#275: The Modern Data...Job Search with Albert Bellamy

Summary

The Analytics Power Hour: Episode #275 – The Modern Data Job Search with Albert Bellamy

Release Date: July 8, 2025

Hosts: Michael Helbling, Moe Kiss, Tim Wilson, Val Kroll, and Julie Hoyer
Guest: Albert Bellamy

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Introduction

In Episode #275 of The Analytics Power Hour, hosts Michael Helbling, Tim Wilson, and co-host emeritus Jim Cain welcome Albert Bellamy, a seasoned analytics professional and career coach. Formerly a member of the United States Marine Corps, Albert transitioned into the analytics field and now works at Alteryx while running his own coaching company, Major Data. The episode delves into the evolving landscape of job searches within the data and analytics sector, offering listeners valuable insights and actionable strategies.

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The Changing Landscape of Job Searches in Analytics

Michael Helbling opens the discussion by addressing the shifting dynamics of job searches in the analytics field. He observes that simply listing "analytics" on a LinkedIn profile no longer guarantees a steady influx of recruiter inquiries. Instead, the job search has become more competitive and complex, with challenges like ghosting becoming commonplace.

Michael Helbling [00:14]: "All too often people you'd least expect it are showing up with that green open to work badge on their LinkedIn profile. And even if you have a job, maybe you're looking for something else. And it just seems like every place you apply just ghosts you."

This sets the stage for a deeper exploration of effective job search strategies tailored to the modern digital landscape.

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Albert Bellamy's Journey and Expertise

Albert Bellamy shares his personal journey from a 24-year career in the Marine Corps to the analytics industry. He highlights the transition period marked by limited time due to leadership responsibilities during the COVID-19 pandemic and how he leveraged LinkedIn to network effectively despite these constraints.

Albert Bellamy [02:21]: "I found that was there for me and it was there for me in an analytic space working for contractors... I ended up getting my first job, which was in marketing analytics, which is why I started listening to marketing analytics podcasts."

Albert's experience underscores the importance of strategic networking and the potential of platforms like LinkedIn in facilitating career transitions.

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Networking Strategies on LinkedIn

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on leveraging LinkedIn for networking and job searches. Tim Wilson uses an engaging analogy to emphasize the importance of maintaining consistent interactions on the platform.

Tim Wilson [08:48]: "LinkedIn is an attempt to approximate in real life, human interaction. Maybe not with a spouse, but it's just like anybody that you don't talk to for a year..."

He likens neglecting LinkedIn to ignoring a relationship, stressing that consistent engagement is crucial for maintaining meaningful connections that can aid in job searches.

Personalized Connection Requests

The hosts advocate for personalized connection requests over generic ones. Tim highlights the value of sending tailored messages that reflect genuine interest in the other person's profile or work.

Tim Wilson [21:43]: "If you make it about the other person and you say, I'm interested in connecting with you because something about you that is not, you know, it's advantageous to me..."

This approach increases the likelihood of meaningful interactions and enhances the potential for referrals.

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Content Creation and Presence

Julie Hoyer brings attention to the disparity in content creation across social platforms, noting that LinkedIn remains relatively content-poor compared to platforms like Instagram or TikTok. However, she emphasizes the hidden value in LinkedIn's content for professional growth.

Julie Hoyer [12:30]: "It's just like the David Goggins, like, it's so easy to be great. It's, it's really not that hard to be a good content creator on LinkedIn..."

The hosts discuss the benefits of creating genuine, valuable content that resonates with their professional network, arguing that this builds credibility and visibility among potential employers and peers.

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Resume Building in the Modern Era

Transitioning to resumes, the hosts dissect outdated practices and advocate for modern, streamlined approaches. Tim Wilson provides several key recommendations:

1. Avoid Including Headshots: Graphics can disrupt machine readability and introduce unconscious bias.

   Tim Wilson [42:57]: "Never ever. Hell no. Why? Because scanners can get thrown off and it can lead to bias."

2. Exclude Dates on Education: Removing dates helps prevent age discrimination and keeps the focus on qualifications.

   Tim Wilson [43:00]: "Same thing with your picture. Like, don't give them a reason to say, oh, I don't like his face or her teeth or, you know, whatever."

3. Eliminate Objective Statements: Objective statements shift the focus to the candidate rather than the value they bring to the employer.

   Tim Wilson [45:09]: "An objective statement makes the resume about you. Job seeking is sales—you’re selling yourself as the talent."

4. Maintain Conciseness: Resumes should ideally be one page for those with less than 10 years of experience and not exceed two pages for more seasoned professionals.

   Tim Wilson [49:18]: "I think confused mind always says no. If you put things on your resume that generate more questions..."

5. Tailor Resumes for Specific Jobs: Customizing resumes to align with job descriptions increases the chances of standing out to recruiters.

   Tim Wilson [35:39]: "If you want to get a job that is really well suited for you and your skill set, then I would tailor resumes."

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Application Strategies

The hosts caution against high-volume, blind applications through platforms like LinkedIn, where a single job posting can attract hundreds of applicants, many of whom may not be qualified.

Tim Wilson [28:49]: "If you see a thousand applications for a job on LinkedIn, assume that at least half of them are wildly unqualified."

Instead, they recommend a more targeted approach—identifying and connecting with individuals within organizations to secure referrals or internal endorsements, which significantly boost the likelihood of landing interviews.

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Interviewing and the Role of Resumes

Albert Bellamy elaborates on how the resume serves as an initial gateway, akin to crossing a low log in a Marine Corps obstacle course. He explains that while a well-crafted resume is essential, it merely gets candidates into the interview process, where they must then demonstrate their suitability for the role.

Albert Bellamy [56:53]: "I think there's a ghost that messes with the titles, but we figured that."

This metaphor emphasizes that the real challenge lies beyond the resume—in the interview—where candidates must effectively showcase their skills and fit for the position.

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Final Tips and Last Calls

As the episode wraps up, each host shares their "Last Call," highlighting resources and personal interests that provide additional value to listeners.

• Tim Wilson recommends "Reverse the Search" by Madeline Mann, praising it as a comprehensive guide for career search strategies.

  Tim Wilson [60:20]: "Reverse the Search. Madeleine Mann, if you're in the career space, she's a must follow."

• Julie Hoyer shares her involvement in a Strava Measure club, encouraging listeners interested in casual running communities to join.

  Julie Hoyer [64:12]: "I created a Strava Measure club. If you're a Strava user in any sport, it's set up for all sports."

• Michael Helbling directs listeners to Albert's LinkedIn and his website, MajorData.com, for additional resources and coaching services.

  Michael Helbling [67:23]: "Albert... people could find you there as well. Definitely worth checking out."

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Conclusion

Episode #275 of The Analytics Power Hour provides a comprehensive exploration of modern job search strategies within the data and analytics field. Through insightful discussions with Albert Bellamy, listeners gain valuable perspectives on effective networking, resume optimization, and strategic application processes. The episode underscores the importance of adaptability and strategic planning in navigating the competitive landscape of analytics careers.

Listeners are encouraged to implement the discussed strategies, engage with the provided resources, and maintain a proactive approach to their professional growth.

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Notable Quotes:

• Michael Helbling [00:14]: "All too often people you'd least expect it are showing up with that green open to work badge on their LinkedIn profile."

• Tim Wilson [08:48]: "LinkedIn is an attempt to approximate in real life, human interaction."

• Tim Wilson [21:43]: "If you make it about the other person... you've got skin in the game."

• Tim Wilson [35:39]: "If you want to get a job that is really well suited for you and your skill set, then I would tailor resumes."

• Julie Hoyer [12:30]: "It's so easy to be great. It's really not that hard to be a good content creator on LinkedIn."

• Tim Wilson [49:18]: "I think confused mind always says no."

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Resources Mentioned:

• Book: Reverse the Search by Madeline Mann
• Website: MajorData.com
• Podcast Mention: Freakonomics Podcast, Episode #633 – "The Most Powerful People You've Never Heard Of"

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Connect with the Hosts and Guest:

• Michael Helbling, Tim Wilson, Julie Hoyer: LinkedIn Group
• Albert Bellamy: LinkedIn Profile | MajorData.com
• Feedback and Questions: Email [e-mail] | Join the Measure Chat Slack Group

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Tune In:

Stay updated with the latest episodes of The Analytics Power Hour for more insights, discussions, and expert advice on navigating the world of data analytics.

