Norm Ornstein on Another Terrible Week in D.C.

Summary

The Al Franken Podcast: Norm Ornstein on Another Terrible Week in D.C.

Release Date: March 23, 2025
Host: Al Franken
Guest: Norm Ornstein
Duration: Approximately 38 minutes
Transcript Excerpts: Provided content between [04:22] and [39:49]

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1. Introduction

Al Franken opens the episode by promoting his appearance in the Netflix series The Residents, an eight-episode murder mystery set in the White House residence. He highlights his role as a Senate committee chairman investigating the death of the White House chief usher, setting a light-hearted tone before delving into serious political discussions with his guest, Norm Ornstein.

---

2. Attempt to Dismantle the Department of Education

[04:22] Norm Ornstein:
“Trump is expected today to sign an executive order to instruct education secretary Lyndon McMahon to begin dismantling the agency, which cannot be closed without the approval of Congress. Right?”

[04:38] Political Analyst:
“Correct. Exactly.”

Ornstein and his co-host discuss President Trump's anticipated executive order aimed at dismantling the Department of Education without Congressional approval, raising concerns about a potential constitutional crisis. The conversation highlights the critical role of the Department in funding special education and supporting low-income schools through federal tax dollars.

[05:18] Norm Ornstein:
“This sounds like a nightmare for K through 12 schools, certainly, and for universities and just community colleges.”

The analysts emphasize the catastrophic impact of defunding the Department, citing studies like the North Carolina food stamps study, which demonstrates the direct correlation between financial support and student performance.

---

3. Trump’s Policies on Ukraine

[08:54] Norm Ornstein:
“Let's move to something that's really just bothers me so much that just makes me want to cry is Trump abandoning Ukraine.”

The discussion shifts to President Trump's approach to Ukraine, particularly his stance that weakens U.S. support for Ukraine amidst its conflict with Russia. Ornstein criticizes Trump's negotiations with Putin, suggesting that the U.S. is inadvertently serving Russia's interests.

[10:05] Political Analyst:
“It may not matter, because in almost everything that he's doing... it's a wet dream of Putin and the Kremlin that's being fulfilled.”

They argue that Trump's actions not only undermine Ukraine but also harm American economic interests by disrupting the flow of funds to U.S. weapons manufacturers, which could lead to decreased support from European allies and damage the American economy.

[15:36] Norm Ornstein:
“I'm wondering if, can Ukraine buy American weapons directly from the manufacturers or not?”

The conversation highlights the complexity of weapon supply chains and the potential for Trump to impose an embargo, further destabilizing Ukraine's defense capabilities and weakening NATO alliances.

---

4. Deportation Practices and ICE Actions

[16:10] Norm Ornstein:
“Who were deported out of our country without any kind of due process.”

Ornstein condemns the Trump administration's deportation of Venezuelan immigrants to El Salvador, where they face harsh conditions without due process. He provides specific examples of innocent individuals being wrongfully deported, including a celebrated Venezuelan soccer player and a French scientist critical of Trump.

[19:44] Norm Ornstein:
“We know that there are some innocent men among them. Well, that is unconscionable.”

The hosts criticize the use of the Alien Enemies Act and the administration's disregard for legal norms, emphasizing the moral and legal failings of these deportation practices.

---

5. Government Shutdown Discussion

[27:07] Norm Ornstein:
“If the Democrats vote to shut it down, do the Democrats get blamed for it or do the Republicans get blamed for it?”

The discussion moves to the narrowly avoided government shutdown, attributing blame to Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer for capitulating under pressure from House Republicans. They explore the potential consequences of an extended shutdown, including financial instability for government employees and essential services.

[24:39] Norm Ornstein:
“Nobody gets paid during a shutdown.”

Ornstein elaborates on the hardships faced by government workers and contractors during a shutdown, arguing that prolonged closures would lead to widespread chaos and economic distress.

