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- [00:02]
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David Weigel
What do you think makes the perfect snack?
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SpinQuest Disclaimer Voice
Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.
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David Weigel
Could you be more specific?
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SpinQuest Disclaimer Voice
When it's cravinient.
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David Weigel
Okay.
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SpinQuest Disclaimer Voice
Like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at am, pm. Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at am pm.
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David Weigel
I'm seeing a pattern here.
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SpinQuest Disclaimer Voice
Well, yeah, we're talking about what I.
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David Weigel
Crave, which is anything from am, pm.
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David Weigel
Of.
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Podcast Host
Hey everybody, we got a disturbing one today. As usual. My guest David Weigel, who who writes for the news website Semaphore, joins me again. He's a great guest. And we're going to discuss the never ending government shutdown, which is about to become the longest in our history, surpassing the 20182019 shutdown during Donald Trump's first term. And with federal workers working without pay and 42 million Americans about to lose their SNAP benefits, that means millions of children going hungry in the richest country in the world. Of course, that's not necessary. The Trump administration can activate a SNAP contingency fund which was approved for use during the longest shutdown in our nation's history during Donald Trump's first term. And hey, didn't we learn in hillbilly elegy that JD Vance grew up poor and benefited from food stamps? What was that? Now he's willing to let millions of children go hungry? You know, and he seems like such a good guy. Speaking of good guys, Chinese Premier Xi met with Trump in South Korea and according to China experts came away with a very good deal for China. China will now sell us rare earth minerals and buy American soybeans in exchange for concessions from Trump to lower tariffs. Boy, that all seemed unnecessary, didn't it? And Trump announced that we're going to test nuclear weapons again because other nuclear powers are testing theirs. Except they're not. No country has tested nuclear weapons since North Korea did it last in 2017. The question is, is Trump confused or is he lying? Or of course, both. We'll be discussing these matters in the shutdown with David Weigel of Semaphore. It's a great one, you know, for a change. Well, we're approaching the longest shutdown in history and 42 million Americans are about to lose their SNAP benefits. Millions of children are going to go hungry and they don't have to. There's a contingency fund, right, that we can access and that's been approved before many times.
- [03:56]
David Weigel
Yes, there is a contingency fund. I'm not shocked anymore when Trump's OLC or Trump's attorneys say, oh, we can do the thing that's illegal or oh, we can't do the thing that is legal. But that's basically what's happening here. There is a contingency fund. We're just hitting the point where SNAP benefits are not being paid out. The there is the money to cover it. I don't need to bring up the ballroom. There's just no cost cutting happening at the government at all. You would think the Department of Homeland Security employees who keep making oddball memes would be non essential. They're still doing it. So, yes, the administration could tap this money and it's not doing it because it wants to put more pressure on Democrats. And a lot of the bets the Trump administration makes are not just about the legality, but about his ability to have half the country believe what he says and the rest of the country not know what to think. That feels like what's happening here, given the way they're not spending this money.
- [04:50]
Podcast Host
This is going to affect millions of MAGA voters in red states. And red states have very high proportion of needing snap. What is the Republican strategy here? To blame the Democrats? Or are they saying this is mainly black welfare queens receiving this and or what is their strategy?
- [05:14]
David Weigel
Well, it's a mix of both the people who are saying this is welfare queens getting it using different terms. That's more conservative media. And I've seen this. I try to monitor as much conservative media I can because it's just covering this in a different way. And I've seen that of, oh, the money that's going out is to people who don't need it, who abuse it. You've seen conservative commentators say, well, look at the obesity rates. Maybe these people could use a couple weeks without food, without calories. Or I've seen some that are saying, well, look at the, the recent immigrants, the first generation Americans who are getting this. But you're right, this is a Republican coalition that to their pride has changed a lot. It is, it has more working class voters who are on snap than it would have 10, 20 years ago, the last even compared to the last shutdown, 2019. And yeah, their answer has been while conservative media is saying this is for people who shouldn't be getting it anyway, the administration and people like Josh Hawley in the Senate are saying well we want to fund this but Democrats are not prioritizing it. They prefer to have the fight about it or I guess a couple fights about this than to just tap that fund and say here is something for the people who need it. And the president really has been disengaged on this. But when he engages it's what you were pointing to him just saying it's Democrats fault.
- [06:30]
Podcast Host
Well, employees unions are calling for an end to this thing. The air traffic controllers, the American Federation of the Government Employees have called for both sides to end the shutdown. That's not going to happen, right?
- [06:47]
David Weigel
No. And that, that was significant because these are, these are both unions that support Democrats. And the Democratic response has been we have a strategy and we're talking to them. We're not ending it yet. I talked to Ken Martin from your state yesterday and I asked him about that because he's, he's very proudly the first union card holding DNC chair. He's really, you know, labor attorney. Yeah, I'm surprised by that. But then I, I checked and I couldn't find it said he was wrong. And I asked about that in particular and he said no, it's important to, it's important to fight for this and we're fighting for their jobs. Republicans reacted to that thinking, well, now the union has come in and said to stop this, they're going to have to give it up. And the Democrats answer is no, we're at the end of this. You should be paid back anyway because that is, that's another thing.