Transcript

[Tim Wilson]

Foreign. Welcome to the Analytics Power Hour. Analytics topics covered conversationally and sometimes with explicit language. Hey, everybody, welcome.

[Michael Helbling]

It's the Analytics Power Hour. This is episode 275. You know, a long time ago, it seemed like all you had to do was put analytics somewhere in your LinkedIn page and that that would kind of ensure a steady stream of recruiters emailing you about job openings. I don't think that's been true for quite some time now. And you know, honestly, today, all too often people you'd least expect it are showing up with that green open to work badge on their LinkedIn profile. And even if you have a job, maybe you're looking for something else. And it just seems like every place you apply just ghosts you. I mean, the truth is, the job search in the data and analytics field, it's changed. And, you know, while a lot of the data is anecdotal, the trends certainly feel real. And so how do you do a job search the right way? Today, I think we should talk about it. Let me introduce my co host, Tim Wilson. How's it going?

[Julie Hoyer]

It's going great. Ready to learn all the ins and outs of this particular topic? Not for me personally. Let's see.

[Michael Helbling]

Our job search skills are very antiquated, I would imagine you and me, just because of how old and unemployable we are. Speaking of employable, Julie Hoyer.

[Tim Wilson]

Hey.

[Albert Bellamy]

Hey.

[Tim Wilson]

You're.

[Albert Bellamy]

Can't wait.

[Michael Helbling]

You're the next generation. And so I'm glad you're here.

[Albert Bellamy]

Me too.

[Michael Helbling]

And I'm Michael Helbling. And we wanted to have a guest, someone who kind of makes it their business to understand the ins and outs of the modern job search. Albert Bellamy is the Marine who smiles at spreadsheets. After a distinguished career in the United States Marine Corps, he transitioned into analytics, where he's held roles with analytics and currently works at Alteryx. He also coaches people through their career growth and transitions with his company, Major Data. And today he is our guest. Welcome to the show, Albert.

[Tim Wilson]

Thank you very much. Awesome to be here. This has been a bucket list thing for me for a while.

[Julie Hoyer]

Well, you should have reached out. Why did you wait for us to reach out to you?

[Tim Wilson]

You know, I didn't want to. It's a. You want to play hard to get.

[Michael Helbling]

I like your style. I like your style. But let's. Let's just start with you need a bigger bucket.

[Julie Hoyer]

And I can say this was this.

[Tim Wilson]

This was the entirety of the list. It's one on there. Yeah.

[Julie Hoyer]

Or it is a really big Bucket. Maybe that's what it is, right?

[Albert Bellamy]

It's a bucket list.

[Michael Helbling]

It's a catch all. No, it's great to have you. And honestly, you're someone I've sort of kept track of on LinkedIn for quite some time and it's sort of seen sort of you post and things like that where you're helping people. Question for you, maybe just to get us started, what took you down a path? Because you obviously have a long career in the Marine Corps, but then jumped into analytics as a career after that. Why the additional work? Helping people with careers and things like that. What, what was the impetus then?

[Julie Hoyer]

Analytics just doesn't pay. Had to have a side hustle.

[Michael Helbling]

I. I don't think you make a ton of money helping people find jobs. I mean, I, I don't know.

[Tim Wilson]

Not yet. Okay.

[Michael Helbling]

Not yet.

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah, give it time.

[Michael Helbling]

Making analytics. Anyways, I was just curious. This is sort of a intro question for you, I guess.

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah, the 9 to 5 does still pay the bills. Career coaching is supplemental as of yet. It. Yeah, it's kind of antithetical to a military career. I hesitate to call it a long military career. Really wasn't really that long. So 24 years in the military, most people get out and they kind of leverage that to do something sort of defense adjacent and stay in the industrial complex. I found that was there for me and it was there for me in an analytic space working for contractors. I had a couple of offers and I just felt like it was something I wanted to get away from. And you sort of really go into the analytics space and totally get away from people leveraging things that I already knew. And yeah, so it was funny because I decided to retire and you have to put in for it. Career service member. You have to put in for it several months up to like over a year ahead of time. So I did that. And so I knew I was transitioning out, but I still had this very time consuming, very overwhelming job. And also we were leading during COVID which you can imagine was kind of a nightmare. And so we were there in the office. We were like the only people that didn't ever take a day off during COVID And so I just had little time in little snippets, five, ten minutes here and there between tasks or know I could listen to a podcast like this one, driving to and from work. That was about all the time I had. Everything else was either for my Marines or for my family. And I, I started going to these webinars on how to use LinkedIn and I found that, yeah, this is actually, I was not a social media guy, but like, this kind of works because I can just find a contact or two and fire off a message or, you know, or make a quick post in 10, 15 minutes, get on there, respond to a few people. So networking was one of the few things I could actually do in the time that I had. And then the fast forward and this was never really the plan, but I wound up getting working on a podcast myself after connecting with the podcaster and saying, hey, I'm a big fan. And. And then, you know, he said, hey, you're kind of good at this LinkedIn thing. Can you run my page for me as a project? And that wound up going for like six months and, you know, one thing led to another and then it. That led a couple steps down the road to a connection that got me my first job, which was in marketing analytics, which is why I started listening to marketing analytics podcasts, Hence bucket list. You know, fast forward three years. Very cool. Yeah, I don't know if that answered why people come to me for advice. I think that's kind of the next step. But that was sort of how the, you know, the LinkedIn presence and network and all of that sort of stuff came to be.

[Julie Hoyer]

But I mean, it is actually interesting because I'm not, I don't know exactly where you came onto my radar, but whether it's the LinkedIn algorithm or just the volume and quality of like, content that you're producing. So it's kind of fascinating to me to have to hear you say that. Well, you weren't really NETWORKING or on LinkedIn. And I think there is some natural kind of charisma and motivation that you have. And I mean, you are kind of a model. This gets a little meta because a lot of, a lot of what you talk about, you put some of the Alteryx stuff on there, but a lot of what you talk about is the using LinkedIn. And you are prolific. You have a point of view. You do video, you do different formats. And it certainly, I mean, my perception is, yeah, like you, you could have, you could say you've been doing the LinkedIn for 20 years because it seems like you're kind of a machine on it. So if, if nothing else, and I'm sure we'll get into some of this is like establishing a network and establishing credibility and establishing some currency. It's not a, you can't do it tomorrow. Like, you can't. I think we were. I had the. Have had the experience of being at meetups, when the first time somebody comes is after, you know, 10 years after they've been at their job, and they never had time to come to the meetup, and then they left their job, not on their own terms, and then they came, and it's. It's fine, like, you're welcome, but it's not like, come to a meetup and get a job. It's like, build the community, build the network. So what was that, Michael? You'd said the warning about three or four part question. I guess I'm trying to kind of head into that. Like, how one piece of the doing a job search does seem like it's that building a network, maybe that's separate from building credibility. You seem to have done both kind of in a couple of areas. And is that a good starting point for people who are in a job search to say, I can't. I can't have no presence and no meaningful network?

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah, well, I mean, it's a bad time to plant an apple tree when you're hungry. You know, it's. It's. You kind of got to plan ahead for that. Yeah. I did a. I did a course recently where I had my wife on co hosting, really just managing the chat, and I sprung this thing on her, gave her zero warning, and I just started asking her questions. I was like, hey, how often, like, we. We live in the same house, we both work from home. How often do we talk? And she kind of said, ten times a day. I'm like, okay, if I stop talking to you for a day, how are you gonna feel? And, like, mad that you. You're probably mad at me about something. I'm like, okay, how about a week? If I stopped talking to you for a week for no reason, how are you gonna feel? Like, mad. Okay, how about six months? Like, if I stop talking to you for a year, what are you gonna do? And she didn't want to answer that. I'm like, you're probably gonna be calling a lawyer. And I say, after a year of not talking to you, if I just suddenly wake up one morning and I'm like, hey, how's it going? Give you a kiss and just go on like nothing ever happened, you're going to be a bit freaked out by that. LinkedIn is an attempt to approximate in real life, human interaction. Maybe not with a spouse, but it's just like anybody that you don't talk to for a year, if you suddenly show up a year later, like, hey, sorry I haven't called, but I'm Fired. And I see you got a job at this place. Can you give me a referral? They're probably going to help you out, but it's not going to be like, hey, we're friends. Can you vouch for my work ethic? And you know what you know of me as a person? Like, it would be if you kept that relationship going. So it seems creepy and weird to say you've got a relationship with a social media platform, but you kind of do if you're doing it right. And so if you ghost LinkedIn for a year, when you come back a year later, LinkedIn is going to be like your wife, if you don't talk to her for a year, like, they're not going to be super friendly to you. And so you've got to kind of make amends, if you will. So with the people and with the platform and with your network, I'm trying.

