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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Hey, everybody. We got a great one today. And this time, this time, I. I mean it. Norm Ornstein is my guest. If you've listened to this podcast over the years, you know Norm, political scientist and emeritus scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and a good friend of the show and. And of the host. We recorded this on Friday morning, and the show drops on Sunday. So it's very possible that the government shutdown is over because both sides realize how damaging this is to the country and came to a compromise restoring the ACA subsidies so the 24 million Americans won't see a doubling of their health care premiums. Or probably not. Republicans don't care about that. Norm and I discuss the shutdown and the fact that this isn't just about health care premiums, but about the autocratic regime Americans are already under. Trump and OMB head Russell Vogt are. They're sick. It seems they are intent on punishing blue states, canceling $8 billion in funding for renewable energy projects in 16, almost all blue states. And $18 billion from New Jersey and New York for crucial infrastructure projects. I don't remember Democratic administrations doing that sort of thing during shutdowns. And Trump and BOAT are talking about picking up from Doge and firing a lot more federal workers. The line gets to me. J.D. vance keeps saying that Democrats want to spend billions of dollars giving undocumented immigrants emergency health care at hospitals. And you know what? That's not true. But if an undocumented immigrant came to an emergency room and needed emergency care, they'd get it. That's what Jesus would do. And medical professionals who don't want sick folks spreading infections or accident victims dying. Well, Norm and I discuss all this, plus other events of the week. Peace in Gaza. Hmm, Maybe. Hopefully the Comey indictment and the Hegseth Trump show for the admirals and generals. It is a great one, you know, for a change. Well, Norm, it's great to have you.
- [03:03]
B
Back and happy anniversary. Al, I think we ought to start by noting that we just had your 50th anniversary with Franny. Why don't you, at least for a moment, tell the story about how you met?
- [03:19]
A
Oh, okay. Well, we met in college at a mixer. I think it was the first week of college. And she went to Simmons, and I went to school in. I went to school in Boston, and I saw her across the room, and she's beautiful. And I like the way she was. She was organizing the other girls to leave, and I liked the way she was taking charge. So I went up and I Asked her to dance. And we danced. And I got her a ginger ale. The mixer was near her college Simmons. And so I offered to walk her to her dorm. And then we made a date. And my daughter wrote it up as my dad, because there she was like, I don't know, in second grade or something, was asked, how do your parents meet? And she wrote, my dad asked my mom to dance, bought her a drink and took her home. And so the teacher called Franny and asked that was okay. We said it's okay. It was true. We don't want us to change. So that was a long time ago. So we got a lot to talk about this week. Did you see that Trump just gave an ultimatum to Hamas just a few minutes ago? Said if Hamas doesn't agree to this proposal by Sunday evening, by 6pm, all hell like no one has ever seen before will break out.
- [04:57]
B
And, you know, since things have been going so well in Gaza, I'm sure that that threat will be received with deep trepidation by Hamas. What's interesting here, Al, just to step back for a minute. Trump ran by saying, this time I will end the war with Ukraine, that Russia is Russia's invasion of Ukraine. On my first day, I will solve the Middle East. And he's going around now, as he did most recently in his unhinged talk to our military leaders put together by the embarrassing and vile Pete Higseth. But you know that he has ended seven wars since he returned to the presidency. Of course, it's all part of his pitch to win a Nobel Peace Prize. And the Nobel Committee, to its great credit, said, no way will this guy ever get any prize. And it's of course, a bunch of lies. But he is deeply frustrated that every time he tries to cut a deal, whether it's with Putin or Netanyahu, much less Hamas, he is spurned. And so he looks weak. So this is another effort so that he can do a victory lap over what's happening in the Middle East.
- [06:18]
A
Well, we hope he succeeds, of course. I mean, we hope do.
- [06:21]
B
And actually, to his credit, or at least to the credit of those who put it together, that was his son.
- [06:27]
A
In law and Tony Blair, right?
- [06:29]
B
Yeah. And it's Tony Blair in particular. Yeah, you know it is. Hamas will release all the hostages. We will have a pullback from Israel. We will govern Gaza with a multinational force, mostly consisting of other Arab countries.
