Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (7:33)

Thanks for inviting me.

Adrian Goldsworthy (7:34)

No problem at all. Thank you for agreeing to do this series with us. So you're going to be a regular guest, our guest for this new series on Alexander the Great. We're going to cover his story in four episodes, from his beginnings to his ultimate demise in Babylon aged 32. And the very fact that we can fit four whole episodes in for the story of Alexander. And maybe even that's not enough. It's testament to how much material there is surviving about this figure.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (8:04)

It is in some ways. And yet there are other large gaps in his life compared to people in the ancient world. We know quite a lot about him, but we don't know so much about his society, what Macedonian royal court life was like in a way that say, for the late first century B.C. rome, we've got Cicero, we've got Caesar, we've got lots of traditions that give you a bit more of an idea of how people thought about marriage, childhood, education. So with Alexander, you have to guess. And although we have lots of information about him, the thing we've always got to bear in mind is almost none of its contemporary or even written in the lifetime of somebody who knew Alexander. So in most cases you're dealing with stuff written down four centuries later. For the fullest accounts, the Arian, the Plutarch, they're writing under Hadrian, early part of the second century AD. So more than 450 years after Alexander's death. So it's a little bit like talking about Henry VIII now, as if without the contemporary sources, what's the tradition? So you've got to be careful in using it, because Alexander had come to mean so many things to so many different people. It's the Romans who dub him the great and think in those terms. So it's great in some ways, but it isn't straightforward.

Adrian Goldsworthy (9:20)

So much of his story is mythologized and it's actually trying to figure out who was the real Alexander, what's the fact, what's the fiction. And especially for stuff which is not directly associated with his conquest of Persia and so on, like his early life. I mean, the first episode we're doing, we're coming from his birth all the way to him taking the throne and more. And that's more than 20 years, and that's more than two thirds of his life already.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (9:42)

I mean, it's not that unusual for the ancient world that we don't know much about anyone until they become famous. They're suddenly in the limelight, they're on the political, the military stage. But it's worse for Alexander because we don't know much about society. The big problem is we talk about that the Greeks, which is meaningless. There wasn't a Greece. There are lots of Greek communities who see themselves as Hellenes. Their common language, the Macedonians are on the fringes of that. There's an ancestor of Alexander, namesake Alexander. I wants to compete in the Olympic Games, we're told by Herodotus, and there's a debate over whether or not he's a Greek. And eventually he gets in because his family claimed to be descended from exiles from Argos in the Peloponnese, big rival of Sparta. And therefore the royal family are officially declared Greek and he's allowed to compete. But that suggests that they're not sure. Later on, by Alexander's father Philip's day, he's putting chariot teams into it. And it's no problem at all because you're big and powerful enough, you can't be ignored. But a lot of what we think when we say the Greeks think this about how children develop, about families, about romance, this sort of thing actually relies on a relatively small pool of information, all focused around Athens and the elite of Athens. And then we generalize from that and say, oh, well, this is what they'd be doing. But there's not much basis for that. It's just we don't have anything else. So you don't have context to fill in with. Well, this is what would be normal for an aristocrat for a royal prince at this stage of their life. So that's the other big problem is that we're trying to understand something where until Alexander comes along, we hear very little about Macedonia. Even Philip, who is the man who sets up the Macedonian kingdom, begins the war against Asia that Alexander will lead and will take him all the way to India. There are large parts of Philip's life we don't know where he was or what he was doing. We can't pin it down. That's never the case with Alexander. But Philip doesn't get that attention, which means even comparing Alexander to his father, who's better documented than other Macedonian kingdom, is a problem. And that's without any story. Understanding history, you need that context, that sense of just how unusual is this. And clearly in a lot of respects, Alexander's story is incredibly unusual. He becomes the ultimate hero, the ultimate conqueror, plenty of Roman emperors. Whenever any of them even vaguely looks eastwards towards Asia, the poets start talking about Alexander and how this, whether it's Gaius Caesar, whether it's Crassus, Mark Antony, Augustus himself, Trajan, Julian, later On in the 4th century, everyone starts saying, oh, yeah, this is going to be the new Alexander. You know, we'll get to India, we'll do all the things Alexander did. And of course they don't. So that again, it's like anyone who becomes so famous, how do you get to the real Alexander, the real Napoleon, any of these people? Partly because they were making their own myth as they went along as well, very consciously, which doesn't help, I feel,

Adrian Goldsworthy (12:46)

even in this first episode where we're exploring his kind of his early years, we'll still be exploring certain stories that have become mythologized over the time. Whether it's his birth or the taming of Bucephalus, his horse, or so on and so forth. But let's set the scene first off. So Alexander, he is born in 356B.C. July, it's normally said either the 20th or the 21st of July. And Macedon at that time, you've already hinted at beforehand. It's been very much on the periphery of the Greek world. But what's happening at that time, it feels like that power balance is starting to shift. The golden age of Athens and Sparta has gone and there's an opportunity here for Macedon.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (13:27)

It's very much so. Southern Greece is where the quintessential Greeks as we remember them, that's where they developed. It's the land of city states and it's the Land of Athens, Sparta and then Thebes, the other great ruffle, Corinth as well. But Corinth falls away. The Athenians and the Spartans have led the resistance against the Persian empire. When the big invasion, first of all, 490, but then you get the big one under Xerxes in 480 BC, you know, Thermopylae and the Omnidas and 300 Spartans and all of that. The Athenians have helped them win at Salamis, the Spartans at Plataea, the land battle. But after that, it's quite scary. But in barely a generation, the Athenians and the Spartans are at each other's throats. And not only that, but after their golden moment of standing up to the great evil empire from the east, they both want Persian gold to help fund their war against their fellow Greek neighbours. And the Spartans end up victorious at the end of the big Peloponnesian War, as we call it. But their dominance lasts a few decades. They get hammered by the Thebans in battle, their population's declining, their societies in all sorts of difficulties. Thebes is again dominant for a decade or so. But then the Thebans, their main leaders, die. And there Philip is born into that period of dominance. Alexander's father, Philip II of Macedon. He is even a hostage in Thebes for a while in his teenage years, something again unimaginable for Alexander. But when Philip returns and becomes probably regent in 359, when his older brother, one brother's been king and got murdered, the second one gets defeated by the Illyrians and killed in battle with most of his army. The Illyrians in the Balkans, there's Albania, that area. And to the north you've got. Think of it this way, you've got southern Greece, which the Greeks consider this is real civilization. This is us fringe peoples. The Thessalians are a bit less Greek, but they're still Greek. The Macedonians, yeah, we're not sure about them. Then you get to the Thracians, the Illyrians, pioneers, people like that. These are true barbarians. These are people whose language sounds like gibberish, who are just not as good as you, not inclined towards civilization. And all the sort of the. The themes you'd have with the Cyclops in the Odyssey, that they. The Cyclops is. They don't have a city, they don't have laws, they don't farm, they pastoralists. And they live in villages, are scattered. And they're generally angry and violent and this.

Adrian Goldsworthy (15:48)

This irrational fear that if they actually did ever band together, all of them, that they would be able to, like, wipe through, you know, sweep away Greece. But because they're so uncivilized and barbaric, that would never happen.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (16:00)

It's the sort of thank goodness, because otherwise they are ferocious and they're cruel and they're savage. And yes, you sometimes say, well, yeah, they're not really disciplined, but they still scare you. And you don't want that organization. Macedonia is in between, and it's in some way, it's a bulwark against that forces of chaos beyond there. But also, Philip takes over a Macedonian kingdom that is being preyed upon by the Thebans, by Thracians, by Illyrians. It's got divisions within the royal family. It's really weak. And Macedonia as a kingdom has had periods when it's been strong, but they've tended to be brief. The royal family has convinced everybody that only someone of the blood can rule, but they tend to have a lot of children, and there's no real clear principle of the oldest succeeds or clear succession. So basically anybody from that royal family can become king if enough people will back him. Nearly all the Macedonian kings we know about divinely, and quite a few get killed in battle, but even more get killed by other Macedonians, get murdered, get assassinated. So Philip inherits this weak, fragile kingdom that's often the victim, and he is starting at this stage to turn it round. And he's won some victories. He's defeated the Illyrians, the Thracians. He's got rid of challengers from within his own family. He's defying the Athenians that have always had a keen interest in that area. Because the big advantage with this part of the world is that compared to southern Greece, the resources are greater. You've got gold mines, silver mines. You've also got timber. Lots of wood. Yes, lots of wood. And you need that. You think of the great monuments we see in Greece now, you forget how much timber was needed to build them for roof beams, but also for the scaffolding to get up, but particularly to keep them. And then you think of Athens, whose power rested on its fleet of wooden ships built from timber that's primarily coming from this area. So Macedonia is potentially rich, which is why everybody's after it all the time and trying to get in on the action. Philip, by 356, is turning things around, but he's only been ruler three years, possibly king for only two. He may have been, say, regent at first, and he's still young. He's only in his 20s and given how many other Macedonians have done well for a bit and then got killed as rulers. Alexander's born into a kingdom that is stronger than it was and is going to get stronger. But obviously in 356, not everybody knew this was going to happen.

