John Steele (4:13)

John, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.

Mint Mobile Ad (4:17)

Pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

John Steele (4:19)

Now, everyone loves a zodiac, and it feels especially true this time of year with particularly the Chinese Zodiac. But no such thing as a silly question. What exactly is the Chinese zodiac?

Mint Mobile Ad (4:30)

Yeah, I mean, it's not a silly question. It's actually not a simple question either, because it's kind of a misnamed concept. I mean, the zodiac in its technical meaning. Meaning is a division of the path of the sun into 12 equal parts. So as we think of the Earth in the center of the universe, as we view it, we have the sun moving around us and the moon and the planets moving around us, and they trace up this path that we call the zodiac, and we can divide that into 12 equal parts. That's what the zodiac is in terms of astronomy. But the Chinese zodiac is actually something quite different. The Chinese zodiac is basically just a cycle of 12 that are associated with animals, because it's a cycle of 12 with 12 animals. People have just called it a zodiac because we have 12 animals in the Western zodiac. So it's actually just a coincidence of the fact that there's 12 and they're named after animals or associated with animals that people call it the Chinese Zodiac, but it's really a misnamed concept.

John Steele (5:21)

Is it always that magic number, John? Is it always that magic number of 12? Whether it's a zodiac officially or as in the case of the Chinese zodiac, it's not actually a zodiac.

Mint Mobile Ad (5:30)

Yeah, so we have, from China various different cycles based on different numbers. So we have a cycle of 12, which is this thing that gets associated with the zodiac, which is a cycle that's actually officially called the 12 earthly branches. When it cycles through from 1 to 12 on a repeating cycle, we have another cycle of 10 called the 10 heavenly stems. And you can put those two cycles together and they run side by side. And if you go through the whole cycle, then it takes 60 to go around in the whole cycle. So we have this cycle of 60 that keeps repeating, made up of a cycle of 12 and a cycle of 10. And that cycle is applied to all different aspects of Chinese life and society. So you have a cycle of the 60 years, and you also have a cycle of 60 days. So just like our days of the week, the Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday is a cycle of seven. In China, you have a cycle of 60 days. And so the cycle of 12 is kind of one aspect of that cycle. So it's like a sub cycle, if you like. If that's 60, it's this repeating cycle of 12 that just keeps going round and round. So you have a cycle of 12 days and you have a cycle of 12 years, all of which have the same name. So there are 12 names for each individual entry in this 12 cycle. This cycle is applied to all sorts of things. So the Chinese day is divided into 12, what we call double hours, so 12 two hour long intervals. And they're also named after these 12 different earthly branches. So this cycle of 12 is used all throughout different aspects of Chinese life and Chinese concepts of the earth and the world around us. And then as one aspect of this is they get associated with different things. And one of the dissociations is with the animals. And so that's why we get this cycle of 12 animals that have been associated with the 12 years. And this is quite Asia. I mean, this goes back almost 2,000 years or so that we have this cycle of 12 going on and on, and this being associated with these animals that then the year, then we have the year. We're just ending the year of the dragon and we're going into the year of the snake now.

John Steele (7:23)

I mean, from an outsider looking in, it does feel like that with the numbers 60 and 12 and animals only being a small part of it. That in the Chinese tradition, it's almost, and forgive me if I'm slightly wrong here, but it feels like layers of an onion, because it is very detailed, dare I say complicated at first to get your head around these various parts of this whole system.

Mint Mobile Ad (7:45)

Yeah, that's true. It is. I mean, I think the onion analogy is a nice analogy. It's like it is these all these different layers of meaning that all these different cycles have. And we have to think of these cycles almost like gears going on together. They're all interlocking and changing.

John Steele (7:57)

They complement each other. Do they?

Mint Mobile Ad (7:58)

Exactly. They complement and combine to give you various different associations that can be used. And I mean, I think for us it is, you know, coming as outsiders, this takes a while to get your head around. But of course, for the ancient Chinese, this was so familiar to them that it's trivial because they've grown up with it. It's just what they know. So this cycle of 12 and all these associations, so part of everyday life, that they're just familiar with it in the same way that we're familiar with the 12 signs of the Western Zodiac or the 24 hours of the day or something.