[Julie Hoyer]

To think if I asked my wife through that and the question was, how long until you noticed? And then how long until you wanted me to talk to you? Like, how long? Like, when would the euphoria end?

[Tim Wilson]

I didn't ask those questions, man. You don't want some things, you don't want to know the answer.

[Julie Hoyer]

But it does seem like LinkedIn. It's, it's. And there's, there's creating content, there's, there's engaging with content and there's connecting with people that I'm sure there's lots of other ways to kind of frame it. I, I get a lot, as much of people as people like to kind of, it's easy to kind of crap on LinkedIn and AI generated stuff and, oh, it's just self promotion. But I still regularly find stuff that I think is useful and I feel like I have, whether it's a like or whether it's some comment of a. Hey, that made me think. I mean, I'm not, I don't get into kind of flaming words, but I, but I hear people who will say, I don't have the time or I'm just not. That's just not me. Like, and I don't have a good answer because I'm like, well, apparently that is me. It's like an introvert, extrovert type question. Do you have people who say, like, I'm so uncomfortable doing this, it doesn't feel natural.

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah.

[Julie Hoyer]

Or I don't have the time.

[Tim Wilson]

Is that that four part question?

[Julie Hoyer]

Yep, that was seven part question. And I was, yeah, I was making, I was definitely looking straight at Julie for all of that. Saying it for her was.

[Tim Wilson]

It was the hand raise that I identify with that Julie.

[Albert Bellamy]

I feel very, very seen by those statements. I'm a little scared.

[Michael Helbling]

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[Tim Wilson]

Yeah, well, and I get a lot of people. People are afraid to post content for valid reasons a lot of time because they're in a job where their boss doesn't know that they're not super happy and they don't feel comfortable telling them so they're definitely not going to raise the old green banner. But even starting to create content, even if it's not, I'm looking for a job content, just any kind of content. They're just like, hey, my, my boss is watching my account and the minute I start posting, there's going to be questions asked about whether I'm fishing for another job. That's a real concern. I don't, I've never found a great answer for that other than just like, well, you gotta kind of make your Decision there, big dog. Like suck it up, I guess. Yeah.

[Julie Hoyer]

So except to me that the answer there is like, there's value in building the network, even if I'm trying to draw people in. Like there is valuable content and there is reason to be. You know, I didn't, I don't know where I met Michael Kaminsky, but I've learned a lot just from kind of following him about media mix modeling, not when I was, you know, remotely looking for a job.

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah, so it's, I think there's so many reasons. I mean, we already hit on reasons to be consistent with presence on there, with keeping your profile up, with content creation. Not everybody's going to be a content creator, especially on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is a maybe the most content poor platform that there is, even with the wave of AI content now you think about the average person on Facebook, they're on their posting like consistently. The average person on Instagram is on their posting consistently. TikTok, all of these, you know, and you do have kind of mega creators. But most people with those accounts, they're putting stuff out there, or at least a significant percentage, it's estimated, of active LinkedIn accounts, like not even the ones that have been like Ghosted or started 20 years ago and never checked. Active LinkedIn accounts. People that get on there consistently, less than 10% create any content at all. And so it's a tiny minority of the, I think they're getting close to like a billion accounts now, but it's a tiny minority of those accounts that create any content. So you're really, it's like the David Goggins, like, it's so easy to be great. It's, it's really not that hard to be a good content creator on LinkedIn because all you really have to do is put stuff out there and hopefully not kind of wholesale AI generated. And the, to me, again, the cure to my boss is watching my profile is just put out content regularly and then your boss won't think anything's weird when you start.

[Albert Bellamy]

Good point. Get ahead of it. And so when you say to like nurture the relationship, are you saying nurture the relationship with the platform? Because we've been talking a lot about interact with it, put out content, do something. Is that so Are you saying, yeah, keep the relationship up with the platform itself, Are you saying the people on it or is it a mixture?

[Tim Wilson]

Yes. And also. Yes. Okay. Yeah, for sure. The platform itself is trying to mimic in real life human interaction, an actual networking space where you're going in and Having a martini with the people and, you know, circulating around the room, it's. It's doing its best always to approximate that as best it can. So anytime you go into the group's function or the. Or a page or a, you know, it's. It's trying to encourage the kind of behaviors that you would have talking to people in real life. So you think about walking into a live networking event. You're not going to walk up to someone, look them dead in the eye, slip your business card in their pocket, turn around and walk away. You're going to get arrested if you do that. And so they discourage that kind of impersonal connection in that that connection is not going to be super rewarding when, you know, Julie, if you and I connect on LinkedIn, we never exchange a message. It's just a, you know, easy connect blue button, and we accept, and that's it. And then six months from now, I like one of your posts. You're not going to get much boost from that just because we're not engaged connections. Whereas if we were talking, as Tim and I engage on each other's posts fairly regularly, then when I talk on Tim's post or he talks on mine, that gives the post an increased boost. So it's like, hey, Tim and I are friends in real life, Julie. You and I don't talk. So one relationship is more productive than the other.

[Albert Bellamy]

Interesting.

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah.

[Albert Bellamy]

Wow. Okay. I have so many questions.

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah. And we'll bore everybody to tears. I can geek out for a long time talking about the different interactions and how they increase engagement and distribution, and that will make for a dull podcast.

[Albert Bellamy]

I think there are. There are two directions that my brain is going to simultaneously.

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah.

[Albert Bellamy]

One is, see, if you ask both.

[Julie Hoyer]

Of those, if you go in both directions simultaneously, then I can just pick.

[Tim Wilson]

Which one I want to ask. Yeah.

[Julie Hoyer]

Can we choose Julie, or was that.

[Albert Bellamy]

Yeah, here. I'll take your burden from you, Tim. Okay. Door one is. Can we talk about then choosing. You said the informal blue connection button. Honestly, that's. Again, man, I'm like, you know, it's good that I'm on this one because I AM the worst LinkedIn user, apparently. Yeah. Like, I get a list of people that want to connect. You know, we were chatting about this a little earlier. Like, I've tried to think of criteria to actually connect with people, but I've definitely fallen down the hole of, like, I don't know these people. I've never interacted with them. They want to connect. They're in the field. Maybe I have one mutual connection.

[Julie Hoyer]

Sure.

[Albert Bellamy]

But then we don't talk. So door one is how do you choose when to connect or not? If you have guidelines on that, I would love to hear door two is. It sounds like you can tell a lot about a person by looking at their LinkedIn profile. And I'd be curious to hear like your yellow, green and red flags when you look at someone's LinkedIn profile. Which door do we want to go down?

[Tim Wilson]

You can, I think you can infer a lot with some degree of probability by their profile. There's definitely, you know, there's exceptions to everything. What was the first part I already forgot?

[Albert Bellamy]

Oh, see, I think you just want to go down doors, which is fine. The first one was criteria like on connecting and stuff like that, which really.

[Julie Hoyer]

Could have two doors because it's when do you accept and when do you, when do you initiate one versus also when do you accept one?

[Albert Bellamy]

Which door do we want to start?

[Tim Wilson]

I would just say, I mean, I tell my students, like, you decide who gets in your sandbox and you don't have to be nice about it then you don't have to be consistent about it either. There. Some days you're feeling nice and you're just like, yeah, you can all come in. And some days you're just, you're just like, okay, well, if I don't feel. Honestly, the criterion now is like it might. Is there any advantage to connecting with the person? If not, don't bother. Clearly they see some advantage to connecting with you, but if they haven't taken the time to express that to you, then like, why. So, yeah, a lot of times, sometimes if it's someone, if it's someone I've heard of, then yeah, absolutely, sure. Think. Is it Zach? Exactly. I can't remember, is it Zach Wilson or is that the actor? Anyway, Zach, he's a programmer guy, data engineer. He and I just had never, I'd seen his content and for whatever reason we'd never connected. And then recently I commented on a couple of his posts and he sent me a connection request. And he's big name, well known influencer, got probably half a million connections. That was an immediate. He didn't have to send me a message like if, if I've heard of you and I know who you are by your brand, it's a yes. Anybody else? It's like I always tell my people, send a personal message and make it about, you know, it's the Dale Carnegie thing, like to, to be interesting, be interested. If you make it about the other person. And you say, I'm interested in connecting with you because something about them that is not, you know, it's advantageous to me. But Tim, I see you're from Ohio. I'm also from Ohio. Like, hey, oh, you know, whatever. And you can. Yeah, whatever. I didn't expect an answer. I don't even know if he's a Buckeye fan. Yeah, I know, I know. He loves the sports ball.