Adrian Goldsworthy (18:32)

It's also really interesting. You mentioned those military victories that he's already won against the Illyrians. He's slowly turning things around. What I also find fascinating about these early years is how quickly Philip goes on the polygamy train. Like all his marriages, maybe, except the last one, which no doubt we'll get to. You can see a clear political motive behind them. He. They're princesses with nearby peoples. I think there's an Illyrian princess there, first of all, after he defeats them, there's a city and there's a Thessalian, one or two Thessalians. And then we get to Alexander's mother, she's a Molossian. This is Olympias and Molossia. I always see Molosha, which is in like northwest Greece, southern Albania today, as very similar to Macedonia in that Epirus region, which is how the Greeks further south view it almost once again as a peripheral zone. They're not fully barbarian, but they are different. They're on the fringes, I think.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (19:24)

Yes, it's almost a sort of smaller version of Macedonia because it isn't quite as big or as well populated. Doesn't quite have the resources, but it's more Greek than what's beyond. And they think of themselves as Greek. You know, Olympias comes from a family that claims descend from Achilles. Yes, the great hero of. Well, hero perhaps is the. It's a more complex thing there. But the main figure of the Iliad and one of the great heroes of the Trojan epic, the greatest warrior of all. So they're buying into that sense of Greek identity of a shared culture that goes back a long way. But yes, they're not quite. I mean, the big thing that both Epirus and Macedonia really lacks are cities. This is a culture of villages and cities in southern Greece. They give you all the political developments, but they also have intimately linked with those, the military developments, the hoplite, the classic Greek warrior and the ability to build these warships. It comes from this civic identity, the fact that you have an obligation to the state. The more you're willing to fight and risk your life for the state, the greater political rights you have and that therefore you serve voluntarily. Yes, you might be given a stipend if you're sent away for a period and the state might look after you, but basically you're doing this as a citizen. That's not really a thing. You're much more a clan member, a tribesman. It's more like highland Scotland. It's that sort of sense. So there's a link, there are clearly older links between the Molossians and the Macedonians and the Paris and whether they should be. Should they be part of Macedonia, should they be part of papyrus? It's a little bit like that. Those divisions where you have these clearly distinct groups and they. They can be absorbed by others. But they do seem to have a very strong sense of identity that, at least in theory, is based on kinship and leadership of noblemen, princes, who are your fellow tribesmen, your fellow clansmen. It's no coincidence that the armies of Philip and Alexander, they are the hetairoi, we could translate as companions. And the feminine version of the word, you get courtesan, the hetaira. But it's that sense of you're not quite a citizen. It's a different idea, but you are like being a McDonald's of the McDonald's. It's that sense that there is some kinship, some connection, that they are your leaders because their family has always been, but they have obligations to you. You're not subject so much. You're not people who can just be ordered around. They have to live up to a certain style of behavior. It's a sort of reciprocal thing. They have obligations to you in the same way you have to them. But it's very much a hierarchy which you don't have in the same way further south.

Adrian Goldsworthy (22:10)

So Philip marries Olympias and I think that's around 357 B.C. his third or fourth marriage, already by this time, once again, shoring up Macedon's borders. And Alexander is born not too long after that. Very interesting. You mentioned there, of course, Olympias, the royal family, the Ehicids, they claim descend from Achilles and of course Philip's family, the Argyeds, claim descend from Heracles. So once again, you've got that for Alexander later on he's got Heracles and Achilles in his blood. That idea. If we go to the birth of Alexander itself very briefly, I find this fascinating that it almost is a symbol of everything to come. How much of his story becomes mythologized because there's this. This great story that the day of his birth is also the day that the great temple at Ephesus, the temple of Artemis, is burned down, supposedly because Artemis is away watching the birth of Alexander.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (23:02)

And so she's not taking care of her temple, basically.

Adrian Goldsworthy (23:06)

And it's Herostratus who burns down the temple. And then we get the word herostratic fame, where he's remembered, where someone is remembered for something infamous.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (23:15)

Yes.

Adrian Goldsworthy (23:15)

But just that their name survives. But it's fascinating. You get that fantastic myth, you know, for Alexander's, even for his birth.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (23:23)

Yes. And the stories, you know, that Philip dreams of Olympus's wound being struck by lightning. Another dream, he puts a seal on it with the symbol of a lion on. And this whole idea, the world will be disturbed by the. You know, it's. You get a few. I mean, Augustus will have a few stories invented about him and his precocious youth. The Romans don't do it as much, though it will come on. But they're Again, a theme throughout Plutarch's lives of Greeks and Romans is the foreshadowing. You know, there's this little boy who suddenly, either something happens that makes you think, oh yeah, watch that one. You know, it's going to be. He's going to do big things. How much of it is much, much later is very hard to say. Obviously, people later on thought it is staggering. And again, it comes back to a problem with Alexander because we know that this prince is going to be Alexander the Great and we know what he's going to do and how successful he is. It's quite hard to go back and understand the story when people didn't know was going to happen. You know, the Persians who went to fight Alexander the Great and meet him in battle, they didn't think they were fighting Alexander the Great, you know, one of the most famous commanders in history, they just thought it was some foreign general who was causing trouble and had annoyed them. So all this mythology that develops, and of course in Alexander's case, because of his later propaganda, but particularly the visit to Siwa and the oracle of Jupiter, Ammon, Zeus Ammon that we'll talk about later, he's thinking, you know, there's this sense of, you couldn't have done all this unless you were divine. And because we're dealing with a polytheistic society, you have the Herakles type figures who are fathered by a God, but then they become semi divine. But they're a human who just does all these spectacular things and they have descendants. Spartan kings claim to be descendants of Heracles as well because Heracles and the sons of Heracles basically get everywhere pretty much in the ancient world. And so many people will lay a claim to this as part of their. Their own story. So they have. That. We tend to think of, you know, very simply, there's God and there's human beings. We think in that monotheistic way. You've got to try and get into this mindset of people looking around and thinking, wow, look at all this. Things that this fellow is doing and then has done. It can't have been just that he's just some ordinary kid from. Exactly. From Vergina who just does. You know. Yeah, exactly. So it's understandable. And because you have so many of the stories, the myths that are the common culture within the Greek world that involve Zeus going around having affairs with various women fathering different people. And it's natural, in a sense, to do that. It's always hard to know how much anybody really believed it, even at the time, or whether they can. Whether it's sort of exclusive, I suspect, because most people do seem to understand that Alexander is Philip's son, and yet they can also believe this as well. So I think sometimes these things can coexist for the same audience.

Adrian Goldsworthy (26:38)

So, of course, Alexander is. So he is the son of Philip and Olympias. He also does have a sister, which we should mention Tunri, and her name is Cleopatra. She. I don't want to say the original Cleopatra because I think it's a Macedonian royal name and they probably would have been Cleopatra's before. But I always see it as almost like the first Cleopatra because she's interesting to remember that Alexander does have a sister, a full sister.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (26:59)

It's, of course, one of the problems is because, again, we know the end of the story is always going to be Cleopatra vii, the famous Cleopatra. And she's become, in the popular imagination, quintessentially Egyptian rather than. This is a Greek name. It's distinguished in her ancestry. It's that sort of sense word like that, anyway. And it is. Yes, it does seem to be quite a common name. It's obviously a fairly aristocratic royal boast, but they do crop up. There are others. We know depressingly little about her in the same way that we know we don't know much about Olympias. And I mean, she gets some more attention than the rest of Philip's wives. What we can say is that this isn't a succession. This isn't Henry viii. Oh, you know, I've got sick of this one. She's not giving me a male heir. Divorce her, have another one. Execute so on. Philip II is polygamous. It looks as if the Macedonian royal family has a long tradition of this, that they take more than one wife and that the heir could be the heir from any of those wives. It's difficult. It doesn't seem to be that all Macedonians do this or even the aristocracy do this. It just seems to be the royal family, and it may be a mark of their peculiarity. But again, until Philip comes along, we don't have a lot of evidence for the royal family. So this is guesswork. But it looks as if the seven or eight wives that he has coexist. You know, it must have made for some interesting domestic situations. But the other striking thing is that we don't know so much about them. The sources are only really interested in them when they do something with or to produce a male heir, male political figure. So, Olympias, there's a little bit about, but far less than we'd like. Most of them we know next to nothing about beyond the name. We don't know when they die. We don't know if there are other pregnancies where the child doesn't reach maturity. There are other children, and there is the line. And you have the Illyrian, several of whose the daughter and granddaughter both appear to fight in battle. So they seem to take this Illyrian martial traditional. Yeah. So you presume that's happening back in Philip's day as well with this one, but we don't know. It's guesswork. So when you come to Alexander's sister, Cleopatra, it isn't really surprising how little we know about her. But as a historian, it's deeply frustrating because you feel, you know, this is surely an important relationship with Alexander.

