Robert Reich on Fighting The Trump Autocracy

Summary

The Al Franken Podcast: Robert Reich on Fighting The Trump Autocracy Release Date: April 27, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Al Franken Podcast, host Al Franken engages in a profound conversation with esteemed economist and former U.S. Secretary of Labor, Robert Reich. The discussion delves into the pressing issues surrounding the Trump administration's authoritarian tendencies, the influence of big money in politics, and the path forward for the Democratic Party to reclaim its working-class roots. Below is a detailed summary capturing the essence of their dialogue, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

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1. Introduction and Personal Background

The episode opens with Al Franken expressing his eagerness to converse with Robert Reich, emphasizing Reich's extensive background as Bill Clinton's Labor Secretary and his current role as a professor emeritus at the University of California, Berkeley.

Notable Quote:

Al Franken (04:23): "I want to get into your biography a little bit. You grew up in a town in northern Westchester county called South Salem, New York."

Reich recounts his formative years, highlighting the influence of Michael Schwerner, a civil rights activist who played a pivotal role in protecting him from bullies during grade school. This experience, marked by Schwerner's tragic murder, profoundly shaped Reich's commitment to fighting societal injustices.

Notable Quote:

Robert Reich (05:05): "When I learned that the person who had been protecting me from the bullies had been murdered by the real bullies of America, it had, I think, a profound effect."

2. Academic and Early Professional Life

Reich details his academic journey, from Dartmouth College to earning a Rhodes Scholarship and attending Oxford alongside Bill Clinton. He reflects on his time at Yale Law School, where he shared classes with both Bill and Hillary Clinton, as well as Clarence Thomas.

Notable Quote:

Robert Reich (07:27): "Clarence never spoke, and Bill was never in class. You know, character is destiny."

Reich humorously shares an anecdote about introducing Bill and Hillary to each other, inadvertently facilitating their future relationship. He also touches upon his early career, including a clerkship with Judge Frank Coffin of the First Circuit and his tenure in the Ford administration as Assistant Solicitor General.

3. The Democratic Agenda: Empowering the Working Class

Transitioning to contemporary politics, Reich emphasizes the necessity for the Democratic Party to realign with its historical commitment to the American working class. He advocates for strengthening labor unions, incentivizing profit-sharing, and reducing the influence of big money in politics.

Notable Quote:

Robert Reich (17:26): "I would reorient, to the extent possible, the Democratic Party to be the party of what it was in the 1930s and 40s, the party of the American workers and the American working class."

Reich underscores the stagnant distribution of corporate profits, pointing out that while companies thrive, average workers see negligible benefits. Addressing campaign finance, he critiques the Citizens United decision, lamenting its role in empowering corporate money over democratic ideals.

Notable Quote:

Robert Reich (18:08): "That was the beginning of the end of what we understood as American democracy."

4. The Impact of Big Money and the Citizens United Decision

Reich delves deeper into the ramifications of the Citizens United ruling, tracing its origins to a 1971 memorandum by Lewis Powell to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. This memo laid the groundwork for corporate dominance in politics through substantial financial contributions.

Notable Quote:

Robert Reich (18:08): "Lewis Powell's memorandum... said that the only way the business community is going to have any say at all in American politics is if it really provides huge amounts of money to American politicians through their campaigns."

He critiques the Supreme Court's stance on Citizens United, highlighting the ongoing challenges in curbing the excessive influence of wealth in politics. Reich advocates for measures such as restricting individual campaign contributions and incentivizing candidates who reject corporate funding.

5. Trump's Economic Policies and Their Effects

Shifting focus to the Trump administration, Reich critically analyzes Trump's tariff strategies, particularly his aggressive tariffs on China. He explains how these tariffs have destabilized the U.S. economy, drawing parallels to fiscal crises like the 2008 financial collapse.

Notable Quote:

Robert Reich (21:09): "What Trump is doing... is creating another financial crisis. And this is hurting average working people."

Reich explains that tariffs, often justified by Trump as a means to extract concessions from China, ultimately burden American consumers by increasing prices, thereby acting as a regressive tax disproportionately affecting lower-income individuals.

Notable Quote:

Robert Reich (22:32): "It's a lose, lose, lose proposition. Trump is backing away."

6. The Rise of Autocratic Practices in the U.S.

A significant portion of the conversation centers on the Trump administration's attempts to emulate autocratic regimes. Reich draws comparisons to leaders like Viktor Orban, Mussolini, and Stalin, noting Trump's systematic assault on independent institutions such as the IRS, Federal Trade Commission, and the National Labor Relations Board.

Notable Quote:

Robert Reich (26:46): "It's exactly out of the Orban playbook... go after the intermediary institutions that stand between the population and the government."

He warns of the long-term dangers posed by undermining these institutions, which serve as essential checks and balances in a democratic society.

