Host 2 (2:33)

So much fun and I hope you enjoy.

Host 1 (2:48)

Just over 2,000 years ago, the world witnessed the fall of ancient Egypt. And the rise of imperial Rome. Two civilizations closely intertwined in more ways than one. At the heart of this tale is one of history's most famous love stories. A Roman general and a Ptolemaic queen. Antony and Cleopatra. It's a story immortalized thanks to Shakespeare and so many others down through the centuries. But what's the truth behind these legendary lovers? How did their paths cross? Why did Antony's affair with Cleopatra become so despised in Rome? What were Cleopatra's motives behind the match?

Host 2 (3:28)

And how did it all end up.

Host 1 (3:30)

So tragically with a Mediterranean wide civil war that ended both the Roman Republic and. And Pharaonic Egypt. This is the story of Antony and Cleopatra with our guest, Dr. Daisy Dunn.

Host 2 (3:45)

Daisy Dunn, it is great to have you back on the show. It has been too long.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (3:48)

It has been too long.

Host 2 (3:50)

And we are talking about Anthony and Cleopatra. They must be one of the most famous lovers from ancient history and also a great symbol for two of these superpowers colliding Rome and Egypt.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (4:02)

They are, I mean, it's just, it's such a kind of iconic story, isn't it? If you say ancient world to anybody, they think Antony and Cleopatra.

Host 2 (4:09)

And why do you think their story, the allure of it, has endured down to the present day. So much so that everyone will know the names Antony and Cleopatra.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (4:18)

I mean, I think it's the intensity of it, don't you? I mean, I think it's just such a tragic story. You have these two kind of impossibly glamorous and possibly sexy individuals who are kind of living and loving and then ultimately dying together. And it's not going to be a sort of spoiler alert to anyone to say that they come to a really sticky end.

Host 2 (4:35)

That's the end of the show.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (4:38)

But I mean, it's a gift. I mean, you can see why people in cinema love it, writers love it. You can kind of just, you see them falling and you kind of want to see in slow motion how they got to such a point. How do these people who seem to be flying so high ultimately end up where they did?

Host 2 (4:54)

And is it that idea, you know, this sexy couple, their loving life in almost in. In contrast as well to their main opponent, Octavian, later the emperor Augustus, who's often seen as more of an upright character, I guess.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (5:06)

I think there's a bit of that as well. I mean, he looks kind of grey by comparison, doesn't he? I mean he's like, he's a young guy, but then he becomes emperor and he's all about Sort of morality, even though he's kind of breaking his own rules. He's actually a bit of a ladies man himself. But Mark Antony, much more lives up to that reputation.

Host 2 (5:22)

Absolutely. And that's kind of endured all the way to the present day, hasn't it, in a. In representations, on tv, in movies? I mean, ever since Shakespeare, over the last 500 years or so, there's always that depiction of Mark Antony as the playboy and Octavian as the other, and Cleopatra basically being a symbol of Mark Antony as a playboy.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (5:39)

I think that's true. I think that's true, and I think it's fair. I mean, all the sources you read describe Mark Antony as being with this woman, that woman. You know, he's with an actress one minute and then he's getting married and then he's cheating. You know, he does seem to be exactly what you call him, a playboy.

Host 2 (5:53)

Let's set the scene, first of all, with the background. Let's introduce these protagonists in our story today. When in time are we talking with the beginning of their story? This must be the mid first century B.C.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (6:08)

Thereabouts. Exactly. We're talking sort of 40s B.C. yeah.

Host 2 (6:12)

Let's introduce Mark Antony, first of all. What is his story? What's the situation with him as we get to the 40s BC?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (6:19)

So Mark Antony is one of the great figures of late Republican Rome. He's sort of distantly related to Julius Caesar on his mother's side, and he's served under Caesar. He's kind of been with him in Gaul. He has been Master of Horse to Caesar, which is kind of quite a fancy title. When Caesar was dictator and he was out of the city, Mark Antony was essentially in control. So he's almost like a deputy to Julius Caesar. He helps him to defeat Pompey the Great. So he's very much sort of up there. But it's really after the assassination of Caesar in 44 BC that Mark Antony comes into his own because he is sort of determined to sort of avenge the death of Caesar. But so is the heir of Caesar, who is the great nephew Octavian, who becomes the future Emperor Augustus. I think we'll call him Octavian to avoid confusion.

Host 2 (7:11)

He's Octavian today.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (7:13)

Exactly. And I mean, you can kind of see from the beginning you've got these two people who are very sort of wedded. They're very loyal to the idea of Caesar and there's going to be rivalry between them. And there is, but they do manage to pull together and to sort of form this alliance with A third character, who's Marcus Aemilius Lepidus, and we call this the second Triumvirate. And it was ratified by the Senate and it essentially allowed them to put on a united front to defeat the key assassins of Julius Caesar. And Antony really makes a name for himself at the Battle of Philippi in 42 BC. He's there he is with Octavian and I'd say, really, this is the kind of high watermark of his career. He really performs excellently at Philippi, and as a result of that victory over Brutus and Cassius and so the key assassins, he emerges on top. And then as part of this alliance, they're able to essentially carve up the empire into three parts to look after.

Host 2 (8:14)

Because it's very much, I mean, at the Battle of Philippi or the Battles of Philippi, isn't it? Mark Antony is the general, he's the man, the charismatic leader. He's got the military experience. And Octavian, although he's his ally, although he's got troops, he looks a bit of a wet rag in particular. It very much is Mark Antony's show. This is what he's good at. So winning a military victories this time, as you say, it really just rises his reputation even further.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (8:38)

It does. And I think he actually teases Octavian afterwards for kind of like sitting at a house and being a bit of a kind of, you know, wet kind of weekend of a man.

Host 2 (8:47)

So uneasy, uneasy allies right there. So it's looking good for Mark Antony at that time. I mean, which portion of the empire does he receive in that cutting up after Philippi?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (8:55)

So essentially Octavian takes Italy, which is a difficult. I mean, that sounds easy. It's not. That's almost the short straw in this because he's got to rehouse all the veterans. After the Battle of Philippi, there are lots of kind of land confiscations. People are being dispossessed. It creates chaos in Rome. Lepidus gets sort of North Africa. And Mark Anthony's focus is very much on the eastern provinces, which will then.

