Norm Ornstein on ICE Terrorizing Minnesota

Summary

The Al Franken Podcast
Episode: Norm Ornstein on ICE Terrorizing Minnesota
Released: February 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode examines the ongoing and increasingly brutal presence of ICE and Border Patrol agents in Minnesota under the Trump administration. Host Al Franken is joined by political scientist Norm Ornstein to discuss how federal law enforcement has been "terrorizing" the state, traumatizing communities of color, and provoking massive grassroots resistance. The conversation covers egregious abuses by agents, disturbing new tactics by the administration, the complicity (and occasional pushback) from politicians and corporations, and the inspiring ways Minnesotans are rallying to defend targeted neighbors.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Minnesota Under Siege by ICE and CBP

• Massive, militarized presence: Over 3,000 ICE and Border Patrol agents have flooded Minnesota, ostensibly to crack down on undocumented immigrants, but have targeted Black Minnesotans, Somali Americans (most of whom are citizens), and other communities of color indiscriminately.
• Widespread fear and trauma: Families are afraid to leave their homes; children are missing school; hospitals have seen parents stop visiting their babies for fear of arrest.
• Notable abuse stories: ICE agents using deception (posing as mutual aid volunteers), injuring detainees, making medical decisions for patients, and in some cases, using children as bait or hostages.

"ICE’s presence in hospitals has been particularly disturbing. I was told about a NICU where half the babies aren’t receiving visitors because their families are too scared that ICE will show up at the hospital."
— Al Franken (06:30)

2. Alex Preddy's Murder & Administration Response

• Horrifying video evidence: Alex Preddy, a community member, was shot 10 times while pinned to the ground by ICE agents—even as he appeared unarmed and nonthreatening. Agents were seen celebrating after the shooting.
• Administration spin & deflection: Kristi Noem and Stephen Miller publicly blamed Preddy for his own death and painted him as a domestic terrorist—despite overwhelming video evidence to the contrary.
• Attempts to stifle investigation: ICE confiscated and possibly wiped Preddy's phone and initially stalled any meaningful probes into agent misconduct.

"The level of sadism...exulted in it. And one of them went away clapping his hands instead of administering to him—even if he had been dead..."
— Norm Ornstein (12:14)

3. Political Fallout and Internal GOP Strife

• Backlash and PR crisis: Trump and administration figures now attempt to "de-escalate" rhetorically as public outcry grows, even among some Republicans.
• Shifting scapegoats: Kristi Noem distances herself ("I was only following orders"; 17:05). Bevino replaced by Tom Homan, who is “more reasonable” in tone but deeply implicated in past scandals.
• Impeachment talk: A growing number of House Democrats have endorsed a resolution to impeach Noem for abuses related to these events.

4. Systemic Problems and Institutional Complicity

• Democratic ambivalence: Some Democrats, notably John Fetterman, offer lukewarm support for ICE reforms despite personal ties to immigrant communities.
• Corporate silence: Large Minnesota corporations have been largely silent or tepid, issuing only vague calls to "de-escalate tension."
• Federal incentives for mass arrests: Agents reportedly receive bonuses for arrests, regardless of legal status or criminality of detainees.

5. Grassroots Resistance and Community Solidarity

• Mass protests & mutual aid: Tens of thousands march in subzero weather; mutual aid networks deliver groceries and provide safe transportation, with over 1,400 people receiving food in one week alone.
• Constitutional observer movement: Civic training sessions empower volunteers to document ICE abuses and advocate for immigrant rights.

"For every terrible story about ICE snatching an innocent person off the street, there are 10 stories of Minnesotans coming together...the level of mutual aid is astounding."
— Al Franken (08:20)

• Digital infiltration and retaliation: ICE and online extremists are doxxing, infiltrating Signal chats, and spreading misinformation—but community groups continue to adapt and resist.

6. Racist and Authoritarian Overtones

• Explicit retribution: Trump is described as using the operation for "retribution" against political enemies in Minnesota, a blue state.
• Targeting communities of color: Black, Somali, and Native American communities are disproportionately targeted, sometimes being deported or detained despite citizenship.
• Voter suppression linkage: Efforts to extract voter rolls and suppress turnout among Somali and Native voters, raising fears about integrity of upcoming elections.

"They want to get not just how people have registered or even something about how they might have voted, but...use that info to go after them before an election..."
— Norm Ornstein (59:31)

7. Proposals for ICE Reform

• Demands from Democrats:
  • Agents must remove masks and wear body cameras.
  • Stop home raids without judicial warrants (Fourth Amendment).
  • Prohibit attacks on peaceful observers and bystanders.
  • Accountability and prosecution for agents violating laws—though skepticism remains on whether these are "real" reforms or PR.