7. The Role of the Supreme Court and Judicial Challenges

Reich addresses recent Supreme Court actions, particularly regarding the Trump administration's deportation policies. He criticizes the Court's decisions that compel the administration to facilitate the return of deported individuals, emphasizing the administration's blatant disregard for judicial authority.

Notable Quote:

Robert Reich (41:27): "Trump did not ask him to have him returned. And Bukele said, well, I'm not going to return him."

Reich highlights the potential for a legal showdown as the administration challenges established precedents, potentially threatening the independence of the judiciary.

8. The Threat of Oligarchy and Building Solidarity

Towards the end of the episode, Reich expresses grave concerns about the entrenched oligarchy in America—a system where the wealthiest wield disproportionate power over political processes. He calls for widespread demonstrations and grassroots solidarity to counteract this imbalance, emphasizing the critical role of collective action in preserving democracy.

Notable Quote:

Robert Reich (35:37): "If Americans can actually see this, if the disguise is gone, if the mask is off, maybe... we have an opportunity to... limit and constrain the oligarchy."

He acknowledges the current surge in public activism, referencing large-scale rallies and the burgeoning support for progressive figures like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC) as signs of a potential resurgence in democratic engagement.

9. Conclusion: Optimism Amidst Challenges

Reich concludes the discussion on a cautiously optimistic note. While he remains deeply concerned about the current state of American democracy, he holds onto hope inspired by the resilience and activism of the populace.

Notable Quote:

Robert Reich (48:28): "I do feel like over the long term we will learn a great deal. So I'm an optimist. But I am deeply, deeply, gravely concerned about where we are right now."

Al Franken echoes this sentiment, underscoring the importance of continued activism and solidarity as the nation navigates these tumultuous times.

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a searing critique of the Trump administration's policies and their undermining of democratic institutions. Robert Reich's insights illuminate the systemic issues plaguing American politics, particularly the corrosive influence of big money and the drift towards authoritarianism. His call to action for Democrats to recommit to their working-class roots and for citizens to engage in active resistance provides a roadmap for restoring democratic integrity.

For listeners seeking an in-depth analysis of current political challenges and strategies for combating autocratic tendencies, this episode offers both clarity and inspiration.

Transcript

[Al Franken]

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[Al Franken]

Hey everybody, we got a great wonder today. You know, for a change, Robert Reich is my guest. I think most of my listeners know Bob Reich, Bill Clinton's Labor Secretary and now professor emeritus at the University of California at Berkeley. And you're going to love this conversation. I want to get right to it, but first I just want to briefly weigh in on the peace deal that Trump is trying to get Ukraine to accept. And I'm basically cribbing from a Washington Post article by Max Boot, who's always very reliable. Now I'm recording this on Friday morning and of course negotiations are ongoing and this is subject to change, but basically, if you look at it, it's kind of a one sided deal. It's. Well, okay, Ukraine would have to accept the map basically as it exists now. And that would include the US Recognizing Russia's annexation of Crimea and the territory that Russia now controls in four other regions of Ukraine. This would be accompanied by other gifts to Putin, including the promise that Ukraine never become part of NATO. Any US sanctions imposed on Russia since its 2014 occupation of Crimea would be lifted, ushering in a new period of US Russian economic cooperation. In other words, basically nothing for Ukraine and everything for Russia. Well, at least Trump didn't get this done in one day. Oh, and in three years after Putin has reconstituted his military, Russia will invade to finish the job. That's me. That's not Max Boot. And now my conversation with Robert Reich. It's a great one. You know, for a change.

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[Al Franken]

Thanks.

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[Al Franken]

I want to get into your biography a little bit. You grew up in a town in northern Westchester county called South Salem, New York.

[Robert Reich]

When I was there, it was a little farming community. Most of my friends lived on farms.

[Al Franken]

And I read some biography and they said that when you're in high school, you were like 411 and that you, there were, you know, bullies who might bully you and that you kind of had a posse of people who, who protected you. And one of them was Michael Schwerner.

[Robert Reich]

Yes, that was when I was in grade school.

[Al Franken]

That was grade school.

[Robert Reich]

Yeah. I had, I was. Well, I, you know, there's a lot of bullying that goes on in every grade school. But because I was very short, I did have to find protectors. And in the summers my grandma had a cottage up in the Adirondack Mountains. And Michael Schwerner's family did as well. And he was, although about five years, six years older than I was, he was just a wonderful friend and a positive force. And he did keep the bullies at bay. And for those of your listeners who don't remember, Michael Schwerner was murdered in Philadelphia, Mississippi, Neshoba county in 1964, along with two other civil rights workers trying to register black voters and the Ku Klux Klan did It. And when I learned that the person who had been protecting me from the bullies had been murdered by the real bullies of America, it had, I think, a profound effect.

[Al Franken]

I would think, Al.

[Robert Reich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

And I think that's why you fight so hard to protect Americans from, From bullying. Okay, then you went to Dartmouth.

[Robert Reich]

I did.

[Al Franken]

You got a Rhodes scholarship.

