Loading summary
Transcript148 lines
- [00:00]
Tristan
Ever wondered why the Romans were defeated in the Teutoburg Forest? What secrets lie buried in prehistoric Ireland? Or what made Alexander truly great? With a subscription to History Hit, you can explore our ancient past alongside the world's leading historians and archaeologists. You'll also unlock hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a brand new release every single week covering everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com subscribe.
- [00:33]
Commercial Narrator
Ready to change your life for just $2 a day, OrangeTheory Fitness delivers one hour workouts that combine strength and cardio to help you burn fat, build muscle and feel unstoppable. Right now, get a full month of unlimited classes for just $62. Don't wait. This offer ends soon. Visit orangetheory.com or your local studio and start your transformation today. Offer ends January 31, 2026. New members only Premier membership, performance monitor and monthly billing required. Discount applies to first month only. Other terms apply. See Studio for details.
- [01:05]
Tristan
Hello. I hope you're doing well. I'm all good here. I'm currently in my kitchen brewing a cup of tea, English breakfast tea, just before I'm about to go off and record another Ancients interview which is all about Mesoamerica. And that's going to be coming out in a few weeks time, so stay tuned for that one. Today we are in the ancient Mediterranean world. We're going to imperial Rome and the story of Rome's second emperor, the Emperor Tiberius, who's quite an infamous figure today, as you're going to hear, quite a complex character. Our guest is a good friend of mine and a fantastic classicist and author who was also recently on the podcast to talk through the story of Antony and Cleopatra. She is of course Dr. Daisy Dunne, the beloved Daisy who I know so many of you wanted more episodes with and we are delivering. I really do hope you enjoy. Let's go. The year is 14 AD and the much loved Emperor Augustus, the man who established the Roman Empire the is dead. At the ripe old age of 75, a new figure steps into the power vacuum. His grim and taciturn stepson, Tiberius Julius Caesar Augustus. Now, ancient historians paint a portrait of Tiberius as a man in slow agonizing decline. We're going to trace his path from a brilliant general and statesman to a paranoid tyrant, retreating to his palatial fortress on the island of Capri, the place that gave birth to horrific legends of perversions, cold blooded executions, torture, and of a man who ruled from his very own ancient Epstein Island. But how much of his legacy is the Truth. Well, joining me today is the author, classicist and friend of the podcast, Dr. Daisy Dunn, to explore the reign and retreat of Rome's second and perhaps most truly tragic emperor. Daisy, hello. Great to have you back on the show.
- [03:13]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Thanks for having me.
- [03:14]
Tristan
We were last talking about Antony and Cleopatra. This time Tiberius always feels a bit of a weird one, Tiberius, because you know, he's following in the footsteps of the first emperor, which always feels, you know, big footsteps to fill. But at the same time I don't want that to cover up the bad stuff in his story because it is one just with all of these rumors surrounding it.
- [03:36]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
It's a really interesting rule, I'll say that because Augustus, in some way a lot of people have idealized his rule to a degree and Tiberius, they're quite keen to portray him as the opposite. He's almost the villain in the piece and that's not quite what happens.
- [03:51]
Tristan
And also the fact that there is so much more to his story than just when he was emperor.
- [03:55]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Exactly, exactly. And I think a lot of people focus on the end of his rule, which isn't so good and, and they kind of don't look at the man that he actually was. But I think the man behind the throne, the man behind the power, there was a lot kind of going on. He's actually sort of a lot more cultured, I think, than people give him credit for.
- [04:13]
Tristan
Set the scene for us when abouts in Roman history. Are we talking with the story of good old Tiberius?
- [04:19]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
So we're looking, as you said, after Augustus. Augustus dies in AD 14 and that's when Tiberius becomes emperor and he rules until AD 37. But obviously his life, he's quite, he's 55 when he comes to power, so he's had a long life before then. So we're looking, you know, right the way back into the end of the first century bc.
- [04:39]
Tristan
Do we have a rich amount of sources surviving for his life?
- [04:43]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
We do actually. I mean they're fairly good for Tiberius. I mean, my favourite, you've got Suetonius Lives of the Caesars biographical source. Suetonius's writings of early 2nd century. So not a million miles away from Tiberius in time. And he was head of Rome's library, so he had access to the imperial archives. So you know, he has some material to work with. Tacitus, other big kind of king of the historians at this time, working a similar time in his annals. He dedicates a lot of time to Tiberius Cassius Dio, another of the historians later sort of second to third century, we have bits of the Roman poets, which is quite useful of Ovid, of all kinds of people, actually. I mean, they're quite good. Plenty again.
- [05:28]
Tristan
And the infamous episodes in Tarberis life, which I'm sure we'll explore a few of them in our chat today, do you find those stories in all of those different sources or are they more prevalent in one than the other?
- [05:40]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
There are bad stories in the sources in most of those sources, I would say. I mean, Suetonius goes to town on him, Tacitus does to an extent as well. So, I mean, I think there's a fair sort of idea of negativity associated.
- [05:53]
Tristan
With him and I guess so. Also, the job of the historian today is sorting fact from fiction, trying to figure out what is just scandalous rumour, but what might have some basis of truth in it as well.
- [06:03]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Exactly. And I think with Tiberius that becomes quite difficult because you find actually with a lot of these emperors, and particularly with Suetonius, they like this idea of a narrative arc, the idea that people begin well and then they're, you know, corrupted by power and things turn sour and they want to show this kind of arc of corruption and. And this seems to be, you know, like a narrative device a lot of the time. So it's quite difficult as a historian today to look past that sometimes to try and work out what's actually going on.
- [06:31]
Tristan
Well, let's go back to the beginning. So can you explain to us Tiberius's background, his family? What do we know?
- [06:38]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
So Tiberius was a Claudian on both sides of the family. So Claudian family, great elite, prestigious old family in ancient Rome. But the beginning of his life, in spite of that, is quite difficult because he is born to a man called Tiberius Claudius Nero. They like to pile the names up.
- [06:57]
Tristan
Big names as well. Tiberius Claudius Nero, he's got all of them.