John Steele (8:29)

Well, John, you're going to help us peel away that onion for us layer by layer. But let's go back to ancient China and the origins of the Chinese zodiac. I know is so many stories. For instance, let's say in ancient Greece with various cities, you have like a mythological origin story and then a history, historical origin story. Is it the same with the origins of the Chinese zodiac?

Mint Mobile Ad (8:51)

It's absolutely the same. We really don't know the origin of the Chinese zodiac or even the original cycle of 12 before it gets associated with the animals. I mean, there are various different myths about this. So there are myths about the association between the 12 earthly branches and the animals. So there's a very famous myth about the Jade Emperor holding a race.

John Steele (9:11)

This is the race, isn't it? Yes, the great race.

Mint Mobile Ad (9:13)

Yes, the great race where the animals run and have to cross a river. And this gives you the order of the 12 signs of the zodiac. So what happens in the race? I mean, there's different versions of this myth, but in the sort of the prevailing version, the rat wins the race because it convinces the ox to let it stand on its back and cross the river along with a cat. And then when it gets to the bank of the river, the rat pushes the cat off into the river and jumps ahead of the ox. So it wins the race and becomes the first of the sequence. And of course, the poor cat is then lost in the river. So that doesn't become an animal in the sequence at all.

John Steele (9:42)

Oh, it doesn't become an animal at all. Oh, the poor cat.

Mint Mobile Ad (9:44)

That's why there's no cat in the Chinese zodiac. So you have this myth of, as I say, of the Jade Emperor. So going back to, you know, really ancient times of this great race that gives you the order of the 12. But you also have other explanations that people have made over the years, including many centuries ago, people pointed out that, for example, the Chinese sign for the earthly branch that is associated with a snake, which is the sign for the sea, actually looks, if you draw it, and the Chinese character, looks a bit like a snake. And that can be done for a couple of the other characters as well. So people said, well, maybe the origin is actually in the graphical drawing, drawing of the signs. And people said, oh, well, this looks a bit like the animal, so we'll make that association. So there's all sorts of possible reasons or explanations for why the animals were chosen. But as I say, we don't, you know, we don't know truthfully what the answer is.

John Steele (10:36)

I was born in the year of the rats, so I love how that story of the great race and how the rat takes a piggyback on the ox and then jumps off to be the first one across the line. Hence why the rat is at the start of the cycle and then the ox and then I can't remember the rest, but we'll, we'll talk about those animals in a bit. But it's interesting. So we know its origins are in the ancient period, so 2,000 years ago, as you mentioned earlier, John. But pinning it down exactly, do we have a rough estimate or can we see when it starts getting integrated into Chinese society?

Mint Mobile Ad (11:05)

The 12 branches and the 10 stems, we can trace back very ancient. We can see this already in the Shang dynasty oracle bones, which date from 15,000 BC or so. So they're very ancient. The application of these to the cycle of 60, that's made up from the combination of these two, the stems and the branches, we can trace back, as I say, to the Shang dynasty. When it was applied to years seems to be later, sometime in the first millennium bc, but we don't know quite when. And then the association with the animals seems to be there, at least in the, in the Han dynasty. So sometime around the beginning of the Christian era, that sort of time period. So just over 2,000 years ago.

John Steele (11:45)

And John, forgive me for being dumb, but I'm also going to get you to re. Explain because you mentioned the branches and the stems there and our 12 and then the 10 and then that leads up to the. So can you just explain to us once again how those numbers, how the branches and the stems are linked to the 60 together, please?

Mint Mobile Ad (12:03)

So the 12 branches and the 10 stems each run through every sequence. So every day or every year, we go on one in each of those two cycles. So, for example, this is entering the year of the snake, which means that this is the sixth one of the 12 branches next year. So in January 2026, we'll enter the other horse, which is the seventh one of the 12 branches. So we'll go through, and go through the whole 12 and then that will repeat again. Now, at the same time, there's another cycle going around, which is the cycle of the 10 stems, the 10 heavenly stems that will again increase one in that cycle of 10 each year. So what we have every year then is a combination of these two different parts. We have one from the 10 heavenly stems and one from the 12 earthly branches. Each of those are increasing by one each time. So we'll go through. We'll go through, you know, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, all the way up till we get to 10, 10. The next one will be on one again for the 10 stems and 11 for the branches, two 12 and then three, one and so forth. And we can go around this whole sequence until. And then we eventually will get back to one one again after 60 times through the sequence.

