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- [00:00]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [00:31]
Unknown Advertiser
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- [00:53]
Dr. Dominic Perring
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Dr. Dominic Perring
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Dr. Dominic Perring
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- [01:19]
Unknown Host
Hey guys, I hope you're doing well. I'm currently in East London at Spitalfields Market, and this might feel a bit of a random place for me to do this little introduction. But it's not because it was here that archaeologists discovered an extraordinary late Roman cemetery. Burial was dating, let's say, to the 4th century A.D. in the latter stages of Roman London's story. And that is what we're exploring today. We're exploring the fall of Roman London. What has archaeology revealed about the end of Londinium? Well, we're delving into all of that today in detail with Dr. Dominic Pering, emeritus professor from University College London and one of the leading experts on the topic. Let's go. London was originally a Roman city. For more than 300 years, it was the administrative and economic center of Roman Britain, of Britannia. At its height, Roman London had an estimated population of around 30,000. And you can still see the remains of some of these Roman buildings beneath the city of London today. But by the Beginning of the 5th century, London had become little more than a ghost town. So what caused this city's decline? How did London transform during the later decades and centuries of Roman Britain? What is the archaeology revealing? This is the story of the fall of Roman London with our guest, Dr. Dominic Perry. Dom, you've been on the podcast twice before, also about different parts of Roman London's story. It's wonderful to have you back and.
- [03:14]
Dr. Dominic Perring
It'S lovely to be here. Always my pleasure.
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Unknown Host
I guess we do this in the past, but it's always important, I feel, with Roman London, which is the first of all, it's to highlight the great wealth of archaeology that survives right beneath our feet in London for its Roman story.
- [03:28]
Dr. Dominic Perring
People have been looking into the past of Roman London, digging holes into it for centuries, and we've been studying it for almost longer than it was lived in. And the city nowadays, with all its big skyscrapers, generates hundreds of detailed excavations. The volume of information is incredible. The wealth of data.
- [03:43]
Unknown Host
And what is it about the soil of London that allows so much extraordinary archaeology to survive?
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Dr. Dominic Perring
Well, in part, it's simply having been occupied for 2000 years, ground levels rise rather like a tell in the Middle east. It's got 11 meters or so of stratigraphy, and stratigraphy is great for archaeology, but also the River Thames creates these rather splendid anaerobic, waterlogged conditions. So when you get close to the waterfront, you've got excellent timber survival. And that lets us look into all sorts of things that don't necessarily survive elsewhere.
- [04:15]
Unknown Host
Beautiful things like tablets as well, with records of business transactions from thousands of years.
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Dr. Dominic Perring
London's writing tablets from the Bloomberg HQ are a stunning resource, very much to the earlier period, but the waterfronts themselves, just the timbers that get brought in. And the great thing about London's archaeology is each of those timbers has a felling date and dendrochronology gives us precise dates for when bits of London were built, when it was changed, and also gives us gaps. And the gaps are sometimes just as interesting as the bits we have.
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Unknown Host
So with the story of later Roman London, can we also, at times, also pinpoint certain events and certain building changes?
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Dr. Dominic Perring
We can up until the 4th century, when we start to see less coming in in terms of timber supply. And that in itself is an interesting question. Why is less timber coming in? But up until the 4th century, there's pretty good dendrochronology for most major phases of urban change and a bit of.
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Unknown Host
Background to London's story. So it's founded very close to or in line with the actual Roman conquest of southern Britain with Emperor Claudius.
- [05:14]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Yes, there's debate about that amongst professional circles. I'm very much an AD 43 chap, and I think that there is a military presence here, contemporary of the conquest. But the evidence for that is not conclusive. It's indicative. And others would see it perhaps as being a few years later, but it's in those 40s AD, somewhere between 43 and 50, for sure.
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Unknown Host
And it experiences quite a rapid rise, if I'm not mistaken.
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Dr. Dominic Perring
It does. And it's very early on. It's a major hub for introducing the supplies that the advancing troops need. It gains administrative roles relatively early. We know the procurator in charge of the emperor's property and supplying the troops financial interests. We know the proctor is based here by the Neronian period. And of course, when Boudicca and her rebels sweep through the southeast, it's one of the targets of that rebellion. And at that time, London is already a pretty substantial site, but also it.
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Unknown Host
Revives pretty quickly after that. There seems to be something really resilient about Roman London too.
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Dr. Dominic Perring
Yes, I mean, that resilience is from the top down. I think it's to do with the agents of Rome needing to quell the rebellion, needing to re establish control of the province. And London is the obvious focal point for them to both bring in the support mechanisms to bring in the supplies. So they enhance and rebuild the waterfront. And there's a lot of construction activity not immediately after the revolt, but a year or two afterwards. And it gets busy again pretty quickly.
- [06:44]
Unknown Host
Grows and grows and grows. And we were discussing where to kind of begin our chat on the fall of Roman London before recording. And we decided on the mid 3rd century AD. So can you give us a sense of what Roman London looks like at this time and how prominent, how big and prosperous this city has become?
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Dr. Dominic Perring
London has become a walled city in probably early third century, probably Caracalla, a member of the Severan dynasty who took control of the Roman Empire when his father died in York. And so I think probably the town walls are early third century, and there is a busy period of building in London at around that date. So London is quite prosperous, that things like the Temple of Mithras is coming in a few decades later on. So we have a wealthy centre and probably by then a formal capital. Caracalla, or Severus before him have divided Britain up into two halves, his two provinces. One is made capital at York and the other, Britannia Superior, almost certainly has its capital at London. So we think this is a major period of investment in the architecture, of public munificence and power.
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Unknown Host
Do we know much about the population itself at that time, in the beginning of the third century?
- [07:54]
Dr. Dominic Perring
London has shrunk since its height, the peak period for London's population is probably the late first, early second century, which is when it is most involved in the supply, the making and mending that's needed by the people based here. London may have gone through a plague event in the second century. I think the odds of that having happened are pretty strong. Antonine plague. But what we do know is that whether it was the plague that caused it or not, the city has significantly contracted in population, not in size. People still occupy a large area, but instead of lots of closely packed timber built and clay built structures, we've got rather larger townhouses, some built in stone, some still in timber. So there's a prosperous but genteel site rather than a busy throbbing heart of the province.