[Michael Helbling]

That would so work on Tim. Tim would love that. Everybody. Big University of Texas.

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah.

[Michael Helbling]

So no, no, that's why I'm encouraging everyone listening to. Throw out the oh to Tim.

[Julie Hoyer]

It'll totally work. Albert had an OSU thing in the background and I was like, what's your Ohio connection then? So it actually went the other way.

[Tim Wilson]

But yeah, you can see, you know, if they went to your alma mater or that, you know, I've got, hey, if I see their veteran, that's a touch point. But just show that you've, you've expressed some interest in something about them and that gives them incentive. You've got skin in the game and you've gone and shown some interest in some aspect of their personality. As far as red flags, I mean, it's just, you know, if you've got, if you've got a headline that says you're about to pitch me some business deal the second I accept. If it says, you know, I help people with financial. No.

[Julie Hoyer]

Is there anything about people start franchises?

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah. Is anything about like open overt politics in the headline? Yeah, yeah. Kind of illicit substances. Let's say anything like that. It's like, no, I don't Bitcoin. Like they're just, they're going to try and sell you something if they have a super creepy looking profile. If they have, if they're the. There was a wave for a long time of bots that were like the CEO of l' Oreal and they had ten connections. Yeah, doubtful. And they went to Stanford, Harvard and mit. So anyway, yeah, the bots got real weird for a while there. I haven't seen too many lately. Yeah. And the picture is like clearly an Instagram model or something like that. It's like, I, I don't think you're, you're interested in me if you, if you actually look like that and are the CEO of a major, you know, company anyway. But yeah, anything, anything that raises, like, makes your Spidey sense go off, just say, no, life's too short. It's the odds of it being productive even. Any connection, you accept the Odds of it being production is productive are slim.

[Albert Bellamy]

Yeah, that's.

[Tim Wilson]

So if you go out there and you find 100 people that look interesting and you send 100 connection requests, you're going to get 75 yeses. And then from that, half of them won't, won't talk at all. Like even to respond to an intro message of the, you know, 30 or 40 left, half of them won't talk to you beyond, you know, great connection or, you know, nice to meet you. So you're down to like 20 from your original hundred. And then half of those it'll be a, like a two message conversation. So you're already down to like single digits that have any potential of becoming a productive connection. So yeah, the odds of any one person being like the big winner for you, like your lottery ticket, it's slim and none. So, yeah, better to default to. No, I find.

[Michael Helbling]

All right, let's switch gears a little bit because I want to dive into resumes a little bit.

[Tim Wilson]

Okay.

[Michael Helbling]

To reuse the phrase. Back in my day, like a resume was.

[Tim Wilson]

There was only one.

[Michael Helbling]

Yeah, I had one day. I capitalized on it. Here I am. No, but the, you know, it's just very, very different. So back during COVID I was helping, running a networking group for people who were looking for work and we brought in some folks to like talk about this. And this is kind of where I first learned about sort of like how to make your resume machine readable and those kinds of things. But like the state of the art has shifted in resume building quite a bit in the last 10 years.

[Julie Hoyer]

We're not worrying about the weight and the quality of the paper that it's printed on as much.

[Michael Helbling]

Yeah, that kind of stuff. Like the, the weight of the paper, like Kinko's you use to print it out. Like that's how long ago my resume. Yeah, exactly. So anyway, so let's, let's dive into that a little bit because I think people apply, like that's one thing I hear from people all the time is like they apply for positions and just never hear anything back. And it's sort of like, okay, well then resume has to be something to that. So what do people need to do? Just leave it wide open.

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah.

[Michael Helbling]

More specifics. But like maybe pick a, pick a point of entry and then we'll dig into it more.

[Tim Wilson]

Let me answer your question with a question. How are they applying? I don't know. It's a hypothetical. But that would. That's what I usually ask them when they say I've Applied a hundred times. Cool how?

[Michael Helbling]

Yeah, and I don't know the answer to that for everybody, but a lot of people, I talk to you like they apply via LinkedIn, which I. My first advice to people is like, never go through the front door on a job search advisor. You get. You look at any job posting on LinkedIn, you'll see right at the top, it's like 500 applicants for this role already. After 24 hours, it's like, okay, your resume is not going to stand out at all if you just go straight through that process. You're, you're, it's like playing the lottery at that point. So you should do something different than just send your resume through that, that portal.

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah. So on the, on the MAS applications, couple ways you can go on that one. So the, the don't fret way is if you see a thousand applications for a job on LinkedIn, assume that at least half of them are wildly unqualified. Like not even in, in the industry, not even relevant to that job title. They're just clicking the blue button as many times as they can, hoping to get lucky. I've heard estimates 50 to 75% of online applications have no business even being in a conversation.

[Michael Helbling]

I literally have not posted job postings in my career that I'm hiring for simply to avoid the deluge of resumes. Like, it's like a lot. It's sort of like, figure out who we want for this role and then use our network. That's way better than putting it out there. And eventually you do have to, if you can't find the right person or whatever. But it's pretty crazy how many resumes you get.

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah, I would say that. So my answer to the, you know, what hope do I have? Is if you're generally, if you're in the ballpark and opinions vary on what percentage of the requirements do you need to get considered? It probably depends on the job, but, you know, there's a lot of myths out there. The, the other, other myth is apply if you're 70% qualified, because job listings are kind of pie in the sky unicorn qualifications, and they don't really mean anything. My experience has been the total opposite, that while job listings may have skills that you don't wind up using on a constant basis, they are by and large, accurate descriptions of the skills that they want to see in an applicant and the skills that you might use in the job. Maybe not all the time. And you know, the, the kind of counter logic is hiring is terrible. I mean, you just talked about it. It's, it's awful. Hiring managers don't like hiring. HR people don't. They don't like hiring. It's not fun. It's not the part of their job that they like. So when you have a job that sucks but has to be done, your incentive is to get that done as quickly and efficiently as possible and in such a manner that you don't have to do it again anytime soon. Which means hire someone for that job that's going to stick and that's going to be competent at it and the one that you can get quickly and efficiently. So what incentive would any business have accepting maybe the cream of the crop fang jobs or whatever they're calling it now? Those can charge whatever they want, but standard analytics jobs, why would they listen a bunch of qualifications that don't matter, that's going to make their hiring process more difficult and that's the last thing they want. So you should look at a job description and assume if there's a must have and then a nice to have, those are accurate. Must have means. If you don't have these, you're hoping to get lucky at that point. Now, depending on what kind of candidates they get, they may pull in people that have 80% of the must haves or 90%. But again, that's a. You're taking a chance there. There are plenty of jobs out there that have a skill set that matches your or a description that matches your skill set. If you're shooting for kind of pie in the sky dream jobs, just assume that those are probably going to people that have the full list of qualifications if they can find those people. But a lot of the jobs listed online are. They're listed there as a formality. And that employer may still intend to give the job to either an internal candidate or an internal referral, but due to some policy restriction, they're required to list it online. So there's a certain percentage of jobs that you see ON Indeed or LinkedIn that I don't know that they won't read any applications. But the online applicants don't really have much of a shot.

[Julie Hoyer]

So does that get us back to Now I've got two doors because one door is I kind of want to do a lightning round of. When you're Everything that you just said, does that say you really do need to get the discipline to take a good hard look at your resume and tailor it to the job you're applying for. The other path I want to go down is, well, wait a minute. If Lots of people are applying for jobs where the likely candidate is already. The likely person getting the job is already determined. Is that. Does that get us back to saying, yeah, the resume matters, but it doesn't matter when you're doing a cold application to a job. It matters when you've made a connection into a company and found an opportunity and are already two steps into the process. Like, I know somebody who said they made like a. An Uber resume, like a way, way too long resume. And the way they're using AI is saying they put that resume in with the job description and say, help me shrink down to what's relevant. Which doesn't have to be AI, but that could also be the. I mean, I remember going through that. I've got my perfect. I've captured everything. But that's in the abstract for the general type of position I was looking for, not for the position being hired. Which means I may have left out relevant details for a specific position, but that takes more time and work. So is that. Do you recommend when you're doing resume coaching? Are you saying this resume should be different for every job you apply for?