- [06:46]
A
And Hamas would have to disarm and.
- [06:49]
B
And Hamas disarm and not play a role in governance. And the Palestinian Authority will have some modest role. But what we also know is that while Netanyahu signed onto this plan, his coalition, including the thuggish extremists like Ben GVIR and Smotrich, have denounced it. And there are all kinds of reports that if somehow it happened, Bibi will find a way to undermine it.
- [07:15]
A
Well, he agreed to it at the White House, right? He agreed to it, and he does that. And then when he goes back to.
- [07:20]
B
Israel, he backs out or finds a way to undermine it. And so I do not take Trump's comments any more seriously than I do most of Trump's comments.
- [07:34]
A
Is there any chance of. I think part of the plan is that the Palestinian Authority, after some reforms, would run Gaza. Is that part of the plan?
- [07:48]
B
I think the plan is that for the foreseeable future, which could be a very, very long time, we will have forces, and not just military forces, but including a lot of civilians who have been involved in governance from other Arab countries. And that means Saudi Arabia and the Emirates and, you know, others who would get involved, who would be the main governing force, and the Palestinian Authority would play a role. But the fact is the Palestinian Authority has no leadership capacity at the moment. Mahmoud Abbas is a joke and, of course, is, you know, nearing the end anyhow. The idea is that over a period of time, there would be a better, less corrupt, more competent group who could run it. You know, one of the problems we have, Al, is that the Palestinian leaders, who would actually be non corrupt and strong enough to be able to govern, are in Israeli prisons and are not likely to be released anytime soon. So it's a question of whether some homegrown Palestinians can emerge. But what we also know is that Israel, not just Israel, you know, with the Trump administration, it's all about the grift. And we've got Trump and the people around him, including his negotiators, talking about turning Gaza into a Trump beachfront resort.
- [09:20]
A
Well, this is different. This plan is very different from that plan. That was a crazy plan. It was gonna be the Riviera of the Mediterranean, right? Yeah.
- [09:30]
B
But what we also know is that what Bibi has been doing in Gaza, not just killing civilians, and in some cases, it certainly appears that they've deliberately targeted journalists and others. But what they're doing on the west bank, it's just unspeakable. And if this plan ended that and they somehow got an agreement, I would applaud Donald Trump for it. But you have to be skeptical that any of these parties.
- [10:00]
A
How weak is Hamas now?
- [10:01]
B
I mean, look, Hamas is weaker, but we know that despite everything that the Israelis have done, including the bombing, including the troops on the ground, they still have tunnels, they still have fighters, they still have leaders. We're still seeing Israeli forces, the idf, with soldiers being killed or, you know, having limbs taken out with explosive devices. So they're far from done. And even though a lot of their leaders have been taken away, there are plenty left over. They are not going to give up at this point. And what they also believe is that the more Palestinian civilians are killed by Israel, the more it serves their long term purpose, which is to utterly delegitimize Israel and give them an opportunity eventually to destroy the country entirely. So I don't believe you're not optimistic.
- [11:02]
A
It sounds.
- [11:03]
B
I'm not optimistic. Well, you know, anybody who's ever been optimistic about the Middle east is disappointed.
- [11:10]
A
Okay, well, let's go to the shutdown now. Speaking of optimism, as we speak, we're talking on Friday. This is the third day I'm concerned about this. I mean, the basis is for this, right? The liberal base, Democratic base. And they were mad at Schumer for not doing this in March.
- [11:32]
B
Yeah. I think there is this broader sense with all of the outrageous things that Trump and his cultists have done that Democrats have not fought back. And that's particularly true of Senate Democrats and of Schumer. And you see all kinds of ridicule of Schumer and his counterpart in the House, Hakeem Jeffries, talking about how, what adjectives should we use? Are we appalled? Are we disgusted? Are we frustrated instead of acting? So there's this strong sense that Democrats need to use the tools available to them. And if they had given in this time getting nothing in return, gone for any kind of a continuing resolution which would have enabled the huge cuts in Medicaid.
- [12:24]
A
Well, there was the trillion dollars in Medicaid from the big beautiful bill that happened after March, of course. And that affects, of course, lots Trump voters, too, as well.