John Steele (13:19)

Right. So when it once again reunites together is when the cycle begins again. And that's 60 years.

Mint Mobile Ad (13:25)

Exactly. That's when we get back to 60 years.

John Steele (13:28)

Yes, thank you for explaining that. I needed that a bit more because there was quite a lot of information right at the start. So now I understand that and that tradition, you know, the 12 and the 10 and the animals are just put onto the 12, basically. They're added onto that 12.

Mint Mobile Ad (13:41)

Exactly, yes, yeah. So the animals are just one of the associations that are then imposed upon this cycle of 12.

John Steele (13:46)

And the Shang Dynasty, as you mentioned, before the Han dynasty. So it's very interesting to hear how ancient the stems and the branches and the 60 pattern is.

Mint Mobile Ad (13:55)

Yeah, this is going back to, you know, 1500 BC or so. So this is very ancient, you know, three and a half thousand years ago. And it's grown, as far as we can tell, it's run continuously since then with no interruption. You know, we don't have any evidence that it, that people missed a year or skipped anything here and there. It has run continuously since then.

John Steele (14:10)

But it's a fun fact, isn't it? Almost halfway between today and the Shang Dynasty, the animals were incorporated. So it's amazing to think, as you mentioned, for how long continuously that cycle was there in ancient China before the addition of these animals.

Mint Mobile Ad (14:25)

That's right, yes. Yes. I mean, I think that there were other associations earlier on. We know that in the Shang dynasty and very early, these branches and stems were connected with various forms of astrology and divination and fortune telling and rituals. There already existed as sort of an infrastructure of divinatory practices and rituals surrounding these that then the animals get embedded within or added to this existing structure.

John Steele (14:52)

And John, how much astrology and also, I guess philosophy, Chinese astrology and philosophy is really entwined in the 10 stems and the 12 branches and the animals later on, Lots and lots.

Mint Mobile Ad (15:05)

So the 12 branches, as I say, are associated with all sorts of things, including the animals, but also directions, the hours of the day and so forth. So they're used in many different aspects. Similarly, the 10 stems have all sorts of associations. So they're associated with the five phases of wood, fire, earth, metal and water. That, again, are very fundamental within Chinese philosophy, worldview, astrology, whatever you want to call it. All of these things, ritual, practice, religion, everything. And the 10 stems are also associated with the, you know, the Yin and Yang, which I think everybody's heard of, but probably doesn't really quite understand what it is.

John Steele (15:42)

Yeah, what exactly is the Yin and Yang?

Mint Mobile Ad (15:45)

I don't know how to explain it. I mean, I don't fully understand it myself, to be honest. I guess it's two complementary but opposing ideas, forces, however you want. I don't quite know how to. How to explain it. It's one of these things that I think unless you're really deeply immersed in Chinese culture, it's not necessarily possible to understand these things. It's so fundamental, it's not something you can easily explain, and I don't claim to understand it myself. So the 12 stems were associated with the yin and Yang in alternating patterns. So, you know, Yin Yang, yin Yang, Yin Yang and so forth. So you have all of these different types of philosophical, cosmological, astrological, divinatory rituals, structure surrounding these stems and branches that are all interconnected. And it's not that these are the source of these other things. They all percolate and develop independently and become linked and intertwined. It's not that the five phases come out of the 10 stems. It's not the 10 stems come out the five phases. It's that they are developed and become enmeshed and associated with one another.

John Steele (16:52)

I won't go into too much detail, but you mentioned the phases there for the five phases. Can you once again, kind of explain the whole purpose of these phases and why they're phases rather than elements?