[Robert Reich]

Yes.

[Al Franken]

And you went to Oxford with Clinton. You were there when he was there.

[Robert Reich]

I did. And I did not inhale. We did not inhale together.

[Al Franken]

Did you do demonstrations? I remember he organized a demonstration against the war.

[Robert Reich]

I demonstrated, particularly the 1969. The big moratorium. Anti Vietnam moratorium. And we were both at Oxford and in London. We went down to London and we did participate.

[Al Franken]

And then you went to law school with the Clintons, with both Bill and Hillary, right?

[Robert Reich]

That's right. And also Clarence Thomas.

[Al Franken]

Clarence Thomas was in your class?

[Robert Reich]

He was in the same class. And in fact, we took courses together, Bill and Hillary and Clarence and me. The Socratic method was professors would ask questions and we would put our hands in the air. Hillary always had her hand in the air. And when she was called on, she had the perfect, absolutely perfect, devastatingly perfect response. Of course, I had my hand in the air about half the time. And my responses were in the ballpark. No, they were. They were in the ballpark. That's a nice way of putting it.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[Robert Reich]

Clarence never spoke, and Bill was never in class. You know, character is destiny. And I think that Clarence Thomas saying nothing and Bill Clinton being otherwise occupied, I think he was doing politics. He was probably on a campaign.

[Al Franken]

But still you had developed a relationship with him enough. You saw him outside of class, I would imagine.

[Robert Reich]

Yes, yes. And I take credit, although they don't give me credit, I take credit for introducing Bill and Hillary. The first day we were all at law school together, I said nothing more than, bill, this is Hillary. Hillary, this is Bill. I didn't know what I was doing.

[Al Franken]

And you, you knew her from. Did you go out on a date with her while you were at Dartmouth?

[Robert Reich]

Well, a date is a, is a fancy way of putting it. I, I, I wanted to go out on a date with her. I met her, and I was, I was very impressed by. But who's going to go out on a date with a little shrimp like me? So I came up with a vehicle, and that was organizing. I knew she was interested in educational reform. I was, too. So I organized a conference on educational reform at Dartmouth. She came up, we went out, we went to see Antonioni's blowup You remember that film?

[Al Franken]

I do, yeah.

[Robert Reich]

Years later, when she was running for president, I got a call from the New York Times, a reporter wanting to know who had come across her college letters for some reason and mentioned that she had gone out on a, whatever date with me. And he wanted to know, the reporter wanted to know if I remembered anything about the date. And I said, well, yeah, we went to see, we went to see a film. And the reporter said, well, was there anything that you can remember that might shed light on how she would perform as a president? And I, I, I thought for a moment, I said, well, I mean, I, I'll tell you this. And, and the reporter got very interested, and I said she wanted an inordinate amount of butter on her popcorn. And the reporter went silent. And I said, are you still there? And he said, yes, I'm just writing this all down. And then actually, it did appear in the New York Times. The popcorn, the popcorn story. Yep.

[Al Franken]

Well, there's a guy who knows when he's really got a hot tip. Wow. So you're in Yale Law School with them. You graduate and you clerk for the Chief Judge of the D.C. circuit of the First Circuit.

[Robert Reich]

First Circuit, yeah. Judge Frank Coffin, a truly wonderful, remarkable man and a great jurist.

[Al Franken]

That's a prime, that's a prime assignment to get that clerkship.

[Robert Reich]

Well, I, I, I don't know how prime it was, but I learned, learned a great deal. I mean, it's a close. The closest thing we have in the United States to an apprenticeship is when you are clerking for a judge. And if you, if you, if you're lucky, you graduate from law school and you get a terrific judge. And I learned more about the law than I did in all three years at Yale Law School.

[Al Franken]

Did you write, help write his opinions?

[Robert Reich]

Yes. That's what clerks do.

[Al Franken]

That's what clerks do.

[Robert Reich]

I mean, they, they do the research. They do the research and the first drafts. But no, the judge, obviously, if he's a decent judge, will, will obviously do the writing, but use the clerk's research and maybe first draft as a starting point.

[Al Franken]

Then you were in the Ford White House, is that correct?

[Robert Reich]

Yes, I was in the, well, the Ford administration. I was hired to be Assistant Solicitor General to Robert Bork. Do you remember Robert Bork?

[Al Franken]

I do.

[Robert Reich]

I had taken his courses when he was at Yale Law School, a professor. And we didn't agree on much in terms of politics. In fact, even in terms of the law, we didn't agree on the first, second, fourth, fifth, eighth, or ninth Amendments. But he was good to work for, and he was. He was. He was tolerant. And I got a chance to argue a few Supreme Court cases, and that was a thrill.

[Al Franken]

Well, that's amazing. So you've been in White Houses that were both a Democrat White House and a Republican.

[Robert Reich]

And then I worked for Jimmy Carter, appointed me to run the policy shop at the Federal Trade Commission. And then I went off and started teaching.