[Tim Wilson]

I highly recommend. Now, you can succeed with a volume approach. It's. People get jobs that way. Assuming your. My advice would be tailor your searches very well. Get good alerts that, you know, ping you when target companies are hiring or when jobs come up that match your skill set. But yeah, people can. Can get hired with a volume approach if that's how they want that. There's pros and cons to both jobs do still get allocated that way. My advice is, hey, if you want to. If you want to get a job that is really well suited for you and your skill set, then I would tailor resumes and you just, you know, only take the sniper shots, not the, the spray and pray was the second part now. I forgotten that now.

[Julie Hoyer]

Yeah. Not doing the volume approach. If you're doing. I guess maybe it's the target. Is the targeted approach going to companies and finding postings or is the targeted approach building a network and making sure people that you've got relationships with are aware that you're looking and therefore you're on their.

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah.

[Julie Hoyer]

Radar.

[Tim Wilson]

I guess I would say Michael nailed it. I mean, don't. You don't want to be the guy going in the front door or the gal. I mean, you just. Because that's where the mass is going in. If you can. If you can find an in or if you can kind of, you know, do both at the same time. So, you know, you submit your application at the same time that you're looking up a couple of people on LinkedIn. If you don't already have connections at that company, look up a couple of people and just, and, and be upfront about it. Like you don't want to be. People think it's some sort of like spy operation. But you know, be upfront about it. Just, just be like, hey, I'd love to connect with you. I'm interested in this company. You know, if you have time, I'd love to ask you a couple of specific questions and then just, and make sure they are specific. Like nobody wants to sit there and try and work out essay answers to why do you like working Alteryx or you know, what's the best and worst thing about the company? Like, it shows no effort. But if, if you're saying like, hey, what department do you work in? It seems like there's a job listing there and, and you ask specific questions about certain jobs. Okay. Then you're taking a lot of the mental energy away from the recipient that they have to put out and much easier to answer specific questions. But yeah, I would say like, make the connections there, you know, see if there's a relationship there that you can leverage. And yeah, and try and try and hit up people that are kind of at your level or slightly above that could maybe put in a referral, referral for you or at least let HR know that, hey, they can flag your resume or something like that. And then they can, you know, most, most companies have a bonus for that. So they've got a vested interest or the most.

[Julie Hoyer]

The tricky thing there is that it's like you, you don't. If they've got a referral, then they need to be the one who submits it. So it's not as useful to, hey, I applied, now you will you submit it. And it's just their, their attribution mechanism is such that they're like, no, no, no, that person needs to drop it in through.

[Tim Wilson]

Some companies want the referral first. So if the, if the application hits first, then there's no referral bonus. Which is unfortunate. But yeah, that's kind of luck of the draw.

[Albert Bellamy]

Why is it that sparking a thought for me that I heard people would, that have referral programs, like, they'd almost be like, hey, I know you have a referral program. I just put my application in, like if you give me a referral to bump me up, like knowing they would get a bent like a bonus. But like, they don't actually Know the person. Why did I hear. That's like a, that was like a thing for a while. So they were trying to like.

[Julie Hoyer]

No, that was, it was, that was definitely something in Morning Brew there was some sort of scam that was happening where it was. Yeah, now we will try.

[Albert Bellamy]

It was like fake and they were like, you give me 10 of your referral bonus but I'll help you get the bonus. Or like they work in the system. Something crazy.

[Tim Wilson]

Straight up fraud.

[Julie Hoyer]

There was, there was a total, total scam going on. That. Yeah, sorry, that was a random link. I remember that as well. So therefore I know what the source was.

[Tim Wilson]

I've definitely had people hit me up and you know, there's that thought in the back of your mind like hey, I could get an easy whatever. And you know, at the bottom line you got to decide what your word is worth. And. Yeah, and, and even just in referring. Even if you take the money out of it, even if there was no bonus, don't you want the referral to mean something? So it's like if, you know, if three people I've never met that just connected with me say hey, refer me for a job at Alteryx and I do and then they either don't get hired or they do get hired and they're terrible. And then Tim comes to me for a referral. Now I've, I've used up all my best bullets and HRs like yeah, we've, we heard of you.

[Julie Hoyer]

That does the unintended effect, the negative like oh those.

[Tim Wilson]

Oh yeah. It's easy. It's easy to crap on your reputation, especially internal to a company for sure.

[Julie Hoyer]

So how, how do so from a. In person networking and this is where I feel like I've been the. I've been on the receiving end of them a lot and occasionally there have been points in my career where I've done them. The like let's just meet for coffee. Whether in person or virtually just kind of a. I want to stay connected. I've known you. We haven't caught up in a while. I guess because I hear what you're saying, like you don't want to have it. You need to go in with a plan. But if you go in with too hard of a. Of an agenda then that kind of, that can kind of undermine the some level of senior. I'm sincere, I'm trying to maintain a professional connection. Like do you have like what. What's good versus what's bad if somebody's doing a so called informational interview or A coffee ketchup.

[Tim Wilson]

My question is, what's the nature of your relationship? If it's, if it's a friend friend that you also know in some sort of professional context, that person's going to anticipate that a coffee chat is just a catch up. So if you have something else in mind, you probably want to be upfront about that. I've had it the other way where people will get a coffee chat with me and they're not personal friends, they're connections and, or you know, fellow veterans or something like that. And at the end of it, it kind of gets awkward because I'm fully expecting that they're going to ask for something. And if they don't, then it's like, all right, I don't know what to do with my hands now, but it's like, okay, I expect you to ask me for a referral or you know, who can I connect you to? Or something like that. So, you know, as much as I like to talk to people, at the end it's, it's like, hey, we're professional connections and, and this is clearly a networking meeting. Let's, let's do something. And if, and if at the end it's again, it's some kind of vague, non specific question like, is there anything I can do for you? I don't know, man.

[Julie Hoyer]

Is there like that one you suggest something question. That's the one where I'm like, I'm like, oh, that was read in a book somewhere that guidance was given. I'm like, yeah, I, yeah, it's so bad. That's going to be cringe.

[Tim Wilson]

Don't make. Everybody's only got so many mind bullets to fire. Don't make the other person waste their mind bullets on you. Like set it up for like, here's what I can do for you. Is that good yet? Check yes or no. That's an easy to answer question. Give me a true, false or multiple choice. Don't give me an essay.

[Julie Hoyer]

Okay, so I'm gonna run down. This is cheating. Cause we have sort of a list. But yeah, give it a little commentary if you need to. So some resumes. Headshot like a picture. Is that an include, don't include. Doesn't matter.

[Tim Wilson]

Never ever. Hell no. Why?

[Albert Bellamy]

I have to know why.

[Tim Wilson]

So first of all, some scanners are still a little antiquated and it will, any graphics will throw them off. I say no logos, no pictures, no nothing. Second of all, it can introduce bias and you just, there's, there's no reason for it yeah, there's just no upside. It kind of relates to. And I've totally derailed the lightning round already, but it kind of relates to. I tell people, never put a date on your education because whether you're too young or too old, it just gives somebody an opportunity to say, not this person. If the requirement is you, you need to have a bachelor's degree and you have a bachelor's degree from an accredited university. That's all they need to know. They don't need to know the date. And same thing with your picture. Like, don't give them a reason to say, oh, I don't like his face or her teeth or, you know, whatever.

[Julie Hoyer]

I mean, that's actually. I mean, that's a. You're. You're providing data that could introduce bias that is not relevant, is objectively should not be relevant.

[Albert Bellamy]

Yep.

[Julie Hoyer]

And that's a great point.

[Tim Wilson]

Okay.

[Julie Hoyer]

But you added a bonus one that I had not thought. Should you put dates on your education? Because I've. The older I get, the more I've started noticing when people don't have a date. And I'm like, oh, that's because, I mean, I find myself doing that math when I'm, look, just trying to get an under. I mean, snooping on LinkedIn.

[Tim Wilson]

So it's out there. You could find it if you want to go looking for it. But yeah, when they read the resume, there's no upside to it.

[Julie Hoyer]

But should people have headshots? I mean, on LinkedIn, because then I get kind of like a little weird when I'm like, I don't even know. You're just an avatar or.

[Tim Wilson]

Oh, yeah, that's a killer. That's an absolute. Yeah. Deny always for me. If you only put a picture of your face on. Done.

[Julie Hoyer]

Okay, so how is that different? Because I agree.

[Albert Bellamy]

But then we're losing the lightning because.