- [12:35]
B
Yep.
- [12:36]
A
And then of course, the race of the ACA subsidies.
- [12:40]
B
Yeah.
- [12:41]
A
Which are going to double the premiums of 24 million Americans.
- [12:47]
B
Yeah, double or more. So my, I have, you know, frankly, back in March, I wrote a column calling for them to do a shutdown for this reason that far too many Americans were unaware of, how radical and extreme and dangerous Trump and his people were. And we needed to do something dramatic to bring a focus to the many, many millions, maybe, you know, 15 or 20% of Americans who just don't follow this stuff and weren't going to get it from the media. And they didn't do it then, they did it now. And I would say this, Al, I actually think this is going to work for Democrats either way. Either at some point the pain being inflicted redounds back to Trump and Republicans and they decide to cut a deal to ameliorate significantly the impact of these horrific cuts affecting health care, or at some point it will get so bad, with all of the manipulative things that they're doing illegal in many cases, that what Democrats have done and what they need to do every day, over and over, every one of them and every avenue possible is to focus on why they have not allowed Republicans to go forward with these cuts. It's a simple message. They want to take away your health care. We won't let them. And what that means is that if they eventually end up having to give in and these cuts take effect, at least Americans are going to know who's responsible for it. If they had not done a shutdown and if they'd said we just can't because they're going to bring all these horrors upon us of firing people, of dismantling the rest of government. And then we'd seen rural hospitals closing, other hospitals overrun because there were fewer opportunities, people losing their health care and all of the other things happening, the Republican wind machine would have said, hey, it's not us. They're the ones responsible. And now it's going to become far more clear, however the shutdown ends, that it's Republicans who are taking away health care for tens of millions of Americans and wreaking havoc on those who still have health care but can't get into an emergency room because many of the.
- [15:20]
A
Hospitals have closed, and especially rural hospitals and lots of places where there are red boaters who are MAGA people. And we'll see the effect of that. Okay, we're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back with Norm Ornstein. I love to sleep. I love to get a good seven to nine hours every night. And I found out what really helps is a good bed with good sheets and a good pillow. And there's enough in the world to keep you up at night. Your bedding shouldn't be one of them. That's why I'd like to tell you about Ghostbed. Ghostbed is a family run company focused on quality and comfort and cooling, all in an effort to help people like you and me sleep better. Their mattresses are made from premium materials to help regulate temperature throughout the night so that you don't wake up Overheated and they're built to last. Backed by a 20 to 25 year warranties. You also get 100 one night sleep trial to make sure that it's the right fit for you. And here is the best part. Ghostbed mattresses cost up to 50% less than comparable brands. So you're getting real quality at a fair price. I've gotten to check out their great bedding. The Ghost sheets are made of Supima cotton with Tencel fibers specially designed to keep you cool at night while also prioritizing durability and resisting allergens and bacteria growth. The Ghost pillow is a memory foam pillow that promotes cooling. Right now during Ghostbed's fall sale, you can get 25% off site wide for a limited time. Just go to ghostbed.com Franken and use promo code Franken at checkout. That's ghostbed.com Franken promo code Franken. Upgrade your sleep with Ghostbed, the makers of the coolest beds in the world. And we are back with Norm Ornstein. It's just, I'm just trying to figure out how this plays out because while this is happening, it feels like Vogt, Russell Vogt, the OMB head is exploiting this to get rid of federal employees to re up what was happening during Doge. And that Trump likes us.
- [18:06]
B
Oh yeah. But he's also, Vaught has even up to now canceled programs and contracts illegally.
- [18:16]
A
Yeah, well, I want to ask you about that because this is illegal. He's cut off, what, $18 billion to New Jersey and New York on infrastructure. The Allen Tunnel rail project and a subway project and $8 billion on renewable energy to basically take away from blue states. And that's not legal. I mean, that stuff was appropriated by Congress. Right?
