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- [00:01]
Tristan Hughes
Thanks for listening to the Ancients. You can get all history hit podcasts, ad free early access and bonus episodes along with hundreds of original history documentaries by subscribing. Head over to historyhit.com subscribe hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds.
- [00:16]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [00:39]
Dr. Alex Imri
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- [00:44]
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- [01:27]
Tristan Hughes
It'S early 211 AD. The Roman emperor Septimius Severus lies on his deathbed in York. His two sons, already proclaimed emperors, stand nearby. They're young and roughly the same age. Both have enjoyed incredibly lavish upbringings, driving chariots around Rome, hampered by yes men and indulging in the countless luxuries of palace life. But there's one massive problem they cannot stay one another. Hatred between these two brothers ran deep. Severus wanted his two sons to rule together, to display peace and harmony coexisting and cooperating at the peak of power. But these two young men, well, they had a very different idea. As soon as their father died, the clock was ticking and it would end in blood, in murder, in fratricide. It's the ancients on history hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and today we're adding to the massive ancient history hype around the release of Gladiator 2. The movie is set a couple of decades after the original and features a number of characters loosely based on real figures, including the two young, colorful emperors Caracalla and Geta, these brothers who ruled together in the early third century A.D. although not for very long, thanks to this new movie. The names Caracalla And Guetta have risen to the fore.
- [03:00]
So who were the real Caracalla and Guetta?
- [03:03]
What do we know about them? Their rise to power, their relationship with one another, or lack of that, is what we're going to explore. Our guest is Dr. Alex Imri from the University of Edinburgh. Now, I've known Alex for many years. He even marked one of my papers when I was an undergraduate at the University of Edinburgh back in the 2010s. Alex, he's a great speaker who has been on the podcast in the past to talk through the stories of both Commodus, another infamous Roman emperor, famously played by Joaquin Phoenix in the original Gladiator, the original villain. And Alex, he's also been on to talk through the story of Caracalla in depth.
- [03:43]
What a chaotic story this is.
- [03:45]
Let's get into it.
- [03:47]
Alex, it is such a pleasure to have you back on the podcast.
- [03:50]
Dr. Alex Imri
I am thrilled to be here. It's a really exciting time to be a sovereign historian, so can't wait to get going.
- [03:55]
Tristan Hughes
It's exciting to have you back on because I remember I said you're University of Edinburgh, so I've very fond memories of studying back then and I believe you have had a look at some of my papers back when I was at university too. So the tables have turned. But I'm always very, very glad to get you on the podcast and as you've hinted at there to talk about these emperors that feature, they're right at the heart of Gladiator 2. I mean, how are you feeling that your historical figures, I mean, that you've studied for years, are now at the center of one of the biggest ancient history movies of recent times.
- [04:28]
Dr. Alex Imri
I know. I mean, it's incredible. For somebody like me, this is just a pot of gold. I mean, if you'd asked me a decade ago when I first started studying these as a postgraduate student, would I expect any filmmaker, let alone somebody like Ridley Scott, to devote time to the Severn family? I would say, well, I hope so, but I don't expect it. So I am absolutely psyched. It's brilliant. I mean, I'm sure on, like, the Twitter sphere, there's going to be a bunch of historians really already nitpicking, but I am truly excited.
- [04:56]
Tristan Hughes
I think you're right. And I think with this new release, there is that more and more kind of popular interest in who these figures are. And yes, we can. We will explore, like, the true figures of who these emperors are, what the sources say. And yes, I'm sure Gladiator 2 won't be a completely accurate to that, but it is gathering interest, isn't it? It is because of that that we're doing interviews like this so that people can then go and find out the real stories behind these titanic Roman emperors.
- [05:24]
Dr. Alex Imri
That's exactly it. I mean, I think about my own route into classics, and while I would love to say I was kind of immersed in classical literature from a very young age, that simply isn't the case. I mean, I started getting into the ancient past through watching things like Spartacus. And, you know, you have no idea how distraught I was to learn that there was no I'm Spartacus moment with Kirk Douglas. But that was the kind of vehicle that got me into the ancient past. And so, yes, having seen the trailers alone, there will be inaccuracies, there will be points where the directors have made some very interesting choices. But as a piece of mass media, it's worth its weight in gold to ancient historians like us to draw in people to learn more, because the actual history behind these characters is just as entertaining, if not more so, I'd suggest.
- [06:11]
Tristan Hughes
I think you're absolutely right and that's one of the key things that we're really going to delve into in this episode. But first thing, a bit of an overarching question. First of all, Alex, who are Caracalla and Geta?
- [06:22]
Dr. Alex Imri
So Caracalla and Geta are the two sons of the Roman Emperor Septimius Severus. Now, Septimius Severus is known commonly as the African Emperor. Certainly he comes from modern day Libya and is really the only emperor at that point to have come from that part of the Roman Empire to hold the imperial power. So Severus seizes power in a coup in the year 193, and by then he has his two sons. They're sort of. They're not even 10 years old at that point. Caracalla is born in 188, Geta's born in 189. So only 11 months separate them age. And they are princes from a very early period.
- [07:03]
Tristan Hughes
So since the Geta is the younger of the two. But as you've highlighted there, it's not like a huge amount of years between them. They are roughly of a similar age.
- [07:11]
Dr. Alex Imri
That's correct, yep. It's a common thing. The sources that we might come on to later to infantilize Geta a little bit just because he's that younger brother, but in actual fact there is only, as I say, about 11 months separating them. They are remarkably close as brothers and.
- [07:26]
Tristan Hughes
What are these sources that we have to really understand, like the great stories that we have surrounding these two figures and this whole time period?
- [07:34]
Dr. Alex Imri
So listeners, if they've dropped into my previous engagements with history, hit the ancients, this will probably sound like a little bit of a broken record to them.
- [07:41]
Tristan Hughes
But we always got into my man, we've always got to do it.
