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The Amazing Authorities Podcast
The Power of Story: How Great Communicators Win in Court, On Stage, and in Publishing
00:39:56
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the Amazing Authorities podcast, where game changers, visionaries and category leaders share how they built their brands, platforms and global influence. Your host is Mitch Carson, international speaker, media strategist, and creator of the Instant Authority system. If you're ready to learn from those who've done it and want to become the go to expert in your space, you're in the right place.
- [00:32]
B
Michael Stockham is here today with us. He's a litigator out of Dallas, Texas. And one thing he promised me not to do is show his teeth because when lawyers show their teeth, you could be in trouble. And he just smiled. Oh, my gosh. But he, he's, he's a bit of a. An interesting case because most lawyers think quite pragmatically and strategically how they're going to win their case. And it involves a little bit of storytelling for a jury. Yet Michael's got a more expansive brain in a little bit of our pre call and you're going to learn about that today. Michael Stockham, welcome to the show.
- [01:12]
C
Welcome. It's a bl. I'm glad to be here. It's a blessing to join you.
- [01:16]
B
We talked a little bit about the art and experience of storytelling. There is a process to take somebody through the story. I'm sure you've broken it down. The same holds true when you are talking to a jury who you've got to convince. You take them through step by step through a story to a conclusion to persuade them to embrace your point of view, to embrace the main character in this. And where do you find your parallels? I find that topic interesting. I've always been amazed by the power of a litigator in a courtroom.
- [01:56]
C
Well, you've hit the nail on the head there. The most powerful litigators running around are the best storytellers. And one of my great heroes and mentors, a big trial lawyer in Houston called Rusty Hardin, believes that all trials are morality plays. He takes it back to just core concepts of fiction and storytelling, which is. Is one of my fundamental beliefs. And so when you start into a new case or you start into even writing a book or whatever, the core fundamental things are, are clarity, simplicity, and chronology. You have to put things in order. You have to explain them in a way that everybody can grasp. And then you have to do it in a clear manner that evokes an image or a picture or a feeling or an emotion. And those skills are the same whether you're in front of a jury or you're the author with a book trying to persuade somebody to enjoy Your story
- [02:57]
B
same holds for a public speaker. I would imagine you've done some speaking in your day, and when you're there to present, you essentially are engaging with an audience. In the case of the courtroom, 13 people, and moving them from one place to another. Now, how do you apply that in your novels, in your thrillers that you write? And I'm sure that you chose your category for a reason.
- [03:25]
C
I did choose it for a reason, and that's a great question. So let me take it from an interest a little bit different angle.
- [03:33]
B
Sure.
- [03:34]
C
I'm an absolute firm believer that the death of communication, especially public communication, occurred around the publication of Microsoft's PowerPoint. And the reason for that is because it becomes a crutch. And it's basically a very visual way for someone to put their speech outline notes onto some slides, put them up on a projector, and then read them to everybody. And so the art of storytelling, of captivating, of engaging with an audience sort of was crippled. And that cut off a lot of presenters from the audience in the room. They don't understand the feedback they're getting. They don't know how to get out from under losing the audience, if you will, because their. Their presentation has become, for lack of a better term, boring. The. The. So engagement of your audience is one of the key critical tasks and objectives of any presentation, whether it be at trial, public speaking. And it's certainly the ultimate task of being an author. And that's particularly poignant in this day and age when Kindle is around, social media is around. If you're not able to engage, capture people's attention and entertain them so that your message is worthwhile, they will move on to the next curious thing in a heartbeat.
