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- [00:00]
Tristan Hughes
Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes and if you would like the Ancients ad free, get early access and bonus episodes. Sign up to History Hit with the History Hit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary All About Petra and the Nabateans, and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.
- [00:25]
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- [00:58]
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- [01:28]
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- [02:25]
Tristan Hughes
It's the Ancients on History hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today we're exploring arguably the greatest of the mythological Greek adventure stories and a story that has survived in full the legend of Jason and the Argonauts. Their quest to retrieve the Golden Fleece, the fleece of a magical golden winged ram protected by a dragon and owned by a faraway kingdom east of the Black Sea. Jason and his crew of heroes Many adventures during this quest to retrieve the Golden Fleece have captivated people for millennia. This is a story that goes from Greece to the Bosphorus, that narrow strait of water where Istanbul is today, to modern day Georgia and the ancient kingdom of Colchis, before an extraordinary return journey that sees the Argonauts voyage up the River Danube, around the Adriatic Sea, across the Alps, navigating North Africa before finally returning to Greece. It is quite the epic story full of famous heroes from Greek mythology, A crossover par excellence. And it also features many well known mythical creatures ranging from Harpies to the dragon that guarded the Golden Fleece, to the witch Circe, the Sirens, the metal giant Talos, and more. Joining me to cover this epic ancient voyage from beginning to end is the best selling author, Caroline Lawrence. Caroline has been on the podcast before to cover the story of the Minotaur. She has recently written a book about Greek mythology which includes the legend of Jason and the Argonauts and how it is a classic example of the hero's journey, something we see time and time again in movies today. Let's get into it. Caroline, it is such a pleasure to have you back on the podcast. Welcome back.
- [04:17]
Caroline Lawrence
Oh, I am so honored to be back. Thank you so much for inviting me back. It was really good fun last time and I hope we'll have fun today.
- [04:24]
Tristan Hughes
Oh, I'm sure we will. And as I said, last time was the Minotaur. This time you've got just as juicy a topic of ancient Greek mythology. Jason and the Argonauts. I mean, Caroline, this feels like this ancient Greek version of the Avengers, this epic story of heroes all together going on a quest to a faraway land.
- [04:44]
Caroline Lawrence
Absolutely. And no other story from the Greek myth has, has been retold in as many different ways by as many different authors as Jason and the Argonauts. And it's one of my favorites. I think it started off being one of my favorites because of the 1963 film Jason and the Argonauts, which is so cheesy, but it's so wonderful and it's got amazing special effects by Ray Harryhausen, including gods that grow in puffs of smoke. And Jason being taken to Mount Olympus and put on a board like he's a little chess piece. And Talos, the bronze man who turns his head and chases them slowly around the island. And the skeletons that Jason has to fight. It's just so visually stunning. We watched it again last night and it's just so cheesy and so fun. But really he's a very wonderful hero. And his, I think one of the reasons his story's the most retold is it's kind of the primal hero's journey narrative. And the hero's journey is, I'm sure you know, is when a hero goes on a quest to get a thing it can, which Alfred Hitchcock calls the MacGuffin. It's just something the hero goes for to get them on the journey. And along the way they meet allies and opponents and they undergo tests and trials, and they finally return back home and they've learned what they need to learn. And the hero's journey, of course, is. Joseph Campbell coined that phrase and said that all world myths can be summed up in this cycle, the Hero's Journey. And then Hollywood screenwriters just ran with it. George Lucas was the first to take the idea of the Hero's Journey and make it into Star Wars. And then another guy, Christopher Vogler, wrote a book called the Writer's Journey. And then Blake Snyder, another Hollywood screenwriter, actually coined a genre, the Golden Fleece story, which is the Hero's Journey. So he actually calls it the Golden Fleece genre, where the hero goes on a quest to get a thing and comes home again.
- [06:55]
Tristan Hughes
Because it's not just Jason and the Argonauts, is it? There's so many stories of Greek mythology where it is centered around heroes going to do a quest. I might immediately think of Heracles or Hercules with his Labors. Why do you think that the Greeks loved these stories of heroes going on these epic adventures, going on the hero's Journey? What made them so popular, do you think?
- [07:19]
Caroline Lawrence
In ancient Greece, yes, you get the single hero, the lone hero, you know, who goes off on his own, maybe with gadgets like Perseus, you know, he's got lots of gadgets to help him. And Heracles has his weapons. But Jason is fun because he gathers allies, a bit like Neo in the Matrix, who actually goes on a ship called the Argo and has pals with him. That's a fun aspect, that there are all these different helpers. It's a team exercise. But also that the Greeks were so interested in their world. And in this, Jason sails to these amazing places that they might or might not have heard of. And actually, the journey always changes as people, the poets keep retelling it and get more knowledge of the geography, they get more and more accurate about where he's going. And so it's kind of a travelogue, really. You can travel and go to these amazing places and meet amazing characters. So I think those are fascinating. And there's also an etiological element that's, of course, explaining how things came to be. For example, how certain races of people founded different cities. And I'll tell you about, if we have time, I'll tell you about Euphemus later on, one of the Argonauts who has a really fascinating story.