- [18:43]
B
It was appropriated by Congress. There are valid contracts. He's breaching contracts. It's utterly illegal. You know, at the same time, he cannot fire employees because of a shutdown. The law is very clear that you can furlough people. The president has some significant discretion during a shutdown. Nobody gets paid to decide which are essential services, meaning that the employees still have to come to work even though they won't get paid. And now in the law, it is that they will get back pay when eventually the shutdown ends that you can furlough others in non essential areas. And certainly he has some leeway to wreak havoc by saying things that Democrats view as essential are non essential, but he cannot fire people. That also is illegal. And I'm hoping that what will happen here is that we will get a bunch of lawsuits that will reverse these practices, even though we know what Trump will do is to bring an emergency decree to the Supreme Court, which will do perhaps another shadow docket thing. Although to allow these things to go forward is itself violating the law and the Constitution. But we have six justices who seem to do that with impunity. But we may be able to stop a lot of the worst things that Russell Vaught is trying to do and Trump applauds. We should just note over and over, people are going to die as a consequence of some of the things that they're doing now during a shutdown. And these are people who still call themselves pro life. They are not pro life.
- [20:31]
A
I mean, we're talking about, you know, getting rid of all this healthcare. I mean, if the subsidies for the aca, you know, the subsidized ACA policies, if those subsidies go away, it doubles the premiums for millions and millions of people, and many people will not be able to afford health care. As you're right, people will die.
- [20:58]
B
You know, let's note that one of the big lies that Trump, Mike Johnson, John Thune, and others in the cult have perpetrated over this is Democrats want to take a trillion dollars to give to illegals to get them health care. One, it's utterly false. The law prohibits undocumented people in America from having access to Medicaid or Medicare or other government programs.
- [21:31]
A
If an undocumented person goes to an emergency room. Right.
- [21:35]
B
That's a different matter under the law. But not to go to an emergency room because you've got a hangnail or even a broken toe, if you are bleeding to death or in a dire position, America has the right to go to an emergency room to provide emergency care. Once people are stabilized, if they are undocumented, they have to leave. Now, is this just because of giving undocumented, or as they call them, illegal people free health care? No, it is not just because of the fundamental decency that we don't want people bleeding to death on the street. We also don't want people who might have contagious diseases that could be deadly from just walking around out there and infecting others, because they don't have access to that.
- [22:32]
A
That's a good point.
- [22:34]
B
Yeah. And so it was for the broader public interest as well as for human dec. But they're lying about it over and over again. And unfortunately, far too many of our journalists, when they bring these people on the airwaves, don't effectively challenge them, or at least don't Say you are lying.
- [22:55]
A
And it is a lie.
- [22:58]
B
It's a lie.
- [22:59]
A
And that's one advances. And it says it's billions and billions of dollars spent on this.
- [23:06]
B
Vance is a serial liar. Mike Johnson is a serial liar. Both of them are embarrassments to the positions that they hold and the oaths of office that they took.
- [23:17]
A
Well, I think, you know, one of them is in line to be our next Republican nominee for president, and the.
- [23:26]
B
Other one is next in line after the vice president to become president if something happened to Trump and event.
- [23:35]
A
Oh, boy. But Republicans are saying, you know, just pass this and we'll, we'll address the ACA subsidies later.
- [23:44]
B
Yeah. And of course, that is one after all, the subsidies have disappeared and people are facing unsustainable increases in their premiums. But it's also after all the, those Medicaid cuts that they call Medicaid reform, but our Medicaid cuts take effect. So it's not just about the ACA subsidies. It's about much broader ripple effects in the healthcare system. And remember, our healthcare system, everything is intertwined. You know, we had an instance last year where a hospital in Atlanta closed. It was the hospital that was taking care of poor people, and they just couldn't sustain it. They weren't getting enough revenue. The problem was not just that that hospital closed. Every other hospital in Atlanta suddenly faced a huge problem because their emergency rooms were overloaded with the people who could no longer go to the hospital that closed. And that meant that people who had insurance, if you had to go to the emergency room, they had long waits. And it also meant that those hospitals had to take care of people, were not getting the revenue and were themselves in great fiscal danger. So all of this has a ripple effect. It affects everybody because of the nature of our healthcare system.
- [25:06]
A
Let me ask you about. Go back to this idea of firing federal workers.
- [25:13]
B
Yeah.
- [25:14]
A
Is this legal?