- [05:09]
B
Much like we're seeing the scrolling with TikTok and short videos, the shorts category of YouTube. You get these snippets of people and you've got to start. And many people have broken it down. Here are the hooks to get people caught in, but you also have to have some substance behind that. It's one thing to capture attention doing cute graphics, but you have to sustain them and walk them through the entire process. And that's what I see lacking with some of these social media posts. It's like, okay, you've piqued my interest, but where are you going with this? Same with a book. Then you've got to get them hooked right in the beginning, don't you? Or the story in a movie. A movie is also in that category, which is an abstract from a book,
- [05:51]
C
isn't it wonderful concepts. So the opening scene of a movie, the first chapter of a book. Very important. When I trade new trial lawyers, I tell them that the jury needs to know why you, who you are and why you win within the first 30 seconds. Wow. You can go back, you can go back over the next. However long it takes you to make the opening argument and put meat on those bones. But you need to spend a critical amount of time writing no more than say 150, 200 words that explain why you should be victorious immediately before the social media brain clicks off and they start wondering, you know, what they're going to make for dinner tonight. And it's the same thing in the book, right? People have lots of other things to do. They do not have to read your novel. You have to make them want to read it. So you got to grab their attention.
- [06:48]
B
Unless you're in college and it's part of your creative writing curriculum. Yeah, you're forced to read. You're forced to read Animal Farm or what have you. A great metaphor of life nonetheless, where. What kind of structure do you believe is important? And I would imagine there are parallels because I'm a professional speaker by trade, been all over the world doing that. And I am totally agree with you about PowerPoint. PowerPoint, used correctly, is an incredible tool because you can. I show. No, I. When I present, there are no text items. It's image. Then I talk and it's looking at this image as a result. Because the American, not the, not just the American brain, the English speaking brain because it's different in different cultures because they, they can compute visual and, and they can look at an image and read at the same time English. You cannot, you have to do one or the other. There's been stud that. So if you show the image and you talk about it, they can look at it. But if there, there's text and they're hearing you, the mind gets confused and it's less effective. So when you do that in a courtroom, it's all audio, isn't it? When you start with your opening, it's all creating that picture.
- [08:16]
C
It is 100%. Unless you want to. You can have graphics or evidence or whatever you want to put. But you are. I, you and I are on the same page. The last. Well, one of the closing arguments I gave just a little while ago trial that included very few words other than snippets of actual documents. But it was almost all graphics. Almost everything I do is image based, smart public presentation, image based in the courtroom. Then you have to translate that to a novel because I don't write graphic novels. So you have to be very quick to translate the words into an image that the, all that the reader can grasp in the very first paragraph or so.
- [09:07]
B
So it's in their mind's eye. You have to create this image.
- [09:10]
C
Correct. And I think one of the ways to do that is to simplify your language. And this is, this is sort of theories that I've developed over time because I've had to teach a lot of people to write in legal world. I teach them how to write or offer advice if they ask in the writing world. But when I teach young lawyers to write, I tell them, well, I'm pretty easy to work with. But I don't want any adverbs, I don't want any passive voice, I don't want any nominalizations. And I want you to try to make every sentence you write in a legal brief under 20 words. So what I'm trying to create there is the ability to distill thoughts into bite sized bits so that they can order it into a cogent and clear argument. And those, those general principles have translated into my novel writing. I don't have any passive voice in my books if I can avoid it.
- [10:10]
B
Explain passive voice for people that may not know what that is.
- [10:14]
C
Yeah, so it's, it's, it's basically something in which you take away the subject of the, or the actual doer. So let's say a, I'll give you a simple example. An order was issued stating when trial would occur. That just assumes that the actor is the court in that it doesn't have a subject, verb, object, structure. It's much more clean to say the court issued an order setting trial for 8 October or whatever it is. Now that's a simplified version. But what that does is it allows you to make every sentence active. It allows you to make every sentence have motion. And that creates a certain velocity in the writing, a certain velocity in the text itself. And the simplicity adds to comprehension, the velocity adds to interest and it also
- [11:16]
B
takes away the presumption that people will understand. I, I would imagine, yes, if you leave things vague and assume that they know, if you assume that they understand your acronyms, you've just lost somebody. And without a doubt. And some copywriters, I, I was a journalism major in college and we were taught when you write sales copy, you know, which is different. Again, keep it at about a sixth grade level because if you impress somebody with your college educated vocabulary, that's Great. That's good for mom and no one else, because you've just lost your reader. So do you use dual MIT legalese in your. In your discussion and in your novels? Do you keep it very simple?