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Unknown Host
But with the prosperity of London at that time, should that be centered around the harbour area, around the maritime routes? Because if I'm thinking of the early third century with the Severans, you know, this is an empire stretching from Britain to Mesopotamia to modern day Iraq.
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Dr. Dominic Perring
We have lots of evidence for early third century waterfront rebuilding in London, and not quite as grand as the earliest waterfronts, but still busy. And a lot of that waterfront rebuilding can be dated quite closely. And it does look as if some of it may just have been actually associated with Clodius Albinus, a usurper before the Severan dynasty. But when the Severans regain control of Britain, they start rebuilding the waterfront. And then the Severans are campaigning in York, not York, in Caledonia, through York. And that also seems to be a period of waterfront renewal. So yes, London's waterfront is busy and important into the middle of that century, the middle third century.
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Unknown Host
Can you also give us a bit more sense of the layout of Roman London at that time? So should we just be thinking north of the river? I mean, how big an area are we thinking?
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Dr. Dominic Perring
The square mile? The City of London is still the main part of the Roman settlement. This is where the forum is, where the public baths are, other major buildings. But south of the river there is an enormously important suburban settlement which has urban characteristics. In Southwark, it's just as complicated archaeology based on the islands that are now beneath Borough High Street, Borough Market, that sort of area.
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Unknown Host
And there's a bridge, there's a main. The London Bridge of today. There was a London Bridge of Roman times.
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Dr. Dominic Perring
And London Bridge is key. It is London Bridge that makes London the site. It is the combination of having a tidal river so the ships can come up river, and a bridge that crosses this river, which is a major barrier, is what brings all the road Network. You know, Rome's famous for its Roman roads. And whilst they all go to Rome, most of those going to Rome go through London. Sorry, from Britain. Most of those from Britain go through London on their way to Rome.
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Unknown Host
Got Watling street and Stane Street. All of those ones kind of end up in that area. And probably was mentioned. Amphitheatre. We know where that was beneath Guildhall.
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Dr. Dominic Perring
Guildhall Yard. And that's. You can visit that in the Guildhall Art Gallery in the basement. Lovely bit of presentation there.
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Unknown Host
Theatre.
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Dr. Dominic Perring
I think there must have been one. Just chatting about that earlier on. I think there must have been one. We don't quite know where it is, although I've. I've got a guess, but.
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Unknown Host
And big bath houses on the riverfront.
- [10:58]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Several bath houses. We've got a major bathhouse. I think people used to think it was the Governor's palace, but I think some of the more recent work there continues to build up evidence that it's more likely to have been a bathhouse. Not proven, but we've got other bathhouses. There's some quite recent work going on that shows that there are four or five bathhouses in Roman London.
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Unknown Host
And being a port town. And I know we'll probably revisit this later as we explore the this later in London story as well, but I also want to ask it here. Do we know much about the population makeup at that time, or should we be thinking largely Romans or largely immigrants or largely local Britons from all over?
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Dr. Dominic Perring
I think that the native British component of population was not substantial. We've got ancient DNA isotopic analysis, we've got epigraphy through the tombstones, we've got the letters you talked about from Bloomberg with documented names and identities. And most that suggests that we've just got a very cosmopolitan place, probably dominated by both the administrative infrastructure, partly military, but also administrative, and even more so by the support mechanisms that sit beneath it. In particular, the merchants, the traders, the importers, the exporters, the shippers and their guilds we know are present here in London as well. So that brings in people from all over. And just as with Hadrian's Wall, where we know of people from all over the Roman world, London is the same. North Africa, eastern Mediterranean, lots from Gaul, quite a few from the Germanies. And as you get into later Roman London, we've even got Adna, which suggests the present of Asians. We've got some possible Chinese people in London in the Roman period. Wow.
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Unknown Host
That certainly whets the appetite for. When we get to that Point in the chat today, Don, but I feel we've now nicely kind of created an image of what Roman London looks like in the beginning of the third century. When we get to the mid third century. I mean, elsewhere it's called the third century crisis. But it also feels like this is a big turning point in London story as well. What happens in the mid third century?
- [12:56]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Very much so. I've talked about that there might be a second century contraction, perhaps associated with plague events. There is also a third century contraction, less well defined. The reasons for it partly tied up with the economic changes of what's called the crisis. Not everyone agrees with the term. There's also another plague event that hits their own world at that time, the Plague of Cyprian. And we've then got changes going on in the urban landscape, of which the really significant one is the change to the waterfront. And just as we've been talking about how important the waterfront was in the earlier city, there's an exercise in crudely hacking back the timber revetments that formed the quays and making what looks more like a bank, perhaps even a bank and ditch, but certainly destroying the key sides as useful key sides, and perhaps defensive in nature. Dating imprecise, because we're talking about damage to something rather than something we can date from its own internal evidence. But that does look to be broadly coterminous. We're talking about 250s, that sort of period.
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Unknown Host
So their main. Well, the main source of maritime ships coming to London, you know, the main area that they would go to and congregate and bring trade into Roman London, they get rid of that. I mean, why?
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Dr. Dominic Perring
They get rid of most of it, not necessarily all of it, because we've not dug every little bit of that waterfront. And I suspect that probably a few locations for beach landings were kept, but the bulk of it has gone. That is in part because of how unusual the port was in the earlier periods. You've got major campaign activities requiring very significant levels of shipment of goods. You've got a large urban population. As you get into that later period, there is less need for that, as it were. But also the carving back of the waterfront is a positive act. Somebody's done it. It's not simply letting it go to decay and being abandoned. It's not neglect. It is positively changing its use. And the idea of a defensive feature there obviously begins to make us worry about the security on the seas at this time. We've got the rise of piracy as an issue in the third century. It's much Debated amongst historians and archaeologists how much this is a lament of the written sources or something that's really happening. But we know about the Saxon shore being developed with its forts in late antiquity. So there is a sense that something major is changing and it might have been involving some level of threat or anticipated threat.
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Unknown Host
But also you get that almost division of the Roman Empire at that time, don't you, where little bits are kind of taken away? Zenobia in the east, the Gallic Empire as well.