---

6. Future Legislative Actions and Reconciliation Bill

[32:34] Norm Ornstein:
“So what is next? Aren't we looking into the future of a reconciliation bill?”

Looking ahead, Ornstein and his co-host discuss the looming reconciliation bill, a significant piece of legislation that could pass with minimal Republican support due to its structure. They express concern over the potential for drastic policy changes, including further erosion of social safety nets like Medicare and Social Security.

[33:38] Norm Ornstein:
“We have near complete unity in the House.”

The analysts warn that the reconciliation process could lead to substantial policy shifts favoring Republican agendas without sufficient bipartisan collaboration, further entrenching political division.

---

7. Closing Thoughts

[35:00] Norm Ornstein:
“We got a problem getting a base that stays focused and understands that it has to show up at the polls no matter what obstacles they put in place in 2026.”

In their closing remarks, Ornstein and his co-host reflect on the Democratic Party's internal divisions and the challenges they face in maintaining voter support amidst political turmoil. They stress the importance of rebuilding the party's communication strategies and policy frameworks to better resonate with the electorate.

[38:03] Norm Ornstein:
“What Schumer did not only was mistaken as a strategy, but it's unleashed an even greater level of acrimony and internal bitterness within the Democratic Party.”

Ornstein concludes by highlighting the broader implications of current political strategies, urging for a more unified and effective Democratic approach in future elections.

---

Key Insights and Conclusions

• Constitutional Crisis Risks: The potential dismantling of the Department of Education poses significant legal and societal challenges, threatening crucial support for low-income and special education students.

• Ukraine Policy Critique: Trump's approach to Ukraine and negotiations with Putin may undermine U.S. interests, weaken NATO alliances, and harm the American economy by disrupting defense funding.

• Deportation Practices: The administration's indiscriminate deportations lack due process and violate human rights, damaging the U.S.'s reputation and straining international relations.

• Government Shutdown Consequences: Prolonged shutdowns would have severe economic and operational impacts, highlighting the necessity for responsible governance and bipartisan cooperation.

• Reconciliation Bill Concerns: Upcoming legislative actions could lead to significant policy shifts without adequate checks, exacerbating political divisions and undermining social safety nets.

• Democratic Party Challenges: Internal divisions and strategic missteps threaten the Democratic Party's ability to maintain voter engagement and effectively oppose Republican agendas.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Norm Ornstein [04:22]:
  “Trump is expected today to sign an executive order to instruct education secretary Lyndon McMahon to begin dismantling the agency...”

• Political Analyst [10:05]:
  “It may not matter, because in almost everything that he's doing... it's a wet dream of Putin and the Kremlin that's being fulfilled.”

• Norm Ornstein [16:10]:
  “Who were deported out of our country without any kind of due process.”

• Norm Ornstein [27:07]:
  “If the Democrats vote to shut it down, do the Democrats get blamed for it or do the Republicans get blamed for it?”

• Norm Ornstein [35:00]:
  “We got a problem getting a base that stays focused and understands that it has to show up at the polls no matter what obstacles they put in place in 2026.”

---

This episode offers a critical examination of the current political landscape, emphasizing the detrimental effects of executive overreach, flawed foreign policy, and internal party discord. Norm Ornstein provides a sobering analysis of the challenges facing American governance and the Democratic Party's efforts to navigate a deeply divided political environment.

Transcript

[Al Franken]

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[Norm Ornstein]

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[Al Franken]

Hey everybody, we've got a great one today, you know, for a change. And that's because Norm Ornstein joins us once again. Norm, of course, is in our pantheon of great guests, and I'm gonna go right to him. But first I want to urge listeners to tune in to Netflix for the Residents. It's an eight episode murder mystery set in the White House residence. And it's great. And I'm in it. I play a senator. I, I know, not a stretch. I'm the chairman of a Senate committee that's investigating whether the death of the chief usher of the White House is a murder or a suicide.

[Norm Ornstein]

It's. It's a murder.

