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- [00:00]
A
Ever wondered why the Romans were defeated in the Teutoburg Forest? What secrets lie buried in prehistoric Ireland? Or what made Alexander truly great? With a subscription to History Hit, you can explore our ancient past alongside the world's leading historians and archaeologists. You'll also unlock hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a brand new release every single week covering everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe Hey, I hope you're doing well. We're doing all right here. We are getting ready for our tour to Australia in early August. Things are ramping up. Quick. Really excited to get over there. My first time in Australia for a good decade or so. And it's really exciting to see that tickets are selling. So we've got the shows lined up, we've got the topics, the labors of Hercules and also the myth, the story of Romulus and Remus. And then delving into what's the historical basis potentially for these famous mythological stories of ancient Greece and Rome. Really hope to see you there if you're in either Australia or New Zealand. But back to today's episode. We are delving into the archive to explore the story of one of the greatest educational buildings ever constructed, the Library of Alexandria. This great center of learning, particularly during the Hellenistic period. So the time when you have these Greek pharaohs, a Greco Macedonian dynasty ruling over Egypt, the dynasty of the famous Cleopatra, and so many others. We recorded this episode with Dr. Islam Issa, a professor at Birmingham City University, a really lovely guy. We did this interview in person in a studio in London just over two years ago now. It is still one of my favorite episodes of all time and I know it was very, very popular with you. So delighted that we have chosen this episode. Re release today, enjoy. The Library of Alexandria, one of those amazing complexes of the ancient Mediterranean world. More than 2,000 years ago, this was one of the most celebrated buildings of ancient Alexandria, filled with all sorts of literature that helped define this city as one of the greatest centers of knowledge and culture in the Mediterranean. So what's the story behind this great building? Why did Alexandria's rulers, the Ptolemies, become obsessed and fascinated with adding to its collection? And of course, did it really burn down in a massive fire caused by none other than Julius Caesar? How much information was lost? Well, listen on, there are a lot of myths to bust now. Our guest today is Dr. Islam Issa from Birmingham City University. Islam, he came down to London to do this interview in person in a studio. I had my Ptolemy shirt to hand and we had A lot of fun recording this chat. I really do hope you enjoy. And here's Islam. Islam, it is wonderful to have you on the podcast.
- [03:12]
B
I'm really happy to be here and I'm even happier with your T shirt.
- [03:15]
A
Of course, we're talking about Hellenistic history and the city of Alexandria. Of course, we cannot not mention the one and only Ptolemy I, but we're talking about the Great Library. And I know it's not one of the official wonders, but this feels like one of those incredible monumental pieces of architecture from the Greco Roman world.
- [03:32]
B
Yeah, I mean, one of the issues is we don't know much about how it would have looked. We have to assume it was grand. We have to assume that it had these colonnades and statues and marbled pillars. But at the same time, the lighthouse, which was one of the ancient wonders of the world, was also, as far as I'm concerned, symbolic of the light that was emanating from the city as a result of the knowledge that was gathered and disseminated from the Great Library.
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A
It's interesting how you can connect those two great pillars of ancient Alexandria. So let's focus on the library and set the scene, first of all, with the background. I mean, when are we talking with the library's initial construction? What century? What's the context?
- [04:17]
B
Context is Alexander the Great arriving actually at Pharos, which is the little island that's uninhabited off the Mediterranean coast, where he founds Alexandria. That's the mid 4th century BC, and legend has it, and this is an important founding myth for Alexandrians, that he gets down on his knees in excitement and ecstasy and scribbles a plan for the city on the sand. And among the things that he allegedly scribbles on the sand, so we've got all the, you know, the square market, temples, the royal palace. We also have a shrine to the Muses. It's a nice little phrase, isn't it? And the shrine to the Muses is essentially what the library is. I mean, we get the term museum from it later. But the successors of Alexander, who is Ptolemy I, he was a friend in general of Alexander's, is the one who then takes that vision that Alexander had, allegedly, which is this shrine to the Muses, and creates this library complex or museum complex. So it has this library where they gather the books, and adjacent to it in this complex is the museum where they. Basically a research centre where they do the research and the translation and that kind of thing. I'd say the idea for the library is part of Alexandria's founding vision in the sense that as far as I'm concerned, there are two radical visions about how to create a city here, and the Library is embedded in that. So we might think ordinarily of a city being created as a result of a war or a geographical division. Alexandria, that's not the case. It's pretty empty. There's just scattered fishing villages. When Alexander arrives there in the mid 4th century BC and he creates a city from scratch, it's not organically created, it's an idea. And there were two ideas here and we'll see how this links to the Library. The first idea was gather people from all around the region in this strategic spot at the intersection of Africa, Asia and Europe and you can create an economic hub. That's why he invites Greeks and Macedonians and Jews. There's even evidence of people coming from India, Levantines and so on. So gather these people, give them relative freedom, freedom of worship and so on, and they can turn this place into an economic and trading hub. The second vision is that knowledge equals power. It's that if you gather the world's knowledge and then you also guard it, disseminate it, then you will have soft power. That's essentially the idea. So the Library from the very outset is part of the Alexandrian vision, but it's also a state endeavour. It's also got political and economic purposes.
