← The Alisa Childers Podcast
The Alisa Childers Podcast
#370 Reacting to Progressive and Deconstruction TikToks | Monique Duson & Phoenix Hayes
01:05:03
Loading summary
Transcript292 lines
- [00:00]
A
Catch the NBA playoffs on Sling tv, the most flexible live TV streaming service, putting consumers in control to watch games their way with flexible subscriptions. Want to catch one game or a full series on espn? Grab a one, three or seven day pass. If you want to catch as many games as possible, get a monthly subscription with our abc, NBC and ESPN combo package. Either way, Sling lets you watch the playoffs your way with no long term contracts. Learn more@sling.com foreign.
- [00:40]
B
Hey friends, I'm Alisa Childers. This is the Alisa Childers podcast where our goal is to equip Christians to identify the core beliefs of historic Christianity, discern its counterfeits, and proclaim the Gospel with clarity, kindness and truth. And we're doing that today with a couple of my good friends Monique Dusan and Phoenix Hayes. And we are going to be responding or better reacting to to progressive tiktoks. And this is something that was last minute. We were all together at my house and we were like, let's just do this. So we didn't prepare a whole lot, but what we wanted to do was model what it looks like for just regular Christians with Bibles to think through some of the insane claims that we see come across our social media newsfeed. So I want to tell you a little bit about each guest and then we'll get into the conversation. So my first guest is Monique Dusan, who has been on the podcast before. Actually, they've both been on the podcast before, but Monique is the president of the center for Biblical Unity, which is an amazing leading Christian voice on things like justice issues, race issues, pushing back on the wokeness or the critical theories that are kind of eking into the church. And you can visit her website@centerforbiblicalunity.com and then Phoenix runs and has founded a new ministry to come alongside youth pastors. This is the coolest thing. It's called Neon, and you can go to that website@neonfaith.com and ultimately her goal with this ministry is to come alongside youth pastors and ministry leaders with resources and encouragement to help clarify some of the confusion, acknowledging that a lot of students are engaging with a lot of the material that is very much like the material we're going to be responding to today and then equipping the next generation of students to be able to be bold with what they believe and to be clear and confident in their faith. But before we get to that, I want to to let you know. Today's episode is brought to you by Brave Books, which is a Christian children's entertainment company. You can go to bravebooks.com childers and use the code CHILDERS for 20% off. I also want to let you know about some upcoming episodes that I think are going to be really important and valuable and equipping for you and so be looking for these coming up in the Future. I have Dr. Bill Roach on talking about Christian nationalism. Where are we at with this? What is it? He's been doing deep, deep dives on this, and we had a very, very clarifying conversation about what we even mean and what the various camps mean when they use that phrase. What is biblical, what isn't biblical? So stay tuned for that. And then I also have recorded a conversation with my friend Patty Height, who God saved out of the LGBTQ lifestyle in her story. I just. I just want to say I recorded this today and I was just trying to not ugly cry through the whole episode. I've never had an episode where I literally had to have my husband go get me a tissue in the middle because I was so move by just how beautiful her story is and what the Lord did in her life. So stay tuned for those episodes and without any further ado, I'll take you to my TikTok reactions with Monique Dusson and Phoenix Hayes. So I have some videos for us. We did watch one or two of them last night, so I'm gonna be like, full disclosure. But most of these we haven't seen.
- [04:02]
C
Yeah.
- [04:03]
B
And if I've seen them, it's been a really long time, so I'm not even sure what's coming. So this will be fun.
- [04:08]
C
This will be spontaneous.
- [04:09]
B
Yes. Yeah. And I. And my hope for this is that without really preparing, we can model what it might look like to just actually watch something and think it through.
- [04:19]
C
Yeah.
- [04:19]
B
You know, we're not going to probably have all of the perfect answers, but we're going to just think it through as Christians and see where we go.
- [04:26]
D
Yeah. Yeah.
- [04:27]
B
Sound good?
- [04:28]
C
Buckle up.
- [04:29]
B
All right, you ready for number one?
- [04:30]
C
Yeah.
- [04:30]
B
Let's do it.
- [04:32]
E
All pastors that go to seminary face a similar issue. They learn how the Bible came to be, or what we call the Bible. They learn about the books that were left out. They learned about the agreements to allow whatever books to be permitted. They learned that the books were full of or the writings full of allegory, metaphor, similes. But they know that it's not actually true. So they have a choice to make upon attending and leaving. And here's the choice. Will I go back to my congregation and tell them the Truth that this book is not a spiritual book at all. There's nothing magical about it and it's not true and it's not history at all. Do I tell them the truth or do I think about what I could possibly lose? All that money, prestige, power, influence. To God be the glory, everybody.
- [05:28]
C
Amen. Amen. Past.
- [05:31]
E
I mean, past the Bible.
- [05:34]
B
Yeah. So initial thoughts.
- [05:37]
D
My, my first thought was when I'm always suspicious when there's like this total, totalizing. I don't even know if that's a
- [05:46]
B
word, but yeah, I know what you mean.
- [05:47]
D
Yeah. Like he. So he comes in with all pastors. All pastors. And so you know that everyone, like my little spidey senses just go up to be like, oh, okay, so what are you going to say? Like the general accus, all pastors. Makes me start to question. Okay, so there can't be one that's different. And if there was one that was different, just one, maybe the other 99 are, you know, as he says, what are. What are other possibilities?
- [06:18]
B
Yeah.
- [06:18]
D
How does he know? Because now he's giving us a lot of factual statements without any data to back it up.
- [06:25]
B
Yeah. I was thinking that what's your evidence that all pastors feel this way? Right?
- [06:29]
D
Yes.
- [06:29]
C
And then.
- [06:30]
D
And what's your evidence that all pastors are out here doing it for the dime? You know what I mean? And you know, pass, Pass the offering plate. Pass the Bible. Like it's, it's so grand because like,
- [06:41]
B
honestly, who goes to seminary for. For the money, right? How many kids are in Bible school to learn to be pastors for the money?
- [06:48]
C
Right? Yeah.
- [06:49]
D
So, yeah, I think that was my first thought, was just automatically suspicious. There's no data. He is very much like, you can see his venom. And you know how he is approaching the conversation. But where is the, where's the data? What are you backing this up with?
- [07:08]
C
Yeah, yeah. As soon as someone starts a video with all, you should immediately have your suspicion, you know, radar going. Because nothing is ever all. There's no community ever that it's all. So a media is like, okay, well, he's overstating his claim already for whatever is about to follow. If he had the evidence already, he wouldn't need to do that. So I'm immediately skeptical. Yeah. But as he was listening the different things about what pastors are doing in seminary, learning about the books of the Bible, how the Bible was formed, what the process was that I thought, yes, good. Yes. I learned that in seminary. Good. Yes, yes. And then he says, and they all know it's not true. And I'm like, what? That's a radical turn. I was never taught that it wasn't true. I was never given evidence that it wasn't true. So he lost me at that point. I'm like, no, I, Yeah, I don't know where you're going with that now.