- [12:05]
C
I do, especially in my novels. So it's not even sales copy. I mean, in general, most. Most people quickly comprehend. Not saying that they can't comprehend, but most people quickly comprehend and will get engaged in something at about the fifth or sixth grade level. And if you engage on that level, then again you create this velocity. The problem with legalese, which I try to avoid at all costs, is that it does two things. One is it creates friction because the person reading it has to try to remember what the jargon is or what the meaning is of the legal term or the legalese. And two, I think it becomes a crutch for individuals who have not thought out their. Their point or thought out their argument, or in the case of a novel, thought out what the scene is really about, what the dialogue is, what's really important, what should be said, what shouldn't be said, what can and can't be said. And if you. If you make things complicated, like when I read a very complicated brief with lots of long sentences, one of my first reactions is this author didn't take enough time to try to figure out what they really wanted to say. And I know that's bias on my part. Sure, you really wanted me to get your point. And if I think of it from the point of a judge on a bench, a judge is overwhelmed. They have too many cases. They don't have time to mess around. They want to know what's the point? What decision do you want to make and why do you get be. Why should I make the decision your way? So you want to be efficient. And the easiest way to do that is to take the time and give the courtesy to the audience, the court or the reader or whatever, a clear message that achieves your objective as a writer, either argument or entertainment.
- [14:16]
B
How did you figure out the business side of being an effective writer? I'm talking now. I'm switching gears a little bit away. It's but one. For example. One. One good example for us both to relate to. I've read probably every John Grisham novel. I love his writing style. He was an attorney like you. I don't think he practices law anymore. I think he's too busy counting his money. But he's done an exceptional job. Engaging. And he mentions he was a former lawyer in the south somewhere. I don't know What I think was Alabama or Georgia or something.
- [14:54]
C
Mississippi lawyer.
- [14:55]
B
Mississippi lawyer. Okay. Yeah. And he did a. He's done an exceptional job. Was he an example for you to follow in terms of the marketing side? Because he. He's had movies made from his novels and was he an inspiration?
- [15:11]
C
Definitely an inspiration and an aspiration. Without a doubt. He actually. Some of his first novels, the Firm and A Time to Kill, I think, were actually written on legal pads while waiting for court decisions or juries to come back. I mean, filling the time.
- [15:29]
B
Wow.
- [15:30]
C
Getting writing. He came of age into his prime as an author before Amazon.
- [15:37]
B
Yes.
- [15:38]
C
Or what I would say, the democratization of publishing. So his journey to marketing and success would be markedly different to say to. To use a pun, I guess, than mine, because he would have had to have found an agent, a publishing house. It would have been this. The similar.
- [15:59]
B
The old route.
- [16:00]
C
The old route of, you know, a thousand rejection letters and finally someone says yes. Same thing with Scott Turow, who is.
- [16:10]
B
I've read his.
- [16:11]
C
Also another great lawyer and great fiction writer. He's still a partner, I think, at DLA Piper. So he's had the dual track career and I kind of watch him as a mentor as well.
- [16:22]
B
Well. And there was Michael Crichton, who was a lawyer.
- [16:24]
C
Yes.
- [16:25]
B
Who wrote he. God, I loved his writing too. It's just, you know, some of these go to law school or med school and then. And then the creativity gets tapped in. Same with you. You've got this creative side to you, but you might have realized the practicality of having a law degree and holding a law practice or being involved in a big firm. You know, one pays the bills, one. One pays for your passions.
- [16:49]
C
Absolutely. They are symbiotic, there's no doubt about that. And they're very helpful to have together just to move forward. General goals in life. And so I enjoy that greatly. As we mentioned in the pre call, I started off as a student in studio art. I wanted to be a welder, an artist that welded sculptures.
- [17:10]
B
Wow.
- [17:11]
C
And a painter. And I studied that and then moved into creative writing and got a master's degree in that and then ultimately moved into the law. But there has been sort of a part of me that will not release off of the creative impulse. And so I come back to writing and. And other creative endeavors on a regular basis.
- [17:34]
B
So obviously you get paid well as a. As an attorney in a big law firm. Have you been able to match that income as a creative writer in the fiction category or. Not yet.