[Al Franken]

And then you ended up in Clinton's administration as Labor Secretary.

[Robert Reich]

That's right. I think, Al, if I'm not mistaken, I first met you when I was teaching at Harvard, isn't that right?

[Al Franken]

I don't know.

[Robert Reich]

You were there.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[Robert Reich]

And you. I think one of your kids was there.

[Al Franken]

Oh, I see. This is when I was. I was at the Shorenstein center at the Kennedy School, and I was writing a book. I remember I. I was a fellow there.

[Robert Reich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

I thought I was a teaching fellow, but I wasn't. So I asked them, am I a teaching fellow? Do I have a students? And they go, no, no. I said, well, you could. I have like a study group to help me research a book. And they said, oh, yeah, a lot of professors here do that.

[Robert Reich]

So if you just put the right.

[Al Franken]

Label on it, that was right. Right.

[Robert Reich]

It worked.

[Al Franken]

So I had this great group of students from the Kennedy School and from the college help me write lies and lying liars who tell them a fair and balanced look at the right.

[Robert Reich]

I remember that. And I. And I remember you and I talking about teaching in those days. And I. You enjoyed, as I remember you really enjoyed it.

[Al Franken]

I enjoyed having these brilliant students that I could bounce off, because that. And that's what I like more than anything, I guess, is bouncing off. You know, when I was at Saturday Night Live, we had, you know, 12 writers or something like that, and those were the, you know, great comedy writers. Those are people that you can bounce off of, and it really helps you.

[Robert Reich]

I think the reason I have any optimism and hope left in my body after working, you know, in government as long as I did and after seeing everything I saw and after having to cope with the Trump regime is because of my students, because I have, at least until two years ago, I was teaching, you know, undergraduates and graduates here at Berkeley, which is a wonderful, wonderful engine of upward mobility. I mean, I think the most important.

[Al Franken]

In the country, and it's part of.

[Robert Reich]

The California system of colleges, universities, 30% of my students. And I teach a number of very big classes, you know, 800, 900 person classes. 30% of my students were Transferred had been transferred students from the community college system in California. And they were first generation ever to go to college. And many of them were the first generation to have the opportunity to do everything that we take for granted.

[Al Franken]

And what do you teach?

[Robert Reich]

Well, I was teaching again, I retired officially, but I taught political economy. A big class called wealth and. And poverty. You know, why inequality of income and wealth had dramatically widened over the last 40 years? What were the reasons and what were the political consequences? And I remember year after year after year, I would get to a point in the class where I would say, well, if we, if we continue to see this degree of widening inequality and this degree of resulting anger and frustration on the part of so many working class people, we are going to have a demagogue. At some point American democracy is going to be seriously threatened because people will not stand for it. I didn't realize how soon it would happen after I retired.

[Al Franken]

Well, I'm going to segue into what you would propose that we do if we Democrats could take charge. What we would do if you had an agenda that you put forward for Democrats to be campaigning on. I think we've seen a lot of what that is. It's more childcare, more protection for labor.

[Robert Reich]

Yes, I would definitely encourage labor unions. I give workers more bargaining leverage. I would create incentives for profit sharing. I mean, these companies have never made as much money. Their stock values have really never been as high. And who's getting the benefits? You know, their major investors and the CEOs. Average workers are not seeing any benefits at all. So I would reorient, to the extent possible, the Democratic Party to be the party of what it was in the 1930s and 40s, the party of the American workers and the American working class. And one of the ways of doing that also has got to be to get big money out of politics.

[Al Franken]

Well, Citizens United was the thing that opened it up. And I remember that Justice Kennedy wrote the opinion and said that the thing is, is that would be transparent. Everyone would know what everybody. But we didn't vote for disclosure.

[Robert Reich]

We did. That's right. We didn't vote for disclosure.

[Al Franken]

We, we being in the Senate, we didn't get six, we got 59.

[Robert Reich]

Well, without this, without disclosure. Disclosure would have helped. But the fact is that Citizens United did open the floodgates. The floodgates were already being opened. Al, do you remember in 1971, Lewis Powell wrote a memorandum to the United States Chamber of Commerce.

[Al Franken]

Right.

[Robert Reich]

That said that the only way the business community is going to have any say at all in American politics is if it's really provides huge amounts of money to American politicians through their campaigns. And that was the beginning. You know, the Chamber of Commerce took that memo, went to every major corporation in America and said, you've got to pledge and you've got to put huge amounts of money in. And that was the beginning of the end of what we understood as American democracy.

[Al Franken]

And Powell later was named to the Supreme Court.

[Robert Reich]

The same Lewis Powell.

[Al Franken]

Yeah. And I think he was one who did vote Roe v. Wade.