- [08:40]
Tristan Hughes
Does the story then, of the Argonauts as I said, if it's. It's not just Jason, of course, he's the main protagonist and we'll get to more of his story in a moment. But. But it almost feels as it has all of these other heroes on it who all have their own stories attached to them. You know, in, in modern Hollywood today, in films, sometimes you get these great crossovers where you have several heroes who have their own movies, but they come together in a greatly anticipated movie where their stories collide and they work together. This feels like the equivalent in ancient Greece, doesn't it? This was the epic crossover story of ancient Greek heroes.
- [09:19]
Caroline Lawrence
Well, yeah, and in a way, all of Greek mythology is. This is this spider web of connections and interconnections. And what's really interesting about Jason is that he's the generation before the Iliad. So he's what I called the Caledonian Argonauts. They went on the Caledonian boar hunt and they went on the Argo. And they're often the fathers, like Peleus, the father of Achilles is on the Argo with Jason. So we haven't yet had the Trojan War. And in fact, Jason was raised by Chiron the centaur. And when he sets off on his quest, he waves bye bye to Chiron, who's holding little baby Achilles, because of course, Chiron teaches Achilles. Chiron the centaur is the great teacher and kind of mentor. So that's really fun. And I think that that's something to keep in mind that these are the generation before the Trojan War and then we're going to get all these subsequent fantastic stories.
- [10:21]
Tristan Hughes
Well, that leads me nicely into what I was going to ask next, Caroline, which would be, how old do we think the story of Jason and the Argonauts is? I mean, when do we have the earliest mention of it? And then when do we finally get the whole text in itself? Or do we get the whole text in the beginning? What do we know?
- [10:38]
Caroline Lawrence
I'm glad you asked. I think it's probably got an oral tradition, as the Iliad and the Odyssey did. So a lot of oral stuff was already there. Almost everybody mentions him. But let me just tell you who the six main. I found six main poets. We've got Pindar in the 6th century BC tells about the quest. Herodotus in the 5th century BC, Callimachus the 4th century BC, Apollonius Rhodius in the 3rd century, Diodorus Siculus in the 1st century BC. Then you go to the Roman, you've got Ovid and Valerius Flaccus, Ovid kind of straddles the two centuries. Valerius Flaccus was a Flavian author who wrote a version called the Argonautica as well in Latin. And finally we've got Apollodorus, who does a really succinct kind of summary in the. At the end of the first century. So they all told the quest, but the earliest mention we get is in the Iliad where Homer actually mentions Jason's son, which is really fun. He doesn't mention the quest. He just says many ships were there from Lemnos bearing wine sent forth by Jason's son Eunice, whom Hypsipyle bore to Jason, shepherd of the host. Now, that's a really interesting little epithet that's given to Jason, the shepherd of the host. And it's also used by Hesiod, who's about the same time as Homer, who mentions Jason marrying Medea and also calls him a shepherd of the people or shepherd of the host. And then you also get a mention in the Odyssey, one line that the Argo was the only ship that ever went through the clashing rocks safely. They've got the little snippets that show that in that in the 8th century they knew about him. But there are no complete. The first complete story of the quest is from Pindar, one of his Pythianodes, the fourth Pythianode, often considered his best. And that's in. Actually, we know the exact date of that it's 462 BCE is the date of the 4th Pythian Ed that first tells the story of Jason. And it's got some of the basic elements in it, but not all.
- [12:59]
Tristan Hughes
But I think that also means we need to raise an important point right now. Is it Caroline? And this seems to be something that we hear again and again that with Greek mythology, although we may love it and we will cover the main beats, is it important to highlight that in these different versions that that stretch from, you know, classical Greece and Pinda to the Roman period, that they all have their own elements into it. You can almost see the story evolving over time and certain characters being there in one version, not there in another version kind of thing?
- [13:30]
Caroline Lawrence
Yeah, it does. It does. What it does is it stays pretty much the same. You've got the tropes, but they will emphasize what they want to emphasize for their political. One thing I realized is that poets were political in the past, that the fourth Pythian Ode was actually written probably commissioned by a man who wanted to be reinstated to in favor with a certain king so he got Pindar to write this ode to the king who'd won a chariot race with hints of, you know, I'm your pal, reinstate me. And of course we know that Virgil wrote the Aeneid to, to promote Octavian who became Augustus. And so there's a lot of political stuff in these, in the retellings and then you get different flavors according to their, their tastes. For example, Apollonius Rhodius, who's the Hellenistic writer in the so called Alexandrian style, which apparently means fancy schmancy, showing off your knowledge.
- [14:32]
Tristan Hughes
3Rd or 2nd century B.C. isn't it after Alexander the Great?
- [14:35]
Caroline Lawrence
Yes. 3rd century B.C. yeah, 2nd century B.C. yeah, he's writing around 250 BC, so he's apparently he writes the best Medea, apart from Euripides of course. He writes a really good Medea, but his Jason is insipid. Whereas Valerius Flaccus is said to write a really good Jason, but Medea's kind of skimmed over. So they show their interest but they, they play with the same basic tropes. And that's what I think all of those who retell the myth today do we take these basic tropes, building blocks of each myth and we emphasize the one that we want to promote our own views with.