Host 2 (9:18)

Of course, include Egypt. So can you introduce us? Egypt at this time, what kind of kingdom is ruling Egypt and who is this pretty remarkable ruler?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (9:28)

Cleopatra.

Host 2 (9:29)

Oh, there we go.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (9:30)

Oh, there we go. So I love how we call her Cleopatra for a start. I find this kind of interesting because she's Cleopatra vii. Officially. She's not the only Cleopatra. She's not the first Cleopatra. She is essentially, she's part of this long line of Ptolemaic rulers. So Egypt's Been ruled by this kind of dynasty that's been passed down. We've got to go back to your favorite era, Alexander the Great, just temporarily.

Host 2 (9:52)

Fine. We can, we can.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (9:53)

I know, I know, I've got to indulge you. And so Ptolemy, general of Alexander the Great, trusted friend. He is the one who inherits the kind of Egyptian portion of the kingdom after Alexander's death. And the Ptolemies are descendants, essentially stuff from him. You get Ptolemy, Ptolemy, Ptolemy, Ptolemy. And then you get some girls in there as well.

Host 2 (10:13)

Yeah, more Cleopatras. Cleopatra, Cleopatra. They're not very diverse with their names, are they? They like a name and they stick to it.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (10:19)

They do. And Cleopatra's father was Ptolemy XII Auletes, the flute player. So indication of his musical interests there. And really he is sort of responsible for her coming to power initially. She's kind of co ruling with him. He dies in 51 BC and she is the eldest surviving child, so therefore she gets to rule. She is named as his heir, along with the eldest of her two younger brothers, who becomes Ptolemy xiii.

Host 2 (10:51)

It's pretty, you know, difficult to stomach today, but there was a lot of that brother, sister ruling and marriages in Ptolemaic Egypt, wasn't there? And Cleopatra VII was the next in line for that.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (11:01)

Exactly. And it's really difficult to understand, I think today if people say, ooh, you know, isn't that weird? Isn't that strange? And I think we are not really looking at a kind of sexual relationship between the two of them at the beginning at least. I mean, she is 18 and he's about 10. So we can't really go there. We can't go there. But I mean, the really difficult thing is they don't get on. And almost immediately civil war breaks out between these two siblings wanting sort of sole rule or kind of at least kind of dominance over the rule of Egypt. And it really gets very, very messy. Long story short, Julius Caesar comes in and cleans it all up for them. How much detail should I go into here? It's difficult.

Host 2 (11:41)

Let's explore it a bit. I mean, I also want to mention that in my opinion, the Ptolemies must be one of the most, if not the most dysfunctional family from the whole of history. And that's saying something in itself. But I feel they just go an extra step, including the Julio Claudians, I must admit. But yes. Come on then, let's introduce Julius Caesar. How does he shake things up? And it's. This ends up well for Cleopatra, it does.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (12:02)

He arrives in Alexandria and he I mean, his first goal really is to try and reconcile the two siblings and to honour the agreement that these two will be co rulers of Egypt, which is what the father had wanted. But it's incredibly difficult. I mean, Cleopatra's been driven out during this. They're really at loggerheads. And so you have something called the Alexandrian war developing. And I mean, the difficulty for Caesar is he's having to deal with a lot of men on the side of Cleopatra's brother. Because he's only 10 years old, he's very much under the thumb of his advisors, his tutors. One of them is a eunuch, you know, got these kind of crazy long list of people. They are very much kind of calling the shots on his side. When the war breaks out, Ptolemy actually ends up drowning during it. So he is out of the picture. And the relationship between Caesar and Cleopatra develops in that period and a child is conceived.

Host 2 (13:00)

They go on a romantic trip down the Nile as well, don't they? Caesar has a little sojourn in Egypt with Cleopatra. It all seems rather lovely.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (13:06)

I love the descriptions of it as well. It's so sort of romantic of the two of them just kind of gliding along, having a wonderful this is my kingdom, this is my kingdom, you know, enjoy it. And they have a son. And this is actually great news for Cleopatra because she's having to then rule with her other brother, who's Ptolemy xiv. And she doesn't really want to be with him either. And you know, a little later on, there's pretty good evidence that she actually poisons him to get him out of the way so that she can make Caesarion her child by Caesar, her co ruler instead.

Host 2 (13:37)

Caesarion. There we go. Well, how do we then get to this time when Cleopatra does become the sole ruler? Because we've still got to get through what you mentioned earlier, the assassination of Julius Caesar.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (13:47)

We do. And really interestingly, she's actually in Rome at the time of the assassination, which I don't remember even sort of learning at school. You always picture her as being over in Egypt, don't you? Don't kind of think about.

Host 2 (13:58)

And to actually make that voyage is quite something in itself with all the pageantry that there must have been showing that she was a pharaoh of Egypt arriving in Rome, being so different to what, you know, a Roman woman was expected to be. And, you know, it is a big episode when she goes to Rome.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (14:11)

It is, it is. It's very, very much so. All the pomp and ceremony is laid on for her. She is Staying not right in the middle of Rome, which I think is interesting. She is now in the area of kind of Trastevere in Rome, which is quite the cool side, you know, speaking to Rome. So she's across the Tiber, but she's not right in the kind of thick of it. But she's there, you know, with her, with Caesarion. She's there meeting a lot of very important wealthy romans. And in 46, Caesar actually officially recognizes her as the ruler of Egypt and as a friend of the Roman people. And the Romans had done the same for her father. But it's really very much kind of cementing the fact that she is there in power.

Host 2 (14:48)

Do you think it's likely that Mark Antony would have met Cleopatra that far back when she was the consort of Julius Caesar?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (14:56)

I think almost certainly. I can't imagine him not meeting her when she was in Rome. It seems that most people were who were sort of in power in those kind of circles were meeting her. And to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if they hadn't actually met a little bit earlier as well, because there was a point in her father's rule when he was actually deposed. He ended up sort of being shifted from his throne and he had to come to Rome, and Rome actually helped him to regain his power. And I think in that process, I mean, there's a strong possibility, I think, that Antony would have met her. She'd have been young at that stage, but quite possibly, I think they've certainly known each other, I reckon, before they actually get together.