Adrian Goldsworthy (29:17)

And also after Alexander's death, once again, where she actually starts playing a more visible role, then we know about her.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (29:23)

But until then, she just vanishes, pops up again, and it's deeply, deeply frustrating.

Hayden (29:37)

Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (29:39)

Fellas.

Hayden (29:40)

I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.

Stephen (29:45)

And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy.

Hayden (29:49)

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Stephen here has not read Mistborn before.

Stephen (29:57)

That's right.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (29:58)

Hey, Hei.

Stephen (29:58)

So each week, you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.

Hayden (30:02)

And along the way, we'll do character, deep div, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert, he'll be wrong.

Stephen (30:10)

Newsflash, I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday and you can find fantasy fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (30:18)

After civil war, regicide and Cromwell's Republic, the monarchy returned, but Britain would never be the same. I'm Professor Susanna Lipscomb, and this month on Not Just the Tudors. We're transported back to the age of Restoration royalty, from Charles II to Queen

Adrian Goldsworthy (30:37)

Anne and the birth of the empire.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (30:39)

Join me on Not Just the Tudors from History. Hit wherever you get your podcasts.

Adrian Goldsworthy (31:03)

Just mentioned some of those other figures that come to my head, so I believe he might actually have an older half brother, Alexander. I can't tell if if we know for sure whether he was older or younger, but his name's Aridaeus and he's a product of another of these wives, a Thessalian. He has another younger half sister, Thessaloniki, and he's got a cousin called Amyntas, who's also quite a might be another potential thorn in his side when it comes to succession, as we'll get down the line.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (31:28)

He's got the royal blood. Yes, that's all that matters. Arrhydias, I think we generally assume is older but is considered in some shape or form incapable. Whether it's through physical lameness, mental deficiency, personality issues, we don't know. He has briefly made Macedonian king after Alexander's death, but he's clearly a puppet.

Adrian Goldsworthy (31:48)

He is a puppet.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (31:48)

And there is the tradition that Olympias poisoned him as a youth. So you get that the wicked stepmother type thing. Again, it seems unlikely, but you never quite know. So again, it comes back to when you're trying to write about an Alexander the Great. For all we know about him, so many of the things that would be important for a biography of a modern political figure or military leader, we just don't know. And these family and personal connections are abysmally recorded. We just get little glimpses and we know somebody's around but next to nothing about them. And sometimes we only know somebody's around because later on they appear after his death and do something. And that's how we know their existence.

Adrian Goldsworthy (32:30)

Well, we set the scene nicely of what Macedon looks like when Alexander is born and the closest people in his family at that time. Let's look through his earlier years before he really emerges on the political scene, because this is always a time with so many big figures from ancient history, we have frustratingly little. And I feel it's the same with Alexander. I mean, if we focus on education, first of all, the big name that comes to the forefront for so many people is Aristotle. But it's not just Aristotle that we have information about.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (33:01)

No, I mean, you hear about his tutor, a connection of Olympias who basically puts him through this rigorous Spartan style training. All this stuff. What do you call a good breakfast is a night march and a good dinner is an early breakfast.

Adrian Goldsworthy (33:14)

And it's funny that his name's Leonidas as well.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (33:16)

Exactly. Well, that's. But again, the lion element of that, it feeds into this whole sense of Alexander the lion, this symbolism. But other things he is clearly raised as as far as we can tell, every Macedonian aristocrat, prince would be raised to learn how to fight, to learn to be fit, to be physically strong. There isn't the tradition of the gymnasium in quite the same way in Macedonia. It's not as obsessive because in part that's a place where people who are equals can compete and show off their bodies, their prowess. If you're the prince, you're not supposed to have an equal. So Alexander later on will refuse to take part in races, gymnastic competition, because he says, well, I'll only compete if I compete against other kings. And it's this idea, if you think back to Homer, the heroes just compete with each other. You can't just have any old fish and chips who joins in and says, oh, I'm good at running, I'll do this. You've got to be somebody of note to make it worthwhile. But there's clearly an awful lot of physical training as well as the. Again, you've mentioned Aristotle. We know about him, but he is clearly a highly literate individual within that Greek tradition, which might be in part Philip making a special emphasis. Macedonia is becoming more important. I've got connections with a lot of the southern Greek states, I want to dominate them. But probably reflects. Philip also seems to be very easy in the company and of course has spent several years in Thebes. So has a sense of the aristocratic culture within the cities as well. So there's a lot going on. But it is this big problem. As I said earlier, if you look at Caesar or a Cicero, you have an idea of what a Roman would be doing at that age. We just don't with the Macedonians. So there's one tradition that you couldn't sit at a banquet until you've killed a boar, wild boar only mentioned once in all ancient literature that there is this tradition. But people assume, well, he must have done that then. That's assuming the source is right. That's assuming you don't get a bit of a, you know, bit of a helping hand because you're royal and basically. Are they going to tell you to. Yes, Just, you know, you can't recline.

Adrian Goldsworthy (35:19)

And that story is also in the context of a Macedonian noble born who doesn't do it. And so he's not allowed to recline. Cassander. Yeah.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (35:26)

Which is later. It's just very difficult to know. But he's clearly being raised to rule, to lead men in battle. As time goes on, he gets marked out as the heir, but that's not necessarily going to be the truth, A because nobody knows if he's going to survive that long. And also, Philip's got all these wives. Might well take more. There might be more children. Philip is not expecting to die as he does so early. The Macedonian royal family, like a lot of people around at this time, if they don't get killed, they tend to live to a really ripe old age. You get lots of active men in their 70s and 80s. Again, we'll see it with the funeral games after Alexander's death. People have been. Phillips officers are still fighting for power, going strong, these sort of angry geriatrics that are charging around. So it's again, complicated.

Adrian Goldsworthy (36:14)

It is, very much. And it also feels, because throughout those decades, 350s and 340s, Philip II, he's always campaigning somewhere here, there and everywhere. It makes sense that Olympias is overseeing his earlier education or at least giving it to one of her kinsmen, this Molossian, Leonidas. But then, of course, I guess we should talk about Aristotle, shouldn't we? Because when does he come into the story and how much of the story does he cover?

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (36:37)

I guess it's when Alexander's about 13. This is the sort of age. So, again, given the philosophical tradition Aristotle represents, it's not, you know, it's not primary school stuff. So there is a logic to this. Alexander is removed to be tutored by Aristotle. We then, whether it's in our imagination, in lots of biographies, history books or on screen, we assume all his chums, all his contemporaries, Hephaistean and Ptolemy and all the others are there as well. No evidence for any of that. Oh, interesting. Maybe not a shred that anyone else is educated. So whether this is a sort of Oxford, Cambridge tutorial thing, where it's just Alexander being grilled, or whether it seems to make more sense that others might be involved, but we don't know. Aristotle isn't quite the Aristotle yet. He's already made some name. He's been at the academy in Athens under Plato but Plato has died. Aristotle doesn't get the job, doesn't succeed him. So one's off. He's from these sort of northern Greek communities around the Dardanels, the Black Sea, that sort of Asia. Yeah that are on the fringes of the Persian Empire much of their time. These, these various tyrants they tend not to be too democratic. They tend to have. But his interests are clearly developing but with Alexander it's bringing two of the great figures of the ancient world together. So we're bound to get excited about this. We know very little about what was actually taught. The big theme is that Alexander when he goes off on his expedition will take scholars with him including relative Aristotle's. There will be the interest in the natural world. You know it's a bit like Napoleon in part consciously emulating but going off to Egypt with all the savon and this idea that you can. This military exhibition can also be a learning experience but which is quite common in exploration in a lot of periods when you're going somewhere where you don't have much knowledge. However, what the ancient sources emphasize as far as they do is the. That Aristotle develops Alexander's existing interest in Homer, the Iliad and particularly Achilles and presents him with this annotated text manuscript of the Iliad. Now whether that is the complete with just my notes on or selections that I consider particularly important or this is what it means. Even though the Iliad deals with these heroic warriors this sort of earlier this old fashioned culture it has inspired generations of people in southern Greek states. People feel they can plan their life around it and it's standards of behavior not necessarily the strict code of how you actually fight a battle, how you do things but this sense of what it means to be distinguished, to be good, to be one of the good men, to be an aristocrat essentially obviously that's even more attractive a message for prince but there is clearly that sense of how should I behave. It is a. We tend to see it as a story but this is very much moral examples for life how you should behave, how you should do things but with a different type of morality to the modern one because it is much more to do with honor, with reputation, with glory. But again the reason perhaps they emphasize this that Alexander sleeps with this copy of the Iliad under his pillow is of course this is what Alexander goes on to do in terms of. It is very much the well if Achilles were around today this is what he'd be doing hack his way through any problem. How else do you solve it?