- [07:45]
Dr. Alex Imri
Absolutely. I'm always happy to talk about these sources because there's a lot to say. We have three main sources that we work with for reestablishing the history of Caracalla and Geta as individuals. Ironically, two of them really don't say a tremendous amount about Geta in particular. And we will come onto that sort of distinction maybe later. We have firstly, the historian Cassius Dio. Now, Cassius Dio was a senator during the sort of later Antonine era under Marcus Aurelius and Commodus, and served as a senator through the early Severan period as well. He writes about his contemporary era in a very dour way. He's not tremendously fond of any of the Severan rulers, it has to be said. And so we have a fairly negative character portrait of Caracalla built up very early. And very little is said about Geta until about midway through that contemporary account. The other source we have that is near contemporary is the author Herodion. He's probably writing a little bit further into the third century. We get a little bit more maybe of Geta's personality coming through in that source, but the focus tends to be very much on the mutual animosity that builds between the two brothers. Now, ironically, the best source we have for constructing anything that we might have to consider character portraits of these two comes from the Historia Augusta. Now, this is a very late 4th century, maybe even early 5th century set of Latin biographies. And the caliber or the quality of this set of works is still a huge matter of academic disagreement. Historically, people thought they were just absolute trash. They were fictionalized accounts that just pooled facts and indeed sources out of the air. There was a bit of a shift back in recent years to think that these might be kind of clever literary games going on within the set of biographies that comprises the ha. Whereas now, more recently, people are thinking that the author of the Historia Augusta is really reliant on other late Latin historians, such as Aurelius Victor. And there's been a couple of really good publications about that particular relationship in recent years.
- [09:44]
Tristan Hughes
It has quite a lot of colorful information. I'm guessing that they, you know, and it's debating Whether it's truth or fiction. Is that what we're kind of looking at there?
- [09:52]
Dr. Alex Imri
That's absolutely right. We get very clearly defined character pictures of both men, both boys, through these lives, through these biographies. But whether there is much truth to them is another matter.
- [10:03]
Tristan Hughes
Okay, so let's go back to the beginning with Caracalla and geta, so late 180s AD and then that last decade of the second century AD. I mean Alexandria paint us a picture of the world that these two brothers are born into, because it's a really interesting time of change in the Roman Empire and also that can kind of link us in with key figures from Gladiator one and another figure that you've done an episode with us before about Commodus, so kind of piece that all together this kind of rise in status of Caracalla and Geta and that whole decade at that time.
- [10:38]
Dr. Alex Imri
So when the two boys are born, so 188 and 189, they're born into an empire which is, with hindsight we can see is coming to the end of one particular era, the Antonine era. This has been the so called golden age, the Pax Romana, where we've had emperors transition power peacefully and stably for the best part of a century. At that point, this is the end of the era that really commences with Nerva and Trajan. And Marcus Aurelius is regarded to be the final good emperor in that set of five cover the second century. Now Marcus Aurelius is not just the kind of sagely Richard Harris type character that we see in Gladiator 1, and it's only in some later Latin sources that we have this question of Marcus Aurelius maybe regretting having to hand over the empire to Commodus, which is again what we see with the Richard Harris version, the history. The reality is though, that there doesn't seem to be this moment where Marcus Aurelius says that he's going to restore the Republic. I mean that was never really a reality at this point. In the end Empire, what happens is Marcus Aurelius hands over the reins of power, or brings in rather his son Commodus to share imperial rule with them. He brings Commodus in in the mid-swan 70s following a bit of a fright for his own regime, which is where one of his provincial governors, the governor of Egypt, Ovidius Cassius, rises in revolt. Now there's a lot of convoluted literary tragedy that's sort of injected into that tale, but ultimately the reality is Marcus Aurelius has been frightened that his regime isn't tremendously safe. And so he brings Commodus in as the official future of the dynasty. He'd been made a Caesar as a young boy, that heir apparent. He was made a co emperor alongside Marcus Aurelius, really for the last decade, pretty much of Marcus Aurelius reign. Now, when Marcus Aurelius dies, Commodus is the last man standing. He is the only emperor. There is no shared principate like we've seen in other in the earlier phase of Marcus Aurelius rule. And we appear to have a fairly stable first couple of years of Commodus reign. There is a question of whether there's a bit of internal plotting going on. And from the outset, Commodus, it seems, is faced with a bit of unpopularity within the senatorial order especially. This is something that's reflected in Gladiator 1, where we have, I think it's Derek Jacoby, give us the voice of the Senate, who are none too impressed with the rather showy, flashy, wannabe gladiator that is the Emperor Commodus. And we have this sense that Commodus is kind of just going from one small crisis to another across the 180s. And this culminates around the year 190 or 191, where we have a great fire in Rome as well. So nothing seems to be going tremendously well for Commodus and he is assassinated at the very close of the year 192. So when Caracalla and Geta are born in the late 180s, they're in an empire that is, I think, in the midst of what will become painful change. It's a painful transitional process. Now, they couldn't have predicted that, obviously at this point. When Caracall and Geta are born, their father doesn't even seem to be anywhere close to the imperial throne. He is just one of many regional governors. He is the governor of Gallia Lugdunensis, so a section of Gaul, modern day France, the headquarters or the capital of which is in modern Lyon. So it's a fairly cosmopolitan city by Roman standards in the Latin West. And they're probably brought up as relatively well to do aristocratic children in the first couple of years now they moved to Rome before the fatal events.
- [14:22]
Tristan Hughes
So as aristocratic children. So I'm guessing learning Latin, learning what it meant to be a civilized Roman, I'm guessing.
- [14:27]
Dr. Alex Imri
Absolutely. So brought up in not just Latin, but trained in Greek as well. Greek being pretty much the lingua franca at this point. Rather than Latin, and given all sorts of insights into the cultural capital that one will need as a well to do Roman. So they'll be trained in oratory and rhetoric, they'll be given education about history and philosophy. It's a fairly rounded or multifaceted education for a young up and coming Roman child at that point. And they'll have been drilled into with stories of great heroes like Alexander the Great, who will become much, much lauded by Caracalla in particular later.
