The Great Jewish Revolt

Summary

Summary of "The Great Jewish Revolt" Episode of The Ancients

Introduction

In the April 10, 2025 episode of The Ancients, hosted by Tristan Hughes from History Hit, the focus is on the pivotal event in ancient history known as the Great Jewish Revolt. Tristan engages in an in-depth discussion with Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers, a renowned classicist historian and author, to unravel the complexities of this eight-year conflict that reshaped the relationship between the Jewish people and the Roman Empire.

Understanding the Great Jewish Revolt

Timestamp [00:56]
Tristan Hughes opens the episode by setting the stage in 70 A.D., when Jerusalem was under siege by approximately 50,000 Roman soldiers aiming to suppress one of the most enduring centers of resistance against Roman rule—the Great Jewish Revolt. He emphasizes the revolt's lasting significance, noting its enduring resonance up to the present day.

Dr. Rogers concurs, highlighting the revolt's profound impact:
"It's history that isn't over, it's living history... it's still present in the minds of tens of millions of people." ([03:15])

Sources and Historiography

Timestamp [04:20]
Dr. Rogers outlines the primary sources available for studying the Great Jewish Revolt, with a particular emphasis on the works of Josephus Labius, a Jewish historian who was both an eyewitness and a participant in the events. Josephus authored several accounts, including an initial narrative in Greek after obtaining Roman citizenship and later, more extensive works like The Antiquities and his autobiographical The Life of Josephus. These texts, alongside accounts from Roman historians such as Suetonius, Tacitus, and Cassius Dio, provide a multifaceted view of the revolt.

He further mentions the importance of archaeological findings:
"We also have coins, artifacts, and inscriptions that help us piece together the history." ([07:00])

Roman Control of Judea Pre-Revolt

Timestamp [10:32]
The discussion transitions to the Roman administration of Judea before the revolt. Dr. Rogers details the transition from Herod the Great's client kingship to direct Roman governance under prefects like Pontius Pilate. He explains how Herod's governance maintained order without infringing on cultural and religious practices, a balance that deteriorated under his successors.

"Pontius Pilate had a lot of problems apart from that... his prefecture lasted for 10 years, but he made some mistakes which caused unrest." ([14:26])

Triggering the Revolt: Tensions in Caesarea

Timestamp [19:20]
Dr. Rogers traces the revolt’s origins to escalating tensions among different ethnic and cultural groups in Judea, intensified by events such as the attempted sacrifice in Caesarea. This act symbolized the deeper conflicts over religious and cultural dominance, ultimately igniting the full-scale rebellion.

"The rivalry in Caesarea led to a riot over a sacrifice that a Greek guy decided he would make next to a synagogue." ([21:41])

Initial Conflict and Roman Underestimation

Timestamp [27:35]
As the revolt gains momentum, initial Jewish successes, such as the defeat of the Roman governor Gallus's army, shock the Romans. Dr. Rogers compares this to other significant Roman setbacks, highlighting the unexpected resilience and strategic acumen of the Jewish rebels.

"The Romans lost more soldiers than usual, which put the cat among the pigeons." ([29:11])

Roman Response and Vespasian’s Campaign

Timestamp [29:47]
In response to initial setbacks, Emperor Nero appoints Vespasian, an experienced general, to quell the revolt. Vespasian's campaign, which involved assembling a formidable force of about 60,000 soldiers, marked a turning point in the conflict. Dr. Rogers emphasizes Vespasian's strategic approach, contrasting it with his predecessor's underestimation of the Jewish resistance.

"Vespasian knew this was a siege operation requiring detailed planning for logistics and supply." ([42:13])

Internal Divisions Among the Jews

Timestamp [34:20]
The Great Jewish Revolt was not monolithic; internal conflicts and debates over strategy plagued the Jewish factions. Dr. Rogers discusses the rise of hardliners like the Sicarii and Zealots, whose uncompromising stance against the Romans influenced Jerusalem's decision to continue fighting despite the odds.