[Tim Wilson]

It'S social media, isn't it? Quick, like we're trying to establish a relationship. I'm not hiring you. I'm, you know, you're not getting out there, making some friends.

[Julie Hoyer]

Okay. Wow. Julie's just jumping in on the heart. Okay, what about an objective statement.

[Tim Wilson]

At.

[Julie Hoyer]

The top of the resume?

[Tim Wilson]

I don't like those. Because that's about you. All. All of job seeking is sales. You're selling yourself as the talent, your ability to do a job, make money for a business. And so an objective statement to me, makes the resume about you. The resume, ironically, is not about you. It's about the value that you present to the employer. And so putting a summary Or a highlight section. That is about value that you present to the employer. Objective is, here's what I want. Nobody gives what you want. It's just like, you're a commodity. You're there to do a job.

[Julie Hoyer]

I like that distinction. I feel like people contort themselves into that because they say, oh, the objective. You want to make sure that that person's objective aligns with what we need. But that's back to putting that mental burden on them to say, oh, I'm going to talk about what I want, and then I'm going to put the burden on whoever's looking at it to say, does that align with what we want? I don't know if that's a fair guess. Making them work too hard.

[Tim Wilson]

Yep. They want a person to do a thing. Show them that you can do the thing and you've done the thing before. End of story.

[Julie Hoyer]

Okay, so I'll combine, like, black and white versus color. Highly stylized. Like, really working on some beautiful Canva created resume versus just the facts.

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah, I don't want to. I love Canva. I don't want to dog on Canva because I use Canva constantly. The one thing I will never, ever use Canva for is a resume. They just. Their templates are just wacky. No, there's no upside to having it look like you're a ballerina or an interior decorator. It's like, get the information out there. Now there's, you know, if you're using, like, the standard word template with, like, the calibri or the aerial font. Yeah. Okay. You can. You can graduate from that like you're not in kindergarten. Yeah. No, no. Comic Sans.

[Michael Helbling]

What about charts that showcase your skills?

[Tim Wilson]

Oh, my gosh. No. Just no. Yeah. And that's actually an awesome point, though. Yeah, Absolutely not. Because to me, that's quantifying skills. My clients always tell them, skills are binary. You've got it or you don't. And the rubric for do you have it? Is. If I gave you a task right now and said, go solve this in python, you have two days to come back to me, could you pull it off? Do you have to go, like, hand it off to somebody else? Or could you, you know, with a kind of limited rush off the rust time, could you accomplish that? If that's. If that's a yes, put python on your resume. You don't have to use it every day. But if it's. If it's a kind of rusty ish skill and you've got some skills, because people will sit There and be like intermediate Excel, advanced Excel. That's all relative to something else that you're measuring. We all know a guy or gal that can do Excel in their sleep and never touch the mouse.

[Julie Hoyer]

But I wonder, I mean, okay, his.

[Michael Helbling]

Name is Tim Wilson.

[Julie Hoyer]

No, well, that's right. I mean, take Python or SQL.

[Michael Helbling]

Oh yeah.

[Julie Hoyer]

It's fascinating to say treat it as a Python or SQL or R. Even Power Bi. Like people who have used Power Bi, but they have no idea what DAX is or what Power Query is. I'm struggling with a little bit of how do you represent the. I've had to dabble in that and I'm comfortable that I could ramp up and learn it versus I've done pretty detailed stuff in that. Just not in a while. I guess if I've done pretty detailed stuff, it should be captured in the experience that should be reflected that, you know, you were a real Jackie in SQL.

[Tim Wilson]

I'm out list Excel, but I've never messed with PQ or VBA or anything like that. So again, I know a dozen people that can run circles around me in Excel, but I can do Excel and I can do more than the average Bear. So, you know, if you give me an Excel project, I can figure it out.

[Julie Hoyer]

Got it. Maximum page count two, 10 years or less.

[Tim Wilson]

One page, 10 years or more. And I know there's, you know, you have the greater than or equal to. But over 10 years you get two pages. I'm of the opinion you should always endeavor to get it on one page. And it just goes back to that Mark Twain. You know, if I had more time, I'd have written you a shorter letter. Yeah, the more, the better you are at it, the shorter it's going to be.

[Julie Hoyer]

And I guess I like that too. Like if. If that forces you to condense it down and there's a. If you had to cut the stuff that was painful. One, that means when you're tailoring your resume for specific jobs, you have more to draw on. And two, it means when you're actually in the interview, there's stuff that wasn't on the resume that you can bring to bear that's relevant to a conversation. So I mean, just think about how.

[Tim Wilson]

How much more powerful and impactful the things. If you, if you've got four pages worth of stuff and you have to cut it to two, oh my God, that's going to be the greatest two pages ever written in the history of data analytics. So why wouldn't you want to do that? Yeah, I've heard It from hiring managers. They're like, hey, if I get it anything more than one page, I freak out. Especially for like entry level. It's just kiss of death.

[Julie Hoyer]

That's fast. Because that's actually back to the point you made earlier about putting the. If you give somebody a four, we tell ourselves, I gave somebody four pages so that way they can find anything they possibly want. You burden them with having to sift through four pages and try to figure out what they care about.

[Tim Wilson]

That's a homework assignment.

[Julie Hoyer]

Nobody wants that Skills section. Should there always be a skill section? I mean always.

[Michael Helbling]

And should you mention that you have a podcast? No reason.

[Tim Wilson]

That's a maybe. Yeah, I would agree.

[Michael Helbling]

Like that depends on the job you're going for. If it would help you to get the job. If you had a podcast, then see.

[Tim Wilson]

I was doing analytics of followers and metrics and KPIs for the podcast that I was working on. That was my project. Now it just grew through heads and became everything else's. Well, as podcasts do. I mean, you only have so many people working on it, so. But yeah, I definitely. I think I still have it on mine. I list the parent company, but I do list the name of the podcast. And you know that I tracked these metrics for.

[Julie Hoyer]

What about when it comes to the professional history? And one, it's if somebody's kind of long in the tooth and they've gone, they go way back. But also, what if somebody. If somebody has changed jobs and maybe only the last one or maybe two roles are seem directly relevant. They went from being a teacher to being in analytics. What's kind of the include versus not criteria there?

[Tim Wilson]

It still always comes back to make it about them and make it about the value you can provide. So is there something that communicates the value you can provide? If so, include it. You got to get into. Yeah, sometimes there is a concern of age discrimination. If you're showing 35 years of professional history, they're going to start wondering about if they offer health care and what that's going to cost them. You know, so fair, unfair. It just, it enters into the calculus and therefore it's something that you should be mindful of. So I would say minimum, if you have more than 10 years of relevant experience, you should include at least 10. The one thing I would say is I think, I don't know if it's Russell Brunson or who somebody in marketing says confused mind always says no. Maybe one of y' all know who that's attributable to. But, yeah, confused mind always says no. So if you put things on your resume that generate more questions and you're not there to answer them, as you aren't in a, you know, cold application process, you're. You're going to be sunk. So if you put stuff on there, like additional experience available on request. Nah, you're generating more questions about you and why you didn't put it on there in the first place. So just, you know, if you've got 20 years, 10 of it's relevant, put the 10 on there. And you're. You're not lying. You're not saying, this is every job I've ever had. I interned for a minor league baseball team for a summer. I don't put that on my resume. It's not relevant. Half of the things I did in the Marine Corps, not relevant to the business I'm in now. So I don't list them.

[Julie Hoyer]

That actually is. Okay. That's going to be my last one. Is the kind of personal interests, fun facts, hobbies, the sort of thing that people I've heard, I've known, maybe I've even. Was this a bit like. Yeah. For years early in my career, I put, you know, hiked. Hiked the Appalachian Trail from Georgia to Maine, you know, upon college completion. And I told myself, I'm like, well, that's something that if they're. They're interviewing, they can't. They have.

[Michael Helbling]

That is why I hired you, Tim.

[Tim Wilson]

There you go.

[Michael Helbling]

That was the thing.

[Julie Hoyer]

I mean, I also told myself, I'm like, well, it shows that I've got the. The ability to kind of get something done. But it feels like from your criteria, you'd be like, no, generally don't do that, because it's not necessarily helping them.