- [07:00]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
And he was like a moderately successful politician, but he happened to fight on the opposite side to Octavian in the civil wars of the late Roman Republic. And this results to him going on the run essentially with his young family. And that was his wife, who was Livia Drusilla, their toddling son, Tiberius. And Livia was actually pregnant with her next child, who was Drusus at that time. So they have to actually escape from Rome, they go to Sicily, they take refuge there, they even seek out Mark Antony in the East. You know, they are really in trouble. So this is incredibly difficult. I mean, Tiberius is there at one point, he apparently tries. He almost gives away their sort of hiding space by Crying. You know, it's a difficult beginning. And then it becomes even harder because he moves back to Rome when it's safe enough to do so. And Octavian, incredibly makes a play for Livia and Olivia has to marry him. And Livia's already married. Octavian himself is also married to Scribonia. She's just giving birth to their daughter Julia. And it's just such a scandal in Rome as a result of this, so the couple break up. So Livia has to marry Octavian instead. She then gives birth to Jesus afterwards. And because in Roman law, it's really the fathers who get custody of the children, Tiberius and his brother went to live with their father rather than be raised by the stepfather, Octavian. And the father dies when Tiberius is nine. He actually delivers this sort of funeral eulogy for him. And at that point they'd have gone into the imperial palace and be raised by Octavian the stepfather and back with his mother.
- [08:42]
Tristan
That young kid. Tiberius could never have imagined that that would have been his future when he was, you know, very, very young, fleeing Rome, you know, believing that his family were on the opposite side to the figure who had ultimately become his stepfather, Octavian, who would ultimately become Augustus.
- [08:59]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
It's such an astonishing story and I think, you know, Livia and Octavian getting together, full stop, is such a shocker.
- [09:06]
Tristan
Yeah, it's interesting you're saying there that Livia had to marry Octavian, because sometimes people say that Livia orchestrated the marriage with Octavian, but it seems like you think the other way.
- [09:15]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
I think the other way around. I mean, I'm making it sound probably like a lot more pressure than it was, but I think it was high pressure. I mean, Tasta says that he was completely overcome by lust for her body, which I think we kind of push aside slightly. I mean, she has something to gain from this relationship. She has lost a lot of her property because of having to go on the run, so she can potentially recover some of her losses. And I mean, the funny thing is that her first husband, so Tiberius Claudius Nereus, seems to be, like, surprisingly okay with this. Like, he actually, like, presides over the wedding feast, so he's there. So it's an arrangement. It's not like a kind of absolutely forced marriage, but it's something that takes place and it just changes the course of history, really, for the whole family.
- [09:53]
Tristan
I mean, absolutely. And we could do a whole episode exploring the whole life of Tiberius growing up before he becomes emperor. I'm going to try and narrow that down into only A few questions before we get to the Imperial Tiberius story, but can you talk us through then? Let's fast forward past the battle of Actium. Octavian defeats Mark Antony and Cleopatra, who we've already talked about, and becomes the last man standing and then becomes Augustus Tiberius. At this time, he's now in the imperial family with Augustus, Olivia and so on. Do we know much about his life at this time, when he's growing up and now finds himself at the centre of this new, still quite fragile, Roman order?
- [10:38]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Well, he gets advantages from the fact that he's actually entered this family, with Octavian being the victor, as you say. So he is sort of pushed into a sort of public career, probably earlier than most people. So he gets a good education. He learns Greek really, really well. He's said to be quite good at sort of learning oratory. And he sort of features in some of the kind of military parades that Octavian puts on. So the Actium celebrations he features, he's then sort of sent off. He gets sort of early career advantages. He goes off and fights in Germany, he goes to Armenia, he installs a new king in Armenia. So he has sort of early, early, like, successes. Exactly. And this he probably wouldn't have had. I mean, for a start, I think he's only 28 when he becomes consul. Consul is a chief magistrate of Rome, usually also 40, 42. So he's had an elevated career as a result of his connections with Octavian.
- [11:32]
Tristan
And does he also have an interest, like so many other elite Romans at the time, in philosophy and the like, and being a very much a man of the arts at the same time?
- [11:41]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Well, I've got to confess, I've got a huge confession, Tristan. I've been really, really harsh on Tiberius in the past. I've kind of presented him slightly as being a bit like sort of sciency and not really very cultured, sort of like not very civilized. And I kind of stand by anyone.
- [12:00]
Tristan
Who does sciences nowadays and not very civilised. Is that also what you're saying?
- [12:02]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Well, I don't mean sciences in a literal sense. I mean that he is pedantic.
- [12:06]
Tristan
Okay, great.
- [12:07]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Yeah, pedantic. Rather than kind of like very, very cultured and really appreciating literature on its own merit. That's what I. And I kind of stand by this because what we're told in the sources is that he likes Greek, he likes philosophy in particular. But when he delivers his speeches, they're not particularly creative, they're not kind of inspiring. And Suetonius says that he Loves Greek myth. So you think, okay, fine. But the detail in this is that he likes to apparently pick out sort of obscure bits of Greek myth and then test people on it. So he'd go around, like, asking scholars, for example, what was the name of Hecuba's mother. And to me, this sounds like someone who kind of like, is one of these people who collects knowledge for its sake, for trivia, so they can show off how much they know. Pub quiz type of knowledge rather than like deep appreciation. That's my impression. But like, it is based on the sources, but that's how I feel about him.
- [12:59]
Tristan
Sounds like being an ancient history podcast host today, to be fair. But wow. So that's very interesting because doesn't he go to Rhodes at one point as well later on? Or. He actually gets more interested in that as time goes on.
- [13:11]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Yeah. So, I mean, Rhodes, this is 6 BC, so we're going forward in time.
- [13:16]
Tristan
Sorry, I know we're going a bit forward.
- [13:17]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
No, no, no. So this is interesting because he goes off and it's really unexpected. He's kind of at the height of his powers at that point. He's really been doing well in Germany. He's been having various sort of powers given to him and he disappears and he is exhausted at that point. And when he's in Rhodes, he seems to be going to lots of lectures, he goes to philosophy lectures. He seems to kind of take it a little bit easy and become maybe a little bit more cultured. But it's a kind of baffling thing because he's been doing so well. And Augustus, as he's then become Octavian's turn into Augustus, he is really trying to keep him in Rome and Tiberius is like, no, no, I'm going to go. And he actually starves himself so that he can go. So he gets his way. He gets. And the really interesting thing is, is he wrote some memoirs which we don't have now. They were kind of brief memoirs, but we know from a quotation from those memoirs that he said that he was going because he didn't want to be compared or to be seen to be competing with his two stepsons, Gaius and Lucius, who were being elevated and were being very sort of. They're very, very popular with the Roman people.