- [07:32]
Podcast Host
The Trump administration, Trump is threatening not to pay.
- [07:34]
David Weigel
Yes, exactly.
- [07:35]
Podcast Host
He's, he actually said he's going to pay some of them back and some of them don't deserve it and they're going to determine them. He's said that, right?
- [07:44]
David Weigel
He has said that. He's, he said that he's, he's, it's Democrats who are mostly going to suffer from this. That's I think an indicate, I mean he's not really articulating completely what he thinks. But when he says that I hear he's thinking federal workers who didn't vote for him anyway. This is the target of their layoffs in the last year has mostly been what are agencies that Republicans don't like, that don't employ many Republicans that have lots of liberals who live in Maryland, Virginia and D.C. who work for them. Let's get rid of them. Same approach here. So even though each shutdown, not every single shutdown, but recent shutdowns, there's been legislation passed to say, okay, well next time we're going to have some cushions. Some, some, some way this is less harmful, some way the government gets funded, some way our debts are paid or I guess the interest on the debt is paid and money back to people who were furloughed. And the administration is threatening not to do that. That's right. Yeah.
- [08:35]
Podcast Host
It's threatening not to pay some of the employees or furloughed. And how would he choose who they've.
- [08:43]
David Weigel
Been just running everything through through OMB and Russ Vote and saying, well, the executive office of the president determined. I mean, they've been very emboldened by the Supreme Court this year in many ways. But especially when the Supreme Court's judgments, whenever something gets there, have had this theme that we believe in the power of the executive branch to run the government. And if somebody sues and says, hey, you can't do that, I'm a federal employee, well, their interest is less than the interest of the president and governing the way that, that he wants to. He's in office. He's the sovereign. You've read parts of the Constitution and that's how we view it. So, yeah, trying it and then going to court and hoping that they win, you can almost just put a skip key in here for try it, go to court, hope they win. Because that is a lot of the administration's strategy. If they close an agency down or shutter an agency without actually getting rid of it, they go to, sometimes they go right to the Supreme Court with emergency petitions. Sometimes they wait for people to sue, usually in Maryland or D.C. and then go to the court and say, we need emergency relief. They've gotten very bold. I would almost say hubristic, but hubristic implies they might lose. Very bold with just doing this stuff that everyone knows is legally questionable and then seeing if they can beast it out.
- [10:02]
Podcast Host
Does Trump seem to care about whether the government gets back? I mean, it seems like the government functions the way he wants it to anyway, whether it's open or not.
- [10:12]
David Weigel
No, that's a really good point. This has been a theme of the House not coming back into session. There's nothing that Republicans are terribly worried about that's not getting done. So backing up a week, I guess one of the other pressure points usually to end a shutdown is paying the troops. And you'll see every TV ad, Republicans in the congressional committees put up ads that say, say your local Democrat voted against funding the troops because they didn't vote for the CR et cetera. And the administration said well we're going to figure something out. They talked about using tariff resources. And then the solution more recently has been Andrew is Timothy Mellon. Yeah. The Mellon dynast who is one of the biggest Republican donors in the history of the country, saying he'll float that and he'll float this paycheck. Well that took the pressure off. So they can still run those ads and say Democrats vote again. They'll run those ads anyway. But if you're for Mike Johnson, those Republicans, every time it's gotten a little bit self parroting because Johnson loves to answer that he's a constitutional attorney or he used to be and then he just won't refer to anything that he ever litigated or learned.
- [11:16]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [11:16]
David Weigel
Well, yeah, the president wants to do this and we support it.
- [11:18]
Podcast Host
He, he litigated the 2020 election. Right. He tried to go to the Supreme Court.
- [11:25]
David Weigel
Oh, and before that he was, he was trying to get this is the speaker we're talking about basically religious liberty lawsuits that now we're succeeding because it's a 6, 3 Supreme Court. Yeah. But I'm just bringing that up because it's getting a little bit silly. He'll mention his history here and then what his history is the attorney tells him is that he trusts the President and the president wants to try something, he should try it. So yeah, House Republicans have taken themselves out of this. They don't have a, with three. I mean Tom Massey doesn't like this in Kentucky. Kevin Carley, who's one of these Republicans who is going to be drawn not out of his seat, but he's going to be in a very Democratic seat that's hard to win. If this measure passes in California next week, he's in D.C. saying they should come back very little else. I mean there are, there are 220 Republicans in the House and most of them are fine with just giving their power to the president and letting him.
- [12:13]
Podcast Host
Do what he wants when, when the government shut down. Mike Lee said the Russell vote has been thinking about this since puberty. Do we have that audio, Peter?
- [12:24]
David Weigel
Russ Vogt, the OMB director has been dreaming about this moment, preparing this moment since puberty. Russ Vogt has a plan and that plan is going to succeed in empowering further empowering Trump. This is going to be the Democrats worst nightmare and it's of their own making. Okay, he sounds broken up about that. Yeah.
- [12:45]
Podcast Host
Vote has said that he wants here, can we play Vogt's audio?
- [12:51]
David Weigel
We want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected. We want when they wake up in the morning, we want them to not want to go to work.
