Podcast Summary: The Ancients – How Greece Shaped Rome
Podcast: The Ancients
Host: Tristan Hughes
Guests: Mary Beard, Charlotte Higgins
Episode Date: September 4, 2025
Overview
This episode features two leading classicists, Mary Beard and Charlotte Higgins, in conversation with Tristan Hughes. The main theme is the multifaceted relationship between ancient Greece and Rome: their interactions, mutual influences, and the layers of mythology, literature, empire, and identity that intertwined their civilizations. The episode provides a nuanced analysis of how Greek culture shaped Rome, while also challenging simplistic binaries and assumptions about “the two classical civilizations.” The discussion delves into everything from Roman architecture and literature to moral anxieties over conquest, and explores how our modern understanding of “classics” is itself shaped by historical oversimplifications.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Foundations and Intertwined Origins
[04:07–05:24]
- The relationship between Greece and Rome is complex: Romans adored Greek culture but often held derogatory views about Greeks themselves.
- Both cultures did not exist in linear, separate timelines; rather, they developed alongside one another, sometimes vying for cultural prominence.
- The origins of Rome, as told in Virgil’s Aeneid, connect directly to Greek mythologies and expatriates (Aeneas, Evander), highlighting from the start the interconnectedness between Greek and Roman identity.
“You can't ever find a time when Rome and Greece weren't intertwined.” — Mary Beard [07:20]
2. Defining “Classical” and its Limits
[07:57–10:46]
- The concept of the “classical civilizations” is a modern construct and often excludes other influential ancient cultures (like the Etruscans and Phoenicians) that shaped both Greece and Rome.
- Greek and Latin literature continues to be read and debated across millennia, lending a sense of centrality, but the ancient Mediterranean was a multicultural, multilingual milieu.
- There is a danger in attributing all European culture as a direct, exclusive descendant of Greece and Rome.
“The world is already a mixed cultural world... It's from Britain to the Sahara, mate.” — Mary Beard [14:00]
3. Other Influences: Etruscans and Beyond
[11:39–14:46]
- The omission of non-Greek, non-Roman cultures in popular narratives is partly due to the dominance of literary traditions. Etruscans, for example, profoundly affected Rome but left little literature.
- Archaeology reveals the vibrant, overlapping cultures of pre-Roman Italy: Etruscans, Samnites, Lucanians, and others played critical roles.
“Archaeologists and historians have been working... on what the Etruscan debt to Rome was and what the Roman debt to Etruria was.” — Mary Beard [11:41]
4. Greek “Colonies” and Cultural Melting Pot
[15:02–18:44]
- Greek presence in southern Italy/Sicily (e.g., Paestum, Pompeii) predates Roman expansion, complicating the narrative of “Romanization.”
- These “colonies” were more akin to trading emporia and cultural blending, not outright takeovers.
“These are mixed cultural worlds.” — Mary Beard [15:25]
5. Why Did Rome Expand and Win?
[20:35–25:44]
- The reasons behind Rome’s rise are complex and unsolved; while the Romans were militaristic, so were all societies in the region. The key difference is that Rome simply kept winning.
- The ideology of imperial destiny (imperium sine fine) developed after Rome had already established its dominance, rather than serving as its blueprint.
“The real $64,000 question is why did Rome... become, in its terms, so successful?” — Mary Beard [20:44]
“I think that once they have been in a complicated way drawn into these conflicts... they retrospectively see a world dominating mission.” — Mary Beard [23:27]
6. Roman Anxieties about Wealth and Morality
[25:44–28:41]
- As Rome conquered Greece and acquired its art and wealth, Romans became deeply anxious about the effects on their “rugged” character.
- The year 146 BCE (sacking of Corinth and Carthage) marks both triumph and anxiety — with some Roman leaders expressing foreboding about the fate of Rome.
“Now they've become sort of billionaires.” — Charlotte Higgins [26:13]
“It's going to happen to us one day.” — Mary Beard paraphrasing Scipio Aemilianus at the sack of Carthage [26:43]
7. Greek Views of the Romans
[29:35–32:14]
- Greeks sometimes viewed the Romans as barbaric, but the reality under Roman rule was complex. Some Greeks resisted, others collaborated and integrated.
- Greek theatres were often adapted for Roman spectacles like gladiatorial games, indicating deep cultural blending.