- [14:20]
Tristan
Because at that time, this is important, isn't it? Whilst I kind of get us ready for the next question, Tiberius is not the labelled successor of Augustus. So can you talk us through how it ultimately does come to Tiberius being Augustus's. Well, next in line.
- [14:37]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Yeah. So Tiberius is absolutely not number one choice for Augustus for successor. I mean, he's pretty low down in the pile to be honest. I mean, Augustus really would like to have his own blood. That's what he wants. So first of all, it looks very likely that Marcellus, who is married to his only daughter Julia, might be the favoured candidate for power. He dies very young, so Julia is widowed. She is then married to Marcus Agrippa, who is the right hand man of Augustus.
- [15:10]
Tristan
Top guy.
- [15:11]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Top guy. They have five children and three of them are boys. One of the boys is the third boy is born after Agrippa dies, so he's called Agrippa posthumous hence posthumously.
- [15:22]
Tristan
That's quite a on the nose name right there.
- [15:24]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Yeah, it is, but it's a Roman thing, that's what they did. So the eldest two sons are Gaius and Lucius and they look like very strong candidates. Agrippa himself, he was supposedly the man that Augustus gave his seal ring to when he thought that he was dying of an illness. So he looked like a viable candidate even though he wasn't a relation. So then we've got Gaius and Lucius, but they also die really young, so they die within 18 months of each other at the beginning of the first century adult. So I mean, this is catastrophic really for Augustus. So it's only actually in AD4 that he makes Tiberius his co heir with Agrippa Posthumus, he adopts both of them and instead this is for the sake of the res publica.
- [16:05]
Tristan
Foul play or just unlucky. What do you think?
- [16:08]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
There's a lot of effort in some of the sources to present Livia as having a hand in these, but I don't believe it. I don't believe it. I mean, I think, I mean, Marcellus, there was clearly some kind of plague going around Rome at that time. Augustus recovered, Marcellus didn't. There's no way she had a hand in that. Gaius and Lucius, Gaius succumbs to a wound that he sustains in battle. When he's off in the East, Alucius gets unwell for some illness. We're not quite sure what it is when he's in Marseille on his way to Spain. These look all like natural deaths. I mean, it's kind of part and parcel of being a Roman in this period. You know, the odds against you are, you know, they're stacked against you. It's very difficult.
- [16:45]
Tristan
And Tiberius, younger brother Drusus, he's already died fighting in Germany as well, hasn't he? So that, you know, so by this time There is just Tiberius and Agrippa Posthumus left. And if we mention Agrippa Posthumus briefly, he just looks, from what they say, incompetent or just not. Not up for the job. So he kind of goes out of the picture.
- [17:06]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
He goes out of the picture. I mean, I feel your heart goes out to this boy. I mean, maybe I'm just being soppy, but it's very difficult. I mean, he. His mother, Julia, is Tiberius second wife. She is exiled to an island. His father has died before he's born. He's seen his two elder brothers both die within 18 months of each other. I mean, this is really tough for a group of posthumous. And it's said that his behaviour is absolutely terrible, that he has foul moods, he's violent, he's aggressive, he's particularly hostile towards Livia. And ultimately he's actually exiled to an island in 87 and it's, you know, he's then completely sort of out of the picture and it's just very, very difficult. I mean, Tiberius at that point has been asked to adopt his nephew. He's Drusus son, Germanicus. So there's like another iron in the fire, if you like. But for Agrippa Posthumus, he is out of sight, out of mind and he will be finished off. And this is where possibly Livia does have some involvement in it.
- [18:04]
Tristan
Interesting. Yeah, we'll get to that in a moment. And also interesting for you to introduce another character who will mention Germanicus. So you almost got three generations now, don't you, Augustus? He's now got Tiberius as his heir, but then told Tiberius to adopt Germanicus. So then there's another in line because Tiberius is already getting on by this time.
- [18:21]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
He is. And he has a son of his own as well, called Drusus. There's too many, too many of these names being recycled, but he's another Drusus.
- [18:27]
Tristan
So Drusus and Germanicus would joint rule after. Is that the idea?
- [18:30]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
So there's an idea, there's always an idea of doing things in pairs.
- [18:33]
Tristan
Okay, interesting.
- [18:43]
Commercial Narrator
Ready to change your Life? For just $2 a day, Orangetheory Fitness delivers one hour workouts that combine strength and cardio to help you burn fat, build muscle and feel unstoppable. Right now, get a full month of unlimited classes for just $62. Don't wait. This offer ends soon. Visit orangetheory.com or your local studio and start your transformation today. Offer ends January 31, 2026. New members only. Premier membership, performance monitor and monthly Billing required. Discount applies to first month only. Other terms apply. C Studio for details.
- [19:26]
Tristan
I feel one other thing we should mention, because you also mentioned her name, Augustus daughter Julia. Shall we talk then about Tiberius marriages and also his marriage to Julia? Because this also feels important when exploring Tiberius's character.
- [19:42]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
So Tiberius starts off by having a very promising, happy marriage. And this is to a woman called Vipsania, who is a daughter of Marcus Agrippa and she was just a baby when she was betrothed to Tiberius. They grew up, they got married, they had children, everything seems to be going splendidly for them. And then Julia is widowed by Agrippa and 10 months go past. More than 10 months. 10 months. This is the minimum time you're allowed to be a widow in Rome. Essentially. That's because if you're pregnant, there'd be no chance of the baby there being any doubt over the father. So that time elapses. Augustus is desperate for Julia to remarry and he finally sees, he says, okay, well, let's marry her to Tiberius. Because Augustus and Livia had been unable to have their own child, apparently they had a child who didn't survive. So they haven't been able to unite their two bloodlines. If they can get Tiberius and Julia to have a child, they will have achieved that. So that's the great plan. But Tiberius and Julia are about as different from each other as you can possibly imagine.
- [20:43]
Tristan
They don't get on, do they?