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A
What I also find really interesting there is how you highlight that the Library is founded very near the start of Alexandria's existence. And that's so different to some of the other great monumental pieces of architecture in the ancient world, isn't it? Like the Pantheon or the Colosseum in Rome, created hundreds of years after Rome was first founded. The, I mean, the Parthenon in Athens, for instance. But the library, as you say, that's, it's almost quite unique that it has its, you know, it's aligned with the very, very early stages of Alexandria as a city.
- [07:29]
B
That's right. Alexander doesn't see a single building go up in the city. He's over excited and rushes off to his next adventure. But the city begins to be built and then within a few years, Alexander has died. There's a real rush for power and Ptolemy I takes a nice slice of the cake, which is Egypt. Ptolemy manages to create a kind of cult around Alexandria to make it his capital relatively quickly. One way of doing so was hijacking the tomb of Alexander the Great and building a mausoleum in the city. So you have that kind of cult. He also created an amalgamated Greco, Egyptian God in Serapis, so that both the Greeks and Egyptians had a common God and he was the divine protector of Alexandria, Serapis. So it's all very well planned and that really paves the way for the next project, which is the library. And as you say, it's just within a couple of decades of the city's founding.
- [08:25]
A
Absolutely. Ptolemy, very, very cunning figure as you highlighted, nicking the corpse of Alexander the Great and so on, setting Alexandria as his new capital. But come on then, who is this figure that Ptolemy instructs for this next great building project, which is the library?
- [08:42]
B
Well, his name is Demetrius and Demetrius is a governor in Athens for some time. So Alexander's successors did the opposite of what Alexander wanted in terms of fighting for power. One of those was Cassander. Cassander trusts Demetrius, who's only in his early 30s, to be governor of Athens. Cassander sort of got the Macedonian Macedon empire, if you like. And Demetrius has been taught in the Aristotelian school, possibly by Aristotle, but certainly by Aristotle's successor. That's important because Philip, Alexander the Great's father, had hired Aristotle to teach Alexander. So, I mean, this is also part of the greatness of the city, if you like, that the founder and the creator of the city, Alexander and then Ptolemy were both taught by Aristotle and Aristotle is taught by Plato and Plato is taught by Socrates. I mean, that's a great line, isn't it? So it makes sense theoretically for Alexandria to be a knowledge capital. So Demetrius is taught in the Aristotelian school. Aristotle was actually a spy for Alexander and his father as well. So there was tension between the Athenians and the Macedons and Aristotle's on the Macedonian rather than Athenian side. So once Demetrius is made governor of Athens, he knows where his loyalties lie, which is to Macedon and to the Aristotelian school. He's disliked by many of the Athenian people, he's said, probably an exaggeration, but he's said to have created 360 statues of himself around the city. And then around 307 BC, Athens changes hands and they turn these statues into urinals. They thought he was wasting their money, that he was excessively spending on drinking and women and so on. But he did do some quite good things in Athens, like a census. So he managed the census there and he did some legal reforms as well. Those are things that attracted Ptolemy. But the reason Demetrius has to leave Athens is because he's going to get killed. And where better than Alexandria, a place that's in its vision is Supposed to be a liberal place where even over history, right Until World War II, people are fleeing there because of its relative freedoms. And he ends up in Alexandria. Ptolemy sees this as a great opportunity because he can tutor his son, Ptolemy ii. He can create some legal reforms there, help him convict a census, offer him counsel. And there's a story where Demetrius tells Ptolemy that books are your best friend, really, because they'll tell you things, how they are. They're not the yes men that are around, royalty that hide the truth from you and so on. A book will never do that. And that might be an indication of why Ptolemy entrusted him with this task of creating a library.