- [08:05]
B
And what does that even mean, it's not true? Like, does it mean it doesn't have any true information? It was a very broad statement. But you know, as I was, I think one of the reasons I'm remembering now why I chose this one is because there videos like this I think are persuasive because there's a bit of truth to it. So when people go to seminary, like when I audited classes at seminary, I learned some things that I was unaware of. Like for example, I learned about what's called textual variants. So I had heard the claim that there's. It was a pastor who had said there are like 400,000 plus mistakes in the New Testament manuscript copies.
- [08:43]
C
Yeah.
- [08:44]
B
And that was very rattling. In fact, it took me a very, very long time to reason through what I actually thought about that because even the conservative scholars were like, yeah, that's correct. There are, they would, didn't call them mistakes, they called them variants. But there was agreement among hyper skeptical scholars and conservative scholars that there were these discrepancies in the manuscripts. So that is something that has been known in seminaries for ages. But the difference is we're living in a culture now where that information has now been disseminated amongst the average population that, you know, maybe 50 years ago, 100 years ago, the average churchgoer didn't know that.
- [09:26]
C
Yeah.
- [09:27]
B
But now because of books, popular level books written by people like skeptical scholar Bart Ehrman that are written from a very biased and persuasive standpoint to, to make people think, oh, well, this means that the Bible is not true or it's not reliable.
- [09:42]
C
Yeah.
- [09:42]
B
When. So I, I think I heard it was maybe Dan Wallace, the textual critic, New Testament scholar, talk about how when Bart Ehrman wrote his book to let the general population know about this stuff that most pastors did learn in seminary and know it was from such a skeptical angle, they've been playing catch up to try to help people understand what those data points actually mean. And so when I was reasoning through this for myself, I remember thinking, okay, what does everybody agree on? Well, they all agree that there's this many. And even conservative scholars might even say there's more than that discrepancies but that his conclusion, he's jumping right to this conclusion that it means the Bible's not true. Whereas conservative scholars that learned this reasoned through to a different conclusion with the same data, the facts that they agree upon. Whereas the conservative scholars, you learn, oh, actually what that means. And even the skeptical ones will say the vast majority of those discrepancies don't change the meaning of the text at all. So it might be like you have some manuscripts that say Jesus Christ, some that say Christ Jesus.
- [10:45]
C
Right. Some that say that'll account for hundreds,
- [10:48]
B
if not thousands of spelling differences, things like that, that really don't change what it actually means.
- [10:54]
C
Right.
- [10:54]
B
And of course, we have to acknowledge there's a small portion of these discrepancies that do change the meaning. And there's still some questions about some of those, but we know what they are.
- [11:03]
C
We do.
- [11:04]
B
Right. So it's like, it's not a big cover up. It's not a huge cover up. But I think because a lot of, with Tik Tok, with popular level books that are coming from such a skeptical angle, that could be very persuasive for people, especially if this is the first time they're hearing, oh, there's, there's discrepancies in the manuscripts. What do I do with that? And so they only have the skeptical voices guiding them on how to reason to a conclusion from that. And so I think that is why things like this can be really persuasive.
- [11:31]
D
I would say it is, it comes off like a cover up because many pastors aren't talking about this on the, from the pulpit.
- [11:39]
B
Right.
- [11:39]
D
More in some classes, the church or congregants aren't equipped to even really think this through because they've never heard it before. So now it's a mind blow kind of thing. And then, well, he's the first person that I've heard this from. And so now I'm gonna come into the conversation a little bit more skeptical than I would have been if I had even just had it on my radar, even if it wasn't explained to me all the way. But I knew that there was a little bit of something to it from a person that was a trusted source, like my pastor. But we're not, and I'm not trying to, you know, put all this undue burden on pastors, but we have to be equipping our people to understand, like, yeah, this, this is a thing like, and I can't teach all of that from the pulpit this morning, but I do want you to understand this is a thing. You can read this book.
- [12:34]
C
Yeah. That's really all it takes.
- [12:36]
D
Yeah. You know what I mean?
- [12:37]
C
Yeah.
- [12:37]
D
Come ask me after church if you have a question. But if this is the first person that you hear something from, a lot of times he might get the upper hand in the conversation, especially if you're
- [12:49]
B
looking for a reason to disbelieve the Bible. Like, that would be very persuasive. And not to harp on the one example that I used with the discrepancies in the manuscripts, but if you even think about that one particular thing, and there are more of things like that, but even that, it's like, okay, so there's a small portion that affects the meaning. What does that mean for inspiration? What does that mean for inerrancy? These are all different questions. And I can make my case for all of these things, which, you know, would be beyond the scope of this podcast. But my point is, is that I think that it's just all wrapped up in this big ball of it's not true.
- [13:25]
C
Yes.
- [13:25]
B
Rather than saying, well, hang on, what specifically do you think is not true? Let's talk about that. And then what does that mean for what we even think about the Bible and what that is? And so, yeah, Monique, to your point, I do wish more pastors would talk about, you know, you don't want to form a whole entire doctrine on a meaningful variant. You know, you want to hold that intention with the rest of scripture and. And that sort of thing. So. Any other comments on this one?
- [13:52]
C
Well, my last thought is they often, you know, coaches will tell parents, when it comes to preparing your kids for thinking and talking about, let's say, sexuality or gender, things like that. Parents are afraid to bring up topics because they don't. They really want to keep their kids as innocent for as long as possible, neglecting the fact that whoever brings the information to their child first immediately becomes the authority on it.
- [14:16]
B
That's right.
- [14:16]
C
Right. So you don't want your kids learning about what on earth a threesome is or an, you know, all these different sexual things from their peers, because now it's assumed either mom and dad don't know about it or it's not okay to discuss with them. So now they're getting their information from a less reliable source, their peers. I think the same problem arises when you've got challenges in Christianity or the biblical text that the pastor doesn't want to address. He wants to keep the sheep. And I don't mean that in a negative sense. The flock Comfortable and feeling secure. And we're not going to talk about these things because actually, none of them really matter, which is true. A lot of them don't have any doctrinal impact. But then what do you do? One of the members of your congregation gets this video. Well, why didn't my pastor tell me? Maybe my pastor doesn't know. Or maybe it's not safe to discuss it with my pastor. Maybe I'll watch more of this guy's videos.
- [15:16]
D
Yeah.
- [15:16]
C
And so on.
- [15:17]
B
Yeah. Very good.
- [15:18]
C
I am my own authority. Your authority is God and then your husband. I can trust myself. Your heart is wicked and deceitful above all things. Who can trust it? All the answers are within me. Lean not on your own understanding. I am good the way I was created. Nothing good dwells in you or in your flesh. So, I mean, I can also do all things through a verse taken out of context. That's all I can think of is, oh, yeah, some of those are quotes from the Bible out of context, and some of them are partially paraphrased verses of the Bible. Where's the verse that says, God is my authority and my husband.
- [16:10]
B
And then my husband.
- [16:11]
C
Yeah, and then my husband. My husband is not my authority. I submit to my husband when we work together in collaboration, and he's established enough trust with me and I with him, and he's following a biblical example and a Christlike character, and, like, there's so much to unpack there right then. But even then, I wouldn't say, husband, you are my authority. Whatever you decide. That's not what it is.
