← The Amazing Authorities Podcast
The Amazing Authorities Podcast
The Truth About ROI: Dave Valentine on Ethical Marketing, Scalable Growth & High-Impact Ad Strategies
00:48:51
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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to the Amazing Authorities podcast, where game changers, visionaries and category leaders share how they built their brands, platforms, and global influence. Your host is Mitch Carson, international speaker, media strategist, and creator of the Instant Authority system. If you're ready to learn from those who've done it and want to become the go to expert in your space, you're in the right place.
- [00:31]
B
Now. We are here. Dave Valentine is in the house, and he is an amazing Authority, hence the Amazing Authority podcast. Dave, where are you calling in from?
- [00:44]
C
I'm calling from just about an hour northeast of Portland, Oregon, on the Washington state side. I live in the Cascade Mountain range on a river in the middle of nowhere. Mitch, it's beautiful.
- [00:57]
B
Oh, my God. I guess you haven't invented the word suffering.
- [01:03]
C
Oh, there's plenty. Plenty of suffering has been had in the life, but not anymore. Yeah, no, I don't.
- [01:09]
B
I'm just saying in terms of environment, is. Sounds majestic. I'm on the beach in Jomtien, Thailand. Jomtien Beach, Thailand. So. So I'm looking. Well, not on the beach, ocean view, outside of my window. And that's the life I get to live. You get to live the life you have by design, I would imagine.
- [01:36]
C
Absolutely. Yeah. It's a lot of hard work to get to this point and excited to be here.
- [01:42]
B
And how did you decide to make this change in your life? Were you. Did you come from a conventional background? Because it sounds like you've designed this. You're living where you want, I guess you get to work virtually.
- [01:56]
C
Yeah, I. I think for. For myself. You know, this was kind of the dream to be out in the Pacific Northwest since just before my wife and I got married. We've been married for 17 years now.
- [02:10]
B
Congratulations.
- [02:12]
C
Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, we. We had this vision of being in the Pacific Northwest, and we made some stops along the way. We met each other in D.C. in school, and then after we finished school, we. We moved to Texas to go be close to my family. We knew we were going to have kids and free babysitting sounded great and it was kind of our stop along the way. And so we had a long. A long time there. While we were there, started my first business, you know, sold that, launched the second business through some other ones. And Covid kind of was the blessing for us in that we figured out, you know, we don't need to be in the office to be doing what we're doing outside of a couple businesses that I had that necessitated a physical location. But I didn't have to be there for the day to day of those. And so making the move up here in 2022 has just been a game changer for us. And having the, the space and the solitude. There is not a bad season here, even when it's cold and raining. We actually do live in a real rainforest and so it is quite rainy for eight months out of the year and it's still lovely, man. We, we absolutely adore it.
- [03:28]
B
Well, you don't get dry skin that way. I, I'm seeing the, the wood paneling behind you. So this is a, a lifestyle design. I mean, we'll dump into the business, but I think what's important when discussing a business and a path in one's life is your environment as well. I choose to live on the beach, which resonates with me. Mountain living or out in the forest or how would you describe your environment? I see the, the pipe going up. Is that a heating pipe that's right behind you?
- [03:59]
C
Yeah, this is a wood burning stove right next to me. Most the year it's running. Yeah, yeah, it's terrible. It's a good environment.
- [04:06]
B
Yeah, just terrible. I mean, beautiful wood paneling behind you. That's an ideal environment. And how much land do you sit on?
- [04:15]
C
Yes, we're just on an acre, but we are also only about a mile from a 10 million acre national forest. So the, the woods are my, are our playgrounds and it's pretty pristine.
- [04:30]
B
And so what does your day look like? I like to ask people that on the show. What time do you get up? Is it out of choice or is it okay you got to handle clients?
- [04:44]
C
Yeah. So I'm the CEO of a global agency called Finch and you can find us@finch.com and so we have teams in Europe, we have teams in the APAC region actually, so Australia in the Philippines, and then we have a team based in the US as well. So a lot of times my day will start somewhere between 6 and 7 in the morning with zoom calls with our European team and then it'll end somewhere between six and seven at night with the APAC team. Depending on the day. You know, I typically start my day with some personal time, whether that's just sitting and enjoying a cup of coffee and looking out over the river that's in our backyard or going for a walk like I did this morning, spending time in our infrared sauna or getting a workout in. I always make sure that that first part of my day is really centered around me and sometimes that means I start my, my day quite early. As it is. So yeah, it just kind of depends on what I have going on that day. And then I really make it so that I orient that activity around helping me be the best that I can in work and as a husband and father.