"There was a huge level of commitment to actually achieving independence from Rome, no matter what the cost." ([37:56])

Siege of Jerusalem: Climax of the Revolt

Timestamp [41:42]
The conversation delves into the infamous Siege of Jerusalem, portrayed as the fulcrum of the revolt. Dr. Rogers describes the Romans' methodical siege tactics, including the use of advanced siege machinery and the strategic breaching of Jerusalem's fortified walls. The prolonged siege led to severe famine and suffering within the city.

"The Romans had to break through three sets of walls, which was an incredibly difficult task." ([43:39])

Destruction of the Temple and Aftermath

Timestamp [47:40]
The culmination of the siege was the catastrophic destruction of the Second Temple, a central religious site for the Jews. Dr. Rogers underscores the Temple's symbolic and religious significance, noting that its destruction marked not only a physical loss but also a profound cultural and spiritual trauma for the Jewish people.

"This was the destruction of the center of the sacrificial cult of the Jews... it changes the history of Rome and Christianity." ([47:40])

He also highlights the long-term implications, such as the Flavian dynasty's propaganda and the enduring negative perceptions catalyzed by early Christian writers linking the Temple's destruction to the crucifixion of Jesus.

Legacy and Modern Significance

Timestamp [54:43]
Dr. Rogers concludes by reflecting on the enduring legacy of the Great Jewish Revolt. He asserts that its memory continues to influence Jewish identity and collective consciousness, making it one of the most significant events of the first century with ramifications that persist into modern times.

"This is an inflection point in human history... This story, as I say, is not over." ([54:43])

Conclusion

Tristan Hughes wraps up the episode by acknowledging Dr. Rogers' expertise and promoting his book, For the Freedom of Zion, which delves deeper into the revolt's intricacies. He also directs listeners to related episodes on Masada for those interested in exploring the revolt's aftermath further.

Notable Quotes

• Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers:
  • "It's history that isn't over, it's living history... it's still present in the minds of tens of millions of people." ([03:15])
  • "Pontius Pilate had a lot of problems apart from that... his prefecture lasted for 10 years, but he made some mistakes which caused unrest." ([14:26])
  • "This was the destruction of the center of the sacrificial cult of the Jews... it changes the history of Rome and Christianity." ([47:40])
  • "This story, as I say, is not over." ([54:43])

Recommendations for Further Listening

Tristan encourages listeners to check out additional episodes focusing on the Siege of Masada, titled Besieging Masada the First Part and Myths of Masada the Second Part, featuring insights from Dr. Jodi Magnus.

Subscription and Support

Listeners are reminded to subscribe to The Ancients on Spotify or their preferred podcast platform to support the show and gain access to History Hit's extensive library of ad-free content and original documentaries.

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing a clear and engaging overview for those who haven't listened to The Ancients.

Transcript

[Tristan Hughes]

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[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

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[Tristan Hughes]

Brad, you're on mute.

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[Tristan Hughes]

It's 70 A.D. jerusalem is under siege. Some 50,000 Roman soldiers have descended on the city, keen to crush the greatest beacon of resistance still standing. The brutal siege that followed would be the climax to a bloody revolt that has been going on for four years. An anti Roman revolt that still resonates with many people today. We know it as the Great Jewish Revolt. It's the ancients of history hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, joining me today to talk through the story of the Great Jewish Revolts. I was delighted to interview Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers, the classicist historian and an author who has written an incredibly detailed book on the Great Jewish Revolt from origins to endgame. Let's get into the interview. Guy, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast today day.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Well, thank you for inviting me. I appreciate it.