- [15:14]
Tristan Hughes
Well, let's start going through these different tropes now, Caroline. And it feels right that we start at the beginning, doesn't it? So how does the story of Jason and the Argonauts, how does it begin? I mean, how are we introduced to this character that is Jason?
- [15:31]
Caroline Lawrence
Yeah, well, he's great. He's often introduced, grown up and then we have a little flashback to him. And in, I think probably the best, one of the most famous accounts is Apollonius of Rhodes, the one who wrote around 250 BC, his Argonautica. He starts off with Jason, arrives with one sandal, essentially. So let me just tell you basically first what the kind of essence of Jason is, what his basic story was. All the traditions agree that Jason is a hero who goes with a bunch of other heroes called the Argonauts to get a fleece from a faraway country called Colchis, the country of Aeetes, father of Medea. He's got to overcome lots of tasks and he's got to get the fleece from the dragon and bring it back to claim his kingdom. So that's the kind of basic account and most of the accounts give Jason 50 heroes on his journey. One or two give him a hundred. But he sails in A pentaconter, a ship with. With 50 oars. So it makes sense that you've got 50 heroes, one for each ore. And his name is interesting. It means healer or atoner. And it's actually linked to. It's actually linked to the word, the name Jesus in some accounts, or Joshua. So that's interesting. And he's the son of Eson, grandson of Cretheus, and he's the heir to the throne of Iolcus, which is kind of in Greece, and Thessaly. And if you imagine Athens and Olympia up north, halfway between, kind of on the coast there, that's Thessaly and it's now a place called Volus. So he's going to set out from Colchis, go to the end of the world, which is essentially. He's going to go to Colchis, which is the Black Sea. That's that big body of water above Turkey on the right hand side. I'm not good with east and west, so the very right hand side, go there through all sorts of places and then come back again. So that's his most basic story. And we start off with him arriving with one sandal and the ruler of Iolcus, who's, I think his uncle Pelias, which should be his kingdom, has been warned about the one sandaled man. Now some of the accounts are really fun. They have Jason just losing the sandal as he crosses a river. One account has Jason saving an old woman in a river who's actually Hera in disguise. And he loses his sandal that way. So that shows he's kind and good and noble and Hera likes him and she's going to be his helper, unusually, because Hera is usually the enemy of most heroes.
- [18:20]
Tristan Hughes
Yes, that's unusual, isn't it?
- [18:22]
Caroline Lawrence
Very unusual. And in the great film she. Actually there's a little twist in the film of Jason and the Argonauts where she appears on the riverbank and makes Polias, the evil king, fall in the water. And Jason rescues him. And when they come out, looks down and sees he only has one sandal. So that's. That's a really good. So that's the first trope is the prophecy about the man will come. And in Pindar, this is so great. Pindar describes. Has a wonderful description of Jason arriving in Iolcus wearing two different types of clothing, get this, a tight fitting magnesium tunic that clung to his superb limbs and. And a leopard skin to protect him from shivering showers. And his long hair flows down his back now that shows he's really young. He hasn't cut his hair yet. And in almost all the accounts, we emphasize that Jason's quite young. And many of them say he just has his first beard. So he's like 20 years old. He's quite young and good looking. So this is very impressive. So that's our first trope.
- [19:31]
Tristan Hughes
Before we go on to the next trope, Caroline, I'd like to ask a bit more about that region. So Thessaly. So as you say, imagine Athens and Delphi a bit further south. Thermopylae is like the southern border of Thessaly, isn't it? And above Thessaly you have Macedonia, Thessaloniki in modern day Greece. And I believe also Thessaly you do have, much later you have a king called Jason, Jason of Pherae. So it almost seems like the name Jason really does stick in that area of the world with the old costs as well. I mean, I must admit that's not a name of a place that I would instantly recognize, but I believe it's. It's big in Bronze Age times. So if you also mentioned that the whole setting is a generation before the Trojan War, should we also be imagining that this young Jason, the story of the sands in the river and all of that, this is taking place more than 3,000 years ago in the Bronze Age? That is the idea, is it? That's the setting, yes.
- [20:30]
Caroline Lawrence
I think we can firmly place it in the Bronze Age, especially the oral traditions and the kind of establishment of who are these people in different areas of ancient Greece. By the way, there's a great resource on the Internet, which is the World History Encyclopedia, and there's a map of the hero Jason and his quest with the Argonauts. And it's absolutely superb because it shows you. It follows Apollonius's version and it shows you his very circuitous root all around the ancient world and what happens in each place. And for me, I'm not good with geography, so it's good for me to get a vision of where Iolcus is. And it's kind of like again, the middle right coast of Greece and you can just sail across the Troy. And in fact one of their places, they sail by Troy in the Argo, but they don't stop there, but it's a kind of little hint. Oh, there's Trai on the starboard bow.
- [21:30]
Tristan Hughes
So you've mentioned that first trope straight away. Caroline, does the second one follow straight after in the story? Is that the logical place to go next?
