The Ancients – “Athens vs Persia: The Legend of Themistocles”
History Hit | April 19, 2026
Host: Tristan Hughes
Guest: Dr. Michael Scott (Professor of Classics & Ancient History, Warwick University; author of Themistocles: The Rise and Fall of Athens’ Naval Mastermind)

Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, host Tristan Hughes and guest Dr. Michael Scott unpack the complex legacy of Themistocles, the Athenian statesman and naval mastermind whose career defined, and was defined by, the great clash between Athens and Persia in the early 5th century BCE. They explore not just his legendary victories but the human stories, political risks, and dramatic reversals that marked his life—a story punctuated by equal measures of triumph, exile, and mythmaking.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Real Themistocles: Beyond the Myths

• Themistocles is often remembered for two historic achievements: building Athens' naval power that defeated Persia at Salamis, and fortifying the city with the famous Long Walls. (03:40 - 11:39)
• Dr. Scott emphasizes that Themistocles’ life was a “series of rises and falls,” not a steady ascent:

  “If I’d had my way, to be honest, I would have said ‘the rises and the falls or the rise and the fall and the rise and the fall and the rise and the fall again’, because that is the reality of Themistocles’ life.” – Dr. Michael Scott (06:11)

Historical Sources & The Problem of “Legend”

• Themistocles appears in the works of Herodotus and Thucydides, but source material from his own era is scarce and fragmentary. Much is mythologized, often to fit later narratives of democracy or Athenian greatness. (11:51 - 14:52)
• Later biographies (e.g., Plutarch) focus on his heroic moments, glossing over failures or less flattering episodes.

Early Life: Outsider on the Rise

• Born 524/523 BCE to a non-aristocratic family with a foreign (possibly non-Greek) mother, Themistocles' rise was enabled by the seismic shift from tyranny to (nascent) democracy in Athens. (16:46 - 21:44)

• “If the system around him had not changed in the direction that it did, it’s very unlikely he would have amounted to anything really, because...he is not from one of the elite aristocratic families.” – Dr. Michael Scott (16:46)

• As a teenager, after Athens’ political upheaval (revolution of 508 BCE), he seized new opportunities for ambitious self-made men.

Democratic Athens: Populism, Ostracism, and Political Drama

• Athens’ democracy was volatile, rewarding charismatic leaders—then often “slapping them down” via processes like ostracism. Direct democracy was “about the collective, not about the individual,” and public opinion could swiftly turn hostile. (25:55 - 36:22)
• Themistocles’ rivalry with Aristeides exemplifies this tension. Both faced repeated ostracism votes; only chance kept Themistocles from being exiled at key moments. (33:16 - 36:22)

• “It’s, you know, beast games or whatever you want the analogy to be, because we know that all of them are being voted for. Themistocles' name appears on those ostraka...” – Dr. Michael Scott (35:13)

The Naval Revolution & Salamis: Genius or Pragmatist?

• Themistocles persuaded Athens to build a powerful navy with silver from the Laurion mines. Though initially divisive, this decision enabled the Greek victory at Salamis. (07:11 - 11:39)
• In crisis, he used rhetoric, religious ritual, and even misinformation (sending a false message to the Persians) to keep the fractious Greek fleet united before Salamis. (38:09 - 42:21)

• “He sends his slave...to the Persian camp...and says the Greek fleet, it all wants to escape and run away. The best thing you can do is send your Persian fleet right now into the Straits of Salamis...” – Dr. Michael Scott (41:14)

• Debated: Was this brilliance or hedging his bets in case of defeat? (42:21)

Post-Salamis & Final Downfall

• Following the Persians’ defeat, Themistocles did not retain his hero status for long. The mood shifted, and he again fell from favor, partly due to his own hubris (e.g., erecting a temple to his own wisdom). (43:42 - 47:38)
• Eventually ostracized, then accused of treason and sentenced to death in absentia, Themistocles was forced into exile. Finding no refuge in Greece, he fled to the Persian court. (48:01 - 49:28)
• In Persia, he learned Persian fluently, won the king’s favor, and became a trusted advisor—issuing his own coinage in Asia Minor. Ultimately, compelled to help plan Persian attacks on Greece, he chose suicide over betrayal. (49:28 - 52:43)