[Tristan Hughes]

You're more than welcome. But I hope you're ready because this is a massive topic, the Great Jewish Revolt. So we got eight years, a war that lasted eight years. We've got two Roman emperors, a merciless siege of Jerusalem, and I mean, this whole event, it still holds so much meaning today, isn't it? It's still significant for people down to present day.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, I tell my students all the time that most of the ancient history that I teach is fascinating and interesting, especially to ancient historians, but it's kind of all over. It doesn't really matter to most of my students who won the Peloponnesian War, but the revolt against Rome in 66 and its outcome with the destruction of the temple and then kind of the progressive deterioration in relations between romance, Romans and Jews and Jews and Christians, unfortunately has resonances right down to the present. And actually, although I wrote the book back in 2020 21, the events of the last year to year and a half have only kind of heightened that sense that this is history that isn't over, it's living history. So, yeah, it's still present in the minds of tens of millions of people.

[Tristan Hughes]

Absolutely. An interesting comparison or contrast you put there, guy, with the Peloponnesian War between Athens and its allies and Sparta and its allies. But let's set the scene. So with the Great Jewish Revolt, what kinds of sources do you have to study this incredibly important period in ancient history?

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

So obviously, the main source for the war itself is a narrative written by a very interesting and brilliant writer called Josephus Labius Josephus after he acquired Roman citizenship. His works are a little bit tricky because he in fact, wrote an original version of it, apparently in Aramaic, which was kind of the sister language of Hebrew, and sent that version to his countrymen across the Euphrates river relatively soon after the war was completed in 73 or 74. We don't have that. When Josephus went to to Rome with Titus, he wrote a Greek version of it, which was finished around 79 CE. And that's the basic narrative account. Like a lot of people who have engagement with major historical events, Josephus decided afterward that he needed to write a much longer book about his people. And so in the 80s and early 90s, he wrote this monstrously large history of the Jewish people, which is usually called the Antiquities, but in fact was called in Greek The Archaeologica, and there's a section of it which deals a second time with the revolt. And toward the end of that, he decided that he needed to do what a lot of people, a lot of American generals do anyway, to write his life story, which was made as a kind of an addendum to the antiquities. And one of the tricky parts of reconstructing what really happened is that there are some contradictions between his account of what went on, especially in the north, during the war, in the life as compared to the war. And then finally, in the late 90s, he wrote another work which was another defense of Judaism and Jews and their traditions, kind of against the slurs of this Greek intellectual called Appian. And again, there are kind of valuable pieces of information in that work as well. So we have to try to stitch everything together from. From those multiple sources written by Josephus. There also are accounts, shorter accounts in Greco Roman sources, like Suetonius and tacitus and a 3rd century Roman historian, Cassius Dio. And then there are coins and archaeological artifacts and inscriptions. And I just want to put a plug in for the epigraphical sources, which have been put together in an unbelievably professional and useful corpus by a group of scholars in Israel and outside of Israel, which have English translations of all the Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Aramaic and other language inscriptions throughout antiquity. So we have a lot of sources. The trick is, always is, you know, making sense of them, sourcing fact from fiction.

[Tristan Hughes]

But as you've highlighted there, Guy, and just to restate the importance of Josephus, because he was actively there, he was an eyewitness, he participated in this revolt, as we're going to see, he writes several works, and some of those in detail, he explores this revolt. But as you say, and with so many other ancient historians, my mind immediately actually goes to one of those prime figures who wrote about the Peloponnesian War, Thucydides, where he is involved in the fighting. Analyze the evidence very critically because there is probably some bias in there, trying to big up your role in the story and ultimately justify why, as we'll see, with the Romans, he is on the losing side.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Yeah, no, that's actually exactly right. In the case of the analogy between Thucydides and Josephus, it's probably not quite as strong because Thucydides failed to relieve a city that was under siege for the Athenians, whereas Josephus, after the siege and conquest of Jotapida, where he was kind of the presiding general on the Jewish side, you know, he surrendered and he went over to the Roman side and actually accompanied Titus to the siege of Jerusalem in seven days. So, so you're 100% correct. There are kind of, there are problems with working with Josephus's text, which are I think, almost unique in antiquity. And on that also a colleague of mine, a very good Josephus scholar named Steve Mason, has kind of brought out the, some of the rhetorical issues in Josephus's text. And then finally, very quickly, you know, Josephus has a sort of Deuteronomic view of history, which is essentially that, you know, God determines how everything is going to come out and when the Jewish people are faithful to his commands, everything works out well. And when they don't, there's disaster. And that's sort of the frame that he puts all of this in for his readers. So we have to take all those things into account.