Mint Mobile Ad (17:03)

Yeah. So people used to translate the term into English as elements because of the tradition in Greek philosophy of the four elements and the idea, you know, from ancient Greek philosophy that you had with fire and water, that everything was composed of, that everything could be. All matter was composed of these parts of these four elements, different combinations, and that these elements had different characteristics. On earth, you know, fire went up and earth goes down and so forth. So the Chinese, because they are referring to some of the same things, so, you know, fire, earth, water, metal and wood, people tended to translate them and think of the same thing. But actually they're quite different in concept because they're not elements in the sense that they're not things that are put together to make matter. It's not that everything is made up of combinations of these five things. Rather, these are. Again, it's difficult to explain, but they're more like phases of being. So they're more something you can transform between. You have a sort of a phase of being like water and a phase of being like air, and that these things can interact. So it's a different concept. It's not an element that you build things out of, but rather a state of being. So that's why I think this idea of phases is maybe a slightly better translation. Although it's still complicated concept to render in one word.

John Steele (18:21)

But it does kind of convey it much better, doesn't it? This idea that you're not always fire or you're not always wood or metal and so on. You know, it can change depending on life situations, on behavior and so on. And that goes back, I guess, to that philosophical thinking in ancient China.

Mint Mobile Ad (18:36)

Exactly. Yes. Yes.

John Steele (18:37)

So let's go on to the animals, and we've mentioned ones already like the rat, the ox and the unfortunate cat, which missed out being part of the canonical 12. But, John, this is another good pub quiz question coming. Coming up. What are the animals that make up the Chinese zodiac?

Mint Mobile Ad (18:53)

So the animals are in order. We have the rat, the ox, the tiger, the rabbit, the dragon, which is the year we're just finishing the snake, the horse, the goat, the monkey, the rooster, the Dog and the pig.

John Steele (19:10)

The pig comes last.

Mint Mobile Ad (19:11)

The pig comes last because supposedly in the story, he stopped to eat on the way to the. In the middle of the race and fell asleep after eating.

John Steele (19:17)

I must admit, it does quite surprise me that the dragon finished fifth. When you think what a dragon has compared to those other animals.

Mint Mobile Ad (19:22)

Well, again, according to the myth, or one version of the myth, it's because the dragons are sometimes at least good in China. And so he'd stopped off on the way to help a village by doing whatever dragons do. His kindly nature meant he got delayed.

John Steele (19:35)

Yeah, Got beaten by the rabbit, but fair enough. Well, that's very interesting indeed. Okay, and so we are ending the year of the dragon before the Chinese New Year, and we're entering the year of the snake. Is it the snake is the next one?

Mint Mobile Ad (19:45)

Snake's next one, yes. Yeah.

John Steele (19:47)

And so the other big question, John, what do all these animals mean?

Mint Mobile Ad (19:53)

That's another big question that's not easy to answer. Here you can draw a comparison with the Western zodiac because they do have meaning for ritual in China. So, again, from quite early, from the Han Dynasty onwards, we have representations of these animals involved in numerous rituals and things like that and festivals as puppets or as masks and things like that. But they carry what we could loosely call astrology. You have just like in the Western Zodiac, where people talk about whether certain people are compatible because they're a whatever and a whatever, an Aquarius and a Leo or something. You have the same idea in the Chinese zodiac that people who are born in certain years because of the animals, that they will either get on or not get on, or that it's good to do some things. Some of these animals will be good for doing certain things on a certain day. So it gets fed into various astrological predictions about the life of individuals and their compatibility with other in their suit abilities to do various tasks.

John Steele (20:51)

Is there any link to astrological constellations like in the Western Zodiac at all.

Mint Mobile Ad (20:56)

With the 12 animals? No, there doesn't seem to be any link with the constellations. I mean, one reason that there might be 12, why indeed there's 12 branches that's been suggested is because there's 12 months in the year in the usual calendar, and also because the planet Jupiter takes 12 years to go around the Earth, So the Jupiter moves basically 30 degrees around us every year as we see it. And so that takes 12 years approximately. And so there's this idea in Chinese astronomy of this division of the sky into 12 parts based upon Jupiter's location. And so that also gets associated with these animals at certain point. I don't think it's the origin of the animals or the division, but again, it's one of these things that is the coincidence of the number 12 gets brought in there. So we get these associations made.