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Dr. Dominic Perring
Could that be a reason? The Gallic Empire is very material. And of course, the Gallic Empire both changes the political structures that apply to London, because London falls within its remit, but also it's interrupting access to the Mediterranean world as a whole. So the northwest provinces have been separated from their own empire. And some of that may well indeed be in response to the problems of security, particularly on the Rhine, but throughout the North Sea and that part of the world. So there's a sort of sense in which that the breakup of Rome at that time is as local arrangements are coming to the fore in trying to deal with the political and security situation, and also as Rome Central is worrying about other things, as it were.
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Unknown Host
Does it almost feel that, as you say, it's an evident deliberate decision that. That archaeology is happening there with the harbours and more focus on defences? But do you think then, if there was perhaps a bit of a. There was less trade coming from the Mediterranean to London at that time, do you think it was still a big sacrifice to do to kind of change it from commercial harbour front activities to having more defensive stuff?
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Dr. Dominic Perring
The shift from harbour to defended site is key. And of course, it's going in two directions. One of them is simply, do you need to marshal supplies through a big hub? Do you need everything to come into London's port, or can you start to arrange for more local supplies? So we've got troops stationed in the northern parts of the province. Perhaps they are better supplied through South Shields, through arrangements along the coast. So London is perhaps no longer as essential as a supply hub. And the same goes the other way. What you're extracting from the province can be taken out in different ways, but also just, yeah, centralising as opposed to localising. And I think London becomes less vital as a place for the marshalling of.
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Unknown Host
Goods as the third century goes on. You've had that division of the Roman Empire with the Gallic Empire in the northwest, Zenobia in the east. Then Aurelian comes along, defeats them and reunites the Roman Empire under One figure again, as this is all going on, how does London fare as the decades pass in the third century?
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Dr. Dominic Perring
It actually does quite well in the late third century. And one of the features of this is exactly that of when the Gallic empire is reabsorbed by Rome Central, as it were, by Rome itself. And Aurelian is the emperor largely responsible for that. It's a fairly peaceful exercise. Actually. Aurelian, who we know of course from Rome, his Aurelian walls is perhaps, or perhaps probus later on. But at that rough time, London's waterfront, which had previously been a rather crude bank and ditch arrangement. I say ditch, it's the River Thames really. But a Philly crude arrangement is then enhanced by the creation of a riverfront wall.
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Unknown Host
Oh, okay.
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Dr. Dominic Perring
The walls around London that were put there in the early third century, probably by Caracalla, fairly certainly, Severin. Those walls don't enclose the waterfront because the waterfront's important and you want access to it and you want a long set of keys. But in the late third century, the waterfront having diminished in importance, you can then wall along that facade, as it were, the riverfront side of it too. And at that date, then the port of London is clearly not functioning in quite the way it used to.
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Unknown Host
Because physically getting a big wall, a riverside wall there, doesn't that sever Roman London from the River Thames?
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Dr. Dominic Perring
It does, I think, as I said, we probably have a select number of watergates left. There are clues from the later distribution of seals that people have put on goods that were exempt from port taxes, which get knocked off and end up on the foreshore. And they do suggest that some of the places that became the first ports of medieval London were also used as watergates and places where beaches could be used for shipping. But we're talking much smaller scale, much more focused and high status prestige goods rather than large scale supplies.
- [19:21]
Unknown Host
So how significant would you say that these moments are? You know, the building of more defences and then ultimately the building of a riverside wall in almost step, like setting the foundations, laying the base for an ultimate decline of Roman London.
- [19:36]
Dr. Dominic Perring
I think we have to go a little bit later in, in the cycle of what's going in London to call to see that. I think that what's going on in the late third century is in a sense a revival. The building of the riverfront wall is attended by new arrivals of new kinds of supplies of ceramics which suggest new networks of provisioning. Things like Alice Holt pottery from the Alice Holt forests in Hampshire are being imported in perhaps associated also with timber supplies at that date, because there are forests in those areas and other supplies. So there's a rebalancing of the regional economy associated with London's. I would call it a revival in the late third century. And the cemeteries are getting busy as well at this date as well.
- [20:16]
Unknown Host
But more locally acquired goods coming into London, a more locally produced network, a.
- [20:21]
Dr. Dominic Perring
More regional framework of supply, a more regional basis of the economy. Foreign.
- [20:32]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [21:03]
Unknown Advertiser
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- [21:22]
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- [21:55]
Don Wildman
What started the Civil War? What ended the conflict in Vietnam? Who was Paul Revere and did the Vikings ever reach America? I'm Don Wildman and on American History hit My expert guests and I are journeying across the nation and through the years to uncover the stories that have made America. We'll visit the battlefields and debate floors where the nation was formed, meet the characters who have altered it with their touch, and count the votes that have changed the direction of of our laws and leadership. Find American History Hit twice a week, every week. Wherever you get your podcasts American History Hit. A podcast from History Hit.
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Unknown Host
We must also talk about those later decades of the third century where you have Simon Elliott's called him the pirate King. But you have these breakaway Roman leaders in Britain. Can you tell us about London at that time and who these people are?
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Dr. Dominic Perring
Well, I, I we've mentioned the fact that Frankish piracy and other forms of piracy may have been an issue in the mid third century. And this is certainly seen to be an issue as you go into the later third century. And we know that the Menapian cause North Gaul Caus is given command of the attempts to suppress Pyrrhus in the area. And there's various panegyrics and other documents which go into this at quite length. And he is accused of having taken for himself some of the booty he was recapturing from pirates. Probably a device simply to push him down a bit because he was getting a bit too powerful. So he sets up a breakaway empire, as it were sometimes referred to as the British Empire, although I think that probably is a modern construct as a term. But Parausius is succeeded by a chap called Allectus. They're involved in additional building works along the Saxon shore because we've got dendrochronology timber dating showing that these building works at that time and the craftsmen involved, the engineers involved in that exercise were brought into London in the and here I'm going to forget my exact date, let's say the 280s, 280something to build something, something quite big and chunky by what's now the Millennium Bridge in the foothills of St. Paul's Cathedral. But there we go. But the dendrochronology of that is excellent. I suspect that what they're building is a palace complex and possibly the foundations found there underneath the City of London Boys School are probably the foundations of a temple structure that was never finished. So there's a building at program as the British Empire. The Corazian and Allectus episode is going on and using the same craftsman because the building techniques are identical and the dates are the year after to the things that have been going along on the Saxon shore.