[Tristan Hughes]

So let's set the scene for the ultimate outbreak of this great revolt. So in those decades previous guy, how did the Romans control Judea? Because I have in my mind immediately big titanic names like King Herod the Great at the time of Jesus of Nazareth. So what do we know about how the Romans controlled Judea in the run up to this great revolt?

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Right, So I think the, the starting point for understanding what happened and what went wrong really is just after the assassination of Julius Caesar. After Caesar was killed on the Ides of March in 44, his right hand man, Mark Anthony, who had had some experience in this region, decided that the point man for Roman policy should be this guy, Antipater ii, who and Idumayan and his sons, Herod, eventually Herod the Great and his brother Fassael, who originally were made tetrarchs or rulers of a quarter of territory. But after a couple of years, Anthony decided that he would push the Roman Senate to make Herod into the king of Judea, the Galilee, the, the so called Pariah, which is the, the region to the east of the Jordan river and then also south Syria. So in 40, Herod becomes king. And basically from a strategic point of view, Herod's role was going to be kind of Rome's man to hold down this very valuable real estate which was in between the Roman enemies, the Parthians to the east and then of course the Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt. So it took Herod a few years to consolidate his role, but by 37 he was kind of in charge there.

[Tristan Hughes]

And this is BC, this is BCE, this is BC 50 years before the revolt breaks out.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Right. So he's in charge from 37 until he dies in four. And in my book, I sort of argue that probably the, the reason why Herod was successful was that he figured out that on the one hand it would be important for him to keep order, which was always a kind of Roman requirement of their client kings. But he wasn't really that interested in policing the beliefs and the. And the cultural practices of the people living in his kingdom, as long as they didn't cross the line into, you know, public actions. So that's kind of how he did it. Unfortunately, after he died, his heir, his son and heir Archelaus, wasn't as successful. And after, you know, a relatively brief reign as Ethnarch, not King Augustus kind of had enough of his incompetence and rusticated him to southern gall. And at that point he decided that he would start sending out governors, handpicked governors who are called prefects to Judea to keep on top of things. Right.

[Tristan Hughes]

So it goes from client kingdom to sending this sun base into a lovely, not an exile, but a farmland retreat in what is today southern France.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Right.

[Tristan Hughes]

And then it's. The governors are basically the new rulers of Judea, Roman governors. I'm guessing this is names like Pontius Pilate, who we have from the Bible as well. Are they. They're the new figures.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, Pontius Pilate, of course, is the most famous of the prefix, because of course, according to the gospel of John 19:16, he's the guy that gave the order for the execution of somebody your audience may have heard of, Yeshua Nazarene, otherwise known as Jesus Christ. But in fact, Pontius Pilate had a lot of problems apart from that. And although his prefecture lasted for 10 years, he definitely made some mistakes which caused unrest. Like for instance, at one point trying to sneak some Roman military stanzards into Jerusalem, which probably had representations of the Roman emperors on them. So the record of the prefects who were in charge from 6 to 41 was mixed at best. And I would say that the same goes for the guys who are running the show in Rome, like our friend Gaius Caligula, whose Reign was from 37 to 41, who had the brilliant idea of introducing a statue of himself into the temple itself, which undoubtedly would have caused a major rebellion, a first big Jewish revolt at the time, except that he was assassinated. So, you know, the early period from 6 to 41, there were problems. In 41, the Emperor Claudius decided to return Judea to client king rule under this guy, Agrippa the first. And he sort of went back to the Herodian model of trying to, you know, leave people alone as long as they didn't cause riots and things like that. But he died suddenly in 44, and at that point the Romans decided again to send out governors, this time called procurators. And it's really in the period from 44 to 66 when the when the revolt broke out that you can see things begin to spiral out of control as a result of, in large part of not only Roman mismanagement, but also increasing tensions between the different ethnic groups that were living side by side in most of the towns and cities in the region.