- [05:56]
B
I find almost everyone that I have interviewed and I've. I think you're about episode 115 that I've interviewed. All of them, without exception, have a routine, have something set in place where they have a certain amount of self care, can include exercise in most cases. Most people have that and are early risers for the most part. Not everybody, but most people, I could say that seems to be the common denominator. I wake up at four every day.
- [06:31]
C
Wow.
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B
And that habit got set into place back from when I was young. And it's just a matter of I get a lot done. I run my interviews from five and through eight in the morning. So for three hours I bang, bang, bang. That's my slot, 15 interviews a week. And then I'm on to my day. But it starts with a walk in the morning after a shower. Yes, I'm clean because it's expected in Thailand. And a cup of coffee. You know, I do have one, one latte, that's my treat with monk fruit. And then I'll eat later. So I space it out and then I, I feel like I get energized by interviewing top people like yourself who are amazing authorities and I love it. That gets my mind right. Because who you associate with matters, what information you take in matters. Talk to me. What do you believe? Are you congruent with that way?
- [07:30]
C
Absolutely. I mean the thing is we, we often take too lightly the things that we put into our brains and into our bodies. And so I, it's one of those things where like what you put in, you will get out. And so often like I don't know what other people's experience is, but I can say what mine is for sure. It's easy to wake up. And the first thing that you do is check your email, scroll through your favorite social media platform, and instantly you're just elevating the cortisol, which is a natural chemical in our body that helps us wake up. In fact, it's designed for that. But that stress chemical doesn't need any further help. And so it's like, don't, don't do that. Wait. Take care of yourself. Have a good routine. That's going to be helpful to you if you do it for a week. Because I believe in testing everything. Right. Okay. All right. So I'm like, hey, test it. Just try it for a week. If you think that it sucks after one week, you can stop. There's no one that's going to hold your feet to the fire. Most people, what they find after just four or five days, they go, oh, my gosh, I have so much more energy. I've got more clarity of mind. Just because I shifted a small thing at the beginning of my day. And my thought on this, too, honestly, Mitch, is after I start, the minute that I start getting into work, I don't know what my day is really going to be like. I know what I've got planned, but I have no idea you. And I have no idea what's going to happen. And so I. I try and mandate what I do at the start of my day, and then I try and dictate what I do in the last 30 minutes of my day. And that's about it. The rest of the day is just fluid. I've got three kids, I've got a wife, I've got clients, I've got staff. Like, who knows what's going to happen in the in between? And so I really only try and control those. Those two sides.
- [09:25]
B
Well, that makes sense. You've got the buns, the. The front and the back, and what the meat in between is, what it is that. That may vary based on the day.
- [09:35]
C
Precisely. Yeah.
- [09:36]
B
Okay. And who do you help in your business? Let's hear about that. You said you sold a couple of businesses in your past. What were those, and how did it lead you to where you are now?
- [09:46]
C
Yeah, so I've sold nine businesses, actually, that I either started or purchased and then built up and then sold later. So the nucleus of my businesses have been marketing and advertising agencies, and I've owned some SaaS products as well. Owned a flight school with my brother based outside of Fort Worth, Texas. I've owned a private equity firm. So there's different things that I've dabbled in. The only two that I haven't sold is my current business, which is an ad agency. And we serve companies large and small. So some of the largest companies in the world that many of your listeners have heard of, like TaylorMade Golf Clubs, for example. Oh, sure, yeah. Or a number of professional sports teams that we represent, as well as some Fortune 500 companies. And then we also represent small firms that have, like, you know, a couple grand a month to spend towards digital advertising. And they're trying to figure out how they make this thing go, and so we help them as well. And it's really those, those business owners are marketing that are trying to get more bang for their buck out of every advertising dollar that they spend or SEO dollar that they spend. And that's really who we help.
- [11:09]
B
So you also get involved in SEO. Is that dead or is paid the way to go?
- [11:17]
C
So the way that we talk about it, and we mean this with the utmost sincerity, we're all small, the people that own the firm, we're all small business owners as well, right? So like we get the game. If you're going to spend money, you have to see return. So if you need leads or you need sales, right now, paid ads are the way to go. Of course. I mean, pure and simple. It just is. SEO is like investing in your 401k. This is not our data. These, these are industry leaders. Basically what you can see is after one one year of investing in SEO, you're going to make a one to one return on investment. So if you put 20 grand in for the year, you're going to get 20 grand out of SEO more than likely. It's really in year three that you get a 10 or 20x return on your money from SEO work. And so you have to take a different approach to it. It's why when we talk about it with clients, we're really intense. Like, hey, listen, this is kind of like buying a pet, right? Like, are you willing to hold on to this puppy for three years and keep going? If you, if you say no, that means you probably shouldn't do this and we should just do ads and we're good either way. I don't care, I just want to help you. And so is a blended approach optimal? Oh, totally, yeah. I mean, like, it's really interesting. What we do over time is that clients see increasingly better returns as we do both. And so their SEO increases really nicely alongside their paid advertising needs. And they were able to like suss out, hey, this was a organic click versus a paid click. And what is that? What does that look like for you as a company?
