'s Executive Branch Social Club

The discussion moves to Don Jr.'s new social club, "The Executive Branch," which boasts a hefty membership fee.

Al Franken [05:14]:
"Don Jr. has a new social club called the Executive Branch, which will open in D.C. next month. It has a $500,000 membership fee, plus annual dues."

Mark Leibovich [05:14]:
"Molly and I are trying to get our applications together. We're clearly interested, right, Molly?"

Molly Jong-Fast [05:25]:
"No, I have not heard about the Trump watches, but I have heard about a lot of the other stuff, like the Trump coin."

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3. Economic Policies: The Tariff Tug-of-War

A significant portion of the conversation centers on Trump's tariff policies and their cascading effects on the U.S. economy.

a. Tariffs and Trade Wars

The guests critique Trump's approach to tariffs, particularly targeting China, and the resultant economic instability.

Molly Jong-Fast [10:45]:
"The tariffs regime is probably the thing that has got him down into the 30s."
(10:45)

Mark Leibovich [11:03]:
"His number one reason for being elected is to cut prices, but this isn't doing that."

b. Potential Stagflation

Franken and his guests explore the looming threat of stagflation—a combination of stagnant economic growth and high inflation—stemming from Trump's policies.

Molly Jong-Fast [35:31]:
"Stagflation means things are more expensive and you're in a recession. That's what happened in the 1980s and 1970s."

Mark Leibovich [35:25]:
"If Trump changes his mind, this is where we're heading in two, three weeks. Otherwise, we might face a catastrophe."

c. Port Traffic and Supply Chain Disruptions

They discuss the sharp decline in port traffic at major ports like Los Angeles and Long Beach, predicting severe shortages of goods, including holiday presents.

Molly Jong-Fast [33:49]:
"Port traffic is down 60% next week and 80% the week after. We'll run out of China-made stuff in the States, leading to a catastrophe."

---

4. Social and Domestic Policies: Government Reductions and Public Welfare

The trio examines Trump's attempts to dismantle key government agencies and programs, highlighting the potential humanitarian and societal impacts.

a. Eliminating FEMA and NOAA

Trump’s move to abolish FEMA and NOAA is critiqued as a step toward extreme federalism, where disaster response is left to individual states without centralized support.

Al Franken [15:30]:
"They want to eliminate 988, a suicide and crisis hotline for LGBTQ youth."

Molly Jong-Fast [27:28]:
"They want to privatize FEMA functions, leaving states to handle disasters without federal support."

Mark Leibovich [26:15]:
"Trump wants to get rid of FEMA. Currently, there are FEMA resources across the country for disasters."

b. Cutting NIH Funding

A controversial shift in National Institutes of Health (NIH) funding is analyzed, particularly Elon Musk’s influence in capping indirect grant funding, which threatens scientific research and innovation.

Molly Jong-Fast [21:05]:
"Elon Musk capped NIH indirect funding for medical research to 15%, freezing a lot of scientific work."

Al Franken [21:54]:
"NIH has come up with cures for stuff and does basic research for pharmaceutical companies."

Mark Leibovich [24:17]:
"Intellectual property from foreign grants undermines American innovation."

c. Impact on Scientific Research

The guests discuss the broader implications of reduced NIH funding, including a potential brain drain as scientists seek grants from other countries, leading to decreased innovation and economic growth domestically.

Molly Jong-Fast [22:43]:
"We're going to lose a brain drain to end all brain drains, resulting in less scientific research and fewer patents in the U.S."

Mark Leibovich [24:54]:
"Imagine a scientist in New Jersey switching to French grants, transferring intellectual property abroad."

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5. Influence of Elon Musk: Intersection of Technology and Politics

The episode explores Elon Musk’s role in shaping federal policies, especially concerning scientific funding and executive decisions.

Al Franken [19:07]:
"Elon Musk is conducting 'five things you did this week' emails to the federal government."

Molly Jong-Fast [19:07]:
"Elon Musk lacks advisors who tell him his ideas are bad, similar to Trump’s isolated decision-making."

Mark Leibovich [20:20]:
"Both Musk and Trump exhibit a narcissistic sense of entitlement, exacerbated by their respective statuses."

Molly Jong-Fast [21:05]:
"Elon Musk's interference in NIH funding showcases his disregard for established scientific processes."

---

6. Government Overreach: Executive Orders and Targeting Individuals

Trump's extensive use of executive orders to target specific individuals and entities is scrutinized, highlighting the authoritarian undertones of his administration.

a. Targeting Chris Krebs and Others

Al Franken [17:49]:
"Tell me about Chris Krebs. He was head of cybersecurity and was fired for not supporting election fraud claims."

Mark Leibovich [17:59]:
"Chris Krebs is losing all clearances and is being harassed, representing an abuse of power."

b. Resentment Presidency

The administration’s penchant for wielding executive power to settle personal vendettas is discussed as a destabilizing force in governance.

Molly Jong-Fast [45:08]:
"He uses executive orders to target people he doesn't like, like Chris Krebs. It's a resentment presidency."

Mark Leibovich [45:46]:
"The psychic toll of the government targeting individuals is incredibly high, especially in Washington, D.C."

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7. Impact on Tourism and National Image

The panel addresses the decline in tourism due to Trump's policies, affecting major economic hubs and the overall international perception of the U.S.

Mark Leibovich [29:09]:
"Tourism in places like Las Vegas and national parks is taking a major hit, exacerbated by Trump's isolationist policies."

Molly Jong-Fast [29:23]:
"America has become an economic pariah, damaging the tourism sector and global relationships."

Al Franken [30:42]:
"Tourist destinations are struggling, impacting local economies reliant on visitors."

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8. Political Dynamics and Party Challenges

The conversation transitions to the internal struggles within the Republican and Democratic parties, analyzing approval ratings and leadership issues.

a. Republican Party Loyalty

Leibovich and Jong-Fast discuss the unyielding loyalty within the Republican party, with historical comparisons to past administrations.

Mark Leibovich [31:05]:
"There's a much more purified reduction of loyalty, with no one standing up against Trump."

b. Democratic Party Leadership

The challenges faced by the Democratic party, including leadership appointments and approval ratings, are critically examined.