Host 2 (15:32)

Absolutely. Well, Julius Caesar is assassinated. So what happens to Cleopatra after that? I'm guessing she goes back to Egypt.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (15:39)

She does go back to Egypt. We know that from Cicero. He describes her as sort of standing back. And that letter, I think, is about a month later. So she doesn't stick around. And I think. I mean, her position is slightly uncertain at that point. You know, Caesar's dead. What does that actually mean for her?

Host 2 (15:53)

I mean, she could potentially have been targeted in Rome. Possibly. Right. If there were the enemies of Julius Caesar hanging about.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (15:58)

Exactly. I mean, I think she just actually doesn't know. I think that's my impression. She doesn't really know what this means for her. She's determined to get back to safety, get there with cesarean, you know, get out of the way and probably lay low for a little bit.

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Host 2 (16:48)

How powerful does she then become in those years, whilst Mark Anthony and Octavian, they're rising to the fore and they ultimately fight the likes of Cassius and Brutus at Philippi. What does Cleopatra been doing up in Egypt?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (16:59)

She. I mean, she's tempted to deal with quite a difficult situation in Egypt. For a start, there's a lot of kind of social problems, there's famine, there's trying to sort of organize the grain supply, all this kind of stuff. So she's trying to be a sort of good ruler to her people. And I think from a Roman perspective, she's still seen to be incredibly sort of useful to them. I mean, so much so that. I mean, Cassius had actually asked her for supplies and ships.

Host 2 (17:23)

They're all asking for help.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (17:24)

They all see her as the money. That's the thing, she is the money and she knows that. So she knows she's. She could actually potentially be useful. So I think that's what her position is. I think at that point, the money.

Host 2 (17:33)

Bags, I'm guessing, is how important that is when they're fighting the wars against each other as well. And the manpower. I mean, does Egypt, I'm presumably has a lot of sway over places like Judea and Syria as well, being such a big Hellenistic power. Yes. It's not the great reaches that it had been under early Ptolemies, but still that legacy of influence must be there as well.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (17:54)

Absolutely, yeah. We're not talking about Alexandria in isolation. I think it's really easy to lose track of the fact that actually there's got quite a wide dominion here and there are sort of feelers going out in all directions.

Host 2 (18:05)

So Cassius tries. Does he succeed? Does he fail? Do we have Cleopatra's troops on their side at Philippi?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (18:10)

No, it's actually. It's a really complicated sort of situation. I mean, this is the thing, I think when Antony and Cleopatra initially get together, Antony's actually summoning her quite with a lot of reproach. He's actually upset. He's like, I've heard that you've been helping out Cassius. You know, whose side are you on? I mean, that's how their relationship begins. Which isn't a very good beginning, is it, for a relationship? She says, oh, no, I can explain. And essentially, I think Cassius had been going on and on and on at Cleopatra for help, and she had been prevaricating. She kind of didn't really want to supply him with tubes. There's some indication that she was sending some supplies to Dolabella, who was another kind of key Roman who was at that point governor of Syria, which Cassius could potentially intercept. And she ended up trying to send ships instead to, to Mark Antony and to Octavian, but they didn't actually get there. They were actually wrecked in a storm. So it's kind of like a non story, but it creates a little bit of tension between her and Antony at the beginning.

Host 2 (19:08)

So is it kind of damaging that Hellenistic reputation of their great warships being like the most impregnable military vessels of the time? And then you lose them, you lose them in the storm. Trying to go for this fight.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (19:18)

It just shows you nothing is certain, is it?

Host 2 (19:21)

No, absolutely not. Well, it's also really interesting, a bit of a side note. You've got big bad King Herod trying to carve out his kind of take back his kingdom Judea right next door as this is all happening. But Cleopatra does go up to modern day Turkey to meet Mark Antony. So what is this?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (19:38)

There are two separate meetings, you're right. The first one is Tarsus. This is when they first get. This is in 41 BC and they have this kind of splendid meeting. I have to say, this is all full glamour, this situation. Antony arrives and as I said, it's been a little bit difficult between them. She kind of keeps him waiting. She comes in on the most luxurious barge you can imagine. And this barge has purple sails, it has silver oars, it's covered in gold and it's sort of reeking of incense. It's the most luxurious, splendid kind of barge you could possibly imagine. And Antony sees her and he's like, oh my goodness. Like you can imagine this kind of gawping face because she has done herself up as if she is a goddess. Isis, which is a goddess that she identified with, some sources say Aphrodite, the attributes are quite similar. Well, ever she looks like a goddess and she's surrounded by these attendant women who are done up as nymphs. And we've said, you know, Antony's a playboy, he's in heaven right now. I mean, the source, I think it's Plutarch, one of our great sources on their story. He's the greatest biographer, Greek biographer, writing the first century. So not too far, far removed in time. He says that Mark Antony was, you know, a man. I think he's about 42 at this stage. And he says he's almost like a youth. He was completely captivated by her beauty by her intellect, and he just sort of reduced to being almost like a boy.

Host 2 (21:02)

Seems so easy for her to do at the same time with all the luxuries that she throws at him. I mean, but quite the fact. She'd done her homework knowing that Anthony was coming there with the thought of telling her off. And then she just completely flips the script by just showing how powerful, beautiful, you know, she is a pharaoh of Egypt. And she keeps him waiting.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (21:22)

She keeps him waiting, which I love. I love the whole idea that she actually is then sort of taking control, and she's saying, this is what we're gonna do. She then has him to dinner, and that's even more extravagant because, I mean, bear in mind, she's on her home turf, so she has access to all these lovely things. What's he supposed to bring? It's like, you know, you're going to like a really nice house and you don't know what to bring. You can't bring some after eight, so you've got to bring something really nice. He's got nothing really to deliver.

Host 2 (21:45)

Bring a helmet, bring a sword. I don't know, a cloak.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (21:48)

But I think she really feels this, because what we read is that he enters this amazing room, which is beautifully lit, and everything is sort of gold. All the cutlery, all the kind of goblets. Everything is gold and beautiful. And there are wall hangings and there are beautiful chairs. And then she says, oh, at the end of the evening, you can take home whatever you like. She knows he can't compete. I mean, he's like. He's the traveler here. You know, he doesn't have the sort of wherewithal to be able to provide in this way.