- [16:40]
B
Scripture would hold. Hold you accountable to make God your authority and his Word your authority.
- [16:45]
C
Right.
- [16:45]
B
Yes. The husband is your head, but. Yeah, and you submit. But it's like if he. If your husband tells you to disobey the Lord, you have to disobey your husband.
- [16:53]
C
Absolutely.
- [16:54]
B
Yeah, That's.
- [16:55]
C
That's my point. So, anyway, that's just one of the many different things that she listed.
- [17:00]
B
Yeah.
- [17:00]
D
I can't chime in on the husband bit, but if you would like me to chime in, you can reach me@infoenterforpeoplehome.com Very nice. No, no, I'm just saying one of the first things that I noticed was the villainization of truth. And I'm not saying that every statement that she said was true, but the things that she said in. Where she's smacking the ruler and it seems really harsh. There is a twinge of truth in those things, even in the, you know. Well, your husband and you know, and God are your only authority or things like that. Like, as you just said, there is, there are twinges of truth even in that. But it's a villainization of truth, a villainization of scripture, a villainization of, you know, like the moral good that comes from scripture. And so what I see is this mockery of, or more of like a cultural mockery of like, you know, I am good. There is nothing good in you. Well, yeah, like scripture says that, you
- [18:07]
C
know, you are fearfully and wonderfully made.
- [18:09]
D
You are fearfully and wonderfully made, and you are a sinner. You know what I mean? And the heart is deceitfully wicked. Who can know it? You know what I mean? And I'm created in the image of God. But, but there is this villainization of the true parts that do come from scriptures and it's juxtaposed against the your truth type of narrative.
- [18:41]
B
I don't know about you, but for my husband and I, coffee is such a meaningful part of our morning ritual. And that's why it makes me feel so good to know that when I use 7 weeks coffee, it's not just that I'm getting the best coffee I've ever had. That shade grown, low acid mold free, organically farmed, direct traded. I know that I'm getting coffee from a company that is unapologetically Christian and unapologetically Pro Life. In fact, they donate 10% of every sale to Pro Life centers and ministries all across the country, raising over a million dollars, which translates into saving thousands of lives. In fact, they've built their business around saving lives. They are America's life coffee company. And I'm pretty picky about my coffee. I'm telling you, this is the best coffee I've ever had. So if you want to check them out, go to 7Weeks Coffee.com today and save 15% forever when you subscribe. And you'll get a free gift with that, but exclusively for my listeners. If you use the code Alisa, you'll get an additional 10% off your first order. So that's 25% total savings on your first order plus that free gift. So go to 7Weeks Coffee.com today and use the code Alisa at checkout. And I think too, as I was watching this, the thing that just came to my mind immediately was like, I don't know her story. Maybe somebody really twisted the Bible, right? And hurt her with it. Like, that's the ruler. I mean, even maybe literally, like she went to some kind of school where they smacked her hands. And said those Bible verses, like, I don't know, I would want to know. Like, just tell me your experience, experience with Christianity. And it could be that's the case or it could be that's how she felt being told and taught those things. But as I was just listening to this, because you're right, a lot of the things she's saying are true. That your heart is deceitful, it is wicked. But if that is the truth about the human condition, if that is reality, if that really is what's wrong with people is that we are sinners and that our, our hearts are wicked, then telling somebody that, especially in a biblical way, in the, in a biblical tone with like you mentioned, Monique, maybe without the ruler. Yeah, without the ruler and balancing it with that we are fearfully and wonderfully made, made in the image of God, then that's actually life giving. And so I thought about it like in the context of cancer. So you could almost do the same thing. Like, I am perfect the way I am. You have cancer. Well, yeah, Somebody could tell you that that way. And that's awful. But if you really do have cancer, then you could actually reframe that. Like, I'm perfect just as I am. Well, there's a lot of good in you. Yes. Like, you, you're fearfully and wonderfully made. And you're made in the image of God. But you know what? There's this thing that's eating your body through your body, and it's killing you. And like, I want to help you get rid of that and heal you of that. And so it's. The diagnosis is only like the ruler if it's not true. Like if it wasn't true that you had cancer. But I'm like, you have cancer. We're going to put you through chemo. And then I make you go through this, you know, horrible chemo without cancer. Like, that would be the ruler.
- [21:56]
C
Yeah.
- [21:57]
B
But if it's true, if it's actually true that you're actually sick, and I'm telling you this because I want to help you get better. I want to give you the cure, which is the gospel. And so somehow the message isn't received that way. And I think so often in this deconstruction movement, you see truth villainized, like you said, and even the correct diagnosis villainized. Right. And seen even as abusive.
- [22:22]
C
Yes.
- [22:23]
B
Because they don't believe the gospel is beautiful. I just think that's what it is. It's a refusal to acknowledge what's actually broken and wrong, which makes the Cure feel ugly and brutal and abusive and bad.
- [22:40]
C
The thing I keep thinking is we could have reshot that video with the exact same script, but what if we had set Hitler down saying, I am beautiful just the way I am. My authentic self is live my truth and the person. And then the soft, gentle music is the believer saying, yeah, but your heart is wicked beyond. You know what I mean? Like, it's just. We can flip it. They've really tried to dress it up as which one sounds better? And it's like, no context. And.
- [23:13]
B
Yeah, because sometimes in churches, they can overcompensate, you know, and not tell people they're made in the image of God and not let them know that there's something deeply valuable about you because you're human.
- [23:25]
C
Yes.
- [23:25]
B
And, like, what makes you different from the animals and things like that. But, yeah, it's like the message being received is something very different.
- [23:38]
D
I keep thinking that this video was similar to the first video that we watched in that it's very all, you know, so, you know, you are wicked, you know, and sinful. Well, it comes across as all, but there's no question about. But what else. Yeah, you know, why does it. Does. Is it true that that is all that is? That is, to me, the same way we asked that question in the first video of. He starts out with all. Is that true? You know, I think that's a good question to ask when we're watching videos like this. Is. Is that true?
- [24:14]
B
Yeah, that's good. And I think, too, even in the way we frame it, like, one of the things I love about the way your pastor actually talks about the gospel. Phoenix, Bobby Conway. He's been on our podcast before, too. Is that when he was struggling with all of the sin in his life before he was a Christian, Promiscuity addiction, all the things he. He talks about how he was looking for a resolution to his guilt. And. And that's where I think the beauty of the gospel comes in, is it's not just the, you're a sinner and your heart is deceitful and wicked, but also, like, you have the opportunity to repent. And so often that is communicated in a way that's probably not good. But when you really talk about biblical repentance, it's repentance unto life. It frees you of your guilt. It releases you of your guilt. You can be embraced by God in forgiveness and reconciliation, adopted into his family. So repentance, the offer of repentance, which the Bible says, it's his kindness that leads us to repentance. It's not like repent, you know, like, like the image I think so many of them have, but it's actually like I'm going to give you the solution to your guilt and it's not the ruler, it's actually the cure.
- [25:27]
D
Yeah.