- [12:59]
Podcast Host
So they're enjoying this.
- [13:01]
David Weigel
Yes, that's that's been this tension where in public what Lee said is not you're supposed to say. And that Vote clip came from conservative policy speech where there was a camera on. But they were not expecting that TO I think ProPublica found it. They were not expecting that to be blasted out. But they've written this down. They've written this down in many, many formats. Not just brows of 2025, but the idea that if you stop the government's funding stream that could be used to cut off things you don't want to fund. Yeah, they said they've been saying that for a while. So in March when Democrats decided to Senate Democrats decided to keep the government funded for the rest. Well, last six months that was one thing they were saying is we've listened to Russ Votin. He would use a shutdown to start cutting things would embolden them. And this gets lost sometimes in the coverage. You'll see a question of Democrats about why don't they just vote for the cr Everything changed because of empowerment rescissions. Once, once Democrats saw that they could fund the government and they could get something they wanted funded and then vote could say psych and pull it away from them either just by not spending the money or by having Congress.
- [14:08]
Podcast Host
Well, they, they've not spent the money. A lot in and especially targeting during the shutdown, targeting a lot of Democratic districts, projects. Right. Billions and billions of dollars.
- [14:22]
David Weigel
Oh yeah. And that theme that has been. Yeah, you've summed it up very well that they will see what they can get away with and they usually get away with it. And courts either act too slowly or say, look, there are people's hundreds of thousands of people's lives beyond the snap. That's 42 million hundreds of thousands of people who work for the federal government affected and they have lives and they're told that they're not going to have their job anymore. They might look for another job. They might move out of D.C. that happens.
- [14:48]
Podcast Host
Or around the country federal employees aren't just in D.C. they're all around the country, of course.
- [14:54]
David Weigel
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for. Yeah, thanks for. I'm in D.C. and I'm familiar with just people I know in Maryland, Virginia who had this, who've gone through this. But you're right, this is around the country. It's more of a political constituency around D.C. but yeah, they have taken this risk and there is not a magic wand that waves when they lose that says everyone has to go back to work, that even if that happens, they can slow walk it. So that's what changed where Democrats said if we vote for funding and they can pull it away, what is the point of voting for funding? And that has really not been resolved in the month of this. That's not been resolved at all. Democrats say they want a condition of a CR vote to be Russ needs to stop doing this. He needs to stop doing the thing he dreamed of since puberty. And the administration is not listening to that at all because they want to keep doing recessions, they want to keep cutting. That's been the stickiest part of this for Democrats. Not just explaining is pretty simple. I mean you explained it and I can explain it. But like I said, when they go on TV and they're asked about it, it's still a little bit alien to reporters who've covered Congress for their whole careers to say, but, but why don't you just fund the government? They can't get to the point where funding would mean that the government is actually that everything they want is funded. If you're Trump, you say I'm winning already, I'm going to cut this already. The polling is not really moved. They have their own polling, the White House has its own polling that says they're winning. The shutdown, public polling says they're not.
- [16:15]
Podcast Host
Is that going to change? Is that going to change as the SNAP thing hits and is is that.
- [16:23]
David Weigel
As this keeps going, they're pretty confident and brazen that it won't. Republicans are confident that it won't and it is running through the media. The thing that they've been happy with when I say they, I should say Republicans in particular are happy with the last week is that reporters ask Democrats questions about this and they ask if they're willing to let people go without their SNAP benefits. And they'll say you could fund them today, you could show up and fund them today. If Democrats explain that, what I just told you, what we were just talking about, that doesn't get through. And so I don't want to do totally just Meta media messaging war. But that is such a part of this. Will voters who might vote against Republicans because they're not getting their benefits, will they know that it was Republicans who didn't want to fund those benefits who are criticizing snap? They might not. I'm not trying to be totally nihilistic about what information gets out there, but that's just part of the White House's strategy is to say this is Democrats fault if you don't get your check. It's Democrats fault if you are not getting your SNAP benefit. Democrats gave your money to illegal immigrants anyway. It's very cynical the messaging they're using.
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Podcast Host
The White House thinks that it's winning this.
- [17:36]
David Weigel
Oh yeah. And the polling doesn't say that. Look, there's an election in a couple days. Democrats expect to do really well. It's another thing I talked to the DNC chair about and I think they will say Republicans maybe could have done better had they had they let the government get funded the way that both parties agreed to. That's the one thing I've heard from Democrats recently is will the conversation change on shut down anything else if they do well in the elections? The White House is pretty disconnected. Their argument is that the President is single handedly saving the world, saving the economy, bringing back money and this is a distraction. And if you don't get your paycheck it's Democrats fault.
- [18:14]
Podcast Host
And if people feel that, because I see in polling that people feel that the economy is really hurting and do they believe that Trump is doing a good job? I mean and is the White House polling different than the public polling that we've seen or the Gallup and all that stuff.
- [18:35]
David Weigel
It is different. Their own data which they'll share. I'm not trying to be, not trying to be rude about other reporters they're sure with outlets that they like says that it is rosier for them than public polling. Because you just pointed to how voters think of the economy. The White House does not believe that this polling that shows voters think prices are still too high and the economy is actually pretty bad. It's almost like it's government by positive affirmation where the President says things are great. The President says gas is under $2. The president says, he says his play.