- [20:44]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
They don't get on. I mean, they're stepbrother and stepsister. I mean, they've had to grow up part of their childhood together. They're not going to have like some. I mean, not that a load of Roman marriages have like some great positive romance between them. That's not always the case. So a lot of arranged marriages, but there is absolutely no love between these two. A lot of pressure on their shoulders, nonetheless. And Tiberius is still in love with Vipsania. I mean, he actually sees her in the street at one point and he's completely like dumbstruck by her. And he's in a real state after that. And so then sort of measures are put in place to stop them from ever seeing each other again. So it's horrible. It's horrible. So they're forced together. They do actually conceive a child, but the son actually dies when he's very, very young. And that seems to sort of drive them even further apart. And then what happens is stories start to spread about Julia having affairs. And this is largely when Tiberius is in Rhodes, when He's gone off in 6 B.C. so he's kind of disappeared. So she is in Rome on her own and she is sort of accused of having affairs with five or six or more noblemen. And this is disastrous. And it's really, really embarrassing for Augustus because as part of his legislation, he has made adultery a crime. It's illegal to have affairs. And then his own daughter has supposedly, you know, fallen foul of this law. It's really, really bad politics, isn't it? So he exiles her to an island, to Planasia, which is off the west coast of Italy. It's very, very remote. It's very lonely. She goes off there with her mother. Tiberius is then left, and I mean, in Tiberius favor. Augustus had actually considered killing her, his daughter. Tiberius is the one who actually stayed his hand. He said, you know, we need to show leniency.
- [22:26]
Tristan
Tiberius stays Augustus hand from killing his own daughter.
- [22:31]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Yes.
- [22:31]
Tristan
I mean, that's as terrible as it can get.
- [22:35]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
It is horrific. It is. I mean, Tiberius even says she can keep the presents that he gave her. I mean, this is the good side of Tiberius, right? This is showing him in a much more positive light. Part of it is politic on his side. He knows that if he authorizes the death of Juliet, her sons who are still alive at this point are gonna take it out on him and it could be trouble down the line. So I think he knows politically it's a better idea to show some kind of leniency towards her at this stage.
- [23:02]
Tristan
So that's really nicely set the scene for as we approach the death of Augustus. So what do we know about Tiberius succession to the emperorship?
- [23:12]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Well, this whole idea of succession is clouded in mystery in Rome because you bear in mind, I mean, people, there's no, there's no sort of precedent for passing power down under this new political system. And there's still this kind of mirage, this idea that they might return to the Republic, that there isn't kind of a monarchical system that's set up here. And so Augustus hasn't been speaking kind of audibly to the people about having a successor at all. It's all kind of slightly murky and clouded. His will names Tiberius as co heir with Livia. So he gets 2/3 of his property and it's very obvious from this that he is the heir. But even so, Tiberius isn't certain of this, even himself. So he goes back to Rome after Augustus dies and he is named and he kind of accepts the fact that he is going to be the heir, but he doesn't really know what that means. And he's not quite sure whether it's legitimate or not. And this is partly because there's mutinying along the Rhine, for example. There are people calling for Germanicus to be made the next leader rather than Tiberius. So he's not sure that his position is secure. He immediately goes to the Senate. He wants the Senate to kind of tell him that it's all okay and that he is in charge. But he's also quite reluctant. I mean, we have quotes from him. He apparently says that, and it's before he comes to power, he says that governing the empire is going to be like holding a wolf by the ears. So I think there's a real sense of fear on his part of what he's inheriting. He's not quite sure whether it's legitimate that he is a successor at all. He wants the Senate to tell him. We're told that the senators are looking to him, looking for leadership. Again, this could be kind of bias in the sources that these people have become so kind of servile to the idea of having an emperor that they want him to come to power. But, I mean, the clinching bit of evidence here is the fact that we know that from Josephus, one of our historians, who particularly writes about the Jewish history, he actually counts back the rule from Tiberius death. So it gives us the number of years, days and months that he ruled. And by his kind of calendar of events, Tiberius is only coming to power in mid October. Augustus died in August, so you've got about two months going by where he's kind of prevaricating. So there isn't this kind of smooth transition. And the sources really mislead us here. Livia is supposed to have made these two announcements together that Augustus is dead and her son is emperor. It isn't quite so smooth. There seems to be a real period of kind of prevarication and uncertainty as.
- [25:43]
Tristan
Well, and people figuring out what to do. But Tiberius ultimately does end up the man to succeed as the next emperor. I mean, do we know much then about once we get to October? Let's say he does start to kind of consolidate his control. Does he target others straight away, or does he promise to follow in the footsteps of Augustus and do the same things that he did?
- [26:04]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
I think he wants to do things very much his own way, which is bold.
- [26:08]
Tristan
That's very bold.
- [26:09]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
It's really bold. But bear in mind, he's a big boy now, he's 55. He thinks he can do it all.
- [26:13]
Tristan
He's just past childhood. Absolutely.
- [26:15]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
He's had a wealth of experience across the Empire. He knows the empire very, very well. He's got a huge military record behind him. He's. He's got triumphs. He's had essentially sole power to Augustus. Before he died, he got given Tribunician power, which is one of those power without office situation. So he's kind of confident in himself. What he does though is he tries to defer to the Senate on as many issues as possible. So things like the placement of the legions, sort of buildings and things like that. He's referring to the Senate on quite a lot of things, which is interesting. It suggests a kind of step back. He also puts sort of elections of the magistrates, the key kind of governors of Rome in the hands of the Senate, taking it away from the people somewhat. And Augustus, when we look back on his rule, I think what we really remember him for, as well as these kind of like weird adultery laws and stuff, is his building program. You know, he's the one who claims to have found Rome made of brick and left it made of marble. Great quote, great quote. Fantastic. And you know, it's true. I mean he does reform a lot of the temples in particular. There's a real kind of reform. Tiberius isn't really interested in that. I mean he re establishes the Temple of Concord, but that's like his main kind of piece really on a kind of political side, sorry, architectural side. He seems to be doing things very different. He doesn't seem to be very concerned with trying to please people. He cuts the pay of actors. He's not keen on putting on loads of public shows to try and endear people to him. He even bans kissing Tristan. I mean, like killjoy happen nowadays.
- [27:45]
Tristan
Exactly. I mean how. How did he manage to enforce that? That's quite something. And is this also a time beyond imperium sine fine, like empire without limits? Of course, you've had the disastrous Teutoburg forest battle, Varus losing three legions in Germania, later years of Augustus. But Tiberius has a rich military record behind him. Is he still interested in expanding the empire or not?