Adrian Goldsworthy (40:06)

But it shows, doesn't it? I mean, what we get glimpses of, of his education, it's clearly he's raised, you know, as a Macedonian aristocrat, as a prince with all the things that are expected of a future leader. I mean, Casey does be the successor of Philip. And as you say, Philip seems to be nowhere near his death at the time. He's still actively campaigning. Which leads us to the next story, which is about when Alexander's around 12 or 13 years old, so about the same time he's been tutored by Aristotle. He's evidently got a bit of, he's got some balls, should we say? It's a fascinating story. Like he actually is in like the same place as Philip as his dad, which feels it must have been a bit of a rarity. And it's at this time when Macedon is now in control of Thessaly, the region to the south. And Thessaly has got a rich history for cavalrymen and the Thessalian horses are world renowned. And there's a story that this Thessalonians horse owner, is it Philonicus? I kind of. He brings this incredible black stallion with a white mark on the top of his head or something like that, some distinguishable mark, and offers it to Philip. And Philip and his companions try to ride this horse and they all fail. And Alexander is watching this and then he basically sees his dad give up. And I can't say it wrong word for word, but I think it's like, you know, he kind of basically, he doesn't lambast his dad, but he kind of says like, oh, what a pity. I mean, how can you give up to. You've given away this, you're gonna, you're basically giving up this incredible animal. And there's a bit of back and forth and then Philip's just like, you think you can do better? And Alexander's like, yes. And I think they almost kind of make a wager, isn't it? So like Philip's just like, very well, what will you offer me if you don't write and says, I'll pay for them. Alexander says he'll pay for them horse, which is quite funny for 12, 13 year old, but I guess he is a prince. So he does have the money. But the fascinating part of the story, isn't it, this famous mythologized story is that he recognized that this horse was scared of its own shadow, the movement of its own shadow. So he moves the horse towards where the sun is so he can't see the shadow anymore. And then he's able to calm the horse down and rides it away. And that is the story. He calls it Bucephalus, the stunning Bucephalus. And that is the story of how Alexander obtains his famous horse. And Philip saying something like, you know, Macedon is too small for you. You're evidently destined for even greater things. So it's a, it's a wonderful story. I guess you've got to figure what's true, what's not.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (42:32)

But it's one of those stories you want to be true or I always do. It's partly, it's the cost. The man's asking too much money. You know, let's say, well, nobody can ride it. Why should we pay for this? It's interesting the way it's presented in that you will find horses will get spooked by odd things. Just the shadow seems unusual because you'd think surely he must have seen lots of shadows before and hasn't gone crazy. On the other hand, it is something about horses. They like or they dislike you and they can take very strong opinions for no apparent reason. I like the way in Plutarch it gives us the fullest description. Alexander's describes going up very carefully and talking to and smoothing his neck. And it's all the things you would do with a real horse. And then. But you know, we think of all the Westerns we've watched over the years, the scene of somebody breaking a horse and the, you know, they, they get the, the young inexperienced guys given this, this terrible ferocious animal. And that's when you're trying to do it even with stirrups. This is bareback, so this is, this is a challenge. But on the other hand, that's how you're taught to ride. And the mass riding is a big, big deal for a Macedonian aristocrat. So I like it that in a sense the horse and the boy just like each other and get on and then get to trust each other. And also the sense that he, he rides with a bit of caution first and then feels when he's got the confidence really lets gives Bucephalus his head. So it's a great story. I'd love it to be true. The cynical historian in me suspects this is a lovely romantic at best. Embellished. On the other hand, clearly Alexander has a great affection for this horse. You found a city named after it in India, which you don't do very often. So. And it comes back to that. Sometimes we forget from our modern perspective, but in the ancient world, particularly for people like the Macedonians, they are living much closer to the natural world. And Alexander will spend a lot of his life on horseback or around horses. So they have that extra connection, affection as well. They're probably not as sentimental as we might be when we tend to think of everything as almost a pet, but there is still that bond that you can get. And Bucephalus will follow Alexander almost to the end of his campaigns when eventually the horse dies. So I'd love it to be true. But I do like the details. The details, actually, they fit. If you spend time around horses, the way Alexander is presented as doing this would actually be recommended by somebody training someone today.

Adrian Goldsworthy (44:58)

It's really nice, isn't it? And the 2004 epic Alexander. I know they do that whole story scene and they basically do it word for word from Plutarch. And I think it's probably one of the best scenes out there because of just. It doesn't actually need to be taken away from the text because it is. It is so detailed and do it. And if anyone ever goes up to Edinburgh once in a while, when I go up to see my old university city, I always make a small pilgrimage to the little courtyard just off the top of Romal where there is a statue and it's Alexander Taylor. Bucephalus.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (45:26)

I said, oh, right, gosh.

Adrian Goldsworthy (45:27)

So there is a statue just off the Roma of Alexander taming Bucephalus. But let's move on then. So we've, we've, we've covered Alexander and we've gone up to his teenage years. So let's get to around 339 BC, because this feels the time when Alexander, he's first on the military scene. This is when Philip decides, right, it's time for you to come out of the royal capital dealing with ambassadors or whatever he's been doing and actually come and deal with stuff on the scene. Do some fighting with me, right?

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (45:55)

I mean, he's had brief experience, is campaigning against tribe of The Mighty in 340, where he's about 16 and he's left in charge of a region while Philip's away campaigning, Governor. That's the first thing he does, is it? So, I mean, presumably there are some older, wiser heads around him, but he's supposed to win a victory, Found a city, the first Alexandria, which again shows that precocious confidence. But it becomes the big war will be the struggle with the alliance of some of the southern Greek states, led eventually by Athens and Thebes. So two of the big cities, the Spartans stay out of it. They don't like being second fiddle to anybody. They've got problems of their own. Other cities join. But it's not Philip fighting the Greeks, because quite a few Greek cities are fighting on Philip's side as well. And it's come out of the context of earlier interventions in the south that Philip's carried out. But it leads to the battle of Chaeronea in 338, when Alexander's about 18 and he figures fairly prominently that Philip has outmaneuvered the Greeks to get there. And then they find each other in this valley where the two armies stare at each other for a while before the battle finally happens, because they know that you can lose this war in an hour or so in the battle. You might win it, but you might lose it as well. It's a big roll of the dice and both sides are cautious. Unfortunately, the sources for it are abysmal. It reflects that the difference. If it was one of Alexander's battles with him in charge, we'd have some clearer idea of what was going on. You've got about 30,000 men, 30 to maybe 40,000 on the Allied side. Philip's got about 30,000 infantry, a couple of thousand cavalry, Macedonians, Thessalians, probably the other side may not have quite as many cavalry, but have more infantry. They probably the cavalry aren't as good, but the Thebans did have a cavalry tradition, so they're a bit better than, say, the Athenians that tend to be more skirmishing their role. We get a few stories about it. Plutarch, curiously enough, came from the area, so he remembers some traditions and he talks about Alexander's tree, which you could still see in his day centuries later, which was supposed to be where Alexander pitched his tent, marking that spot that the river, the stream there got its name because it was dyed in blood during the battle and this sort of thing. But again, you've got Shotover Hill in Oxford from the civil war siege. People live there. It doesn't necessarily mean that some of these traditions can be right. Some of them can get a bit garbled as time passes. The story is that Alexander leads the charge against the Theban sacred band, the elite force of the Thebans.