Molly Jong-Fast [38:01]:
"Democrats have a 35% approval rating in Georgia, struggling with leadership and communication."

Mark Leibovich [39:24]:
"John McCain and Bob Corker have been replaced by less effective leaders, diluting the party's influence."

Al Franken [37:32]:
"Democrats' approval ratings are low, partly due to ineffective leadership and inability to counter Trump's narrative."

---

9. The Illusion of Activity: Executive Orders vs. Legislative Achievements

Franken and his guests critique the administration’s focus on executive actions over tangible legislative progress, questioning the effectiveness of such strategies.

Al Franken [44:22]:
"Trump’s constant illusion of activity through executive orders masks the lack of actual legislative achievements."

Mark Leibovich [44:54]:
"Executive orders amount to press releases without substantive policy changes."

Molly Jong-Fast [45:00]:
"Executive orders targeting specific individuals are not productive and showcase the administration's flawed priorities."

---

10. Conclusion: Assessing the First 100 Days

As the episode draws to a close, the guests offer a somber reflection on the Trump administration’s early actions, emphasizing the long-term repercussions for the U.S. economy, scientific community, and societal fabric.

Mark Leibovich [46:10]:
"The most destructive actions include airline safety cuts and USAID reductions, harming both national and global communities."

Molly Jong-Fast [46:10]:
"The government's overreach is causing fear and uncertainty among the populace, with lasting psychological impacts."

Al Franken [47:00]:
"The administration has packed too much into the first 100 days, setting a troubling precedent for governance."

The episode effectively captures the trio's critical analysis of Trump's initial tenure, highlighting the administration's contentious policies and their broader implications. Through insightful dialogue and pointed critiques, Franken, Leibovich, and Jong-Fast provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the complexities and challenges unfolding in the early days of Trump's presidency.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Al Franken [01:01]:
  "I want to talk today about some of the horrible things the Trump administration has done that have been under reported."

• Mark Leibovich [02:05]:
  "This seems to be a full, fuller version of the Trump aesthetic, fanning out into the new administration."

• Molly Jong-Fast [10:45]:
  "The tariffs regime is probably the thing that has got him down into the 30s."

• Molly Jong-Fast [35:31]:
  "Stagflation means things are more expensive and you're in a recession."

• Mark Leibovich [29:09]:
  "Tourism in places like Las Vegas and national parks is taking a major hit, exacerbated by Trump's isolationist policies."

• Molly Jong-Fast [45:17]:
  "The administration’s penchant for wielding executive power to settle personal vendettas is a destabilizing force."

These highlighted quotes encapsulate the core sentiments expressed by the guests, providing listeners with poignant insights into the ongoing political discourse surrounding Trump's leadership.

Transcript

[Al Franken]

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[Al Franken]

Hey everybody, we've got a great one today. Today. You know, for a change, our old friends Mark Leibovich of the Atlantic and Molly Jung Fast of her Fast Politics with Molly Jung Fast podcast are joining me to explore Trump's first 100 days. You know, everybody's been doing their own recap of the first hundred days, you know, getting into the big issues like tariffs and the stock market and the war in Ukraine, the immigrants sent to El Salvador without due process, signal gate and all of Doge's destruction. And I care deeply about these issues. But I want to talk today about some of the horrible things the Trump administration has done that have been under reported. So let's give them some of the attention they deserve. I want to start by trying something new. These are rapid fire ridiculousness. And Molly, Mark, I'd love your reactions to each of these. First, the gold decor in the Oval Office. It looks like a Trump Hotel there now.

[Mark Leibovich]

Doesn't seems like it. I haven't seen it up close, but a number of my colleagues were there. Three of my colleagues were there for an interview last week and they said it's much more striking. I mean, I guess there have been, there's obviously been photographs and there's been video, but apparently it's just much more striking to see in person. And yeah, I mean, this is the Trump decor. It is, it is. I mean, you know, you saw hints of it in the first term, although I will say, like the Trump Hotel that was in Washington, Washington, the first term was actually fairly tastefully adorned. I mean, it was a little bit, it was grand, but it didn't have a lot of those touches. This seems to be a full, fuller version of the Trump aesthetic. Fanning out into the new administration.

[Molly Jung Fast]

It's got nice North Korea vibes.

[Al Franken]

Now, Trump has been taking us, has us taking a different look at our maps. The Gulf of Mexico is no longer. We now have the Gulf of America. And he hopes to annex Greenland. We missed you a couple times ago when you were stuck in Greenland, right?

[Mark Leibovich]

I think we did. Yeah. That would have been a perfect time, but I was stuck in Greenland and the. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to communicate from there. And I was in the middle of something.

[Al Franken]

So he talks about annexing Greenland. Vance visited and just got to see an Air Force base there.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. It seems like it was scaled back. It seemed like they had plans for. Well, first of all, Usha Vance, his wife, the second lady, went, and there was so much fanfare around her trip, they were worried that she was not going to be greeted well at all. And since she's pretty novice as a public figure, it looked like they sort of, at the last minute, added the Vice president to this. But they also scaled back the itinerary, and it turned out to be a pretty safe toe touch kind of trip into, like, a military base in the north where there are no, like, real people around that you would have to interact with or they would have to interact with. So it was basically very in and out, and it looked like it was just intended by the end just to do no harm.

[Al Franken]

57,000 Greenlanders.

[Mark Leibovich]

That's how many are there in the whole country. Yeah. The capital city of Nuuk and UK is like 15,000. So basically the entire country is physically the size of more than three Texas, but it is smaller in population than Bethesda, Maryland.

[Al Franken]

And now Trump has suggested that Canada be the 51st state.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. And, well, his dealings with the former prime minister. He used to refer to Trudeau as the governor, the governor of our 51st state. But a few days ago, Mark Carney, the Liberal candidate, won a major upset victory that was almost entirely attributed to Donald Trump's clear preference for the other guy. And Trump is calling him the Prime Minister now. So he hasn't used the governor of our 51st state in at least three or four days since Carney's been elected. For. For whatever that's worth.