John Steele (21:41)

John, I must apologise, but you are on the Ancients. So this is the podcast which asks the big questions in regards to this and I must also ask one more and we may well not know the answer, but do we know why back in Han Dynasty China, when deciding if they are deciding, let's say in circles or wherever, which animal to assign to which branch they choose those animals, do we think that the rat and the snake and the dragon and the pig had important meaning to them at that time, which influenced their decision?

Mint Mobile Ad (22:13)

Yeah, that's a very good question. A difficult question to answer. I think one of the reasons it's difficult to answer is we're not really sure where this comes from in terms of whether this is a folk tradition that was already in existence that then becomes part of courtly practice and sort of bubbles up from below, or whether this is something that is invented, if you like, by the state scholars and ritual experts and so forth. That's something we don't know. And I think that these are all animals that people would be familiar with. These are not animals that are. I mean, except for a dragon, of course. But dragons have such a huge place in Chinese mythology anyway that people know them from mythology. So it's not like there's some weird animal here that no one's ever seen before. So these are fairly everyday animals for the most part. But yeah, why these ones particularly were chosen and why they were chosen in this order and why these associations were made? No, we don't know. As I say, there are suggestions. People, you know, even several hundred years ago were suggesting that some of these associations are because of similarities between the shape of the Chinese characters, but that only really explains one or two. And then people say, well, that's extrapolated from there. Well, it's possible, but we really don't know.

John Steele (23:21)

Well, I know how in the originally Babylonian zodiac, but I know it's often called the Western zodiac today. You have all these websites and people laying out the strengths and weaknesses of each of them and each of them has their own qualities. With the Chinese zodiac, did they think any particular animals were better than others were the best, or how do they approach that in regards to their qualities and I guess, yeah, overall strengths versus.

Mint Mobile Ad (23:47)

Weaknesses, I think that the way they're conceived in China is that each has strengths and weaknesses, so they're different. I don't think there's a hierarchy. There's not a, you know, you're lucky if you're born in this year because you're going to be a snake or whatever. I think it's more that the idea that these people, that people might be suited to different things and these different characteristics. It might be useful in certain ways. And so it's not a hierarchy, it's a way of thinking about people in or thinking about things in different ways and having different aptitudes or different suitabilities for different tasks.

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John Steele (26:25)

We'Ve talked about the branches, we've talked about the stems and how the animals become part of that and the overall number of 60 and how that's also important covered the phases and the animals. So let's move on to the Chinese New Year, because this is something which is obviously so closely associated with the Chinese zodiac today. Now is Chinese New Year and the whole festival of it. Is it just as ancient as the Chinese zodiac? Are they always intertwined?

Mint Mobile Ad (26:50)

Yeah. So the Chinese New Year Festival, what's now in China called the Spring Festival, is very ancient. I mean, we have references to festivals going back to what's called the Spring and Autumn period. So in the middle of the first millennium bc, again, it's one of these things that becomes more and more codified as time goes on. Standard practices seem to develop probably again in the Han Dynasty and in the early first few centuries ad, where we have these traditions of the association with the colour red and cleaning and things like that, and also ritual performances and.

John Steele (27:21)

Linking into that at the same time, it must have also been quite a question of them figuring out when the zodiac year itself begins. How do they come upon that date of deciding that the zodiac year will begin with what does now become Chinese New Year?

Mint Mobile Ad (27:36)

So the Chinese calendar is what we would call a ludi solar calendar. That means that the months follow the cycle of the moon, but in order to keep the calendar in line with the seasons, because a lunar month will only have 29 or 30 days. So if you have 12 of them, you're short of the length of a solar year, which is 365 and a quarter days long. So what that means is you have to add in an extra month roughly every three years. So this is what we know they did in China from very early. So most years have 12 months, but some years have 13 months. And in China, the tradition was that the first month of the year began on the second new moon after the winter solstice. So you have the winter solstice towards the end of December in our calendar, and then you have one new moon and then you have the second new moon, which is the one that's going to come up towards the end of January this year. That would be the beginning of the Chinese New Year. How people found that out is twofold. So probably in the countryside, and most irregular people would just know, you keep track of what month it was and you would know when the equinox was, roughly because it's middle of winter, effectively when the days are shortest and you can realize when things are starting to. To pass that. And then the New moon is just something you can look for. So you wait until the moon disappears and then that's when the new moon is going to appear. So that's something you could get. You could just look out and see. And you might be wrong by one day, but you're going to be more or less correct as to when the new year begins.