Adrian Goldsworthy (48:34)

This is the elite force of the Greeks fighting.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (48:37)

Other than this occasion, we hear virtually nothing about them, which rather means that the books and various documentaries and things done about the sacred Vanda are stretching that little bit of butter over a huge bit of bread, because we don't know very Much beyond this, he breaks their ranks. The assumption tends to be with scholars that he's doing this on horseback, he's leading a cavalry charge. Doesn't say that in the ancient sources. You have to be very careful because the tactics that Alexander uses against the Persians are probably not quite as uniform as people make them out. They tend to make it a system. But also you're fighting the Persians, who are mainly cavalry. You're fighting a Greek army that's mainly ranks and ranks of hoplites and a

Adrian Goldsworthy (49:19)

phalanx, that's spear and shield, isn't it? Yeah.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (49:21)

So heavy infantry, close order, tough nuts, they will grind through most things. Are you going to fight the same way? Are you going to use the same tactics? Cavalry charge against solid infantry tends not to work historically against the front. So it might be that here he's fighting on foot, at least at that stage of the battle. A battle is, again, in these vague descriptions, goes on a long time and is hard fought, whatever those, you know, what does long mean in those circumstances? So it might be that it's a bit less simple. So people tend to jump thinking, oh, this is just Alexander doing Alexander and doing it spectacularly. Well, there might be more to it, but the clear thing is that he fights with great distinction and is praised for his role in the battle. Philip is commander, Philip wins, but Alexander does his bit and is showing himself to be an able soldier officer. He's not yet a general.

Adrian Goldsworthy (50:14)

But the fact that Philip gives him so much authority in that battle, you know, commanding one of the wings against, you know, what is the elite infantry of the opposition. And this is something that you'll see later on in its key to Alexander's success is that dividing up of authority to other chief figures in the army so that they can basically have independence, you know, free strategic thinking on other parts of the line so that the king, in this case Philip, can focus on his part and just rely on Alex. The fact that he gives that independence to Alexander, yes, may also be like, you know, a sharp learning curve. But I, I feel Philip, he probably was risky, but maybe not that risky. He does it because he can see that there's clear, you know, qualities of Alexander as a leader in battle, even at that young age.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (51:02)

It's two things really. One is that perception. You're looking at this lad and thinking, yeah, he knows what he's doing and if he gets killed, well, he didn't know what he was doing. If he fails, he didn't know what he's got. If he is ever going to be Macedonian king or even a prominent subordinate. For me, he has got to live up to the standards of the Macedonians that they expect traditionally, but also they expect now, because, remember, Philip's been around for nearly two decades, fighting war after war, winning. There are a few defeats, but there are far more victories. He's created this new army. The men within it are his men, Philip's men, and he trusts them. So there's trust in two ways. He's got the trust of, okay, I've got lots of people, they're in organized units, they know their commanders, they know that, again, each one can deal with his section of the line and not worry about the flanks, because they trust the people there to be doing their job in the same way that I can focus on my bit because of this. So it's the army that's been created. And again, if Alexander is going to play any role in this, he's got to prove himself to them. But it comes back to this sense of companions. We're all in this together. This is the tribe going to war, each in our appropriate place. But we've got to live up to the expectations of everybody else. So if you're going to lead us, you've got to show that you deserve to lead us, and you've got to go first. So it comes from both, and it's a reflection of the army he's created. It's the sort of thing that would have been a risk 20 years before in the early days, but by this time, it's becoming more and more manageable. And in the end, if Alexander had got killed at Chaeronea, we'd probably never hear of him. He's not yet Alexander the Great. This isn't the make or break. If Alexander dies, the whole thing falls apart. So it makes sense, it's a logical thing, and it's a test that you'd have. He can't just stay back in his tent and sort of say, did it go well? And, you know, hold the sponge, bring on the sponge for people afterwards, it's a bit like, again, a successful sports team bringing in the young player. You've been winning for years. It's a lot easier to do. It's quite hard for them. It's intimidating. But if you're Alexander, you probably don't understand what intimidated me, but it makes

Adrian Goldsworthy (53:16)

you realize, because, you know, there. I know there are scholarly papers debating, did he fight on horseback or was it? And looking at the bones and the skeletons they have surviving to see, oh, does that mean that he was it. Was it a cut, a sore cut from a horse or from foot? All of that, in the larger scheme of things, doesn't actually seem to really matter that much. What matters in Alexander's case is the fact he was there and he was leading from the front, you know, and he shows what he can do. This is a baptism of fire, but it's. Yes, okay, it's not the making or breaking of Alexander's. Alexander the Great, but it's still important in his development as the first major pitch battle.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (53:47)

It's a start, and it shows him just what war can be like on this scale. And he could fail, but he doesn't. But it's like anything else. When you're aiming at the top, you've got to keep on succeeding. Everything is a new test. You pass that one, there'll be another one to do more. And it is part of this relationship as well. You are going to lead. It's not a Macedonian professional army that has to obey. They go because they're your companions. We're all in this together. That's the heart of the army, and it will be right the way through. So you've got to earn their trust because these people are, you know, they've been campaigning longer than you've been alive in some cases, so it all comes together. But, yeah, it's a big, big deal.

Hayden (54:41)

Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (54:43)

Fellas.

Hayden (54:44)

I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.

Stephen (54:49)

And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy.

Hayden (54:53)

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.

Stephen (55:01)

That's right.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (55:02)

Hey.

Stephen (55:02)

Hey. So each week, you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.

Hayden (55:07)

And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.

Stephen (55:14)

News flash, I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find Fantasy Fan fellows wherever you get your podcasts.

Dan Snow (55:21)

Hi, there. I'm Dan, host of Dan Snow's history podcast. I can imagine on these dark winter nights, all you want to do is curl up with a cup of tea and get lost in an amazing story. Well, I can help you with that. Twice a week, I tell you the most dramatic and extraordinary stories from history, with details I can guarantee you've never heard before. Feel the frostbite of that grisly failed American invasion of Canada in the dead of winter. Imagine every clash and blow at the Battle of Bosworth. Follow Eleanor of Aqua Tameral, the most powerful women in the medieval world as she goes on crusade to the holy land. With 300 handmaidens in tow, she leads her own army.

Hayden (56:01)

Everyone goes gaga for Eleanor.

Dan Snow (56:02)

And trace the voyage of the first Vikings as they arrive on Iceland's lonely shores. For the best historical stories to get lost in, check out Dan sneak history.

Adrian Goldsworthy (56:32)

So following Chaeronea, Philip's Macedonian empire, it stretches from modern day Bulgaria to the Adriatic Sea. Thessaly and now Greek cities like Corinth, Athens and Thebes are under his control. Not Sparta, but doesn't really matter too much to be fair at this moment in time. And he forms something called the League of Corinth, which is just very roughly because I know we can't go into too many details about it, but it's this idea that the Greeks retain their autonomy to quite a degree, but they agree to send troops to Philip in the future. And he at this time has now got eyes on the biggest prize of all, which is the big superpower to his east. Where is he looking next?

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (57:13)

He's looking at Persia, the big Achaemenid empire and the A. It's big, it's wealthy, it's powerful and you want to test yourself against somebody powerful, particularly somebody powerful who's got money. So if you're going to fight anybody you want someone who's going to, it's going to be profitable again. It's a modern name, the League of Corinth. It's an alliance, it's an agreement to work together and accept Philip as your hegemon, as your leader. But he isn't going to run your day to day affairs. You're still independent cities, it's just that you're a, you're part of this bigger struggle. The curious thing about all of this and that Alexander will take through is that you're saying you're doing this as revenge for the invasion by Xerxes in 480, 479 BC, and in particular for his desecration of the temples on the Acropolis in Athens. When he burns down Athens, this is revenge. The Persians attacked us best part of 150 years ago, but now they're for it.