- [13:03]
B
You know, it's interesting you mentioned that because a lot of I watched an interview yesterday, a podcast interview of somebody that was embracing the organic component of YouTube. And yeah, he took his coaching business from 30,000amonth in sales of his product that he was selling how to make money with KDP Kindle Direct Publishing to over half a million bucks a month now, all raising the subscriber base of his YouTube channel and without ads. So he, I guess you just pay, you pay your dues long enough are you a YouTube fan?
- [13:45]
C
Yeah, huge YouTube fan. So we actually have a, an entire media company that we started as an element of our advertising agency, and it's called Vox and Coin. And so we release three episodes a week. We're not as prolific as you, Mitch, but we release three episodes a week that have different formats. And in that production space, you know, we're ranking high for keywords. We've also found some fun hacks, Mitch, that have to share with you in the audience. One of the places that YouTube, one of the things that YouTube doesn't care about is they don't care where in the world the clicks come from or the views come from would be a better way to put it. So if you get a view from somewhere that isn't in your target demographic, let's say that you're only targeting the U.S. you're only targeting Canada. Right. If you get a click from Cambodia, your neck near, near your neck of the woods, Mitch, YouTube doesn't care. They don't weight it differently. They weight it the same. And the more views that you get, it actually increases your score in their internal SEO system. And so one of my favorite tactics for this is to go onto Twitter and to run Twitter ads to specific videos. For a time, you can say, hey, I don't want to be charged more than a penny per click. You will still get clicks, and then you will actually get views that way. And so it's a great way to have some of your most prominent content rank higher and allow other people to find you.
- [15:22]
B
Let me, I want to unpack that, because that's a, I, I, I was in the SEO business for a number of years with the staff, over a hundred in the Philippines. But then I, I went crazy. It wasn't, I've been active for almost eight years now.
- [15:37]
C
Congratulations.
- [15:38]
B
Thank you. Yeah, I just don't want, I don't want the headaches. And, you know, I called in sick and I, I've heard all the stories and I had to buy hair transplants after I pulled it all out. Yeah, true story. But the, these hacks, will that get you flagged? Meaning if you have somebody, if you have a team in India just clicking, then you have a team in the Philippines just clicking on these videos. You know, is this attempted workaround, is that considered black hat for the people, or will they be able to. Because Google's got some pretty smart people.
- [16:17]
C
So that would be, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about running ads directly to, to countries and Getting people to start viewing that content in those countries, actually consuming it. It's a white hat way to do it. It's just an elegant hack for the moment. I'm sure that this has an expiration date, by the way. I'm sure that's why I was around forever.
- [16:39]
B
So buy Twitter ads or X ads and drive it to and have specific.
- [16:48]
C
YouTube video that you're really wanting to promote. Yeah, that has good SEO and it'll actually increase the SEO ranking because YouTube looks at it and they go, oh, there are these keywords. Remember they're doing data mining on all of our videos. Right. There's transcription for all of your videos. It's looking at keywords. The title really matters. The, the subtext of that title as well. Your little description, really, really important. And so those things that come up elevates you in SEO. Well, then what does that do? Over time, you start to get organic traffic from internal SEO on YouTube. And so it's a system that feeds itself. Again, I don't think this will be around forever, but for right now, it's an effective tool. And by the way, I'm saying this because we do it. Like nothing that I share on any podcast is like something I'm like, you should go do this. And we're not actively using it. We're actively doing it.
- [17:44]
B
All right, well, let me ask this, because now we're going down a, a former wheelhouse, but it is, it's totally relevant. Can we employ that same tactic and drive to Spotify? So I have a podcast and I'm always looking for ranking improvements and can I then buy ads on Twitter and say, hey, you want to see this episode with Dave Valentine? Would that same strategy work?
- [18:12]
C
It's my understanding that at the moment Spotify has a more sophisticated SEO algorithm and that it wouldn't work the same way.
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B
So it works for YouTube currently.
