A (3:11)

Let's talk about two. Let's talk about two. Two components before you. I want to get to the sharing one, but the first one you mentioned is a hotly contested topic. Do you spank your children or not? I was brought up with the belt coming from a German grandmother and a mother who learned from her mother who was a full blooded German. And they spanked their kids and pulled their ears and pulled their hair and did all that to keep them in line. That was the way I was feared and talk about that piece. And I, I then of course want to hear about the, the toy sharing and whether.

B (3:49)

Okay.

A (3:50)

Yes.

B (3:51)

Well, my belief is that this idea that we should strike, spanker or hit children is really from the Bible, which is kind of sad to say, but what it really is, it's the, the proverb verse that says spare the rod, spoil the child. And that has permeated through for generations. The unfortunate thing is that people actually believe the literal interpretation of that. This is not what the Bible meant. And I will argue anyone with anyone about this and I think I will win the argument.

A (4:29)

Good for you.

B (4:34)

I. Because what the Bible was referring to, spare the rod. The rod is a spiritual. It means spiritual guidance. It means wisdom. It's what Moses parted the sea with. In Psalm 23 they say, Thy rod and thy staff comfort me. It's a way of guiding. It's what shepherds use to keep their sheep in line. If one goes astray, they bring them back with a rod. They don't hit them, they bring them back. And this is what parenting needs to be about. Shepherding our children, not spanking our children. Spanking is oppressive. It creates resentment, anger, it creates more violence. Why do we have all this violence? Because children are being visited with violence on a regular basis under the idea that this is what you're supposed to do. It is not what you're supposed to do.

A (5:34)

Until I met you. I misunderstood that and I'm an educated man. I did not understand the metaphor of the rod. I misinterpreted it because I thought the rod. Corporal punishment, you know, I mean Singapore, if you do something wrong, they can.

B (5:50)

Ya, absolutely.

A (5:51)

Very serious. And that's a big.

B (5:53)

Very serious.

A (5:54)

Yeah, very serious. You know that would. There was a story in the 80s where an American 18 year old American boy spray painted the side of a building. He got caught, I guess the term is tagging. And he got caned and then he came back and told the story and made a million dollars off of writing a book.

B (6:13)

Right.

A (6:14)

I thought, geez, I'll take a couple whacks to make a million. But they.

B (6:21)

Yeah, well that doesn't mean it's right in, in. Oh, I either. But that's, that's how they're controlling their society through.

A (6:30)

Sure. Through fear.

B (6:31)

Through fear and violence. It's certainly not the best way.

A (6:36)

Well, they don't have much of a, they don't have much of a crime problem. They, I mean, no, you get caught with drugs there, they, they kill you, they hang you and it's quite serious. They're, I mean it's the antithesis of what's going on in the U.S. right.

B (6:52)

Well, we've gone the wrong way there too as well. Of course. I think most people would agree. But the crime rate is going down and we can be happy about that.

A (7:02)

Well, there is that statistic that helps. But so the, the whole notion of whacking your kids. Even when I was in, in the. What was I in the second grade? I got in trouble. I did something. I put gum in some guy's hair. I was a nuisance and a naughty little boy. I get taken to the vice principal's office and I remember him pulling off the, I had it on the wall, it was on a little hook on the wall, a paddle. And he said, if I have you in my office again. He was the vice principal and he was a big man. I was a little thing, I was only seven. He goes, right, I'm going to spank your behind. Do you understand me, young man? And me being the smart ass kid that I was, I'll spank you back. And that didn't go over well. He started screaming at me, which my bad. That was the 60s, so it was a different time. Do you think evolved over time in that regard or.

B (8:05)

Yes, we have. Although I think that there's a lot of spanking going on in the home that people don't talk about. But I, I do think it's, I think in the schools they've got it pretty much under control. I don't think teachers are allowed to hit children, not anymore. When I was a freshman, two boys were giving the teacher a hard time. The dean of men. I went to a Catholic school, came in, the boys had to bend over and grab their ankles in front of the class and he walloped them so bad that they, they couldn't, he, they couldn't sit down for the rest of the class. But. And so did hit him with a

A (8:42)

paddle or a belt or.