"They want to remove the masks. They want body cams, just like police have to do...No more violations of the Fourth Amendment...no more attacking protesters." — Norm Ornstein (32:07)

8. Detention Facilities and Human Rights Atrocities

• Creation and use of ad hoc detention camps (e.g., Fort Snelling, “Alligator Alcatraz” in Florida).
• Documented deaths and disappearances: At least one child has died due to lack of medication, cases of fatal abuse/murder, families separated and people effectively "disappeared."
• Transporting and abandoning detainees: Citizens and legal residents are sometimes detained, moved across the country (to Texas), and released with no support, as a form of cruelty and intimidation.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On ICE's Tactics:
  "We have to also remember that when Trump called for this massive movement into Minnesota, he used the word retribution...against Tim Walz...against a blue state that voted against him."
  — Norm Ornstein (21:31)

• On the state of the Minnesota GOP:
  "Emmer, who made a major effort to try and get Somalis to vote Republican, has abandoned that community entirely...He’s given up every element of his fundamental humanity."
  — Norm Ornstein (26:30)

• On Community Response:
  "Minnesota nice is reflected in...the vast majority who live in the Twin Cities...But it's not uniform. The Republicans in the Minnesota House and Senate...have been simply awful."
  — Norm Ornstein (24:44)

• On Kidnapping and Extortion of Native Americans:
  "They arrested four members of the Sioux Nation who were homeless in Minneapolis...and then said, we will let you know where they are...if you sign an agreement on immigration with ICE. So this is kidnapping and extortion."
  — Norm Ornstein (58:01)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:00] – Overview of ICE/CBP abuses and community trauma in Minnesota
• [07:45] – Mutual aid and constitutional observer efforts
• [12:14] – Alex Preddy’s murder and ICE’s response
• [17:05] – Kristi Noem's public backtracking ("just following orders")
• [24:30] – Minnesota’s political history and corporate silence
• [31:30] – Right-wing extremist recruitment into ICE
• [32:07] – Democratic demands for ICE reforms
• [38:51] – Public opinion turning against Trump on immigration
• [42:00] – House Democrats’ move to impeach Kristi Noem
• [46:34] – Empowerment of constitutional observers
• [51:00] – ICE detention camps and deaths in custody
• [56:25] – ICE targeting the Somali community for voter suppression
• [58:01] – Kidnapping/extortion of Native American homeless
• [59:31] – Federal demands for state voter rolls and their implications

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Tone and Atmosphere

Despite the severity of the subject, the conversation maintains Al Franken’s trademark blend of moral outrage, dry wit, and gratitude for community resilience. Norm Ornstein brings a scholarly but impassioned perspective, underscoring the real and imminent dangers faced by civil society amid federal overreach.

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Conclusion

Franken and Ornstein close by emphasizing Minnesotans' resolve to continue resisting injustice and defending democratic norms, urging listeners nationwide to get involved in whatever capacity they can—donating, observing, advocating, or supporting frontline communities—against what they see as a “racist and violent agenda.”

This is a sobering, deeply disturbing episode that shines a critical spotlight on authoritarian abuses—while highlighting the power of organized, collective resistance.

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Transcript

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[Podcast Host]

Hey everybody. It's a tough one today, you know, for a change because there are still thousands of ICE and Border Patrol agents in Minnesota. A friend of the podcast, Norm Ornstein, joins us to discuss whether or not they'll be pulling back some of their forces and whether Homeland Security will adopt new rules of engagement in the state and around the country. Now, Norm and I recorded our conversation on Thursday evening. So as this drops on Sunday, a few things have changed in terms of the congressional spending package. We will have a shutdown, but it seems it will be only for a few days and with real reforms we hope in ICE and how ICE and CBP operate now, I don't know what impact that will really make on the ground. I know Minnesotans only hope for the day that ICE is off our streets entirely. Norm and I of course discuss the ongoing tensions between the armed mass agents who have been terrorizing the state and the tens of thousands of Minnesotans who are protesting and standing up to them and volunteering to assist immigrant families. It's remarkable but traumatizing for everyone. So before we get to our conversation with Norma, I want to share a bit with you about my time in Minneapolis this past week. I have to tell you, Minnesotans have been remarkable during this emotionally rugged period. The murder of Alex Preddy was. Was horrifying, as were the obscene statements coming from Nome and Trump and Lovino and Patel and Stephen Miller blaming Preddy for his. His own. His own death. And I've continued hearing stories of federal agents abusing their power, unjustly detaining and manhandling people. Thousands of vulnerable families are not leaving their homes. Sometimes volunteers pick up kids to take them to school. One school administrator told me that they have many children who are still attending school only to spend the day getting sleep because they are too afraid when they try to sleep at home at night. Ice's presence is in hospitals has been particularly disturbing. I was told about a NICU where half the babies aren't receiving visitors because their families are too scared that ICE will show up at the hospital. The same hospital worker said that when ICE is detaining people, they often injure them. So hospitals have developed protocols so that when ICE brings in injured detainees, the agents can no longer make decisions for the patient. That's right. The agents were trying to make healthcare decisions for the patient that they injured. Now, patients can be seen alone without an ICE agent present, but they're still in detention. People are scared, but they aren't standing down. And Minnesotans made it very clear to me that there is a way for everybody to get involved. There have been some high profile protests. Thousands marched again in Minneapolis on Friday as more than 50,000 had the Friday before braving sub zero temperatures. And then nationwide, this past Friday, marches all over the country. And while there's a lot of us who are participating in the protests, there's also a need for folks called constitutional observers. Sometimes you'll hear them called legal witnesses. The entire idea is accountability and advocacy. I was among 200 people who gathered for almost a couple hours to learn about best practices for documenting and reporting ice. The trainers shared information on what rights we have as observers and what rights the targeted immigrants have. Immigrants have the right to remain silent, not open the door unless there is a search warrant or arrest warrant or to refuse to sign anything and a right to legal representation. Now, this isn't like a citizen's right to a public defender, but there are many nonprofit legal services that are being provided for these folks, and the observing works. So ICE has begun using tactics where they try to lead observers away with Decoy cars. While the main convoy continues, Minnesotans continue to support their vulnerable neighbors, friends and families. The level of mutual aid is astounding. That means things like buying groceries for families, providing transportation for kids to and from school. I think most of us have heard these stories, but the scale at which they're occurring is what's really amazed me. I spoke with an organizer who says they started their grocery delivery program just four weeks ago. The first week they helped 50 families, the second week, more than double. And now on their fourth week, they've delivered to over 300 families, providing food for over 1400 people. So that's 1400 people too scared to leave their homes. Most have lost their jobs and require financial assistance to make rent or pay their phone bills. So they're raising and providing funds to cover these costs. For these folks, the level of generosity is just inspiring. Meanwhile, ice's actions continued to disgust me. One of the worst that I heard is vulnerable families received a link to a mutual aid request form to have groceries brought to them. So they filled them out, their address, the number of people in their household, and then when they thought food was arriving, ICE showed up at the door instead. That just, just awful. This level of deception is just obscene. Ice, as well as online extremists, have also been working to infiltrate the networks that Minnesotans have established. They. They've gotten into some signal groups and exposed the members identities online, threatening them. They've spread misinformation and they've spewed heat. But the community is there to motivate one another to keep going. At a Native American community gathering, one of the speakers said, don't let infiltration of signal groups deter you from what you're doing. That's what's effective against them. If they weren't effective, they wouldn't be trying to sew division. Sometimes after ICE detains folks, they release them and then file charges against them. Things like assault or interference. I've heard from organizers that ICE is using Minnesota as a testing ground. So Minnesotans are documenting all their efforts to pass on to other cities when ICE comes for them. For every terrible story about ICE snatching an innocent person off the street, there are 10 stories of Minnesotans coming together to support each other. We cannot let ICE win. Minneapolis and our cities nationwide must continue to stand strong against Trump and his administration's racist and violent agenda. And I urge you all to find a way to take action, be it protesting or donating, constitutional observing, or any way that helps people. Thank you all for listening and continuing to Call out these ongoing injustices. Let's go to my conversation with our friend Norm Ornstein. It's a great one, you know, for a change.