- [17:45]
C
So not yet. But I don't think we're. I, I think there's a pathway to that.
- [17:50]
B
Okay.
- [17:51]
C
And I think that the, the world, the world of publication, self publication, the democratization of publication, the, the absolute explosion of the numbers of the areas in which you can market reach readers. The forums online like BookBub and others where people are engaging. Goodreads where readers are engaging with authors and you can create followings. I think that adds a true opportunity for individuals to plot their pathway to an income that's success. Sizable and sustainable.
- [18:30]
B
How did I think you mentioned in. In our pre call about the marketing and you know, Grisham, as we mentioned, was the old way. We had a publicist, he problem and he hired or he got picked up by a big publishing house and they took him. Today it's a totally different game. You know, my first book was with John Wiley and Sons, a traditional publisher. I went through the route of having, you know, we're talking 2006. This is literally 20 years ago. The game has changed. It's upside down. It's not. Not capsized. It's just different. It's a different boat that you've got to jump on today. Totally different. How do you market your books effectively? Because you've got some impressive numbers of sales.
- [19:14]
C
Yeah, there's a. So I think part of it's a paradigm shift. A publishing house, authors. Before the democratization of publishing, an author I think was seen as quote, talent. They were somebody to be picked up by a publishing house and then advanced with internal editors, publishers, I mean publicists, all that kind of stuff. The new framework I think going forward is just a little bit more like an author as a general contractor, where you have the idea, you have the drive, you want to do the creative, the creative side of it. And then it's an issue of going out and finding subs that can help, who can coach, who can edit, who can, who can you find to do quality book covers? Who do you find? How do you put together even strange things like how do I put together a group of 12 beta readers to get unsolicited, not well solicited, but unvarnished advice or thoughts about unfiltered advice? Yeah, unfiltered. So you're really breaking down all of the gears of a publishing house and then trying to figure out, okay, can I do that? Is that subcontracted? And then where do I go find the talent to do that subcontracted piece?
- [20:36]
B
Yeah, if you don't like plumbing, get a plumber. Yeah. And that's the editor you needed an editor is so important because you suffer from, you don't even see the mistakes.
- [20:49]
C
As an old friend of mine said, you can't dig your own Tilly. You've got to, you've got to have somebody to give you the straight advice.
- [20:58]
B
What have you done in the marketing area? I know it's a little different in fiction, but not that much. What have you. What, what would you advise a newer author or someone that's just getting into the publishing either fiction or non fiction? Because as I said, I, I think they're parallel, but there are some dovetailings that go on. But what would you advise in terms of marketing?
- [21:21]
C
A couple of points I think bookbub is very helpful for if you can get in. Well, it's their BookBub ads are, is a platform that you can use that's reasonable, can be effective. They have great dashboards for, excuse me, realizing what campaigns are, are working and which ones aren't. You can turn them on, you can turn them off. So it's a good way to manage sort of a, an advertising campaign.
- [21:52]
B
But do you have a positive return on ad spend?
- [21:56]
C
So it's difficult at the start, right, with book. With fiction, I think it really becomes an issue of selling into the second, third and fourth book.
- [22:10]
B
Okay.
- [22:11]
C
Getting the read through income, right? So the big names that you're seeing in publishing right now in, in the self publishing world, the Melinda Lee's, the freedom McFadden's, those folks, their incredible numbers, I mean incredible revenue numbers are driven mostly by the read through pattern of,
- [22:32]
B
of their group because they have multiple books. So a series of books.
- [22:36]
C
Yeah, 100. So if you did a free day giveaway on say Goodreads or Bookbub or something like that, a featured deal and you were able to put out 40,000 copies of a book in three days, that may be giving those ebooks away for free. But the second and third book, especially in a series, those are not going out as free. And so hopefully you've engaged people enough in the first book to read through to the second, third, fourth and onward. And the revenue stream starts to come in through the read through activity. Not necessarily the loss leader.
- [23:13]
B
So that could apply to nonfiction as well. That same strategy. Because if you've got a series of books on public speaking, you know, this is how you, you do this, this and this. And that's in book two and three. Great strategy. Give away 40,000 essentially if there is that much interest in that category and then you, you reap the Rewards on books two and three, almost a loss leader, 100%.