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Unknown Host
But that's interesting. Like the two 80s, of course you get the emergence of Diocletian and then the forming of the Tetrarchy elsewhere in the Roman Empire. And, and they're defined by having their own great palaces at places throughout. You think Elector saw that and thought, oh hang on, I'd like something similar.
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Dr. Dominic Perring
In London, as we know from the coinage of the period, there's A very strong sense that people based in Britain saw themselves as partners in a Roman Empire where Augustae were emperors in charge of different parts of the empire and they wanted to see themselves as equals in that exercise. And so, yes, it would make enormous sense for them to have seen a palace complex in London to match the palace complex in Trier, to match what's going on in Milan, in Thessalonica. These are the big sites of late antiquity of the Tetrarchy. And I'm sure that those ideas would have been inspirational in Britain at the time.
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Unknown Host
It doesn't end well for Allectus though, does it? He doesn't rule for very long.
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Dr. Dominic Perring
It doesn't. And we get Constantius Dolos who is one of the official emperors, although call them official, he's always a bit, you know, it's the ones who win are the ones who are official. But reconquers Britain, there's a detailed account of the reconquest and we have the splendid Arras medallion which is the first visual representation of London.
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Unknown Host
No way.
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Dr. Dominic Perring
Yeah.
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Unknown Host
Can you tell us a bit about this coin? What is the Arras medallion?
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Dr. Dominic Perring
There's a series of special, they're not everyday use coins. These are bullion in beautiful medallion, big coin shape. And a whole hoard of these containing various other quite important objects were found in Arras in northern Gaul, probably accumulated by someone who'd been part of the campaigns of reconquest of Britain. And this particular medallion shows Constantius arriving London and you see London on its knees. Lon. Lon is written at the base of the medallion, marking the city as the city. And you can see its turreted facade. It's all a stock image. I'm sure it's not an attempt to actually portray what was really here in London, but it is representing London as submitting to the light of Rome being restored.
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Unknown Host
That is the first ever depiction image of London in history that we're aware of.
- [27:19]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Yes.
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Unknown Host
And so London is brought back into the Roman fold and is certainly not on its own last knees. It's certainly not on its knees by the end of the third century. So how should we be imagining it as we get into the beginning of the fourth?
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Dr. Dominic Perring
Well, what we have of course, is Constantine being declared emperor in York and returning to reunite the Roman Empire. The Tetrarchy we've been discussing that Carausius wished to be part of was the idea of an empire which essentially had regional commands. There were emperors of east and west, there were junior emperors of east and west and there was causes and allectus over in Britain. But Constantine is a little bit impatient with the risks of such fragmentation of power and is quick to try and pull all the threads back together under his control. So Britain initially is probably going to be rather benefiting from the fact you've got an emperor based in York, but his interest is moving quickly across to consolidate power and control. He moves across to Trier and then he moves further east and essentially he withdraws the need for more regional local government structures back into a Rome centric and a Constantine centric system. And that probably contributes to a bit of a decline in interest in London. So once we get into the 4th century, following Constantine's elevation, we get less in the way of archaeological activity going on in London, because the early 4th.
- [28:46]
Unknown Host
Century and the 4th century's general outside of the walls of London. It's a bit of a booming time though, isn't it, for villas, but that's.
- [28:53]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Not countryside is doing well and there are different phases of that activity. And quite how much that's Constantinian is another matter. I think quite a lot of that is later, some of it's earlier. But London itself doesn't seem to be a particularly strong beneficiary of Constantinian influence. We've got, I think the last dendrochronology dating from London comes from some refurbishments down to quite a handsome rear extension with mosaics in a house underneath the site. NAV1 poultry next to bank Station. And again, I don't offhand remember the exact date of that, but I think I'm fairly sure that's Constantinian. But that dendro is the last imported significant timber we see being used in London. I'm not to say there aren't later imports, but archaeologists haven't found them.
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Unknown Host
Do we hear anything if it is a bit of a time of change for London at this time? Do we have any names of any administrative figures or any people who were big in London at that time?
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Dr. Dominic Perring
There's a shortage of the level of documentation that we have in the earlier imperial period. We do not. I mean, we don't have a Tacitus writing about what's going on. Our sources are more concerned with activities elsewhere in the Empire. So we don't have a full list of chronology of who was the in charge of Britannia inferior, Britannia superior. And more of the information we have comes from the war, where we've got quite a lot of people being commemorated, but that's now part of a different province. So the division of Britain into smaller provinces, a process which had started as early as Caracalla is continuing to shrink the political base of each site. But Britain is then brought back into a single command structure under a vicar. So you get a vicarious.
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Unknown Host
Under a vicar.
- [30:33]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Vicarious, the term vicar. I mean, they are borrowing from the same source. So. And at that date, we do have some names and I'm going to struggle to remember them offhand. Where we're better off is we do know of some of the first Church councils are drawing on people from the different bishoprics established in Britain. And we know of. I think it's Restitutus is the one who attends the council of Ireland, 314 AD. So that is Constantinian and fits with what's going on.
- [31:00]
Unknown Host
And Restitutus, is he based in London or is he based in a Christian community?
- [31:04]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Yes, London is. Again, I've forgotten the Latin definition, but we've got two references to what could be London in the bishops who attended that council. But one of them is thought to be a misspelling for Lincoln, although I'm not entirely sure. It's unlikely that London could have generated the need for two bishops. But maybe Southwark is seen as a separate diocese, who knows? Unlikely. But we've definitely got these church figures beginning to appear on the scene because, of course, after Constantine, Christianity is on its way to becoming the religion of state.
- [31:36]
Unknown Host
Well, I hope you don't mind, then, if we look at religion now in Roman London, it feels appropriate then that we do start with Christianity. So do we know much about Christianity in Roman London at this time?