- [19:11]
Podcast Host
He'S the most popular president ever. I mean he just lies all the time.
- [19:17]
David Weigel
Yeah. And when it comes to the economy they will just say that things are going great and they don't believe the data that says otherwise. Democrats will do pretty good in a special election. They'll say this issue worked and they won't believe it. It might happen again next week. Democrats, because the entire Virginia campaign by Democrats has been, Trump is laying people off and making the economy worse and making things cost more. In New Jersey, it's Trump's tariffs are making things cost more. You poll voters, a normal pollster is not the White House voters will say, yes, things cost too much. And I'm worried that the tariffs are making them cost too much. And the White House just says, nope. Again, I'm not trying to be too cynical about it. Just when you talk to them, they just, they, they think, look, they're not the first White House completely to say, yes, the polls are bad, but the polls are wrong and it's going to turn around. There have definitely been people. I'm not comparing this to the Biden administration, apart from just saying inflation was going up and it took a little while for the Biden people to admit that it was going up.
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Podcast Host
Wow, it really went up.
- [20:15]
David Weigel
That this is, this is much more intense. But because the Biden administration, at the end of the day was still kind of accountable to the press and economic data which existed, which it doesn't right now because of the shutdown. There are things being funded by the shutdown. Again, there is memes about how you should join ice. There is not fresh economic data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And what do they have? They have the Federal Reserve lowering interest rates even though it doesn't have economic data. That makes them pretty confident. That makes them pretty confident they can get through this without telling the complete truth about what's going on. And if voters say to Gallup or CNN or Quinnipiac or whatever, hey, the economy's still pretty rotten. They don't care right now. They don't believe and they don't care about what that poll says.
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- [23:29]
Podcast Host
I think I referenced this before, but this is Trump. On October 7th he threatened to block furloughed federal workers from receiving back pay.
- [23:39]
David Weigel
Right.
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Podcast Host
And he said it depends on who we're talking about. For the most part we're going to take care of our people. There are some people that really don't deserve to be taken care of and we'll take care of them in a different way. What an asshole. I know that you can't as a journalist you can't acknowledge that.
- [24:01]
David Weigel
I could say that most presidents or candidates won't say I'm going to make life painful for people I don't like usually. I've lived through many stories where a Democrat suggests that some of Republican voters might not be great and it's a years long scandal. So yeah, Trump says and other people don't. But that contempt for people who want to, who are not his voters. If he's Is he getting away with it because he won the election? Arguably. Is this convincing to that band of voters who took a chance on him because of crisis last year? I don't, I don't think it is. And that's why I'm kind of obsessed with whether the reality of the shutdown is getting to people outside of D.C. and I've been outside. I was just in Virginia and Pennsylvania last few days and people are not talking constantly about the shutdown. I was on a plane this week and could have TSA hold, could have been a little quicker, I guess. But they're taking advantage of the fact that people want to keep working and hope for a resolution, even as the president is making fun of them and saying he might not pay them.
- [25:04]
Podcast Host
TSA workers, I think the transportation secretary said that they can't go more than one. They can go one paycheck, lose that and be fine, but not two. And that we're going to start, maybe they're going to have to get second jobs and show up late for work, and it's going to affect people.
- [25:25]
David Weigel
That would affect people. And in the last shutdown, six years ago, a little more than six years ago, one thing that mattered was you mentioned the flight, mentioned different unions. The flight attendants union threatened to strike, and that definitely sped up the end of the shutdown. Different political circumstances I should see, and I haven't seen them do that yet. Everyone is adjusting to the fact that the White House just is willing to cause a lot of pain for people because it doesn't think it'll affect the people who want to vote for Republicans next year.
- [25:53]
Podcast Host
They may be right about that.
- [25:55]
David Weigel
Or yeah, I guess that's my role in this podcast right now, is to be the one saying they might, they might convince enough people that that that's true. But with the ballroom, every piece of palm we have on the White House ballroom is that it's not really desired by voters, that people don't like the of corporations funding it. Who knows what they're getting for it. And the White House just doing it and saying it's actually popular. They do this with everything. So it is a challenge as a reporter, if you want to be straight and print what they're saying and fact check it. Inherent in what they're doing is saying that the facts that you guys in the rest of the country agree on are not the facts that we agree on and something that is causing us political harm. We just don't think it is.
- [26:40]
Podcast Host
So I want to talk about some of the stuff you've been writing in semafor. Your latest articles have been about challenges that Democrats face in the midterms. And you had a piece about left wing ideas have wrecked the Democratic brand. This is from. What was the name of the welcome.
- [27:03]
David Weigel
It's called welcome. Yeah, it was welcome pack. But then like every pac, it sort of spawned like a nonprofit. And the nonprofit's called Welkip. It's kind of centrist Democratic strategists with that name behind their research.
- [27:17]
Podcast Host
And they report that 70% of voters think that the Democratic Party is out of touch.