Adrian Goldsworthy (58:06)

We've played the long game.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (58:07)

Exactly. I mean there have been these Panhellenic figures, these Greek writers coming out with pamphlets arguing that Greeks should stop Fighting each other. We should be friends with each other. If we group together, we could conquer the world, which means Persia. Let's go and make these barbarians our slaves and live off the fat of the land as proper Greek gentlemen. Various people, anyone who's become prominent in the last few decades has been approached by these people saying, you could be the leader to do this. So people have been coming to Philip to say this. It's all a bit thin in that not just 150 years have passed, but at the time the Macedonians were part of the Persian Empire and Alexander I fought with the Persian army and acted as ambassador for Xerxes. He did claim to change sides. He did claim to warn the Athenians before Plataea. And then afterwards, when the Persians are retreating, he attacks them, but it's distinctly iffy. And the Thebans, of course, had started off fighting the Persians, but had joined the Persians at Medis, as it was called. So, and you know, in the end when you think of the monument from Delphi, there's. There's not much more than been a little bit over 30 Greek cities accounted as having stayed the course and fought the Persians. So claiming suddenly that everyone's part of this. But it's a marvelous pretext, it's a great rallying cry. You've got former enemies, you've just defeated people. The best way to unite them is to jointly go and fight and hate somebody else and profit from it and win. And that's the way. So it's Philip. There's this rather wry comment from the Roman historian Justin later on that Philip made war like a merchant, that basically he gets the profits from one campaign and invests it in the next and

Adrian Goldsworthy (59:44)

gets a wife, almost gets a wife at the end of every war.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (59:47)

But there's an element of truth into it. Phillips created this empire that really needs warfare, needs victory and expansion. You could argue Napoleon was in a similar boat. He couldn't really stop this idea that he could have stopped and been peaceful, had peace with all the European nations. The economy has been based around rewarding your followers, bringing in plunder, plenty resources and being able to give land to all people who fight for you. The main reason they're loyal to you is because of all the victories. So it's difficult for anyone like this to stop, which of course will be a problem for Alexander as well.

Adrian Goldsworthy (60:20)

He really wants to highlight that point because this is 338bc Alexander, he's seeing his dad so victorious all around the place and now he's there and he would have been hearing about, you know, this preparation to invade Persia. And also the fact I remember talking to Professor Lloyd Llewellyn Jones about this, the Macedonian court where he would have been growing up. He would have seen Persian ambassadors. There's a lot of Persian culture that has influenced Macedonian culture. So it's not as if Persia is unknown to these Macedonians and, and the people, especially the governors of Persia on the western fringes in, across the Aegean, in what is a, you know, Anatolia today, ancient Asia Minor. So that's all happening. And there's also that story, isn't it, when Phillips in Greece he goes to Olympia and the building of the circular, the Philippe on an insider statues and it shows Philip, it shows Olympias, it shows Alexander. So that's all happening and it doesn't look like Philip's on death's door, is nearing his death at all at this time. With hindsight we know it's only two years, but then we get this important event for the young Alexander with, you know, it doesn't look good for him because Philip goes home and before invading Persia he decides to marry again. And this time the only of his marriages to actually a Macedonian noblewoman. And sometimes people say, well, he did it for love. But I think it's clear another political one. I think Elizabeth Carney and lots of other scholars said it already as well that, you know, it's the factions within the Macedonian nobility and he's appealing to that by marrying this lady called Eurydice, what becomes Cleopatra. But this becomes a problem for Alexander.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (61:59)

Well, it's again, the thing you have to remember about the Macedonian royal family is you're most likely to be killed by a relative or at least they've inspired the murder, even if they don't wield the blade or the poison. So there is clearly a lot more domestic politics going on. You've got these big clan heads that you've brought within a closer relationship to you and you've got control over them, but everybody has to look and think, well that's fine for the moment, but what's the future? And everybody wants to be on the winning side, they want to benefit from this. So you've got to keep everybody happy. Philip is only in his 40s, he's going off to fight this great war, might be marvelously successful, he might get killed. It might just go on for a long time with modest results. Previous Greek expeditions to Asia have not been that spectacular. You know, the Spartans have sort of marched around, burnt things down, plundered a bit Come home eventually. It's not been that big a deal. And it's all very well fighting in Thracians, even fighting the southern Greeks, Persia is a different matter. It's big. So it's one of those odd. You get the criticism for Alexander that he goes off to fight a war without leaving an heir. Philip seems to be trying to sort of, you know, belt and braces, make sure that he is fully covered, though even then. Yes, it turns out that his new wife is pregnant very quickly. Nobody knew that was going to happen. Nobody knew that child would survive. It's because, again, it's. Hindsight is our big problem. We know what this will provoke and it clearly does. You have the wedding feast story of, you know, the bride's drunken uncle talking about how we might at last get a legitimate, fully Macedonian in Alexander's face. That's the thing. But I mean, they're all plastered to the eyeballs. This is the culture of the Macedonian royal families get drunk a lot and you have these big parties from which all the decent women are excluded. This is just for the men. So this is, you know, a rugby club booze up where tempers flare. It's staggeringly tactless. You then get Philip torn between, well, do I back my son or do I back my. Sort of the new father in law effectively, and who's also drunk and doesn't know what's going on. And with all these situations, with hindsight, what somebody thinks they've heard and what's actually been said can be very different things. So it ends up with Alexander stomping off and going into sort of voluntary.

Adrian Goldsworthy (64:19)

He sends into exile. And his mum, Olympias also goes into exile as well. Yes.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (64:22)

And eventually being summoned back later on and told. But again, because we know what's going to happen, we don't know what was planned at the time. It's not at all clear what was going to happen to Alexander. When Philip does go off to fight the Asian war, is he to go with him? Is he to stay in Macedonia as regent there? We just don't know. There is no good indication.

Adrian Goldsworthy (64:45)

I think if you also look to that story mentioned earlier at Olympia where Philip puts a statue of Alexander with him. I think it's very clear that Philip still very much sees Alexander as the most likely, if not the person who's going to succeed him. And also maybe you're right, he's the moment they're drunk.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (65:03)

Yeah.

Adrian Goldsworthy (65:04)

Alexander goes into exile because you know what this new uncle has said, you know, find legitimate sons but it's the heat, the moment they're drunk. The fact that he is then recalled not long after suggests that those bridges are mended very quickly. And then you do get that story of the Pixodarus affair which we should also mention, which is, I find this one fascinating because it happens once Alexander's back in the fold and then he hears that this Persian aligned governor place called Halicarnassus, which will revisit in time, Pixadaris has seen Philip's growing power and is deciding, oh, and I'm also hearing about Philip's rumblings wanting to invade the Persian empire. I actually might throw my lot with Philip. And so they're negotiating. And what he reaches Alexander is that Alexander's elder brother Aridaeus we mentioned earlier, might have had some mental incapacity. The idea is that he would marry the daughter of Pixodarus or something like that. There's going to be a marriage alliance between the two. And it seems that Alexander just gets really jealous and he goes to Pixadaris and says, why are you marrying your daughter to this guy, my older half bro, you should be marrying me because I'm going to be the next heir. And so Pixodarus thinks that's great, let's do that. And then Philip hears about this and he's just like you absolute idiots. Why did you get involved in this? I didn't suggest marrying his daughter to you because you are more valuable. You're going to be the king, you're not going to marry just this lowly governor's daughter. And yet your jealousy, almost your insecurity, paranoia, that by some way I'm now preferring this other child of mine to you has made you mingle in this and ultimately causes the whole arrangement to fall flat. I just find that story fascinating in the context it is.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (66:48)

I mean, it's a reminder of the thing you mentioned earlier that the Macedonians are part of that broader Persian world. So it's not so unimaginable, the useful connection, but that sense, yes, of an Alexander who just can't read the political situation. And you do find this with Alexander, even when he's more mature, there's a sense that sometimes he can empathize very strongly, particularly with his soldiers, particularly with his men, and other times he's just got no idea what anybody else is thinking and really puts their backs up. And I think that it's here when you think Philip wasn't really married until his early 20s, he's after he becomes regent king, that he starts marrying. So there's no, as far as we can tell, particular pressure on Alexander to marry at this point. It does seem to be again a half heard and he's become very prickly clearly at this point. But there's an element of he knows that well, I'm the only adult physically mentally capable male heir that Philip's got. So I've got bargaining power from that point of view, but I don't want to be sidelined. He is clearly neurotic really about being push aside for somebody else. But there isn't any. And it seems interesting. It's an odd story. It doesn't fit with the Alexander, the always knows what's right, always does the best thing, always spectacularly ambitious almost. It would be easier in that mode to think of a story where Alexander rejects the proposed bride because, oh, she's not good enough for me. So it's an odd thing altogether. And particularly as he then shows no hurry at all to marry subsequently. So it's just very strange. But it does suggest this insecurity at that point which perhaps again we don't know enough about how the politics is working within the Macedonian setup. And again Philip is in his 40s. If he lives on for 30 years, is he going to want 45 year old, 50 year old Alexander to succeed him? And what's come along with that? So there is an element of you need to make sure you're important and stay important from the beginning. But it still just does seem a big misjudgment.