[Al Franken]

Okay. Now, Don Jr. Has a new social club called the Executive Branch, which will open in D.C. sometime next month. It has a $500,000 membership fee, plus annual dues. Have you heard about this thing?

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. Molly and I, I think, are trying to get our applications together. Right. We're trying to pull. We're trying to get the admission fee, we need to, like, figure out how to raise the money. But we're clearly interested, right, Molly?

[Al Franken]

And Trump has begun selling watches. Trump watches. Which range from $500 to $100,000 for a Trump watch.

[Mark Leibovich]

Talk about inflation.

[Al Franken]

Have you heard about this? Have you heard about the Trump watches?

[Molly Jung Fast]

No, I have not heard about the Trump watches, but I have heard about a lot of the other stuff, like the Trump coin.

[Al Franken]

What is the coin? Is the coin.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Well, there's a meme coin, and then there's also. There's, like, many different iterations of ways in which Trump is trying to sort of profit off the presidency in varying. Different ways that are more expansive than his first term, but still sort of shockingly low. Despite being, I think, more fulsome in its corruption, they are still really shockingly low rent.

[Mark Leibovich]

For the record, by the way, Michael Dukakis had watches for his campaign.

[Al Franken]

Really was 1, $100,000?

[Mark Leibovich]

Well, it's interesting you ask. No, but I was up covering, I guess, the first Clinton campaign, and there was some, like, secondhand thrift store around Manchester, and they had a Michael Dukakis watch there on sale for, like, $5 or something. I think I still have it somewhere. And I'm guessing, I don't know, would you give me, like, 100,000 for.

[Al Franken]

Seems like a very different. Very different approach.

[Mark Leibovich]

It does, but I'm just saying there is a historic precedent for this. I mean, granted, he was not elected.

[Al Franken]

President, but, yeah, he would have gone to the 100,000 once he was in the White House. We've been hearing a lot from Musk, but everyone's favorite moment was when Trump tried to help him sell with Teslas.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Yeah, that was great.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

And that didn't work.

[Molly Jung Fast]

It seems the Tesla profits are down 71% from the earnings call last week, which, if you think about it, 71% is a lot. I'm not a car dealer, but that seems like a lot.

[Al Franken]

Now, here's another thing that Musk really cares about. The White House has been assessing ways to persuade women to have more children.

[Molly Jung Fast]

You know, can I just take this one for a minute, please? As someone who is a woman and has children, one of the things that is so stupid about this, if you don't cut Head Start, right? And all of the child care programs, you know, like, there's so many ways in which you could incentivize women to have children, and instead they're like, we're gonna give you a check for $5,000. And this is like, yet another Thing where Erdogan is clearly the inspiration here because he did baby bonuses. And there is no evidence that it works. It has literally not worked. The only place that it seems like it's starting to work to pay people to have children is South Korea. And that it's working. And it's a South Korea. Yeah. Wow. It's working. But it's only working because it is incentivized with tax incentives. You know, it's a full. It's a real package with tax incentives and babysitting and childcare. And the idea of just paying someone a one time flat fee of $5,000 shows a certain lack.

[Al Franken]

Well, like there are European countries where, like Norway, where they take care of the kid basically till they're six.

[Mark Leibovich]

Right.

[Molly Jung Fast]

But it does speak to Elon's. That Wall Street Journal piece about Elon and children.

[Al Franken]

What was that piece?

[Molly Jung Fast]

It was an incredible piece in the Wall Street Journal.

[Mark Leibovich]

Oh, yeah.

[Molly Jung Fast]

About his. Where he has built a legion of children. And that number that's reported is about 14, but the wall Street Journal postulates that the real number is probably closer to 40.

[Mark Leibovich]

Could you imagine how rich Musk would be if he got $5,000 for each of those? Maybe he's not doing it for money. Who knows?

[Al Franken]

Yeah, well, it's not in the United States.

[Mark Leibovich]

Cole can actually. Can I make one other point? I mean, yeah, there's a contradiction here. Have kids, but we're not going to pay for kids beyond the $5,000 lump payment. I mean, everything about these first hundred and three days, I mean, there is such an inherent contradiction to everything because we talk. You mentioned promoting or, you know, promoting Teslas on the lawn of the White House or at the White House or something. I think this was like within days of signing an executive order, like extremely hostile to electric vehicles or something like that. I mean, like, it is just like no one, I don't know, it's just like nothing is connected to anything else. It's just a bizarre kind of pattern of where you get a sense that no one's thought anything through here, if, if that's even thought about doing tariffs.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Pretty good example of something who's completely not thought. You know, we're going to onshore manufacturing. We're just not sure how.

[Al Franken]

I think the tariffs regime is probably the thing that has got him down into the 30s. Right.

[Molly Jung Fast]

That's the thing that's made his people the most hysterical, I think is crashing the economy for no reason.

[Al Franken]

And that's really what it did. I mean, he lost people there, right? That's it.

[Mark Leibovich]

He's losing people there. I mean, yeah, I mean, look, look, I mean that's another inherent contradiction. I mean his number one reason for being elected is to cut prices, right? This ain't doing that. Also, this is just the beginning. This is going to keep rolling as this thing starts to take effect and in inflation numbers, in consumer confidence numbers, and you know, the stock market's already taken a major hit.

[Al Franken]

How are his people not telling him you gotta, gotta do something about this right now because he's waiting. What? He's has a 90 day thing, right?

[Molly Jung Fast]

He has no people. His people are who? Stephen Miller, I mean Peter Navarro. I think the closest you have to his people are Scott Besant who has sort of as much as possible tried to get ahead of this. But there's gonna be a reckoning. I mean the markets are still kind of pumped up with this idea that Trump doesn't really mean it. But we're 75 days in. Peter Navarro told us we'd have 90 deals in 90 days. We do not have even one deal. Right. Then China reported that Trump had called them. Trump had said China was gonna call him.

[Al Franken]

Well, he said he's, he says he's already talked to Xi. Right, Right.