[Al Franken]

So, Norm, thank you for joining me. I'm in Minnesota, where we both grew up. You and I actually grew up. Startlingly, we didn't know each other, but very close to each other in St. Louis Park.

[Norm Ornstein]

There's a little age gap. I'm a little older than you.

[Al Franken]

Right.

[Norm Ornstein]

So we did not know each other growing up, but we were close. And that was St. Louis Park. Was this haven for people like us.

[Al Franken]

Yep. Minnesotans are. It's been rough out there and people are on edge.

[Podcast Host]

It's been a difficult time.

[Al Franken]

People are traumatized, especially in the Twin Cities area. Not just, but in the suburban areas as well. There are 3,000 border patrol out there, been out of control, terrorizing black people.

[Podcast Host]

And people of color Minnesotans.

[Al Franken]

And there are so many sickening stories. There's a lot of trauma out there. This week we've heard a lot more stories of American citizens being detained and roughed up. Or I did, 3,000 agents arresting neighbors, deporting them, separating families, taking kids from school. It's all very bad.

[Norm Ornstein]

It's worse than bad. It's been the kind of nightmare that you would expect in a full blown police state with lawless authorities. And that's what we've seen. And the level of sadism. We saw it obviously with the videos of Alex Preddy being being shot lying down, hands pinned on the pavement by five ICE agents while two of them, over a five second period, starting by shooting him in the back, shot him 10 times. And then instead of letting a doctor there to look at him and examine him, instead of standing in silence wondering what they had done, which if you genuinely believed that you had faced a threat and then realized that you killed somebody, is what would be the normal reaction of a human being. They exulted in it. And one of them went away clapping his hands instead of administering to him even if he had been dead. What police are trained to do is to administer to somebody they've shot. They counted the bullet holes, but that's only one part of it.

[Al Franken]

They stopped an investigation of it. They took his phone.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah, they took his phone. And my guess is they have erased whatever data happened to be on it, although we have plenty of evidence. And one of the interesting things to me, Al, is that one of the right's big stars, the radical right's big stars, Erik Erickson, who started out, you know, basically saying this stuff, you know, doesn't much matter. I'm still with Donald Trump. He's still better than the alternatives. When he got pushback after dismissing or embracing, I should say, the narrative that this had been instigated by Preddy, went on air, he has a very popular radio show and said, I've looked at all these videos multiple times. He was going to the aid of a woman who had been thrown to the ground by an ICE agent. And we know from the videos the woman was standing there recording this agent ran a substantial distance and knocked her to the ground. Pretty went over to help her up and while backing away they were assaulted and he was dragged down by this agent and then pounced on by four others. And while he was on the ground before they, one of them said he's got a gun. One of the others took one of their tear gas canisters or whatever they had and were pounding him on the head. But we also know al, that among the other things that they've done, and I think a picture that has been as stunning to many Americans even as the videos of Alex Preddy's assassination is this five year old boy standing there being taken by ICE agents wearing his bunny ears knit cap in the cold with his Spider man backpack being taken.

[Al Franken]

Off to be bait to taken to his house.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah, they've taken and that's what they've done. When they've decided not to violate the 4th and just storm into a house without a warrant. They've been holding little kids, including a five year old autistic kid as hostages to extort somebody to leave the house, grabbed them, flown them to Texas where they interrogate them, say, okay, you're legal, you're a citizen. And then they just dump them in Texas.

[Al Franken]

They have to get their way back to Minnesota.