- [31:47]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Yes and no. Archaeologically, Christianity is not particularly well attested in Britain, and that's partly when we get to what happens at the end of the 4th century, that the sites of Christian worship are not perpetuated into later periods and therefore we don't have the grander architecture that emerges. Early Christianity. The main practices of the early Church can take place in the house. I mean, you have your Eucharist, your meal in the dining room, you have your baptisms in the bathhouses and all of the nice houses have dining rooms and bathhouses. You don't need to consolidate those activities more centrally, but as Christianity becomes a religion of state, the control of those practices becomes more important. So second and third century Christianity, is probably present in Britain, but as a virtually invisible private practice. Fourth century Christianity, yes, we've now got a bishop. Do we also have episcopal basilicas, the things that become cathedrals? Being built at this time? Possibly, I think, is the answer to that. There is a. A building of the mid 4th century dated by pottery to probably after AD 350. That sneakily does look as if it could be a basilical church. And that would be the Episcopal church, where the bishop would have been able to practice. And that would be more useful for the higher state level political acts of Christianity. The building itself, it was excavations not that far from the Tower of London, just up and across a bit, Colchester House. And there it's a basilica. Various foundations have been found. It's associated with quite high status decorative work. We've got bits of marble, bits of window glass. Some of the finds from the site, a particular kind of tatsa cup vessel, are often associated with ritual sites. It has an unusual coin profile and there's lots of little hints that there's something slightly ritual about the building. But the main reason for believing it to be, I'm gonna call it a cathedral. The term is not necessarily the best. The main reason for believing that is simply it's a large basilica built at a time when other public buildings are being quarried for stone. They're not being used. You know, if we go across to the Forum, that falls out of use early in the fourth century.
- [34:07]
Unknown Host
Wow.
- [34:08]
Dr. Dominic Perring
And the Forum basilica has roof collapse. It has some robbing of floors. We know it's still there in the late third century. But somewhere in the first half of the fourth century, probably the earlier decades of the fourth century, the Forum basilica is largely demolished and abandoned.
- [34:24]
Unknown Host
And do you think that is a reflection of the change in administrative habits that's occurring in the Roman Empire at that time?
- [34:30]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Yes, it's a change in need of how the public life is performed. You don't need quite the same large public buildings. More power is being exercised through individual officers who are using their private properties, their villas, their mansions. So that's part of it. It's also that the Forum itself was built as an engine for the storage and redistribution of goods. It relates in a sense back to what's going on at the port, if the port is no longer needed. In quite the same way, the Forum is certainly over provided with storage facilities. And that over provision can take a while to feed through into people saying, well, actually, let's borrow some stone from this and rebuild. So there is a question mark as to why a basilica is being built in the mid to late 4th century, when these sorts of buildings have been going out of use earlier in the 4th century. And you try and think, well, what's the special use that's coming in at this particular date? And that would merit high status decoration? So could it be A granary nice or veneer and window glass. So the feeling is it could be, but it's entirely speculative in the sense we've got no epigraphy, we've got no finds the site, which pin it down. Exactly.
- [35:36]
Unknown Host
I mean, and of course, given that Christianity is bigger in the east at that time anyway and much less in the West, I mean, is. Is there, although. You're frowning, Elizabeth.
- [35:43]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Yes, I am frowning. I mean, we see the evidence of it more clearly, as I've said, where it carries on and when you've got 5th century and you know, the eastern Mediterranean, some of its best architecture dates the 5th and 6th centuries. These complexes become decorated with lovely mosaics and we see them, but that's because they're later, just not. Not by a lot, but a bit. Yes, we've got more documentary evidence for what's going on in Christianity in the east, but that's because we've got more documentary evidence for what's going in the east, full stop. You know, we don't have the source material from Roman Britain, so yes, it may well be that there is a residual paganism. Yes, it may well be that there is a lot more going on in Britain that we don't know about. But I think it's premature to say that Christianity isn't a significant issue, particularly in towns like London, because London still, despite shrinking, despite changing in character and shrinking population rather than area, despite those change in character, it's still an important, important, important place for important people. And the vicar of Britain we get in the 4th century is here alongside other departments of state. They're described in the noticia, the ignitatum, admittedly a later source, but it just doesn't bother to cross out the British bits of it. So it still describes the treasury here, it describes various commands and secretaries and administrators and other things. And London is almost certainly continuing to be home to high status administrators, many of whom have forging careers which are not just based in Britain and many of whom we know are Christian. They have lives in the Christian world as Christian is on its way to becoming the religionist state. I'm going to jump around a bit chronologically here because I know you're going to want to talk to me about Magnus Maximus later on, I'm sure, but Magnus Maximus is a general in Britain who becomes a usurper and takes control of his forces to become an emperor, trying to repeat the Caroz's exercise, as it were. And in 383 he heads off to the continent to forces his claim for Power. But he writes, I think, to a Pope, although I haven't actually checked the primary source in detail, but he writes that he has taken baptism just before he goes off to do these things. And this is the sort of person who goes straight from baptism to the imperial throne. And he was in Britain at that time and likely to be using sites such as London as the main seats of power. We've got other sorts of references to other people we know passing through Britain who are again, shifting a little bit later in time. We've got a bishop in Constantinople in the early 5th century who'd previously been a vicar of Britain. So he's a bishop. Someone suspects his Christianity is quite a strong part of his makeup. And we've got direct evidence, we've now got several Cairo, these little. The Greek kai and rho from the first letters name.
- [38:37]
Unknown Host
Yes, yeah.
- [38:37]
Dr. Dominic Perring
And we've got. Portsher was found in Brentford in the 1970s and was put in a box with other finds. And only about five years ago were a group of volunteers going back to these boxes and cleaning them up and tidying them up as part of the London Archaeological Archive System, and spotted that there was one of these original early scratched Cairos on this sherd of pottery from Brentford. Recent excavations in Southwark produced another, and for a long time we've known of one from Coptwall Avenue on a pewter vessel. So there's a variety of bits and pieces that tell us there are Christians here, which is what we'd expect. So I think. I mean, I've gone a limb here. Britain may not have adopted Christianity in quite as vigorous a fashion as other parts of the Roman world, but I do think London would have been essentially, administratively, at any rate, a Christian city. Wow.