B (8:44)

It was a belt. It was a wide belt because he was the dean of men and he was a priest, and he wore a long brown robe and then he had a big, fat, wide belt that he hit him with. Can't do that anymore.

A (8:59)

No.

B (8:59)

And so we can't do in the schools. We should also not be doing it in the home. There's a better way. You don't have to hit children.

A (9:06)

And there was the knuckles, too, I heard about in Catholic schools and in England. I mean, this goes back generations.

B (9:12)

Oh, yes.

A (9:13)

Undo. This is a big change. I'd say a positive change, because I feared my mother, man. She. I was crying before I went to go get the belt. She said, go get the belt. I was. I was. But that seemed to be the norm back then. All. All of my contemporaries were getting spanked too, in the 60s.

B (9:32)

Oh, yeah, everybody, you know, when they were denying it and saying things like, well, you know, I turned out okay, but it's really just a defense. It's not a good thing. It creates resentment, anger, and more violence. That's what you have to realize. It creates more violence in adults. Where do you think all this violence comes from in adults? It comes from childhood. They are not born violent. You know, they're just not. Babies are not violent. They learn it, and it's. It's a sad thing. And, you know, some people have a lot more than just a spanking. They have true violence, hitting, knocking their. Their teenage boys down. It's terrible. We have to stop it. If we can stop that in one generation, the society would be so much better off. So much better off. And not only that, it's not that hard. You just have to realize how profoundly wrong it is. And there's no basis for it. None.

A (10:31)

Okay, so what's the solution for when a kid misbehaves? He's done something, he's knocked over something you told him not to touch. As an example. And I know you had mentioned in a previous conversation we had at one point, your husband wanted to spank your son and you said no because we're all from the same generation. Roughly, yes. Of, hey, this is how we were raised. Our parents did it to us, and we're carrying it. We're carrying it forward. What? You made sure that that did not happen with your son. How do you discipline somebody? Or what action. Corrective actions are best to do today.

B (11:13)

Okay, so you use the example of a child knocked something over, they were told not to touch. What was a young child. That's what children do. That's a natural behavior. They're curious. They. You say, don't do it. They want to do it. So they do have to learn. However, you don't have to do all these negative behaviors. You can say, you know, mommy asked you not to do that. I feel really sad that you broke my vase that I loved, and I'm wondering how you feel about it. And maybe the kid would say, well, so what? And you can say, well, maybe you have some other feelings. Maybe you're sad too, or maybe you're angry at me and that's why you did it. Let's talk about that. So it's. You have to get to the feelings of why children are doing what they're doing. Because if a child is acting out consistently, they're not getting enough attention. They're not getting their needs met. If a child is knocking something over when you ask them not to, they're angry, they're acting out. They're doing it. They're doing it for. Because they're mad at something else you've done. Or maybe you're ignoring them or not paying enough attention. They're not getting their needs met. That's why children throw tantrums, okay? Because the child is hungry, he's tired, he doesn't want to be in the store anymore, and you just keep dragging him around. Pretty soon he throws a tantrum on the floor and, well, lo and behold, why did this kid do that? And then I'll need to spank him for that. And here we go. So. But what really is, is that the parent has not been meeting the needs of the child. They're not attuned to the emotional needs of the child. You have to be in teach.

A (12:56)

That's key right there. Not in tune to the emotional needs. I think that can happen in any. In an adult relationship as well.

B (13:05)

Absolutely.

A (13:06)

Different kind of acting out.

B (13:08)

Yes, absolutely. That goes from zero all the way up. If you're not aware of how someone else feels or how you feel, first of all, you need to know how you feel about most things, and then you can understand how other people feel. But if you don't teach children what they're feeling, give them words for what's going on, it's not an innate process. They need to be taught. It is innate that they have the feeling. But to label it, to understand it, to be able to articulate it, that's completely different. And a parent needs to encourage that. That's what creates emotional safety in a Home, where a child could say, dad, you really made me mad when you said such and such. Okay. And the dad goes, okay, tell me more. I want to know all about this. How can I make this better? What did I say that really offended you? Now you're in an interaction. You're attuned to your child's emotional needs, and you're listening to their anger. A lot of parents think this is disrespect. This is not disrespect. This is a child learning how to articulate their feelings. Now, where this really manifests is, like you said, in adults, in marriage, yes, partners need to be able to say, I'm mad at you. I'm sad about this. I'm not getting my needs met. What's going on? They need to say how they feel. They're afraid, they're hurt. And if you can't say that, then it. That's, you know, here comes the divorce. So it. It. But it needs to be learned early. And spanking doesn't teach anything. All these parenting tools that are ineffective, grounding, timeout, spanking, yelling. They're for the parents that they're the parents use them because they're good for the parent. They're terrible for the child. Terrible.