- [25:28]
B
And that's the sad thing when people don't get that.
- [25:29]
C
Yeah.
- [25:31]
B
All right, Ready for the next one?
- [25:32]
C
Yeah.
- [25:32]
B
All right. The problem is if there is an all powerful God, it is deliberately hiding itself from me. I have yet to see any evidence that any gods exist and so I don't believe in any. I'm an atheist. However, if there is a God that exists, it is welcome to reveal itself to me at any time.
- [25:53]
C
This one, this is relatable. Everybody wrestles with the hiddenness of God. There's a reason why it's, it's a field of study.
- [26:01]
B
Yeah.
- [26:02]
C
She's not presenting some new phenomenon here. But the fact that she led with I have not seen any evidence for the existence of God is just incredible. She has been presented with so much evidence. If you have walked outside and acknowledged the breath in your lungs and the nature around you, you have been presented with evidence. I understand that it's not persuasive evidence to her, but it just does truly blow my mind that they have the audacity to say I've been presented with no evidence for God. And then honestly the arrogance that it sounds like when someone says he, it is welcome to reveal itself to me at any point.
- [26:57]
B
Adele Natural Cosmetics is a Christian founded family owned company creating handcrafted high end cosmetics and skin care that are safe, clean and nourishing. I love their products. In fact, I want to tell you about three of my current favorite Adele products. Number one is their blush stick in the shade velvet. That's what I'm wearing. In fact, I'm wearing all three of these today. This has been my go to almost every day. It's like a deep pink but it blends out to be just look like you kind of pinched your cheeks and it just looks so sunny and nice. And then my current favorite lipstick, the amore or amore, I'm not sure how to pronounce it. It's a bit of a lighter pink for summer. And then you guys, my summer staple is the watermelon eyeshadow. My little trick is that I take a little bit of the watermelon eyeshadow and I just press it onto whatever I'm already wearing and it just kind of shines through with this bit of like a corally pink that is so perfect for summer. I love that their products are so clean. They don't use fake fragrances or things that are going to disrupt your hormones or your endocrine system. They're handcrafted in Texas. So much great stuff. So check them out@adelenaturalcosmetics.com that's spelled a D, E L Natural Cosmetics. And use my code ALISA for 25% off your first order. Again, adelenaturalcosmetics.com use my code ALISA.
- [28:20]
D
Makes me wonder what the evidence is that she's looking for.
- [28:26]
C
Right. What do you need specifically?
- [28:28]
D
Because to your point, yes, you know, like God reveals himself in nature and there, there's tons of evidence that God exists. But what is the evidence that she's looking for that she wants? And if, if that evidence was revealed to her, would it actually change her mind?
- [28:48]
C
Right. Would she actually be interested? Because that's, that's exactly. That's the separate issue. Okay, let's. Let's say we prove beyond a doubt that the God of the Christian Bible is true. Do you want him? Yeah, maybe not.
- [29:01]
B
I suspect that if God materialized in front of her in the physical flesh and did some miracle right in front of her to prove that he existed, I don't think it would satisfy her. I just, I mean, I suspect, I hope that it would.
- [29:19]
C
Right.
- [29:20]
B
But I actually don't think that it would. And I think there's a theological reason for this that Romans 1 explains. So. So if the Bible is true, if it's real and God is real, and this is actually his word, then Romans 1 tells us that every person who's ever been born doesn't just have access to the knowledge that God exists, but we actually know it. This really blows my mind when I think about it. I'm going to read in Romans 1, starting in verse 18, it says, for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. So already it's framing it that unbelief is moral. It's moral in nature because men suppress the truth in unrighteousness. And then it goes on to say why. In verse 19, it says, for what can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. So it's not just that every person has access to knowledge about God. It's not just that we can see it if we look, or that it's available to us, we actually know it.
- [30:36]
C
Right? It's like it's preloaded.
- [30:38]
B
It is perceived, we perceive it. And that's why it says for. So they're without excuse. Like nobody has an excuse to disbelieve God. For they knew God, they did not honor him as God or gave thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. And then this is the theological reason right here. Therefore, God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie. It's not that they didn't see it. It. It's that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator who is blessed forever. And you know, I've watched a bit of this girl's content and I actually have a real heart of compassion for her. I hope that she's not been given over to what this is talking about. I pray that she's not. I pray that the Lord is still working on her and drawing her and has not given her over. Yeah, but that is the reality. If the Bible is true, if God is real and this is His Word, then she knows that God exists. She has perceived clearly the evidence for God's existence and has suppressed the truth in unrighteousness. And that's heavy. That's a heavy truth to think about. And again, I think as long as there's breath in my lungs, I will pray for people who hold this view. But I think to your point, Monique, I just don't know that there would be any evidence that would satisfy her because just look around. The fact that there is consciousness, the fact that the universe exists instead of doesn't exist, why is there something instead of nothing? There should be nothing.
- [32:25]
C
There should be nothing.
- [32:26]
B
There should be nothing if there's no cause of everything. So I think to your point, there's an extreme arrogance to this because it takes some humility to go, hey, yeah, I mean, God isn't like showing up, manifesting in a christophany in my bedroom every night. But there is enough evidence. I think it was Peter Kreeft who said this. There's enough evidence for those who want God, they can have him, but he keeps himself hidden enough so that those who want to reject him can do that. Too.
- [33:00]
C
That's right. That's.
- [33:01]
B
That perfect. That's a paraphrase. But, yeah, it's. It's powerful. So, yeah, like, I pray for this girl. Yeah. And I hope that one day she will see.
- [33:11]
C
Yeah. That would be wonderful. Yeah. And there was something else that she said. The atheism, to me is such a. Interesting position to take. I understand agnosticism.
- [33:25]
B
Right.
- [33:25]
C
I mean, most of the planet is agnostic, I think. And, like, you're either theist or you're agnostic. Atheism is such a unique, arrogantly unique
- [33:35]
B
take and new kind of new take,
- [33:38]
C
because she knows she exists. She knows that she lives in an atmosphere that is catered to her survival. She doesn't deny that. And yet she denies the best explanation for it. And she's comfortable just existing in that, in logical inconsistency. I have no explanation for it, but I reject yours.
- [34:04]
B
And.
- [34:04]
C
And she's comfortable just swimming in that ocean of, I don't have anything better to offer, but I reject what you suggest. And I'm like, okay, you can swim in that water.
- [34:13]
B
Yeah.
- [34:13]
C
But it's not very persuasive.
- [34:15]
B
If God be your God, serve him. If BAAL be your God, serve him.
- [34:18]
C
Okay. Okay.
- [34:19]
D
Yeah.
- [34:20]
C
I hope I quoted that video.
- [34:25]
B
Okay, so it says, your emotionally immature parents living their best life while you're learning every healing tool known to man and spirit guide, unraveling your childhood chaos. So this is supposed to be the boomer parents that are just ignoring all the. All the.
- [34:40]
C
All the trauma they caused you?
- [34:42]
B
Yeah, I guess I chose this one for a reason. But I want to hear what you guys think about it.