[Al Franken]

The chief usher runs the residence and ends up dead during a state dinner. Now, the first stage direction that describes my character is avuncular uncle like. So that's how I play it. But the White House wants the committee to find that it was a suicide, which it wasn't. So I'm really kind of a hack. So my character isn't me. I really had to dig deep to create an avuncular hack. Of course, I have a relatively small role, but the cast is full of great actors, led by Uzo Aduba, who plays the brilliant detective Cordelia Cup. So check out the Residents on Netflix. You'll love it and it'll take your mind off all the crap that's really taking place in the White House, which is exactly what Norm Ornstein and I discuss. It's a great one. You know, for a change.

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[Norm Ornstein]

Now, Trump is expected today to sign an executive order to instruct education secretary Lyndon McMahon to begin dismantling the agency, which cannot be closed without the approval of Congress. Right?

[Political Analyst]

Correct. Exactly.

[Norm Ornstein]

So, so what's going to happen here? Is this a constitutional crisis? On this one and the many other things that we're looking at, it's certainly.

[Political Analyst]

You know, what I think Trump believes, and he has some good reason to believe it, is that he can do anything he wants that's illegal. And there's a pretty good chance he'll get away with it. So he cannot legally dismantle the Department of Education, can he, with his executive authority, screw up the department and render it impotent? Yeah, he can. My guess is he'll be doing that.

[Norm Ornstein]

Well, that feels like chaos, though. I mean, that feels like chaos for the people in the department and for everybody who's being educated by through the Department of Education. I mean, this sounds like a nightmare for K through 12 schools, certainly, and for universities and just community colleges. I mean, I don't know how this works.

[Political Analyst]

Let's talk a little bit about what the Department of Education does. As you alluded to it, One is almost all of the money that goes to kids with special needs in public schools comes from the Department of Education through federal tax dollars. So take that money away. And, you know, the Department of Education mostly just gives money out to state and local governments and school boards to manage some of the core functions that we hope for all of our citizens that would not be done otherwise in a whole lot of places.

[Norm Ornstein]

And they do it for schools. They give extra funding to schools that.

[Political Analyst]

Have low income, the school breakfast and school lunch program. And of course, we remember Tim Walls talking about that when Minnesota came up with enough money to give free breakfast and lunch to all public school kids, we wouldn't have separate classes of kids. But as he said, and it's true, kids don't learn very well on empty bellies. That'll go away.

[Norm Ornstein]

I remember learning that poor kids are hungry when they show up on Monday.

[Political Analyst]

I will tell you one of the most interesting studies I've seen done a number of years ago in North Carolina. In North Carolina, the food stamps that come to people are not provided on a specific day. It's like a rolling thing. So some days you might get your allotment for the month on the 1st of the month, other days on the 15th of the month. And they did what was in effect a controlled study of kids. They looked at kids who had gotten their food stamps on a particular day and the the next day or within a few days did tests in their schools. Then they looked at the same kids who were 20 days out and getting their food stamp allotment and also had tests, same kids, and the performance results were dramatically different. On a cold stomach, they did well. On an empty stomach or a not full stomach, they did poorly. So we know how this works and it's catastrophic. At the same time, the Department of Education runs the student loan program. So blow it up and you're going to have a whole lot of people with student loans who are going to be in limbo or worse. It's stupid. But what I'm also struck by here is apparently the report suggests that when Trump does his photo op to cut the cord on the Department of Education, he will be joined by a group of governors, including Glenn Youngkin of Virginia and Mike DeWine of Ohio, among others. The press continues to refer to Glenn Youngkin as a moderate. He is a radical right wing Trumpist cult member and we should never forget that.

[Norm Ornstein]

He's over after this this year. Right.

[Political Analyst]

He is term limited, but he will clearly want a position in the Trump administration. You know, he's not going away, sadly.