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C
So Spotify is going to rank it based off the country that is viewing Spotify. So if I ran ads and I get a lot of clicks from Pakistan, for example, this episode may rank really high in Pakistan for, you know, different items that are keywords. But it wouldn't necessarily rank as high in the U.S. in Canada, in Bulgaria. Right. Like, it just wouldn't rank as high in some of these other countries. So a little bit different algorithm and SEO optimization on that side.
- [18:58]
B
So is YouTube the only one that doesn't care where the hooks from come from? Would it work on Facebook or. No, then that, that would break up. They're, they're, they're very good at their data mining.
- [19:10]
C
Yeah. It's my understanding that at the moment that is the only one that's working in this fashion, which is why it's a fun little hack. Again, I'm sure it'll be closed, maybe closed after this episode airs.
- [19:24]
B
So many people will be doing it. Hey, what's this?
- [19:26]
C
Tech, right? Exactly. But I think right now YouTube really sees itself as a growing arm of Google's empire. And one of the ways that Google grew as big as they did was not just because they created a monopoly for search. It's that they created a monopoly around a lot of things. And some of the reasons why they're struggling financially is because they put tight constraints on it. In example, Gmail, one of the things that they really did was they really made an effort to cut down people using spam or spam like tactics or cold email tactics for. Through Gmail. And so as a result, what's happened is a lot of people have left Gmail. They were making hundreds of millions of dollars a year of people buying Google workspaces and then sending cold email from it. And so their goal was to make it a better user experience for people that had a free Gmail account. What they unintendedly did was they moved people off Gmail that were actually paying to use it onto private servers and other software to continue their efforts. And so, yeah, I think that there are some workarounds that are helpful. And right now it's really understanding what the platforms care about. And right now, everybody that is driving traffic to YouTube, Google's like, keep doing it. We want more people on YouTube. Keep going.
- [20:51]
B
I'm going to look into. I've never advertised on Twitter before or on X. I, I don't know much about it because I've never done it. I've used Facebook quite extensively. I've even had some YouTube ads. Fair results to mostly losses. You know, I had gone to a YouTube specialist. This guy was advertised. His moniker was YouTube ads will beat Facebook ads all, every single time. And I'll leave his name out of the equation. But it was absolutely incorrect. My best ROI has been a roas has been with Facebook ads for generally I've. I never tried LinkedIn ads. When I ran events in Japan it was Yahoo.
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C
Yeah, Yahoo is huge in Japan.
- [21:44]
B
Yeah, in, in that market it was, that was where I had my roas. It wasn't some of the others. So it's, it's geospecific in many cases. So let me. I'm going to put you on the spot because I know you can handle it and you're a smart guy.
- [21:59]
C
You've already proven that to me.
- [22:00]
B
I'm going to put you on the spot where I monetize my podcast because I do this because it's interesting and I get to rub elbows with high level people. But there's a monetization component. I cover experts and my backend based on their referrals or in some cases themselves is I'm a publicist for authors. That's my core. That's how I make my money. I'm also a TV show host on NBC Channel 3. I just got back from Vegas. I go and shoot a bunch of episodes. Then I come back to Thailand where I'm. And I do a lot of virtual interviews now. But I get people on four networks in Las Vegas. Only work in the Las Vegas market because that's where I'm known. And I know all the producers of abc, NBC, CBS and the cw. Those are the four networks I work with. And I'm also a show host on NBC Channel 3. And I make my money by guaranteeing publicity for those potential guests and their authors. My dilemma right now I'm presenting you the problem and I'm waiting for your prescription, Dave. And I know you can handle it. Is anybody under 30 who's an author and that isn't the biggest market. Most people are 45 to 70 would be my. Who are successful and then they're, they're memorializing their lives essentially, is what it is. But anybody young TV has no value to them and, and the television awareness is shrinking. More people are interested in podcasting in YouTube. How would I market to that demographic, in your opinion? If I were to hire your company and say help me, I want to sell a valuable service. I'm different than any other publicist in the world because I guarantee exposure versus pay me monthly a retainer and I'll get you out and maybe get you interviewed. I guarantee. I sell packages of guaranteed interviews.
- [24:09]
C
I love that. I love that. Okay, so I, I actually know a lot about your space.
- [24:15]
B
Oh, well, there you go.
- [24:17]
C
The place that we are finding tremendous wins for high end services like yourself.
- [24:27]
B
10 to $15,000 are my packages.
- [24:31]
C
That's great. Perfect. This is gonna be work perfect for you. We are Getting leads on TikTok ads for under 20 bucks a lead today, right now. I mean, just.