[Tim Wilson]

No, don't make them. You don't want them to interpret metaphors either. I mean, that's the same thing. You're making them do. Homework and fire mind bullets. Don't do that. Yeah. Listing hobbies, interests, skills. I'm a dog dad or whatever that is. Even I'm a human dad. I've got three wonderful kids. Nope. Nobody cares. It doesn't add to your value in the workplace. It doesn't? Yeah. It doesn't demonstrate that you're responsible or that you have interest. No, it's. That's always buying a lottery ticket to me. It's like a. You're wasting space, and space is valuable on a resume. So, you know, if nothing else, you could take that off and make the font bigger and make it easier to Read B. You're buying a lottery ticket. Like, I put on there. Oh, I'm an avid road cyclist, which I'm not. I hate road cyclists. So if anybody here is one of those, then I'm sorry, but I just despise them.

[Julie Hoyer]

But avid road cyclist, Nancy Dooley. No, no. No offense.

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah, I've known good people that were road cyclists, but they were the exception, I feel. But you put that on there, you're buying a lottery tickets. Like, I'm hoping maybe somebody in the hiring chain is interested in that and interested enough to say, oh, let's put this guy at the top of the stack because we share some hobby. I just don't see it happening.

[Julie Hoyer]

Here's a Billy for photos of my. My field trip to Washington, D.C. on January 6, 2021. It would not be. You would not recommend that either. Okay.

[Tim Wilson]

Nope, not good. Don't give them a reason to say no. That's. That's all there is to it. Like, if, if it doesn't add value and it could give them a reason to be like, you know, if I, if I get a resume that says avid road cyclist, I'm like, oh, I hope this guy like. Or gal like, get out of here. I hate those people anyway.

[Julie Hoyer]

But. But it's interesting. It's like if process and you know who you're actually interviewing with and you can suss some of that out and you have something that's a connection. That's a, that's an arrow you can have in your quiver.

[Tim Wilson]

That's all interview fodder, human interest stuff. And if they say, you know, tell me about yourself, you can throw in there that, you know, you're a family man, family woman, whatever. Opinions vary on that. I still would keep it kind of value oriented, maybe towards the end of an interview, if they say so, you know, tell me about your, your personal life. Like, what do you. What are you into outside of work? You know, then they've opened the door for that. But yeah, that's all interview fodder.

[Julie Hoyer]

Dancing with the hr.

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah.

[Albert Bellamy]

Yeah, but you bring up a good point. What is the. What's the role the resume itself has to play? It's different than the role LinkedIn is playing. It's different than the role that the interview is going to play. And I think it's kind of nice because it can cut away the noise that a lot of us have probably fallen into the trap of thinking, oh, we should include that. And that's like, you're saying, like, it's not useful for the goal of the.

[Tim Wilson]

Resume itself, the metaphor that I love, is we had. There's a standard obstacle course in the Marine Corps, you know, like blogs and. And you have different obstacles. So at the end, there's this high rope to climb, but you have all these things. You have to jump over and walk on one log, and you're gonna fall off. And so there's like. I don't know, there's like 10 elements to it. The. The very first thing is a log that's literally like two feet off the ground, so there's no obstacle at all. The only thing it does is it slows you down so that you're not taking, like, a screaming sprint directly into the first bar, which is like, you have to jump and grab it and pull yourself up and over. So this. The low log is just put your hands on it and you're over. To me, the resume is somewhat akin to that low log. It's just the thing that gets you into the process. And so once you. And it may not be the thing that gets you into the process. I've definitely gotten jobs where my resume was. Hey, do you have a resume? Okay, turn it into hr, because that's a requirement. And that was after I already knew I had the job, because that's internal referral. Somebody is like, we specifically want you to interview. And then sometimes you find out you're the only person that interviewed. And then your resume is just. That's got to go in workday. Because paperwork. Yeah, that's the ideal. But yeah, even in a standard interview process, you're cold applying, you're submitting your resume, they call you, you get a call screen, you get an interview. The resume is just. It's the low log. Just jump up and over, and then you're into the actual process, and then the job is earned face to face in an interview.

[Julie Hoyer]

We should probably mention. We haven't actually said that. We alluded to. You have this kind of side thing of coaching, but there is. Themajordata.com is your. Hey, why don't you let me. Okay.

[Tim Wilson]

Roles, Tim. We have roles.

[Michael Helbling]

But I'm glad you did mention it, Tim. Unfortunately, we do have to wrap up. I feel like we could do like, a whole other hour on this, though, so this is great. And it certainly leaves the door open to future conversations. I hope so.

[Julie Hoyer]

We'll have MO on for an episode where we'll talk about the shortcomings of Canva's resume templates, specifically.

[Tim Wilson]

Absolutely. That's why. Yeah. Well, when. So when you Were talking about. About question hijinks. I was gonna say I didn't squeeze it in, but I was gonna say, hey, we don't have Mo here. I was really looking forward to that. How. And then. And then the long pause as she mentally formulates the question that is my absolute favorite.

[Michael Helbling]

Delightful.

[Tim Wilson]

And, you know, she's just been sitting on it for, like, 10 minutes. Like, I've gotta ask this. Yeah. Shout out to Mo.

[Michael Helbling]

No, this has been a great conversation. And, you know, just a note for next time, Albert. Like, don't feel. Feel afraid to say exactly what you think.

[Tim Wilson]

I'm pretty sure I dropped the only F bomb in the episode. Yeah.

[Michael Helbling]

Yeah. Thank you for holding up the stand.

[Albert Bellamy]

Kept us explicit.

[Julie Hoyer]

We appreciate it.

[Tim Wilson]

Well, you don't have to take off the disclaimer.

[Julie Hoyer]

Yeah, that's right.

[Michael Helbling]

Yeah, that's how that happened one day.

[Julie Hoyer]

Very good.

[Michael Helbling]

We've covered a lot of ground, but I think there's a lot of really useful stuff in there. So, Albert, thank you so much for coming on the show. One thing we do is we go around the horn and share our last call, something that might be of interest to our listeners. Albert, you're our guest. Do you have a last call you'd like to share?

[Tim Wilson]

So this is a book that I have been. If I really enjoy a book, and I mean enjoy it to the point where I'm like, I need this by my bedside. I put these tape flags all over it. If you open it up, you'll notice there's stuff shoved in the pages. There's things written on almost every page. And also my dogs chewed on it. But that's neither here nor there. This is called Reverse the Search. This is by Madeline Mann. If she is very present on LinkedIn, she has, like, hundreds of hours of content on YouTube. This is absolutely my bible right now as far as career search. It's confirmed a ton of things that I was already teaching and putting out there. It's challenged a few things that. That I've had to reevaluate. But, yeah, reverse the search. Madeleine Mann, if you're in the career space, she's a must follow. LinkedIn and YouTube for sure. But, yeah, the book, she doesn't. We're not like friends. We are connections. She doesn't give me anything for the book. But, yeah, every once in a while I find a book like that and I'm like, I gotta reread this, like, as soon as I'm done with it.

[Michael Helbling]

Outstanding. Thank you. All right, Julie, what about you? What's your Last call.

[Albert Bellamy]

Mine is a little left field. Not connected to our topic at all. But I love a good Freakonomics podcast. They are like, me and my husband's go to road trip. We're like, all right, you know, what's the list? What can we choose through? And so the latest one I listened to, it was episode 633, the most powerful people you've never heard of, which, like the title alone hooked me. I was like, oh, I gotta know. And it ends up the whole episode is about commodity traders. And it was so interesting. Never thought of them. They are very powerful and especially back in the day, they. They pulled some strings. They did some. And I found the one guy. Fun fact in there. I won't give it all away. I guess his name was Mark is. Maybe he's still alive. Mark Rich ends up though he helped Jamaica like in the middle of the night and then ended up having a long standing relationship with Jamaica, good and bad. I heard there were ups and downs. But he ended up funding the Olympics team that the movie Cool Runnings was made about. Like he funded that. I just, I love that movie. So that's a fun fact that stuck with me.

[Tim Wilson]

Not.

[Julie Hoyer]

Not a good guy, right?

[Tim Wilson]

I mean, no, yeah, no, no.

[Albert Bellamy]

We're not praising him, but like cool connections, things I didn't know about, things that have affected the world, pop culture, Cool Runnings, like commodity traders didn't know about them. They're this underground world and it kind of got me hooked. And they referred to a book they had the two authors on for this episode and I am tempted to attempt to read it.

[Tim Wilson]

Tempted to attempt.

[Albert Bellamy]

Yeah. So at least listen to that episode.

[Michael Helbling]

So, yeah, I mean, because I actually.

[Julie Hoyer]

Do like the defining of commodities and why, like, why commodities traders can be.