[Norm Ornstein]

Let's move to something that's really just bothers me so much that just makes my, makes me want to cry is Trump abandoning Ukraine. I mean, in that White House meeting when he told Zelensky, you don't have the cards. Well, of course, the number one card is the U.S. right? Is the backing of the U.S. and he's basically telling them, you don't have us.

[Political Analyst]

Well, it's even worse. He referred to Zelensky as a dictator. We know now that at least there are reports that Steve Witkoff, the negotiator for Trump, Don Jr. Jared, and others have been communicating with the opposition to Zelenskyy, trying to figure out a way to force him out. Trump has said that if we're going to do anything for Ukraine, Zelenskyy has to go. We know that he despises Zelenskyy because Zelenskyy didn't fold, didn't go after the.

[Norm Ornstein]

Bidens, didn't go after the Bidens after the phone call.

[Political Analyst]

But we also know that while he called Zelensky, elected by a substantial margin, operating under Ukrainian law and constitution, which says in the middle of a war, you don't hold an election, calls him a dictator and refuses to call Putin a dictator, then says, I'm going to negotiate an end to this by sitting down with Putin and freezing out Zelensky, then tries to shake down Zelensky. You know, it's almost as if Trump is just taking direct orders from Putin. And whether that's because he just admires the strongman, because he wants to emulate him, or because Putin has something on him, which is sadly plausible, it may not matter, because in almost everything that he's doing, involving the world, in almost everything he's doing to foment division in the United States, it's a wet dream of Putin and the Kremlin that's being fulfilled. So we are no longer pursuing America's national interests. We're pursuing Russia's national interest in our name.

[Norm Ornstein]

Now, of course, during the campaign, he said he would do this in one day. And the concessions he got from Putin were all things that he actually wanted to do anyway. You know, say you can't hit energy facilities, right?

[Political Analyst]

Well, he wanted the beginning of a ceasefire on that and in other areas. But now he is trying to get Zelensky to agree to turn the energy facilities over to the United States. You know, what we know is to whatever degree, Putin wants a ceasefire, and he doesn't want a permanent ceasefire and he doesn't want a long lasting ceasefire. But he's, you know, his troops have been battered, his equipment has been drained. He wants a ceasefire. It's Almost like a boxer who could be knocked out with, you know, a little time left in the round saying, wait, hold on a second. Let's just stop here. Let's take the break now before the round is over. Give me a few minutes and then we'll go back at it. So that's, you know, Putin. But Putin has also been clearly telling Trump, I'm not making any concessions here. If we reach a deal, it's because I get everything that I've taken and I want an opportunity later to do more.

[Norm Ornstein]

That seems clear from the way these are going, because there was nothing in the conditions that he put in that wasn't something that he wanted.

[Political Analyst]

Yep.

[Norm Ornstein]

So you think the US Looks like it will leave Ukraine entirely and leave it up to Europe, which I don't think is prepared. Europe and US Gave almost the equivalent. I think Europe gave a little bit more. But if you've taken away 45% of Ukraine's weapons and other intelligence hardware and stuff, you're really leaving it vulnerable.

[Political Analyst]

I'm hopeful in this sense Europe is waking up to this reality and they're starting to supply more weaponry. A key test for Europe is going to be whether they finally now take the 300 and some billion dollars in Russian frozen assets that they have and turn them over to Ukraine. If Ukraine actually has the money, it can buy weapons. But this is a problem for the reason that you suggested, but also because so much of the weaponry that Ukraine has is American in nature. And whether you can continue to operate without the spare parts, without artillery specifically designed for those weapons is another question. But what we're seeing is that Europe is stepping up to provide some of the more sophisticated weapons for Ukraine to use. And, you know, they may, if they can survive this for another few months, they may be at least in a somewhat better place. Before we end this topic, there's another interesting part of this. Trump has, of course, lied repeatedly and said, we've given Ukraine $350 billion and that they're supposed to pay it back. The fact is that it's closer to 100 billion. But we haven't given them money. It's American weapons manufacturers and American companies that are getting paid. 90% of the money stays in the United States. And if we stop doing this, that is going to be a serious body blow to an awful lot of American companies. And at the same time, what we're seeing is countries around the world, especially our European allies, are now canceling the orders that they have for American planes and American weapons, saying we can't rely on the United States, and they're either moving to ramp up to produce their own or buying from European suppliers or others. And so all of what Trump is doing to help out Putin is going to have a significant deleterious effect on the American economy and on industries populated by people who probably voted for him.