- [24:45]
B
Do I have to dance? Dude, you don't want to see me dance. I'm a white guy.
- [24:48]
C
No, no, no, no, no. And we, we, we leverage People that are actually on our staff, executives and business owners that are on our staff that are part of the whole. And they, they are absolutely crushing it for us. And it's a lot of just like talking head, when I call talking head videos, just like, hey, do you want to rank here? Do you want to do this? Do you want to have this? And we're getting leads for about 20 bucks, a little bit under, I think as of today. Right now it's like $17.26 a lead. And so it's totally scalable. They're not, some of them are huge, by the way, like just throwing it out. Like we've gotten some leads from TikTok that have generated in the first contract over a quarter of a million dollars. Yeah, exactly. Like huge corporations are finding. I know, it's great. That's, that's. By the way, Mitch, that's, that's what I said. Like, and I think I thought it.
- [25:57]
B
Was dancing young girls showing their.
- [26:01]
C
No, I mean there is certainly a side of TikTok that has that going on. The, the main value that TikTok has is that their algorithm is really intense. What I mean by that is, whereas in Facebook and Instagram as just like a juxtaposition, if I am a part of a group or I have clicked on an ad for a specific product in the past several weeks, I will get lots of ads for that product, period. So like, if I click on an ad for Same with Facebook though, huh?
- [26:44]
B
Same with Facebook.
- [26:46]
C
Yeah. Well, that's, that's what, that's, that's what I'm saying. Facebook and Instagram are going to do that. The difference with TikTok is they're gonna, they're gonna keep a better database about my likes and about what I'm into. So they know that I'm in. Absolutely. And it's wild. So if I engage with business or marketing content, I see a lot of that. But it also knows, for instance, that I'm a Manchester City fan, have been for two decades now. And so they look at that and they show me content for Manchester City. Not all the time, but probably every 12 videos. And so there's this pretty tight loop of like, here are the things that Dave's into is really eclectic, by the way. And then they show me that content. I happen to be in a middle aged white guy, so I don't get any of the dancing young girls in my TikTok feed because that doesn't interest me. Right. And so it's different for different users. You can Target people that are in a business and we are having massive success with it.
- [27:52]
B
Wow. TikTok. So I love the idea about YouTube. All right, let me take it one step further because this varies based on platform as well. I abore having to get on one on one sales calls to convince people where they say, oh, I have to think about it.
- [28:13]
C
Do do.
- [28:14]
B
It drives me crazy because I'm, I've been a stage salesman selling one too many for years and they either run to the back of the room or they don't. That was pre pandemic. To buy a product or service that I was offering or training. This drives me absolutely crazy. I would like to think at my mature age I don't have to go through that. There's so much bloody value in what I do. I want them to sign up and more apply and see if it's a privilege to get on than it is me. Begging for dollars, begging for their money. And most people of my age group get it and can't wait to get on television. Would you drive through TikTok? Would you drive them to a VSL? Would you drive them to a mini webinar that they have to watch before they set an appointment where the money is disclosed or do, or is it because of the price point and because I know that you understand the strategy at all this. Is it a necessary step to have to get people over the line today?
- [29:18]
C
I think it depends. So, so I think it, one of the things I'm a firm believer in, Mitch, is lean into the things that you're really good at. And so if you're saying I'm a stage guy, right? I, I, I do stages. I get people to say, yeah, that's me. I want in, Mitch. Like I, I hear the price point doesn't scare me at all. Let's go. If that's where you're best. I would drive people to a group conversation. If you're doing two, you know, too large. I don't, I don't want to say webinars. Okay. But for lack of a better term, webinars, right. I don't want to say webinars because people, it's kind of like an ebook. Like webinars and ebooks have just become like this thing where, like, I don't want that. There's not a whole lot of value. Great. Call my digital conference. Hey, we're hosting a digital conference on Tuesday. Love to have you there. It's a free ticket. However, you know, here's what we're going to be talking about. Or maybe it's a ticket that they actually you charge for, Mitch. You say it's five bucks. You come, I'm going to give you incredible value. And by the way, at the end, I'm going to present about my services, because my services are going to help you do the things that you don't want to go do. Because let's be honest, Mitch, anybody can run. I do digital advertising and SEO. There are plenty of free YouTube videos. There are plenty of free tutorials. There's lots of cheap E courses. Anybody can learn how to do it. So why would they pay me? Well, they pay me because I've been in this for 20 years. I have over a billion dollars of attributable revenue to my marketing and advertising tactics. You're the real deal. Yeah, well, it's the same as you, Mitch. And so it's like one of those things where it goes, I would pay you because you've done this before. You're giving me a shortcut. You're helping me figure something out instead of. And this is why I think it's easy for you to sell to people that are a little bit older is just because they go, I know what I don't know. And I don't need to go figure it out. Mitch already has it figured out. I'm happy to pay you 15 grand. Mitch, let's go.