[Molly Jung Fast]

But then he hasn't. Well, who even knows, right? I mean there's, you know, are you gonna trust the Chinese government? Are you gonna trust Donald Trump? I mean there's not, there's no, you know, where. Who is the person here who we can like say is a reliable narrator?

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean that's true. I mean I think trust is an issue here. But I also the people pushing back theoretically could be Republic and Senate right now, obviously.

[Al Franken]

Well, haha.

[Mark Leibovich]

But I mean real Republicans as we all know them do not like tariffs. Like that is sort of a.

[Al Franken]

Well they don't like Trump. A lot of them, A lot of.

[Mark Leibovich]

Them don't like Trump. They tend to say so. But they can say we are free market, free trader, anti tariff, that's like a fairly safe position. But now they can't say that as easily.

[Molly Jung Fast]

I have a question about that. Okay, so you have four in the Senate who can. There are definitely four, Rand Paul, Murkowski, Collins and McConnell who will vote against tariffs.

[Mark Leibovich]

Correct.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Maybe you get it through the House.

[Mark Leibovich]

You're not getting it through the House because I don't think Johnson's gonna take it to the floor.

[Al Franken]

Johnson.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Okay, so say you can't get it through the House, but even if you could get it theoretically through the House, you don't have A majority to override a veto. So you're fucked. The only way to shut down the tariffs is this Koch brothers case that's winding its way towards the Supreme Court, the Leonard Leo Koch brothers case. And that, I think, really could take away the tariff power. I mean, the Supreme Court could take this power away from Trump, which he doesn't really have anyway.

[Al Franken]

How does he have it in the first place? Why?

[Molly Jung Fast]

He created an emergency. A fake emergency.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, there's been a few of those. Like. Yeah. On energy, on immigration, that kind of thing.

[Molly Jung Fast]

So if he. I mean, if the Supreme Court. And by the way, this is a case that's like, Leonard Leo, what is Tom, Are Thomas and Alito going to be like, sorry, Leonard Leo?

[Mark Leibovich]

No, it's true. I mean, you do see in Maine that. You'll see. Well, this is. I mean, there is quite a bit of splintering going on here. I mean, this is. What you just said is an example of it. But, I mean, if you look at even, like, Steve Bannon and. And Mosque Steven, I mean, like, you know, Joe Rogan and even, like, Alex Jones came out against these, like, these unlawful extraditions. Right. Which is bizarre. I would never have expected. Yeah.

[Al Franken]

If Alex Jones is with you, boy, you got something.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

We're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back with Molly Jung Fast and Mark Leibovich.

[Mark Leibovich]

At Hotels.com, we.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Know some travelers crave an ocean breeze. Others don't want to deal with sand. And oftentimes, those two people end up together. Compare properties side by side to find.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yourself poolside, oceanside, and still in a relationship. Find your perfect somewhere with hotels dot com.

[Al Franken]

Here are some other odd things. They're about to eliminate 988. They want to eliminate 988, which is a number you call. It's a suicide and crisis hotline for LGBT Q Youth.

[Molly Jung Fast]

It fits.

[Al Franken]

It fits. But it has received millions of contacts since it was launched in July of 2022.

[Molly Jung Fast]

I mean, they don't want to do anything that will be good for anyone.

[Mark Leibovich]

Who'S not that every vulnerable population is. I mean, that's what it fits, right? Totally. I mean, on what grounds? Just it's like, oh, it's a DEI thing. Like what?

[Molly Jung Fast]

It's too expensive. They're trying to save money from tax.

[Mark Leibovich]

How expensive is it? I mean, I don't know.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, Trump ordered the end of birthright citizenship. That's what he want. That was one of his planks. Right. And SCOTUS will be hearing this in a Couple weeks.

[Molly Jung Fast]

I think he's gonna. I think this is one he's not gonna get very far with.

[Al Franken]

Well, it's, it's actually in the Constitution.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Birthright, citizenship, but many things are in the Constitution, you know.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, but I mean, the Supreme. I mean, other than Alito and Thomas.

[Al Franken]

So it's a 7:2 vote, you think?

[Molly Jung Fast]

I think it's 9:0.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[Molly Jung Fast]

I think that crew. I mean, I could be wrong, and I'm certainly overly optimistic, but, you know, they had a 90 for due process.

[Mark Leibovich]

Mm.

[Al Franken]

This is on the. Yeah, Garcia.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Yeah. And. And that I think, I really do think, and I don't want to give him too much credit, I really don't. But I think there's a real sense in which the Supreme Court knows they have gone too far with Trump.

[Al Franken]

Let's dig into some stories that have stood out so far. The January 6th pardons.

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean, there are certain things you just forget about. No, you just take. They take your breath away when you sort of like a few months later, just sort of hold it up and remember it. Stunning.

[Al Franken]

Do MAGA people really feel that those people weren't violent?

[Mark Leibovich]

I don't know. I mean, it's so beyond defendable or, you know, by any kind of intellectually honest or, you know, person. It's, you know, it's just one of the more extreme cases. But stuff like that's happening on a much sort of smaller scale or larger scale, whatever. I mean, pretty regularly.

[Al Franken]

Tell me about Chris Krebs. Now. He was head of cyber security, and he was the one who said this was the most secure election we've ever had. Yeah, in the 2020 election.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. And now they are. I mean, his big sin is, you know, he basically has not said that the 2020 election was stolen. And now, I mean, basically Trump and Pam Bondi and so, I mean, they're investigating him. He lost his security clearance. He's losing all kinds of clearances. He's make. It's really hard for him to make a living now because. And also not to men, whatever. Harassment, the idea of being investigated, quote unquote, by the United States Justice Department with the full power of that whole department is. Is. It's incredibly disruptive. I mean, it's like potentially life ruining. Yeah. I mean, this is, I think, one of the most egregious abuses of power among many.

[Al Franken]

The inspectors general were fired, 17 of them. That has to be. Isn't. Weren't they doing the job that Doge kind of was supposed to be doing, like going after Waste, fraud, and abuse.

[Molly Jung Fast]

I think then he may end up having to rehire some of them. Or no. Or yes.