- [25:16]
B
No, it's completely illegal. Many of the workers who've already been fired have filed lawsuits with this shutdown. We have lawsuits that have already been filed by the major public employee unions at the federal level. My friend and sometime collaborator, Norm Eisen, with his group Democracy Defenders, has an army of terrific lawyers taking this on. It's completely illegal. Civil servants can be fired, but they have protections. You have to go through a process. They've had many instances already where DOGE stepped in and fired people claiming they were incompetent when they had done nothing, and where they were dealing with employees who'd been just recently given commendations for sterling service. These are illegal acts done by radicals. And if we're lucky, at least courts will step in and block them from doing this.
- [26:18]
A
And where is that? Does that end up in the rocket docket and the Supreme Court?
- [26:24]
B
What the Supreme Court has done insidiously, and I suppose at some level you could call it cleverly, is on this shadow docket, they've said in instances where people have been fired, one great recent example, which is a violation of the existing Supreme Court standard in law, they said, well, Trump can fire a Democrat on the Federal Trade Commission, Humphrey's executor, which is a Supreme Court ruling that goes back to the FDR era, where FDR fired a federal trade commissioner. And the court said, no, you can't do that without due process, and this is somebody in an independent regulatory agency. The court said, well, this is only temporary until it goes through the normal process. But once you've fired, they're fired, and whether they're going to be able to come back in what will take months. And in the meantime, the Federal Trade Commission is operating in a fashion without that voice. And of course, the court has now said that they're going to take up the whole idea of Humphreys executor, and very likely they're going to say that on every independent regulatory commission, with the possible exception of the Federal Reserve, that the unitary executive can fire anybody, even if they were under the law, given a fixed term.
- [27:48]
A
Speaking of the Federal Reserve, Trump wants to get rid of Lisa Cook, who he said violated a law by a mortgage thing where she said that both her mortgages were for her first home. And that doesn't seem to be true, or at least she says it isn't.
- [28:09]
B
Well, it's not just what she says. We know that Bill Pulte, who was in charge of the housing mortgage operation, has been on a war against Democrats, including charging Adam Schiff and others of mortgage.
- [28:28]
A
Letitia James.
- [28:30]
B
Letitia James. He referred Lisa Cook for criminal prosecution to the Justice Department. And not only was that outrageous, but it was an utter violation, because what we know from the mortgage documents for Lisa Cook, almost every mortgage, when you go to get it, has this sort of, you know, standard language. The language says it's a primary residence. What Lisa Cook did was to buy a home and then buy a vacation property in Georgia and said explicitly on that mortgage form that this was a vacation home, not a primary residence. So she violated no standard and no law, and he distorted this, and he is an evil, evil lawless character. Doing Trump's dirty seems pretty cut and.
- [29:24]
A
Dry, though, doesn't it?
- [29:25]
B
Is. It's absolutely cut and dried. And, you know, one of the things I would love to see House Democrats do is use the impeachment process to highlight what some of these awful people are doing. An impeachment resolution brought to the House is privileged. Mike Johnson can't keep it from coming to the House. I know it's a dirty word. And it was misused by Republicans against Alejandro Mayorkas, then the Secretary of Homeland Security, just to score political points. If you bring impeachment resolution to the floor against RFK Jr. For all the terrible things that he's doing, if you brought an impeachment resolution against Bill Pulte for violating his office and misusing it for political purposes, at minimum, you get a debate on the House floor. You can highlight this for most Americans who don't pay any attention to it. And it might be, if you're going to force House Republicans, for example, to say, no, we'll keep RFK Jr. In office, they're saying they're fine with blowing up vaccines, with taking away research on pediatric cancer and on Alzheimer's and with all the other horrible things that are being done. Make them take a stand. Maybe a few of them will actually vote. And you would impeach them and then let the Senate have a debate about that.
- [30:50]
A
Well, the president supports him. The president told women not to take Tylenol if they, you know, Kennedy has selected the people who decide what vaccines Americans take. He selected groups that believe that these vaccines cause autism. It's a very scary situation.