- [31:25]
B
And they understand the value of TV and the prestige associated with that, versus a podcast, which, hey, I'm a podcast host. But it still doesn't have the same cred. Unless you're Joe Rogan.
- [31:39]
C
Correct. Right. Like, and it's one of those things where it's like, hey, I. I get the TV thing. I'm not 45. I understand how powerful that is. It gives you immediate credibility in a way that other channels don't. It still has a amazing caching. And there's a felt value being in a major metro area, Vegas, and having people watch your show, they're tuning in, and it's like, man, you may get 50 to 100,000 people to know who you're a. Who you are, what your book is about. That's tremendous. Are you kidding me? And so I get the value immediately. And I. I'm surprised that more people don't. But I. At the same time, I think that a lot of that is just educationally based. And it's one of those things where it's like, hey, how much is a cost per click or cost per impression to get people on. On Facebook or Instagram to know who you are versus like this is going to be what, a three to seven minute interview that's going to air on, on linear tv. People are going to get to know you. That's tremendous. Like that, that's worth far more than simply, oh, I saw three seconds of your, your video and we counted that as an impression. No one cares. So it's a totally different format.
- [32:56]
B
Yeah. And I interview people for 28 and a half minutes because I have legal bumpers in the front and the back. Yeah. The interviews that are on live television through the channels are broadcast live. Like you would see it in parking, you know, in the waiting rooms of auto service. You see it in the casinos, you'll see it in hotel rooms, you'll see it throughout, on the big screens throughout the casinos because they're broadcasting that in the restaurants. Those are about four minute interviews. I'm not the host for those. Those are based on the different. I host my own show, but it's, I'm a contract host with NBC, so these are specific to my guests.
- [33:39]
C
Got it.
- [33:39]
B
And that's more valuable. Will they sell a thousand books because of that? Probably not. But what they will do is raise their credibility. They would post it everywhere and that of course would go into their shorts. Yes.
- [33:53]
C
Yeah. And it's, it's tremendous. You know, one of the things that we, that you and I know, Mitch, because we've been doing this for a while is like that social credibility is unreal. And so how many people, I mean like this is my favorite thing to do if I was in your shoes, is like how many people do you know that have been on TV and have been interviewed?
- [34:13]
B
Not many, because.
- [34:14]
C
Not many. So it's still a huge deal. And that's like, that's the rarity, the scarcity of it. That's why it's valuable. And if you were like, Well, I want 100 million eyes on it, great, you can keep trying for years and years and years to go viral. Good luck.
- [34:35]
B
Well, in the other, you know, I find that people will buy more what they want versus what is good for them. And there was a lady that I interviewed earlier who's a professor at a well known university in California and she marketing professor, she was over the moon, excited because she came off being a guest speaker on a TEDx in Folsom, California. Folsom, which is a known for a prison near Sacramento. Yeah, that's what you think of Folsom because Johnny Cash had us had a song about it.
- [35:11]
C
Correct?
- [35:12]
B
Yeah. She was over the moon because of the cachet of being on TEDx. This lady is a professor, has written three books. She was an outstanding guest like you, and she got the chicken award, as you do too, with all these gems you've draw, you know, you've shared. And her big takeaway was she loved being on TedX, that she thought she'd arrived. And to me, I've done one TedX and it was great. It was fine experience, but it wasn't the, it wasn't even close to the credibility of being on tv, in my opinion.
- [35:47]
C
Right.
- [35:48]
B
Because I'm a professional speaker, one who's been paid over the years very, very well for sharing messages to large audiences. To me, TEDx is a step above Toastmasters is. It's not great.
- [36:04]
C
Yeah, I agree completely. And I, I have also, hilariously, I also have given a TEDx. Oh, you have? It was. Yeah. And it was, it was a, it was a great experience. I'm happy that I did it. I'm happy that my message got out. And guess what? It is not nearly as impactful as I wish it would have been. It was a great, again, great experience. Wouldn't trade it. And also, like, good grief, man, if you think that that's the pinnacle of your experience or that was way very much worth the investment, again, it's one of those things, it's fun for me to point to and be like, hey, I'm a TEDx speaker. That's true. That's real. And also it's giving me some credibility. And it's not the end all, be all. And this, this game, especially the game that you're playing, Mitch, it's, it's never, you're never done, right? Like, you're never done staying top of mind for people. You're never done creating more credibility unless you're dead. And so it's like, yeah, I want to keep investing in my reputation and my credibility and staying top of mind for people and reminding people that I'm here. It's why we do podcasts, why we do advertising, it's why we spend money in pr. Why For. For this very reason. So, yeah, that, that's, that's interesting me because especially as a, a small business owner, I'm just like, hey, I appreciate that. That was cool. And also, I want to do what's going to give me roi.