[Mark Leibovich]

It'S winding its way through.

[Molly Jung Fast]

The courts, that story. But yes. I mean, look, I think the top line on this is that Doge is not working and they have not saved much money. In fact, they've had to rehire a lot of people, though. Elon was able to send Those very stupid 5 things you did this week emails. You know, I just want to talk for one second about Elon Musk, because it does strike me here is a person where no one has ever told him that anything he's thought up is a bad idea. So it is like, the stuff, you know, he's, like, wearing two hats at the press conference, writing these emails to people in the federal government. Five things you did this week. I mean, it does strike me like he has no one around him who tells him the truth, ever.

[Mark Leibovich]

Trump, I guess. I mean, you know, basically, he and Trump share that profile, right? I mean, they both are. They have this elevated sense of entitlement, partly because they're, you know, they're narcissists, but also one of them's the president. One of them is the richest guy in the world. And, yeah, I mean, it is a type, right? And it just so happens that they've been sort of joined here.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Trump still seems a little less embarrassing than Elon. Like, Elon really comes up with just the. I mean, Trump comes up with dumb stuff, too, but it seems like Elon like the stuff he does with the chainsaw. Like, nobody ever says, you're gonna look like an asshole if you do this.

[Al Franken]

He isn't afraid of that, evidently. How about NIH again?

[Molly Jung Fast]

This is another thing that's winding its way through the courts. Elon decided that indirect grants. That he should cut the indirect funding grants for medical research to 15% because he didn't like the idea that institutions were getting more money than that. This is sort of interesting.

[Al Franken]

What does NIH do? The National Institutes of Health, National Institute.

[Molly Jung Fast]

For Health, and they have different grants. So say you're a scientist at Harvard. You get a grant for $25 million. You get indirect funding for 15% of that grant. Well, so it used to be 80% of that grant, which means you'd get certain amount for your grant and then a certain amount for indirect funding, which would mean the people work in your lab, your lab, your lab, your computers, your microscopes, your mice, the people who take it, you know, the whole thing. And Elon was very mad that these Indirect grants could be so much money. And he felt it wasn't fair. And he felt that they were giving money to Harvard. And Harvard was so greedy because it was so rich already. This is the richest guy in the world saying this, okay? Which I think is an important.

[Al Franken]

So this is about Harvard's money being cut twice. I mean, right?

[Molly Jung Fast]

So, well, these are the medical grants. But so he capped them at 15%, which meant if your laboratory, if you had a machine in your laboratory that cost whatever $50 million, you couldn't, you could only get it if it were 15%. I mean, it just so stupid. And what it did was it froze a lot of work and a lot of science. And then there are other grants that have been paused or unpaused. And once you start pausing grants again, you have these scientists who are euthanizing the lab animals, ending the trials because there's no space for just no money. Sorry everyone.

[Al Franken]

And NIH has come up with cures for stuff. And they do the basic research for a lot of pharmaceutical companies, cancer drugs.

[Molly Jung Fast]

And you know, something like 80% of these doctors, these scientists have been offered grants from other countries. So we're gonna lose, like we're gonna have the brain drain to end all brain drains. And what that's gonna mean is less scientific research coming out of the United States. It's also gonna mean less patents for institutions. It's gonna mean less wealth created for the country from drugs. I mean, like a lot of these laboratories have these scientists because they then get a piece of the patent pie. And now you're not gonna have that anymore. I mean, it is just like at every point the stupidest, shortest sighted kind of stuff. And by the way, if China gets a lot of these scientists, which they will try, you know, there's a real question there. I mean, it's just so bad.

[Mark Leibovich]

Can I ask a question? Because you've obviously, you're very smart on this. Say I'm a scientist sitting in New Jersey somewhere and I rely on a government grant through nih. That grant dries up and I do a little work and I find that the French government will just give me a grant. Right? Or something like that. First of all, what, what's wrong with that? I mean, it's like, it's obviously, it's French money instead of American money, but it's still money. Right. And your research presumably won't be affected at all, is it? I mean, does France see a benefit from being the giver of the grant or.

[Molly Jung Fast]

I mean, again, I think it's different for different contracts. But I think a lot of them really, they either build the lab for the scientists in their country or they own the patent.

[Mark Leibovich]

Right. So the intellectual property goes over.

[Molly Jung Fast]

And so that's why these deals are such good deals for the institutions. I mean, think about Rockefeller University, for example. That's a university with as many patents as some small. I think it has more Nobel prizes than would be like the third most Nobel prizes if it were a country. Okay. So they benefit from the patents. And, and I think that once you have French, I mean, I also do think they tend to want to take the laboratory, the scientists and the work to their country too, because there's a certain sovereignty to it.

[Al Franken]

I mean, NIH is, the pharmaceutical industry exists in large part because of NIH and the research that they do.

[Molly Jung Fast]

And if you want to like really go down the rabbit hole For a minute, RFK Jr. Has today he had this thing about how he's going to want placebos in the vaccine trials, even for vaccines that are safe and effective and have been on the market for years and years and years. And he said earlier this month that in September he's going to announce what causes autism. And anyone who's very.

[Al Franken]

He doesn't know by now.

[Molly Jung Fast]

No, in September he's going to know, but.

[Mark Leibovich]

Okay, he needs a little more time.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Alright. There's a real. I think there's a non zero chance that he announces the vaccines cause autism, even though we know that's not true. I think there's going to be even greater degrading of vaccine trust in this country and it's going to be cataclysmic. More cataclysmic.

[Al Franken]

We're going to take another quick break. We'll be right back with Molly Jung Fast and Mark Lipovich. And we are back with Mark Leibovich and Molly Jung Fast. Let's talk about fema. Trump wants to get rid of fema.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. I don't get that.

[Al Franken]

Me neither.

[Mark Leibovich]

Currently there are no natural disasters going on that I know about. I'm sure there's.

[Al Franken]

Well, there's certain tornadoes in Arkansas.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

Oh, really?

[Al Franken]

Yeah, it killed some people and Sanders.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Is trying to get money for it.

[Al Franken]

Sarah Huckabee Sanders, I bet she asked very nicely.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, okay, she did.