- [27:25]
David Weigel
Yes. And so what they argue is they have a. I had a story with. Thanks for saying the story. They published their report online after I put the story out, which you can read. It's called deciding to win. I'm not trying to just hype them or hype my story, but it's worth looking at because I think some people who are more progressive look at the headline and say they're saying that we need to move to the right. In some ways they are, but not on economics. They say that Democrats actually had a pretty good image and 70% of the country didn't think they were out of touch. Actually, more people thought Republicans were out of touch. When Barack Obama was running in 2008, 2012, and when Bernie Sanders was running in 2016. The Bernie Sanders agenda, the economic agenda, they say that's pretty popular. What made the party unpopular is the.
- [28:12]
Podcast Host
Image that they're elites.
- [28:15]
David Weigel
The image that they're elites, specifically that they're doing.
- [28:18]
Podcast Host
We're elites.
- [28:20]
David Weigel
Yeah. They're doing policy for white liberals, that they make white liberals in cities happy at the expense of other people. And that. And to convince people that's not the case, they actually need to change policy. Not say, I'm going to wag my finger at AOC because she's, she's left wing, but actually say, hey, yeah, we're the Democrats and we were trying to phase out, for example, gas stoves and we're not going to do that anymore. We were trying to phase out coal. But we're going to be like Obama in the first term and not really, not really do that, even though he said he did on immigration.
- [28:54]
Podcast Host
He was a great, he's great on climate.
- [28:56]
David Weigel
Actually, he was good on climate, but also he had the, what they want to go back to is what was called the all the above energy strategy. They believed that when Democrats went too far into climate policy, that was making dirty energy more expensive, harder to develop. They lost working class voters because they work in Those industries. And there are people who say, I work there, my husband works there, or I'm in a community that does that.
- [29:22]
Podcast Host
I think that this group. Welcome. Said that climate change is a loser.
- [29:27]
David Weigel
Yeah.
- [29:28]
Podcast Host
For Democrats. Even though it's. I mean, look at Melissa, look at this hurricane. Look at the evidence. That doesn't matter, I guess. I mean, politically, it doesn't.
- [29:40]
David Weigel
Yes, they're. This is why they're calling for a less progressive climate policy than the one that Joe Biden ran on or implemented. They definitely are. But their contrast is. And they're not just saying do what Trump's doing. Quite the opposite. They just contrast that with Trump. The Trump administration is punishing the clean energy industry, I should say, and keeping up coal plants that were about to be phased out a bit. Phased out. There's a story in Ohio. There's this Lordstown plant, GM plant that the Biden administration rescued because it was going to be building car batteries. And they meant the Trump administration is punishing that. I bought a car pretty recently and I noticed that the old tax credit that I would have gotten for the electric hybrid, which I got, that went. They phased that out. They're very contemptuous about these sort of nudges, taxpayer benefits in health to an industry. They want coal. So the welcome position I'm not just, you know, like they're. Their hype man is, well, if the choice is backsliding on the climate or going back to the Obama policy, which we could win even Ohio with, we should return to that policy. And that's going to mean we're not.
- [30:53]
Podcast Host
That's a Democratic position now that we should go back to the win Ohio.
- [31:00]
David Weigel
Or compete at least Ohio. That's their position. And you definitely, as somebody who's covered this from progresses. I was at Pelosi's office when AOC and the Sunrise movement did the protest inside ask for a Green New Deal strategy and a vote and saying we need a net zero climate policy by 2030. They're saying, yeah, don't do that. Go be. There are European countries that have a model that we could sort of follow the ambitious. We're going to phase out all dirty energy and be net zero. That might not be possible. And if we run on something that's not possible and it's not popular, then Republicans win and they make it worse. That's the basic premise of this report. So obviously, if you're in Sunrise or you're Ed Barkey or if you're a Green New Deal supporter, this is awful. And you're against this. So the point of the poor report is not to get everyone to agree with it. I think the port. The point is let's go back and revisit some choices Democrats made. Not left wing Democrats or people who are on Fox News getting yelled at. The whole party. Let's revisit what the whole party did and say is there something we did that lost his votes? Should we, in the interest of just winning the election so that we have an EP EPA director who is not doing chemtrail investigations, which is happening right now. That is one of the things the APA is doing is a chemtrail investigation. What if we win and there's an EPA head who's not doing that? Is boiling down the premise.
- [32:18]
Podcast Host
Now there is another article you had about liberal Democratic candidates primary more centrist Democratic incumbents who have a better chance of winning in the in the election. Is this a big tension in the Democratic Party now?
- [32:39]
David Weigel
Well, it's getting that way more than it was in the last few cycles because of 2024. And so one thing Chuck Schumer and Democrats in D.C. could say in 2020, 2022 is we've recruited good candidates and they won. We did better than we won a trifecta in 2020. We won the midterms in 2022 because they lost. There is an opening and really an attitude. You see this at no Kings protests which are organized by indivisible and more progressive groups. It's not just we're angry at the party, it's we're angry at the party and they're losing. So if DC Comes and tells us we need this candidate with a couple of views, you don't like to be the nominee. People don't believe it. The other part of it I think I wrote about is on Israel, one of the defi. One of the defining characteristics of these primary challengers has been I'm not going to take money from aipac. I'm willing to call what's happening in Gaza genocide. Genocide.