- [31:07]
B
It is, because we're talking about the fundamentals here. And we know that we're seeing measles outbreaks now in Minnesota along with other states, because kids are not getting vaccinated. And we know that some have died as a result. In Texas, we know that we have outbreaks of whooping cough and people have died from that. God knows when polio will come back. And of course, we still have deadly variants of COVID and the likelihood of other viruses emerging. And they've taken away the capacity of people to be protected. You know, even with COVID And of course, another great irony here, Trump. You know, it takes me back to the what Ronald Reagan once said about his White House in disarray, that sometimes the right hand doesn't know what the far right hand is doing. You had Trump yesterday bring in the CEO of Pfizer and laud him for the great work on his COVID vaccine, even as it is being blown up, attacked by Kennedy, by Kennedy. And what Kennedy and his panel have done is to basically throw in all kinds of hurdles, even for seniors where, you know, it's recommended for those over 65. I know here in the District of Columbia, they've said you need to have a doctor's prescription to get the COVID vaccine, which means a lot of people are not going to have access to it. They've made it much more difficult and probably more costly. Insurance companies now may be able to deny paying for a COVID vaccine because it's not recommended for the particular age group. And we're going to have consequences from this.
- [32:57]
A
In some states, if you're under 65 and you're not have some kind of serious condition, you can't get your shot.
- [33:07]
B
Right. And you can't, you know, in some instances it may be you can't even get a prescription to do it.
- [33:14]
A
Let's talk about Comey for a second.
- [33:18]
B
Yeah.
- [33:21]
A
This seems to be the epitome of authoritarianism. I mean, he wants to go after Letitia James, he wants to go after Schiff, he wants to go after all these different people for the only reason which he stated, which is he's going to go after his enemies. Right.
- [33:42]
B
You know, the irony here is that Trump lies over and over and over, but the one instance in which he told the truth is when he ran for president, this time saying his would be an administration of retribution. And now they are doing selective prosecution of their political enemies, which is unconstitutional and illegal. I start by saying I have no great sympathy, much less affection for Jim Comey. We might never have had Donald Trump as president if it weren't for what Comey did.
- [34:22]
A
I said, I said this to him at a session in the Senate. Yes. If why he, he did that, I'll.
- [34:29]
B
Never say, you know, very self righteous, but he is as responsible as anybody for Hillary Clinton's loss. Okay, put, take that down there. Having said that, this is punitive to the extreme in bringing an indictment against him. We know that a grand jury refused to indict him on most counts, that the then U.S. attorney said and all the people in the Justice Department, there are no grounds for an indictment here. Trump brought in an utterly unqualified person to be the acting U.S. attorney whose major qualification was that she had competed in one of his beauty pageants, never tried a case, has no experience as a prosecutor. It turns out now that the appointment a judge was illegal.
- [35:25]
A
Her job in the administration was going to the Smithsonian and making sure that the art and stuff was not to woke.
- [35:32]
B
Yes, exactly. So, and, and, and didn't have anything to support any history that involved people of color. But having said that, it now appears that she was an illegal appointee and therefore that bringing the indictment was illegal. But what we also know is that the judge who took the indictment said, you've got two pieces of paper here that are completely contradictory. In one case, you say there are no grounds for an indictment. In the other, you say that there are. What's going on? And she said, well, I only signed the one. He said, no, you sign both. So she is farcically incompetent. And there's no doubt that this indictment will either be dropped or, if it goes to trial, that Comey will win.
- [36:17]
A
Well, he's eager to go to trial, of course.
- [36:20]
B
Yeah. You know, he will have to spend a lot of money to deal with this. He has the heartache of having to deal with it. And it's only the first among what are likely to be many punitive prosecutions. And again, you can bring these indictments against people, bring the full forces and resources of the federal government against them, and force them to spend, maybe into bankruptcy a lot of money to defend yourself against something that is farcical and illegitimate. And, you know, fortunately, many grand juries have already refused. You know, we used to have this slogan, ridiculous as it is, that a prosecutor can get a ham sandwich indicted by a grand jury. Because in a grand jury, you have no cross examination. You only have evidence, including in this instance, what we saw was highly selective evidence, distorted evidence, brought to a group of people who trust the government. We've already had citizens, and many of these grand juries say, no, we don't trust you. But that doesn't mean you can't find a grand jury to bring an indictment.
