The Ancients: Antony and Cleopatra

Host: Tristan Hughes (History Hit)
Guest: Dr. Daisy Dunn, historian and author
Date: November 9, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the legendary story of Antony and Cleopatra—two of antiquity’s most captivating figures. Host Tristan Hughes welcomes Dr. Daisy Dunn to separate myth from reality, exploring the politics, personalities, and propaganda that shaped their lives and legacies. Together, they trace the rise and fall of this iconic pair against the backdrop of the ending Roman Republic and Hellenistic Egypt, myth-busting the romantic legends and highlighting the true dynamics at the heart of their doomed alliance.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Enduring Allure of Antony and Cleopatra

[04:02–04:38]

• Dr. Dunn explains why Antony and Cleopatra remain iconic:

  “It’s just such a kind of iconic story, isn’t it? You have these two kind of impossibly glamorous and possibly sexy individuals who are kind of living and loving and then ultimately dying together… you see them falling and you kind of want to see in slow motion how they got to such a point.” (Dr. Daisy Dunn, 04:18)

• The duo is juxtaposed with their chief rival, Octavian (future Augustus), often portrayed as stuffy and moralizing (though he wasn’t above bending his own rules).

2. Setting the Historical Stage

[06:08–08:38]

• Mark Antony’s rise: Distinguished service under Julius Caesar, top general at Philippi, and alliance in the Second Triumvirate with Octavian and Lepidus.

  “This is really the high watermark of his career. He really performs excellently at Philippi...” (Dr. Daisy Dunn, 07:49)

• Division of Rome’s holdings:
  • Octavian—Italy (a ‘short straw’ due to post-war tensions)
  • Lepidus—North Africa
  • Antony—the Eastern provinces, including Egypt

3. Cleopatra’s Egypt and Early Political Drama

[09:29–13:41]

• Cleopatra VII, last of the Ptolemaic line, ascends amidst family conflict and civil war.
  • Marries/co-rules with her 10-year-old brother due to dynastic tradition.
  • Julius Caesar intervenes during sibling strife, installs Cleopatra as ruler, and fathers her son, Caesarion.

  “Her position is...slightly uncertain at that point. You know, Caesar’s dead. What does that actually mean for her?” (Dr. Daisy Dunn, 15:39)

• Cleopatra’s visit to Rome is a spectacle, marking her as both exotic and politically important.

4. Cleopatra’s Reign, Political Maneuvering, and Roman Intrigue

[16:48–17:54]

• Cleopatra balances internal crises (famine, grain supply) while maintaining relevance in Roman affairs.
• All Roman factions seek her support for their wars—she is seen as a valuable source of funds and influence.

5. The First Meeting: Tarsus and Theatrics

[19:21–23:26]

• Antony summons Cleopatra; she arrives in Tarsus (41 BC) on a barge in goddess-like splendor, overwhelming him with display and luxury.

  “She comes in on the most luxurious barge you can imagine...it’s covered in gold and it’s sort of reeking of incense… She’s done herself up as if she is a goddess.” (Dr. Daisy Dunn, 19:41)

• Their alliance is both romantic and transactional: Antony needs resources; Cleopatra seeks political security and dynastic restoration.

6. Scandal and War at Home: Fulvia and Octavian

[26:07–29:53]

• Antony’s Roman wife, Fulvia, stirs civil unrest (the Perusine War) during his absence; her actions reflect personal and political motivations.
• Octavian ultimately gains the upper hand; Fulvia’s role is later diminished by ancient historians as a jealous wife—Dunn critiques this as oversimplified.

7. The Political Marriage to Octavia

[30:12–33:50]

• Antony repairs his Roman alliance by marrying Octavia, Octavian’s sister, sidelining Cleopatra temporarily.
• This marriage is politically strategic, not merely romantic:

  “He always has an ulterior motive...he’s just thinking, all right, this is my business now. In the interest of the alliance, I’m gonna do this, go through the wedding.” (Dr. Daisy Dunn, 33:30)

8. The Parthian Campaign and Cleopatra’s Return

[35:06–39:20]

• Antony, craving military glory, plans an invasion of Parthia, hoping to rival Rome’s greatest victories.
• Cleopatra returns to prominence as Antony’s key supporter and financier; he grants her territory in exchange for support.