- [28:09]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Well, to look at what he actually did, you'd seem not. I mean, it seems that most of his military experience is actually before he becomes emperor. I mean, there's no great equivalent kind military campaign after he becomes emperor. Which is really peculiar, isn't it? I mean, he seems to have really enjoyed that. What we read about him. He seems to be most comfortable when he's with the soldiers. He's the kind of man who likes to kind of get his hands dirty or his bottom dirty, even. He's actually sort of said to be. I don't mean that. I mean, he likes to sit on the turf with his men, eating lunch. Doesn't mean something's completely innocent.
- [28:43]
Tristan
Okay. Not having toilet facilities out in the field.
- [28:46]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
I came out really wrong. But, you know, he's a kind of like, down with the men type of figures. You'd think that he'd be really desperate to get back onto his horse, you know, go through the provinces. He's seen vast victories over the Pannonians, the Dalmatians. He's won victories. You know, he's very, very successful militarily, but he doesn't seem to be very desperate to reinstate this or kind of have some great victory once he's emperor.
- [29:13]
Tristan
Pannonians, Dalmatians, they are places in the Balkans, not dog breeds. Just also to say they're right as well.
- [29:18]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Yeah.
- [29:18]
Tristan
And so how much do you think that this new direction from Tiberius, you know, now that he's Emperor, wants to do things his own way, but not going back to the military sphere. How much of an influence do you think his mother has on all this?
- [29:32]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Well, the sources suggest a huge influence, which I don't quite believe. He seems to have a very difficult relationship with Livia, his mother, after he comes to power. She's getting on in years. I mean, bear in mind, he's 55. We've said that several times already. But she's, like, really getting quite elderly. And the Senate are very, very respectful of her. She is their Augusta. She is the woman who they decide they want to name on monuments. Tiberius gets really cross when they put her name and his name side by side. He doesn't understand why she's having such a big kind of part in his public life. And I think so far, so true. I kind of think there is probably a little bit of kind of conflict between the two of them over their kind of respective spheres of influence. One thing we do know about Tiberius, he's not very comfortable with women being in power, particularly when it comes to Germanicus wife. So Germanicus adopted son. His wife, Agrippina, is very happy there in Germany at the beginning. And, you know, Tiberius supposedly complains about there being nothing left for the generals to do when she's going around assuming so many of the responsibilities that are usually taken by men. So, you know, he doesn't seem to be very comfortable, per se, with women in power. And I think with Livia, he feels Slightly overshadowed by her and the fact that people are so respectful of her. So she suffers a fool when he doesn't go to her. And then when she actually dies, she dies in her mid-80s. He doesn't actually go to the funeral.
- [30:52]
Tristan
Wow. Oh, that's sad. But that's interesting if we kind of keep on that familial kind of links with Tiberius. At the moment you mentioned Germanicus there around his wife Agrippina, because this feels one of the big early ish events in his reign, which is how this all also comes tumbling down to another familial problem with this. Well, what happens to Germanicus?
- [31:16]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Poor Germanicus, Yes. I mean, Germanicus is a people's hero. He's really, really, really popular and he's a successful military man. He's been in Germany, he's been with Agrippina, their young children there, who include Caligula, by the way, little boots. That's how he gets his name. He gets given these little kind of military little boots and little military animals. Gaius, that's his name, but he's called Caligula because of this. So they're a very popular family. And Tiberius seems to really support Germanicus. But then rumours arise that he is responsible for his death. And this is because Germanicus has been sent east and Germanicus is looking after sort of the army there. And Tiberius decides to put Piso, who is a former consul, he'd served alongside him in the consulship, an old friend of his. He decides to send him to govern Syria and these two men fall out spectacularly in the east. And Germanicus is making requests of Piso, he is his senior, so he asks for forces to be sent to Armenia, for example, and Piso just refuses to do it. He reverses so many of the things that are asked of him and the situation becomes so bad between them that Germanicus actually renounces Piso's friendship. So all of this is said to sort of reflect back onto Tiberius. People are saying, well, maybe Tiberius really wanted to kind of knock Germanicus off his high horse. And so therefore he sent Piso out, knowing that he would disagree with him. And this would kind of, you know, put some of the limelight back onto Tiberius rather than Germanicus.
- [32:52]
Tristan
So he's jealous, I'm guessing.
- [32:53]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Yeah, which is quite difficult to see. I mean, AD 17. So two years before Germanicus dies, he wins a triumph and Tiberius arranges for money to be paid out to the Roman people in Germanicus name. This doesn't look like the action of someone who is Inherently jealous of him. But it says a lot about people's wariness of Tiberius that they're so willing to indulge this theory that he is behind the fallout between him and Piso. So what happens is Germanicus actually dies in the east and he, as he is dying, says that he's been poisoned by Piso because admittedly he has some really bizarre symptoms. I mean, we're told that he has weird bruising all over his body. We're told that he is frothing at the mouth. I mean, how do you explain that for a man who's in his 30s, in the prime of his life, he's healthy? How do you explain that? So Agrippina is absolutely distraught by this. She sails back with his ashes, holding some of the children by the hands. There's huge outpouring of emotion in Rome which Tiberius then makes the mistake of trying to quell. This is a bad move on Tiberius part. You understand why he does it, because people are overturning altars, there is public mourning in the streets, there's kind of civil unrest. And if there's one thing that Tiberius is, he is a stickler for discipline. And that begins with kind of military discipline. But when he's emperor in Rome, he's putting garrisons around the city, he's stamping out foreign cults, any kind of disorder. He wants all of it out the way he wants completely peaceful life, essentially. So he is upset by the outcry of emotion over Germanicus. The people's sympathy are very much with Agrippina and the family. And Tiberius says, okay, let's bring the trial to court. And he has it heard before the Senate. And Piso is found guilty. He's condemned, but he actually dies before he's punished. And Livia actually steps in and saves Piso's wife, Plancina, who is meant to be equally guilty. So it's really astonishing. So it's a really strange story. This is AD 19 and it puts a real blot on that year.
- [34:57]
Tristan
The Tiberius has now lost one of his potential successors, as you say, the adored Germanicus and his family, and lost quite a bit of guess, kudos and reputation from it as well, from his handling of it. Something which is also interesting that you mentioned. There was his bringing of troops into the city of Rome itself. So is this when we start getting the influence of the Praetorian Guard right at the center of Imperial control and the setting, the creation of an actual camp for these soldiers in Rome?