- [37:30]
A
Even this grand jury on this one threw out one of the charges against.
- [37:34]
B
Yes. And the others brought with distorted information. But we know now we have a magistrate judge who is ripped into the administration because they tried to bring an indictment against somebody, and a federal grand jury refused. So they went to a state, a D.C. grand jury to get an indictment after having already been refused. And this magistrate judge said, this is an outrageous breach of conduct. One hopes, by the way, that we will have some bar associations that will step in and begin to issue disciplinary action against Trump lawyers who are doing things that they know are wrong.
- [38:14]
A
Well, beyond this retribution, prosecuting people with retribution. Just talk about the different ways in which this president has become an authoritarian. Just. We saw trying to coerce ABC and the affiliates there to not carry Jimmy Kimmel's show because, you know, threaten mergers. That has to be. That's authoritarian. That's Hungary, that's Turkey. That's going after universities and going after law firms, and they're going after universities again. They're trying to basically get universities to agree to run their universities in line with their ideologies. Of course, he's prosecuting enemies. The money that his family is taking, all of this is. I mean, you know, people warned about him being authoritarian, but it's gone so far that there's no question, is there?
- [39:23]
B
There is absolutely no question. And instead of sliding towards authoritarianism, we're sprinting in that direction. But you've hit on, I think, a lot of the key points. This is right out of all of this is right out of the playbook of Erdogan, of Orban and of Putin for that matter. And in some ways, it's worse. If you look at what Erdogan and Orban have done, for example, it is using state power to shake down and coerce and punish those who criticize you. It's going after media outlets, what is on the surface, a free press, but making it clear that if you criticize the administration, you're either going to find huge tax bills that will bankrupt you and then have these outlets turned over to oligarchs who support the government, or you're going to find some of your executives charged with crimes and thrown into jail. It is basically corrupting the judiciary, even if it looks independent, understanding that if you rule against, you will find yourself in serious jeopardy or harm. So they basically go along with everything. It's people making billions in government by using their resources, sometimes in collaboration with oligarchs who will do what they want.
- [40:52]
A
Well, it's the Trump family making billions.
- [40:55]
B
And that's what Trump has done. And not just Trump. I mean, you know, Trump and Witkoff, his, or as I call him, half Witkoff, his negotiator in the Middle east and with Ukraine, have cut a deal with the United Arab Emirates where they're going to get money out of this. And in return, the United Arab Emirates is going to have access to the most sophisticated AI computer chips, which very likely now banned from being sent to our adversaries like China, will then make their way to China. So they're selling out American security, national security, for more money. The idea that you're hawking things like your hats and your bitcoin counterpart, and we know that people are buying millions of his coin while they have business in front of the government and often finding in Some instances, indictments dropped or pardons given as a consequence of money being given. We know that countries are offering to build resorts, golf courses and Trump properties in return for concessions being made. It's right out of authoritarianism. There's one difference with, I would say Hungary, Egypt, Turkey. We're much more vicious now. You have not seen masked thugs haul in people off the streets because they're being racially profiled and citizens being beaten, journalists having tear gas fired directly at them because they're covering what the brutality is, the level of brutality without consequence that Trump is bringing to our population, not just those who are undocumented, but to others, mind boggling. And more than what they've done in those places. And of course, destroying the economy at the same time.
- [43:06]
A
Going to these cities like Portland and Chicago and Memphis and speaking Hegseth and the president speaking to his, their generals and admirals, that was, that was shocking.
- [43:24]
B
Basically declaring war against American cities, the enemy from within.
- [43:28]
A
I mean, there. And I can't imagine those generals sitting there and taking that in and going like, what? That's not what we do.
- [43:38]
B
That's not, no. And we're going to have a test ahead as to who will go along violating their own oaths, you know, at the same time basically telling the generals and admirals they're too fat, followed by the obese president coming in saying, we aren't going to tolerate beards anymore. These Nordic God wannabes, while the bearded J.D. vance was listening. But it's much more declaring war on the city.
- [44:09]
A
Well, he's not in the military, in fairness to him. He's not.
- [44:13]
B
No, he's not in the military.
- [44:15]
A
We've had some generals, we've had some generals with beards, Ulysses Grant and some others.