[Robert Reich]

Yes, yes. And he also, I think to some extent saw that the Frankenstein monster he created in terms of all of this money coming into American politics from big corporations needed some control. So I think he moderated his views. But it was too late. You know, it already happened and the Supreme Court was already tilting in that direction. Now, that doesn't mean it's hopeless. I think we can, and the Democrats can fight for ways of reducing the amount of money in politics. I mean, saying to politicians, if you restrict the amount of money coming from any individual to your campaign and with regard to independent so called independent groups, you can get matching funds or incentivize in some other way. But the main point I really feel strongly about is that Democrats have got to be Democrats, corporate Democrats are not really going to help the Democratic Party. And the Democrats have got to be economic populists in terms of naming and being clear about, you know, the large corporations and the wealthy individuals that are corrupting our system.

[Al Franken]

Let's talk about Trump and tariffs. So get you back into Trump. These terrorists are really screwing with Americans. Tom Friedman said that the tariff regimes, a regime that Trump laid out on Liberation Day, is going to be like Biden's Afghanistan in terms of polling and support. And I think we've seen that, right?

[Robert Reich]

Well, we have seen it and Trump has seen it as well. And you know, Trump takes on China in terms of these tariffs with, you know, tariffs that really were 145%, basically forcing the two, trying to force the two economies to apart. Well, now he's backtracked very fast because he's seeing that the results are devastating in terms of the stock market and the bond market, people pulling their money out of treasury bills.

[Al Franken]

And that is seen as almost a more serious reflection of what's going on when people are betting against the dollar. Right.

[Robert Reich]

Well, because treasury bills had been the safest place to put your money. And if treasury bills are no longer safe because you're worried about inflation, the inflationary effects of the tariffs, then the entire Economy is threatened as it, you know, almost to the same degree. It was threatened in 2008 when the financial markets began to collapse because of the betting on Wall Street. It's not entirely distinct because I think what Trump is doing, whether he wants to do it or not, is creating another financial crisis. And this is hurting average working people, obviously, because it's causing prices to start to move up every major producer.

[Al Franken]

Tariffs, of course, are paid for by the importer and passed on to American consumers. He Trump keeps saying stuff like, well, China, when we do a tariff on China, that we get the money from China, but we don't. The chair is played by the importer. Right.

[Robert Reich]

The importer pays the money for the tariff to import the good. And then the importer generally shifts that cost onto the consumer part or some.

[Al Franken]

Of the costs or all.

[Robert Reich]

Well, maybe all. It may be all of the costs because the importers, these big corporations are very large. They have a lot of market power. They're not in so much competition with each other that they're forced to shave some of those costs. Some of them may. But the most important point is that consumers Pay, whether it's 100% or 50% or 75% of the cost of those tariffs. That's consumers. Those are American consumers. The other point related to this is that it's a regressive tax because it takes a bigger chunk out of the paychecks and wallets of lower income consumers, of working class consumers, of Trump voters, many of them, than it does out of the checks of upper middle class and wealthy consumers. So it's a lose, lose, lose proposition. Trump is backing away. He's trying, just like he's backed away from Harvard and he's backed away from some of the crazy stuff he's done.

[Al Franken]

Let's talk about Harvard for one second or for more than that. You taught at the Kennedy School, right? For years. Were you proud of Harvard?

[Robert Reich]

Well, I've had my differences with Harvard over the years. Okay, but I think you're at Berkeley.

[Al Franken]

Now, so you're proud of.

[Robert Reich]

Yes, I'm at Berkeley now. I'm proud of Harvard. In terms of Harvard taking the stand, it did. Alan Gerber, the president of Harvard and the trustees of Harvard did the right thing. They did not kowtow and bow and scrape to Trump. They did the opposite of what some of the law firms, like Paul Weiss did. They really did stand up. And Harvard standing up to Trump has made it easier for other universities.

[Al Franken]

Well, I think almost 200 colleges and universities signed on to a draft of something that I think the president of Mount Holyoke wrote or something, but Harvard led the way. So.

[Robert Reich]

And you can't. I mean, the point is, you can't appease a tyrant, whether that tyrant is called Donald Trump or Caligula. I mean, you can't appease a tyrant. When the law firms started to give way, obviously, what does Trump do? He goes back to the same law firms and says, I want even more from you.

[Al Franken]

Well, at first they said, we want you to do pro bono work because you were so offensive to us when you did something against the Trump. These pro bono things were going to be working like what law firms usually do pro bono for, which are worthy causes that can't afford them. Right. But now they're saying, no, we want you to, you know, negotiate our trade deals.

[Robert Reich]

Exactly. And, well, it's worse than that. Trump is not specified. He says, we want you to provide 50 to $100 million of free pro bono work to causes I believe in. And then he'll go back to law firms, which he has done. And sort of, no, I want to up it. I want to make it 50 million more. And I'll give you some of those causes. And many of those causes are not causes that really require a free pro bono work, because they're corporate causes. They're big. You know, they're causes of the wealthy in this country. You know, this is another aspect of the Trump administration that needs to be understood. And hopefully people are catching on. It's. It is not an administration that is there for average working people. It's there for the billionaire class.