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A
So Ptolemy entrusts Demetrius with this great task of knowledge gathering. How does he go about gathering these books to create this library?
- [11:43]
B
The Letter of Aristeas, which is the earliest mention of the library, 2nd century BC by a Jewish scholar who worked in the library. I mean, it's got a really interesting detail. It says that Demetrius was given substantial budget. And the quote is to gather all the books in the world. That's quite the job description.
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A
That's a big task.
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B
So Demetrius has to gather all the books in the world, and so he has to use his contacts initially from the Aristotelian schools, from Athens and the Hellenistic world, and he has to just bring as many books as he can into the city. Demetrius probably bought in, you know, a couple of hundred thousand scrolls in the early years of the library. But it's not a selective task at this stage. All the books in the world is highly unselective, and it's open to problems as well.
- [12:35]
A
But job description, do we know much about how those pieces of literature and information are then kept in Alexandria?
- [12:43]
B
Initially, they would have just been taken as they are. I think some of them would have been copies if they had to be borrowed and returned. Alexandria reaches a stage, it's almost obsessive, where it no longer matters that people want their books back. By the time of Ptolemy iii, they borrow the books of the. Well, borrow the books of the Greek tragedians from Athens. And these are like prized possessions. And they give a sort of deposit, which in modern money is about £300,000, and then they copy the books, but return the copies to Athens and keep the originals. So at the start, it wasn't very selective, so it didn't really matter whether they were copies or originals. Later on, they begin to realize that an original is worth more. They begin to realize that some writers are worth more than others as well.
- [13:35]
A
So how does Demetrius fare In this very early stage of the library story, as he's gathering these first scrolls, like
- [13:41]
B
I said, he's offering counsel to Ptolemy the first and Ptolemy I. We have sort of records of reports to Ptolemy and letters from Ptolemy where he says, how's the book gathering going? How many books do we have? And he replies, you know, we furnish the library with this many books, that many books. And I might have mentioned that the library's in the royal quarter. So Alexander split into quarters. The royal quarter is on the harbour. The library is within the royal quarter because it's such a state endeavor, because so much money's been put into it, but also because the librarian, or beginning from Demetrius, but the librarians will then double as the royal tutors as well for the prince and princess. So he's in direct contact, he's almost like a ministerial position. He's in direct contact with Ptolemy in the early years.
- [14:27]
A
And so how does it end for Demetrius, however? I mean, it looks all good at the moment. He's got the ear of Ptolemy I, but I've got a feeling, cause it happens so often in Hellenistic courts that these prominent figures, they aren't prominent for very long and can easily fall from grace.
- [14:46]
B
Yeah, in many ways he has forgotten Demetrius. And the story really is that Ptolemy I was trying to set his son up. I mean, they were all called Ptolemy. They're not very inventive with the names Ptolemy's and Cleopatras. But Ptolemy II is being set up to co rule towards the end of Ptolemy I's life. Ptolemy I has two sons who, both of whom could be the next king. Demetrius appears to support the wrong son in that sort of succession debate. And that's not appreciated by Ptolemy I, who exiles him southwards. I would assume they exiled him somewhere relatively nice with a comfortable pension. I don't assume that it was, you know, a horrible exile. But a few years later he dies of a snake bite on his right wrist. And that's where we can't be sure whether this was, you know, an accident, a suicide or perhaps an assassination, which probably, if we had to guess, would be Ptolemy II now wielding more power and unappreciative that Demetrius didn't support him during the succession debate.
- [15:56]
A
So we're now in the third century bc. Ptolemy I's reign is done and dusted and Demetrius is out of the way. But he's laid the foundations for the library and what it will become as we get to the reign of the next Ptolemies like Ptolemy ii. How does the book gathering Process, how does it pick up the pace?