- [15:03]
Tristan Hughes
So from those beginnings in Lyon, in Lugdunum, in Gaul. So where does their journey take them, following, as you've hinted at, this great turmoil, starts to seize the empire.
- [15:13]
Dr. Alex Imri
So it's interesting in as much as, from what we can establish in the sources, it doesn't seem like the children follow their father through his later gubernatorial roles, because Severus, their father will become governor of Upper Pannonia, so a very militarized region on the Danube frontier. And he will be in that position in the year 192, 193, when Commodus is murdered. And we have a variety of crises affecting the Empire within a very short order. The children, it seems, are in the city of Rome. From what we can establish, this just reflects the fact that they're not tremendously important characters, maybe in their own right, being so young at this point, but they are housed in the capitol. Now, we can tell that because when civil war begins and Severus starts to march on Rome, eventually the boys have to be ushered out of the capitol in secret, seems. So there's a suggestion there that they were just living a fairly regular life as far as Roman aristocratic children can, but had to be ushered out of the city at a point where there may have been danger to their lives owing to their father's attempt to take the imperial throne.
- [16:21]
Tristan Hughes
So this is almost like they could either be taken, they could either be killed outright or be taken as hostages in this time where and say, so this is the 193so year of the five emperors, which is a massive time. And Severus is making this big play, isn't he? So all of a sudden his young children, Caracalla and Geta, I mean, not of their own choice, but because of their father's actions, like their trajectory, the whole trajectory of their life has changed depending on the outcome of Severus actions of his March on Rome, 100%.
- [16:50]
Dr. Alex Imri
I mean, when 193 starts, even then there's no real sense that Severus is even in consideration, as it were, for Becoming an emperor, we have the throne handed to the aged, very experienced senator and multifaceted governor Helvius Pertinax. And in many ways he seems the ideal candidate for the throne. He has a wealth of senatorial and military and gubernatorial experience. He seems to be the man to kind of take hold of the reins again and restore a little bit of stability to the Roman state. After the arguably wilder eccentricities of Commodus final years, with all the games and all the wannabe Hercules type vibes that were coming out of Commodus's regime then that regime of Pertinax however, crashes within like two or three months. It's only I think 80, 87 days, I think. No, 86 days, I beg your pardon, before he is assassinated by his Praetorian Guard. And it's at that point that we have the infamous episode, the Auction of the Empire, as Cassius Dio calls it, where we have a couple of senators bidding to receive the good graces of the Praetorian Guard. Now that's in Rome. The winner of that is one Didius Julianus, who is apparently very wealthy, but doesn't seem to be terribly well equipped to actually rule an empire. Now that he's got it, maybe a bit of buyer's remorse comes in quite quickly. Now it's at that point that we see Severus raising his standard, his legions in Pannonia they acclaim him Emperor. And as he's not alone, there are a couple of other regional governors who are also proclaimed Emperor at this point we have Clodius Albinus in Britain and we have Piscanius Niger in Syria, both at the head of multi legion forces. But Severus being on the Danube frontier, is physically the closest and this allows him to perform what is effectively a lightning march on the capital. And Dio and Herodian, the sources tend to agree that he meets very little resistance on the way. This is on the one hand a marker of maybe Julianus rank unpopularity with pretty much everybody, but it's also, I think, a. It's also an indicator of just how much military force Severus has behind him on that frontier. Being able to persuade not only his own legions, but a couple of neighbouring governors to back his cause as well. There's very little to oppose him at this point. But his children are at risk, they could be taken hostage. I would imagine that would be the most likely outcome of events if Julianus had been able to take custody of them.
- [19:16]
Tristan Hughes
But he doesn't. And so what happens? So Severus is He, victorious, Severus is.
- [19:21]
Dr. Alex Imri
Absolutely victorious over Didius Julianus in an extraordinarily short period. As I say, he marches from Pannonia, meets basically no resistance, enters into Rome, he receives the quick acclamation of the Senate. Julianus is cast away, he's declared a public enemy and is murdered in the imperial palace in relatively short order. Then Severus has a successful march into the capital itself. Now it's interesting here that Dio and Herodian offer a slightly different takes on that. In one telling we have Severus marching in full armor, his army behind him, a very unsubtle image of imperial power projected. But in another telling, he stops at the gates almost and then changes out of his armor into a toga and comes in in a very civil mode of introduction to the Roman capital. The reality is though, the army is behind them in either case, it doesn't really matter what he's wearing. There is very little ambiguity about who or where the real power resides. And so it's no surprise really then that the Senate I opt to support his claim in the year 193. Now Severus will spend the next four years fighting civil wars. Albinus and Niger will not give up without a fight.
- [20:27]
Tristan Hughes
Those are other rivals who won the throne, aren't they? The other claimants? Yes, that's Albinus.
- [20:31]
Dr. Alex Imri
So he goes against Peskenius Niger in Syria first. He spends the first year and a half of his reign waging a war to the east against the Syrian legions, which he manages to conclude relatively swiftly, relatively successfully. And it's at that point that Caracalla becomes really important to our story.
- [20:49]
Tristan Hughes
That's a very nice kind of teaser as to what we're going on to next, Alex, which is of course the roles of Caracalla and Geta under Severus when he's Emperor.
- [20:56]
Yes.
- [20:56]
How does this affect seems Caracalla mainly as he's the elder one, but only just as you mentioned, he's only a few months older than Geta. But how does Severus becoming Emperor and consolidating his rule, defeating these challengers, how does this all affect the likes of Caracalla and Geta?