- [35:27]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Yes, I mean, this. Can you imagine the site of Rome completely changes. It suddenly looks like a completely different city as a result of this. There's a real kind of climate of, I think, anxiety and fear over this. And this is, as you say, largely the influence of the advisors that Tiberius has, namely one particular advisor who is Sejanus. He is the prefect of the Praetorian Guard. He is a trusted member. He's been working with the Imperial family for about 15 years by this point. But he's quite a shady character. He is ruthless, he is ambitious. He really seems to have ambitions beyond his station and he seems to be taking on an increasingly prominent role in terms of decision making. If I have one criticism of Tiberius at this stage in his rule, he's not very good at making decisions. He kind of dithers a lot over what to do. And Sejanus seems to be a lot more decisive and Tiberius comes to rely on him more and more.
- [36:19]
Tristan
So what then happens in these years? I guess the early 20s A.D. i mean, so Germanicus is gone, Livia dies is at 21. Around that time.
- [36:26]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Around that time.
- [36:27]
Tristan
Around that time. So Sejanus seems to be his main man in Rome. So what do we know about Tiberius's rule during those early 20s?
- [36:35]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
So it becomes embroiled and the sources give us a really good impression of this. It comes embroiled in these treason trials. So this great crime of this time is maestas in Latin, which means it's where we get our word majesty from. It's meant to be kind of crimes against the sort of the majesty of Rome and its people, but effectively it becomes kind of crimes against the Emperor and His Majesty. This has actually begun under Augustus. So this isn't a kind of invention of Tiberius that you have these trials for Maestas. They begun under Augustus. But the problem that arises, and this is partly linked to the fact that Tiberius seems to be so heavily reliant initially on the Senate, is you get growing corruption in the Senate and you get people who are willing to inform on each other for maiestas, knowing that if they secure a successful conviction that they are entitled to a proportion portion of the condemned's property.
- [37:29]
Tristan
Wow.
- [37:30]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
So senators start sort of almost spying on each other, looking around, trying to report each other for Maestas, real Gestapo.
- [37:37]
Tristan
Like almost kind of thing.
- [37:38]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
It becomes scary, you know, it becomes quite frightening. And it becomes a tool really for Sejanus in particular, to purge the Senate of members who are kind of obstructing him. And also Agrippina as well. I mean, there's real Sort of difficulty between Agrippina and Tiberius since she came back. Real sort of conflict between the two of them. And Sejanus starts by accusing a lot of her friends of treason. So she's seen people going down around her. And she has these two sons who are called Nero and Drusus. Sorry, got another. Another. Jesus. Banding together all those names. And initially, Tiberius starts to sort of raise these boys up. You know, he kind of admits them to the Senate. They look like possible, viable, you know, part of his future. But Sejanus starts to spread rumors that Agrippina is hungry for power. And he invents something called the Party of Agrippina, who said there are people gathering around her and that there could be civil war unless you do something about her sort of dominance within Rome. So she becomes a kind of a victim of all of this, and her downfall is really, really dire. You're looking at me wanting more.
- [38:44]
Tristan
Of course. You can't leave it.
- [38:46]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Hang on a ring. Yes, well, I mean, it happens after Tiberius has left Rome.
- [38:50]
Tristan
Oh, okay, right.
- [38:51]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
So it comes a little bit later. But what happens is Tiberius gets completely ground down by Sejanus complaining about her becoming kind of haughty. Tiberius then writes a letter and he denounces her for her arrogant and haughty mouth. He says that she is intent on going over to the legions in Germany and getting sort of support there and seeking refuge there. And then he denounces her eldest son, Nero, for sexual depravity, whatever that means at that point. And then Republic, I think, probably. Right. That's probably the extent of it. So he's sent off into exile. Agrippina is sent off into exile. In the meantime, she is actually beaten up by a centurion. She loses an eye. I mean, this is absolutely foul. This is horrible. And Drusus, the youngest son, is imprisoned and he's starved. And we're told that he actually eats the contents of his mattress so that he can stay alive. And he manages about eight days before he also dies. So this is really. I mean, Tiberius blamed Sejanus for this. Later. He says that, you know, Sejanus is really attacking the family of Agrippina, which I kind of think is slightly hiding behind Sejanus at that point.
- [39:58]
Tristan
His indecision going forward, or being lured into believing Sejanus, quite frankly. And poor old Caligula, he's the one left, isn't he? Which doesn't bode well for what happens next.
- [40:09]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Foreign.
- [40:15]
Commercial Narrator
Ready to change your Life for just $2 a day. Orangetheory Fitness delivers one hour workouts that combine strength and cardio to help you burn fat, build muscle and feel unstoppable. Right now, get a full month of unlimited classes for just $62. Don't wait. This offer ends soon. Visit orangetheory.com or your local studio and start your transformation today. Offer ends January 31, 2026. New members only. Premier membership, performance monitor and monthly billing required. Discount applies to first month only. Other terms apply. C Studio for details.
- [40:59]
Tristan
There is another important family figure who we need to talk about before Tiberius retreat. Once again linked to Sejanus, which is of course one of his sons, adopted sons. Germanicus is out the picture, but he still had another son at that time, didn't he? Another Drusus.
- [41:16]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Another Drusus.
- [41:17]
Tristan
Another Drusus. But his fate gets entwined with Sejanus and it doesn't end well.
- [41:22]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
No, it's really, really difficult because Drusus is married. He has his own son who's called Tiberius Gemellus.
- [41:29]
Tristan
Okay, back to Tiberius then.
- [41:30]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Let's call him Gemellus. Ok, Gemellus or Gemellus want to call him. And Drusus is really the hopes for the future for Tiberius really at that point. But rumour then begins to spread gradually that his wife is plotting against him and that she's having an affair with Sejanus.
- [41:49]
Tristan
The one and only Sejanus.