[Norm Ornstein]

I'm wondering if, can Ukraine buy American weapons directly from the manufacturers or not? I don't know.

[Political Analyst]

They can, unless Trump puts a stop to it, which he can. He can probably put an embargo on that. But there are enough weapons out there in other places that whether it's on the black market or given directly by our allies, he should be able to replenish his stocks.

[Norm Ornstein]

Let me ask you, let's change the subject to these Venezuelan men.

[Political Analyst]

Yeah.

[Norm Ornstein]

Who were deported out of our country without any kind of due process. Right. And flown to El Salvador, where the dictator of El Salvador was very happy to put them in what sounds like a horror of a prison and put them to hard work for a year at least, but without due process. And the judge said, as these planes were taking off to go to El Salvador, said, you have to come back. And that was a judge, that was a district court judge ordering that. And they completely refused to do it.

[Political Analyst]

You know, this judge, by the way, who Trump is now calling a radical left wing judge.

[Norm Ornstein]

Radical left lunatic is what he said.

[Political Analyst]

So this radical left lunatic, he is among the most widely respected across the board.

[Norm Ornstein]

And Trump called for his impeachment. Right.

[Political Analyst]

The key part of this is that Trump's lawyers basically defied the judge and used bogus legal arguments that would be laughed out of a normal courtroom and they would be sanctioned under other circumstances for doing so. But then you get to the reality here that Trump used a 1798 law.

[Norm Ornstein]

Right.

[Political Analyst]

That has only before been used sparingly in the middle of major wars where. Which there is not one.

[Norm Ornstein]

Now, what's the name of that act?

[Political Analyst]

Well, it's the Alien Enemies Act, I believe.

[Norm Ornstein]

Right.

[Political Analyst]

We know that a number of these Venezuelan men who were spirited away and put on these planes and sent to this horrific prison in El Salvador on the pretext that they were members of a gang, are not members of a gang. Some of them have tattoos that are innocent tattoos. And these ICE people just looked at said Venezuelan tattoo. You're heading to prison. We know that one of them is a celebrated Venezuelan soccer player who fled to the United States under death threats from the Maduro government and applied for asylum legally and has now been taken away. Trump is doing maduro's dirty business, which ought to have some motivation for Venezuelan American voters who voted for Trump. We know that there are others who are perfectly innocent. And we know that at least one of them was supposed to be a hearing for his legal immigration status. And his lawyers only found out that he was headed to El Salvador when he didn't show up for the hearing and they were notified. And his lawyers now say that repeated attempts to get in touch with their client have been rebuffed by this administration, which refuses to let out any names, allow family members to contact any of these men, and had one of them testify in court, one of the lawyers testify in court that they know there are innocents among them and they're just stonewalling it. The level of evil here.

[Norm Ornstein]

Now, who was the lawyer who said that?

[Political Analyst]

It was a Justice Department lawyer.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yes, a Justice Department lawyer.

[Political Analyst]

Yep.

[Norm Ornstein]

Said they knew that there are some innocent men.

[Political Analyst]

Yeah.

[Norm Ornstein]

Among them. Well, that is unconscionable.