- [23:40]
C
And I think Mark Dawson, who's a fiction writer out of London, another lawyer, reformed lawyer, author, has a number of great series. They're mostly action books, but he's got three or four specific series. He's very prolific writer. He writes a lot. And I believe his read through revenue is unbelievably impressive. Probably a million pounds or more a year.
- [24:08]
B
Well, I've got a friend out of Japan whose name is Ken Honda who is the biggest author in the non. He writes in nonfiction, but about money and finance and a lot of mindset. He sold about 9 million copies of his books in nonfiction in Japan. He's now entering more into America. Yeah. And he's written about 140 books. His royalties are huge in Japan, different market. But his book Happy Money has sold very well in the US and he's been embraced because he's got that, those numbers. He writes a book a month. That's his cadence that sets in there. It's just that's what he do does when he's taken around in his car in, in Tokyo, he's in the back seat with a laptop. A desk is made up in the back seat. If you are of means in Japan, you have a driver, Right. Just how it works there a little different than us. You have to be super rich to have a driver in our country.
- [25:07]
C
Yeah, no, I mean it makes a lot. To me, it makes a lot of sense. It's the read through activity. It's the ability to put more product out on the market. The ability to do that at cadence is really the discipline. And for me as a, as a dual career person right now, I think that's the, the greatest hurdle, if you will, is finding all the time to do that. And it's really sort of the idea of how do you set up schedules and systems to try to increase input on the creative endeavor while still moving forward at the normal quality and excellence you have in the day to day endeavor.
- [25:47]
B
So there's Bookbub you mentioned Goodreads, making sure that you get involved with that as a, as a start. How important are reviews?
- [25:58]
C
I think they're very critical. Certainly nobody wants a bad review, right? That's not what you want. It's good to have. And, and this is one of the things that the loss leader can do for you as well is if you're distributing that out and it's going out on Amazon, Kindle at whatever, a thousand, two thousand, ten thousand or what on a lost leader, you can end up with a number of, of good 5 star reviews as the. One of the very first things that the consumer sees on the page when they go to visit about the book and that creates a favorable feeling about your writing in your book and etc. Etc. Just without your description, etc. So I think they are extremely, very helpful. You know, there are a number of organizations that I think do really good jobs at being honest in their reviews. Even though they're sort of a pay for service like Kirkman's review. Their literary titan.
- [27:01]
B
Right.
- [27:02]
C
But they can be very helpful because they're professionals. They're not just somebody. They're not just blowing smoke. I mean they'll give you an honest review about the book and you can use it or not you use it. And striving to get a good review from them can be very beneficial to marketing campaigns.
- [27:19]
B
No, Kirkus has been around a long time and they're expensive. It's like $450 to get a Kirkus review. If you're starting out, you need an editorial review. And do you also include A plus content?
- [27:33]
C
I've not used them before or heard of them, but always curious. That's one thing I do know about it is this is a consistent and constant learning journey.
- [27:41]
B
Well, A plus content is below the author description. You know, on the profile page of the book there might be up to four sections with visual components explaining the book enticing reader. Yeah, it's A plus content available in Amazon. So it has made a big difference because if somebody's on the edge of buying, this pushes them over the edge. Oh wow. There's a lot. Some beautiful graphics in there so that it's something to look at. I'll be happy to tell you about that offline a little more. No, no, it helps to. Do you also buy any Amazon ads? Do you do any advertising you mentioned that you buy on Bookbub?
- [28:24]
C
We do. We have run Amazon ad campaigns. We've also done some Facebook campaigns. And those are right now. I think we're sort of in the testing phase of those, if you will. The critical sort of place you can stub your toe on both of those platforms is they can, they can run up a bill pretty quickly.
- [28:48]
B
Yes.