John Steele (29:02)

And is it also influenced by the fact that many of those people in the rural countryside, they're cultivating rice? I mean, it's agriculture. So the seasons and knowing the length of the days, that's also crucial to their survival.

Mint Mobile Ad (29:14)

Exactly, yes. Yeah. I mean, I think this is. You know, people often say that farmers need calendars, but I think that's wrong. I think farmers intuitively know the calendar. They know what the cycle of the seasons is, the cycle of the crops are. So they know when the shortest time of the shortest days are and when the equinox are, you know, to a good estimate. Before the days of streetlights, before the days of televisions, the night sky was part of everybody's existence and environment. They saw it all the time, and they were very familiar what was going on in the night sky. They were very familiar with the cycle of the moon. So I think in agricultural societies in China in the past, everybody knew kind of what time of year it was, roughly, and whereabouts in the month you were. That was just a given. But for the sort of upper levels of society, in the court and the official and the bureaucracy and the government, you have a very well defined, mathematically calculated calendar. So the Chinese calendar, the official Chinese calendar, again stretching back at least to the Han Dynasty. I mean, it must have had predecessors. But our earliest real evidence for it is in the Han Dynasty was a calendar that was calculated. So they were not observing the moon, they were not observing the solstice. It was all done by calculation. And what they did is they calculated when every new moon was. So actually, the new moon is something you can't see. The official new moon is in between the time you last see the moon and the time you first see the new moon crescent. So somewhere in the middle is the official point of conjunction of the sun and moon. So they calculated that every month, and they produced almanacs distributed throughout the country that contained the calendar for the coming year, with all the calculated dates of when the new, when each month began, whether there was an intercalary month and all the festival dates and everything that were embedded within this.

John Steele (30:48)

That must have been a massive job considering the size of Han Dynasty China. And as you mentioned earlier, it's not a fixed calendar. It changes every year. So then the bureaucracy, the administration, to distribute to all the people who knew it, you know, knowing what the situation was that year. A bit of a logistical nightmare, surely.

Mint Mobile Ad (31:07)

Well, y. Yes. I mean, just the calculations. I mean, there was a whole bureau of astronomers who were tasked with producing this calendar. The calendar, by the way, is not just the count of days for the Chinese. It also included things like when there were going to be eclipses, or when planets would pass by certain other planets or so forth. So it's a real. It's like an astronomical guidebook every year of every astronomical event that's going to happen. So there was a huge bureaucracy and part of the government. These were state employees who had to pass civil service exams to become astronomers employed by the court. And they were tasked with producing these almanacs every year. And these almanacs were then presented to the emperor because one of the emperor's duties was to ensure that there was a calendar. This was one of the fundamental things the emperor had to do every year to prove that he was the right person to be emperor, that he was following justly was to show that he could harmonize heaven and earth. And one way to harmonize heaven and earth was to have it written down on a calendar was to show that you knew exactly what was going on when. And so this was not just a practical administrative matter, but a real ideological matter for the Chinese state that the emperor had to produce a calendar and had to distribute it. And there's huge ceremonies around the distribution. So in later times, you know, it's not only to China that the Chinese calendar would then be sent off to Korea and elsewhere in official convoys with presentations of the calendar that these vassal states were expected to follow. So it was both a huge administrative task, but also of huge ideological importance to the Chinese state both to produce a calendar and to produce a calendar that was actually quite accurate. Because if people were observing things that they hadn't predicted, that was a real bad omen that was a shine that the emperor was not doing his job right.

John Steele (32:53)

So we have this link between Chinese New Year and the zodiac, the year of the various animals stretching back 2,000 years. John. So it's extraordinary and it seems to endure. But something I also want to pick up there that you mentioned mentioned was you mentioned, like client states or client kingdoms of Han Dynasty China, like Korea. So did they also export the Chinese zodiac and their ways of thinking beyond the borders of present day China?