  “She’s getting something out of it. She’s not just there, you know, helping out her darling lover. She’s very much wanting her side...” (Dr. Daisy Dunn, 39:20)

9. The (Disastrous) Parthian Campaign and Its Aftermath

[39:29–43:40]

• Antony’s campaign collapses: poor planning, loss of supply lines, forced humiliating retreat.
• The post-campaign Donations of Alexandria: Antony publicly grants titles and kingdoms to Cleopatra and their children in a lavish ceremony, provoking Roman outrage.

  “He declares that Cleopatra is queen of kings. Caesarion is king of kings...This is totally mad. I mean, Octavian is not going to stand for it for one minute.” (Dr. Daisy Dunn, 42:52)

10. The Final Showdown: Downfall and Death

[44:09–54:13]

• Octavian leverages Antony’s actions as propaganda, framing him and Cleopatra as threats to Rome.
• Octavian divorces his own sister (Octavia) from Antony, escalates hostility.
• The Battle of Actium (31 BC):
  • Antony and Cleopatra’s formidable fleet outmatched by Agrippa’s naval skill and Octavian’s planning.
  • Cleopatra’s decision to flee becomes the turning point, leading to the couple’s total defeat.

  “They just didn’t have the kind of figure that Octavian does in Marcus Agrippa, because he masterminds this.” (Dr. Daisy Dunn, 46:54)

• The lovers retreat to Egypt; beset by despair and betrayal, they commit suicide in the aftermath.

  “He is wrenched up, lifted in through the window by these three women and he dies in her arms.” (Dr. Daisy Dunn, 51:52)

11. Legacy and Historical Reputation

[54:13–55:44]

• Shakespeare (via Plutarch) popularizes their tragic romance for the modern imagination.
• In Rome, Antony and Cleopatra are infamous: their children are largely eliminated or absorbed into the imperial order.
• Cleopatra becomes the enduring symbol of Egypt’s, and antiquity’s, lost golden age:

  “She’s the last pharaoh...this is a huge endpoint for the Romans. And they’re talking about her a lot.” (Dr. Daisy Dunn, 54:45)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I have no doubt...for a start, we know that she actually conceived two children. So you got the evidence there, we don’t need to speculate. She falls pregnant with twins...Alexander Helios and Cleopatra Selene. Helios means the sun, Selene means the moon. So she has the sun and moon twins. I mean, come on. Like, that’s amazing.”
  (Dr. Daisy Dunn, 23:35)

• “He says that the only way [Fulvia] could possibly try and grab him was to cause chaos...I don’t think that’s fair.”
  (Dr. Daisy Dunn, 29:32)

• “It’s a gift to Octavian really. He now kind of goes up the ante on the kind of propaganda campaign against Antony.”
  (Dr. Daisy Dunn, 44:09)

• “It’s a very memorable end to the story, isn’t it? It is kind of Romeo and Juliet-esque...their legacy has endured down to the present day, thanks largely to Shakespeare, shall we say?”
  (Tristan Hughes, 53:56)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 04:02 – The enduring story and cultural memory of Antony and Cleopatra
• 06:08–08:38 – Who was Mark Antony? How the political divisions after Caesar’s death shaped the context.
• 09:29–13:41 – Cleopatra’s early reign, family strife, and the intervention of Julius Caesar
• 19:21–23:26 – The dazzling Tarsus meeting: romance, power, and spectacle
• 26:07–29:53 – Fulvia’s war with Octavian and ancient misogyny in the sources
• 35:06–39:20 – The Parthian adventure and Antony’s renewed alliance with Cleopatra
• 43:40–44:09 – The Donations of Alexandria and Roman reaction
• 46:54–48:58 – Battle of Actium: why Antony and Cleopatra lost
• 51:52–54:13 – The deaths of Antony and Cleopatra; myth and reality
• 54:45 – Their legacy in Roman and later imaginations

Tone and Language

The conversation is lively, informed, and occasionally cheeky—balancing scholarly analysis with colorful, accessible explanations. Dr. Daisy Dunn’s expertise shines, answering the host’s enthusiastic and sometimes playful questions with wit and clarity.

Conclusion

Tristan Hughes and Dr. Daisy Dunn’s episode offers a nuanced, myth-busting journey through one of antiquity’s greatest dramas. Listeners come away with a fresh understanding of Antony and Cleopatra not as simple star-crossed lovers, but as shrewd political actors enmeshed in the seismic shifts of their day—a story of opulence, ambition, betrayal, and enduring fascination.