- [21:15]
Dr. Alex Imri
Well, Caracalla first it probably changes his life, I would say more than Geta's in the short term because he is used by his father to consolidate the Severan dynasty as a nascent regime. He's also really put into the final line because it is Severus elevating Caracalla to the rank of Caesar. In 195 that causes the second civil war that Severus has to fight. So at the end of his campaign against Niger, Severus retroactively adopts the entire Severan family into the Antonine household. It's a very bizarre political conceit to kind of retcon the history which bolts his family onto that of Marcus Aelius and Commodus, so that he has lines of legitimacy, it seems, going every direction. His rule is unassailable on terms of legitimacy. Now, the problem for Severus is that in doing that, in putting his son to the fore like this, he has basically broken a treaty with Claudius Albinus, the Governor of Britain. He had made this treaty in 193 with Albinus to name Albinus his heir apparent, his Caesar, as a way of buying off that rival to the west to allow him to wage a war in the East. It's clear that in 195, with Niger defeated, Severus feels no need to hold on to that treaty for any longer. And Caracalla is the vehicle. He is the weapon that is used to signal to Albinus that Albinus is getting no bite of the cake anymore. And it's war.
- [22:43]
Tristan Hughes
And he's only. He's less than 10 years old at this time. Caracalla. So he is just being used by his dad.
- [22:48]
Dr. Alex Imri
Yep. He's not even 10. He's just before his 10th birthday, probably is, when he is named the Caesar and the heir apparent. Now, again, that's quite a bold statement to have a child as your heir apparent. And it's exactly that he's used as a tool to signify that the Severan regime is ready to stand on its own feet and will brook no alliances with other factions anymore. And it triggers a bloody Civil War. 196 through 197, we have a fairly intense campaign where it seems that Claudius Albinus brings most of the military power from the British Isles over into Gaul and ironically meets Severus in battle at Lugdunum at Leon, where Caracalla's born, the year 197. And Cassius Dio tells us that this has about 150,000 men on either side duking it out on the fields outside Leon. And this is the largest single Roman land battle in history, if we believe Dio's number.
- [23:43]
Tristan Hughes
And to think that Caracalla has a role in that, although it's not of his choice, is what's quite interesting at this time, Alex. I mean, geta is he just very much in the background because he is the younger of the two sons. And I know generally the sources don't really focus on the time when they're children. So at this time do we not really hear of Geta at all. And it is only just Caracalla because how he's basically used as a pawn in Severus's games to consolidate his new control over the empire and establishing a dynasty.
- [24:10]
Dr. Alex Imri
That's right. I mean, partly we just don't hear about Ghetto tremendously much. And that, it seems, is a literary choice on the part of the authors, I think, in order to accentuate or emphasize maybe the role of Caracalla within the imperial succession, et cetera, at least initially. Now the literary portrait's one thing, but the reality is that Severus doesn't actually give Goethe any role or any constitutional importance at that point. When he elevates Caracal to Caesar, Geta gets nothing really at all. And when eventually, after the civil war against Cletus Albinus is concluded, Severus goes and wages another war against Parthia, basically, I think to recoup some booty and some material gain and to focus all his legions on an external enemy, at the end of that campaign, he elevates Caracalla again to become Augustus. So a co emperor with him that probably the early days of the year 198 and that's timed, it seems, to coincide with the anniversary of Trajan's day of accession, his dies imperii. So Severus again is trying to play all the propagandistic games and using his children to attach his regime to all of the best and all of the best liked facets of Roman imperial history over the preceding century. So Caracalla is made Augustus at that point and it's only then that Geta's brought in and given anything and he's made Caesar at that point. So although there's only 11 months separating the brothers, Caracalla is far more senior in the line of succession than Geta is at this point.
- [25:42]
Tristan Hughes
It's interesting what you highlighted there. So I mean Parthius, that's kind of Mesopotamia, so that's the Iraq area today.
- [25:59]
Susannah Lipscomb
I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb and on not just the Tudors from history hit. We do admittedly cover quite a lot of Tudors, from the rise of Henry VII to the death of Henry viii, from Anne Boleyn to her daughter Elizabeth I, but we also do lots that's not Tudors, murderers, mistresses, pirates and witches clues in the title really. So follow not just the Tudors from history Hit wherever you get your podcasts.
- [26:29]
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- [28:08]
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Dr. Alex Imri
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- [28:48]
Tristan Hughes
You'Ve also mentioned so Caesar is heir apparent. The title Caesar. Caesar's not a name. It's kind of the title is it? At that time. And Augustus is that basically the position of Emperor? But Severus is also emperor. So are they going back to kind of co emperor, ruling father and son.
- [29:03]
Dr. Alex Imri
So, yeah, so on the point of terminology, yes, the Caesar and Augustus begin as names from within that Julian family line. So Julius Caesar and Octavian Augustus, they take on relatively rapidly official titles, or they become rather relatively rapidly official titles. Augustus just refers to the emperor and Caesar refers to the heir. And you're right, when Caracalla is made an Augustus in 198, that is a shared position now with his father. And this evokes, it seems, the shared empire of Marcus Aurelius and Lucius Verus. This is something that I think, again, Severus is well aware of the visual language of this kind of move and is exploiting that to elevate this idea of an Antonine link between his family and that of Marcus Aurelius.
- [29:53]
Tristan Hughes
It's so interesting how you see time and time again with Roman emperors or Hellenistic generals. For me, the great interest is after Alexander the Great's death is how they time those big announcements, those propaganda announcements with either a big military victory or an anniversary or something like that. And Severus, he is the master of that. It's sounding Alex, and I'm guessing that will continue.
- [30:13]
Dr. Alex Imri
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I've seen Severus called the master of the arts of revolution. He is just somebody who, if he's not incredibly skilled personally with pr, he certainly has somebody within his court that knows what they're doing because he is really terribly good at it. And this whole Antonine association isn't just a kind of passing reference. It becomes a core pillar of the visual language of this regime as a whole. And that's something that really comes to characterize Caracalla and Geta. In the late 190s into the early 200s, we have Caracalla and Geta appear on coins, appear on statuary, and they are presented as young Antonine children. They have this kind of cherubic kind of facial feature going on. They have this lovely soft, fluffy hair style kind of thing happening. And importantly, on coins, if it weren't for the titles, I think many people would struggle to distinguish between the two. So, I mean, that's another interesting facet of this inasmuch as well. Caracalla is definitely given more constitutional authority nominally. I mean, he's a child. How much is he actually doing in terms of the propaganda that the regime is pushing out and the mass media that they're pushing out? The Severan children are almost indistinguishable. And I think that's by design. I think Severus is saying with this that he has two children, that the future of the dynasty is assured and that these two brothers are, while they may have different stations, they are indivisible and almost indistinguishable from one another. That's how close they are. That's how wonderfully loved up Severan family is.