Mint Mobile Ad (33:17)

Yes. So the Chinese zodiac and I mean, many aspects of Chinese philosophy and ritual and the Chinese calendar effectively were taken up throughout East Asia. So in Japan, in Vietnam, all areas around China's borders effectively follow the Chinese calendar. They place their own interpretations upon it, of course. So they have, you know, you get different animals, for example, in some different countries, you get some regional variation. They become localized to make them applicable to their local surroundings. I mean, this goes part and parcel along with many other aspects. So many of these cultures in medieval times were also adopted things like the Chinese script and the Chinese language for writing, even if that's not what they were speaking. And often at times they were, if not part of China, they were heavily influenced by Chinese culture and Chinese government.

John Steele (34:05)

Were there any potential deviations? So I can imagine, would the year of the Snake still be the year of the Snake, let's say in Southeast Asia, or the year of the Horse or so on? Or did they sometimes bring in their own animals into this story and the meaning and importance of this zodiac spread further afield?

Mint Mobile Ad (34:23)

So, yes, they did bring in their own animals. Many of them are common across East Asia, of course, because they're common animals. But you do get local variations, local traditions coming along with new animals substituted for different ones from the Chinese system.

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John Steele (35:58)

John, you've performed heroically today because I know that your main area of interest is actually a bit further to the west with Babylonian astronomy and the origins of The Western Zodiac, Taurus and Aries and so on and so forth. However, I want to bring in that now. Can you see any connections or contact between the Chinese Zodiac and the Western ancient Babylonian Zodiac?

Mint Mobile Ad (36:23)

It's a good question, and it's an interesting question, not in terms of origin. So the Chinese and the Babylonian Zodiacs are completely independent when they're created. The Babylonian Zodiac, we can trace the development of that quite well. And it comes across developed sometime in the 5th century BC, and it comes pretty stabilized in terms of the names of the signs of the zodiac by around 300 BC. And that Babylonian Zodiac is then taken up outside of Babylonia. So it goes to Egypt, it goes to Greece, it goes from Greece to India. So we have the Babylonian Zodiac in India in the first centuries ad and then eventually it comes from India into China. So with Buddhism coming into China, particularly in the 4th, 5th centuries AD, along with Buddhism, we get Buddhist astrology. There was a big, big tradition in India of astrology in the Buddhist tradition. And we get that coming into China along with Buddhism. And along with that comes the Babylonian Zodiac. So we get these two systems interacting in China. When the Western Zodiac, the Babylonian Zodiac, first enters China, there's a lot of debate as to how it should be interpreted, how we name these things. So we get the same names attributed. So they just take across the Chinese names from the 12 branches and use those to name the zodiac. Sometimes they translate the Sanskrit name for the signs that came from the Babylonian. Other times they associate them with the animals from the Chinese zodiac. So they're trying to sort of harmonize these two systems.

John Steele (37:53)

So it's not a completely hostile bull versus ox kind of thing. There is an attempt to incorporate this other zodiac with the zodiac in China that they have been accustomed to and for hundreds of years by that point.

Mint Mobile Ad (38:04)

Exactly. Yeah. So they're quite comfortable taking on the system of it being a mathematical division of the band of the moon and the planets into 12 equal parts. So they take on that system. But then what they have to do is come up with their own way of naming each sign. And the Babylonian names had already been kind of transformed by the time they got to India. So the Indians have slightly different names for them. And then by the time it gets to China, they're again renaming, partly because some of these things are not applicable to a Chinese context. Some of the names are maybe not necessarily understandable because they're named after gods and things like that. So we have what we call Sagittarius as the archer, the half man. Half horse archer. For the Babylonians there's a God called Pablzig, Pabilsag who looks like this, who's himself a half man, half horse archer. What would you call that in China? There's nothing you could call that. So they either have a choice of just translating the name as it's a meaningless name, or else you have to re identify it as something else. So what they do is they're searching around and trying out different ways of naming the 12 signs. And often they just kind of portal across from the 12 branches, the names of the branches across to the 12 signs.

John Steele (39:13)

But it's interesting you say there John, because as you mentioned right at the beginning, I mean the Chinese zodiac not actually being a zodiac and not actually linked to the lunar path. So it's interesting to think how they incorporate that belief system into the Chinese zodiac belief system. And that idea of hybridization. I must also ask, and I mean would you argue that that hybrid, is it successful? Does it endure or do they decide actually we'll just keep with what we've known?