[Molly Jung Fast]

And Trump said he would and then Trump sort of backed out of it.

[Mark Leibovich]

I'm sure she'll make a big stink.

[Al Franken]

But I mean, the whole point of having FEMA is that they have resources. You don't want every state to have to have the amount of resources. You need for the worst kind of disaster. You want to have each state have resources for disasters. FEMA, there's like 10 FEMA locations across the country, some in the territories. And it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever if a disaster happens that we don't have FEMA step in.

[Mark Leibovich]

So who does he say is going to pick up the slack here? Just the states will handle it. Like he said with COVID it's like, well, you know, there's no federal response here. It's up to the states.

[Molly Jung Fast]

This is the Project 2025 stuff. Right. Like they want to get rid of NOAA National Ocean either.

[Mark Leibovich]

Right.

[Al Franken]

NOAA is the national oceanic and Atmospheric Agency.

[Molly Jung Fast]

And the thinking here is this is sort of like a libertarian fantasy, Koch Brothers kind of thing. Like why should the government give us stuff for free that we can make people pay for? Right. So government shouldn't do weather. Private companies should do weather. Government shouldn't do emergency response. That should be insurers. I mean, that's sort of, I think the thinking that gets you to a place where you, you decide that the government shouldn't do emergency response. What I don't think Republicans, if they've sort of thought this through on the long term, is like, why have a federal government?

[Mark Leibovich]

Well, that's sort of where they wanna be. That seems to be the logical extreme of a lot of this thinking.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Right, right. But here's the play. Okay, so say you get federalism just starts to fall apart. We see this happening in California, right, with Newsom. So Newsom, now he's like, well, maybe we shouldn' have the tariffs. Maybe we can negotiate our own tariffs. So why have, if you aren't getting anything from the federal government except them screwing you on trade? I mean, we're not there yet, but you could see how this would lead to that.

[Mark Leibovich]

Sure. So I'm also, although I'm fascinated by the idea that they can sort of privatize the FEMA functions. It's like, oh look, a hurricane. Let's call all state. It's like, oh, I wonder what the forecast is.

[Al Franken]

So what else have been bugging you?

[Mark Leibovich]

I have a, I have a topic that I think is, is under reported to go to the theme here. It's being flicked out a little bit, but tourism, okay. I mean, you see these stories about, you know, empty casinos in Las Vegas or national parks.

[Al Franken]

Is this just because Canadians aren't coming or is it because, I mean, they're.

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean this, this goes to a couple things. One, well, perhaps the US Economy, I Mean, maybe, maybe people are just like, not going. I mean, there are these tourist, very hyper, touristy places in the United States that rely extremely heavily, like Las Vegas. Like Las Vegas, New York, Florida national parks, that kind of thing. And apparently especially Vegas and National park, they're taking a major hit and will probably do more so in the spring and summer. And I think this goes across a number of lines here. One, tariffs. But two, just the idea that America, Donald Trump will make America respected around the world right now, I mean, that's always been a questionable premise, but it does seem like he has turned America into kind of an economic pariah. Not just as you follow it through the tariff story, but through just. It's a physical expression of the isolation or what. Isolationism reeks for an economy. And I just think that the ripples of that will go very, very far. But I also think it's emblematic of where this country seems to be headed or is now on a geopolitical and economic sense.

[Al Franken]

Let me ask you about something you're kind of an expert on. You had a number one New York Times bestseller. Thank you for your servitude.

[Mark Leibovich]

Thank you. Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. It was about how Republicans, Republican office holders kind of caved.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yes. Bend the knee. Any number of. Yeah. Slavish devotion.

[Al Franken]

That's still the case, isn't it?

[Mark Leibovich]

100%. I mean, much more so. I mean, you have a much more purified sort of reduction of loyalty. I mean, it's become even more cartoonish. Like, remember that Cabinet meeting in the first term, which became kind of iconic because, you know, you'd go all around the table and it'd be like very dear Leader. And it was ridiculous. That now happens seemingly every week with, I mean, and there's no, I mean, remember, like, Jim Mattis and maybe a couple others were kind of. You got the stink guy because it seemed like they were not playing along. But right now there's just no one who's not playing along.

[Al Franken]

There's no Jim Mattis's.

[Mark Leibovich]

No. And, and look, the John McCain's and the Bob Corkers and so forth have been replaced by the, I don't know, Tommy Tubervilles. And. But yeah, I mean, this is. It's just like the circle has just become that much more dense.

[Al Franken]

But every once in a while you get a Rand Paul.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

He has an ideology.

[Mark Leibovich]

He does. But I mean, where was that ideology when, I mean, his sort of libertarian small government approach was just sort of running rampant on so many sort. I mean, you know, the intrusiveness of the Trump government as far as investigating people and just the size of the footprint that Donald Trump is trying to sort of visit upon the country is something any libertarian should be horrified by. So I don't know why Brand Paul is choosing tariffs as the time to sort of put his foot down. But yeah, no, Rand Paul is definitely back to whatever purity he defined himself as having.

[Al Franken]

Maybe he just feels safe.

[Mark Leibovich]

Maybe, I mean, maybe that's the other thing. I mean, Trump doesn't have a lot of time on his side. I mean, pretty soon, especially if his poll numbers don't improve, the dreaded word, at least I assume in his own head, lame duck will start becoming more and more true. Because you know, usually second term presidents, just by virtue of them being term limited, I mean they lose a lot of power. And that's coming for Trump again, especially when he, it seems like he's going to make other Republicans vulnerable.

[Al Franken]

So do you think that Trump is going to fold on these tariffs anytime soon or is it, are we going to get the 90 days that are going to run out?

[Molly Jung Fast]

I mean, look, the thing is you have the biggest trade wars with China. Were you going to do this in a way that made any sense? You would have connected with Mexico and Canada and said let's be an alliance and renegotiate China, which is what a normal person would do. But instead he's can't get Japan, can't get South Korea, maybe can get India, maybe not, and has tried to get China. We still have these humongous China tariffs.