- [21:38]
Caroline Lawrence
Yeah, second one Follows as as ever, the king says, and they do this in various ways. You can have the kingdom if you do this task. If you complete this task. Go get the Golden Fleece. Now. We don't have time to go into what the Golden Fleece was and everything. I think you've got another brilliant history hit telling the story of Phrixus and the golden ram that flies and stuff, but he's got to go to the end of the world to get the thing, the Golden Fleece. So Jason says, yes, I will go to the end of the world and I'll get lots of heroes. So that's this. The next trope kind of is the gathering of heroes, and he's got to gather all the heroes. And Apollonius starts off with a great long list of the heroes. And the movie has a really fun version where they have games to compete to see who will come, who gets to go on the Argo. And Hercules arrives and says, Hercules is here. What do I do? When do I compete? And they go, haha. You don't have to compete, Hercules. You're just naturally in. And then Hylas, this young boy, comes and he says, oh, I'm too late to compete, but what if I can beat Hercules or Heracles at one task? And Heracles says, the discus hit that rock out to sea. And of course, Heracles throws the discus with his immense strength, and it hits the rock way out at sea. And then Hylas, super clever. This always impressed me so much. He uses the discus like skipping stones on a pond. So he uses his brain and he hits the rock by skipping the discus. It skips on the water and hits the rock. And Heracles says, ha ha, Hylas, you can come along. So that's one version. In another version, Hylas is Heracles's lover or boyfriend. And he will get only they get only so far. And that's another trope that's coming up further. Another fun trope is they get a bit. They make the Argo, then they build the ship, and they get a guy called Argo to build it, Argus to build the ship, name it after him. And they get a bit of magic wood from the oaks of Dodona, Zeus's sanctuary. And this bit of wood can speak. So they put the little speaking bit of wood into the Argo so it can kind of. It's got a sat nav for them. It can help guide them along the way. And of course, in the great film, they do a figurehead of Ihera at the back of the ship, and she opens her eyes and tells. Gives Jason advice. So that's the third trope you could say is wood from the oak of Dodona as part of the Argo.
- [24:10]
Tristan Hughes
And just to jump in there as well, Caroline. That's an interesting point to make, isn't it? Because when someone says oracles of ancient Greece, people will go straight away, Delphi, you know, the oracle of Apollo, or they might think of Olympia as well, but Dodona in northwest Greece, which was the ancient region of Epirus, or Epirus, as you said, oracle to Zeus, a king of the gods, and a very archaic oracle too. So even though the name of Dodona is not as big as Delphi today, the fact that you've got wood from the sacred oracle to Zeus in the Argo, I mean, that is a big deal. Don't. Just because it's not Delphi, don't think that it's less important. Arguably, it's more important in. In the framing of the story.
- [24:54]
Caroline Lawrence
Absolutely. And I love the idea that wood can speak. That's. That's so great, isn't it? And you, again, you've got the. The idea of the approval of the gods. The presence of the gods are here, so that's super fun. Then they set off, and the first place they stop is the island of Lemnos. I don't know if you've ever been to Lemnos. I've not been to Lemnos, but it's roughly halfway between the eastern seaboard of Greece and Troy. And they arrive there and there are all these women and no men on the island because unbeknownst to them, the women, for a various reason, have killed off all their. All the men on the island. They'd murdered their husbands and killed off all the men. It's all to do with the curse and not worshiping some goddess and getting punished and a bad smell. So the Argonauts arrive there first stop, and all these women are there. This is great stuff. So they hang around there having fun for a while. And the only woman who didn't kill her father is Hypsipilly, who is the kind of queen of Lemnos. And she has a little dalliance with Jason and he's going to have two kids by her. Okay, so this is really interesting because of course, Medea will kill his children. Spoiler alert. Later on. But these two children, one of them is the one who goes to fight at Troy. So that's where that son comes from. So they have fun on Lemnos. And finally Heracles says, guys, come on, we got a quest, let's go. So they all go.
- [26:43]
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- [27:13]
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- [27:43]
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- [28:26]
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- [29:10]
Tristan Hughes
Before we get on to the next part, would you mind explaining a little bit more about who these other heroes are? We won't go into their big backstories, but of course we got the name Heracles there already. And we've got Jason, we've got their ship, the Argo. And if we go with the tradition, that is just 50 of them on this ship. Who are some of the other very notable figures that we should think of being part of this. This Crew of heroes assembled together, part of this great crossover.
- [29:39]
Caroline Lawrence
Yeah, great, great, great question. Well, you've got Castor and Polydeuces, also known as Castor and Pollux, who are slightly problematic because they're supposed to be the brothers of Helen of Troy. But she's much. She's the next generation, isn't she? If they're the generation before Troy, we'll just skim over that. So Castor and Polyduces, who are good at boxing and they're good at. They're good at horse riding. And each of these heroes has a fun kind of talent. And one of them, there are two sons of Boreas who are called Zetes and Paula. And they can fly. That's pretty good. Special power wings. According to Pindar, they have purple wings. Now, they'll come into play when Jason meets the Harpies, when they chase the Harpies away, and Apollonius totally blows it. He could have a great scene where they're flying after the Harpies and stuff, but he just has them kind of ambiguously chasing the Harpies. So those guys can fly. Then there's another guy I mentioned called Euphemus, and he's the son of Poseidon. He can walk on the water. Wow, is that not cool? I mean, I can totally see a film of these guys. You know, two guys can fly with purple wings.
- [30:58]
Tristan Hughes
One.