- [39:26]
Unknown Host
I guess slightly related to that, then, is. Shall we quickly talk about the cemeteries? Because outside the walls you have lots of cemeteries, don't you, like from Spitalfield and elsewhere. And I'm presuming that quite a few of the skeletons, the bodies, do they date to this time, to this later period in Roman London story?
- [39:42]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Yes. Most of our cemetery evidence comes from the later period, simply because there's a broad shift towards inhumation from cremation, early burials. I mean, there's always cremation and there's always inhumation. It's not all one and all the other, but the favored method of dealing with rich people's burial was to cremate them in the early Roman period, and in the late Roman period, it is to bury them. And that's not just about Christianity, that a whole series of different belief systems also begin to see bodily resurrection as part of the suite of things that you might expect. So rather than having your soul liberated by the cleansing fire, your body can physically carry you into the next world by being buried in an appropriate fashion. So our cemeteries, weird thing about Roman London is that when you dig it as an archaeologist, the houses are all early and the dead people are all late. And that's because the city has shrunk, so therefore more early houses. But the burial grounds have grown because burying dead people for resurrection, you've got to lay them out in rows. You've got to worry about not too much intercutting, although there is intercutting. So there's a much greater survival of that evidence in the later years.
- [40:46]
Unknown Host
And what are we learning from these burials about the people? I've got the lady of Spitalfield is the name that comes up straight away.
- [40:53]
Dr. Dominic Perring
And there's wealth displayed in the cemeteries and there's a lot of excellent work being done by Rebecca Redfern and other colleagues on the dead of that period. They're doing so much research and publishing so well that I'm bound to be a little bit behind the curve on some of the things that they're up to. But again, this is reverting back to things like the isotope analysis to look at where people grew up and through the enamel in their teeth and also the ancient DNA analysis that we can now get some information from. And this reverts back to what I was saying about having such a cosmopolitan population. Of course, one of the things that I know Rebecca Redfern is working on right now is the incredible bias towards male burials in some of the earlier parts of these cemeteries. This is more a feature of the third century than the fourth century, but those burial grounds are something like four men to every women found in these cemeteries.
- [41:48]
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- [42:19]
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- [42:52]
Unknown Host
Well, let's move on towards the latter half of the fourth century, then. So London still is still an important place at this time. You've got the key important officials, as you say, there a Christian city as well. So, extraordinary story of London in the 4th century, but if we get to that figure of Magnus Maximus and London in the later 4th century, do you start to see a transformation once again in its architecture at that time?
- [43:14]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Yes, we do. There are cycles and this is why I hate the term decline. London does decline, but then it revives, Then it declines, then it revives. Yes.
- [43:21]
Unknown Host
It's not a straight line, is it?
- [43:22]
Dr. Dominic Perring
It's not linear and that's very important to get across. So, for instance, we've got in the middle of the 4th century, a period of renewal of sorts. Not majorly, not massive new population, but this is when, for instance, they put the bastions on the city wall. Now, those bastions are not, I mean, they have a defensive purpose, but as with the earlier city walls, it's as much about status and it's as much about the state saying, we still love you, we still care, we're still investing. Simon Esmond Cleary has studied the sorts of defences in Roman Gaul very closely and comes up with the close relationship between places that are important to the administration and the provision of defences. So the addition of bastions to London's wall fits with what I've just been saying about the Noticia Dignitatum and the administrators being based here. And those bastions are dated to the, I'm going to guess, 360s. It could be a little bit earlier, it could be a little bit later. There's coin dating beneath one of them showing it certainly isn't there before the 350s.
- [44:22]
Unknown Host
They're semicircular, right, in their categories, and.
- [44:24]
Dr. Dominic Perring
They add them to select locations on the city wall, primarily those that are facing onto hard ground. So they don't tend to bother so much with the soggy stuff around mortgage or the riverfront or the Fleet. But in particular, that stretch on the east side of the wall where the Tower of London is now and up from there.
- [44:41]
Unknown Host
Yes, because you can see an example in the Barbican Gardens today, can't you?
- [44:44]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Near there. Those are later.
- [44:46]
Unknown Host
Ah, okay.
- [44:46]
Dr. Dominic Perring
There are medieval additions to the line of bastions. There are Roman Bastions, which are the solid ones. I'm oversimplifying here, but most of the solid ones are shown to be Roman in date and most of the hollow ones have been shown to be medieval in date.
- [44:59]
Unknown Host
There you go. Thank you for correcting me.
- [45:01]
Dr. Dominic Perring
So not all but the solid bastions, little platforms perhaps for artillery. But as I say, more about defining this as a restored site. And that neatly ties in with both what I've been saying about the administrators and officials in the Noticia Dignitatum and what's happening in Gaul. But it also ties in with Princess, our burial evidence. You've been talking about cemeteries. We've got a fascinating burial in the eastern cemetery from Mansell street where someone of a male of importance has been buried with one of these cingulum, these belt and buckle sets which were part of the official insignia of being important, be it in the military or in the administration. And these crossbow brooches and belts with their chip carving are rare and important finds. Usually thought to be much later. But from this one I believe that a yet to be published carbon 14 dating on it, which actually I do refer to in my book. So it's not. It has been published but badly by me rather than by the people who are doing the real work. But that date places it again in that 360s sort of period. Bastions perhaps that 360s sort of period. So we've got rich and important people in the cemeteries, we've got bastions, we've got a notitia. We also have a known historical interlude. I always get into trouble for making things a bit too closely related to history. But the so called barbarian conspiracy.
- [46:24]
Unknown Host
I was about to ask you about the barbarian conspiracy. 363 about that time.
- [46:28]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Yep. 363. Now rather than say it's because we're afraid of barbarians, but if we do say that imperial interest in Britain is raised by the fact that they've had to send over a smallish but significant detachment of forces under Count Theodosius, who arrives immediately, starts settling some of the problems in the southeast and he overwinters in London before then going on and sorting things out in the rest of the province. And the documentation of his activities in Britain refer to the restoration of cities and defences. So not so much because the barbarians are at the gate anymore, but because Empire is making it clear to the people in London and elsewhere that it's back in business, that it's regained control and this is what a proper city should have is those bastions make it a better marked Better defended, better, more prestigious site. So the 360s carry that kind of going on. There may be a different historical cause for those bastions. I'm not going to pin all of my money to the barbarian conspiracy. I was taught by a first class archaeologist called Richard Rees. And Richard has written very important papers explaining how explaining everything as having been caused by the barbarian conspiracy is an archaeological fallacy and should be avoided.