[Norm Ornstein]

I mean, you know, this stuff is still beyond the pale.

[Al Franken]

I wanted to go through the immediate response from the administration figures like Kristi Noem, who said the fact that he carried a gun.

[Podcast Host]

Two magazines, which that.

[Al Franken]

Even wasn't accurate, meant he arrived at the scene to inflict maximum damage on individuals and to kill law enforcement. And is she going to survive this? Is she going to. I think she was on the ropes.

[Podcast Host]

For a day maybe.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah. I fear that Trump, if he got rid of her, would be admitting a mistake and that's the protection that she has. But you know, she then stepped back from it a little bit when the heat got too great and said the one thing that I thought might get her fired, which is I was only following orders and we know how that excuse.

[Al Franken]

Did she really say that or.

[Norm Ornstein]

She said, everything I did was ordered by Stephen Miller and Donald Trump.

[Al Franken]

Okay, I saw that, and I didn't actually, I thought someone must have made that up. I thought, I can't.

[Norm Ornstein]

She's trying to wriggle her way out of it because she was the first one out there declaring, declaring before we knew anything that he was a domestic terrorist. Then Stephen Miller even said, well, I was relying on the information we got immediately from the Customs and Border Patrol people on the ground, and then said they might have exceeded their authority. Now they're trying to dance away from what they said because the evidence is too powerful and because there's been a big backlash for the first time, even among not a lot, but a significant, if small, number of Republicans in office.

[Al Franken]

I mean, the American people reacted to this, and Trump figured it out after this.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Al Franken]

And is at least pretending to address this. They did get rid of Bevino. He's gone now. And they got Homan in, who sounds more reasonable, doesn't he?

[Norm Ornstein]

He sounds reasonable.

[Al Franken]

Yes.

[Norm Ornstein]

And we also have to note that Bovino is gone from Minnesota. We don't know where he is. If I had to guess, he has not been fired or disciplined. They just took him away because he became the face of this sadistic evil Homan, who I have said many times before, if you look at the pictures of him, if central casting went looking for a prison guard at Buchenwald, Tom Homan would be right at the top of their list. Well, Homan's been doing this for decades and through a number of presidents, including.

[Al Franken]

The first Trump administration, where they did separation of kids.

[Norm Ornstein]

He also was viewed positively by Obama because back then he followed the restrictions of that administration. Then he became untethered from any of those. And of course, what we also know is that he shouldn't be in this job, period, because the FBI caught him in a video sting taking $50,000 in a kava bag, where he promised. This was before Trump took office, where he promised that he would steer jobs from the budget of the Department of Homeland Security and ICE to their favored clients. What he's done since, what they did was to stop the FBI investigation, stop the potential prosecution, and put him back in office. That's, of course, you know, for this administration, the grift is a. Is an asset, not a liability. He started out talking about how he had met with Governor Waltz and met with Mayor Fry and met with many in the police department, and they, While they didn't agree on everything, they had a good dialogue going, and they were going to dial back. But the more he talked, the more you realize that this was a bunch of empty rhetoric. They are very likely to pull a large number of the 3,000 agents that they have in Minnesota who were there because Trump said two things. One was the Somali people are disgusting people, and we're going to get rid of the floor fraud, which has nothing to do with their immigrant immigration status. The overwhelming majority are citizens.

[Al Franken]

90 to 95% of Somalis are citizens. So they come in and at first they kind of go after Somalis and realize that's the case, but they still. I talked to my Somali advisor here in Minnesota. He basically said they did go after Somalis anyway and beat people up who are citizens. And I've heard that a number of times here as I've been here.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah. And, you know, he. But we have to also remember that when Trump called for this massive movement into Minnesota, he used the word retribution. It's retribution against Tim Walls, who he doesn't like, going back to the 2024 campaign, against Jacob Fry, who he doesn't like, against a blue state that voted against him.

[Al Franken]

By the way, he says they. He says we didn't. They said Minnesota didn't.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah, I know.

[Podcast Host]

You saw that Trump claims that he won Minnesota three times and that there.

[Al Franken]

Was just fraud and that he won it three times, and he was the first Republican to win him win it since Nixon.

[Norm Ornstein]

So we are going to have a little time, I hope, to talk about the other related story, which is Tulsi Gabbard, the head of National Intelligence, joining an army of FBI agents to raid the Fulton county election facility, where they're now claiming that there was massive fraud and that Trump won the 2020 election handily.

[Al Franken]

Well, he announced that at Davos. He said. Did you? I don't know if you saw that whole speech, but he said at Davos that breaking news that people are about to be indicted, that war in Ukraine wouldn't have happened if the election in 2020 hadn't been stolen.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

And that that's about to be proved and people are going to be indicted. And that's breaking news. He said. Although we haven't heard. We haven't heard it.

[Norm Ornstein]

While he said that the war in Ukraine would never have been started if he had been elected or in office in 2020, January 2021, he also promised multiple times during the campaign that if and when he got elected and got in office, that war would end on day one.

[Al Franken]

Oh, on this campaign. Yes. Yes.

[Norm Ornstein]

So, you know this reflects his broader credibility. But I'm alarmed by what happened in Georgia because I think it's a beta test for what they're going to try.

[Al Franken]

To do in the midterms.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah, midterms. And in the fall of 2028. But, you know, going back, let me circle back to where we started. And you started by talking about growing up in St. Louis Park. You know, Tom Friedman just wrote about this again last week.