[Michael Helbling]

So, Tim, do you want to do last call behind door number one or your last call behind door number two?

[Albert Bellamy]

There is no door.

[Julie Hoyer]

I'm just going to endorse. Just endorse Julie's last call and just kind of call it. No.

[Tim Wilson]

Never.

[Julie Hoyer]

That would be a first. So I'm going to quickly open door one, which is completely whimsical and had very little thought behind it. But I've definitely become that. Thank goodness it's not road riding, but it's running. So I've become the running guy. My Instagram, I am the casual runner. I'm running a race every month this year. Very annoying. Lots of Instagram stuff makes fun of the running stuff. So I got into it four or five years ago, but kind of inspired by Michelle Kiss Michelle. Kiss Mo's sister. And Lee Eisency's recent presentation at Marketing Analytics Summit about the history of Measure Slack. I created a Strava Measure club. So if you're a Strava user in any sport, it's set up for all sports. [e-mail] strava.com clubs measure. It's a public club. I have no purpose or goal for that. But there were people like Ben Gaines and Jim Ginoglio and Ben Woodard who I was are and Will Reynolds who I was connected with on Strava. And I'm like, this is kind of fun to see who's doing what. So if you're at all interested, if you're a Garmin person who says straw, I'm not that self flagellating. I don't need something telling me all the time that I'm underperforming. So this is just nice little casual group. That was my quick one. My other one will be kind of quick.

[Tim Wilson]

What's your distance?

[Julie Hoyer]

I've run one half marathon and I did not manage to complete it without walking a little bit at the end. So that's my goal for this year, this fall, to try to actually run a complete. Yeah, realize I'm talking to a. Oh, it's.

[Tim Wilson]

It's been a while for me and that kind of distance. I'm a. I'm a shorter distance person.

[Julie Hoyer]

No, but you and your wife have done like, you've done like crazy like adventure race stuff, haven't you?

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah, we just had a Spartan. Yeah.

[Julie Hoyer]

Okay.

[Tim Wilson]

It was a 5k though. It was the, the easiest distance.

[Michael Helbling]

Yeah. Nice last call, Tim. Nice last call. Okay.

[Julie Hoyer]

My other one's going to be a quick win, which is just a. Another extra actual listener of the show. Somebody who I've actually gotten to know through LinkedIn. He met Joe Sutherland somewhere. So I think we connected around analytics the right way. Available in bookstores now. Buy your book. But Joe Domoleski, he's been working, I think, on his master's in analytics. He runs an agency, but he puts up posts and the one that I thought was pretty interesting or they're all interesting, but he did a linear regression versus XGBoost which predicts sales better using R. And it is just a simple. He was like, I want to understand the differences between these. And he kind of does. These are pros and cons. Here's he links to his GitHub repo. It's NR. It's very. It's a lengthy read, but a very Interesting read. And one like, I'm always thinking, kindred spirit, somebody who's like, I just want to try that out so I'll understand it better for myself. And then plus one, he actually sort of wrote it up so I didn't have to go through and actually explore it. I could follow it and sort of see it. And it was kind of what I expected, but it was pretty interesting. So, yeah, that's it. I got a couple more, but I'll, you know, save them for another time. What about you, Michael? What's your last call?

[Michael Helbling]

Ah, it's. It doesn't matter.

[Tim Wilson]

Wow.

[Michael Helbling]

Thanks so much for asking, Tim. Sometimes I'm tempted to do mine before yours, but it's okay. No, actually, well, sort of relevant.

[Tim Wilson]

Today's.

[Michael Helbling]

Today's topic. Through the years, I found attending conferences and participating them have been really helpful in networking and building my network. That can lead to jobs and things that. That I recently came across a conference that's already happened for 2025, but I'm going to mention anyway, because they put all the talks out on their YouTube channel, which is. It's called Data Council, and I think it was out in Oakland this year. It just happened a couple months ago. But if you go to their website, which we'll have in our show notes, you can see all the talks on YouTube and it looks like a great conference in terms of speaker quality, things like that. And I'm always kind of keeping my eye open for good conferences in our industry. So in addition to, obviously, Measure Cam Chicago this September, just throwing that out there for Val. And I'll be there, too. And we will be there. Data Council just had theirs and their Talks are on YouTube, so you can check them out as well. That might be a good conference to check into as you go through your career. All right. I'm sure you've been listening and you've been intrigued, you've been thoughtful, you've been inspired. So what, how do you reach out? Well, it's really easy and we would like to hear from you. Go to the measureslack chat group or LinkedIn and. Or email us at contactalyticshour IO and Albert, people can find you probably on LinkedIn pretty easily, I would imagine.

[Tim Wilson]

Absolutely.

[Michael Helbling]

With your content. So just go search for Albert Bellamy on LinkedIn. You also have a website, I think, called themajordata.com the. The majordata.com. see, Tim, I was getting to it. And so people could find you there as well. And so there's a number of different services and cohorts and different things that you run through with people that I think could be very valuable to some of our listeners. So definitely worth checking out. I think everyone can kind of get a taste for kind of some of the things that might go on in those kinds of situations. And, you know, that's something that probably be a great resource to check out sometime. So thank you again, Albert, so much for coming on the show. We loved having you. This is really good.

[Tim Wilson]

Thanks for having me.

[Michael Helbling]

And now I'm like, I need to. I need to work on my listing profile.

[Julie Hoyer]

I guess it's been years.

[Michael Helbling]

So we want to say thank you. And of course, as we go through this process, we want to encourage our listeners, if you enjoy the show, put a review out. We appreciate seeing you review the show, and it helps us algorithmically in this world of AIs and machine learning to get promoted on the various channels wherever you listen. So thanks for doing that, too. All right, Well, I know no matter where you are in your career, my two co hosts would agree with me, Tim and Julie, that whether you're looking for a job, whether you're trying to find a new job, or whether you're happy in your current one, keep analyzing.

[Tim Wilson]

Thanks for listening. Let's keep the conversation going with your comments, suggestions, question and questions on Twitter @analyticshour, on the [e-mail], our LinkedIn group and the Measure Chat Slack group. Music for the podcast by Josh Crowhurst. So smart guys wanted to fit in, so they made up a term called analytics. Analytics don't work. Do the analytics say, go for it no matter who's going for it. So if you and I were on the field, the analytics say, go for it. It's the stupidest, laziest, lamest thing I've ever heard for reasoning in competition.

[Albert Bellamy]

Albert, I'm curious. Do you usually listen to the end.

[Tim Wilson]

To the Rock Flag? As a matter of fact, I had to look it up because I'm not an. I'm not an always sunny guy. And so, yeah, I think. I think I actually asked him one time in a LinkedIn message, like, what is the Rock Flag thing? And he just sent me the link to the video. Do you guys know what. Why I found the podcast?

[Michael Helbling]

No, beyond what you said.

[Tim Wilson]

So think about what I. So what I was doing at Intellect. Think about your least favorite marketing analytics topic. I don't know. I'm putting you on the spot here.

[Albert Bellamy]

Attribution.

[Julie Hoyer]

Attribution, yeah.

[Tim Wilson]

That's what I was doing at Analytics. So I went searching for like, is anybody talking about this stuff? Super valuable. And that's why I originally became a fan. So it's funny that every episode you were like, oh, God, do we have to talk about this crappy? I was like, I get it, I get it.

[Michael Helbling]

I have a set of rules. Which probably should not be talked about on a podcast.

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah, I definitely have. Yeah.

[Albert Bellamy]

I think there's a ghost that messes with the tiles, but we figured that.

[Tim Wilson]

Is the most likely answer.

[Albert Bellamy]

So. Yeah, at this point, I swear.

[Julie Hoyer]

Yeah, that guy wound up with a full size digital key billboard outside.

[Michael Helbling]

We put a billboard up in his home lands in.

[Julie Hoyer]

In Dodgeville, Wisconsin, that said stew for a cat sheriff. Yeah.

[Michael Helbling]

The best part about that prank was then there was a Facebook group for that part of that area where people were just freaking out, like, what is its billboard for? What is it?

[Tim Wilson]

Yeah.

[Michael Helbling]

And the best comment was no one would just waste money out of random billboard. We're like, oh, yes, we.

[Tim Wilson]

Oh, yes. Yeah.

[Michael Helbling]

All right, let's get going.

[Julie Hoyer]

Rock flag and limit the middle bullets. Hoorah.

[Tim Wilson]

That was great.