- [30:58]
Caroline Lawrence
One guy can walk on the water. And then you've got Orpheus, of course, who plays music so beautifully that when they come to the island of the Sirens, instead of having to plug up their ears with wax like Odysseus, he can kind of play his music and overwhelm their siren song. And only one guy jumps in the water to get to them. So there's some really cool other heroes, I think. So I've said Castor and Pollux, Orpheus, Heracles, Zetes and Callaos. And of course, Euphemus, who can walk on water. And then Atalanta, according to some versions, but not in Apollonius's version.
- [31:36]
Tristan Hughes
She's the famous huntress. Is it? Or the one with the. The other golden apple story. Is it with. With the race or She's a famous athlete and huntress. Is that the idea?
- [31:44]
Caroline Lawrence
Exactly. And I think I mentioned that I. I call this generation the Caledonian Argonauts. So they also. A lot of them go on the Caledonian boar hunt. And she's one who went on the Caledonian boar hunt. And she could run super fast. And she. Her father didn't want her to marry, so he said. Or she didn't want to marry. So she said, you can only marry me if you can beat me in a race. And the guy who beat her threw a golden apple, three golden apples to distract her, and managed to win the race that way. So this is before she has run the race. She's appears on a lot of Greek vases, wrestling Peleus, the father of Achilles. That's apparently some fun story that we've kind of lost, but it's on a lot of pots, Greek pots, so that's lots of fun. I talk about that in my. My book about the Greek gods and goddesses Pantheon. She said getting in a little plug for her book.
- [32:37]
Tristan Hughes
Right, well, let's continue with the story then. So these women on the Isle of Lemnos, where Jason has a bit of fun and the others have a bit of fun for a time. Then Heracles is like, no, no, no, no, no. You need to remember what we're doing. We're going back on this quest. How does the story go on from here?
- [32:54]
Caroline Lawrence
This is a throwaway line in Apollonius. They stop on Samothrace and they're initiated into the mysteries. Then they get to the famous clashing rocks because they're coming up to the Hellespont, which is a narrow channel of water that goes from the Aegean, I believe, into the Propontis and then the Black Sea. And those are the famous clashing rocks which Pindar describes as being alive, which is really good. And they're often confused with the rocks, the other rocks, with Scylla and Charybdis down by Sicily, that these are clashing rocks. And again, that's done really, in the film. It's huge fun. A giant Triton comes up and holds the rocks apart and their other methods. They. In Apollonius, they let a dove through and the dove goes through and the rocks clash and just get its tail feathers. And then as they're opening again, they quickly row and get through that way and again there they get their tail feathers kind of clipped off the very back of the ship. What's that called? The stern? Yeah, they get that clipped off. So that's the next fun bit, is the clashing rocks. But then we go to Propontis, which is a little mini sea, before they get to the Blacks, and a very sad thing happens here. They land on another island and people. Their prince is called Cyzicus, and he's young again with. With downy hair and a beautiful young wife. And they're very friendly and they welcome the Argonauts and they Feast them. And they even let them spend the night with. With the unmarried women, you know, again, being very, very generous here. Argonauts are great and everybody's happy in their Bye bye. So the Argonauts sail off. That night, there's a terrible storm which. Which makes them run aground. And it's night, and when they get onto the beach, they, the people there start to attack them and they fight back and they kill the people who are attacking them. And when dawn comes, they've killed their hosts from the day before. So young Cyzicus has been murdered and his wife is so destitute that she hangs herself. And they try to do funeral games in apology, but it's no good. They've killed their hosts from the day before. So they're kind of blundering around. You're getting a sense that they're blundering around.
- [35:17]
Tristan Hughes
And it's an interesting part of the world that, isn't it? I mean, just kind of retrace our footsteps in the geography. So we've gone from Lemnos with the women. It's mentioned Samothrace there, so modern Samothraki, the Hellespont, which is the monde, Dardanelles, and then Propontis, which is modern day the Sea of Marmara. So just kind of south of Istanbul before, as you say, you get to the Black Sea and Cyzicus, that becomes the name of a prominent Greek city state on that Anatolian side of the Sea of Marmara, isn't it? So I'm guessing, is that the origin myth of that city?
- [35:51]
Caroline Lawrence
Absolutely. I'm impressed, so impressed by your knowledge of geography. And this is what I'm saying. You've got the exotica of these traveling to these amazing places, but also the etiology. Oh, that's where it gets its name. That guy died there. So he's given his name to that place and now he'll always be memorialized with that name. So, yeah, and we're getting more and more exotic and more and more strange things happen. And then they come to a really fun island or the place where Phinehas the blind prophet lives. And of course, this is the story of the Harpies. And how Phineas, again, he snubbed some God. I think it was Zeus, and Zeus punishes him by making him blind and by giving him prophetic powers. So Phineas knows that Jason's going to come save him from the Harpies, which are these horrible half women, half birds, who in some accounts have rooster heads and female bodies and claws. And they defecate and drip saliva everywhere. And they, they be foul all the food so that you can't even stand the smell. And when poor Phineas sits down to eat, they come and they be foul his food and take it away. Now in the film they do an amazing thing. And I'm sorry I keep harking on about the film, but it's so brilliant. They actually filmed it in Paestum, south of Pompeii, where there's some ancient Greek temples, historic temples to Hira. And they actually have the actors climbing on one of these temples. They wouldn't be able to do it today. And they put a big net over it. And it's not cgi, it's a real net. The Harpies are CGI or not cgi, they're claymation. And they actually catch the Harpies with this net. In Apollonius, this is where Zetes and Callias, the flying sons of Boreas, come in and they chase the Harpies and they fly after them with their swords all the way going west, west, west, west, west to some islands called the Strophates, which are little islands off the left hand side of Greece, which is the west and where Aeneas will go and that's where he's going to meet the Harpies later on. So they get to stop there. And Strophates actually means turning the turning because that's where Detes and Callias turn around and fly back with the Argonauts. So they've chased away the Harpies and they're different versions of the Harpies and what they're like and who Phineas was and everything. That's huge fun.