[Al Franken]

He's a park graduate.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah, yeah. And he mentioned you and me and the Cohn brothers and a couple of others. But he talked about the idyllic atmosphere then, the fact that the values reflected in St. Louis park were the values we expected in Minnesota as we grew up. The Republican Party in Minnesota was kind of a model for the country of what you want a political party to be. Basically a party in the center, a party with very ethical and smart and strong people in office or running for office, interested in healing wounds, broadening support, solving problems.

[Podcast Host]

My dad was a Republican.

[Norm Ornstein]

And even before Trump, we saw the radical right, not conservative right wing extremism, begin to take over the Minnesota Republican Party. And now it's completely there. And there are two strands here to talk about, Al, as you, you know, talk about the tens of thousands going out in 20 below weather to, you know, express support for decency and against these thugs and the number of people who've said, you know, I wasn't into politics before and I'm retired or I'm comfortable at home, but I look at this and I can't stand by, you know, what we used to call Minnesota nice is reflected in the. I think the vast majority of the people who live in the Twin Cities and in other parts of Minnesota. The history of the state is a checkered one. Minnesota was a leader in vicious anti Semitism and racism going back to the 20s and 30s. You know, frankly, when I was a kid in the 50s there, in the early 60s, it was a very segregated city. There was all of that. But the fact is we overcame those pathologies and really became a state of decency. But it's not uniform. The Republicans in the Minnesota House and Senate, the Republicans in the congressional delegation, have been simply awful. They have not spoken up for their own voters or constituents. Tom Emmer, I think, is the worst of them. And Emmer, who made a major effort to try and get Somalis to vote Republican, has abandoned that community entirely.

[Al Franken]

Emmer's the majority whip in the House.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah. You know, he's a part of their leadership. And, you know, if, if we'd gone back 20 years, 10 years, 15 years, he would have looked at Emmer as being a sort of standard issue, very conservative Republican, not a bad human being. Now, I think he's just plain vile. He's given up every element of his fundamental humanity. But there's another part of this, because when you and I grew up, and even up until recently, Minnesota has been the home, Minneapolis especially, the home of a very large number of the most prominent corporations in the country. The Fortune 500 companies, General Mills, General Foods, Honeywell, Target, Medtronic and more. We thought, boy, this is the kind of corporate culture that there ought to be in the nation. They're supportive of the arts. They're supportive of all the different elements of the community.

[Al Franken]

And they have not stood up here.

[Norm Ornstein]

No. You know, they issued a statement that was pathetic. It was, you know, let's de escalate the tensions without pointing out who was responsible for the mayhem. Minnesota had no tensions before these 3,000 occupying forces came in.

[Al Franken]

Trump. Yeah. I mean, Trump has tried to bring down the tensions by he called walls and fry and said he had a great conversation with him.

[Norm Ornstein]

You know, when you look at Trump trying to, you know, de escalate, as it were, when you look at the fact that we're not hearing from Stephen Miller or Kristi Noem right now, they're not out there with their inflammatory comments on social media or their inflammatory comments in their press conferences. This is more an attempt to alter the message and the PR than it is an attempt to change the fundamental policies. And let's remember that whether or not it's true, and we don't have definitive evidence, ICE agents and Border Patrol agents get extra money or privileges with every arrest they make, whether they're ultimately citizens or people who are here undocumented or those who are actually criminals or those who are just doing their jobs. What we know is that Stephen Miller issued an order which is to all of these ICE people, 3,000 people should be arrested and deported every day. And so that has not been, as best we can tell, rescinded. And we also know from a comment made by a senior administration official reported in Punchbowl News yesterday that that senior official said, you know, this is all an attempt to divert attention and take it away. We're not serious about actually making any reforms. We're going to try and drag it out enough and, you know, make some promises. The Democrats will go along and we'll get the funding.

[Al Franken]

Well, what are the reforms that the.

[Podcast Host]

Democrats are.

[Al Franken]

Demanding in order? Because the Democrats all Were all on board on this, or did we lose one or two?

[Norm Ornstein]

We're going to lose a few. You know, one of the people who's just, I think, desperately in need of help is John Fetterman of Pennsylvania, who, after Renee Goode was murdered, basically said, I'm all behind ice. There's nothing wrong. His wife, who was an illegal immigrant, to use their terms for many years, put a message out on social media decrying the violence. Fetterman then did, after Alex Preddy's murder, another sort of namby pamby. It's, you know, we have to deal with excesses and all of that, but once again, supporting the mission and the attempt to do this massive deportation of people in the country. And there may be others. Democrats, on the other hand, have Rand Paul, who has been very strongly critical of the stuff that's going on, but, you know, you need 41 votes to block it with a filibuster to block the funding. The question is, as you said, what do they get in return? And one hopes that whatever they get also includes some reduction in funding because they're pouring more money into this effort to hire, at a breakneck pace, more people for ICE without any vetting or training. And we know they're getting a lot of Proud Boys and Oath Keepers.

[Al Franken]

And I have a question about that. The recruiting.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

And I think that you've seen these thugs. I do believe that they're. First of all, there must be some of the January 6th rioters.

[Norm Ornstein]

Rioters who beat up police and tried to murder them. I'm sure many of them are now there. And Enrique Tarrio, the head of the Proud Boys, announced that he was joining ice.

[Al Franken]

Oh, that's right. That's right. So what are the Democrats asking for?

[Norm Ornstein]

They want to remove the masks.

[Al Franken]

They want to have body cams, wearing.