“He’s giving you this extraordinary view of Greece as if the Romans weren’t there.” — Mary Beard on Pausanias [30:24]
8. The Role of Greek Mythology in Rome
[32:14–37:17]
- Roman fascination with Greek myth is evidenced by works like Ovid’s Metamorphoses, but the myths often serve different, more cosmopolitan or literary functions in Rome.
- Roman identity frequently defined itself both in relation to and distinction from Greek culture, sometimes playing up “ruggedness” to contrast with perceived Greek luxury.
“What Rome is doing is seeing what it is to use a mythical language outside place, as a cosmopolitan language.” — Mary Beard [34:02]
9. Rome’s Literary and Artistic Dialogue with Greece
[38:31–46:04]
- Virgil’s Aeneid is at once a homage to and a one-upping of Homer, blending the Iliad and Odyssey into a single national epic.
- Roman playwrights like Plautus and Terence closely adapted Greek comedies but filtered them through Roman experience (e.g., the treatment of slavery, social hierarchy).
- Roman architecture and sculpture drew on Greek precedents, but Rome “cosmopolitanized” the artistic vocabulary, making it international.
“He’s both offering a tribute to Homer... He’s also saying, up yours, Homer. Look, I can do better than this.” — Mary Beard on Virgil [41:29]
“One thing that Rome does is cosmopolitanize the Greek artistic heritage.” — Mary Beard [46:04]
10. Sorting Fact from Fiction: Gods, Language, and Influence
[49:22–54:50]
- The idea that Romans simply “borrowed” Greek gods is overly simplistic; both systems were highly local and syncretic.
- The Roman elite were near universally bilingual, fluently reading, writing, and speaking Greek as an essential feature of their cultural identity. This was less true in reverse for Greeks.
“Elite Romans live in a bilingual culture... The culture of the elite in the Roman world, from the second century at least, is essentially bilingual.” — Mary Beard [52:19]
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
- On received wisdom:
- “We always think of Greece as coming before Rome in some sort of nice, simple chronological development. But actually... there are two cultures going through history hand in hand, jockeying for position...” — Mary Beard [04:07]
- On empire and self-image:
- “Julius Caesar is a genocidal maniac. Right. But the structure of this is much more complicated.” — Mary Beard [25:03]
- “The Greeks were goodies... the Romans were bullies, didn’t think, and built bridges and conquered people. Well, that kind of binary division... really gets in the way.” — Mary Beard [27:30]
- On Greek/Roman mutual perceptions:
- “You can still see the places in quite a lot of traditional Greek theatres where they put up railings to help the crowd be safe from the wild beasts that they’re now displaying in the theater.” — Mary Beard [31:28]
- On art and architecture:
- “Roman temple architecture goes back... long before they had conquered or come into very close touch with the Greek world. … That sense of temple architecture is already part of the Roman repertoire.” — Mary Beard [46:04]
- On language:
- “Cicero and co are reading Greek... it’s much more of a cultural mix.” — Mary Beard [53:48]
Important Timestamps by Topic
- [04:07] — Greek and Roman mutual perception and intertwined beginnings
- [07:57] — The “classical civilizations” and ongoing cultural debates
- [11:39] — The influence and obscured role of Etruria and other cultures
- [15:02] — Trade and Greek/Italian cultural “melting pot”
- [20:35] — Why Rome expanded and “won”
- [25:44] — Roman anxieties about moral decline and Greek art
- [29:59] — Greek perspectives on Roman conquest
- [32:14] — The function of Greek myth in Roman culture
- [38:31] — Virgil’s Aeneid as homage and competition
- [46:04] — Greek and Roman architecture, sculpture, and their transformation
- [49:22] — Myths of gods and syncretism
- [52:19] — Greek language in the Roman elite
Tone and Style
True to the engaging, conversational, and sometimes irreverent spirit of the speakers, the episode delivers deep insights with memorable wit. Mary Beard offers pithy, often provocative analysis, while Charlotte Higgins provides rich literary and cultural context. Their banter and depth make ancient history lively, never dry.
Conclusion
This episode demonstrates that the story of Greece and Rome is one of entanglement, negotiation, rivalry, and absorption rather than simple succession or replacement. The classical world emerges here not as a linear inheritance, but a contested, blended, and ongoing conversation—one whose myths, literature, and anxieties still echo in our culture today.
“But that’s from Britain to the Sahara, mate.” — Mary Beard [14:00]
Listeners are encouraged to think beyond binaries and to recognize the vast, multicultural world of antiquity that Greek and Roman civilizations inhabited—and to check out Beard and Higgins’s new podcast, Instant Classics, for further explorations of these themes.