- [28:48]
C
So there's something that you have to monitor. You have to monitor them constantly. And in my current situation with Cadence, it's very hard to just have that constant oversight of those two. So I don't use them as much. But I can tell you, and I referred to Mark Dawson earlier, his campaigns and the Way he markets his book and his entire success has been built off of Facebook ads. So, so they can be very, very effective. Amazon ads can be very, very effective and I think they can drive again even on the loss leader strategy. If you're gonna sell, if you wanna sell the book for 99 cents or 299 as the first ebook to drive that read through revenue, I think they can be very effective.
- [29:34]
B
What have you done? If you were to identify the top three tactics to create your success because you have impressive numbers and you can share those if you like. In terms of your thriller category, I know it's the read through component. You got to look at book two and three to get, to create that brand awareness or you know, author awareness. What, what are those tactics?
- [29:56]
C
So the most successful have been the, the, the, the book specials off of like BookBub, like a featured deal where you put it out at 99 cents or free to get it, to get people to read the other books etc on those. I mean the typical, if they set it out on my first book, if they set it out as a, as a featured deal in the thriller category, it goes out in the email to all the thriller readers on their email list. The typical return is about 30 to 40,000 books in a three day period while that runs. Wow.
- [30:37]
B
Wow.
- [30:37]
C
So that's a lot of books that go into the, into the Funnel in a one day period and that's about a 600 investment. But you can see that when you compare it to running a 500 or $2,000 ad campaign on one of the other platforms. It's a pretty good way to inject a lot of momentum into the project.
- [31:01]
B
Now you wouldn't do that for your first book. You would assume that there's a second book that people can then buy at full price or at least a dollar amount. So you may give this away. But if, what if someone's a first book author, they've just written their first book, they're so happy, what advice do you give them? Or just say hey look, you better have book two in the sequence in the pipe.
- [31:24]
C
So three things you better be working on. Books two, three, four or whatever. If you want to replace. If you want to be a full time author and replace whatever income you now have, then you need to have a system and a sequence of books, whether it be a series or a number of different books so you can, can get the read through. The second is if you're interested in selling for some kind of revenue, then I would probably approach the book Bub. Ads first as a place to learn how to make simple ads, how to put things together, how to put campaigns together at a reasonable price. Reasonable price. And then the third thing is I, I would say don't be, don't, don't get discouraged. It's not, this is not, I've learned, this is not an easy path. Like you don't write a book and become John Grisham overnight. There's a lot of slugging and hard work and it's in the trenches and it's just like any other entrepreneurial effort. There are days that it just seems like it's not going to work and that you want to walk away from it. So you got to keep your, your enthusiasm up, you got to keep your energy up, you got to believe in the project and keep moving forward.
- [32:38]
B
All right, well, that's outstanding advice. And that applies to fiction, non fiction. It's, it's the, the marketing out there, son. What did you learn in the beginning? Did you stub your toe in the beginning when you became a first time author?
- [32:54]
C
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we've, I, I am a big fan of the phrase fail forward. Okay.
- [33:02]
B
I love it.
- [33:02]
C
You know, you just keep learning things all the time. No matter how many times things are copy edited, there can be mistakes and people on the Internet are very happy to point everything, anything negative out. So you, you fix, you work yourself through the system to eradicate that. Figuring out the cadence, like I said, of how to get all these subcontractors together in time to put together a project so you meet a publishing deadline can be difficult. Trying to figure out how to dovetail it into a normal life. Whether you're a professional or some sort, or home with kids or whatever you're doing, you've got a life that has other demands on your time. You've got to figure out how to, how to fit that all in. So there are a thousand places to stub your toe. I think the best lesson is a little bit of grace and a lot of patience.
- [33:58]
B
Show us your books.
- [34:01]
C
Let me. I don't actually have one on my desk.
- [34:04]
A
Oh, all right.
- [34:05]
B
Well, let's hear the. Tell us about your books. Yeah. I mean, my gosh, you're an author yourself. I got to give you a little platform here, Michael.