[Norm Ornstein]

Body cams, just like police have to do. If you're law enforcement, you should abide by those rules. No more violations of the Fourth Amendment, busting into homes without a judicial warrant. No attacking protesters. Or they're not even mostly protesters. They are witnesses recording who are not doing anything other than standing or blowing whistles or even exercising their First Amendment rights by shouting. No more, you know, beating them up and sending them to the ground. No more spraying people with toxic stuff, including people who are doing nothing wrong, and punishment those who violate state and local laws or federal laws for that matter. And Tom Homan today said, we will hold anybody who violates the standards accountable. And, you know, you have to just laugh at that because at the same time, as Tim Waltz has said, while he's tried to get it, no one has given him the names of the two agents.

[Al Franken]

Well, speaking of that, shouldn't one of the requirements here be that there be.

[Podcast Host]

Investigations of both the Renee Good and Alex Preddy's murders?

[Norm Ornstein]

And investigations done at minimum jointly by local authorities, state authorities, and the federal government? But, you know, at the same time, we know that both Todd Blanche, the deputy Attorney General, and Pam Bondi, the Attorney General, have said that they are doing no investigation of Renee Good's murderer. You know, Jonathan Ross, we know his name. We don't know the names of the others. We don't know the names of the agent who held Alex Preddy down while he was murdered with 10 shots starting in his back.

[Al Franken]

They have finally been put on leave. It took them a few days.

[Norm Ornstein]

They. They put the two of them on leave. We don't know who they are. You can't do a proper investigation that way. But we know that there are other just terrible things going on and continuing to go on in other states. They apparently have moved out of Maine. And I suspect that the reason they moved out of Maine is that Susan Collins basically said, I'm the chair of the Appropriations Committee and I'm getting killed on this, and I have not done what I should do, which is to condemn the illegal action that you're carrying out in Maine.

[Al Franken]

Yeah, she voted the wrong way today.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah. Of course, she supports full funding of Ice Age and Homeland Security without preconditions. Now, she may go along with a compromise, but, you know, her position is unacceptable, to put it in polite terms.

[Podcast Host]

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[Podcast Host]

And we are back with Norm Horns.

[Al Franken]

So we were talking about how Americans feel about this and Trump is 18 points underwater on immigration now.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yep.

[Al Franken]

Under under 40% approval for his policy that is that going to be motivation for him changing some of the things that we're doing? Or as Stephen Miller just running the show?

[Norm Ornstein]

Well, clearly Stephen Miller is running the show. I saw that Reuben Gallego, the senator from Arizona today, said that his demand as part of these negotiations is that Stephen Miller resign or be fired, which is not likely to happen because, you know, Trump loves Stephen Miller, which tells you something about both Trump and Stephen Miller. Yeah, but Miller is a huge figure inside this White House with enormous influence as a deputy chief of staff. There are at least some suggestions that. There are some suggestions that Trump is really losing it and that Stephen Miller is the guy who's kind of keeping the whole act together. I don't know if that's true or not, but I think the last one to go is. Will be Miller. He could get rid of Noem. He could ultimately fire Bovino, who is, as we know, has, you know, marched around with a Nazi like coat, has lied to a judge multiple times, saying that he was attacked when he went after protesters, when in fact, you know, video shows that he was the instigator. And I wish the judge would finally hold him in contempt and put him in jail for perjury and, you know, abuse of the judicial system. But Miller will be the last to go. And, you know, Trump is going to try. We know what he's going to try to do here, Al. We know that he's already doing it. He's trying to change the rhetoric, lower the temperature with some of the policies that are going forward for enough time that he can get the funding back. And once he has the funding, they'll ramp it up again.

[Al Franken]

Now, by the way, we're recording this on Thursday. This drops on Sunday. So by now, you might be either proven wrong or right whether it happens.

[Norm Ornstein]

Or not, and whether it happens in the most likely way, which is that they just postpone a final decision, let it go for a week or two until they can reach a deal or not reach a deal. Let it go for a week or so until the House gets back. Hard to say. The other development here, though, that's relevant as we talk about Stephen Miller and his position. Three quarters of House Democrats have now endorsed an impeachment resolution against Kristi Noem. Kristi Noem is, you know, vile. Doesn't even begin to describe it. Corrupt, grifter, sadistic.

[Al Franken]

The picture she took at the El Salvador prison.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Was pretty amazing, wasn't it?

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah. And, you know, While modeling her $50,000 watch, as these people were stacked up like logs. But they have endorsed an impeachment resolution. We do not have an impeachment resolution yet ready for the floor. They are likely to first, do some hearings, hearings that point out the abuses of her office that Kristi Noem is engaged in. And then they will submit a resolution of impeachment with a number of articles. Under the House rules, impeachment resolutions are privileged. Have to come up and have to get a vote.

[Al Franken]

And they need what, three Republicans or.

[Norm Ornstein]

Three Republicans, assuming that every Democrat goes along.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Norm Ornstein]

And that vote can be a motion to table, but it's still a vote on whether you're going to impeach Kristi Noem. And, you know, it's entirely possible that she will be impeached. She won't be convicted by the Senate. But if Kristi Noem gets impeached, it will put even more of a spotlight on the degree to which the Department of Homeland Security, instead of doing what it's supposed to do, has basically waged a war on Americans, American citizens and people who are here, either legally now or going through the legal process and doing everything that they are supposed to do, all as a matter of intimidation and for no reason other than to show that they can.