- [33:38]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [33:38]
David Weigel
Or even if they don't go that far, they're willing to agree with protesters and they see this is a little bit polling based because speaking of polling, polling of what Democrats think and thought of that conflict, they were not in agreement with Chuck Schumer. They were Democratic voters did want to cut off military, military aid to Israel while it was doing that. Now this turns in on Republicans. This turns into they want to abandon Israel. I found that just covering these candidates, the medium point is more we support Israel. They just feel like they could manage this without a constant supply of arms from us. And maybe they would make some choices that kill fewer people if they don't get them. That's how I started to see it play out in these primaries, that candidates who've defended AIPAC and taken that line their whole career were unwilling to vote against cutting funds to Israel in even swing state primaries where Democrats do want to get electable candidates, they think that's not a winner anymore. In Michigan, one of the states that kind of made me want to write this.
- [34:39]
Podcast Host
Michigan, of course, has a large Muslim population, right?
- [34:45]
David Weigel
Yes, yes. That's one of the legacies of 2024 is people saying, well, and Abdullah sayed, who's Bernie Sanders, endorsed him for the Senate seat in Michigan. One thing he says on the stump and he told me is, my name's Abdul. And there are people who might think that makes me less electable. But look at the last election, like, like a guy named Abdul might be able to talk to those people who abandoned the party over Gaza. And it's, it's very, it's very fraught. But it starts with people saying, hey, what we tried did not work. Donald Trump running as the guy who was going to bring, going to not let Bibi continue the war, even though let it continue for another 11 months, that was a winner. We don't trust the estab of the party anymore. When they, when they say that we need to stick with the AIPAC position and the impact of the Mamdani race, New York, that New York is its own thing. There's no Senate race is going to be in a place as liberal as New York is. But that's had an impact. People saying, hey, if it's not a killer in New York and the base is screaming for us to say we're at least going to cut off funding to Israel. They're not going to agree with him that, you know, Israel should be a secular state. They're not going to go that far. But it has shaken the idea of what you needed to say to win not just a primary, but then win the state. They're looking at younger Republicans. And this is Marjorie Taylor Greene has been a bit on an island here, but younger commentators like the Tucker Carlson Network of people much more critical of Israel than Chuck Schumer is. So that's another reason I'm generally putting that in the basket of things that are moving left in the party. That's one of them of just saying, we, look, you guys didn't win and you had a policy with Israel that cost us votes. There's, I think, IM eu. This Muslim progressive organization has done polling and Kamala Harris cites it in her book. It looks like some people who voted for Biden 2020 and didn't vote for me, Kamala, in 2024, that was their issue. So maybe we need to rethink this and much less confidence. And let's listen to what the Schumer DC Advice is, because it just. That might not get you over the finish line anymore.
- [36:47]
Podcast Host
Is Schumer going to be a majority leader for long or.
- [36:52]
David Weigel
Well, that's been another. Like, what are the prices of entry? If you're in a primary right now, what gets you people interested in you? One of them is being more critical of the position on Israel. One is saying, you want new leadership. And so talking to people who've been jumping into these primaries, you ask them, my colleague Burgess Everett asked them, would you support Schumer for leader? And really, nobody says yes. They don't know who's running. That's a very popular answer, unless you're Haley Stevens in Michigan or Janet Mills in Maine. There are some candidates that Democrats have recruited that say, yes, I support them. Everyone else is saying, no, no, no, I want fresh leadership. It's not like Schumer in particular makes them angry. They're operating in a political world where voters say, we hate the Democratic leadership, we hate D.C. we hate Congress, we hate the establishment. This is, we're going on like a decade plus of voters being angry, even when things get better, angry at the establishment. They're finding the popular thing to say if you're running is, I'm not going to be owned by the party leadership and I might not even vote for Schumer. So I've seen this with Republicans. Ten years ago, Republicans were running for Senate and saying they didn't want to vote for McConnell for leader. Then they did. So it might be cynical, but I think that that's where it's coming from. The, the politically, I can get more votes if I tell people I'm not going to vote for Schumer. And then does that check get cashed in November next year if they win that it wasn't for McConnell, it might be for Schumer. And there are Democrats not positioning cells to challenge Schumer, but positioning selves as people who could be leaders if he gets into the position and has too much opposition to get another term.
- [38:32]
Podcast Host
Oh, who's that?
- [38:34]
David Weigel
Brian Schatz is the main one. Andy Klobuchar is in the leadership already. But again, they're not running as I will be the anti Schumer. I've talked to progressives who are trying to nudge someone like Chris Van Hollen to take a leadership position and just change the way that the party operates. All I know for now is that in these elections it's very, very popular people to say no, I'm not a Schumer Democrat. I'm not even going to vote for him. Don't ask me.
- [38:59]
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Podcast Host
You talked about Mills in Maine and you wrote a piece about Graham Platner, whose old Reddit posts. And that's old some of them, right?