- [34:52]
D
Honestly, my mind is just blown that they took Snoop and did that. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was Snoop. Yeah. And yeah, I.
- [35:00]
C
She can't get past the music.
- [35:03]
D
I am still cultivating a thought.
- [35:05]
B
Okay.
- [35:06]
C
Yeah, Yeah, I think I need you to stop.
- [35:08]
B
Okay, I'm gonna start with this one, because this so perfectly encapsulates what you see in the deconstruction movement, especially calling their parents emotionally immature. Like, I. Okay, so I have talked to so couples who have grown adult children who have deconstructed and cut them off and many times called them emotionally immature, stunted, all of these things, and toxic. Of course they call them toxic. And so this is the perception in the deconstruction world that the older generation of Christian parents, they're emotionally immature. They're, like, childlike in that way. And we're the ones who have grown past this. We're the ones that are healing. We're the ones that are trying to resolve our trauma. So we're going to cut that toxicity off. And so it's like this reaction against a whole generation, which just kind of blows my mind that you would think, yeah, there are emotionally immature people, of course, but an entire generation is not emotionally immature. They've lived enough life. Everybody has suffered. We were talking about this earlier, Monique. Every person who's ever lived has suffered. Nobody has the life that they wanted. Perfectly right. We all have to reckon with these things. And, and I was looking at this like, or, or maybe they've learned to dance in spite of it instead of ruminate. And I'm not saying don't heal from your trauma. There are things we know now that are helpful. I'm not saying that it, you know, just shove it down and pretend that it's not real. But there is something to the idea of suck it up a little bit and just you can't ruminate and jump into that hole and cut everybody off in your life because it's not exactly perfect for you because that's not going to make you stronger anyway. Stressors make us stronger. And so to view a generation like this, to me it's mind blowingly disrespectful. And it's, I mean, not to use the word we keep using, but it's arrogant.
- [37:09]
C
I'm going to push back on this one just slightly because it's a fun thing to do. I've been wounded by emotionally immature
- [37:21]
F
relatives,
- [37:22]
C
I won't be too sure, specific of that generation. And I have observed their inability to have difficult conversations after an emotional wound is caused. And that attitude of not suck it up, but just we've moved past that, let's just all get along. Why can't you. Yeah, it's the peacekeeper, not the peacemaker attitude that I think I wouldn't label the whole generation with, but because that was my experience at what did happen to be that age group, I can see how that would transfer over to someone who's really wrestling with the faith they were raised with. If they've got someone equally emotionally immature, unable to really have these deep conversations with them. And, and either it's, we can't talk about it or whatever the case may be. I can see why that would be difficult. If you're deconstructing and need to talk.
- [38:26]
B
Yeah. To your point though, I mean, this is funny, you know, I mean it is funny.
- [38:32]
C
Yeah.
- [38:32]
D
Yeah.
- [38:35]
B
If you're looking for some great and entertaining, engaging content for your Children look no further than Brave Books. I so love what they're doing. They are committed to helping parents raise kids with character, conviction and imagination. They have a series of books. Our very own Frank Turek and Melissa Dougherty have produced books with them. They have a streaming platform called Brave plus where you can give your kids carefully curated shows and stories that avoid that overstimulation. They encourage positive behavior and reinforce biblical truth. Remember those shows we watched when we were kids, like Davey and Goliath and Franklin? They've got all of that stuff and so much more. So go to bravebooks.comchilders today for 20% off when you use the code childers. Again, that's bravebooks.com childers use the code Childers.
- [39:26]
D
I think, or at least I question the idea of your emotionally immature parents living their best life. Maybe their way of coping, maybe their way of getting through it is to dance.
- [39:35]
C
Yeah.
- [39:36]
D
You know, it doesn't. One of the things I think I'm learning as I get older and I have relationship with my mom is different generations handle situations differently.
- [39:46]
C
Yes.
- [39:46]
D
There are different pieces of knowledge available based on your age. You know, the things that I have available to me with the Internet and things like that, my mom didn't have available to her. What we have learned in psychology wasn't available to her. She didn't know that. And so.
- [40:03]
C
And what was modeled to them by their generations?
- [40:06]
D
You know what I mean? So you, you have all of these different things coming into this one pot and now they're blamed as being simply just emotionally immature, where it's like, maybe this is, you know, part of how they're getting through. Maybe the emotional emotionally immature piece is the calling out and saying, well, they're just emotionally immature. Well, you know what, it actually takes a little bit more emotional growth and stamina to have a hard conversation to be able to sit with your own emotions instead of just name calling.
- [40:40]
C
That's right.
- [40:41]
D
And so that's kind of where, where I'm at with this. I think something about this also reminds me of gentle parenting a bit. Sarah Ockwell Smith, who is, I would say, like the godmother of gentle parenting in her book, and I'm completely blanking on the name of her book right now. But she also encourages gentle parenters or gentle parents to cancel their emotionally immature parents. Cancel the parent who does not support, you know, your gentle parenting techniques and things like that. And something about this just also reminds me of that. And it's like to your point, we have to have a little Bit of, you know, stamina. We have to be able to be strong. We can't continue to just rage weak generation after weak generation after weak generation. It doesn't. There's no benefit in that. And, you know, to my, you know, me saying, well, we shouldn't call it. We shouldn't just call names. So I don't want to just call names and say, you know, well, everybody is weak. No, we have to have young people who turn into adults that have some emotional fortitude, who are able to walk a road, who are able to go again. Like, think about Ephesians 4. You can't. Ephesians 4 if you are emotionally immature. You can't. EphesiANS 4 if everything is, well, that's just trauma or.
- [42:04]
C
And if you're at a cut off every time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [42:08]
B
Well. And okay, so I want to yield to your pushback because that was very good. So I want to, I want to, as I've thought it through, after you've made your point, I want to refine my opinion a little bit.
- [42:18]
C
And just to add, I'm not condoning.
- [42:20]
B
No, no.
- [42:20]
C
Therefore you have every right to cut them off.
- [42:23]
B
Right. No, you made a great point. You made a very good point. And so I think, as I was thinking it through, listening to both of you, maybe how I might refine my opinion is that. Yeah, because I mean, I think we've all experienced that. And to your point, the generations do tend to deal differently. And then they're, you know, of course, everybody has frustrations with their parents and the way that they have handled things and, you know, maybe. Yeah, so. So that's all valid and true. I think what bothers me about this attitude is the canceling that you're talking about. It's like being so arrogant to say, well, this is what I don't think people are thinking through. They're not thinking through the fact that they're also going to make a lot of mistakes with their kids.
- [43:01]
C
Yeah.
- [43:01]
B
And one day they're gonna have to reckon with that. So. Yeah, sometimes it is hard to watch the older generation that doesn't have access to some of the things that maybe we know now that could have helped them or could still help them, that they're not maybe open to that sort of thing. But it's something that's so tragic to me about all the cutting off and the canceling, because that. I don't know how you think that's not gonna happen to you when that generation figures something out that you don't know or Maybe thinks they know something better than you. And then I don't want. It's like, are we just gonna all die alone because we're gonna cancel all the emotionally immature people in our lives? I think that's was maybe more the point I was trying to make, so. I appreciate that because that helped me refine that and think that through a little more. Yeah.