- [34:13]
C
Yeah. So the very first book I wrote is called Confessions of an Accidental Lawyer. It's based on a very. A trial I did as my first chair at a federal court case for a civil rights trial. I was appointed to represent a prisoner who was in solitary confinement and could not prepare for trial by himself pro se because he was locked up 23 hours a day. And it, it tells the story of my friendship with Edwin about me believing I was going to meet this rough and gruff sort of rugged, mean bank robber. And that really what I came to understand was a kindly old man of about 75 years old who was an amazing jailhouse lawyer, had a great sense of humor and just wanted a jury to hear his story about how the prison was mistreating him. And so that was a lot of fun. And then the second book is. Is called Jake Ties that Blind and it's available both of these are out on Amazon available and Jake Fox is complete fiction. I moved away from inspired by True Life which is has its own difficulties process and moved away and just decided to tell to come up with a story of a big firm lawyer from Dallas who moved back to his hometown of little hometown of Haven, Texas to sort of a redemption story if you will. And that's been a lot of fun because I get to world build and create the whole set up. It's a fictional town, so anything goes. If I want to make it happen, it can happen. Not in a magical fantasy way, but if I want to have a diner, it can have a diner. If I want to have a road or it just automatically crops up and I get to create all the characters which I think quite frankly are the core of great fiction. People love characters. If you look at the current big streamer streaming successes Yellowstone Anything by Tyler by Sheridan, Taylor, Sheridan, Taylor Sheridan, anything by him. It's all character based. I mean there's a lot of plot but it's the characters that keep people coming back. And I think that's the core of any great fiction and quite frankly at the base of it that's the core of a great trial is you have to make people understand the characters and love your client more.
- [36:49]
B
Ultimately.
- [36:50]
C
Yes. Yeah. That's great.
- [36:52]
B
Well so the I'll certainly put it in the show notes and the names of your books.
- [36:57]
C
The yeah, absolutely.
- [37:00]
B
And you've been an outstanding guest. Outstanding. Shared. Fantastic. No really good gems. Tactical. Not just the big you talk big picture. You've and I love the metaphor of the general contractor. You got to find your subs correctly and manage them in order to make this house, this book come to fruition. And the paint's got to dry before you sell it, you know, and get all those elements together and marketing and the idea about Bookbub and you've made money on the sell Through. So don't expect to make millions on the front end. It's more in the back end. You've got. It's a longer game, isn't it? The tortoise wins the race.
- [37:46]
C
100 tortoise wins the race. And as my grandmother used to say, you just eat one frog at a time. That's the only way you can be successful.
- [37:53]
B
I love that. It's the sea. Yeah. It's the, the series that sells. It's not one book. Very seldom do we have those books that sell.
- [38:02]
C
Yeah, very seldom. I mean, even the greats, the books that you read in college that are the canon of western literature, those people, those authors wrote an enormous number of books.
- [38:14]
B
Well, and there, there are exceptions. The one that I like to talk about, and this is going to reveal my age, but there was a New York Times best selling book titled what Men Know about Women. And there were no words in the book. Do you remember that book?
- [38:32]
C
No.
- [38:33]
B
Yeah, it was a New York Times bestseller. It was written by a woman, but there was nothing inside. Men don't know anything about women.
- [38:39]
C
Oh, that's funny. Yeah.
- [38:41]
B
And it was all marketing and it worked. She sold it because of the COVID There was nothing inside. We don't know anything about the opposite sex. Yeah, yeah, it was, it was interesting. Pure marketing. She was brilliant. Brilliant.
- [38:58]
C
That is a brilliant thing. That's right up there with Prep Rock.
- [39:01]
B
Exactly. It was all marketing. Big hat or you, as you say in Texas, big hat, no cattle.
- [39:07]
C
That's right. Yep.
- [39:09]
B
So true. But you, you have a big hat and you got a lot of cattle. Got a lot of head out there to share with us today, Michael and I wish you all the success and I appreciate your time today to share your wisdom so freely with our listeners.
- [39:24]
C
Absolutely. It's been a blessing to be on. It's been a great conversation and I really enjoyed it.
- [39:29]
B
Thank you so much.
- [39:30]
A
Thanks for tuning Amazing Authorities podcast. If today's episode inspired you, take a moment to subscribe, rate and leave a review. It helps more experts like you rise to the top for behind the scenes access and free resources to boost your authority. Head to MitchCarson.com until next time, stay amazing.