[Al Franken]

I mean since he called, since he called timeout, I don't think there's been a deal made with, has there been a deal made with any country yet?

[Molly Jung Fast]

But here's a question, actually I asked Andrew Ross Sorkin this today on Morning Joe and I said where are the 90 deals? And he said there's nothing so far. But what I think we're not talking about is, and I talked to somebody about this recently for my podcast, is that the ports, the port traffic in Los Angeles and the port of Long beach, two ports that mostly get from China, is down, you know, it's down 60% next week and you know, down 80% the week after. So eventually this stuff we will run out of the China made stuff that's already in the States and we will have a catastrophe. Right, right.

[Al Franken]

And this is stuff that's coming supposedly for Christmas and we're gonna have a.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Slow moving kind of COVID supply chain problem that's coming.

[Mark Leibovich]

Cuz it takes a while to unspool this stuff.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Right. So unless Trump decides to change his mind, this is where we're heading in two, three weeks. And then what happens which was inflationary, which happened during the pandemic and during the first Trump administration, is that it will become an inflationary thing, it'll become a stagflation thing. Well, eventually the question is, do we get to stagflation? And it's hard for me to see how we don't because there's no other off ramp.

[Mark Leibovich]

Wait, Molly, can you to play the moron here? What is the difference between stagflation versus inflation?

[Molly Jung Fast]

So inflation means things are more expensive. Stagflation means things are more expensive and you're in a recession. And that's what happened in the 1980s, the early 70s, late 70s and early 80s. So the problem is when you get into stagflation, you can't lower interest rates because it makes inflation worse. So that would be what you would do to get out of a recession. But you can't do that. And then you can't raise interest rates because that makes things more expensive. So you have no tools.

[Al Franken]

Volcker's tool was to raise, keep them high and he did that during Carter and Carter, that's why Carter had no chance in 80.

[Molly Jung Fast]

And it was a shock to the economy. It cut growth and it was very hard to get out of. Part of what Biden world was so worried about was stagflation, which now Trump with the trade war has just is like almost signing the warrant for because so like if you look at those numbers yesterday, his approval numbers is what you know, I'm thinking about the growth numbers. It was a negative point.

[Mark Leibovich]

It was tiny. Yeah, it was bad.

[Molly Jung Fast]

And part of it, it was because of all the imports. But what it showed, I think is that there's consumer anxiety, there's corporate anxiety. That means that people aren't spending money and it means that businesses aren't expanding or buying things. And that is very likely gets you start to the start of a recession. And so I think you're going to have a recession and then you're going to have inflation and then Trump is going to scream at the Fed to lower interest rates because he doesn't understand how this works. And then if he lowers interest rates, things get more inflationary and then I don't know what you do.

[Mark Leibovich]

Can I ask you. Okay, this is a little, I want to, I'm curious what you guys think of this. I mean, what is the best way for Democrats or for people who don't like the way this is going to message around what is being done to the economy, to the country and so forth.

[Al Franken]

I mean, well, here's the thing. When you think about how low his approval ratings are, what are the Democrats approval rating? They're lower.

[Mark Leibovich]

Lower as a party. Yeah, 30. I saw a poll, Georgia, the Democratic party has a 35% approval rating. Trump himself is 43 or something now. Trump, 43 in Georgia, by the way, for Trump is quite low. I mean it's. I think he got probably in the 50s right for. In the election in Georgia or something close to it.

[Molly Jung Fast]

But I can tell you right now why the Democratic numbers are bad is because of stuff like what happened yesterday where Congress said he's dropping out of leadership, he's not gonna run again. And then all of these very old people were like, we're not giving it to aoc, we're not giving it to Jasmine Crockett. We're not giving ranking an oversight to someone who can communicate. What about this one who's 77, this one who's 83? I mean, I saw a tweet from the Daily Caller, you saw this, where Eleanor Holmes Morgan or whatever her name is, wants to be the. Yeah, she wants to be ranking on oversight. She's 85.

[Mark Leibovich]

But here's the question though, like, would an anonymous old, like many term Democrat chairing the Rules Committee? I mean if AOC were just given the Rules Committee, right? I mean, what would the approval rating like across the country be there, right?

[Molly Jung Fast]

Here's the thing. It's not so much a question of what she's gonna do, it's a question of what she's gonna be able to track transmit, right? Nobody knows Gerry Connolly. When Gerry Connolly speaks, nobody gives a fuck because nobody knows who the fuck that is. Excuse my French. When aoc, she has the complaint, all of the polling complaints are like, why aren't they doing anything now? There's not a ton they can do.

[Mark Leibovich]

Well, they can do what they're doing, which is rallies.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Right, Right. But the part of that is that they're just not transmitting that they're doing stuff because nobody looks at press releases from Gerry Connolly's office. Do not get rad on Main Street.

[Mark Leibovich]

Right? But part of it is that they're in the minority and Trump and Republicans in general control the news cycle.

[Molly Jung Fast]

But again, when Trump was in the minority, he was still doing public. Remember, compare the amount of media that Donald Trump is doing right now to the amount of media that Joe Biden did.

[Mark Leibovich]

I Think Joe Biden's absence was a terrible mistake on his part. His. I mean, I think, you know, I.

[Al Franken]

Wonder what caused that.

[Mark Leibovich]

I wonder. You know, I. Well, no, I mean, it's like he. I mean, Trump himself, I mean, one of his clear lessons is you people like ubiquity in their presidents in some form. Right. I mean, it's just they want you out there. And Biden forfeited that for whatever reason, or maybe he was, you know, kept away from that.

[Molly Jung Fast]

But you can't ever have. I mean, Democrats can't ever do that again. No, if they accept. I mean, that was the biggest. That is the original sin of how we got here.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

That and the fact that Biden was too old. But that's a whole other thing.

[Molly Jung Fast]

One of the other big mistakes in Biden world was saying that the inflation was transitory and trying to say like, which it turned out to be. But people don't like it when you say that what they're upset about isn't real. Now we have Donald Trump doing exactly the same thing, which I think is a little bit interesting.