Adrian Goldsworthy (68:55)

It's also, it's fascinating that this happens just before which is, you know, Philip does not live for 30 more years. He lives only barely a few more months because he is assassinated at the wedding of his daughter, Alexander's sister to Olympias's brother, the new king of Molossia. Yeah, King of Hipparus. It's all very close family stuff. But he is, I mean it's this idea. It's a jilted lover, isn't it? One of his.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (69:20)

Not quite. It's supposed the tradition which partly goes back to Aristotle, so you'd think Aristotle would know is that this chap, Pausanias has been a favorite and lover of the king in the past. But the king's moved on and that's some time ago. More recently he has been insulted.

Adrian Goldsworthy (69:38)

Yes.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (69:39)

And then this leads to, you know, being gang raped by the slaves. You know, it's a really nasty, really brutal story. It's, it's, you know, a soap opera. Take it to a higher level and when he asks for recompense, you know, I. It's not that you're still my lover and it's this. We used to be. I used to matter to you. You should protect me. There should still be an obligation on your part that you, you continue to want me to succeed, want me to be successful, be my, my mental protector. That again, the whole issue of these sort of relationships in Greek society we sometimes emphasize the sex and forget the mentoring element and the, the long term connection. Even when you're adults and you don't still have a physical relationship. Seems a big deal. And Philip, well, Philip makes him one of his bodyguards. They've got these close bodyguards that actually stand next to the Macedonian king at all times, which in this case means that you can be there with a dagger to stab him. Nobody can stop you. Philip considers that to be an honor rather than punishing Attalus, the man who's responsible for all of this. And that is brooding. It comes back to this sense of honor for a Greek aristocrat. So it's not really passion or love in the same sense. It's about status. I have been someone, I should be treated better than this and you should treat me better than this. You have failed me as the friend, mentor, protector you should be because we used to be intimate. So it's a slightly different thing. But again, the suspicion at the time and subsequently is that it isn't just this crime of passion or this personal grudge that he's got, it's who is behind him. You know, why are there horses? He's running to get away. He gets killed before he can get to the what's been going on, who is behind it. And obviously Alexander's name gets mentioned, Olympias name gets mentioned. Alexander will promote the tradition that it's the Persians that have done it, which has a logic to it. Because if you've got this Macedonian king on your borders who sent a small expeditionary force to your territory and is promising to go more, knocking him off is actually the cheapest solution to. Rather than fighting a war. So it's a reasonable thing, which doesn't necessarily mean they were responsible, but they would certainly have been quite happy to hear the news.

Adrian Goldsworthy (71:54)

And you see the bribing of close lieutenants to people in the time of Alexander, before the time of Alexander and

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (72:00)

afterwards, from the origins of the Persian state. Cyrus, when he's going in all his conquests, he persuades somebody to defect. And the same with Darius I. It's how they do things. It's what they're doing in Greece, when they come in the 490s and the 480s, it's saying, Join us here, have some money. I can make you the most prominent man. So it's a well proven strategy and very successful one. So it's perfectly logical. On the other hand, the timing proves to be absolutely perfect for Alexander. And it's the whole sort of who does this benefit in any familiar. From all the murder mysteries we read that you can't help thinking Alexander does very well out of this.

Adrian Goldsworthy (72:43)

And the fact that, you know, you can see clear benefits for Alexander is why his name and his mother's name, Olympias, keeps going up, doesn't it? Even though I don't. I don't believe it. But you can see why that I think also physically, what's so good for Alexander at that time, although it's very clear that he's. The clear air at this time is he's on the scene, he is at the theater where Philip is publicly assassinated. And it's amazing, isn't it? You see, because. Because the succession is not official. You see clear members of the nobility, prominent members of the nobility kind of seeing that Alexander's there and almost straight away basically bringing his hand up, saying, this is the new king trying to make sure that Alexander doesn't think that they're going to be a problem for him.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (73:26)

You want to back a winner because if you put the new king in your debt, then he's going to favor you. So you want to work out who the new king's going to be. So there's very quick. And you get these deaths that follow with actually people who've. But they're all. It's a sort of horse trading. You're looking around and thinking, okay, which way is the wind blowing? Right, I'm going for him. And then it's all out. Because you don't want to make any mistakes and you don't want. You want him to feel suitably grateful and not thinking will not. Not to admit what he knows, that you've actually calculated that this is the best thing for you to do. But, I mean, the other striking thing, of course, is that at this big feast, Philip has summoned representatives from all the southern Greek states. So you've got all these people are watching and suddenly Philip, the man who's turned Macedonia into the local great power, gone. He's the man who's led all these armies to victory, who's won campaign after campaign. Then there's the thought, so you've not just got the audience of the Macedonians to deal with and convince, yes, I'm the rightful king, support me, I will keep on all the good things that have happened with Philip in charge, you've got all the other allies that you've coerced into this league you've created. Now they're thinking, well, okay, suddenly we've got this kid of 21ish coming along, 20, 21, what do we do? But it's not just that you are trying to work out, is he going to succeed? There's no point being friends with someone who's going to fail. And okay, he's done well at Chaeronea, he's got boundless self confidence, but that insecurity that his recent sort of poor decisions over the marriage proposal have highlighted. So is he going to win? Is Alexander worth befriending? Should I be frightened of Alexander? Is he someone I don't want to make an enemy? Is he someone I can afford to make an enemy? And there might be a better friend or it might be, is this when Macedonia goes fucked, collapses into chaos, infighting, civil war, which it's done so many times. One advantage that Alexander has is that Philip has killed off most of the wider Macedonian royal family in his earlier. A lot of those lines have come to an abrupt and violent end that were around so he doesn't face the challenges that Philip faced when he was in this precarious position as a new king.

Adrian Goldsworthy (75:36)

We'll just highlight some of the notable murders that that purge that does happen because it feels important just to mention briefly, and then we'll explore those first years of Alexander's reign before we wrap up this episode. But we mentioned earlier that uncle of Philip's newest queen, Attalus, who at that wedding feast said, you know, may you have legitimate sons. He wasn't present there at the time. He was actually with the Macedonian advance force that had already crossed over into Anatolia with the man who will be one of Alexander's key subordinates, Parmenion. And the message gets over to them and Parmenion saying, you've, you've got to pick a side now. Yeah, do you pick Alexander or do you pick Atlas? You can't have both. And he, although I think he's got a relation to Atlas, a marriage one he decides to sacrifice. Attilus kills Atlas. Sorry, I'll go through them quick. There's also because at this time, the Macedonian royal family, you have certain parts of the nobility which have smaller links to the royal line. And there's another family, a lynkestian family at Lynkestes, a region. And two of those brothers are. Are said to have been involved in the conspiracy against Philip. So that's a nice excuse to get rid of a potential threat there. The third brother is actually. He's very clever. He's on the scene when Alexander's there and he kind of saves himself for a period of time by saying, I'm supporting Alexander. But we'll mention that perhaps the most horrible one, which is the last wife of Philip, that Macedonian young noble woman who by this time has had two children with Philip, infant children. Supposedly it is the wicked stepmother Olympias, who they're pulled over a boiling hot bronze vessel and scorched to death, apparently. And apparently even Alexander is just horrified at the nature of the killing. How much we can believe that is not. We don't know. But I just wanted to highlight briefly, you know, as you mentioned, there are gruesome murders. There is that purge as soon as Alexander becomes king in one way, as horrible as it is to say, it is kind of necessary for him to do. But, you know, this is not bloodless.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (77:38)

It's probably similar things have happened at the point of succession with Macedonian kings before. Within this elite, this aristocracy, everybody's related to everybody else. There's been so much intermarriage that lots of people got a little bit of connection somewhere or other. It's striking. I suspect, again, it's the nature, because we're dealing with Alexander, that we hear about the execution murder of Cleopatra, the final wife. Normally we just hear about the men getting killed before and we don't always hear about all of them. So whether this is all the more shocking because you didn't normally kill the women or whether you normally did, but in the same way, you don't tell bother the sources, don't bother to tell us when they die, what happens to them. Anyway, you just didn't talk about it. So it raises all those sorts of questions. But it's clearly a purge that is necessary to a certain assert his power and is not by any means out of the normal in terms of what Macedonians are doing. Whether that last bit is. It's certainly something Alexander doesn't want associated with his name. Whether this really is. Olympias has for whatever reason, come to loathe this woman and her poor children. The children are not a threat at this stage. They won't be a threat for 15, 16, 20 years or so at best. So they didn't need to die. And it does add that real unpleasantness. But Again, remember, all of these people, we talk about them as names, we talk about their political ambitions, the balances, the balance of power, all this sort of thing. They are human beings. So there is emotion involved in all of this. And it comes back to. In the end, yes, the soap opera exaggerates things, but this is a very highly charged group of people with their ambitions, their fears are magnified because life is so dangerous and what they've just done to somebody else could happen to them. So you can't reject it out of hand and just say, this is all just, you know, sensationalist. It might be true, it might be not, it might not be. Clearly, the last wife and the children vanish, so the probability is they are executed. Attalus clearly goes. And again, it comes down to this. Well, who you. As you said, who is Parmenia going to back? And he doesn't have enough support. And that the decision you make on the day and what you say straight away can at least make you safe or get you killed very quickly. But everybody's gambling because again, we know this is Alexander the Great, the rest of the world, his contemporaries don't know that. Maybe people are thinking, oh, yeah, this kid's got talent. Has he got the luck? Is he going to last? Nobody knows.