[Political Analyst]

All of this is unconscionable. And, you know, we have other things going on that, you know, you just look at one of the things. In a related vein, a couple of weeks ago, we learned about a young British woman who had had a dream of doing a four month backpack across North America, got a six month tourist visa, was picked up by ICE and thrown in jail and is still in jail. We know about a Canadian woman here, legally picked up and put in horrific conditions in a jail in a frozen cell, given a big piece of aluminum foil to use as a blanket. And she's written about this. She was in jail for, I think, at least a couple of weeks. Then we know about this French scientist coming here for a scientific meeting, stopped at the airport where ICE seized his computer and cell phone, went through them and found that he had sent emails that were critical of Trump for cutting medical research, and they deported him. So we have a French person, a Canadian person, a British person. It's as if they are under orders deliberately to choose people here, innocent people here legally, from our allies. So we're going to show our allies what happens when you decide not to blindly follow Trump as he sells out Ukraine and bolsters Putin and tries to blow up NATO.

[Norm Ornstein]

Usually that's how you treat people from shithole countries.

[Political Analyst]

Yes. Right. Well, he's now broadened the list of shithole countries to include all of our closest friends and allies.

[Norm Ornstein]

Let's talk about the shutdown that was avoided last week because Schumer decided to vote with the gop.

[Political Analyst]

Shameful.

[Norm Ornstein]

Now, did he try to bargain for anything.

[Political Analyst]

So here's what Schumer said in his really cringeworthy interview with Chris Hayes the other night, that he tried very hard to get these Senate Republicans to go along with a one month, you know, straightforward continuing resolution so they could continue to bargain that he tried very hard to take some of the rough edges off the really horrible continuing resolution, which is not really a continuing resolution, because the definition of that is that you're just continuing spending from the previous time. The House Republicans turned it into something where they cut a lot of good programs and then gave Trump enormous leeway to rearrange funds within them. Patty Murray, the Democrat who is the ranking member of the Appropriations Committee and former chair of that committee, told Senate Democrats what a catastrophe it would be if this particular resolution were enacted, because it would give Trump basically the appropriations authority that Congress has. And Schumer talked tough for a little bit, I think, based on the hope that there would be a few House Republicans who will vote this down, would vote this down, and then he could look like the tough guy, but they would have to regroup and negotiate. And then when it passed the House and came to the Senate and John Thune basically said to Schumer, take it or leave it. Schumer took it, and he got enough Democrats to join with him to overrule a filibuster that would have blocked it first. He said, look, it's a bad choice, and this is awful, but a shutdown would have been much worse. It would have lasted for six months or a year.

[Norm Ornstein]

Now, has a shutdown lasted for anywhere near that?

[Political Analyst]

No. And the longest shutdown in Trump's first term was like 35 days. A celebrated shutdown that brought down Newt GINGRICH Ultimately, in 1995 and 96 over those holidays lasted 21 days. Now, why don't they last? And why would it be ridiculous to imagine one lasting for six months? I'll just give you one core reason. What happens and what Schumer said was fearful is that a president in a shutdown is given the authority to decide what fund functions are essential and have to stay open and which ones are not so essential that they, you know, endanger public safety or national security, and that the people don't have to come to work.

[Norm Ornstein]

Do those people who are working get paid?

[Political Analyst]

No. And that's the key point. Nobody gets paid during a shutdown. The past experience is that for the government employees, after a shutdown is over, Congress basically reimburses them for their back pay.

[Norm Ornstein]

That is no solace to someone during that 35 days, 36 days, whatever.

[Political Analyst]

Yeah. And by the way, the contractors, which includes the people who clean the offices, the people who man the security desks, they almost never get repaid because, you know, the government isn't paying them. They're paying their companies that pay their employees and they don't pay employees who aren't working. Now with that, let's look at the reality of it. You're out for 30 days or 35 days. And for a lot of people who rely on their paychecks to pay for the rent or pay for the mortgage or pay for the food, that's awful. But, you know, people who have managed to get by, sometimes they have a little savings or they can get family to help or get even a bridge loan. Others have more trouble. But imagine if that goes on not for one month, but six months or longer. You're an air traffic controller and you gotta show up for work and you're not getting paid. Maybe you're gonna get a part time job at Starbucks to try and help put food on the table. Then you're working a full, you know, 60 hours a week as an air traffic controller and you're working another 20 hours a week at Starbucks. Are we going to feel good about having that person avoiding taking a nap or falling asleep while trying to move these planes around? Some of them. A lot of them are going to quit.