- [37:34]
B
Well, all right, so let me circle back to my original question. We went down a great rabbit hole, but I want to go back to that. So when with my product, I don't want to sit there and Try to convince people to go over the line. Would a webinar or putting them through this. I wrote the term down. It was great. You called it a digital conference. Is that the way to go is to have it live or is it evergreen?
- [38:01]
C
I love. So I heard you and, and what I heard from you was, man, I'm great. I'm great in the room.
- [38:11]
B
Yes.
- [38:12]
C
And so I think that your presence and your ability and I feel this just talking with you, your ability to sell people on it and to respond in real time and to engage with a group of people is really dynamic. And so it may take more from you. I wonder if. And again, I love to test everything. I wonder what it would be like if you test an evergreen webinar or, you know, digital conference versus one that is live. Is your conversion rate more meaningful for the live versus the Evergreen? I know that it's going to be higher, by the way, we've run this for other clients. I've done this for myself. I know that it's going to be higher in the live, but it is a question of is it worth it? Is, is that ROI worth it? And if it's not great, then just go back to the evergreen one and you have something that's easy and people just come through and it's fun in that way. But if the ROI is so much better for you to spend an hour a week in, in a call like that, great, let's do that.
- [39:21]
B
All right, let me ask the. The other platform. I've run LinkedIn Live events and I had reasonable success. The issue with show up rates was very low compared to, let's say, outside methods to get people to a webinar or a digital conference. And have you worked in LinkedIn ads because you're a paid ad specialist and has that worked only good for big brands?
- [39:51]
C
LinkedIn ads are challenging for a number of reasons. One reason is they have a much smaller pool of people. Right. And so one of the things that's great about that is you can target specific job titles. The challenge for you and I whenever you're doing any sort of B2B advertising or outreach is that people get busy, meetings pop up in their calendar. I know for me, I don't know if this is true for you, Mitch, but for me, I get phone calls. I mean, I've gotten three phone calls and I've gotten, I have six people that have texted me since we started this interview, right. And so like, those are waiting. I'm sure that I have some G chats waiting. From staff. And so I'm constantly getting pinged. I have made it a point, but I'm a unique individual in this regard. I've made a point that I'm gonna be fully present when I'm with people. Like that is my game.
- [40:45]
B
And my phone is off as well. Yes.
- [40:47]
C
Right. Yeah. The only reason I know the text messages and the phone calls and stuff, because I have alerts on my desktop and I forgot to turn them off. But that's okay. But the, the thing that I find is that's not normative for most people. They feel better. This is even small business owners and some CEOs and leaders that I know, they love the constant ping and the dopamine rush. You and I don't. Right. And so they're like, oh, I got to go put out this fire. I'm going to leave and go do that instead of attend this webinar. That would actually help my business move forward. And so I think that there is going to be a challenge on LinkedIn just purely by cost. To put it in perspective, we ran a platform specific ad to generate leads on LinkedIn. Same offer, different medium. Our cost on LinkedIn was $550 per qualified lead on LinkedIn. We're getting a, you know, we're getting a lead for $17.26 on TikTok to get a qualified lead that is ready to buy. We're spending three times that. So basically one in three are really qualified from TikTok. So I'm still spending about $51 and 78 cents. So like it's just a much more cost effective path for us.
- [42:09]
B
So you would dump more into TikTok and then maybe wean them a little bit. But the LinkedIn is that expensive. Who buys LinkedIn ads then? Doesn't ROI?
- [42:21]
C
The way that we found that LinkedIn ads worked really well is for top of mind brand impressions and brand awareness. So like we stopped running LinkedIn ads. I'm just telling you like we stopped running LinkedIn again, I only like to tell people what we're doing. We stopped running LinkedIn ads for ourselves in a way that was driving leads or clicks even. We're just trying to build brand awareness of who we are and what we're up to. And that's the name of the game in our space. And it is the name of the game for companies that are over 5 billion a year in revenue, which we are one of those. And so we do spend a low amount of dollars every single month just maintaining our presence there. But I don't think it's a great lead spot anymore.