- [16:15]
B
Well, now they have agents doing the work rather than, you know, single people like Demetrius. So they send these agents all around the region trying to gather any book and they're giving quite a budget to do so. And at the start it's not selective. Again, they just gather whatever they can and return with it. As the decades pass, they begin to be given instruction to gather originals because the copies could be forgeries and so on. So that's one way of doing it. Another way is actually writing to the other heads of state. So Ptolemy the Third especially wrote far and wide to different rulers, asking them to send any books. And sometimes that would be a decision based on foreign relations. Let's say, should we keep the book, should we copy it? It depends on how much or how little you can afford to damage your foreign relations at that stage. So those are some of the ways of doing it. They also introduced some really interesting policies. So if you dock on a ship, docks into Alexandria's harbour, it's searched, but not for contraband, it searched for books. If any book is found, it's confiscated. And when it's confiscated, it's taken rapidly to the library where an expert will look at it, determine whether it's valuable. For the large part, they'd make a copy, but they'd send the copy back to the ship and keep the original. And often they'd give some monetary compensation as well to the owner of the book. So there were those kinds of policies. You couldn't take a book out of the city as well, so people did want souvenirs from the library city. But these would be pre approved books that were copies, obviously. And you know, I can imagine that they'd be searched on their way out to check which books they've taken and whether they're books they're allowed to leave the city with really quickly.
- [18:12]
A
Tighten the rules around all that, don't they? It's absolutely astonishing and I love that idea of Ptolemaic agents scouring the known world, you know, the Hellenistic world after Alexander the Great, maybe going as far as, I don't know, maybe the Indus river valley or Bactria or Thrace or maybe even further into the Western Mediterranean, looking for copies of books to add to this ever growing library. I mean, does that also emphasize the might, the power of the Ptolemies, that they are able to oversee such a huge web of agents finding these books?
- [18:43]
B
In many ways, libraries and books are a microcosm or they're symbolic of the government. So where you see library cuts, for example. You know that there's something happening in that particular government, that their priorities are different or they're in a sort of more austere situation. Far from the case for the Ptolemies. Their power is increasing. As their power increases, they want more books. And books become a more valuable commodity as well. To the extent that districts in Alexandria begin to change ones that previously sold different things, artisans and merchants and so on, begin to realize that books are a valuable commodity. Books are right up there at that time, probably with grain and oil. So it is a valuable commodity at that stage. And there's stalls and stalls of books and people trying, of course, to benefit from the obsession.
- [19:36]
A
Absolutely. An obsession. And he said up there with olive oil and stuff like that. Isn't it so interesting? I mean, you mentioned the value and how valuable some of these books are, and you kind of hinted it earlier. But did the Ptolemies see certain pieces of literature as certain works being more valuable than others?
- [19:51]
B
Well, yes. I mean, there are two sort of founding godfathers or something of the city.
- [19:57]
A
Love it.
- [19:58]
B
I wouldn't say Alexander and Ptolemy. I think they're like the founders. But the ones I'm thinking are Aristotle, because Aristotle teaches Alexander and Ptolemy has a huge influence on them. But also because Aristotle's idea of how to create a city is taken into account. So Aristotle loved Hippodamus the architect, and the way that the city set up in terms of the grid system until today, the promenade facing in a particular direction so that it can have a good sea breeze. Right. That's all stuff that Aristotle influenced, on top of the idea that he influenced Alexander and Ptolemy into seeking knowledge and gathering knowledge. So books by Aristotle. And then the other side is Homer. Now, Homer's part of the founding myth of Alexandria in that Alexander is taught Homer by Aristotle. Alexander, romances and all these kinds of legendary texts tell us that Alexander loved Homer's literature and actually styled himself on Achilles. So when he arrives at the shore and founds Alexandria, he's got his locks like Achilles, the Homeric hero. So Alexander is taught Homer, but he is also gifted a copy of. Of Homer's poetry. I say poetry. At this time, I don't think it would have been seen as just poetry. It would have been seen as history and to some extent, as theology, because there's an absence of like, a single scripture. So he is gifted an annotated copy of Homer by Aristotle. He puts it in a golden casket that he finds in Persia, and he puts it under his pillow. We're told when he goes to sleep next to his dagger. So Homer comes to Alexander in a dream, or a venerable bearded man does. But he narrates some lines from Homer about Pharos, this island where loud the billows roar on the Egyptian shore, where loud the billows roar. And Plutarch writes that Alexander gets up startled and rushes to Pharos. Pharos is the little island which he connects with a causeway to the Mediterranean coast to create Alexandria. It's where the lighthouse once stood, the and where the citadel stands today. And so Homer is an integral part of the Alexandrian founding myth and it subverts our ideas of literature and cities and spaces. So for example, Shakespeare we associate with Stratford upon Avon because he's from there, right? Alexandria we associate with Homer because Homer instigated the creation of Alexandria. So that was a long way of saying Aristotle and Homer are the key texts that the Alexandrians want to have in the library.