A (15:11)

So timeouts don't work.

B (15:13)

Not at all. And even in the research, they now acknowledge that. And they say that 85% of people don't even use timeout correctly. And timeout is kind of passing now, I think.

A (15:26)

Okay.

B (15:27)

I like to say that it was completely gone. I'm sure people still use it. It's completely ineffective.

A (15:32)

I use that with my ex wife, and that's why she's my ex wife. I said, you're getting a timeout,

B (15:42)

and then what? Yeah. So.

A (15:45)

Yeah, I said, put your nose in the corner and don't talk. No.

B (15:48)

Yeah.

A (15:49)

That went over so well, Susan.

B (15:51)

Yeah.

A (15:51)

I mean, it's so.

B (15:52)

Well, it's not to say that I didn't try some of these things when I was a younger parent. I. Right when I think my son was four, I. Oh, time out. Okay, I'll try it. It was. It was a farce. My son was not used to anything like that. And he was like, I'm not doing this.

A (16:09)

How about taking toys away or taking their phones away?

B (16:13)

Oh, another one. Another tool to punish a child that is completely ineffective. Creates resentment and anger toward the parent. It creates distant. You know, parents want to be close to their children. But if you're taking their cell phone away, if you're grounding them, how do you believe that that's bringing in closeness that is just alienating your child from you. Oh, you don't understand me. You know, all that kind of stuff. But I would. You have to ask yourself, do I want my cell phone taken away? Do I want to be putting time out like you said you did to your wife?

A (16:54)

Oh, I want to ingest. It was not.

B (16:57)

I know, I know. Do I want to be grounded because I did something? No. Well, why is it that a child would like that or why would that be effective? It's not effective for adults. Not effective for children either, when we just have these tools, because people don't know what else to do. They're. But they're ineffective. They're destructive. They create resentment, they create shame. It's abandonment. And one of the most difficult things, the most damaging thing that parents do to their children is conditional love. What do I mean by that? That means that you have to behave a certain way for me to love you. So if you break that back to the vase that got broken, he knocked it over, even though I said, don't do it, well, at that point, I'm not going to love you anymore. I'm going to ignore you. I'm going to punish you. I'm going to put you in time out. I'm going to ground you. I'm going to withdraw my love from you. That's where. That's the worst thing you can do of all. And all these are kind of forms of conditional love. I'll only love you if you do. Certain things can't be that way. It doesn't work that way. You always have to understand what is the motive for behavior for children. They can. You can figure it out, or they can tell you one or the other, but it takes a little bit more time. Swatting a kid, slapping a child. That takes two seconds. Sitting down and saying, what's going on with you? Why are you acting like this? I'm getting upset myself. What's going on? Are you angry? That takes time and compassion, but it pays off immeasurably. Pays off. When the children grow up, I'm going

A (18:56)

to ask a risky question.

B (18:58)

Okay.

A (18:59)

Your son is now. I think you said 35.

B (19:02)

Correct.

A (19:03)

How's your relationship with him?

B (19:08)

Well, it. Beautiful.

A (19:09)

Okay. And do you believe. Does he attribute your closeness? I know he's an only child, but he. Do you attribute the closeness? I know I. I knew the answer already, but I wanted people to hear it. Do you. Does he attribute the relationship that he has with you and Daryl, your husband because the fact that he wasn't humiliated, he wasn't punished, he wasn't whacked, smacked, slapped, penalized to the penalty. Bo you know, Xbox taken away or whatever, the toy.

B (19:41)

Right. Yes, I, I, he knows. He knows because his friends know when they tell him. His friends kind of all gathered around us because they saw this different way of parenting. We would have a lot of kids over to the house when he was in high school, even in elementary school, and he has a ton of friends, and they all know that he's a little bit different, and he was raised by these rules. And I, He's, He's a beautiful person.