- [31:42]
Tristan Hughes
And I guess this idea of peace isn't it after this rough time of a decade of turmoil and hostility and civil war, which once again you see again and again in the Roman Empire and the late Roman Republic. I mean, let's go on then, alex, to the 2002 and Severus reign as it goes on. I mean, what do we know about Caracalla and Geta as Severus's reign goes on over those next 10 years or so?
- [32:05]
Dr. Alex Imri
Now it's interesting in that we have further evidence that Severus wants to use them in this idea of a vast program of family unity being promoted. The two boys feature very prominently, for example, in the secular games of AD 204 where we have. I mean, this is a large cultural set of games that has gone on from really the earliest phase of the imperial era. And it has huge religious overtones. And the imperial family usually plays a significant part. Severus has every single one of his family members play a significant role. They each lead different sections and delegations of this set of games. Beyond the family propaganda though, we have a sense that not all is well in the house of Caesar. We have a sense that the two boys, while being very close in age and while being presented as indivisible princes, just don't get along. I mean, the pair of them just don't seem to enjoy each other's company. And we have early signs that they're intensely competitive with one another. Although much of this will only come out in our sources when the sources get onto the mid first, the middle point of that first decade in the 200s. Because what happens before is that attention is focused on the problematic Praetorian prefect Plotianus. Because it seems, at least in Dio's telling, that Plotianus, a prefect who is alleged to have staged or attempted to stage a coup in the year 205 to overthrow the Severan household. Dio claims that he's almost like a pressure valve that holds the boys competition in check. And it's only when this troubling Praetorian is eliminated and executed that the boy's rivalry really starts to accelerate and explode. Because there's nothing to hold it in check. There Is no external force that the boys are both focused on rather than on each other.
- [33:56]
Tristan Hughes
It's like the dam is breached, isn't it? And then they kind of. That really goes to the fore. I mean, is that rivalry? Is that hostility? Is it emphasized through different factions? Are they at the top of different factions in the court? I mean, what do we know about how this rivalry starts getting out of hand as we get towards the 2 tens?
- [34:11]
Dr. Alex Imri
So in the early phase, it seems that both boys, just as you might expect young princes to have sizable entourages who seem to just encourage their worst impulses, they are a bunch of yes.
- [34:23]
Tristan Hughes
Men, spoil teenagers as well, I guess, as well, aren't they?
- [34:25]
Dr. Alex Imri
Yeah, absolutely. Well, this is it. They are teens. And I think that's something that even scholars sometimes overlook. The fact that they are probably just quite natural teenagers, moody and hormonal and not very predictable. And yet they are facilitated by huge entourages who encourage them to compete with one another. This is seen in Dial, for example, where we have them at the chariot races. If one boy, one teen, one prince chooses one faction, Dalar will be sure to pick an opposing faction because God forbid they pick the same faction. And it's. It seems to intensify. And the public rivalry that grows between the two boys gets even more visible. Dayo tells us, for example, of one occasion where the two boys themselves were engaged in chariot racing. One presumes, just through the middle of the capital and there's a chariot crash. And Caracalla breaks his leg in that competition. And Severus is lauded at that point for kind of just ignoring the two of them and getting on with his work. But it's an indicator that this is a public problem now for Severus. And it gets increasingly embarrassing as the first decade of the 200s draws to a close.
- [35:36]
Tristan Hughes
So it's not confined to the palace. There will be, you know, everyday Romans in the streets. There'll be rumors galore. They'll be talking about the teenage boy emperors and I guess, well, the teenage boys enrolled for that rule in future. But, you know, they'll be talking to each other. There'll be big rumors, there'll be slander thinking, can you believe it that we've got these annoying teenagers who hate each other, potentially going to be the one who succeeds the emperor in time.
- [36:02]
Dr. Alex Imri
I'm a bit of a film buff and this image of Caracall and ghetto chasing through the streets after another in their chariots actually put me in mind of the animated Prince of Egypt cartoon. I don't Know if any of your listeners will remember that when the Ramesses and the Moses characters basically destroy an ornamental city in their chariots, that's very much the image I got from this. These two tearaways, not really caring whose way they get in or what they damage or destroy, as long as they get to have their little competition with one another. So this is becoming a much more public embarrassment for Severus that he has to do something about. And at least partially, it's this animosity between his two sons that seems to prompt his decision to take the entire Imperial court, along with a huge army, over to Northern Britain. When the governor writes to Severus and claims that there's some trouble on the frontier, he takes an expeditionary force of about 50,000 men. I mean, this is a ridiculously large force for what is ultimately, sorry, Britain, a relatively insignificant frontier at this point. And it seems to be partly to remove his sons from the corrupting influence of Rome and to expose them to austerity and military life so that they might start to behave like emperors.
- [37:10]
Tristan Hughes
That is so interesting, because normally with that big campaign of Severus to Britain, they say, with more than 50,000 troops, you think of it always wanting to show that he can. He's done Parthia in the east and now he wants to show that he can conquer the whole of Britain. But as with all of these things, it's normally so much more complicated than just one reason as to why an emperor or this big figure is doing this massive action. And I never realized that another reason for it could have been that he's just fed up with his two young teenage sons, you know, being decadent, being spoiled brats, and he wants to teach them in, maybe in his eyes, as a military man, discipline on the harsh frontier of Britain.