[Al Franken]

And this shakedown, this is a shakedown.

[Robert Reich]

It's a gigantic shakedown. And everything that Elon Musk is doing in terms of trying to reduce whatever it is Social Security or Medicaid or veterans benefits is designed to create room in the budget for a big tax cut that will mostly go like the last tax cut of Trump's to the millionaires and billionaires of America.

[Al Franken]

This going after colleges, going after, especially going after law firms. This feels like an autocracy. This is like something that Orban does.

[Robert Reich]

It's exactly out of the Orban playbook, right? What? The Orban playbook, which is also the Mussolini playbook and the Hitler and the Franco and the Stalin playbook, the strongman playbook is you go after the intermediary, quote, unquote institutions, the institutions that stand between the population and the government, that are independent. You know, you go after the law firms and the museums and the libraries. You go after the universities you go after any source of independent power in your society and you make them dependent on you as the strongman so that you don't have an independent voice, so you're no longer independent. And that is the formula. It's the old formula, old as in since the 1930s, but it's a formula that worked in the 30s and unfortunately has begun to have the same chilling effect, silencing critics in the United States.

[Al Franken]

So it looks like on, on Russia and Ukraine that we've picked a side and that we want Ukraine to accept the borders that now exist from. From the fighting where the lines are. That is unbelievable that after, remember, he said he could do it in one day.

[Robert Reich]

But also look at what Trump is willing to do and wants Ukraine to do. Basically, this is what the Mueller report showed that Manafort and Trump, at the beginning of the first Trump administration were, were agreeing with Russia to try to do that is take the eastern provinces of Ukraine and let Russia have them, and let Russia have other places that Russia has already gained a dominant foothold in, and make Ukraine pledge not to join NATO. Now, this is, this is. That was. This was all there in the Mueller report. This was all that we knew in 2016. This is what Trump wanted and what the Russians wanted, what Putin wanted from Trump, and he's now finally giving it to them. Well, this should be no surprise, but it is outrageous.

[Al Franken]

Let's talk about Elon Musk. We must, I guess. So he has gutted a number of agencies. And is that part of their plan, like on Social Security, firing people for Social Security so they can't answer the phones?

[Robert Reich]

On one level, it's an ingenious plan because you're not actually getting rid of the program that is Congress's province. But what you're doing is making it impossible to administer the program, whether it's Social Security or veterans benefits or Medicare or the irs. As a result, you are actually doing what Congress would not otherwise want you to do and what the Constitution otherwise gives to Congress, Article 1 of the Constitution. But the irony here is that Elon Musk says he's saving money, but he's saving almost no money at all.

[Al Franken]

Well, like the cuts in irs, for example.

[Robert Reich]

Well, the cuts in IRS are actually going to cost the government.

[Al Franken]

That's what I'm saying. It's possible that it will cost as much money as he saved by firing people in all the other agencies and getting rid of usaid, which was monstrous. I think it was the richest man in the world killing the poorest people in the world.

[Robert Reich]

Yes. But with the irs, it's the richest person in the world getting rid of the auditors who would otherwise be available to audit the tax returns of the richest people in the world or the richest Americans in the world.

[Al Franken]

When they increase the number of IRS agents who could understand very complex rich people's tax returns, they've cut those people.

[Robert Reich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

And that was estimated to raise, was going to raise hundreds of billions of dollars extra. And now the losses there may offset all the gains, the $150 billion of gains that Doge claims to have instituted.

[Robert Reich]

And those were just Doge claims. Do you remember the first big claim of Doge was that it stopped USAID from distributing all of these condoms. It turns out that it was a complete fabrication, complete lie. But here we have with the irs, an example of dogecoin getting rid of people who otherwise would have been auditing the tax returns of the wealthy. That's what those people were specialized in doing. That's why the wealthy really are celebrating the fact that Doge is getting rid of those potential auditors. So it's not about saving the government money, it's about basically providing a return to the wealthy and billionaires who put Trump into office. But the biggest part of that return is going to be at the tax cut that they are now planning, which will be part two of the tax cut that was started to be put into effect in 2018, which again disproportionately benefits the wealthy.

[Al Franken]

Is he going to lower the top tax rate again, lower than it was in the, in the first bill?

[Robert Reich]

Well, he's going to try, you know, the first bill he did not have nearly the votes he now has, so he is certainly going to try to do that. And the reconciliation bill, that's, that's really going to carry this through the Senate so that there is no opposition. You don't have to have a 60 vote agreement in the Senate.

[Al Franken]

Yeah.

[Robert Reich]

You know, that reconciliation bill is itself premised on a budget in the House that the House passed, which requires one and a half trillion dollars of cuts, most of them not possible unless you attack Social Security and Medicaid and probably even Medicare.

[Al Franken]

I think they said something about $880 billion of cuts to Medicaid over 10 years.