A (20:12)

Did, did your fellow mothers, who. Let's say the mothers of the children with whom he associated, did they come to you for counsel? Was this, what.

B (20:23)

Sometimes. Okay. Sometimes, yes, they did.

A (20:27)

You know, little Jimmy's acting out. How do I handle this? Dr. Susan?

B (20:31)

Yes. Okay. Yes. My niece came to me quite a bit, and other friends would ask me, well, what about this? What about that? We would, we would discuss it in general. Most of my friends were very interested in having their children care about them and having a good relationship, and we would talk about it a lot. So, yes, they would come to me, but also, we would just discuss it in general, I think, too.

A (20:55)

All right, let's go back. You're one of many children. I think you said that you were a family of eight kids, was it? Or six kids?

B (21:02)

Yeah, eight children. Four boys, four girls.

A (21:05)

Wow. And where did you rank?

B (21:08)

I was fourth from the top.

A (21:10)

Fourth from the top. Okay, so you're right in the middle child, essentially.

B (21:14)

Pretty much, yeah.

A (21:15)

So the middle child. Did your parents raise you the old way, or were they a little bit more progressive in their thinking and rearing the old way?

B (21:27)

Okay. Big Catholic family. My. I had two older sisters, and my mother used a hairbrush on them, on the bottoms.

A (21:37)

Okay.

B (21:38)

My, My brother got the belt from my father, and I can still see where the belt hung on the back of the door. And when he would get it down, double it in half and hit my brother. I can see it as if it happened yesterday. It was very traumatic. That's the other thing. If you are an observer of abuse, you are a victim of it. So although when it came to be my turn, I somehow or another, it stopped at me. And I don't know if they got some kind of information. I did scream in the backyard one day, and the police came. I'm not sure that's related, but at any rate, it did. It stopped. And so I was not hit by my mother or my father, and I don't think the four younger were either.

A (22:29)

Would you not hit because you're a girl?

B (22:31)

He got. Yeah, I think that I was. Well, my sisters got it, but. Oh, when it came to me, somehow, I think I was pretty sensitive and they knew it.

A (22:42)

Or was it because you were more academically inclined? Did you. I would presume because you've got a PhD, you were probably very good in school and maybe were a good girl. Did that have anything to do with.

B (22:55)

That's probably true. Yeah. But I would. I did fight with my brother, but he always got the belt. Okay. And, yes, I did do very well in elementary school, and I probably was good, but watching everyone else get punished like that, I. I didn't want that.

A (23:13)

Oh, okay. So maybe that scared you to go. Yeah, a certain angle, maybe.

B (23:19)

I think that's probably true.

A (23:21)

But so what you worked on, what inspired you to become a psychologist? And I. I know that you offer parenting guidance. You speak about it, and then you also handle a component of addiction.

B (23:36)

Yes. As a coach. Yes, yes. Counselor. Life coach. Counselor. Yeah. I've been counseling clients with addiction issues for very long time. 20, 25 years. Although my parents didn't drink. My. Their. Both of their parents drank. My mother's father was an abusive alcoholic and would beat my grandmother. My. Both my parents, both my grandparents on my father's side were also alcoholics. So there. It runs in the family. So addiction has always been an interest of mine. And I started seeing clients that were in aa. They were sober, but they're. They still had problems. Their lives still weren't working. And that's where I came in to take a look at. Okay. What led to the drinking, what happened to you as a child? And if you. If you ask anybody what happened to them as a child and you are compassionate with what happened to them, you can then go. It's not that far off to say, well, your parents did some pretty abusive things to you, and this is why you feel terrible. They just go hand in hand, doing therapy and doing and. And understanding parenting. They go together. It's just one leads to the other either way.

A (25:02)

Well, and as I had disclosed to you the first time we met, I'm sober, 41 years in AA, actively involved. And what you said is absolutely true. I have some of my own probable old memories. Wounds. Yes, thank you for the right word. I was searching for wounds, emotional wounds. Would.

B (25:26)

Emotional wounds.