Host 2 (22:15)

How does he react to all of this? Is it very much hook, line and sinker from start to end? I mean, what does he do next?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (22:22)

Well, I mean, I think it's really easy to kind of get wrapped up in the romance of all of this. Like, it is kind of transactional at the same time as being this great sort of love story. I think at this point, he is very aware that he needs to get something out of Cleopatra. You know, he is there. He needs to pay off his legions from Philippi for a start. He has ambitions in the East. She has the money. He doesn't have the fleet. You know, she has the possibility of actually helping him. So there's something there. And she. At the same time, she needs some kind of support and I think and sort of assurance. And she's certainly worried about her situation. In Egypt particularly, I think there's a problem with her sister. She has an older sister called Arsinoe, who at one point, she actually declares herself to be the ruler of Egypt. And she really. She wants her out of the way and Antony's going to help her to do that. So, I mean, there's something on each side for both of them. And I think because of that, they end up kind of extending their time together. So you see them actually wintering together all the way through, sort of 41 into 40 in Alexandria, having this kind of lovely time.

Host 2 (23:26)

So Antony does go from meeting Cleopatra Tarsus to. To going back with her to Alexandria. And do we think this is when their relationship does become sexual?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (23:35)

Yes. Yeah, I have no doubt. Because, I mean, for a start, we know that she actually conceived two children. So you got the evidence there, we don't need to speculate. She falls pregnant with twins. She calls them. I love their names, they're amazing. Alexander Helios and Cleopatra, Selene. And Helios means the sun, Selene means the moon. So she has the sun and moon twins. I mean, come on. Like, that's amazing.

Host 2 (24:00)

Very celestial and the world above kind of thing like that. Do you think she really had this idea, she bought completely into the belief that, you know, she was divine, or her position, you know, in the Ptolemaic dynasty as a pharaoh meant that her and her offspring, you know, whether it was with Julius Caesar or Mark Anthony, that they would be divine too?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (24:18)

I think there's this idea that's definitely. It's intrinsic to rulers, though, in history, isn't it, that you've got some kind of divine support to the fact that you've actually been selected to be ruler. You feel like there's something special running through your blood. And I think Cleopatra is no exception for that.

Host 2 (24:33)

Meanwhile, back in Rome, poor old Octavian trying to sort out the veterans and the like, being upright, or maybe not as upright as, you know, we sometimes portray him as. What's the reaction in Rome as they're hearing all of these reports from the east about Antony now wintering in Alexandria, having a whale of a time with Cleopatra and so on?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (24:52)

Well, I imagine they're hearing quite a lot of the gossip. I mean, we have quite outlandish stories which are in our sources, which I imagine is the sort of thing which is being spoken about in Rome. So these very sort of luxurious dinner parties, Cleopatra drinking a pearl. You know, that lovely story. She drinks a pearl. It's fantastic. So in one of those many very extravagant dinners Together, she bets Mark Antony that she could consume the equivalent of 10 million sesterces, sesterces being the Roman currency, in a single banquet. And then he says, oh, you can't. And she says, I can. And then she takes a huge pearl from her ear and she supposedly dissolves it in vinegar in a cup and drinks it. And people have been debating for centuries whether this is actually possible, but it just gives you an idea of the kind of life that they're living and the kind of stories which might have been sort of circulating in Rome. You have the opposite extreme of that as well. You have the two of them dressing up in disguise as paupers and looking into the windows of the poor people in Alexandria just to kind of see. I mean, can you imagine if our royal family did that? I mean, the PR is potentially absolutely catastrophic.

Host 2 (26:00)

Later, we have emperors like Nero and the like who do that, kind of dressing up and concealing themselves to say. To kind of mingle with everyday people.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (26:07)

Yeah, exactly. And if you get caught, I mean, the repercussions are quite bad. So I think the Romans are definitely hearing gossip and hearing scandalous gossip, and they are not pleased about it because Mark Antony's married. He has a Roman wife called Fulvia.

Host 2 (26:23)

Well, yeah. So Fulvia also feels important to introduce to the story at the moment because, you know, she is still Mark Antony's wife at the end of the day. And she's in Italy.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (26:31)

She's in Italy. Poor Fulvia. To my mind, she's one of the most amazing women of this period. She has two little sons with Mark Antony. So while Cleopatra's giving birth, she's there sort of raising these two boys, and she is trying to keep his end up essentially in Rome. She is coming to loggerheads with Octavian, and they seem to have had a very difficult relationship. And this seems to stem back from the fact that she gave her daughter by a previous marriage, Claudia, to Octavian in marriage. And she and Octavian. And Octavian returns Claudia, the daughter to her, and he says, it's okay. She's still a virgin. I haven't touched her. But for Fulvia, this is like the last straw. And she decides to actually whip up war against him. This is extraordinary. She actually goes to Mark Antony's brother, Lucius, and we have something called the Perusine War breaking out at this time. So it's 41 to 40 BC. So exactly that period where Antony and Cleopatra are together. It ends up being this kind of extraordinary showdown in the city of Perugia. And it turns into a siege. We actually have these kind of slingshot bullets, which I love. Have you seen them?

Host 2 (27:41)

I have. I love these slingshot bullets because they always have some quite crude messages on as well, don't they?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (27:45)

They're foul. Like, translating them makes you blush. I mean, like, you have some of these.

Host 2 (27:49)

We're going to do Tiberius later. I know what, that makes you blush. I'm going to warm up.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (27:52)

We're going to warm up. So some of them are saying things like, I'm aiming for Octavian's asshole. And then I prefer the ones for Fulvia. They're saying things like, I'm aiming for Fulvia's clitoris, which is quite, you know, quite anatomical for that time. I mean, I can't think of another word. So these have been found. But I mean, the really sad thing was Fulvia is instrumental in that. She's seen to be this sort of key player. She is gathering troops, she's supposedly holding onto a sword, addressing the men. But it all goes disastrously wrong and the side of Octavian ends up getting the upper hand. They starve the citizens of Perugia into submission and Fulvia and Lucius are spared. But about 300 senators who'd been on their side are supposedly sacrificed on the altar of Julius Caesar.