[Al Franken]

Now, Homan has said that he wants more access to prisons in Minnesota so he can deport them. Right. But we've been doing that. Minnesota has been doing that.

[Podcast Host]

I believe.

[Norm Ornstein]

It'S a falsehood on his part. Remember one of the houses we've had this other sort of stunning and famous picture of an elderly Hmong citizen in Minnesota, where they beat down the door of his house.

[Al Franken]

He was just in his underwear, his socks and a little blanket over him.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Below 0.

[Norm Ornstein]

Below 0. Threw him into a car and arrested him. Drove him around before bringing him back and said that they were. First they said that he was harboring two violent criminal fugitives. Entirely false. Then they gave the name of the person that they were after, who it turned out, had been in prison for two years. Minnesota has cooperated fully in terms of turning over violent, undocumented people in their jails and prisons. What Homan said is wrong. Homan also basically, you know, used this opportunity of his press conference to rip into Joe Biden, saying that we had completely open borders. Anybody could come in, and we had thousands, tens of thousands of illegals who were violent coming in.

[Al Franken]

But, I mean, Biden did have more of an open border and maybe shouldn't and shouldn't have.

[Norm Ornstein]

I don't think Biden made big mistakes early on in his presidency, some of which was around what is the internationally recognized law over how you deal with somebody applying for asylum. And a lot of the people who came in were applying for asylum. He tightened up towards the end. But the fact is that, you know, we have Trump blowing up people in boats outside Venezuela. Another one just a little while ago saying that they're bringing fentanyl into the country and there is no fentanyl there.

[Al Franken]

No, it's coming from Mexico, though.

[Norm Ornstein]

And the fentanyl that came in from Mexico in many instances was coming in from people that Trump pulled pardoned. So this is just, you know, sort of farcical on his part on Homan's part. And to blame everything on Biden is just shows you that Homan as an honest broker here, especially since the word honest for a guy who took $50,000 in a bribe in a cava bag doesn't apply to begin with. But as you know, a broker with integrity here doesn't fly.

[Al Franken]

Minnesota, as I've been around the state, Minnesotans have been activated. Yeah, I was at a church where they were training people to be constitutional witnesses. And there were 200 people receiving training. And this group had trained 25,000 people. And the job is basically you sign up, you're trained, they have an app that you get a signal that ICE is around in a certain spot and to go there and to bear witness and be a constitutional witness. And if someone is being stopped and arrested, you can you film it and you, if they tell you to get out of there, you have a right to be there. And you, if the person's being arrested, you can take their information and who their family is and then you report that back. And this was 200 people of different ages. And over and over again, people in Minnesota are doing that. They're taking food to school. There are so many families that have to stay at their home and people are delivering food to people and they are just standing up and making sure.

[Podcast Host]

That they're taking care of their neighbors.

[Norm Ornstein]

So you've actually a little bit raised another issue from Tom Homan's press conference this morning. One of the people who he recognized to ask a question was from one of these farcical crazy right wing outlets who started by praising everything that they had done and then talking about how all of this was being paid for. He didn't say George Soros, but, you know, by big financiers. And they were doing all of this illegal stuff on signal chats. And what was Homan doing about it? And Homan said, well, I can't really talk about anything that's going on, but you can be sure we're following and there will be consequences.

[Al Franken]

People are getting the Signal chats and they're going to blow whistles and they're going to demonstrate and they're going to film and document and help people who are maybe being arrested and make sure that you get who their family is and contact, you know, you don't contact them. You, you report that back to, to the website and, and that is taken care of.

[Norm Ornstein]

Now can signal chats be abused? Yes. By Pete Hegson?

[Al Franken]

Yes. Telling the hooties that we're about to.

[Norm Ornstein]

Abomina and you know, giving up national security information, vital secrets while he was on signal chat. But this is ridiculous and you know, it's just not what you would hope we would see in America. But it is what we're seeing. And there's another element of this that we have not yet dealt with. And I wish that there had been a question of Homan on this front as well. And that is what's going on. You mentioned the prisons in Minnesota but we know that they're creating their own detention camps at Fort Snelling and elsewhere. But they're taking a lot of these people from Minnesota I mentioned earlier, taking them down to Texas. They are releasing some of the citizens and people who are here illegally. Well, without bringing them back, I mean which is just cruelty. But they're also putting some of them in their detention camps and these camps not just in Texas. Remember Alligator Alcatraz that The grifter Ron DeSantis, the governor of Florida put up in the middle of the Everglades? And there are hundreds of people who were sent to these places. Some have died. We know we've seen at least a little bit of video suggesting that people are not getting their medications. One was strangled when he asked for his medication. The El Paso medical examiner said it was a homicide while the people in charge of the detention facility said it was a suicide. His throat had been completely crushed. We know that they've disappeared people. They have no record of many who've been there. We had a six year old girl who had sickle cell disease and another set of ailments. She didn't get her medication and she died in one of these facilities. And this is not just about what they're doing on the streets of Minneapolis. And everybody of course should listen to this incredibly powerful song that Bruce Springsteen wrote just a few days ago called the Streets of Minneapolis. But it's also what's happening after they pick up these people and send them to these concentration camps in different parts of the country.

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[Al Franken]

A couple days ago I went to the Somali market. The yeah, the Carmel Mall.

[Podcast Host]

I Don't know if you've been there.

[Al Franken]

There are very, very few people there. People are scared. They're scared to turn out now Somalis. As you know, 90 to 95% of Somalis in Minnesota are citizens. And they came here, Lutheran Services brought, started bringing them in the 90s. They were having a civil war there. They had refugee status. And so many, of course, Somalis are.