Adrian Goldsworthy (80:15)

Well, it almost as the very last chapter of this episode, is a taster of the military stuff that is to come when he invades the Persian Empire, let's get to him like at what, the Dardanelles of the Hellespont about to invade Persia. And what people seem to forget is it's not straight away, there are two years between 336 and 334 BC where he is still in Europe and he has to consolidate his rule and talk us through. I know there are quite a bit, but in a few minutes, let's talk through these different campaigns because they're still really important.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (80:48)

So to mention, as you said earlier, Philip's built up this empire, really. He's become this great regional power and he's done that in a couple of decades, and he's done it through victory, military force backed by a lot of very savvy diplomacy. But you've made the Thracians, the Illyrians, the southern Greeks convinced that it's better to be your friend than your enemy. They know Philip, they don't know Alexander. Yes, you know, he's a promising young prince, but that's all he is. And they know from the past that Philip is the exception. Macedonian kings don't tend to last as Long don't tend to be so successful. So very quickly the Illyrians, the Thracians, groups within them start thinking, we don't need to be friends, the Macedonians anymore, let's assert ourselves. Because again, you come back to this sense of pride in your sage. You want to be considered strong, independent, that at the very least people have to be nice to you. Even if you're their ally, they have to respect you. Now you think, well, maybe we don't have to treat them that way at all. We can assert ourselves, we can become dominant. So they start to break away. Alexander has to prove that he is going to be another Philip, that he is. He can do all the things his father. He's still got his father's army. Will that army be as successful under him? Nobody knows that. You've got to prove it to the army. You've got to prove it to everybody else watching. And Alexander does this in a succession of campaigns. First of all, it's very much mountain warfare where he's fighting the Thracians, the Illyrians, and you have this one case where they're holding a pass and they're rolling wagons.

Adrian Goldsworthy (82:14)

It's the carts, the battle of carts.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (82:16)

But again, it's the drill. Now he's got the advantage that he has this superbly trained, very confident, very well practiced team. But again, he's got to convince them that he deserves to be their captain, their general, their commander. So this is part of a gradual process. Again, we tend to flick a switch and say, oh, it's Alexander the Great. He's wonderful at everything. He's genius as a leader, as a tactician. Therefore everybody realizes this and accepts him. This is how he starts to prove himself. And it takes years because the army he commands overwhelmingly, all the officers of Philip's men, and nearly all of them are significantly older than he is, far more experienced. When he manages to reassert his control, his dominance over those northern tribes, by this time Thebes, one of the big cities of Greece, has broken away from the elite. And he goes there, and the Thebans are thinking, well, we've been famous far longer than the Macedonians. We can do this. He goes there, he besieges Thebes, he storms the city, and then he abolishes Thebes. There are a lot of people killed. But the idea of going to a Greek city state as big as this and saying, that's it, it's gone, is shocking for Greeks. When you think after the Peloponnesian War, the Spartans beat the Athenians. Yes, they tear down the long walls to the harbor at the Piraeus. They weaken Athens. They don't destroy it, because partly when you do that, there's the danger. What happens to that land, the vacuum, all that. Everyone reasserts themselves. But Alexander shows that he's done something even Philip hasn't done. If you oppose him, you are dead. And that political extinction, being a citizen, being a Theban, is what matters to you more than anything else. And suddenly there is no Thebes. And Alexander has done this, and he's done it really quickly. And that is terrifying. It's why from then on, it's a long, long time before there's any more resistance. Trouble in southern Greece. You've got people like Demosthenes at Athens saying, I hope he dies in Asia. And you know, Whoopi, I think I've heard a rumor that he has, but the Athenians aren't listening.

Adrian Goldsworthy (84:16)

And actually, it's a spare thought for the Athenians. They almost join the Thebans. They don't.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (84:20)

Yeah.

Adrian Goldsworthy (84:21)

And Demosthenes, of all the figures, actually, you know, when there are later rumors of Alexander's death, he will actually be someone's voicing caution against it until it's clear that he's died because it's that prolonged and something that will just get deeper and deeper as we explore more on Alexander's career. Something so key to Alexander's story is people fear him, you know, so that. That kind of. That infamous reputation of Alexander, it spreads far and wide the further he goes,

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (84:47)

but it builds up gradually. Yeah, that's our danger, is that we think everybody should realize you don't mess with Alexander. But there's no reason to believe that at first. And things like the atrocity really at Thebes show that actually maybe we've got to think, you know, this is because again, Philip seems to have been the exception. He's been the Macedonian who's turned Macedonia around. But it'll just revert to the chaos. There's no reason to believe this kid can do the same thing. And you're forgetting that Philip was once a kid when he started doing. He was similar age when he becomes king. So it's a gradual thing, but it accumulates. It's like the, you know, the snowball rolling down the hill to turn into the Avalon. And in the end, you then start. You become. He becomes the Alexander we expect. But it takes time and he's got to prove it through spectacular success after spectacular success and a mixture of appalling ruthlessness and great generosity. You have the story at Thebes of this noblewoman who is mistreated, raped by a Thracian officer serving under Alexander's army. And then afterwards, he wants her money and her treasure. She says they're buried at the bottom of a well. She sort of gets him to the well, pushes him in, and then throws stones down to kill him. And Alexander rewards her and shows off. You know, this is a virtuous woman who has done what someone did. And that man went beyond what I want my men to do. So it's again, and you'll find this thread through the Persian wars of these gestures of great magnumanity, great kindness, great chivalry, almost. It'll be interpreted or reinterpreted in the later ages, along with the savagery, along with the kill them all and burn down their house. So that's the. That's why he's all the more scary. But it comes back to this idea of you want Alexander to be your friend because he could be a really nice friend. And he is an appalling enemy.

Adrian Goldsworthy (86:44)

This is what's all to come, isn't it, Adrian? In the following episodes. And my other little point there to mention is there's the story that he meets the bizarre philosopher Diogenes, also when he's down, who lives in a pot. He's not too impressed with Alexander. When Alexander goes to see this weird man, basically Diogenes just says, you're in my sunlight. That's the way. But why I always want to bring that one up just at the end. Not only is it a fun story to end this, this episode on, it's also the fact that throughout the campaigns that we'll explore in the next episodes, there are also these bizarre stories of him meeting these intellectuals far afield. And these different characters interacts with where you have these more out of the military, out of the destructive side of Alexander that. That adds another string to his bow as a character. I feel we've now got to the Hellespont, haven't we? Because the next step for Alexander, having gone from the Danube river to Thebes, he's now going to do what Philip was beginning. He's now going to invade the Persian Empire. And that's the next step. Adrian, such a pleasure to have you on the show. I'll see you very shortly for the next one.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (87:43)

It's been fun. Thanks.

Adrian Goldsworthy (87:48)

Well, there you go. There was episode one of our brand new Alexander the Great miniseries with myself and Dr. Adrian Goldsworthy. In the next episode, we'll delve Delve into Alexander the Great's invasion of the Persian Empire and great early battles like the Battle of the River Granicus, and finally his first great clash against the Persian King of Kings at the River Issus, King Darius iii. That's all to come in episode two. In the meantime, thank you so much for listening to this episode and I really do hope you enjoyed. Please follow the show show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps and you'll be doing us a big favor. Make sure that you follow the podcast as well so that you don't miss out when we release new episodes, including the follow up ones to this miniseries on Alexander the Great. If you'd also be kind enough to leave us a rating as well, well, we'd really appreciate that. Finally, don't forget, you can also sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original document documentaries with a new release every week. Sign up@historyhit.com subscribe. That is all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.

Host (possibly Dan Snow or main podcast host) (89:04)

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