The Ancients – "Origins of Mythology"
Podcast: The Ancients by History Hit
Host: Tristan Hughes
Guest: Laura Spinney (science writer, author of "Proto: How One Ancient Language Went Global")
Date: October 2, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode of The Ancients dives into the deep origins of mythology, exploring just how far back our oldest stories go, how they may be linked to the dawn of language, and what new scientific and linguistic approaches are uncovering about myths' endurance and spread. Host Tristan Hughes welcomes back Laura Spinney, who discusses ancestral myths like "Smith and the Devil," dragon-slaying tales, and the enduring impact of stories such as Cinderella and Little Red Riding Hood, tracing their threads back thousands of years to the proto-Indo-European peoples and beyond.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Why Do Humans Tell Stories?
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Two main theories for storytelling's purpose:
- Conveying Practical Information: Early stories embedded survival knowledge (dangerous animals, edible plants).
- Building Social Cohesion: Stories bind communities with shared memories and emotional experiences.
"I divide the kind of different theories about why we tell stories into two main blocks. One is about conveying information...and the other is that it has to do with keeping us together as a society."
— Laura Spinney [05:51]
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Storytelling synchronized group emotions, as backed by modern brain-imaging studies.
"There have even been sort of brain imaging studies which show that people who are listening to a really good storyteller have the same sort of synchronized brain activity."
— Laura Spinney [06:27]
2. Archetypes and the Hero’s Journey
- The "hero's journey" and other archetypal plots reflect universal human dilemmas, but modern experts are skeptical of strictly limiting stories to a fixed set of archetypes.
"Stories are very fluid, and even if you can identify basic elements...they're always being mixed and matched."
— Laura Spinney [07:46] - Reference to Christopher Booker's concept of seven basic plots (Overcoming the Monster, Rags to Riches, Quest, Voyage and Return, Rebirth, Tragedy, Comedy) but with some scholarly skepticism.
3. The Science of Tracing Stories – The Comparative Method
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Modern linguists treat myths as evolving entities like languages, using tools such as databases and the "comparative method" to reconstruct proto-stories.
"It all does start with linguistics...They are very often the same people who try to understand where our languages come from and where they evolved."
— Laura Spinney [09:32] -
"Mytheme": The smallest meaningful unit in a myth (parallel to genes in biology).
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Reconstruction allows researchers to trace stories back 4,000-6,000 years and, speculatively, much earlier.
4. Case Study: "Smith and the Devil"
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A "deep structure" myth, where a smith bargains with the devil, possibly dating to Proto-Indo-European times (~5,000-6,000 years ago).
"The Smith and the Devil is the oldest one they found in the Indo European tradition."
— Laura Spinney [14:33] -
Links to stories like Faust, with supporting research by anthropologist Jamie Tehrani.
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Brothers Grimm’s 19th-century work unintentionally preserved linguistically significant tales.
5. Reconstructed Proto-Myths — Live Performances ([18:00–26:04])
A. Proto-Indo-European Creation Myth [18:39–20:02]
Read in reconstructed Proto-Indo-European; features world-making from the dismembered body of a primordial twin, a motif found across many Indo-European mythologies.
"In the Indo European creation myth, the first man makes the world from the dismembered parts of his twin, his twin brother."
— Laura Spinney [20:07]
B. Proto-Indo-European Dragon-Slayer Myth [24:56–26:04]
Features the "thunderer" hero, serpent slaying, and the recurring theme of the hero dying (but gaining immortal fame)—motifs reflected in Greek, Persian, Norse myth, and echoed today in stories like Tolkien and Game of Thrones.
"You can't get enough of dragons...there are features of the way that story is told in Indo European cultures that define it very much as Indo European."
— Laura Spinney [26:30]
6. The Age and Spread of Fairy Tales ([14:06–18:00], [32:55–36:02])
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"Cinderella" and "Rumpelstiltskin": Possibly originated 4,000+ years ago; "Cinderella"-type stories are found globally, hinting at independent invention and later "mixing" across traditions.
"The Cinderella notion...had probably arisen independently in at least four storytelling traditions around the world."
— Laura Spinney [16:40] -
"Little Red Riding Hood": Likely ancient and pre-literate, possibly encoding warnings relevant to early communities.
"It's possible that it was conveying some kind of warning...not to tangle with these dangerous men coming from the East."
— Laura Spinney [34:48]
7. Story Evolution, Borrowing, and Barriers ([32:55–38:06])
- Myths mutate: Stories adapt to new landscapes and societies, sometimes blurring with non-Indo-European myths via encounter and cultural exchange.
- Language barriers slow story diffusion; oral transmission is central to social identity.
"Language barriers throw up huge obstacles to the spread of stories, or at least slow them down."
— Laura Spinney [36:02]
8. Ancient Storytelling’s Roots: 40,000+ Years Ago ([30:50–32:35])
- Evidence like the "Lion Man" sculpture (c. 35,000–40,000 years old) suggests myth-making and anthropomorphic imagination are extremely ancient and deeply tied to the spirit world of early humans.