[Al Franken]

Well, the thing is, is that we had 9.1% inflation. And then if you say, well, inflation's going to go down. It was one month. Right, Right. And then it goes down. But if it goes down to 6 or it goes down to 5, or it goes down to 2, it's still inflation. And people thought that, oh, I thought we were going to end inflation and we're going to get. People thought prices would go. They thought an egg would go down to what it was before the 9.1%. And now, of course, price of eggs is what?

[Molly Jung Fast]

Eggs?

[Al Franken]

The price of an egg.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Is a dollar now, but no. And that happened because of avian flu.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Yeah. But we have solved a lot of those pandemic problems by no longer testing or whatever is happening at the. I mean, you know, they've cut like things that are going to eventually go off in the third act. Right. Like they've cut food safety stuff.

[Al Franken]

Right.

[Molly Jung Fast]

There's no world in which this stuff doesn't eventually bite us all in the ass.

[Mark Leibovich]

Right. And by the way, when it happens, it'll all be Biden's fault. You see that Trump is blaming the economy and the stock market now. He is.

[Al Franken]

Now, now this was.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, it's all Biden's fault.

[Molly Jung Fast]

At least he knows that. It's absolutely happening. That's something for Trump.

[Al Franken]

Has Trump done anything good?

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah, I'm sure he has. He's rallied the Democratic base Yeah, that's true. There are actually a couple things. Let's see. Well, he hasn't said this, but theoretically, you know, there's talk that there could be higher taxes on the super rich.

[Al Franken]

Well, that's what he's not doing.

[Mark Leibovich]

This is going to be.

[Al Franken]

We're making all these cuts. Doge is making all these cuts so that we can have a tax cut.

[Mark Leibovich]

Here are a couple. Okay. So this is just right. Okay. So Steve Bannon, I mean, there are a couple things he's been saying that he's not Trump, but he has sort of gone to war on the tech billionaires. Right. Bannon's, like, big thing is to, like, you know, the Silicon Valley thing. I mean, he's been very outspoken about musk. I mean, that's been true from the start.

[Al Franken]

Well, one. One of the things that I've been thinking about is just how low Trump can go.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Wow.

[Al Franken]

And if. If we have this situation where there's no. There's nothing for Christmas.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. Two dolls instead of, what, 40? What was that thing you said yesterday?

[Molly Jung Fast]

Yeah, but those dolls are going to be more expensive. People love it when you make things more expensive. So, I mean, looking forward to watching this play out.

[Al Franken]

Well, that's why you can only get two dolls.

[Molly Jung Fast]

That's right.

[Mark Leibovich]

Two.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Very expensive.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. So while you can't afford Christmas presents, at least he's made it safe for people to say Merry Christmas.

[Molly Jung Fast]

That's right, because nobody ever said Merry Christmas when we had white people shattered.

[Mark Leibovich]

Every time I wished people Merry Christmas during the Biden years, I got shot down.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Yeah.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. It was really scary. Yeah.

[Al Franken]

So we only have 1300 days left flying by.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Boy, oh, boy, they packed so much into everything, haven't they?

[Mark Leibovich]

I mean. Yes. I mean, the other. Okay. Another thing that can be learned from Trump is that the constant illusion of activity can be very powerful. Like you hear a lot of these focus group people say, and still there's quite a few of them that say, well, look, he's doing something. At least he's doing something now, you know, that sort of goes to, like, the executive order things he's doing, which basically amount to press releases. Yeah, it's. It's. I mean, they. Yeah, they're right. I mean, but his legislative record is in so much as there is such a thing. I mean, they've done nothing.

[Al Franken]

Nothing.

[Molly Jung Fast]

I like that he does executive orders targeting specific people. I feel like that is something we have not seen in previous president. He's classy. It's elegant. I hope to see More of it.

[Al Franken]

What is it? I'm sorry.

[Molly Jung Fast]

He sees executive orders where he targets specific people that really annoy him. Chris Krebs.

[Mark Leibovich]

Krebs, yeah.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Mark Elias. You know, so clearly, like, what I love about this presidency, and perhaps the one good thing it's done is it is really. It's the resentment presidency. Right. Like, my man has a lot of complaints. He is the old man, the get off my lawn guy, and he is using the government to pretty much go after people he doesn't like.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Yep.

[Mark Leibovich]

I don't think that's good.

[Molly Jung Fast]

No. I think it's probably bad.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah. I don't think it's good.

[Molly Jung Fast]

No.

[Al Franken]

What's the most destructive thing? Most destructive thing he's done?

[Molly Jung Fast]

Airline safety stuff.

[Mark Leibovich]

Well, that's most visible. But, I mean, like, think of the lives that have probably already been lost because of the USAID stuff.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Three million year that. My husband's obsessed with that.

[Mark Leibovich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

That's the richest man killing the poorest people in the world.

[Mark Leibovich]

Correct.

[Molly Jung Fast]

But he's doing the. You know, he's doing it for a tax cut.

[Mark Leibovich]

There's also. I mean, there is this, like, angry mob out there. I mean, people are terrified like, that. The government. Just the psychic toll it takes to know that the government can come after you and you have no defense, except for, you know, the Constitution, which they may or may not be following, let alone, you know, court rulings. And for it, it's a big. I think, you know, you can't really quantify it. But the psychic toll of all this is very, very, very high. And I don't think we sort of know what it looks like and know how it will age, but, yeah, you certainly feel it around. Well, Washington, D.C. obviously, is ground zero for it, but I think people are feeling it in ways that they don't fully comprehend yet.

[Al Franken]

Well, Molly and I are up in.

[Molly Jung Fast]

New York, so, yes, if we're good.

[Mark Leibovich]

The real America.

[Molly Jung Fast]

Yeah, the real America. Real America. Real American Jews, the ten of us. But, yes. No, I think that's bad. It's not bad.

[Al Franken]

All right, you guys. Thank you.

[Mark Leibovich]

Thanks, Al.

[Al Franken]

Okay, everybody, Goodbye. Well, I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kottke, the great Leo Kottke. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next week.

[Molly Jung Fast]

If you like the Al Franken Podcast, you can listen to all episodes ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.