[Robert Reich]

Yeah, that's what the committee is now trying to do. So you get the working class, America gets hit with cuts in Medicare and Medicaid and possibly Social Security, veterans benefits. The wealthy get the benefit of not having the IRS look through their returns, give them, have an audit of their returns. And secondly, they get the benefit of a big tax cut that disproportionately helps them. So can there be any doubt, al, that this regime, I don't even call it an administration, that the Trump regime is there for the billionaires and even the billionaires who are clustering around Trump, who are in the Trump White House, never had that many billionaires before in the White House.

[Al Franken]

Remember who was it? The commerce Secretary who said that if his mother, he was a billionaire, said that if his mother in law missed a Social Security check, she wouldn't complain?

[Robert Reich]

That's right. The, the billionaire's mother in law would not complain if Social Security was not there for her. How out of touch can these people be?

[Al Franken]

Well, that was, yes, that was an argument he made, which is amazing, isn't it?

[Robert Reich]

Well, they reveal themselves. And I think the silver lining on this horrible administration regime is that people are beginning to see who these people are. They're beginning to see the power of the oligarchy in America. That is the extraordinary rich people who have basically run the government because of all the money they put into American politics. But if Americans can actually see this, if the disguise is gone, if the mask is off, maybe, maybe at the end of the road, at the end of this road, we have an opportunity to do what we should have done years ago, and that is limit and constrain the oligarchy, make sure big money is not nearly as significant in American politics.

[Al Franken]

Well, to do that we have to win elections. And we have a midterm coming up, but that's pretty far away. But in the meantime, people are demonstrating and amazingly huge crowds turning out for aoc and that we have to keep doing that, don't we?

[Robert Reich]

I think we have to do that. There are some Democratic advisors who say, no, just focus on the 26 midterms. The problem is if you don't demonstrate, if you don't actually build solidarity, if you don't give people a feeling that they have a voice and their voices count and can be heard, by the time the 26 midterms come around, even though it's only next November, people are going to be saying, well, why should I bother? There's no Democratic Party there. I think there have got to be major demonstrations. Bernie and AOC, let's see, it was Denver, Colorado. They had 34,000 people attend that rally in Los Angeles. It was 36,000 people. You know, I've been in and around politics and campaigns for many years. I don't remember that kind of a turnout. Americans are eager to show how much they disapprove of this administration. And we're not talking about just, just Democrats. There are a lot of people who are centrists. There are independents, they are even. There are very few left, moderate Republicans who detest what is happening on the economic grounds that we've been talking about, on social and political policy that we've been talking about, in terms of international policy that we've been talking about. Wherever you look, you find a regime that does not, not reflect the values of most Americans.

[Al Franken]

We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back with Robert Reich.

[Robert Reich]

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[Al Franken]

And we are back with Robert Reich. I think probably everyone listening to this, almost everybody kind of agrees that he's a demagogue and are very depressed because it's overwhelming. He comes at you from so many ways for deporting people without due process. Brego Garcia. And he wasn't the only one there that was deported without due process. They all were.

[Robert Reich]

And we're finding more and more. We're finding out about more and more people who have either been deported without due process or have disappeared. There was even an American that ICE mistakenly, and let's put mistakenly in quotes, abducted for 10 days he couldn't until he and his family finally convinced ICE that he was an American citizen. This is so close to the kind of fascism that we have experienced in the world. And we were talking about it, you know, 10 minutes ago. But yes, if you can just abduct people and send them to a prison in El Salvador, a brutal prison, a.

[Al Franken]

Prison from which the only way out is in a coffin.

[Robert Reich]

Yes. And the fellow who is Bukele, who is the president of El Salvador, he has imprisoned tens of thousands of his own people without due process. I mean, he is not somebody who you want to. If you're in the Oval Office and you're President of the United States, you don't want to. You don't want to. You don't want to legitimize. But here we have a president of the United States who is not only legitimizing Bukele, but giving him more money to take more Americans. And he said, who knows what's going to happen? I mean, if it's possible for ICE or for this administration to take anybody off the street and send them to a brutal prison in El Salvador without any hearing, without any due process, without any judge, without just the allegations. I mean, who's to stop them from doing this to an American they don't like?

[Al Franken]

And the Supreme Court weighed in on this and said that the first it was 90. I don't know what the difference between the 90 and the 72 decisions were in terms of getting him back. And the. The 901 they said that the administration had to facilitate his return from El Salvador.

[Robert Reich]

Now, facilitate is an active verb. You know, if I were asking you al to facilitate something and you sat.

[Al Franken]

On your chair, I'd be in contempt.

[Robert Reich]

You would be in contempt certainly if I were a judge demanding that you facilitate something. So the 90 was the justices of the Supreme Court telling the administration they had to facilitate Ambrogo Garcia's return. And what happened three days later, Trump is there sitting in the Oval Office with Bukele. Like their old friends. Trump did not ask him to have him returned. And Bukele said, well, I'm not going to return him. So the Trump administration, the Trump regime, Trump himself essentially thumbed his nose at the Supreme Court.