9. Myths, Change, and Endurance During Social Upheaval
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Myths survived the shift from hunter-gatherer lifestyles to agricultural societies, speaking to their importance in maintaining culture and social memory.
"It was very, very important, perhaps more important than we understand today, where we think of stories as just a form of entertainment."
— Laura Spinney [37:41] -
Motifs like horror elements persisted, sometimes serving as social conditioning.
"One idea...was that it was horror. Because many of the older fairy tales...are very gruesome and horrible."
— Laura Spinney [38:28]
10. Universal Myths and Independent Invention ([39:29–42:57])
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Sometimes different cultures develop similar myths (e.g., Orion the hunter constellation in Greek and Aboriginal Australian traditions), possibly via common experiences or inherited star lore from early migrations.
"Probably for ever human beings have looked up at the sky and wondered what those twinkly things are, right? And that's a universal experience..."
— Laura Spinney [40:26] -
Aboriginal oral traditions preserve stories accurately for up to 7,000 years, even recounting lost coastlines.
11. The Storytellers’ Social Status
- Storytellers in ancient societies were revered, akin to valued craftsmen, sometimes even ennobled, with skills passed through families—especially in Celtic (Irish) tradition.
"They were...brought into the king's court, handsomely rewarded for their efforts with horses and jewels..."
— Laura Spinney [44:41]
12. Modern Myths: Conspiracy Theories ([45:32–47:41])
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Conspiracies act as modern myths, providing explanations for the inexplicable and helping people process fear or uncertainty.
"They do do something for us, which is what myths do, including creation myths, which is explain the world."
— Laura Spinney [45:47]"There’s really no good evidence...that [conspiracy theories] are more common now than they ever were. It’s just that they’re perhaps more visible because of social media."
— Laura Spinney [47:06]
13. What Ancient Myths Tell Us About Ourselves
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Myths reflect both stability and fluidity of human culture; we seek explanations, agency, and comfort in stories, often to avoid accepting randomness or to assign responsibility (or credit).
"At the most basic level, we need an explanation. We need things to make sense. And we like to have an idea that nothing happens for no reason, nothing is random."
— Laura Spinney [49:17]
Notable Quotes — Speaker & Timestamp
- Laura Spinney:
- "We tell stories for as long as we've spoken, let's put it that way." [03:33]
- "Stories could be doing many different things at once." [05:04]
- "Stories are very fluid...the building blocks are being swapped around." [07:46]
- "You basically take the features of whether it be a language or a myth, and you compare them across cultures in order to understand how they may be related..." [09:35]
- "Cinderella's notion had probably arisen independently in at least four storytelling traditions around the world." [16:40]
- "Dragon slayer story illustrates another theme...the concept of a dragon is not exclusive to Indo-European traditions..." [26:30]
- "When they come up against...a linguistic boundary specifically, it might not stop it entirely...But it’s harder for it to do so." [36:26]
- "Conspiracy theories may be filling that niche for us in the modern world." [45:47]
- "We love to impose agency on events...rather than some random concatenation of circumstances." [49:17]
Key Timestamps
- [03:20] — Laura Spinney on the ancient origins of storytelling
- [05:04] — The practical/social functions of myths
- [07:15] — Discussion of story archetypes and the hero's journey
- [09:32] — Linguistic and comparative methods for reconstructing myths
- [12:12] — The "Smith and the Devil" myth case study
- [14:06] — The Grimm brothers and fairy tales' antiquity
- [18:39–20:02] — Reconstructed Proto-Indo-European creation myth reading
- [24:56–26:04] — Reconstructed Proto-Indo-European dragon-slayer myth reading
- [30:50] — "Lion Man" and the antiquity of mythical imagination
- [32:35] — How stories adapt to new environments and cultural contact
- [34:48] — The possible Indo-European context of "Little Red Riding Hood"
- [36:00] — Linguistic boundaries and story transmission
- [44:27] — The prestige and social role of storytellers
- [45:47] — Conspiracy theories as modern myths
- [49:17] — Myths, agency, and human psychology
Memorable Moments
- Live readings of reconstructed Proto-Indo-European myths ([18:39–20:02], [24:56–26:04]): powerfully atmospheric, bridging modern listeners to deep prehistory.
- Connection to contemporary pop culture: Laura likens widespread ancient motifs (dragon-slaying, rags-to-riches) to today's stories, from Game of Thrones to Harry Potter.
- Red Riding Hood’s possible roots as a cautionary tale about predation, with links to the advent of Indo-European warrior bands.
Final Thoughts
Laura Spinney and Tristan Hughes map the intricate, ancient webs of myth that connect us across languages, epochs and civilizations. This episode spotlights the cutting-edge science behind myth reconstruction and underlines the timeless social function of storytelling—whether warning children of wolves, celebrating dragon-slayers, or grappling with life’s randomness through conspiracy theories.
Recommended further reading:
- Laura Spinney’s book, Proto: How One Ancient Language Went Global
For more: Find The Ancients on Spotify or visit History Hit for ad-free listening and documentaries.