- [43:05]
B
Okay. So for direct marketing, it doesn't make sense. For brand marketing, it does. Okay. Wow. Well, how do people get in touch with you, Dave, to utilize your services?
- [43:19]
C
Yeah, you can reach out to me directly, Dave. Valentine. Finch.com. valentine just spilled. Spelled just like the day. And then you can also find me on LinkedIn as well. I'm pretty active there, posting a couple times a day. Wow. The best platform to find me. Yeah, so that's. That's kind of where I like to hang and make sure that people are kind of getting the content that they're looking for. So, yeah, if you want to reach out and find me, that's the best way to do it is just via email.
- [43:47]
B
So twice a day on LinkedIn, what are you posting? I can't let you go.
- [43:55]
C
Oh, that's great. No, no, I'm posting. I'm posting stories. I'm posting case studies of clients. Like, what did we do? Right? So one of the things that, that I also posted near the beginning of the year is I talked about, hey, we spent on behalf of clients. We spent $36 million in 2024. Let me tell you the seven things that we learned from that. And so giving people big data, because, like, especially small businesses, right? They're like, hey, I spend on the high end. They're like, maybe I'm spending 10k a month on ads, maybe I'm spending 2000amonth, maybe spending 200amonth, whatever that is, right? They're like, trying to figure it out. And so what I've found is like, giving those big ideas to people with lots of data is really impactful. So I'm always trying to help people. I'm not trying to sell people on LinkedIn. Even when I do sales calls, I'm like, which I don't do many anymore, but when I do those, I'm like, hey, I'm just trying to help you. And maybe the best way for me to help you is to give you to somebody else. And so that's why 55% of our sales calls. And I've trained the sales team to do the same. 55% of our sales calls, we dequeue them, and then we give them free consulting. And the idea behind that, Mitch, is like, man, we just want to give helpful knowledge out into the space. And we even do a thing for the 45% that are qualified. We say, hey, listen, are you shopping around for other service providers? And they go, yeah. And so then we Tell them, well, listen, here are the two other service providers that we'd recommend if you're not going to get with us. And so we send other competitors business because we're like, look, if you think that they have a better pitch, if you think that they have a better service, we want you to go with them. I don't want you. I don't want anyone to feel like they didn't get a fair shake at making a decision because it's hard to trust somebody with your money. So, yeah, I mean, that's, that's, that's our general approach.
- [45:53]
B
Wow, that's. And then they end up coming back because you didn't ask them for the business.
- [45:59]
C
In some cases, it's really interesting. So I've been running the same sales approach for the past seven years. We probably lose 10 to 15% of qualified clients to other competitors in that space. What's really fun, Mitch, is that those other competitors, a, take note, and they really appreciate it, and then B, we get those clients back a lot. And they'll say things like, oh, I made a mistake. I went with this other firm. It just wasn't what I expected. And I go, oh, tell me what you what didn't meet your expectations? And sometimes that leads to us dqing them, by the way, because they have unrealistic expectations for the outcome. And I'm just like, look, we can't hit that. If you find somebody that can tell me who they are, I want to go buy them out. And they, like laugh and they get it. And I go, yeah, no, seriously, because I don't know people that can give you a 50 to 1 return on your ad spend on a consistent basis that aren't using some hack that's going to die out in the next 60 days. But if you find them, I want to buy them, so let me know. And so they kind of get that and they laugh. They go, okay, well, what is a reasonable expectation? Oh, that's a great question. You know, and so then we're able to have a substantive conversation at that point. But yeah, I mean, it leaves the door open. And interestingly enough, Mitch, because I took that approach with other firms, it actually allowed me to sell previous SaaS companies and previous marketing agencies that I've owned to those competitors that I used to say, hey, listen, if you're not gonna go with us, go with them. And so it is a move that builds rapport. It's also a move that generates opportunities in the future.
- [47:48]
B
Wow, I love it. That is unique. Dave. You've been a great guest. Thank you so much for your time. Dave.valentine.com that's where they'll find. Or that's your direct email, correct?
- [48:02]
C
That. That. That's me. Yeah. It goes directly to my desktop and.
- [48:06]
B
My phone and I'm going to add you on LinkedIn because I want to learn what you're sharing for two posts a day. That's fantastic. Thank you so much and we'll certainly have you back as a guest once again and have a great day.
- [48:22]
A
Thanks for tuning in to the Amazing Authorities podcast. If today's episode inspired you, take a moment to subscribe, rate and leave a review. It helps more experts like you rise to the top for behind the scenes access and free resources to boost your authority. Head to MitchCarson.com until next time, stay Amazing.