Legacy & Historical Rehabilitation

• Despite his ignominious end, Themistocles’ reputation was completely rehabilitated after his death—particularly as Athens entered its imperial golden age and needed founding heroes for its emerging civic myth. (52:43 - 54:53)

• “Very quickly, 450 into the 440s, his reputation is completely rehabilitated in Athens... Forget the bit about him heading off to Persia. This is the guy who helped Athens become the supreme empire that she is today.” – Dr. Michael Scott (53:16)

• Statues, portraits, and new narratives enshrined him as a founding father of Athens' greatness. Only much later did some (like Cicero) question why.

Lessons from Themistocles’ Life

• Themistocles’ story is a reminder that great lives are messy, often marked by luck, contingency, and reputations shaped by others, not merely one’s own deeds. (56:28)

• “Life is full of ups and downs. Everyone’s is, and reputations are a very odd and tricky thing indeed.” – Dr. Michael Scott (57:06)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Themistocles’ life was not at all like [a steady upward progression]... every decision he made, he didn’t know that it was gonna be a success and where it was gonna lead to.” – Dr. Michael Scott (05:34)
• “Themistocles could see at firsthand quite how much this Athenian thing that had been created... could pick people up...and then absolutely slap them down again.” – Dr. Michael Scott (23:56)
• “It could not have happened if the world around him hadn’t changed at the time that it did, because he wouldn’t have been listened to.” – Dr. Michael Scott (22:07)
• “He sends his slave...signing, your best friend, Themistocles.” – Dr. Michael Scott (41:14, describing the nerve-wracking bluff that led to Salamis)
• “In Greece, he is still the exiled, condemned traitor and no friend of Greece. So the question is, how do we go from that to by the end of the 5th century... Themistocles [is] the most illustrious Greek of his generation?” – Dr. Michael Scott (51:19)
• “Reputations are an odd thing. And actually, they’re made for you by others, not you making them yourself.” – Dr. Michael Scott (51:52)

Timestamps of Key Segments

• [01:57]–[07:01]: Framing Themistocles’ reputation and rationale for studying his full, uneven life.
• [07:11]–[11:39]: Creating Athens’ naval power and the significance of Salamis and the Long Walls.
• [11:51]–[14:52]: What ancient sources tell us (and don’t) about Themistocles.
• [16:46]–[21:44]: Early life, background, and the import of social mobility in Democratic Athens.
• [23:48]–[27:36]: The mechanics and dangers of Athenian democracy; rivalry with Aristeides; ostracism (ostraka evidence).
• [38:09]–[42:21]: The Battle of Salamis, Themistocles’ tactics, and complex motivations.
• [43:42]–[47:38]: Fall from grace, hubris, and exile.
• [48:01]–[52:43]: Life in Persian service, final years, and death.
• [52:43]–[54:53]: Construction of Themistocles’ heroic afterlife and evolving Athenian memory.
• [56:28]–[57:09]: Reflections on the lessons from Themistocles’ life.

Final Thoughts

In a lively and accessible tone, this episode reveals Themistocles as more than a legendary victor—he was an outsider, a populist, an opportunist, a political survivor, and a man shaped by the swirling fortunes of his city. His meteoric career and the posthumous manipulation of his legacy speak volumes about ancient politics—and about how history remembers, and misremembers, its most influential figures.

Recommended Reading:
Themistocles: The Rise and Fall of Athens’ Naval Statesman by Michael Scott (Yale University Press) (57:15)

For fans of ancient history and anyone interested in how personal ambition, institutional change, and collective memory shape the fate of both people and nations, this episode is not to be missed.