- [47:42]
Unknown Host
Not this fantasized idea of Franks and Saxons and Frisbee in their boats coming up the Thames and at the same time you've got Scots and Picts outside the walls in a concerted attack trying to level London to the ground. Leave that to historians.
- [47:57]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Nasty things went on quite often in the Roman world and I think one should expect them to. Rome was not in the business just to be nice to people. Rome was in the business to tax and control, to govern, so it made enemies along the way. And both people outside the borders, but within the borders could be quite ready to rebel and revolt and whatever. And we underestimate. We go back to Boudicca earlier on, but those things don't stop. It's not as if Britain has been made. I mean it has high points. There are peaceful periods when Britain's doing quite well, but it's not the happy place that people sometimes think it might have been. So rebellion, yes, not necessarily that particular one. Relating to this, we've got some quite nice bits of architecture dominant. Let's explore that, let's explore that. Not those in detail, but just for instance, there's a very handsome mosaic found in Broad Street, I think, with Bacchus on his leopard in the middle. Polychrome. And that is stylistically part of what's called the Corinian Saltire school, which we think is a late 4th century school. There's some comparable mosaics probably by the same mosaicist which are coinedated after AD 350.
- [49:03]
Unknown Host
Perennium, did you say? And is that elsewhere in Britain?
- [49:06]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Yes, West Country. But London being London, it's perhaps got the palatial establishments of important people from other parts of Britain. This is the sort of person who might have brought in a mosaic mosaicist, I can say it with him. But one of our better, bigger, more handsome mosaics is late 4th century. We've got some of these townhouses have little towers added to them. I say little, quite chunky towers which were probably several stories, so the architect is looking different. So there's an elite architecture in the 4th century and that is again perhaps of this 350s, 360s and potentially into the 370s sort of period, getting really.
- [49:47]
Unknown Host
Close to the end of Roman Britain. And still it's really interesting with the archaeology and also showing that there is an official Roman investment in Britain, even at this time and places like London. So what happens over the next few centuries when you have figures like Magnus Maximus emerging?
- [50:02]
Dr. Dominic Perring
The key changes I would suggest occurring in the 380s. And this is not just going off to the historical sources and going, oh, we've got this big event with Magnus Maximus which everyone talks about and the Welsh talk about considerable detail. But not just that, we have this important historical event that people have written about and Bede talks about and so on. But actually the archaeology of London is pointing to the 380s as being significant. And it's significant because of what's going on at excavation sites and in particular the excavations at one poultry, that's the site next to Bank Station tube station. Also, though, in Southwark, during the works on the Thameslink and in these two areas we have the main roads that are going towards the town centre and those main roads both. The one in one poultry is now essentially that of Cheapside, but it becomes Oxford Street. It's our Great West Road. It's what ties London to places west, be it Silchester, be it Roxeter, be it St Albans, it's Watling street and all the rest. That's a very major route way. And people are digging holes into the road to extract gravel. Now they're extracting gravel for a purpose so that it's not as if nobody's around. But the dating for that is that sort of this coin dating up until the 360s, 370s, we don't have the later issues now. Although coins be getting short of supply in later Roman London, there are still coins around until the end of 4th century. They're not present. The later types of issues are not there, but are found in later deposits in those broader areas. So that gravel quarrying is going on probably in the 3 80s, going on that sort of period. At the same time, the houses next to the street on the north side of that street look to be abandoned. Now. Abandonment horizons are very difficult, but you end up with slightly different fines assemblages from occupation horizons. When you live in a house, you sweep the floor, you keep it clean, you build a new floor. Some fines get introduced with that, but they are the very eroded bits of rubbish that might get introduced in a new floor. Whereas the very latest surfaces in those houses underneath demolition debris Include far more in the terms of bits of jewelry, bits of coin, there's a shale tabletop, there's a variety of things that you would not expect to end up normally in archaeological assemblages. And Hilary Call and others have done some very good work at identifying these as being somewhat different assemblages. So we've got changes on the north side of the street, we've got the street itself having holes dug into it. And those holes aren't just you've taken a bit of gravel, all right, next week the street's back in use. Once you've created an enormous soft filled pothole in that street, you are really damaging the ability to move ox drawn cars and goods across it. And as I say, we've got similar sorts of evidence, not quite so well dated, but similar sorts of evidence coming out from the Thames Link work along Borough High street in Southwark, the road to London Bridge. I mean, they don't get more important in terms of route accesses than those two roads. On the south side of that same street, an early 4th century building had been given a large conduit. And that large brick lined conduit was part of managing some water that came down from springs in the Gresham street area near Guildhall. And those springs had been carried through in underground conduits all the way through from AD 48 to all the way down into the 4th century. That conduit ends up with rubbish in it and a decapitated skeleton of again, that broad dating into the 380s around there. Not precise, but certainly not 390s, four hundreds and certainly later than the 350s sort of thing. So focusing in, on things going on in and around the 380s, I think those are very important changes to London at that time.
- [53:58]
Unknown Host
Very mysterious as well. But yes, if you're not looking after the roads, then that does hint at something quite big.
- [54:04]
Dr. Dominic Perring
And this is where one says the changes we've seen going on in London in earlier periods have been this progressive diminution of the importance of London as a place for the shipping of goods. Port gone, forum gone, different dates, but progressive. Rhodes gone, you're gone. And at that stage we're also beginning to see local coin supply into 380s and 390s diminishing. That we're not seeing the import of fresh coinage into Britain creates enormous problems for the dating of what's going on. But the very fact of it is important that coinage is in not such ready supply in earlier Roman London, in periods when there had been shortage of small change. We find local manufacture, people start forging and they're called forgeries, but they're making very low value coinage. So it's more about just lubricating small scale exchanges. The cash economy needs it. So people, officials probably, but not from an official mint, generate sufficient coinage to keep things going. So if you have to pay your tax as you come into and out of town, you can payment can be made in cash. And that reduction in coin supply is not accompanied by an increase in alternative mechanisms enabling those cash transactions. So that again would suggest that something significant is changing. And this is all I say, all to do. I would argue that these are all features of this cyclical move towards an economy that doesn't need these things. But that is in turn is because of potentially a shrinking in the role of London for serving the rest of Britain. And then its horizons draw closer. And that's why a date in the 380s gets quite exciting. Because of course, Magnus Maximus was heavily criticised in later times for being responsible for having withdrawn the flower of Britain's youth, for having withdrawn the troops, because he, as usurpers have done before him, heads off to the continent to make his claim for power stick.