Host 2 (28:39)

Yeah, well, I didn't realise how many senators went in to support them. Because initially, if you just say the Perusaline War and Perugia, it feels like one city against the entirety of Roman Italy, but actually seems like it wasn't actually as clean cut as that. As simple as that, that Octavian always had the upper hand. But he does ultimately win out.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (28:56)

He does win out. And then this is disastrous, really, because, I mean, the historians of the time, I'm talking about sort of Plutarch and then also sort of Cassius Dio and other sort of. So he's writing a bit later, second to third century. They are really, really hard on Fulvia. They say that her whole kind of ideal of creating this war, her kind of objective was to get Antony home. She'd heard the rumors about the affair with Cleopatra and they think. They say, well, the only way she could possibly try and grab him was to cause chaos, basically, initially and get him home. I don't think that's fair.

Host 2 (29:32)

Is that a classic trope, isn't it? It makes it too black and white, saying one woman was jealous of the other, so they tried to get the husband back by doing something like that.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (29:40)

Exactly. I really think she was feeling the fact that Octavian was getting the upper hand and she was trying to sort of do something for her husband, to kind of help his hand while he's away all this time. But it's just not recognised in that way.

Host 2 (29:53)

And he said her family's pinned her colours, you know, to that faction. And when Mark Anthony hears all about this and how it ultimately goes Octavian's way, does that actually force him to act, though?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (30:05)

Well, he's furious. I mean, he's not happy about it.

Host 2 (30:08)

He's furious with his wife and his brother or with Octavian?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (30:12)

Well, kind of both. But he's mainly Fulvia, because, I mean, Fulvia really wants to meet him after this and he agrees to do so. So they meet up in Greece. She sails all the way there with the two boys and there's this very sort of brief, perfunctory reunion, and then he just leaves her and he goes off because he's been summoned to a conference with Octavian back in Italy, in Brundisium, so right in the south of Italy. And it's really difficult because Fulvia then dies. She's fallen unwell. When she's in Greece, he's gone back to Italy just to try and patch things up with Octavian. And, I mean, that does work. I mean, there's this sort of renewal of this triumvirate, this alliance for power. Their kind of special areas are slightly altered insofar as Octavian now has a big problem confronting him in Sicily. Sextus Pompeius.

Host 2 (31:00)

Sextus Pompey, isn't he?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (31:01)

Yes, he's the son of Pompey the Great and he's at large. He seems to be sort of causing a lot of chaos with the grain supply, which is coming via the waters of Sicily into Italy, and there's no fleet at that point to really deal with him. So you have Marcus Agrippa, who I love, by the way. I mean, he is. Forget Mark Hansley, Mark Griffith is the guy, he's the man. He's the one who arranges a Slovenia harbor, he builds up a fleet, he trains about 20,000 former slaves to form a kind of navy and to see off the threat of sexist Pompey. So all of that is going on and this is going to be sort of Octavian's focus going forward. The relationship, as I said, is renewed. So the situation from Mark Antony, he's having to look much more into kind of Parthia, sort of Iranian kingdom we're talking about. So it's renewed and then the whole Deal is sealed. They often have a marriage to seal the deal. When these alliances are made, this is a very, very sort of Roman thing. And Mark Antony agrees to marry the sister of Octavian. She's Octavia. And he. I mean, he should have been really happy about this because she is so popular. She's one of the most popular women in Rome. All the sources are. They just describe her as extraordinary. She's beautiful, she's kind, she's everything you'd possibly want. And because she's so popular, that ought to sort of rub off well on Mark Antony, because his popularity has taken a downturn since his relationship with Cleopatra and all the gossip about that. So by marrying Octavia, he should be kind of on the rise at this point. And they seem to have, like, a very happy beginning to their wedding. By all accounts, Cleopatra's kind of out of the picture suddenly, which is astonishing. We've got her so sort of prominent in our sources, and then suddenly, Mark Antony's there. He's beginning a new family life. He's married to Octavia. They have two daughters by 37 BC, so they're very much, you know, seem to be having a happy life. And they're based largely in Athens, actually.

Host 2 (32:56)

But I think that once again shows, as you mentioned earlier, how the story of Antony and Cleopatra is not a love story or not just a love story, it's a political unity. And earlier on, in the 30s, near 40, 41, Mark Antony saw benefits of being with Cleopatra at the time. But now he's had this offer of Octavia and this peace with Octavian, renewed peace. And he sees that actually that is the better opportunity for him at the time. So it seems like, as you were saying, maybe at least early on, he does realise that actually Octavia's a better bet for him than Cleopatra at this time.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (33:30)

I think almost certainly he knows what he's got to do. He's had this sort of situation in Rome and in Perugia, and he's just thinking, all right, this is my business now. In the interest of the alliance, I'm gonna do this, go through the wedding. And, you know, you kind of. You just. At this point, I think I'm praying for Octavia, thinking, I just hope that this works out well for her, you know, completely.

Host 2 (33:50)

And also, you did mention there in passing, it feels a good time to introduce him to the story. Cause he will come back later, won't he? The figure, the one and only Agrippa and his building of a fleet, which also feels important. Cause he's Not a navy man at that time, but he has to learn the ropes from the beginning.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (34:05)

He does. And he's one of those extraordinary figures where he seems to have come from quite a modest, humble beginning. We don't know very much about his childhood. And he ends up being educated alongside the future Octavians. They meet when they're very young, just before Octavian becomes the heir of Caesar. And so he becomes a very trusted sort of deputy to him very, very early on. And he has a great military beginning, but he doesn't have naval experience at all. And he's called in to deal with Sextus Pompeius. He has to learn it all himself. And he does. He just seems to. He's one of those characters, whatever situation he's thrown into, he seems to just excel in. I mean, he's extraordinary whether it's the.

Host 2 (34:42)

Sewers of Rome or the straits of Messina, isn't it? He's an amazing story and he's important for when we go on later. And such a vital asset for Octavian. Well, let's keep moving the story forwards. It all looks quite nice for Mark Antony. You know, peace with Octavian once again, marriage to Octavia. When does he start looking back east? When does Cleopatra come back into the fold?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (35:06)

He seems to get the itch after just a few years. And like, forget a seven year itch. Seven years. God, that would be something for Mark Antony. He is getting itched.

Host 2 (35:15)

Can't control himself.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (35:16)

He can't control himself. But again, it's not just. You'd like to think, okay, he's just really missing Cleopatra. He has an ulterior motive. He always has an ulterior motive. 37 BC. He starts to think, I really want to invade Parthia. And I think at this point he's really aware of the fact that he hasn't really had any great military victory since Philippi. A long time has passed. He's got nothing really to his name. He lacks the legitimacy of Octavian. Octavian is the chosen successor of Julius Caesar. What does Mark Anthony have? Like, he doesn't seem to have anything. He kind of thinks in Rome, the only real way you can win glory is by conquering a foreign enemy. So he did well at Philippi. Great. But that's a civil war, you know, that's not the same.