[Podcast Host]

Now were born here.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yep.

[Al Franken]

But I got reports that as soon.

[Podcast Host]

As ICE and Border Patrol came in.

[Al Franken]

Remember, Trump said that we're sending them in because of the Somali fraud, and there was some fraud committed by some Somalis here. But that has nothing to do with ice. ICE doesn't do that. This is, in fact, the guy who led that investigation has resigned when they were going to make him and other lawyers in the Minnesota Attorney's Office investigate Renee Goode's widow. And so he resigned. But they are afraid. And I've heard more than one story about Somalis being beaten up by ice. And I talked to my former Somali advisor in my Senate office, and he says that he thinks that Trump is doing this as a way to drive down Somali turnout in the midterms. And I don't know if that's true, but, you know, it may make a difference in an election.

[Norm Ornstein]

It certainly could if we even have the election to begin with. But they clearly want to try and find ways to both justify their voter suppression and take away votes. And let's remember that while Trump talked about the fraud, he more broadly just slimed Somali people. He, you know, basically said that they were all of them horrible people, low IQ people, garbage. Repeated some of that when he was at Davos as well. So this is so fundamentally openly racist that, you know, takes your breath away.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Speaking of which. So Native Americans, here's a quiz. Are Native Americans, are they Americans? But ICE has been going after Native Americans.

[Podcast Host]

And I was at a Native American community gathering in South Minneapolis the other.

[Al Franken]

Day, talked to a number of people who have said that they have, because I guess you would say Native Americans are of color. They have gone up to them and again beat them up, arrested them, and even sent them to El Paso into Texas. And it is astounding how vile these people are.

[Norm Ornstein]

The irony that you're doing an immigration enforcement and going after the people who were here before any of those who are trying to do this enforcement is one thing, but there's another element to this, and it also circles us back to Kristi Noem. They arrested four members of the Sioux Nation who were homeless in Minneapolis put three of them into one of their facilities. I'm pretty sure they did it at Whipple to start with. Wouldn't release their names, said that they were sending them elsewhere, and then said, we will let you know where they are and who they are to the tribe if you sign an agreement on immigration with ice. So this is kidnapping and extortion, and more broadly, and this is something where a judge is going to perhaps rule soon on whether there is any legal authority for all of these people to be in Minnesota. It's another reason why they may be pulling so many of them out is that Bondi said, we will get them out of Minnesota if you give us your voter records.

[Al Franken]

Bondi demanded the voting records, which we will take ICE out or some ICE out if you give. Now, what does the voting records have.

[Podcast Host]

To do.

[Al Franken]

With immigration?

[Podcast Host]

How many states have given their voter rolls to the Justice Department?

[Norm Ornstein]

It's in the Constitution that federal elections are run by the states. The president and the Justice Department have no role in state based elections. Congress can pass a law that affects federal elections and supersede what the states have done, but it's illegitimate to demand the voter rolls. And the voter rolls are being demanded for a couple of reasons. One reason is that Trump, not just in Georgia, where they've seized the records in Fulton county in a very flimsy pretext, but in Minnesota, is that they want to get not just how people have registered or even something about how they might have voted, but there's a lot more sensitive information there that you can use to go after them before an election to see, you know, if there are ways of using that information against people you view as having voted against you otherwise. The second reason is, of course, as we see in Georgia, that Trump continues to be utterly obsessed with the idea that he, first of all, didn't just win in 2016 against Hillary Clinton, but that he won in a landslide and that he won the popular vote.

[Al Franken]

Right. He lost by what, about a half.

[Norm Ornstein]

A million votes, 3 million in 2020. He wants to bring charges for the 2020 election against people like Brad Raffensperger, the Secretary of State in Georgia, who denied him when he called and asked for the 11,370 votes or whatever it was. That was the margin.

[Al Franken]

It was the secretary to say, 11,780 votes. Just find me 11,780 votes. And wouldn't it be funny if that's what they found in Fulton County?

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah. And now they're probably going to try and bring charges against him and other election officials. And they're trying to make this case, which is why Tulsi Gabbard, who's one of the worst, you know, the idea that our national intelligence is being run by somebody who's close to Russia, among others, and who's fundamentally a lunatic, is down there on the scene while the FBI sees these ballot boxes is that you've had a couple of these right wing crazies and probably joined by foreign actors spinning this notion that Barack Obama funneled money through different sources so that he could use it and that he had the help of foreign countries to distort the election that Trump won handily in 2020. And so they're trying to make this into a national security, foreign interference issue, bringing in Tulsi Gabbard. And they're no doubt going to try to distort the information and use this to intimidate election officials, hoping that that might help them if they continue to hold elections in the midterms and in the next presidential contest. It's a beta test for voter suppression.

[Al Franken]

It's a rough time.

[Norm Ornstein]

Yeah. We're in Minnesota because it's very, it's important to the people of Minnesota that, you know, everybody who has respect in the state, who's been a significant figure in its politics and society is there to demonstrate that this is not right.

[Podcast Host]

Well, thanks, Norm. Well, I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kottke, the great Leo Kocki. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next week.

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[Norm Ornstein]

Are you really buying a car online on Autotrader right now?

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[Al Franken]

I.

[Norm Ornstein]

You can really have it delivered or pick it up. I think kid is walking up the slide.

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[Norm Ornstein]

Autotrader, buy your car online?

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