- [38:27]
Tristan Hughes
So that's the next big one. So so far we've had the killer women on the Isle of Lemnos, Cyzicus in the Sea of Marmara, and before that the Clashing Rocks, the next stage from there. Is there much more before they reach Colchis, or is it quite a straight.
- [38:43]
Caroline Lawrence
Road Once they get there, let's jump to Colchis. And of course they arrive at Colchis, which is the end of the world. And there are various ways where they meet Medea, but in most of them, I'm afraid, the gods have a part to play and make her fall in love with him so that she will help him. Now at Colchis, the king of Colchis is Aeetes, the king with too many E's in his name. A, E, E, T, E S, too many E's. And he's the father of a couple of daughters And a son named Absyrtus. And Medea's the youngest and she's a priestess of Hekate. She's a sorceress, a witch. She's very young in Apollonius and quite vulnerable and very sympathetic. And she falls in love with Jason. So she's very torn about whether she should be loyal to support him or her father. And Ovid does this a lot too, because Ovid in his Metamorphoses really gets into Medea's head. And I think we were talking before that she. As soon as Medea appears, all the focus goes on her and away from poor Jason. She's often so she's so much more fascinating than Jason, who's quite bland at times. She falls in love with Jason because of his beauty. And Aeetes says, okay, you can have the Golden Fleece, but you must do this task. You must harness my bronze two bronze bulls which breathe fire and sow some dragon's teeth. And if you can do that, I'll let you have the fleece. And of course it's an impossible task, except that Medea gives him some special anointing oil to put on himself and his weapons to protect him from the flames. And he's able to harness the fire breathing bowls. And so the teeth, which go back to Cadmus, way back in Cadmus, whole other story, the movie does a very clever thing. It has him kill the dragon, which doesn't happen in Apollonius, and then use those dragon's teeth to. To sew them. And of course that's when these wonderful skeleton warriors pop up out of the ground. But in most versions, most of the ancient versions, he has to do the plowing of the teeth first. And then Aeetes says he'll give him the fleece, but Aetes does not give him the fleece, so he's got to get it by another method. Now, you'd expect him to be a brave soldier, or rather not soldier, but warrior, and use his sword to kill the dragon and everything. The snake Drakhan means the same thing and it's described as being as big as the Argo. So this is not your ordinary snake or dragon. It's a snake as big as the Argo ship. What he does is Medea just uses a charm to put it to sleep, which is a little bit anticlimactic. And again in the film they make it a hydra and he stabs the hydra and kills it. That way he gets the fleece and. And now he's going to go home. So that happened Pretty quickly, actually, yes. A lot of it is the traveling there and then they get there and it's kind of slightly anticlimactic, except a lot of it's in Medea's head. Her torturous inner debate about what she should do. And that's of course what makes it so fascinating and hers so fascinating.
- [42:16]
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- [42:45]
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- [43:29]
Tristan Hughes
You've highlighted the point there. Then, Caroline, is it the fact that actually one of the most, if not the fascinating part of the whole Jason and the Argonaut story is their journey there and their journey back. I mean, getting to the kingdom of Colchis and what he does there, yes, it's pivotal to the story and the retrieving of the Golden Fleece. But as you say, it's not slaying the monster, it's Medea helping him, putting in, putting it to sleep. And then I guess it's their returning from what is present day Georgia. It's that area of the world, isn't it? The kingdom of Colchis. So they've got a long way to get back after that.
- [44:01]
Caroline Lawrence
They've got a long way to get back. And as you're exactly right, it's not the thing they get. It's not the fleece, the MacGuffin, the magic potion, you know, the sword, whatever, the princess. It's the journey that's important and what the hero learns and who he meets and who he fights and who he falls in love with and who he loses and who he mourns that's important. And again, he'll come back to the. He comes back to the same place at the end. And again, if you look at that wonderful map of his journey, he's going all over the place, including many across land. And so they're now they're warned by an oracle. Don't go back the way you came. So they decide to go by a different route. So they sail up the Danube, they go up the Danube, okay, all the way across whatever those are called, the Balkans or whatever, to the sea on the right of Italy, which is, I believe, called the Adriatic.
- [44:57]
Tristan Hughes
The Adriatic? Yep.