- [37:46]
Dr. Alex Imri
Yeah, I mean, I tend to obviously think that the British campaign has a little bit more complexity to it than the likes of Dyer wants to tell us. But I am tickled by the fact that this old soldier, who has spent a lot of his reign at war in a kind of military context, thinks that that might be the answer to get his boys out of the city, away from the soft life, and make them live in a tent for a few years and come to their senses.
- [38:09]
Tristan Hughes
Well, how do they fare? Talk to us about Caracalla and Geta in Britain for those years.
- [38:14]
Dr. Alex Imri
So if Severus intention was to get the boys to see sense and work together, he doesn't seem to go about it in a tremendously effective manner. When they're in Britain from 208 until just after Severus death in 211. The pair of them seem to have completely different remits. So Caracalla, as a co emperor from the outset, is given command at least of part of the military. He seems to go on campaign with his father in the year 208, 209, and in 210, when Severus, it seems, is becoming increasingly ill and physically unable to lead a force himself, Caracalla seems to be handed the mantle of command and takes an expeditionary force into what is now modern day Scotland. So he's very much the military one of the pair. Goethe, by contrast, seems to be getting trained, at least in a much more administrative capacity. From all accounts, we don't get a sense that Goethe ever leaves the imperial headquarters at Ibarakum in modern York. This situation is complicated, of course, though it's never just as simple as that, because Severus does something else when the family's over in Britain. I've said how Goethe basically gets no slice of the cake. He's made Caesar in 198. In that intervening decade, he basically gets nothing more. He's made a pontifex. So he's made a priest. Some people want to mistakenly call that. Oh, well, he's made Pontifex Maximus. He's not. He's not. He's not made the head priest. He has made a priest. In 209, however, Severus makes the decision that the time has come and that Geta will also be elevated to the rank of Augustus.
- [39:42]
Tristan Hughes
You've got three now.
- [39:43]
Dr. Alex Imri
Wow. So in 209 we have a tripartite principle, and for me, that is one of the core moments for understanding this pair of brothers, not just how Geta might feel finally being given a bit of a share in the imperial power alongside his brother, who he's had to sort of be in the shadow of for the best part of a decade. I also try to think about it from the perspective of Caracalla. I can only imagine that being really a jarring moment. He has assumed perhaps, that he is going to share imperial power with his father for all of his father's life. He will succeed his father and then he'll decide what happens. Whereas, no, in 209 he is forced to share the imperial mantle with his brother, who we've just said he's fought hammer and tongs with for the best part of a decade. This is a very interesting constitutional move. I'm still not sure I understand Severus's Logic, to be honest. But it does change the dynamic within the Severn Imperial household.
- [40:42]
Tristan Hughes
Shall we also quickly mention the role of their mother, Julia Domna? Does she have quite an overarching presence on the two, even when they're in Britain, even at this stage? Because we talked about Severus influence, which is, you know, always there in the sources, as the emperor. But obviously, I'm presuming their mother also has a big influence too.
- [40:59]
Dr. Alex Imri
She absolutely does. There's no doubt about the fact that she is a pivotal figure in both young men's lives at that point in Britain. Given that she's a member of the Imperial Court, but obviously would be in no way attached to the military, it's more likely that she spent more time with Geta Due during that campaign. Now, that said, Julia's role in our literary reconstructions of the period is fascinating because it shifts depending on the source. Dayo very much has Julia as an ambitious political operative in her own right. We get the sense that she is hungry for power behind the scenes and that this kind of characterizes all of her decisions in Herodian. We get what I tend to think is probably the most likely relationship between Caracalla and Geta and their mother, that Julia Domna is the voice of reason. She's the rational one within the household and is always trying to bring her wayward sons together after Severus dies. We have this allegation in Herodion that Caracall and Geta loathe each other so much that they just decide they want to split the empire in two and that Caracalla will rule from the west and Geta will rule from the east. Caracalla in Rome, Geta probably in Alexandria, and that the two armies will almost face off against each other at the Hellespont so that they can monitor each other's movements. It's a kind of wacky situation if you sit down and analyze it. Yeah.
- [42:18]
Tristan Hughes
It's almost like north and South Korea in a weird kind of way, with that demilitarized zone being.
- [42:22]
Dr. Alex Imri
Yeah, A channel. Yeah, Channel is a dmz. It's an extraordinary proposition. Probably isn't historically. There's no real reality to it, probably. But it's a very good vehicle for Herodian to show what kind of character Julia is, because Julia is the voice of reason who stops her sons from this course of action. Emotionally appealing to them that they can't divide their mother in two. So that's the kind thing that they would be doing by carving up the empire in doing this. So Julia is Very much this voice of reason, it seems, within the Imperial household and the Senate. It's not just the literary. The Senate also seemed to want to believe this as well, because when Severus dies, she is given a couple of really unusual titles by the Senate which reflect this idea of her as the peace bringer. She's given the qualities of Pia Felix, so pious and sort of Felix lucky or happy. And she has made matter senatus. So she's almost made a de facto guardian of the Senate in their interests to stop these two kids from tearing the Empire apart. So we've got the image of Julia as the rational one. That is not really what we get in the Historia Augusta. Of course, the Historia Augusta is not interested in something so mundane as that kind of image. The Historia Augusta tends to use Julia in order to attack Caracalla from whatever angle it chooses at that point. Now, in the Historia Augusta, we get an allegation that Caracalla and Julia are excessively close, and there's an allegation of an incestuous relationship between the pair. That's in the life of Caracalla. Now, in the life of Geta, we get the sense that Julia is not in fact Caracalla's biological mother and that Julia therefore is always championing Goethe's cause. And the reason for Goethe's elevation is owing to Julia's intervention behind the scenes with Severus. Now, that ties into the kind of wicked stepmother trope that Caracallo faces as well. So there's a lot of literary backage around here, but my advice to you and your listeners is basically, if you want to establish anything about Julia and the suns, avoid the Historia Augusta. Stick with Herodian, because you're getting nothing of real value out of the he at this point.