- [44:22]
B
But, you know, take it to the next level with the military. We have now had Trump illegally declare war on drug cartels, which you cannot do. They're not posing a military threat, going out and killing what they know are innocent fishermen. JD Vance joking about the fishermen, claiming that they were part of a drug cartel and a violent gang with no proof whatsoever and threatening to go to war against Venezuela. You know, again, actions of an out of control authoritarian. Let's take one other example, Al, which is trying to blow up the government database. It's interesting, something that was pointed out by Paul Krugman and others, that if you look at the popular support for Putin and for Orban, a lot of it came because they were having prosperity, the economy was going well. They were supportive. Their daily lives for most of Them were not being disrupted. So they were absolutely willing to tolerate some of the bad things the government did because things were going well. That's not true with Trump. His support for almost all of his policies, including the economy, are in the dumper. And we know that when we get bad jobs numbers, he gets rid of the people giving the bad jobs numbers.
- [45:58]
A
And now we can't hire anybody to replace them.
- [46:02]
B
And, you know, they're going to try and distort all of the data coming. We also know that data about arrests, about crime in cities, which is down, violent crime, they are going to eliminate the data or distort the data. They're going to distort the census. That's all part of what an authoritarian does.
- [46:26]
A
Did Hegseth say anything about generals alerting enemies to our attacks on Signal?
- [46:35]
B
What Hegseth has done is to, among other things, he has tried to take away any ability for the Defense Department inspector general to investigate his own breach of national security on Signal and has tried to go after generals and use this process to go after generals that he claims outed him, basically including to our enemies. I don't think that will go anywhere, but it's another measure of the lawlessness involved here. You know, at the same time basically saying we're no longer going to have any ability for women in the military to blow the whistle on, on, on sexual assault within the military. Of course, the guy who himself has been a sexual predator, basically trying to cover up what has been horrific sexual violence in the military. You know, there is nothing that this guy has done. And here let's talk about the Republicans in the Senate who knew better. Let's start with the Armed Services Committee, which basically made sure that there would be no tough questioning of Pete Hegseth jammed through his confirmation, knowing better. Fifty Republican senators are responsible for everything that Pete Hegseth does now. And we wouldn't be in some of this very difficult place undermining our national security, undermining our homeland security if it weren't for Republicans in the Senate confirming people they knew were unfit for their jobs. Roger Wicker. Let's start with Roger Wicker a minute. Who as the chairman of the Armed Services Committee and who does know better, saying we're not going to allow any questions of behind closed doors of the woman who was paid off after accusing Pete Hegseth of rape.
- [48:51]
A
Right.
- [48:51]
B
Who volunteered to testify behind closed doors. We're only going to allow one round of seven minutes of questions from everybody in the Senate, made sure that Hegseth would get through. Terrible.
- [49:03]
A
So the vice president got Hegseth through. I mean, that was the vote. It was the 51st vote.
- [49:08]
B
Yes. Yes, of course.
- [49:11]
A
Oh, boy.
- [49:12]
B
Well, Yep. Have a nice day.
- [49:18]
A
Let's see how the shutdown plays out.
- [49:21]
B
Yeah.
- [49:22]
A
I hope it's done even before this drops. This drops on Sunday? No, that's not possible, is it? They take the weekend off.
- [49:30]
B
No, they're not even around. So nothing is going to happen for a while.
- [49:37]
A
Okay. All right.
- [49:39]
B
Well, my best to Judy and a big hug to Franny. And, you know, as I said, two terrific people, one terrific marriage, two great children, four incredible grandchildren, and two lives well lived. You are. You've been a model of the world of entertainment and the world of politics and public policy and the world of communication. And I am very proud to be your friend.
- [50:07]
A
Well, that's too kind.
- [50:08]
B
And to have officiated at your daughter's wedding.
- [50:12]
A
That's right.
- [50:12]
B
To have officiated at the baby naming for the first grandchild and to be really a part of the Franken family.
- [50:23]
A
Well, thanks for those kind words and thanks for doing this. Great, as always.
- [50:29]
B
Anytime, Al.
- [50:30]
A
Well, I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kottke, the great Leo Kottke. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next week.