- [43:46]
D
But then also to your point, like, are we just gonna cancel everyone? Well, when canceling is modeled.
- [43:53]
C
Yeah.
- [43:53]
D
And upheld as a virtue, then yeah. Why wouldn't I cut people off? But we don't think about that. But because of our arrogance, we tend to think, well, I'm gonna do it. Right. My kids would never cancel me. Until you end up sitting alone at Christmas.
- [44:09]
B
Yeah. Because even you can do all the gentle parenting in the world. That's gonna backfire too.
- [44:13]
D
Yes.
- [44:15]
B
All right. We're solving the world's problems.
- [44:17]
C
What's that? First, bear one another's burdens. Burdens like just show grace to each other.
- [44:22]
B
Yeah. Grace for, you know, even the ability or inability for that person in your life to even. Maybe they can't have the conversation. So where can you. You offer grace?
- [44:33]
C
Yeah.
- [44:33]
B
Not. You don't have to put yourself in an unsafe situation. Right, of course.
- [44:36]
C
Right.
- [44:36]
B
But how can you offer grace for what they don't know?
- [44:40]
C
Right.
- [44:40]
B
Because you know, there's stuff you don't know.
- [44:43]
C
Exactly.
- [44:43]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [44:45]
G
I hear this phrase all the time. The Bible is clear. And every time, it kills me because it's just not that simple. The Bible is clear about a lot of things, like slavery is fine, or to be a Christian, you have to give up everything you own to the poor. But when you ask. Ask people about those verses, suddenly that clarity starts to get really nuanced. In seminary, they gave us a tool for this. They called it the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. It's a way of discerning truth by balancing four things. Scripture, tradition, reason, and experience. And the idea is that wisdom comes from a conversation between them. But honestly, I don't even think that's really how it works. Richard Rohr reframes it more As a tricycle. Experience is the front wheel. Scripture and tradition are the other two. In other words, your experience drives how you interpret everything else. And that's the way it works, whether we bring awareness to that or not. So when someone says the Bible is clear, they're not actually telling you about the Bible. They're telling you about their experience, their relationships, their politics, their history with the church. The Bible was never meant to Give us one final, clear, unchanging answer. Like most sacred texts, it was meant to help us negotiate meaning, to put our experience in conversation with ancient, ancient stories, to challenge us and to affirm us. Because true wisdom doesn't come from clinging to certainty. It comes from learning how to negotiate over and over again as your experience changes.
- [46:05]
B
You know what's crazy about that is he's making this claim about what the Bible is meant to do with such certainty, which contradicts what the Bible says about itself.
- [46:15]
C
It does. And I just. I'm amazed at how certain he is.
- [46:18]
B
He's very certain.
- [46:19]
C
Yeah. Yeah. For. For a mentor.
- [46:21]
B
I'm still a little jerky on this one because all I'm picturing is Richard Rohr on a tricycle.
- [46:25]
C
Oh, that's adorable. That's coming in a gift basket to you. One day I'm gonna do a canvas of roar on a tricycle.
- [46:35]
D
It reminds me of the. The fact that so much of our conversation and culture right now is about living your truth and your experience, and that is the highest good. You need to share your experience. There's a con in Protestantism right now about how we understand scripture and looking at it through lenses of color and understanding, making sure we have all the people of different ethnic backgrounds at the table so that we can understand that we can't understand the Scripture, really, if we don't have all the people in the room. And that speaks to this idea of experience, like I have. In order for me to truly get to the meaning of the text, I have to have some other experiences in the room. And I'm not just talking about, you know, for application sake, and how do we apply this in this context over here, but actually getting to the meaning of the text, it starts with my experience. It starts with who I am as a black woman. It's a lot of that conversation. That's kind of what he.
- [47:41]
B
Yeah, that's. I think that is the point he's making, which, you know, if you think about it, it just doesn't make sense, because what if you grew up your life. Life, your whole life, and you never meet somebody of a different, you know, ethnicity or skin color, and you're just in a very isolated place. Does that mean you can't understand the gospel? You can't understand the Bible? Right. It's. It's. It's a. It's sort of a pervasive thing. And did you guys notice the kind of the. Well, I don't want to say bait and switch, but the. The move he made when he said, Richard Rohr describes it like a tricycle where you have experience in front and then the other two things behind. Therefore. So he's like not even giving evidence for why that would be the right way to look at it. Therefore, whenever you're talking about the Bible, you're really just talking about the experience. So he's just assuming that Richard Word's view on that is the accurate one.
- [48:28]
C
Right.
- [48:29]
B
Therefore. But he's given no evidence for it. Like, well, wait, slow down. Because the Bible, that's not what the Bible says about itself.
- [48:36]
C
Right.
- [48:36]
B
Scripture is living and active. All scripture is profitable for reproof, for correction, for training and righteousness. Those aren't relativistic terms. Those aren't terms of like, well, you're extremely experience. Well, no, it's like the Bible is presented and even how Jesus used the Bible is very interesting. With the Pharisees, he was quoting scriptures that were like 1500 years old at the time that he was quoting to them. And he expected them to know what they meant and not think, oh well, the meaning 1500 years later is now driven by your experience might be different. No, he appealed to the written word of God, expecting them to know what it meant, not be basing it on their experience or something like that.
- [49:14]
C
Right.
- [49:17]
B
One of the ministries I'm so honored to partner with is Alliance Family Services. Their vision is to compete directly with Planned Parenthood by operating a nationwide network of reproductive healthc care clinics that are not just medically exceptional, but unapologetically Christian. In fact, they believe that Christians should have the corner on reproductive healthcare because God is the giver of life. So they do extensive services like pregnancy tests, ultrasounds, STI testing and treatment, well, woman exams and a lot more like that. But they also provide a lot of services that Planned Parenthood doesn't provide, like life affirming prenatal care up to 20 weeks. In fact, they're one of only a few pregnancy help organizations who provide 24, seven care and immediate visits for women seeking abortion, pill reversal after they regret taking the first pill. And they get many of these calls. I really want to encourage my audience to donate to them. You can set up up a monthly donation or a one time gift by going to alliancefamilyservices.org Alisa, you can donate there. And this is just an amazing cause and my husband and I, we support them, we donate and I want to encourage you to do that as well. Again, go to alliancefamilyservices.org Alisa
- [50:34]
C
what struck me so much was, well, one explaining the things that the Bible was apparently clear on, on like it's approval of slavery and all that. He's like, oh, it's clear about that. And then of course the letter had. Half of the video is. But it's not clear. It's not clear on anything.
- [50:50]
B
Well then he says, yeah, if you bring up slavery, well then they're going to get some nuance. Well, I'm sorry, but you do have to do some nuance on how the Bible talks about slavery.
- [50:57]
C
Right?