- [41:11]
David Weigel
No, not entire. Not that old. They had been deleted. So he told me he deleted his account before he got in. I interviewed him for that piece, he told me he deleted the account in 2021, so he was not running for anything. And one of the most interesting second third day stories is how do people find your deleted online Persona if it's not even your name? And one answer is cnn. Andy Kaczynski, who did the first story, is just very good at doing that. Yeah, but he deleted his posts. Short version is Platner's apologized for things he said, like using a slur that starts with F for gay people. Not saying he hates gay people, just using that word and said, yeah, I've changed since then. I've grown. But the Democratic Party has a problem. If it says what were some of his stuff?
- [41:57]
Podcast Host
What did he.
- [41:59]
David Weigel
Well, I guess the greatest hits that I was seeing get criticized by Democrats who said they couldn't support him anymore. Not elected Democrats, as people online was that was using that word was saying in a discussion about sexual harassment, military, that it'd be good for women to.
- [42:17]
Podcast Host
Urge women worried about rape to take.
- [42:20]
David Weigel
Responsibility or yeah, take responsibility for that. There was a thread that was a black woman asking what white people would want to know about black people. And he jumped in and said, why is the stereotype that black people don't tip so true? I'm a bartender and I get smaller tips from black people. Those are the main ones that I saw him get criticized for. Those are what he apologized for. And this is what he emphasized to me. Other people, but I'm more familiar with my conversation with him is, well, the Democratic Party, if It's saying to 40 something white guys that you can never run for office, if you said things that were offensive online a couple years ago, that's going to shrink the party tent. You need people like me to say, this party is not going to censor and cancel you. That's where he's, he's taken it and he has found. I've not been in Maine the last few days, but reporters have been. He's got crowds that are 450 people, 550 people. He's got big crowds. He's not had a lot of voters say, I'm a band. You. He has had voters say, I don't like the establishment. It's like, not to be repetitive, but they, they're willing to blame D.C. and the establishment and the media as part of it for what they hear about him after. So he's been running for just a couple months, but he's gotten very good profiles and he's had good interviews and in a short amount of time, a Lot of Democrats in Maine and donors around the country. They told me he has $400,000 in recurring donations. People who, you know, I'm giving him $5 a month through the election, they've not dropped off. And they do think, yeah, I. One, they agree with the first part. And I think there are a lot of Democrats who, they know somebody who voted for Bill Clinton or Barack Obama, but then they think the Democrats have become the cancel culture party. And then two, I don't like D.C. i don't like the establishment. I blame the establishment for dragging this stuff out. The tattoo situation, which we can get into.
- [44:07]
Podcast Host
Oh, that he had a Nazi or a Nazi affiliated tattoo.
- [44:14]
David Weigel
He got a tattoo of the death's head that the SS use, which he said he got as a Marine, not knowing what it meant, but he didn't cover it up until many years later. Some people have told some outlets that he did know what it was. And I kept it ironically for a while. No one has said, yes, he has this and he believes and he reads Mein Kampf and he believes in everything. Hitler. No one has said that. It's been more of a judgment call. Hey, why would somebody do that? I would. If I, if I got a tattoo and learned, you know, you have, here's my Hindu togetherness tattoo. Hey, buddy, that's a swastika. You'd cover it up. And he didn't cover it up for a while. But that's a little separate from the Reddit thing, but not entirely, because everyone, everyone who's reacting in Maine has had the same response, like, oh, it's a mistake, but do we want a party that says you can't make mistakes and if you make a mistake, the hammer of Chuck Schumer is going to come down and crush you?
- [45:10]
Podcast Host
And Schumer has endorsed Mills.
- [45:13]
David Weigel
He's endorsed Mills, but he's not. He did it again this week. He's not gone in on Platner. He's not said, I'm terribly offended by Platner. He could. He's Jewish. He's not gotten into the controversy. He said, I support Mills and she can win. That hasn't really mattered to whether people blame Schumer for attacking him.
- [45:31]
Podcast Host
Mills is popular, but she's 7. How old is she?
- [45:36]
David Weigel
She's 77 and would be 79 when she's sworn in. She's a little bit like Biden where birthdays after the election. So she's younger than Angus King, who's Maine's other senator, but he's been in.
- [45:49]
Podcast Host
A while and he has more seniority. I mean. And she said that she's going to leave after one term.
- [45:55]
David Weigel
Yeah, she said in her first interviews, I'm going to seek one term. This is a emergency. I would have one six year term. We'd replace Susan Collins and would try to save the country from what's happening right now. And then in my early 80s, I'll leave. And there are senators who are that age and are. Nobody has been sharing. She's about Ed Markey's age. Angus King's older than her. Bernie's older than her. There are Democrats who at that age are not able to operate. There are Democrats who are. But that was important that she said out of the gate, I'm only serving one term. That hasn't mollified Platner supporters, but that is an acknowledgment that it would be a problem for her. She's not that much older than Susan Collins. But that's the thing.
- [46:39]
Podcast Host
People like who support Platinum, but she has seniority. Collins does. And that can matter to people, I guess.