Host 2 (36:05)

It's Roman on Roman, isn't it?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (36:06)

It's Roman. It's not the same as conquering a foreign people.

Host 2 (36:09)

You can't really do a triumph if you're fighting Romans, can you as well because ultimately you'll be celebrating killing fellow fellow citizens.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (36:15)

That's exactly. You can't get the triumph. The triumph is the great sort of celebration that all military leaders aspire to. He wants one of those. And the biggest one you can possibly get at this time is over Parthia. Because there's. I mean, Rome has beef with Parthia not that far long ago in time. So sort of 53 BC, there's a real difficulty. There's a humiliating loss of the Romans to the Parthia. So this is Crassus, this is Carrhae.

Host 2 (36:43)

This is.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (36:43)

This is the loss of the Roman standards, the eagles, legions and just pride. So Romans feel that they need to avenge that. And Mark Anthony thinks that he's the guy to do that.

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Host 2 (38:10)

So he has that ulterior motive of going to Parthia. So Cleopatra must be given her power at the time in Egypt, you know, the clear ally to get close to for this motive.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (38:21)

Yes, absolutely. And he sees that she's the one who can fund this. She can potentially get, you know, fleets to him and help him out with this. And he actually goes back, he meets her in Antioch. He grants her territories, which is quite extraordinary. He gives her a list of them, like Phoenicia, Cyprus. And these are places essentially which had been within the domain of the Ptolemies back in history. So he kind of feels like he's giving them back to her. And in return, he wants her help. And he manages to get it so that he can actually launch his invasion in early 36.

Host 2 (38:55)

But that's so interesting, I feel, maybe not the secret motive, but that is a clear motive of Cleopatra, isn't it? She is living at a time when she's hearing all the stories of how powerful the Ptolemaic dynasty once was the great Hellenistic superpower, you know, beating the Seleucids and so on. And she wants to kind of revive that golden age of Ptolemaic power. And she sees Mark Antony as the person through which she can do it, and she achieves it with those territories that he gives her.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (39:20)

Exactly, exactly. So she's getting something out of it. She's not just there, you know, helping out her darling lover. I mean, she's very much wanting her side and she's getting it.

Host 2 (39:29)

So how does the war go?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (39:31)

The war is a disaster. You can almost see it written on the wall, can't you? I think you can almost anticipate that this is going to be a disaster for Francine, because he wants it so much, you know, it's terrible. I mean, she supplies him with ships and with money, and he sets out and he has this kind of quite complicated plan. He decides he's going to invade via Armenia, and Rome is allied with Armenia at this point, and they decide they're going to go via the sort of. From the south of the Euphrates. Cleopatra kind of accompanies him part of the way. And this is a really long journey for an army. This is such a long journey. Antony's right at the front. He goes and lays siege to a particular town, which is Media, and you can ask me where that is. I just look at your face.

Host 2 (40:19)

Media is northern Iran and it's northern Iran.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (40:20)

So it's this kind of Iranian Azerbaijan.

Host 2 (40:23)

Yes.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (40:23)

Right. So he is laying siege that. He thinks it's gonna be easy. It's not. He just doesn't seem to be able to break through. And meanwhile, he's got. Coming up the rear, he's got his baggage train. And this is a vast baggage train. It's got all his siege engines. It's slower to move. It's got all the pack animals. You know, it's slow. And he makes the sort of fatal mistake of putting two of his less experienced legions in charge of this baggage train. And the Parthians think, ah, I know what we're going to do. They attack his baggage train, they kill those legions, and there's absolutely no sort of supplies then for Antony. And he's there besieging, besieging, besieging, but not getting anywhere. He blames the Armenian cavalry for letting him down and actually getting him out of this difficult situation. Probably slightly unfair. This is kind of bad planning on his part, and ultimately he just has to recede. He has to withdraw. And as he's withdrawing. His men are absolutely exhausted. They are hungry. There are no supplies for him. And he ends up having to go back to Cleopatra with his tail between his legs. They reconvene near modern Beirut. And he's. I mean, he's thought, this is going to be the making of him. But actually, the Parthian expedition was the breaking of him.

Host 2 (41:35)

The breaking. Oh, great line, great line. So does Cleopatra welcome him back? Because I feel we're now getting to a time where it's almost, even though he suffered this loss, still quite a high point in their relationship with this thing called the donations of Alexandria.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (41:48)

Yes. So this is a kind of. Again, you could see this as a disaster PR wise or as a very good vision of what Antony was envisaging for the future. Possibly both. I think likely both. So they come together again. The donations for Alexandria is this really bizarre event. He is on a high because he manages in the meantime to score a victory over the Armenians, who he thinks.

Host 2 (42:13)

Had let him down, who he blames. Okay, right. Yeah.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (42:15)

So he dresses up as Dionysus, as you do. Yeah, he has a celebration for that. And then you have the donations in the gymnasium. And so it's great sort of open space. He appears, I'd say, probably, almost certainly in the disguise of Dionysus again. Cleopatra's definitely in Isis gear again. They love dressing up, these two. They really like their dressing up. They sit down on two gold thrones and they have their children with them. And they've got three children by now because they've recommenced their relationships. They've got the twins and they've got another son, who is Ptolemy Philadelphus.

Host 2 (42:50)

Okay. Oh, so Ptolemy. Okay, there you go.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (42:52)

Another Ptolemy. You gotta have another one. And then Caesarion as well. Caesarion, I think, is about 13 years old at this point, and they're on kind of mini thrones, which I think is quite cute. And Mark Antony declares that Cleopatra is queen of kings. Caesarion is king of kings. They are official rulers of Egypt. He says that one of the twin son. The twin son, rather, he has control over Parthia. He says that the girl has Sirenica. He gives all these kind of territories to them. And this is kind of a symbolic thing because, I mean, they're not really his to give, if you know what I mean. Like, they're declared to be sort of rulers and have ownership of these places and he doesn't. And this is just totally mad. I mean, it's pie in the sky. I mean, it really is. I mean, Octavian is not going to stand for it for one minute.