- [50:57]
B
I mean, I'd love to say it's simple, but it's not. No, I'd love to say that that verse he brought up about Jesus with the rich young ruler, like, go sell everything. I'd love to say, well, yeah, because Jesus said it. That applies to everybody. But you have to have some nuance on that. You have to understand the context, text and what was actually going on in that passage. Which I actually used that because it's so. It's like the progressives favorite verse. So I wrote about it in my book and you know, it. It's. I think it's, it's such a bait and switch kind of move because if somebody doesn't know the Bible, they're going to be like, oh, well, Jesus did say that and Christians don't do that. So maybe the Bible isn't clear or maybe Christians are hypocrites when in reality, if you look at what was going on in the story, Jesus was identifying the idol in the rich young ruler's heart. He wanted to follow him. And Jesus, I love how Jesus was always this way. Like we in our modern culture are like, I'm going to give you five more minutes. Come down to the altar. I know the spirit's moving you. We're going to wait. We're going to wait for you.
- [51:54]
D
Come on.
- [51:54]
B
Come on down. You could die tonight. And Jesus is like, yeah, go sell everything you have. You want to follow me? You have to die. You have to see the crosses. You see people carrying to their deaths. You have to do that. Like Jesus was so the opposite of our modern life.
- [52:07]
D
Come on.
- [52:08]
B
He's like, no, really, let me try to talk you out of this. That's true. Not to get off on that verse. I love that verse about what I.
- [52:15]
C
He's like, you said roar puts experience at the front and then he treats that as fact. Therefore everybody uses experience. I thought that's that. Yes, people do that, but that's entirely a personal choice they've made.
- [52:29]
B
Right. And it would be incorrect to do
- [52:30]
C
that and it would be an incorrect way to navigate.
- [52:32]
B
If you are reading the Bible through the lens of your experience, then we would say you need to correct that.
- [52:39]
C
Yes, yes.
- [52:39]
B
Like we're not denying people do that.
- [52:41]
C
I would tell you to correct that for everything.
- [52:44]
B
Yeah.
- [52:44]
C
You can't navigate anything. What, am I going to go into the sciences and interpret everything based on my experience? Like, no, you, that just doesn't work. So that may be something people do. And he's commenting that it's what people do, but it's not how we should approach everything.
- [53:00]
D
And yeah, I think too, when we see videos like this, this where there's a lot of information, a lot of facts going on, so much you have to ask the question, but what is the true standard? Like, what is the true standard of scripture? How, what is the true standard for interpretation? How do I, you know, one of the things that we talk about is authorial intent. Like, how do I know what the author meant? But that, that goes into the standard. What is the standard that he's using to make these judgments about scripture and about what it's used for and what it isn't and all of that.
- [53:34]
B
Richard Roy.
- [53:36]
D
Yeah. And that's a mess on a tricycle.
- [53:39]
C
Yes, there it is.
- [53:40]
D
Yeah.
- [53:42]
C
I agreed with the model he gave that he rejected the Wesleyan model. I mean, we do evaluate long held traditions against reason, against scripture and against experience. It is about.
- [53:54]
B
Wait, are you saying you disagree with the Wesleyan model?
- [53:56]
C
No, I agree with it.
- [53:56]
B
Right.
- [53:57]
C
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I stay?
- [53:59]
B
No, yeah, I'm cool with it. I'm cool with the Wesleyan. With the Wesleyan quadrilateral. Yeah, we're down with the Wesleyans.
- [54:06]
C
Oh, we're down. Okay.
- [54:11]
B
Can I stay? Okay. So for people listening on the audio platform, I want to read what words were on the screen during that. So it was saying basically, like, when you find out that you can get drunk every day but you're still close to God because of Jesus, when you realize that you can get high but you're close to God because of Jesus, you don't have to read your Bible, don't have to pray, never go to church. And you know, he's just got this joyful thing realizing that he can do all these things because Jesus paid it all. And so this is a little bit of a different. This isn't more of, I guess it's kind of a type of deconstruction, but this is. I see this guy all the time on social media, and so it's kind of like this super, super hyper grace message that.
- [55:09]
C
Oh, he, he agrees with this.
- [55:11]
B
I don't know. I mean, I'm guessing because this is kind of what his videos tend to be like, is like you're, you're, you'll have so much joy when you realize that, like you can get high, you can get drunk every day and you can do all this stuff and, and you're still close to Jesus, to God because of Jesus. And so, so in my mind, it's like, you know how we as humans tend to go to extremes, right? So the fact that when we're saved, Jesus paid it all, right, we're justified before God, we're covered in Jesus righteousness. When God looks at us, he doesn't see our sin, he sees the righteousness of Jesus. But then we still sin.
- [55:47]
C
Yeah.
- [55:48]
B
And so what do we do with that?
- [55:49]
C
Well, I know you do.
- [55:50]
B
I know I do. Yes, I do.
- [55:52]
D
Girl, I can't even lie.
- [55:55]
B
Come share, come share. No, but you know, we still sin, so, so the question is, what do we do with that? So I think the two extremes are like the hyper, hyper grace where it's like, well, I'm saved by the blood of Jesus, so I can do whatever I want and just continue to sin. And it's all covered. And then the opposite extreme would almost be like a moralism, you know, like I'm going to pull myself up in my own strength by my bootstraps and just try to be the best not sinner, you know, in the, in the world. And so I want always talk about this because I think this is such an important point. Like one John talks about walking in the light. So sanctification, repentance, all of that is about walking in the light. Where the Holy Spirit convicts you, you respond to that, he gives you more light. And that's kind of the path we'll be on for the rest of our lives on this side of heaven until we really will be without sin with, with Jesus. So I, you know, it's, it's just such an interesting take. You see that a lot on social media. That kind of hyper, hyper grace.
- [56:52]
D
All I could think of is, if you love me, obey me. And the things that he was saying are not things that Christ would have spoken to, you know, or like, like as Christ spoke the scriptures, like there was to me this assumption that people would have understood the text, they would have understood the scripture. Well, I can't understand the scripture from not reading the scripture. You know what I mean? Or, yeah, just to me his examples just go against what the word of God says. And so how does, how do you reconcile that? When, if I really love Christ, I will obey him.
- [57:28]
B
Yeah.
- [57:28]
D
And so. But I do agree completely with the idea that we either live in like this legalism, moral ideal where I need to be working to do everything, or there's this hyper grace. And I'm not saying that, you know, if you love Jesus, then, you know, you obey him and we see this obedience as a form of work. That's not it. It is that because I love God, I want to obey him fully. I want to participate with him out of obedience from the word of God. And no, I do not think that there is any work of obedience that I can do that will save me. But my heart wants to obey. There is this voluntary, like it's the byproduct, you know? Yes, thank you. Such a good way to put it. That's the byproduct. And so I'm just wondering where is. Because he says you'll never read your Bible. Well, how do you, how do you know if you can or cannot do this if you aren't in your work?
- [58:28]
C
Well, the whole time I thought this guy is Catholic and he's this.
- [58:33]
B
Maybe he is.
- [58:34]
C
And he's straw manning the Protestant view.
- [58:37]
B
Maybe he is.
- [58:38]
C
I mean, maybe I. But because I see that so often, that could be.
- [58:42]
B
I mean, that really could be because I don't know a lot about him. I just see videos like this from him that are kind of confusing. So that may be. He may be straw manning that view.