- [22:52]
A
And is it also important to highlight because we've been focusing on bit on like the Greek literature that they are wanting to bring into their library in Alexandria. But of course, as you highlighted, that open ended mission of Demetrius and the following Ptolemies is to get books from all across the world. So can we imagine that they are not just getting Greek texts, they're looking at Mesopotamian texts, Jewish texts and so on.
- [23:14]
B
They are, I mean it's an institution of no one religion and no one language. It does, I think, contain the entire corpse of Greek literature at some stage and the translation activities into Greek. But they hire or get Egyptian priests to write about Egyptian religion, for example, in Greek as well. They translate the Zoroastrian texts there, they translate the Hebrew Bible there. And what's even more fascinating about Alexandria is that because it's bringing all these diverse people together, they need a common language. So we begin to get common Greek. It's a kind of Alexandrian dialect of Greek, probably the kind of Greek Jesus would have spoke. Right. So they translate into Alexandrian Greek. That was a really momentous moment, translating the Hebrew Bible into Alexandrian Greek because by then you've got second, third generations of Jews who no longer speak Hebrew, who are able to understand the text in their own language. But again, it's not all like an idealistic endeavour. It's also because now the Jews of the city have no excuse but to integrate. Right? You're learning the Tragedians and Homer and Aristotle at school and you can have your Bible in your native Alexandrian Greek language. So you've no Excuse but to integrate into this kind of Alexandrian way of life, which I think it was neither Hellenistic nor Egyptian, but a kind of combination.
- [24:46]
A
It is such an incredible thought to think that maybe you could enter this building and on one shelf or two there would be copies of, let's say, Aeschylus, and then the next shelf you've got is a Greek translation of the Bible or maybe another Greek translation of something like the Epic of Gilgamesh too, which is absolutely amazing just to potentially think about. I must ask, though, because we were talking earlier about the value, the great value that these books gain. How, and I love this part, How. How does this lead to a black market of books emerging?
- [25:17]
B
We've mentioned the way in which books become a commodity and in which even the landscape of the city changes because people want to benefit from this commodity. So if you're gathering all the books in the world, anyone who can write anything half decent is going to write something because you know that they're not being selective, they'll buy it. So that's one thing that happens, is people start writing. If you can write, you write. Now the issue is where people then begin to write forgeries. So writing forgeries of, for example, something by Aristotle or some other philosopher could be easy to spot. So what do they do? They say, we heard him speak. So they don't claim that they are the philosopher writing it. They say, well, we heard this philosopher speaking and we wrote this while they were speaking. This is what they said. So it's authored by me, but I'm kind of quoting everything the philosopher said. So you begin to have these kind of fakes, if you like, and then people trying to pretend that they've got original copies when they're actually forgeries. You also have people taking, you know, agents, maybe corrupt agents, taking things out of the library to scribes to copy or to make versions that look like they're original. You have people selling books to one another, hoping that they can make a profit from selling it to the library. So if it costs, you know, one talent or whatever, and I sell it to you for two, then you might be able to sell it to the library for five, and so on. So it creates that kind of underground activity as well. So it's a real mess, actually.
- [26:53]
A
It's a real mess. I mean, do we know how they tried to untangle it? Or is this just something that they have to live with and they have to hire staff almost, who's main role perhaps was to try and identify what's the real scrolls and what are the forgeries?
- [27:05]
B
Yeah, I mean, there are more staff hired. You know, the library begins to have a whole load of staff, beginning with people who take the books from the harbour. Stockists, bookbinders, copyists. They would have killed the scribes. Translators, obviously, were in house as well. So you have a whole load of staff there as well. But also paying the library staff handsome amounts of money so that they don't get bribed was one way of doing it. And actually, some of the population were quite upset at how much scholars and library staff, especially the higher up ones, would be getting. The best example being the librarian who was on a ridiculously high salary and exempt from tax and so on. There was an aspect of trying to ensure that bribery didn't take place.