A (25:27)

And probably there were some physical ones because I. I came from that background of. Yeah, you spare the rod. You whip your kids, if they're out of line, you get spanked. There were no timeouts, came later. But I remember that. Of what. My mother defaulted immediately to what she knew from her mother. And my grandmother knew what she knew because they were German immigrants and got up in a farm. And, you know, she came from a family of 12 kids. And wow. Yeah, on a farm. Yeah. That's 12 kids. You came from eight. Add four. You know, so they all worked, but the ethic was there. But if you didn't, you. They feared my grandmother, greatly feared her father. Now, I never met my great grandfather. He was long gone, but okay. My grandmother re remembered exactly how she was treated. She never hugged her father. Her mother she had a relationship with, but the father figure was the disciplinarian. That was sort of the old school installation.

B (26:31)

That's right.

A (26:33)

I don't know. When your household with your son, was there any kind of discipline that was imposed or was it all conversational? Let's get to the bottom of this and move forward.

B (26:44)

All conversational. There were boundary setting, though. You have to realize that's. There's also boundary setting and that's a little. That's a little bit different. And I'll give you an example of that. So when my son was maybe 13, 14, there. There were these neighbors. They had four boys in the other house, and he would go over their house and he'd come back. And so one day he came back and he started like talking abusively to me. About what? I can't remember the content, but he was just acting strange. And I go, what, what is this? And, oh, you know, mom, you. You shouldn't do this and you shouldn't do that. And I thought, oh, wait, this comes from the other household. Ah. And I said, in this family, we don't speak to each other in that fashion.

A (27:34)

Did he curse at you or something?

B (27:36)

Yeah, I. It's hard for me to remember. What I remember is when this is when I said, in this family, we don't do that.

A (27:44)

Okay?

B (27:45)

We do not talk mean to each other for particularly for no reason. And he just came over and it was like he was trying out on me. I said, you must have heard them say all this. Well, he kind of then admitted it. But the point is, is that I just said, in this family, we don't do that. That's off. That's off limits. No way, Jose. You don't do it. And had he done it again, then maybe he would have had further conversation about it. But if you if you can. It's an easy way to set a boundary in which you make the child understand that how you act in your family is specific to your family. And you have basically, rules, which means you can't abuse each other verbally. No, we don't do that. We. We. We talk about our feelings or whatever that may be. But you can say, you can create this dynamic where the child understands what we do in our family and what others do that's different. And so boundary setting is. Limit setting is not punishment, but it does create an understanding for the child to say, this is unacceptable.

A (28:58)

So you explain things to the child, you explore and you get the feelings so you find what's really behind.

B (29:06)

Yes.

A (29:07)

Out. Oh, that's. And you know what's so interesting? All of this can be extrapolated into adult relationships.

B (29:14)

Oh, totally.

A (29:15)

It's all. It can all be pushed or carried forward. My gosh, you know, I know. No wonder I'm divorced. I gave her too many timeouts.

B (29:29)

No timeouts, man.

A (29:32)

Well, then I have a. I have a. An opportunity to marry once again. I. All right, no more timeouts. That's it.

B (29:39)

Okay. That's right. No more timeouts. You'll change your spousal role.

A (29:45)

All right, the other. I know you've got 20 precepts in your book, but we've got time for one more I want to hear about. And you touched on it earlier in our time together, and that was what you mentioned something about. Oh, it was important. About. Oh, my gosh, this is embarrassing, but everybody's listening. No, you talked about the importance of. Well, one is the hitting. And then the next topic you were talking about.

B (30:19)

Yeah. Was yelling as one.

A (30:21)

Yeah. Yelling. And the abuse component. And because I wrapped it back because the. The rod component is such a divisive topic and probably the most hotly contested. And it was. You talked about the timeouts, the discipline component, and think about the reward of working on acknowledging a child. Did you. Did you come from. Oh, this was the one I wanted to bring up. Did you.

B (30:54)

Okay. Did you.

A (30:56)

Reward Were acknowledged.

B (30:58)

Were.

A (31:00)

When he competed in athletics?

B (31:02)

Yes.

A (31:03)

There were participation awards.

B (31:06)

Yes.

A (31:06)

Are those good or bad? That was my question I wanted to ask.

B (31:12)

Okay.

A (31:13)

Yeah.