- [41:50]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
I know. And so, I mean, this is absolutely devastating because what happens is Jesus is still very young and he dies in 23 BC. And Tiberius, as far as Tiberius is concerned at that point, it's a natural death. He seems to be ill and there's no kind of suspicion about it. I mean, he's devastated by this, but it seems to be one of those things, you know, there's another death in the family. It's only a little bit time later, like a couple of years later, that he begins to learn that actually this wasn't a natural death, that Sejanus was behind the death of Drusus. And I mean, the source for this seems to be Sedonus own wife, Epicata, who seems to obviously she's got a bit of an axe to grind. Her husband's having an affair with this woman, Livilla, who is married to Drusus. So how sort of trustworthy this is, we don't know. But it says a lot, I think, about the character of Sejanus and also the character of Tiberius, that Tiberius believes that Sejanus is behind the death of Drusus. And this really tips him over the edge and I think this is responsible for a huge change in personality that we see in Tiberius at this stage.
- [42:56]
Tristan
Is this the change that is epitomised by the year 26 AD?
- [43:00]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
It is.
- [43:01]
Tristan
What is it?
- [43:03]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
AD 26. Tiberius, I would say. And it's always difficult to try and diagnose people with any kind of illness or mental illness, you know, when you're looking back from our point into the ancient past. But I would say that Tiberius seems to suffer from a mental breakdown. He decides to leave Rome. He goes off to Capri, the island of Capri. And he seems to be suffering from paranoia at this stage. He chooses Capri partly because it is so well isolated. It's surrounded by rocks, there are cliffs. He can live high up in a palace surrounded with very good kind of natural security. There's only one bay that people can come in by. So he feels kind of safe there. And as we've seen, he's gone off to Rhodes earlier in his career. It's not the first time he's disappeared from the public eye. He's done it again, but he intends to do it for good. He's quite old at this point, you know, he's in his mid to late 60s. He is kind of stooped, he's exhausted and he seems to turn to drinking. And what we read of his early life, he seems to be quite a abstemious kind of chap. You know, he's not one for big feasting or drinking.
- [44:09]
Tristan
A military man, right? You know, the discipline vibe.
- [44:11]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Exactly. He's disciplined. We don't read about him being a kind of real gourmand or being, you know, a real kind of largal out. Not they had lug. Not they had lug. But he's not that type of guy, you know. But suddenly he's drinking very, very heavily. So he seems to be sort of descending into alcoholism, into paranoia. He's having some kind of breakdown. He's on the island and he's just. He's so paranoid that. I mean, there's a great story that comes up in.
- [44:35]
Tristan
Are you thinking of the crab and the fish?
- [44:37]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
I'm thinking of the crab and the fish. I love the crab and the fish story. So there's a fisherman who catches this enormous. I think it's a mullet. And he decides to bring it to Tiberius and kind of make a gift of it to him. But in order to do so, he actually clambers up all of these rocks to reach the palatial home that Tiberius has set himself up in. And Tiberius is so astounded that this man has managed to essentially breach his security, you know, by reaching him, that he decides to slap him around the face with the fish instead. And, I mean, this is really Monty Python, isn't it? I mean, like, it really is, like, before its time. But then you have the man, this poor man thinking, you know, I just wanted to give you a present, you know, dude, what are you doing? He's like, thank goodness.
- [45:19]
Tristan
And it's not just the slapstick of slapping around the face, it's like the scales, isn't it? And so the flesh is ripped off the fisherman's body. So it's not just that I'm making.
- [45:27]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
This sound more humorous than it is.
- [45:29]
Tristan
Here I am filling in the gory details, but, you know, it is horrific.
- [45:33]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
It's horrific. But the man, the fisherman, poor fisherman, he actually says, thank goodness I didn't give you the crab that I caught earlier. And then Tiberius is like, right, crab, crab. And then, like, he gets the kind of whip around with the crab as well. So this poor man, and he's just trying to give him a present. I mean, this is terrible.
- [45:50]
Tristan
That is the Monty Python line, though, isn't it? Thank goodness I didn't bring the crab as well. The one thing you don't say. I guess we should mention the other part of this story, which is this idea that, you know, Capri does become an ancient Epstein island equivalent, quite frankly, and it's like paedophilia as well. And as difficult as it is, we should mention it because it's another key part of the rumors that really gain a lot of traction the longer that he stays in Capri.
- [46:15]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
This is really grim. Yeah, the sources are horrible in this. I mean, we have a lot of kind of descriptions of the fact that Capri is so kind of secretive. So it lends itself to this kind of rumor and this kind of report. There's a lot of woodland, and we're told that Tiberius was dressing up kind of young boys and girls in kind of as nymphs and as, like, Pan. He's kind of the woodland God. He's getting boys to kind of swim with him and kind of nibble him. I don't want to go into too much detail. It's just gross. I mean, it's really, really horrible. I mean, there's a kind of, like, slightly lighter side to it. He said to do his house up with lots of kind of artistic art. And I think my favourite bit is the only bit I can kind of laugh at amid all of this is. He's meant to have an erotic library. And the way that this is explained among the sources, I think it's. Tastus says that he had these books which showed you kind of sexual positions. It's just in case he had someone there to have kind of sex in front of him. They didn't know what to do. He could then get a library book down and show him how it was done. I just think it's just so weird. Anyway, so it's a really difficult one because how much of this do we believe? I mean, it's really, really, really hard to know. I mean, I'm not making any excuse for him, but I'm trying. What I am trying to do is to try to explain his changed personality when I say that I think he is sort of mentally. He's in a very, very deep depression. He has been completely knocked for six by this news about his son and his death. I think he is an alcoholic. He seems to be drinking all day. And I think he just doesn't seem to be completely in control in the way that he has been throughout his life. That obviously doesn't forgive his behavior, which is horrible. And it's just. It's hard to know whether all of it is true or that this is kind of people making stuff up. I kind of think he's in mid-60s. Is he really up to having all that sex? Is it all kind of mini voyeuristic? It's very, very difficult to know.
- [48:04]
Tristan
Yeah, very much so. So when does he decide that he does actually need to think about a successor?
- [48:11]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Surprisingly late. I mean, already in his kind of mid-60s, he's left it quite late, hasn't he, really? What happens is he is sent over. Gaius, who is the son of Germanicus, he's the surviving. So he's the future Caligula.
- [48:25]
Tristan
He's a teenager scathed beyond recognition from everything that's happened to his family.
- [48:29]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Exactly.
- [48:30]
Tristan
Since he's been a baby.
- [48:31]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Yeah, he's another one. He's had a really disastrous kind of upbringing. Really horrible. And in his teenage years he's said to have sex with his sisters. And, you know, it's like, really horrible. So if you've already got a troubled young man and then you're gonna send him to Capri to be with Tiberius, I mean, not the best kind of idea at that point, really, is he?