[Norm Ornstein]

Sounds like a plot from Breaking Bad or something.

[Political Analyst]

Yeah, it sure does. And we know that when people quit because at minimum in a lot of places, they're going to be able to go on unemployment and at least be able to pay some bills or they're going to look out for and find other jobs. And for the ones working in these essential areas, they may be able to do just that. You're not going to be able to bring them back. We will have chaos out there. The TSA people are going to look for other jobs, they'll quit, and we're going to have, at minimum, huge lines at airports and people getting up in arms. There's a reason why shutdowns end up with a huge public backlash after a while.

[Norm Ornstein]

So who gets the blame for that? If the Democrats vote to shut it down, do the Democrats get blamed for it or do the Republicans get blamed for it?

[Political Analyst]

I was critical of Schumer before he made this decision, which I believe has deeply divided Democrats even more, created an enormous backlash, made Democrats look weak and they will be exploited for that. But Democrats, in unison, should have been saying long before this, Republicans have the majority The Republicans have the House, they have the Senate, they have the White House. Anything that happens here is their responsibility. And if they had said we tried to keep the government open, they did something unreasonable and that's not going to happen, then you have to go out there and aggressively make the case that it's the Republicans fault.

[Norm Ornstein]

It would be our media versus their media though. I mean that.

[Political Analyst]

Yeah, well, you know, look, one of the things we have to do more generally is build a better media and build a better communications outlet. But after a while it becomes clear that even if it was Democratic votes that triggered a shutdown, it's Republican votes that could bring them back and end the chaos. And they're not going to do it. So eventually they will have to do it. I'd rather have the pushback. When we see what happens with Trump as president and radicals running the House and Senate and a take it or leave it posture and people begin to see what government actually does for them, when they see what it's not doing, then have capitulation, which is what Chuck did.

[Norm Ornstein]

Pelosi said that she never gives something up without getting something. And Schumer didn't do that. You're saying he tried.

[Political Analyst]

Let me go back to his interview with Chris Hayes and some of the things that he said more regularly, which includes that now he's confident he'll find Republicans he can work with and he talks to them in the gym all the time where they can be more candid because everybody's working out and they don't have their clothes on. Schumer is living in a world that no longer exists. It's like because they're friendly to you in the gym, that it's going to translate into civil behavior and constructive behavior through a bipartisan fashion. And what the Senate does and the.

[Norm Ornstein]

Republicans are terrified about being primaried with musk money behind your primary opponent and.

[Political Analyst]

About threats to their well being and the lives of their family. But yes, but what we know, and you know this very well, some of these Republicans in the Senate can be lovely people you'd love to have dinner with you, you know, and can view as friends. But it has no impact on how they behave as senators in a fashion that fits with the Trump culture. And there is no pushback whatsoever. So if you're lulled into believing that because somebody is a nice person with a good family and you can go out to the movies with them or have dinner with them, that absolves them of responsibility for their heinous behavior, you're living in A world that you shouldn't be living in. And that's the last thing we need.

[Norm Ornstein]

I wouldn't go to a movie with a Republican colleague, but I would have dinner with him. Yeah, if there was a screening of something and all parties were invited, I'd go.

[Political Analyst]

Okay. That's a good distinction.

[Norm Ornstein]

Distinction, yeah. We're gonna take a break for a moment. We'll be right back.

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[Norm Ornstein]

So what is next? Aren't we looking into the future of a reconciliation bill?