[Al Franken]

And now what does the Supreme Court, what are they able to do?

[Robert Reich]

Well, that's the next big question. I think that what they did is they remanded the case back to the district court to have more detail as to what the district court wanted the administration to do or the regime.

[Al Franken]

And this is Judge Zinnis, I guess.

[Robert Reich]

Yes, yes. There are two parallel Supreme Court cases. One has to do with shipping people who are alleged to be Venezuelans and alleged to be dangerous off to El Salvador without any due process. The other one, with regard to Amrego Garcia is a person who is. Holds a green card, who is a permanent resident alien.

[Al Franken]

He has, he's a husband and has three children.

[Robert Reich]

Yes. And again, it's just an allegation that he's dangerous. A fascist regime can alleged anything about Anybody. But if you don't have a. Independent court. Allegations.

[Al Franken]

I'm sorry, I laugh. I laughed at your emphasis of independent.

[Robert Reich]

It has got to be independent. I mean, you know, we. The Congress, as you know better than I, Congress has set up independent agencies. The Constitution set up under Article 3, an independent court system. We have an independent Federal Reserve. There are reasons for independence. We have, at least putatively independent universities. Independence means legitimacy, credibility. It means that they have a role in our democracy that cannot be constrained by a strongman dictator.

[Al Franken]

And two of those independent agencies are the bar. And he's going after them, going after these law firms and their colleges and universities. And he's gone after them.

[Robert Reich]

Yeah. And also the independent agencies of the federal government that he's gone after are the National Labor Relations Board, Trade Commission, the irs. He's threatened to go after the Federal Reserve. But the trouble is, if you. If you go after these. And he has gone after the National Labor Relations Board and the IRS and the Federal Trade Commission, you are violating the law as Congress set the law, because these commissioners have fixed terms during which they cannot be fired by a President. Now, the Supreme Court may change its mind about all of that, but this is a clear violation of the law as it is now.

[Al Franken]

And they have fired some of the FTC commissioners.

[Robert Reich]

Right, Exactly. The two Democrats on the Federal Trade Commission were fired. The chair of the National Labor Relations Board, a Democrat, was fired. The firings continue at the Internal Revenue Service, and we've talked about that. But I want to stress that this is all illegal right now because Congress has established that these places are to be independent. And the commissioners have fixed terms of office that a President cannot interfere with. There was a. A famous case, Humphrey's executor from the 1930s, Franklin D. Roosevelt, wanted to substitute one of his people for one of the commissioners of the Federal Trade Commission. The Supreme Court came back and said, no, you cannot do that because these commissioners at the Federal Trade Commission are. And Congress have decided that they are independent. They have fixed terms. They cannot be simply replaced because you as President want to replace them. Now, that case, Humphrey's executor, will certainly be a major case coming up to the Supreme Court again. And the Supreme Court might reject its precedent. I mean, my old college, my old Yale law classmate Clarence Thomas, doesn't feel bound by precedent. Apparently, neither do some of the other justices. But there is a principle of law called stare decisis, which means that if the Court has decided something in the past, you have got to, for the sake of the rule of law, you as a justice facing that precedent, you've got to do the same thing unless you come up with a very good reason.

[Al Franken]

Well, they managed to do that on abortion rights. They did, they didn't they? Gorsuch and Thomas and Alito, of course, and Coney Barrett and Alito's.

[Robert Reich]

I mean, if you read Alito's decision in the Dobbs case, there's no reasoning there. I mean, it's all, frankly, bullshit. And Thomas's concurrence, it's utter bullshit. How can they, and I say this often these days, I'm talking about some of these people, including a lot of Republicans in Congress. How can they look at themselves in the mirror in the morning, assuming that they do look at themselves in the mirror in the morning? So maybe they don't. Maybe they avoid themselves in the mirror in the morning. But if they do look at themselves in the mirror in the morning, what do they say to themselves to justify what they are and what they do?

[Al Franken]

Well, look at Rubio.

[Robert Reich]

Yeah.

[Al Franken]

Well, thank you.

[Robert Reich]

Well, I hope this has been an uplifting experience for you, Al.

[Al Franken]

Some of it has.

[Robert Reich]

Well, I really am much more upbeat than I sometimes sound because I do feel like over the long term we will learn a great deal. And I have lived long enough and I'm old enough that I have seen progress made in ways that I never expected progress would be made. So I'm an optimist. But. But I am deeply, deeply, gravely concerned about where we are right now.

[Al Franken]

Right. Right back at you. Well, I hope you enjoyed listening. That beautiful music is by Leo Kotke, the great Leo Kotke. I want to thank Peter Ogburn for producing this podcast. We'll talk again next.

[Mr. Ballin]

If you like the Al Franken Podcast, you can listen to all episodes ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime. Members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.