Host 2 (43:40)

Overstepping the mark. And you know, and Cyrenaicus, that's kind of Libya today, the Benghazi area.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (43:45)

Exactly.

Host 2 (43:45)

Kind of spur in the land. So they're kind of showing off their power and seemingly giving territories, calling themselves kings and queens, which must be. Yeah, exactly. Also a Roman calling himself, you know, a king or being associated with royalty. Should have learned something from Julius Caesar there, you feel. But he evidently hasn't. How does this result in the complete breakdown of relations with Octavian?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (44:09)

Octavian loses it. I mean, it's a gift to Octavian really. He now kind of goes up the ante on the kind of propaganda campaign against Antony. He goes and retrieves his will, which is kept in the guard of the vestal virgins. And he claims to reveal to the people what it says. And he says that Antony intends to leave his property to his heirs. His true heirs are going to be Cleopatra and the Egyptian family essentially, not his Roman born children.

Host 2 (44:37)

And Octavia is out of the picture now as well, is she?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (44:39)

Well, he is horrible. I mean, she goes over and tries to sort of reconvene with him. She does her best, but ultimately he serves her with divorce papers. Wow.

Host 2 (44:47)

Okay. It feels like Mark Antony has crossed his own Rubicon, or should we call crossed his Nile by this point. There's no going back to then serve divorce papers to Octavia. Octavian's already raging and he's just decided, right, well, let's do this then.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (45:02)

I think there's nothing he can really do. He's outlawed by the Senate. He seems to be a threat. They seem to be very worried in Rome that he might end up ruling Rome from Alexandria. And Octavian declares war on Cleopatra. Cleopatra alone. Interesting.

Host 2 (45:17)

Okay, okay. And is that how he frames it in the Senate as well? You know, this barbarian queen, this non Roman queen who's now a threat to the state of Rome.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (45:25)

Precisely.

Host 2 (45:27)

And so how does it go from there? How do they prepare for this big climactic war which is the climax to the Antony and Cleopatra story.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (45:34)

It is. So we're coming up to the battle of Actium. Tristan, I know it's a favorite of yours.

Host 2 (45:38)

Well, almost as good as Alexander.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (45:40)

Yeah, you're quite right. So this is going to be like the final showdown between Octavian and Antony. And I say Octavian, I say Marcus Agrippa is really playing the major role here on the kind of Octavian side. Antony tries to send Cleopatra away. He says, you know, go to safety. She refuses. She Wants to stay with him for this. And I think it's not just, you know, love that's binding them at this stage. I feel like emotionally they are invested in this together. They're in it together.

Host 2 (46:05)

How many years have they now been together? It must be a good five, six or seven years by this time.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (46:09)

Oh, yeah, more than that. They were coming up for. So Tarsus, I think was 41. Battle of Actium's happening beginning of September.

Host 2 (46:15)

31St and take out a couple of years when he's gone back to Italy and reconciled with Octavia for a bit.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (46:20)

But it's 10 years. Elizabeth breaks.

Host 2 (46:21)

Okay, right. And so Mark Antony, by this time he's gathered a large army from the eastern portion of the empire Actium. So that's kind of northwest Greece, that kind of the bay almost in Epirus Arta today and Bracia. So a big land army, but also big navies, you'd think with the Ptolemaic support. You know, as mentioned earlier, the Hellenistic superpowers are known for their massive warships, like their sevens, eights, nines, tens. So like the dreadnoughts of the ancient world against the Roman ships. You would think that they had the advantage.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (46:54)

They should have had the advantage. They absolutely should have had the advantage. But they just didn't have the kind of figure that Octavian does in Marcus Agrippa because he masterminds this. I mean, he manages to sail over with their fleet. He's actually going to be using sort of smaller ships in this, which ends up being penny. It ends up being a good idea. He manages to seize some of Antony's supply ships en route, which kind of spooks him. They take over Corfu, so they can kind of use that as a naval base, which is a good move. And then Marcus Agrippa essentially organizes a blockade. So you can imagine Actium as being kind of like a crescent shaped bay. And you've got Antony's boats, and then Cleopatra had her own armada of 60, a kind of reserve armada which is lined up behind. And then you've got these boats and there's basically like a massive standoff between these two sides. And you kind of gradually you get sort of firing of missiles between ships. They're just kind of waiting for something to happen. And it's ultimately it's one of Antony's side, one of the ships starts to move forward. And that provides the opportunity for Marcus Agrippa to really get things going. And what we're really seeing there is kind of like ramming of individual ships and there's a lot of kind of fire. But it's slightly murky in the sources. Because when you read the sources, you think this is a total damp squib of a battle.

Host 2 (48:13)

Speak for yourself.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (48:15)

But at the same time, you read that there are 5,000 losses. And it's unclear whether that's on Antony and Cleopatra's side or that's overall. But that's quite a lot. I mean, that's considerable, right, for a relatively small bay. But what happens in the event is that as these two sides are engaging, water opens up between the two and Cleopatra just decides to sort of sail through it and sail off. And, I mean, in my own. I kind of think this was always going to be the plan. I just don't think Mark Antony would have let her be part of this had it not been for her having, like, an escape route. So she takes it. Antony sails after her. He leaves then his ships to be kind of finished off by Octavian. And at that point, it's game over for them.

Host 2 (48:58)

Which is complete opposite to the Mark Antony of earlier years, you know, who's fighting with his men in the mountains of Northern Italy or whatever. And he's always there with them and then he just runs off. It also screams in a weird kind of way, like the Battle of Salamis or something like that, with Queen Artsymesia and the like. And almost a trope of the powerful queen then making a break for it out of it. So I don't know how much we can believe of it or not.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (49:18)

I know it's tricky. It is tricky. Our accounts of acting were really problematic. And I absolutely think there are shades of Artemisia as she's the sole naval female commander in the Greco Persian Wars. And I kind of think that was very much in the historian's mind as they were describing that. But Cleopatra isn't a hero in the same way. Artemisia is kind of hailed as being a heroine.