- [44:58]
Caroline Lawrence
Yeah, you've got your boot of Italy. They go to that bit there, the Adriatic, that's where they pop out. And their pursuers, Aeetes, takes, according to Apollonius, Aetes takes half the Colchian fleet and follows. Goes back the way Jason came. But absurdists, the younger brother, takes half the fleet and follows Jason across the Danube. And when they get to the Adriatic Sea, this is where, in Apollonius's version, Medea lures Absyrtus to a talk and Jason kills him. And then when he's dead, they go and kill everybody on his ship. And the rest of the fleet are so discouraged that they decide to not go home and just settle there. And they're called. That place is called the Absurdian Islands or something like that. Again, another etiological how did these people from the Black Sea get to this part of near Italy? In Apollodorus Virgin, he's also writing in Greek that at the end of the first century A.D. he's the one who tells how Medea chops up her brother, takes him with him on the ship, chops him up in bits and tosses him in the sea. So her father, who's pursuing them, stops to pick up the bits.
- [46:08]
Tristan Hughes
So.
- [46:08]
Caroline Lawrence
So there are different variations on how Absurdus is used as a kind of terrible distraction.
- [46:17]
Tristan Hughes
So is this the beginning of the story? Almost. And now that Medea's on board, I'm guessing it's part of the kind of creation of the story, this idea that on the return journey it's no longer Jason as this wonderful figure, this hero to admire. This is someone that starts getting a bit more. And I guess it's thanks to Medea and how they portray it a bit more repulsive in the actions that they do. And this idea, I'm guessing that they're going to get their comeuppance soon because of the, well, the horrific actions that they've taken as, say, first of all, the killing of a sibling, and second of all, the kind of, in some cases, the splitting up of the body. So the burial rites were always. So will be more tricky and it's an abuse of the dead. Is this all coming to a head at the moment?
- [47:05]
Caroline Lawrence
Absolutely right. They start off with the most noble of motives and they deteriorate as they go along the way. And Jason again, is often shown to be indecisive in Apollonius's version. And we also, as you say, get this, focus on some of the other characters, like Medea, or on some of the other heroes who again, have an etiological function to perform. But this is a terrible thing they've done. It's such a terrible thing. Killing ordinary people is bad, but killing your own flesh and blood is abhorrent to the gods. And they need purification. So they're now told that they need to go to see Circe on her island and that she will cleanse them from purification. So this is quite surprising. Circe's the witch, of course, who had Odysseus on her island for quite a while and did lots of fun things with him, but she is now the one who can purify them. So they've now got to go to the home of Circe somewhere off the western coast of Italy. So that's another one of the tropes, the Cleansing of Absyrtus, murder by Jason and Medea. They then sail up the river Eridamas, which is the Po, and then they go over the Alps somehow, don't ask me how, down down the Rhone, the Rhone river, and then down by the Tyrrhenian Sea. That's where they meet Circe, according to Apollonius. Then they're going down to the home of the Sirens, which is down on the shin of Italy, again in the Tyrrhenian Sea. Then they go through Scylla and Charybdis and they go up to Drepane. I'm looking at the map here, because there's no other way to understand it. Drepana is again near Albania, or maybe Corfu. Then they sail down to Syrtes, and that's how they get to North Africa. They get blown off course. And that's where Jason meets three nymphs, the guardians of Libya, and he's instructed to carry the Arago across the desert. And then they go to Lake Triton, which is where they meet Triton, the son of Poseidon, who reveals a secret passage back to the sea. We're almost done here. You'll be glad to hear the end is in sight. Now we get one of the best bits where they go to Crete and they meet Talos, the bronze man, and he is amazing. And in the film Jason and the Argonauts, he appears at the very beginning. And there's this amazing scene of. I don't know if you've ever Seen it, But he's like this giant bronze crouching statue on a treasure house. And when Heracles steals a golden pin, his head turns with a horrible metallic creaking, and he gets down off his plinth and follows them. Like, if you can imagine the Colossus of Rhodes, a great gigantic bronze statue clomping after tiny ant like men. It's absolutely brilliant, chilling, fantastic. And in the film, Jason conquers him by unplugging a plug in his heel and letting out the ichhorn, the magic juice or blood. But in Apollonius, he's vanquished by Medea, who, from a distance from the ship, gives him the evil eye, using magical incantations and calling down spirits of death. And she uses her eye beams and curses him. And he then scratches his vulnerable ankle vein on a rock and the ichor flows out. He crashes to the ground like a great pine coming down at night on the top of a mountain. So he's a wonderful character, Teilas, who's. There are different origins for him. One is that Hephaestus made him. And I like the origin that he's made to guard the island of Crete, which he can run around three times each day. And he even appears on coins of Crete, this giant bronze man. So he's huge fun. We only have one more thing to happen before they get home, and that's this really spooky kind of incident where after they leave Crete, this terrible darkness comes down upon them and they can't see where they are. And it's. It's the worst darkness. It's like, worse than death. And Jason and his men pray to Apollo, who lights the night with his flashing arrows, until dawn comes and they find themselves on this little island. And they're nearly home. And finally they get home to mainland Greece.
- [51:52]
Tristan Hughes
Born. What adventure that is.
- [51:53]
Caroline Lawrence
Guess how long that whole journey takes.
- [51:56]
Tristan Hughes
How long?