B (31:14)

Well, you know, they give everyone a trophy now. Right. Okay. All the young kids. I don't think there's any harm in it. Everyone. It's a. Like you said, it's a participation trophy. You did good. You were here. You showed up. You played terrific. I think as you get older, that needs to fade away. And I think it does, but I

A (31:34)

think not real life, is it?

B (31:36)

No, it's not real life. But you, you do want to acknowledge a child for what they did. They did it not Easy when you're 6 years old to show up, learn how to catch a ball, hit a ball, I mean that's a lot. And so you say, hey, this is good work. You get an A. And, and it's in the form of a little trophy. I, I, I see nothing wrong with that. However, as you get older, that's just nonfunctional.

A (32:04)

Well, because how do you, there's only one gold medal. Exactly, exactly. How do you get somebody prepared for gold, silver, bronze.

B (32:12)

No, you can't, can't continue on. I, but I don't think there's some people don't like that. Oh, it's permissive. Oh, it's silly. Well, these are six year old children. Seven. I mean I think my son started T ball four or five. So what's wrong with the trophy? I think it's fine. I don't know.

A (32:32)

So at what point where's that tipping point of where okay, this is real life now. And participate. Showing up to work isn't enough. You've actually got to work.

B (32:42)

I actually got to do something. Yeah. What grade?

A (32:48)

Yeah, essentially. And you don't have to have a hard rule, more or less. What's your been your experience there?

B (32:54)

I think up to third grade you can be completely permissive. If you want to call it engage, you know, you can do that, but I think pass that time, then you've got to start saying, well, you know, only the, only the team that wins gets a trophy or only the person who hit the ball out of the field. Maybe they only get a trophy, but I think it's pretty much fourth, fifth kids start to understand there's win and lose and it's okay.

A (33:25)

And that's life, right?

B (33:27)

That's life. So the younger kids, it's okay to indulge. And then fourth, fifth grade, stop doing all that and say no, just the team that wins.

A (33:39)

Got it?

B (33:39)

Got it.

A (33:41)

Dr. Susan, where do they get in touch with you? So let's you have your phone number, why don't you tell us that? So say it slowly so the listeners can hear it.

B (33:49)

Okay, my phone number, I live in Newport Beach, California and my phone number is 858-531-5346 and that's actually a San Diego area code. However, I used to live in La Jolla and now I'm in Newport. That's why that number is like that. 8, 5, 8, 5, 3, 1. 5, 3, 4, 6.

A (34:20)

One more time for those that are driving and need to Write it down. 8, 5, 8.

B (34:24)

Okay. Yes. 8, 5, 8. 5, 3, 1. 5, 3, 4, 6.

A (34:30)

Well, great. You have been a fantastic guest, as expected. We had a little fun, a couple laughs and yes, we did. That small distinction of understanding the metaphor of the staff and the rod, you opened my eyes to that. I didn't know. I was raised Christian, you know. You were raised Catholic. We were told about this. And yes, it was simply wrong. And because it's in a book doesn't mean it's correct. And it also was misinterpreted.

B (35:00)

Right.

A (35:01)

And I believe that to be true. The staff is the guiding staff, not the one that clubs kids.

B (35:08)

It's right. It's spiritual enlightenment. It's guidance, wisdom, shepherding. And that's the whole point, is that instead of thinking that you have to discipline, you have to punish your child. No, you guide them. You don't. You know, the shepherd's not beating the sheep, he's guiding. And if he goes astray, goes and gets him, brings him back. Right. That's how we want to view how we take care of our children. We have this idea that we need to oppress them in some way. Punish them, yell at them, hit them. And that this is going to be how you make a good person. It isn't. It just makes a sad person an angry person.

A (35:49)

Well, it can also get you arrested now.

B (35:52)

Well, that's true.

A (35:53)

Child Protective Services. Well, you've been a great guest. Thank you so much for your time today. Dr. Susan Thompson, our amazing authority today on the Amazing Authorities podcast. She will definitely be back again. Go to Amazon.com to buy her book, Parenting the Rules. 20 precepts, which you can use to implement in your parenting journey.

B (36:15)

Yes.

A (36:15)

And in your marriage. Hint, hint. Thank you, Dr. Susan.

B (36:22)

Thank you, Mitch.

A (36:23)

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