- [46:46]
David Weigel
Yeah. Most people don't say, I'm going to serve, you know this like I, I'm going to be there. I'm going to be the junior senator and maybe by the end of my term I'm like fifth in line for committee chairmanship and then I leave. You'd be getting rid of the seniority of Susan Collins for somebody who is a check on Trump but then is not going to be there forever. That is a risk she's taking, but that's how she's navigated it.
- [47:08]
Podcast Host
Okay, just a couple more current events. I'm just curious what you think about the bombing of these drug dealers or accused drug dealers in the Caribbean? In Venezuela.
- [47:24]
David Weigel
Yeah.
- [47:24]
Podcast Host
Do you have an opinion on that? I'm sorry to spring that on you.
- [47:27]
David Weigel
No, no, I do. Well, one, the idea is that they're going after drug dealers. They haven't proven that at all. And this is not where fentanyl is coming from. We know just from law enforcement. This is. There's not been fentanyl coming from Venezuela to Florida into the United States. It's not one of the sources of this. We've been paying attention. Did they say this before the last couple months? Was Trump in 2024 saying he was going to stop all the Venezuelan fentanyl? He wasn't. This is an ad hoc reason. Two, they clearly want regime change. They want to get rid of Maduro. Trump wanted to get rid of Maduro in the first term. He wants to get rid of him. Now, that's the, that's the policy. Administration is let's build up the opposition so they can take over and replace Maduro. And the question is how willing they are to use military force to back that up. What are they getting from. Returning to our previous conversation, Congressional Republicans have not been very interested in oversight. There's Rand Paul out there on a limb. There's Tom Massie. Otherwise, Republicans have said, well, the President has the ability to set foreign policy. There's the Monroe Doctrine, but can you.
- [48:32]
Podcast Host
Kill these people without knowing that they're actually smuggling drugs?
- [48:37]
David Weigel
That's what I mean. That's what they're justifying. So it's possible that our military has killed innocent people who are not doing anything illegal, who just happen to be on boats in Venezuela.
- [48:48]
Podcast Host
Don't you, don't you just come up to their boat with one of your cutters or something? And isn't that what you do?
- [48:56]
David Weigel
The Defense Secretary said that that doesn't work. And Republicans said, okay, but you're right. No, normally, if you want to prove this, they're not worried generally in anything they do, they're not worried that the end of this process, somebody from the Hague in a robe is going to grab them and put them on trial. They operate like there will never be accountability if they do something illegal. Recent history suggests that's pretty right. Did we kill innocent people in recent wars that, that Republicans signed off on? Yeah, we did. And so they. I'm not trying to be glib about it. I'm just saying the way the Republicans view this, the way the administration view this is, well, we want to get rid of Maduro and these might be drug users and. Sure, let's. Who's gonna, who's gonna stop us? Let's go ahead with it.
- [49:41]
Podcast Host
So that's a bigger question is getting rid of Maduro. How do we do that? Are we going to invade Venezuela? What are we going to do? Or, or we, we have CIA there who are going to do the job? Is that it?
- [49:52]
David Weigel
They've. They've kind of, they've announced, which I don't know you're supposed to do, announced that they're, they are trying to undermine and, and get rid of the government through, through, through our counterintelligence. So we know that's. I assume that was happening anyway. I assume every, every country that the United States wants a different leader of, they've got CIA there. I thought that's what it's. Again, not to be blase. I thought that's what it's for. But, yeah, that's the position. So the Secretary of State, that was one of his priorities in Congress, was getting rid of the Cuban regime and the Venezuelan regime. They're pursuing that policy. The. The only sticking point is. Yes. Did Trump run on making peace around the world? Is he. Is he begging for the Nobel Peace Prize? Because he didn't start any wars and he would never start a war. Yes. While he's doing this. So my only impression of that is they would rather a situation where Maduro collapses because the inside the country bit, like, like Syria, like, would it be better for them if there is some sort of violent action inside the country? Maduro flees a new government, stand up. And we didn't have to go in there with our guns. They prefer that. They're not talking about a land invasion of Venezuela. But what would happen if it's an unstable government and there's an American force that has to occupy it? They really have not made a rainy day plan for that. It's just maximum pressure, including extrajudicial killing of people who might be innocent in and military presence in the Caribbean to make Maduro say, well, time for me to go. They did this in the first term, but like everything first to second term, there's no one saying, actually, you can't do that. And there's a lot more confidence of just Trump's judgment in the White House and the administration, Defense Department. There's loyalists saying, sure, try. Go ahead and try.
- [51:41]
Podcast Host
Well, all of his people are loyalists because this term, that's only. That's all he picked, Right?
- [51:47]
David Weigel
Absolutely. Yeah. That was the point of how he staffed this administration. Would James Mattis have gone along with this? Probably not. Will Pete Hegseth. Yes. Pete Hegsell will go along with everything, and that's. He has that job. And maybe once in a while, some Republican senators say, I wish I didn't vote for. For him. Not really worth much. He's in there executing whatever Trump wants.
- [52:10]
Podcast Host
Well, David, thank you so much.
- [52:12]
David Weigel
Yeah, thank you. Yeah.
- [52:14]
Podcast Host
Well, I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kotke, the great Leo Kotke. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next week.
- [52:42]
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