- [27:52]
A
It sounds quite weird to say today, but these first librarians of this library, they almost kind of became celebrities.
- [27:58]
B
Yeah, I mean, there was a school exercise from early Alexandria found only in 1914, so, you know, in the last century or so. And it has a school exercise where they're testing the children on the names of the first six Alexandrian librarians. So they were celebrities and you have to learn about them in school as well. But they also did some really interesting things to the library. You know, they introduced cataloguing. So the second librarian introduced cataloguing with a huge scroll that had all the different types of books. So he would have had medicine alone, he would have had literature and then he had subgenres of literature. They even had a category called miscellaneous where you'd find the cookbook. So they did introduce really important practices, library practices. They put a clay tag on the scrolls so you don't have to unfurl the scroll to know what's in it. That would have the title and the author, but also where the author's from. Then the librarians then introduced alphabetization, which hadn't been used in that way before, so you'd go straight to H if you want Homer. But they only introduced alphabetization of the first letter, so Homer could come before somebody who starts with ha. But, yeah, they introduced alphabetization as well. So they did quite a few important things in the early years.
- [29:14]
A
Of course, when doing all of this cataloguing and getting all of these books and writing it down and creating these scrolls. You need a lot of material for that, don't you? We, of course, have like A4 paper today, and it's easy, we got printers. But I'd like to go on a quick tangent and talk about this material of papyrus, because what is this and why is it so important for the whole library project.
- [29:36]
B
Well, I mean, first and foremost, it's a plant that grows in abundance in Egypt, so that's very useful. And it's a plant that's used for all sorts of things. So for centuries, the ancient Egyptians used papyrus to make household products, houses, boats, they even eat papyrus stalks. So papyrus is a really important plant for the Egyptians and it's seen as a kind of blessing from the gods. It's linked to the Nile. You know, it grows because it's in close proximity to the Nile, which is just seen as, you know, something really important and holy to the Egyptians. Papyrus is also the best material to write on in that period worldwide. So papyrus is also exported and it's the material that's used for books not just in Egypt, but elsewhere as well. And that's what leads to some problems, let's say, with the idea that papyrus is exported. And in the early second century there's an embargo on export of papyrus out of Egypt by the Ptolemies. In order to stop rival libraries from gathering books and creating books, they almost
- [30:43]
A
monopolised the use of papyrus. And I mean, so were there rival libraries in the Greco Roman world or even further that did try and rival Alexandria's prominence?
- [30:53]
B
I mean, they're called rival libraries, but I don't think they rival. I mean, we know from the second librarians quoted as saying that there's half a million scrolls in Alexandria's library, probably reached a million scrolls. I think Pergamon would have been the rival libraries and modern day Turkey would have had maybe 200,000 scrolls. So, yeah, it's a rival potentially. And they're the ones that are most affected by the embargo on the papyrus. But in Pergamon, what they end up doing is using animal hides and that's where we get the parchment.
- [31:43]
A
It is quite interesting because of course Pergamum also becomes this attilid center, another these great intellectual educational centers of the Hellenistic world. And does that therefore go hand in hand with Alexandria? Is one of the reasons why Alexandria gains this status as being an intellectual hub of the Mediterranean throughout the Hellenistic period. Do you think one of the main reasons why is because of this everlasting mission for so many of the rulers to get more and more books to make sure that this library remains the great library, the biggest in the known world?