- [44:43]
Tristan Hughes
Thanks for listening to the Ancients. You can get all history hit podcasts, ad free early access and bonus episodes, along with hundreds of original history documentaries by subscribing. Head over to historyhit.com subscribe.
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- [45:37]
Tristan Hughes
Well, now let's move on to the climax of the story of Caracalla and Geta. So let's go from the death of Severus. So 211 York. Alex, talk us through the death and what then happens with Caracalla and Geta?
- [45:53]
Dr. Alex Imri
Okay, so the British campaign was in its third year by this point and had not produced really any decisive outcome. Severus had claimed a quick victory and had given himself and his two sons the imperatorial title of Britannicus. This may well be another reason for the campaign as a whole, just to get tea and medals for, for Caracall and Geta. But they're still stuck there and it looks like they're going to be stuck there for a while. And in February 2011, the situation changes only with the death of Severus on the frontier. In that moment we see almost like a light switch. The two boys, now forced to share power together, but alone without the influence of their father, seem to make every effort to conclude the British campaign within a matter of days, if weeks, if not days. They immediately call a treaty with the northern tribes. Insofar as they're able. They maybe leave a small military force in northern Britain, but the pair of them then race back to the capital. They're in one big train, though. And this is kind of an interesting point about this. It seems that they start to just completely separate from one another. They barely have any contact at all. They're also already on the way back to Rome. They've not even left Britain. And they're trying to angle the courtiers towards their factions. They're trying to get their people in the right places within the imperial court to support them over their brother, adversary, rival. I don't even know what we would label it at this point. And this continues when the boys get back to Rome. I mean, the funeral stuff for Severus, we've got his urn, it's back in Rome, that's all fine. The brothers seem to divide the imperial palace into two. And this may be where Herodian gets his idea about wanting to divide the empire into the Imperial palace more or less has a partition wall put up in it and the two boys never meet one another. They are intensely worried about each other, poisoning them. So they have huge bodyguards, start to grow up around them now, indeed, they continue to promote this idea of family harmony that Severus has tried to do for the last decade. One of the big themes in the imperial coinage and inscription of this period is Concordia augustorum. So the harmony of the emperors, which, I mean, anybody who knew these two surely must have seen this as an Utter fallacy. Now, Dio, who loves a good old man or portent, gives us a sign that this situation, this rivalry that. But this kind of cold war will only last for so long. He says that anybody who could see this knew that something terrible was bound to happen. And he offers us this sort of beautiful set piece of the Senate meet or trying to meet with the priests of Concord to sacrifice in the Emperor's honor. But the people who want to make the sacrifice get lost and can't meet each other. And they're wandering around Rome and the palace trying to find one. And they can't do it. They can't make this harmony sacrifice work. So something bad is going to happen. And this is where it comes to head.
- [48:46]
Tristan Hughes
Well, I mean, just before that, Alex. I mean, because with Gladiator 2, there is that image, isn't there? They're in the Colosseum and they're sitting together. They're laughing like maniacally. They're being portrayed like megalomaniac mania is the way to portray it. We don't know of anything like that in that year of them participating together, sitting in the royal box together overlooking gladiatorial games or anything like that. We don't see them together for those kind of things.
- [49:08]
Dr. Alex Imri
We're not told about any sort of big events or things where they try and appear together. But Dio tells us that in public appearances they do try and maintain the conceit that is familial unity. So I would say in scenes like that in The Colosseum, Gladiator 2. Yes. It wouldn't be uncommon, I would think, in this period for the two boys to be sat together as co emperors. Whether they are maniacally laughing genuinely with one another, as Gladiator 2 has it is another question. I think that ultimately the atmosphere within that royal box might be a little bit more icy cold than Ridley Scott would have us believe.
- [49:45]
Tristan Hughes
All right, then, come on, then. You said that it gets to a head. So what is this? It goes cold war turns hot?
- [49:51]
Dr. Alex Imri
It does and then some. I mean, if Severus is dead in February 211, the whole situation comes to its violent conclusion before the end of December 211. So the boys have been living in Rome in this kind of partitioned life for a while. Growing bodyguards, much suspicion, only barely holding on to the imperial conceit that they're together now. It seems that they're both trying to outmaneuver one another and to assassinate the other one, basically. I mean, Dio tells us that Caracalla wants to do it from the moment Severus dies, but is held back or can't make it work. Herodian tells us that the pair of them are equally as bad as each other and are just continually plotting in an escalating fashion. Now matters come to a head when they realize, I think, that they're not going to be able to get round each other's huge bodyguards at this point. So Dio at least tells us that Caracalla petitions his mother, Julia Domna, to call a meeting between the two boys, at which the pair will arrive unarmed, without all their bodyguards. And that seems to make sense. That is something that the Empress could and would have done. And it seems that the meeting is to arrange a reconciliation. So Caracall and Geta both attend this meeting in Julia Domna's chambers and we have different tellings of what happens next. In Herodian's telling, we have Caracalla simply losing the plot, going feral. The actual act of the murder is lost. But using interpolations from other sources, we get the sense that Caracalla just launches himself at Goethe in a frenzy and stabs him dozens of times in the chamber there, right in front of Julia Domina.
- [51:24]
Tristan Hughes
So he does it personally. He doesn't get his bodyguard to do it, he does it personally. He kills his brother right there.
- [51:29]
Dr. Alex Imri
So says Herodian.
- [51:30]
Tristan Hughes
Oh, wow.