- [51:56]
Caroline Lawrence
According to Apollodorus, our latest source, four months. Pretty amazing. I think it'd be fun to do that, to actually follow in the steps of Jason. And it would probably take you about four months to do that. Stopping along all those wonderful places once.
- [52:11]
Tristan Hughes
Again, very quickly, because I've now got the map in front of me, trying to get my head around it. He starts in the Yorkus, goes through the Hellespont, then there's the Clashing Rocks near Byzantium, modern day Istanbul, going along the southern shoreline of the Black Sea, ending up at Colchis, modern day Georgia gets the Golden Fleece, then around the north part of the Black Sea, past Crimea, up the River Danube, somehow making it to the Adriatic Sea. I don't think you can do that today, can you? Ending up in the Adriatic Sea, then turning around after the killing of Medea's brother, the son of the king, Aeetes, the man with too many A's in his name. No, too many E's in his name.
- [52:52]
Caroline Lawrence
Aies in his name.
- [52:53]
Tristan Hughes
Goes up the river Po in northern Italy, does a Hannibal by crossing the Alps, down the river Rhone in southern France, past Corsica, past Liguria, places like Genoa today, down the western coast of Italy, the Tyrrhenian Sea, where you meet Cersei and the Sirens as well. Then through that strait, the Strait of Messenia, between Sicily and the toe of Italy, Corfu. Then ending up in North Africa, in Libya, Tunisia, Morocco, that way. Finally, Crete with Talos that you've mentioned, Caroline, and that last kind of spooky venture before returning to mainland Greece. Have I been able to summarize the geography loosely there of the whole Argonaut story?
- [53:38]
Caroline Lawrence
You've done it brilliantly. It's essentially a Mediterranean tour, isn't it?
- [53:43]
Tristan Hughes
It is. It is, isn't it? Central Mediterranean and Black Sea tour and.
- [53:48]
Caroline Lawrence
Black Sea, yeah, absolutely.
- [53:49]
Tristan Hughes
I wish we could talk more and more about what happens to Jason after this, because this is an important part of the story, isn't it? But this is where Medea really comes to the fore. And we could do a whole another episode on Medea's story. But can you wrap up what happens at the end when he finally returns to Iolcus and the evil king? Does Jason? Is there a reward because he's done with this journey? Is there a happy ending for him?
- [54:14]
Caroline Lawrence
Not really. I think he's got to go to Corinth for some reason, and he can't even have his kingdom. And of course, then that's where he meets another woman and he abandons Medea or wants to marry this other woman. And I think that's a whole other story that many people know so much better than I do. But shall I just tell you about his death?
- [54:36]
Tristan Hughes
Go on, then, yes. So what is the story of his death? Is it quite gruesome?
- [54:40]
Caroline Lawrence
No, it's quite sad. He's an old man and he goes to remember his glory days, and he sits under the Argo in the shade of the Argo and a bit falls off and bonks him on the head and he dies. That's kind of how I want to go. Just sitting under and bonked on the head and I'm gone.
- [54:58]
Tristan Hughes
But it's also the ship, isn't it? The ship is right at the center. The ship is the thing that has endured all of these adventures. The end of the day with Jason, you know, Medea has killed his children as well, hasn't she? And that's another story. And he's a broken old man, as you say. It almost feels quite fitting that he dies beneath the ship that had served him so well for his most famous adventure.
- [55:22]
Caroline Lawrence
Yeah, he's broken, definitely after what happened with Medea and his own weakness. And that's a fascinating thing about the Greek heroes, is they're often anti heroes. They're like us. And that's, I think, one of the reasons that makes them so enduringly fascinating and popular.
- [55:37]
Tristan Hughes
And the myth of Jason and the Argonauts, his story and those of the people around him, is it one that has never gone away? Is it one that has caught the attention of artists, of poets, of writers, and of course, of film directors down to the present day?
- [55:53]
Caroline Lawrence
I think it has, and I think many of these Greek myths have. But as we were saying at the beginning, this is the quintessential hero's journey with lots of adventures along the way and lots of lessons to be learned.
- [56:06]
Tristan Hughes
Caroline, this has been fantastic. Last, but certainly not least, your book, which includes the story of Jason and the Argonauts. It is called.
- [56:14]
Caroline Lawrence
It's called A Companion to the Greek and Roman Gods and Goddesses. And it's got lots of little fun facts.
- [56:20]
Tristan Hughes
Well, there we go. Caroline just goes to me to say thank you so, so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.
- [56:25]
Caroline Lawrence
Thank you. It's been really fun.
- [56:30]
Tristan Hughes
Well, there you go. There was Caroline Lawrence talking through the many amazing adventures of Jason and the Argonauts. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you would like more of Caroline, then do check out our earlier interview we did with her last year, all about the Minotaur. That was also a really fun chat. And don't you worry, we'll cover the end of Jason's story in another episode in the future, exploring figures like Medea in the detail that a character like her definitely deserves. But that is for another episode. In the meantime, thank you for listening to this episode of the Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcast ad free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe@historyhit.com subscribe. Lastly, if you want more ancient history videos and clips. Then be sure to follow me on Instagram. Ncients Tristan, that's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.
- [57:39]
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