- [32:16]
B
Well, I don't think it would have been the capital of knowledge without the museum adjacent to it, which is where the research happened and where more books were written. But you see, you Wouldn't get these scholars coming to the place unless they were books. So it's a kind of cyclical process. So there's books, so the scholars are attracted because they can come and use them. The scholars are actually given sort of tenure, like endless contract. They're given accommodation, free food, tax exempt stipend, which annoys some of the local population, actually, who are heavily taxed and don't think they're getting paid enough. But these scholars come in numbers to Alexandria, do the research, read the books, invent, philosophize, debate. And all of this is happening in like the Library complex. And I think that's what makes it a knowledge capital. Gathering knowledge and being the guardians of knowledge is seemingly not quite enough. You also have to, if you really want soft power, you also have to create knowledge and disseminate knowledge on your terms. I say on your terms. I mean, the museum and the research centre was like the library. It didn't really have one school. The Alexandrian school was very liberal, like it was whatever you want. And because there was a lack of democracy as well in Alexandria, which actually worked in their favor. So in Athens you could get evicted on grounds of impiety if you were voted out, you know, they'd vote on oyster shells. And actually the lack of democracy in Alexandria was useful because nobody could vote to evict anyone from, from the city on grounds of impiety and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So essentially the scholars were able to kind of do their own thing. But some people. There was a skeptical poet at the time who said that, you know, that it's not the shrine of Muses, it's the cage of Muses, that they're there and they have to sort of toe the line of the Ptolemy. So as the Ptolemaic dynasty advances, we could say that the Library becomes a little bit more political, bluntly political and freedoms do start to decline.
- [34:14]
A
Quite interesting trying to be in the shoes of one of those scholars, because I'm trying to think of like an ancient Hellenistic book loan from the Great Library, but because that museum was right next to the library and as you hinted at there, sometimes they, they're almost trapped to do their work there. It wasn't the case of you able to take a scroll or a book out as well, further than the nearby museum. Was it the Attic? All of that research, all of that information, it has to stay locked within this royal quarter of Alexandria.
- [34:42]
B
Yeah, we'd have to assume. So we'd have to assume that it wasn't a lending Library as much as it was a reference library, one in which you could read while you were there, perhaps read when you were in the complex of the museum complex, but not take the book any further than that. And actually, I'd go as far as saying some of the scholars probably had their books confiscated when they arrived, so they probably had to be careful about what books they bring with them. Unless, of course, they wanted to deposit them in the library as well.
- [35:07]
A
Of course, as the Hellenistic period progresses, you get the rise of Rome and Ptolemaic power. Once a big superpower in the eastern Mediterranean world, it does start to decline, and its influence over neighboring peoples and in the Mediterranean declines too. How does this affect the pull and the importance of the library of Alexandria as we get to the time of the later Ptolemies, let's say the second and first centuries B.C.
- [35:35]
B
as I mentioned, there's an element of politicizing the library. And also Alexandrians have a habit if they're rebelling by this stage, so if they don't like a leader, they make that known. And also with the rise of the library, there was a rise in poetry. So they wrote satirical poetry about. About their leaders and so on. And the Ptolemies also, I mean, the Ptolemies did lots of great things, but they also did a lot of incest that leads to all sorts of troubles because it's not normal for the local population. And, you know, that's for the gods. It's not for humans, for brothers and sisters to marry. But also it means there's a lot of rivalries within the Ptolemaic dynasty, and people have to pick sides. The Jews would have picked a side. The Egyptians would have picked a side. The Greeks would have picked a side. So there's a lot of that kind of tension with that rising tension and kind of disappointment in their government. You know, Ptolemy, the first and second and third really understood the people, festivals, all that kind of thing. Freedoms get reduced because the Ptolemies fear that people will turn against them, and so scholarly freedoms reduce. So some of the scholars begin to leave the city and head to Athens. Rome is rising, where they think they'll have a better chance of philosophizing and inventing. So there's that aspect to it. There's also the aspect of the library representing a kind of high office. And so as a result, by the time we get to Ptolemy viii, Ptolemy VIII hires a military man as his librarian who probably knew next to nothing about books and about scholarly work. He's a spearman. So he hires Spearman as the librarian and he's followed by Ptolemy ix, who hires one of his political allies as the librarian. So it loses that kind of role that it had in the past, where it was really a scholarly endeavour.
- [37:21]
A
The last major thing, of course, I'd love to ask you about the library. You know what I'm going to say. It's got to be its destruction. How does it all come crashing down, quite literally for the library of Alexandria?