- [48:50]
Tristan
But, yeah.
- [48:51]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
So really, really quite difficult. But he seems to spend a lot of time there with Tiberius. So it's looking more and more like to be made A successor. And what Tiberius ultimately does is he lines him up together with Tiberius Gemellus the grandson, to be his kind of joint heirs.
- [49:05]
Tristan
And I guess maybe one, maybe a small victory that we can also talk about here is Sejanus crimes do finally catch up with him in the meantime.
- [49:14]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
They do. I mean, he thinks they probably had already.
- [49:17]
Tristan
Yeah, he's been in Rome for a while.
- [49:18]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
He's been in Rome. He's been. Yeah, he's been running everything and well, Tiberius actually accuses him of treason. So it comes back and I mean, this is. Yeah, it's horrible. He has him killed, he has his son hanged, he has his daughter raped and hanged and their bodies are rolled down the steps of Rome into the river. So that's the ending for them. And I think for the Romans it's very difficult. Was this kind of. Was it a sigh of relief? I think they're feeling very kind of vulnerable, the people in Rome at this point. They feel like they've been completely abandoned by Tiberius. And the really difficult thing is Tiberius. I think the great mistake he makes really is he lets everything go. You know, he's tried so hard and particularly across the Empire. So many of his kind of early military advantages are kind of undone and he leaves everyone in power for too long. He leaves governors in power for years and years and years. There's no kind of change around of staff. And when you have that happening across the Empire, you're bound to have a growth of corruption. I mean, Pontius Pilate is one of the guys. I think he's. Is he kind of nine years?
- [50:21]
Tristan
I think Ponti P. Yeah, he's around that time. He's the 30s. Of course he's the 30s.
- [50:25]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
He's left in power for nine years. I mean, come on. I mean, this just seems to be happening all over the place. He just doesn't seem to switch people around. He's just kind of completely let go. And obviously Rome is going to descend. The Empire's going to descend into chaos.
- [50:37]
Tristan
At that point he just becomes completely absent. He doesn't care at all, as you say, maybe that complete mental breakdown. So it's really not a good final few years for Tiberius. How does it all end?
- [50:49]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Well, he gets the age of. I think he's about 77. Is that right? AD 37, yeah. And he is supposedly kind of living it up still in Capri. And there are kind of rumors. He seems to get a chill, he seems to have a pain in his side. But he seems to try and carry on that great Old sort of military spirit stays with him. He tries to kind of persevere in spite of it all. And he actually, we read of him kind of going to an arena and kind of throwing a javelin at a boar, you know, even though he's, like, dying.
- [51:20]
Tristan
77. Throwing a javelin. Okay. Death still.
- [51:22]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Yeah. He seems to still be, you know, fighting and. Okay. But then he feels very, very unwell at Misenum, sort of in the Bay of Naples, and he dies there. And there was sort of. There are various suggestions. One of the sources suggests that maybe Caligula helped to finish him off at.
- [51:39]
Tristan
The end with a pillow or something like that.
- [51:41]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Exactly. And that he kind of fell just next to his bed and died there. We don't really know for sure how he died, but, you know, he's lived a ripe old age for that time.
- [51:49]
Tristan
He has, hasn't he? Especially also considering that he only became emperor when he was in his mid-50s and so rules for some 20 years. On the larger scale of it, we've largely focused on Tiberius the man. But if we focus on, like, Tiberius the reign and almost kind of take him out of it, how successful do you actually think the reign is in the whole story of the forming of the Roman Empire?
- [52:12]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Well, the funny thing is he might be a kind of disaster on the page when you read about him, as you say, as a man in the sources, but actually, he left Rome in quite a strong position, and it was quite wealthy. I mean, people were doing quite well. It wasn't left in the doldrums in terms of the financial strength. The economy of Rome was actually flourishing. And that's probably partly because he hadn't had any great military campaign during his rule. He was able to kind of preserve money in that way. There are also stories of him sort of extracting money from wealthy men and women actually across the provinces as well. So financially, Rome's quite stable. They have felt quite sort of rudderless within the city. I think they're kind of wanting a better leader. But Rome isn't as messy as you'd think. I think when you actually read the description of him actually disappearing for so long on Capri, you know, there is a lot of kind of mire in terms of the treason trials and the mess of Sejanus, and there's a lot of kind of ill feeling resulting out of that. But actually it's fairly stable and prosperous.
- [53:15]
Tristan
First of all, how do you think we should remember Tiberius today?
- [53:20]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
I think much earlier in his rule, he was a great military figure. You know, I think, yes, he was kind of propelled to power because of the family that he found himself in, but actually he did a lot off his own bat. You know, he achieved things militarily that other people had not achieved. He was respected in that sphere. And I kind of think he was very, very capable. He was a man of discipline. He was not outgoing. You know, he was not this kind of affable, likable character like Germanicus or so many of the other players around him. He seems to have been very introspective, very reserved, and because of that, people had great uncertainty of like where he was, what he was thinking. So I kind of imagine him as a kind of quieter figure, but someone who was actually capable but who really suffered after the death of his son and descended into something like tyranny.
- [54:13]
Tristan
Daisy, it's been absolutely fascinating listening to you talk through all of this. Like the story of Tiberius is a fascinating one with all of those tales that survive from the grim ones to the really interesting ones. Also regarding his military career and his pre emperorship career, thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast and explain it all to us.
- [54:32]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
Oh, my pleasure.
- [54:36]
Tristan
Well, there you go. There was my good friend Dr. Daisy Dunn, returning to the podcast to talk through the story of Tiberius, the Emperor Tiberius. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Thank you for listening. Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favor if you'd also be kind enough to leave us a rating as well, where we'd really appreciate that. Don't forget, you can also sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week. Sign up@historyhit.com subscribe. That's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.
- [55:27]
Dr. Daisy Dunn
WIX is the website builder that just keeps on giving. It's giving. I just built my whole site in under an hour. It's giving. I actually made that. Whoa. It's giving. Our sales are through the roof. So whether you need help explaining expressing yourself or just need something to make your life easier, WIX has you covered.
- [55:47]
Greenlight Infinity Advertiser
Try it out@wix.com did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving? Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with greenlight Infinity's driving reports. Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding, and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight infinity@Greenlight.com podcast.