- [58:50]
C
Who knows? But, so that was my first assumption.
- [58:53]
B
Like this is a hyper grace movement.
- [58:56]
C
Okay.
- [58:57]
B
Where, like there. I think there's a difference between free grace and hyper grace. So, like, we don't have to get into the weeds of all of that. But hyper grace is almost like this idea that you don't have to like, obey. You don't have to really even worry about it. And what scares me about that view is that of course, course it's a byproduct. Obedience is a byproduct. And nobody obeys perfectly.
- [59:20]
F
Of course.
- [59:21]
B
And even to your point where you were saying your heart wants to. I've even had times in my heart doesn't want to. And I pray, Lord, help me want to, want. That's my prayer.
- [59:29]
C
You know, drag me.
- [59:30]
B
You know the footprints in the sand where he dragged me? Like, that's me a lot of times.
- [59:34]
D
Yes.
- [59:37]
C
I don't remember the dragging, drag lines.
- [59:39]
B
And that's where I dragged you for A while. I feel that deeply. But obedience is, it's not perfect obedience. But if, if you have professed faith in Christ and there is no evidence of obedience, it's not ever perfect obedience. None of us do it perfect. But if there's no evidence of any conviction of sin at all, like, if there's no wrestling with any of this, if there's nothing in you that's like, oh, I know I probably shouldn't do that. If that's just gone and you're like, I'm free, then I would honestly encourage you to question your own salvation.
- [60:14]
C
Oh, yeah?
- [60:14]
B
Yes. Do fear and trembling with your own salvation. Work your salvation out with fear and trembling. Because that to me would be the evidence that there is no. There is no evidence of faith. There is no byproduct of true, authentic faith in Christ.
- [60:30]
C
And the two things that also struck out to me was when you meet your Savior and you reckon with what he's given you and how much he loves you and how much value he sees in you, I mean, you do come alive and you want to please this Creator. You're not sitting there thinking, what can I get away with? What can I get away with? What's the bare minimum? You want to please this amazing being that has shown such grace to you. So there's that. And then the second one was, it's so interesting that he's listing all these sins and celebrating them as Jesus is cool with it. It like, like he was listing getting drunk, getting high, things that harm your body and often harm you socially, harm your ability to provide for your family and relate to be like, these are just harmful in such a. A physical, tangible way. You can debate how harmful.
- [61:31]
B
Even secular people, you know, there's even laws about not drinking and driving because
- [61:35]
C
it's, you know, and he's saying, but Jesus is good with. I'm like, but if Jesus is the being that loves you and wants the best for you and like, how do you reconcile those two things that he's good with your self destruction, even just in a. On a physical, material level. We're not even talking about the spiritual side.
- [61:54]
B
Yeah.
- [61:54]
C
I was like, yeah. So I have to figure out, what's this guy's deal? It doesn't make sense on any level.
- [62:00]
B
If anybody knows his deal, put it in the comments. Is he Catholic? Is he free grade?
- [62:04]
C
Yeah, there we go.
- [62:05]
B
Go.
- [62:05]
C
Yeah. Does he just not understand the Protestant view and he's mocking it or.
- [62:09]
B
Either way, what we said stands.
- [62:11]
D
There it is.
- [62:12]
C
Either way, we're right.
- [62:13]
D
The Caption at the bottom says, the commitment of Jesus to you is too great.
- [62:17]
C
Yeah, it sounds like hyper grace.
- [62:19]
D
It does sound like hyper grace. But it also reminds me of like the first and second video of kind of like this all. You know what I mean? Where it's like theme of the all. He does it all. And in regards to my salvation, there's nothing more that I can do, you know, like, I can't participate in that. Cause I am a sinner. And it's not a. But it's an. And all of the other pieces are also true too. You know, the obedience, the. I'll show you my faith by my works. Like, you know, like all of that also stands too. And it. And you know, like. Or Paul's word, should we keep on sinning, right, so that grace may abound, you know, so there. There is truth in this. The commitment of Jesus to you is too great. Yes. He has such a great. Like a great price that was paid. And there's more. We have to investigate the.
- [63:19]
C
And you're not saved because of God, Christ's commitment to you. You were saved because you accept that commitment and return it.
- [63:28]
F
It.
- [63:28]
C
Right. It's a. It's the acceptance of that gift of salvation. It's that faith peace. Right? So he's dropped half of the equation,
- [63:37]
B
made my head spin out in a Calvinist, Arminian.
- [63:41]
E
Right?
- [63:41]
C
And just like, okay, I. I am a. I am happy. I know my Armenian position.
- [63:46]
B
I know it's like that because half of my brain is Calvinist and half is.
- [63:49]
C
I get that.
- [63:50]
B
I'm like, yes, no, yes.
- [63:51]
C
No, no. I agree.
- [63:52]
B
I disagree.
- [63:54]
D
I was just like, let me look up because. Wait, wait, where is it all going?
- [63:58]
C
But my. My underlying point is that there is.
- [64:06]
B
He.
- [64:06]
C
Like, he. It doesn't matter how great Christ's commitment is to you if you've rejected Christ.
- [64:11]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [64:12]
C
That's what I'm trying to say. So there is that piece of.
- [64:15]
B
Yes, you can say it in a Calvinist, Armenian, neutral way.
- [64:19]
C
There you go. Thank you. Because I get it. I get. I get it. I'm not trying to spot.
- [64:22]
B
I'm not a Calvinist either, but I just. I get all the comments from the Calvinist. We love you. All right. Anything else on that one? I don't think so. Is there. Is there another one or is that it? Mike. Okay.
- [64:35]
C
How long did we go?
- [64:36]
B
This was fun. This was fun. And my closing statement is everyone needs to just get off TikTok and go to church.
- [64:44]
D
There it is.
- [64:45]
B
Let's go to church. So, anyway, I want to thank my theology. Do what?
- [64:49]
D
I said, don't. Get your theology from TikTok.
- [64:51]
B
Yeah. Don't. Yeah. The devil has a Ph.D. in theology and he's on TikTok. Yeah.
- [64:55]
C
Yes.
- [64:55]
D
Do not.
- [64:56]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [64:57]
B
So good. Well, I want to thank my guests, Monique Duan and Phoenix Hayes. And let's remember, as we pursue Christ, let's keep a sharp mind, a soft heart, and a thick skin. So pray for me and I will pray for you. No turning right or left will make it through the road that's narrow and the gate that small. Don't give up. It's gonna be worth it all.
- [65:33]
F
So here's how you can save up to 70% on your favorite brands. From rebel.com has everything for your home, family and life.
- [65:39]
D
Life.
- [65:40]
F
From strollers to skincare at unbeatable prices. Every day, REBBL drops thousands of new products for up to 70% off. It's a constant stream of endless deals from brands like Uppababy, Nuna, Baby Bjorn, Nespresso, Breville, Wilson, Dyson, Caraway, and more. Every listing is one of a kind, and the best things go first. So you have to move fast. Save big on your favorite brands. Shop now for up to 70% at from rebel.com.