- [51:31]
Dr. Alex Imri
Now, Cassius Dio gives us a slightly different telling. Cassius Dio does tell us that he basically delegates the task. Cassius Dio tells us that when the meeting is underway, Caracalla gives a signal, and at that point 10 centurions, presumably picked from within the Praetorian Guard, burst into the room. And this is an even more harrowing scene, I think, if it can be, than Caracalla murdering Geta by hand, because in Dio's telling, at the sight of the centurions bursting in, armed and dangerous, obviously, Geta runs to Julia Domina clings to her and pleas for his life, and nobody pays attention. The centurions launch themselves at Geta whilst he is in his mother's arms and assassinate him right there. And Dio tells us that Julia, in trying to shield Geta, also receives a wound to her arm in the midst of this. So taking pause for a minute because, I mean, it's always entertaining to talk about these wild emperors and their murderous tendencies, but I try and get my students to think about this moment in time just for a second. If there's any historical reality to it, it is absolutely heinous and it is Highly traumatic. We have Caracalla either murdering or ordering the murder of his brother and co emperor in their mother's arms in the Imperial Palace. This is an unprecedented act of political murder. And in the aftermath, Caracalla immediately runs from the chamber and petitions the Praetorian Guard for support. He claims that he was the target of a plot which, you know, looking at aside from the literary agendas of the sources, may well be true, but the act of murder itself is pinned wholly on Caracalla at this point. Wow.
- [53:05]
Tristan Hughes
And that is another case of ancient fratricide, which makes it even more horrible. But as you've already highlighted, Alex, they didn't seem the most amiable of characters to start with. But at the same time it still comes to horrific conclusions. We will continue the story of Caracalla and his soul reign in the next episode. And then the figure who comes after Caracalla, who's Also in Gladiator 2, the figure of Macrinus. But last thing to kind of wrap up the story of Geta, Alex, what does Caracalla do in the aftermath of murdering Geta? Because naturally at this time there are lots of statues, as you've mentioned earlier, that Severus has ordered, which shows that Concordia, Caracalla with Geta, all this beautiful artwork depicting the two in harmony. What does he do with all that now that he has brutally killed Geta and Geta's out of the picture?
- [53:54]
Dr. Alex Imri
Well, you're right. I mean, after murdering Geta, this whole family line about the family being lovey dovey and unified can no longer hold water. Caracalla engages in the practice that we give the modern label damnatio memoriae. And this is a. And it's not just a condemnation of the memory, it is an abolition or a destruction of the memory. Now this is well seen in modern times. For example, in Stalinist Russia you have the idea of the vanishing commissars, people just disappearing out photographs. In antiquity it usually involved defacement, destruction of statuary, inscription which recorded their names. Any kind of public presentation of that condemned figure was eligible for destruction or vandalism. And Caracalla is renowned to have engaged in the most violent, the most extensive, the most virulent example of damnatio memoriae during the Roman imperial period. Our literary sources tell us that not even the coinage which bears Goethe's devices was spared from Caracalla's wrath. HE ATTACKS STATUES There's a scene where I think it's Dayo tells us Caracalla literally with a sword himself Hacks at statues bearing Geta's likeness and image. We have evidence from our coinage that survives that it has been brought back in counter stamped. Bits of Geta's face have been chiseled off the coins. His inscription around Rome is completely wiped out. There's a really good example of this on the arch of the silversmiths in modern central Rome where you can see on the actual arch the inscription has been chiseled out and there's a very, very conspicuous gap on the family portraits where Goethe would have been. And that's kind of the point. It's not an erasure to make everybody forget, so to speak. It's a deliberate act designed to make people remember that this person is condemned and is damned for eternity. So yeah, it's a very, very extreme reaction, but it's also component in Caracalla's new rationale for his regime. He can't claim to be one of the family indivisible anymore. He has to change the narrative. And as part of that Geta is condemned as somebody who plotted against him, somebody who looked to overthrow him. And so the act of damnatio memoriae, extreme as it is, is politically consistent.
- [56:14]
Tristan Hughes
It really isn't it. It's such an extraordinary end to get a story, as you say. And my mind also goes, I've got a picture note on my other screen as I finish that, that panel showing Severus, Julia, Domna, Caracalla and Geta. And you just see where Geta's face is. It's just, it's just brown, it's just been covered over completely. And that was one of many.
- [56:33]
Dr. Alex Imri
That is probably one of my favorite images from the Severan era as well. It's actually my laptop's desktop background. This is the so called Berlin Tondo. And it was, it's a relatively small artifact, it was made in Egypt. But you're right, it has a beautiful family group or what would have been a beautiful family grouping except for the smudged out face, conspicuously smudged out face of Geta in the bottom left field. But we still have the neck and shoulders. It's just, it's a conspicuous rubbing out of the face. And I think I'm right. I've said this before, I think in other places I think I'm right. That chemical analysis has showed that dungar feces might even have been used to erase the face of Geta on that image. So it's a double insult, it's a double condemnation. If they can denigrate as well as erase they choose to do so, and as a final marker of Caracalla's wrath, he doesn't deify Geta. Geta doesn't initially get made God in the way that some previous Roman emperors have been made. Instead, Caracalla seems to keep offering sacrifices to the Manes or to the departed spirits of Geta. Now you might think that sounds like a relatively nice move, but what it does is it basically locks Geta's soul in the underworld and stops him from becoming a God in his own right. So even then, it's petty and it's cruel.
- [57:44]
Tristan Hughes
What a story. Alex, this has been absolutely fantastic. You'll be back very soon to continue the story and then to get to the figure of McCrinus with our good friend and your colleague Matilda MacDonald Brown. But until then, Alex, it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast.
- [58:00]
Dr. Alex Imri
Thank you for having me. It's been great.
- [58:05]
Tristan Hughes
Well, there you go. There was Dr. Alex Imry talking you through the horrific story of Caracalla and Geta, climaxing in Caracalla's murder of his younger brother brother in his mother's arms. It is a gruesome story, but the story is not over yet because Alex will be back in a few days time to continue the story of Caracalla ruling alone, but then focusing in with another special guest on what happened afterwards after the downfall of Caracalla when he too was murdered and his throne was taken by another, a figure who also features in the new Gladiator 2 movie Macrinus, played by Denzil Washington. That is coming in a few days time. In the meantime, thank you for listening to this episode of the Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also follow me. I am on Instagram and TikTok.
- [58:59]
Simply search Ancients Tristan.
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