[Political Analyst]

Yeah, the next big shoe to drop in Congress and domestic policy. Other than this, you know, ridiculous attempt to blow up the Department of Education. This sending in goons, including the D.C. police, sadly to take over and invade the U.S. institute for Peace. This blowing up of aid. You know, it says something about the Senate that Marco Rubio won his confirmation unanimously and now has basically eviscerated aid which will cause millions of additional deaths. But put that aside, the next big thing is the longer term spending and taxing authority. That doesn't require overcoming a filibuster. That can be done with all Democrats Voting in unison under what's called reconciliation. And that's looming. We don't know exactly when, but within the next couple of months.

[Norm Ornstein]

So that reconciliation bill Republicans could pass themselves. Yeah, they're going to need.

[Political Analyst]

We have near complete unity in the House. And, you know, they could get by with all but three in the Senate.

[Norm Ornstein]

And none of those Republican senators are going to vote against it. Right.

[Political Analyst]

If any one of them does, it's knowing that it'll pass anyhow. That's part of the deal from the past. Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski, you can vote however you wish unless it would make a difference. And then, as we saw with Brett Kavanaugh, you better toe the line, as Collins did.

[Norm Ornstein]

And Mitch McConnell, of course, has voted against a few of the nominees for cabinet positions. Right, Right.

[Political Analyst]

This is governmental macbeth. Out. Out damned spot. I will try to absolve myself for what I did to enable this guy to come back and be president by casting a few negative votes. Will I vote against a continuing resolution? That's terrible. No. Will I vote against Reconciliation? No. Mitch McConnell will be with him on everything that matters.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yep. Okay. Well, thanks, Norm.

[Political Analyst]

I'm glad I could make you and all of our listeners feel better.

[Norm Ornstein]

Is there anything to make them feel better? Any? I don't think so.

[Political Analyst]

Well, for all of us from Minnesota, the Vikings are doing pretty damn well in the off season. That's one small thing. More broadly, we can. Yeah, we do have some state attorneys general who are, you know, pushing back through the legal process. We've got some private lawyers and others who are pushing back, also using the law and in some cases, you know, trying to prevent our elections from completely being destroyed. And there's a real possibility here that they will go too far and that they've gone too far, that not only are we seeing prices go up instead of Trump's promise that egg prices would come down in a day, but we're also seeing a public that's starting to realize that they're serious about going after Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, the safety net, doing things that are impinging on people's daily lives. Veterans who have been a mainstay for Republicans and Trump, seeing how they're being treated. That we'll see a public that at one level moves away enough voters from this idea. Government doesn't do anything for me. Who cares if we blow it up to understanding that there's a real purpose to government to protect them, and maybe over the long run, we'll get an ability to reconstruct the Democratic Party in a majority that is able to communicate better with people.

[Norm Ornstein]

Well, I think the Democratic Party is in real trouble because you look at, at Trump taking a hit in polls and it's like, well, now he's down to 46%, something like that. But where are Democrats at this point?

[Political Analyst]

Not in a good place and divided. And, you know, that's a good part. What Schumer did not only was mistaken as a strategy, but it's unleashed an even greater level of acrimony and internal bitterness within the Democratic Party, demoralized a good portion of the base, created a story about recriminations within the party that's taken some of the heat off of Trump for his comments and disastrous moves. But we got a problem getting a base that stays focused and understands that it has to show up at the polls no matter what obstacles they put in place in 2026. And we got some work to do and we have some work to do to create a better frame for policies.

[Norm Ornstein]

There's a poll on April 1st in Wisconsin that's very important. The Supreme Court justice there, it'll decide the balance of the court. And that's a crucial one.

[Political Analyst]

The Republican is a horrible person and a, you know, clear partisan hack. And it would be devastating to Wisconsin and ultimately to the country if he won.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yes. Okay. Thank you, Norm.

[Political Analyst]

Thank you, Al. Have a good day.

[Norm Ornstein]

Well, I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kottke.

[Al Franken]

The great Leo Kottke.

[Norm Ornstein]

I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next week.

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