Mint Mobile Ad (39:39)

I mean it does endure certainly for quite a while. And I think they just view it as another tool. It's another system, particularly within astrology and divination. It's just another set of things you can correlate with this cycle of 12. So it doesn't replace the so called Chinese zodiac animals. It's just yet another system. It's another, as I say, this 12 is associated with so many different things, with directions, with time of day, with year, with the animals and so forth. This is just one more thing you can associate it with. This is what astrology does all over the world. It wants more and more things you can make associations between. This is how astrology has developed. And so in China it's no different. This is just another thing you can make associations with. So it gives you more flexibility, more things you can make connections between.

John Steele (40:22)

I mean, going the other way, do we know much about the Chinese zodiac going westwards?

Mint Mobile Ad (40:26)

We can trace it a little bit in terms of, at least into the Islamic world. So in China, in probably the late Tang, so late first millennium A.D. muslim people become prevalent in China to a certain extent and Muslim astronomy becomes established in China. So even to the extent that sometimes the emperors would establish a second bureau of astronomy staffed by Muslim astronomers to kind of give an alternative set of calculations that could be cross checked with the Chinese native astronomy. So through this, because we have this interaction between the Chinese and the Islamic astronomers, we can see some of aspects of the Chinese zodiac coming back into China, to the west, into Persia and so forth, particularly in terms of the iconography, so in terms of the visualization of this, the depictions of animals rather than the concepts, but more, as I say, the way that things were visualized in artistic works or in diagrams and things like that.

John Steele (41:23)

I mean, in the previous answer, you also mentioned the coming of Buddhism and how it influences that change and the bringing of the new ideas. Then you've also got Islam there. Does it highlight the importance of religion in the story of the Chinese zodiac? Is that closely linked with the story?

Mint Mobile Ad (41:39)

Yes, I think it is. I think that religion in China, again, is a very complicated thing to talk about because it's not a uniform thing. And these things we kind of call religious Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism and things like that are not exclusive. People could be more than one and take ideas from one and mix them with others and so forth. It's not that you necessarily just confined to one way of doing things, but I think that that religious background informs so much of the ritual practice that's behind all of this. So all of this New Year's festival is all so heavily connected to religious practices, religious rituals, religious myths, worship and so forth, so that I think we just have to see the Chinese zodiac and the New Year Festival as actually largely just part of this bigger picture of Chinese ritual and cult and so forth.

John Steele (42:31)

I must also say, as you mentioned, as the zodiac endures with Buddhism, then Islam and all these various dynasties of China down through the last few millennia, I mean, it must be one of the greatest enduring aspects of Chinese culture, the zodiac and the Chinese New Year Festival, to think that it's been there for more than 2,000 years. And I guess more than that, if we talk about the origins with the branches and the stems in the Shang dynasty, but it has still endured. And that's fascinating, the strength of it.

Mint Mobile Ad (43:03)

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think this is what we see, is that these sort of simple concepts have a very long life. You know, the same the cycle of the seven days of the week, the same as many simple religious activities or simple bits of scientific knowledge. The fact that we have 360 degrees in a circle that goes back to the ancient Babylonians, the fact we have 24 hours in the day that goes back to ancient Egypt. All these things, they're very simple, but they're so core to what we are and what we know, that they've endured for so long, and they're not going to disappear. Scientific ideas are developed all the time and become replaced because they become outdated and we improve on them and people forget about them. But these sort of core ideas of the zodiac, the Chinese zodiac, the days of the week, these are never going to go away. These are so simple that everybody understands them. They're so core to us that I think that they will endure for a long, long time.

John Steele (43:55)

Well, John, that's a lovely thought and statement to leave it on. And it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast and Happy New Year.

Mint Mobile Ad (44:04)

Happy New Year to everyone. Yes, thank you.

Tristan Hughes (44:10)

Well, there you go. There was Professor John Steele giving you an introduction to the Chinese zodiac. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you for listening to the Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favor. And don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad free and Watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at history.hit.com subscribe.

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