- [56:12]
Unknown Host
So does it almost feel that this is almost a point of no return after this? There's no revival after the 380s. I mean, how do we get from here to ultimately London disappearing, the decline when the Romans leave Britain?
- [56:24]
Dr. Dominic Perring
It's not as if everything is drawn to an immediate full stop. A diminution isn't an end. And we still see activity going on in properties in London to circa 400. Once we get into the 5th century, we are running out of material culture to play with. We do not have the coinage, we do not have the ceramics. And it is disputed amongst archaeologists how early in the first half of the fifth century it ceases to be a place of importance, a place at all. I find, yes, we've got a coin hoard at Billingsgate bathhouse. Yes, we've got some coins of Arcadius and Honorius from the Tower of London. So into the very first years of the fifth century, possibly. But as you get into the later fifth century, we do find things of that date, but not in the city of London. We find them in the areas around London. We've got Clip Siloqua in Southburgh, we've got a coin hoard in the old cemetery at Spitalfields to the north of the town. We've got some individual finds along the Fleet near Cripplegate. But within the city, virtually nothing. All that we can positively pin down in the city is a Fairly significantly later 450 plus brooch at Billingsgate. So I see little evidence that the houses in 5th century London are still being occupied. And I would go back to the events of the 380s and then the significant diminution of presence Roman presence in Britain, as the empire is too busy with matters elsewhere.
- [57:55]
Unknown Host
When Rome goes, London goes as well.
- [57:57]
Dr. Dominic Perring
It doesn't have to live it. And the process of that isn't just about London, it's about the places that London is sort of in. The orbit of Trier ceases to be a major capital city. From circa 395 mints are shifted to Arles. So Roman emperors are no longer seeing the northwest provinces as critical to their hold on power. They are no longer basing themselves in those locations. They're no longer winning prestige by campaigns in those areas. Stilicho may have sent over some support into Britain in the last decade, but everything then our full stop from an historical point of view is of course events of 406 to 409. And those events are historically argued over in detail, but are pretty clear in their broad outline. And their broad outline is we have another series of usurpations in the 406 OMERS. Marcus Gratian and Constantine III. That's right. And they are British based on. They are again in this business of saying we're not being looked after by Rome central. We've got problems on the Rhine. We know that there are barbarian incursions occurring elsewhere at this stage and they are dealing with a dissatisfied army. The failure of coin supply is attached to a disinterest of Rome with what's going on in its remote province. They're too busy and so people get upset. And the troops in Britain find it appropriate to back a local commander in a bid for power. And Constantine III is another of these leaders who ends up withdrawing troops from Britain in order to fight campaigns in Gaul. And it's a question mark how many troops are actually left in Britain. There's a difference of course, between those who are mobile, the troops that can actually go around and fight campaigns, and those who are manning forts and manning frontiers. And who are the Limitania who are permanently based have local families and they're probably not going anywhere. But the troops that you can actually put on a horse and actually wreak havoc with in contesting for power, they are being withdrawn from Britain.
- [60:03]
Unknown Host
And Dominic, just to finish this off, I will read almost like the last bit of your book where you kind of summarise it up, but I think it's a great way to end it. And you say London ceased to exist because Rome failed to maintain authority in Britain and the city had no other evident reason for being. Its disappearance is unlikely to have been a matter of widespread regret. The rewards of economic growth gained from the Roman investment and productivity were unevenly distributed, offering few material benefits to the wider population. The Roman administration was otherwise harsh and the demands of tax and rent unwelcome. Whilst the achievements of Roman London were many, they failed to carry far and advantaged only the privileged few.
- [60:41]
Dr. Dominic Perring
I stand by that very much. So as a psychological the failure of the city doesn't mean to say the landscape around fails in quite the same way. And perhaps somebody else can come along and talk to you all about the very exciting archaeology going on just by Trafalgar Square, at St Martin in the fields where we've got things that do move into the 5th century and suggest continuity. And of course that is near to where London Wych is later established. So the countryside is changing at a different pace to the city because London is different.
- [61:12]
Unknown Host
That is another story.
- [61:13]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Indeed.
- [61:13]
Unknown Host
Is it another chapter in the post Roman London story? Dominic, this has been absolutely fascinating. Last but certainly not least, your book which covers it.
- [61:22]
Dr. Dominic Perring
It is called, oh, London in the Roman World.
- [61:24]
Unknown Host
There you go. I could have read that myself. I know.
- [61:26]
Dr. Dominic Perring
Oxford University Press. I'm still quite pleased with it. I mean, there's things always that you go, oh, I could have added something there, but no, it says what I have to say.
- [61:33]
Unknown Host
It's a wonderful book which covers the whole Roman story of London. Very up to date book as well. Dominic, it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast.
- [61:42]
Dr. Dominic Perring
My pleasure.
- [61:46]
Unknown Host
So here's a little bit of extra information that I found out from Dominic after we finished recording. Now, in the interview, Dominic mentioned the archaeology of the 380s and how the roads were in bad shape by that point. Well, he then told me after we had to finish recording how that probably implies that the bridge bridges were also potentially crumbling at around this time. So you may well have had an ancient case of London bridges falling down in the last decades of the 4th century when Roman London was breathing its final breath. Just a cool little extra fact to finish this episode off. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Ancients. Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favor if you leave us a rating as well. Well, we'd really appreciate that. And don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of Historyhit's podcasts ad free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe@historyhit.com subscribe.
- [62:51]
Unknown Advertiser
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- [63:11]
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