- [37:32]
B
I'd say it's not the most sensationalist answer, but it's a steady decline. There is a steady decline. I think we can pinpoint moments where it begins to, you know, the beginning of the end, if you like. I think certainly those kinds of political motives that I. That I've mentioned already, and scholars leaving 1st century BC, we certainly know that Julius Caesar set fire to Alexandria. Plutarch writes that he destroyed the library. Caesar writes his own autobiographies, you know, all in the third person, where he says, you know, I had to set fire to the harbour. So I think they set fire to the harbor and it may have damaged the library to some extent, but not destroyed it. I think it would have destroyed the sister libraries. So there were lots of sister libraries because the overstocking overflowed. Overflowed, yeah. So there'd been sister libraries, including in the Serapeum, that temple, and there would have been stockrooms around the harbour that had books in them. Some of the historians say Cassius Dio, and so they say hundreds of thousands of books were burnt by Caesar. I think it damaged the library but didn't necessarily destroy it. And one of the reasons I think so is because we're constantly told that Antony gifts Cleopatra books as well, so for the library. And Cleopatra, as she travels to Rome, is asked constantly about bringing books with her. So I think that the library has that kind of. It's the beginning of the end, if you like, or it's a symbolic moment when Caesar's army sets fire to the city. We know as time passes, there are reports from people who go, who say that the shelves are empty after that, you know, saying the shelves of remedy suggests that the library is still there, but many of the books have been taken by the scholars thereafter. We have a couple of important moments in Alexandrian history, like Caracalla, the emperor, coming in to the city, and we know that he destroyed the Aristotelian libraries because he thought that Aristotle had poisoned Alexander and he loved Alexander, so there's that. Then Aurelian, the emperor, also burns the Royal Quarter to the ground. And we know that the library was in the Royal Quarter. We're saying, you know, second, third, fourth century, it's a steady decline. And then we have earthquakes, and then we just have changed priorities as well. The Romans completely changed the priorities of the city, and then we don't really have a very clear mention of it. You know, by the time the Muslims arrive in the 7th century, the description, you know, that the letter from the commander to the Caliph is talking more about bath houses and population than it is talking about anything to do with books.
- [39:55]
A
There you go. Kind of like the tomb of Alexander the Great. It just kind of fades away from the sources after a period of time. And it's also quite interesting because in my mind, I had the idea that a great fire and it's completely destroyed. Because you popularly see today, sometimes on social media, there'll be an account which says, like, you know, some 90% or even something more than 90% of ancient literature was lost when the great Library of Alexandria fell down or came crashing down, and then saying, you know, how advanced we could have been now if we had all that literature surviving. Does that feel a bit, you know, incorrect and hyperbole and exaggeration, then when you examine the evidence more closely, and it seems that this tradition of books does last longer than people like Caesar.
- [40:35]
B
I think the books would have been taken by the scholars as they left. They would have been lost. Some would have been burnt. So I do think that some of the greatest, say, Western philosophers, yeah, we probably have lost a huge amount of their work. Maybe we have half of their work surviving or something. But I'd say that the idea that it just suddenly burnt down and that all the books were lost in one go is probably where it is a bit more hyperbolic.
- [41:01]
A
Well, there we go. Islam, on that note, you have written a book which includes the story of the Library of Alexandria, but so much more the wider city.
- [41:09]
B
It is called Alexandria, the City that changed the world.
- [41:12]
A
And it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
- [41:16]
B
Thanks for having me.
- [41:21]
A
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Islam Issa talking through the story of the Library of Alexandria, one of the greatest educational buildings ever built in ancient history. What a story behind it. Islam. It was so wonderful to get him down to London and interview him in person. All about it as well. A couple of episodes that you might also like to listen to, which are linked to the story of the Library Alexandria. We have done an episode in the past all about one of the wonders of the ancient world, the wonder that was in Alexandria. And that is the the story of the Pharos, the Lighthouse. But we've also done an episode on the man who is very closely aligned with the creation of Alexandria, with making it the super city that it ultimately became for the Ptolemies. And this man is none other than the founder of the Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt, Ptolemy I. We did an episode all about Ptolemy I with Professor Ptolemy Toby Wilkinson, too, so we'll put a link to both of those episodes in the show. Notes if you want more on Alexandria and its story. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Ancients. Really do hope you enjoyed it. And if you did, please make sure to follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us. You'll be doing us a big favor if you'd be kind enough to leave us a rating as well. Well, we'd really appreciate that. Don't forget, you can also sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week. Sign up at historyhit.
- [42:49]
B
Com.
- [42:50]
A
Subscribe. That's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.