Host 2 (49:35)

There you go. Well, you know more than I do on that. And we could nerd out. Well, I could nerd out on the military details of Actium, but we certainly. I'll spare you the pain of that for the moment. We'll move on to the end so they don't die at the bastard of Actium. But it's a clear crushing victory for Octavian and Agrippa. Mark Antony abandons his army and his navy. They retreat to Egypt. And this is almost famous from Shakespeare. This is the last act of the two together.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (50:00)

Yeah. And I kind of say Shakespeare isn't a terrible source for this because actually he was taking most of the plot of this part of the play from Plutarch, who was our main source on this. And it's very much wrapped in romance and it's very difficult to know exactly what to believe. But I mean, there's a sense of dejection, particularly on Anthony's side. Earlier in the kind of heyday of their romance, they'd been this kind of great couple in love and they had this sort of society of inimitables, they called it. They kill that off and become partners in death, this is what we're told. So she, I mean she, for her part, Cleopatra tries to raise a navy, she tries to raise some ships in the kind of Red Sea region, but every which way is blocked by Octavian and the alliances that he has formed. So it's incredibly difficult in the Red Sea as well.

Host 2 (50:45)

That feels just out of the way anyway.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (50:46)

Yeah, I know, but she kind of has this plan. I kind of think she might have been wanting to go away. There was some speculation she was wanting to get to India to send Caesarean off there, but she just can't get away. So she knows that she's trapped. So what she do? She traps herself even more. She goes to the mausoleum that she was building and she seals herself inside with two of her serving women who are eras and Carmion. And she sends notice to tell Antony that she's dead. And he hears this and then he resolves to commit suicide. And he can't do it himself, it seems. He asks one of his slaves called Eros to do it for him. Eros kills himself. Antony then tries to stab himself, but he's not very good at doing it, so he fails on that front. And ultimately what we're told is that he is bleeding. Cleopatra hears that he is, you know, in a bad way and asks for him to be brought to her mausoleum, to her tomb. And it's a two story mausoleum. They've sealed themselves in so he can't come in through the door. He is wrenched up, lifted in through the window by these three women and he dies in her arms.

Host 2 (51:52)

So they die together in Cleopatra's mausoleum. Where that is, we don't know.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (51:57)

A bit of mystery. Under the sea, I would say.

Host 2 (51:59)

Under the sea, Lochias Peninsula way, probably. And then. So Cleopatra is the last one standing.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (52:04)

She's the last one standing. So we know that she outlives Mark Antony and she is trying very much to bargain with Octavian. She is determined to save Caesarion. She really was trying to get Egypt really to be inherited by her children. At one point, Octavian says, you know, we'll look after you. We'll be fine for you if you give up. Antony, this is sort of earlier in the situation. At this point, it just becomes a lot of negotiations between the walls. And it becomes so bad on her side. She's basically. She knows what Octavian wants, which is to drag her alive as a prisoner, show her off in his great parade that he's gonna celebrate afterwards for his victory in Rome. That's the last thing she wants. So she tries to commit suicide by cutting herself. She's stopped by the Romans, she's dragged off to the palace, and she has to make other plans. And, I mean, Plutarch tells us that she's been actually investigating poisons and other means of trying to kill herself for some time. And the great famous story is that she gets what she wants. She gets the poisonous snakes. An asp is what we're told in the source, under a pile of figs in a basket brought to her door. And then it's a bite that kills her. It seems unlikely, doesn't it?

Host 2 (53:15)

Yes.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (53:15)

I mean, some historians have tried to say, well, it must have been a cobra. It might have been another kind of snake. I think the most convincing thing we get from this is that after she does actually succumb, there are said to be puncture marks on her arm. And I think maybe people thought. Looked at those and thought snake. I mean, most kind of rational people probably would have looked at that and thought needle or like fatal injection of some kind. I think she probably did poison herself. I think she probably had a supply of poison.

Host 2 (53:41)

She had faced injections back then. Can they do that?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (53:43)

Well, they can inject with such sharp objects.

Host 2 (53:45)

Right, okay. Yes. And also, if you're handing figs to someone, surely you can smuggle also a knife or something that isn't a poisonous snake beneath the figs, can't you? But it's a knife.

Host 1 (53:53)

Kind of.

Host 2 (53:54)

I was gonna say romantic. Maybe not romantic.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (53:56)

Not romantic.

Host 2 (53:57)

Yeah, no, maybe not that. But you know what I mean, It's a very memorable end to the story, isn't it? It is kind of Romeo and Juliet esque are, you know, kind of dying so close together, and yet they are ultimately the losers. I mean, their legacy has endured down to the present day, thanks largely to Shakespeare, shall we say?

Dr. Daisy Dunn (54:13)

Yes, absolutely. Shakespeare we have to thank for that. And as I said, he's using Plutarch. And I think this is a really nice way to sort of look at the story. It's an accessible way of understanding it.

Host 2 (54:22)

How do you think Antony and Cleopatra's legacy, whether endured at all in roman imagination after 30 BC, when Octavian becomes the top dog, he will ultimately become Emperor Augustus. Do you think actually their story is popular in Roman times, or it is only later with Shakespeare and now down to the present day that we have it like front and center? When we think ancient history, I think.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (54:45)

People are definitely talking about it partly because there are efforts then to kind of kill off her dynasty entirely. Caesarion is killed as a threat to Octavian. He's 16 at that point. The eldest son of Antony. Ditto. The younger ones are actually raised by darling Octavia, you know, Wonder Woman. And the daughter grows up, she manages to. She gets married to King Juba, the future king from Mauritania. So, you know, there is some future for them. But she and Cleopatra is the last of the Ptolemaic rulers of Egypt. She's the last pharaoh. And I think this is a huge endpoint for the Romans. And they're talking about her a lot. We're told that actually statues of her kept up in some areas. So I think people want to remember her and want to talk about her, but from the kind of Roman perspective, it's very much a key victory.

Host 2 (55:35)

Daisy, I could ask so many more questions about this, but we have to finish here. What a story to do. Anthony and Cleopatra. It just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the show.

Dr. Daisy Dunn (55:44)

It's my pleasure.

Host 1 (55:49)

Well, there you go. There was the one and only Dr. Daisy Dunn returning to the show to talk through the story, the legendary story.

Host 2 (55:55)

Of Anthony and Cleopatra.

Host 1 (55:57)

I hope you enjoyed the episode, an.

Host 2 (55:59)

Episode which you can now also watch on our New Ancients YouTube channel.

Host 1 (56:05)

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Host 2 (56:17)

Well, we'd really appreciate that.

Host 1 (56:19)

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