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[Tristan Hughes]

So there are these tensions that start bubbling under the surface just before the revolt begins. And as you've highlighted there, these tensions, they've been there for decades, by the time of 66 AD or CE, and then it's almost an eruption of those tensions.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

That's exactly right. In fact, our friend Alexander the Great in many ways was responsible for kind of laying the groundwork for all of this. Because until Alexander went through there in 332, basically there were only indigenous peoples living in this area speaking, you know, these Near Eastern languages. And Alexander's wake, his successor, Seleucus, in this area and his successors brought in, you know, a different culture with different practices and traditions. And by the time we get to the middle of the first century ce, these peoples are living side by side in places like Caesarea on the coast, which was probably originally what they call a Phoenician foundation, but had been kind of refounded by, by Herod the Great as a place that had synagogues in it, but also, you know, Greco Roman public buildings and games being celebrated, theaters.

[Tristan Hughes]

And race courses and stuff.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Yes, everything, all the the sort of typical things you would find in a Greek city of the first century. And there developed a conflict and a rivalry over who was going to be kind of in charge of places like Caesarea. Was it going to be the Hellenes, the Greeks, or people who Josephus called Syrians, who are probably non ethnically Greek, but culturally Greek people, or the Jews? And actually that's kind of the exact starting point for the war itself. According to Josephus, that rivalry in Caesarea, it led to a riot over a sacrifice that a Greek guy decided he would make next to a synagogue owned by the Jews. And that was the start of it.

[Tristan Hughes]

Well, yes, guys. So let's explore this trigger point. So you've highlighted that there, these underlying tensions between these different cultural groups and various religions and so on, and that kind of contrast and clashing. So highlight this spark and what happens in Caesarea with this Greek man deciding to, to do this sacrifice outside of a synagogue.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Right. So the background to the, the spark which lit off the, the revolt was this conflict over who was going to be able to say that they were in charge of Caesarea. And essentially both sides were provoking the other, but it got ratcheted up by this attempted sacrifice of birds outside of the synagogue. We don't know exactly what the purpose of the sacrifice was. But of course, it would have been presumably two or four some gods or goddesses, and would have been seen by the Jews as an abomination. And they attempted to get the. The governor, the procurator, this guy guesses, Flores, to intervene. And instead of doing that, he. He sort of took off and went to Jerusalem. And because at the time, apparently the. The Jews were of Judea were in arrears in the payment of the. The tribute to the Romans, he decided that he. What he would do is he would go to the temple treasury and withdraw 17 talents worth of silver, which was an enormous sum of money from the treasury, which was not the procedure that he was supposed to follow. And when the civilian population of Jerusalem protested against that, he unleashed upon them the auxiliary troops that were under his command, and they massacred something like 3,600 civilians. And you know, as I. I tell my students, you know, in. In these situations of ethnic conflict, they tend to be resolvable until large amounts of blood are shed. And it's really at that point in the spring of 66 that ethnic conflict turns into a. A war in Judea centered in Jerusalem.

[Tristan Hughes]

So it is Jerusalem. I can imagine, as you say, news of that spreads far and wide. For instance, in my head, I was thinking similarities with maybe the. The Boston Massacre before the American War of Independence, but I'm not quite sure that quite fits. But maybe in regards to that, that value, well, how information about that is spread across to different groups of Jewish people across the area. And all of a sudden the rebellion, this idea of revolt really takes deep and strong roots.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Exactly. There were among the Jews leaders who tried to convince the population of Jerusalem to not react to what happened and escalate the situation. But I think you're exactly right that the news of what had happened, and I really think for your audience that it's worth thinking about how it is that people would react to having their, you know, their sisters, their brothers, their grandparents, chilled, really without very much provocation. And at that point, I think a lot of people who were kind of sitting on the fence were kind of pushed over to the side of thinking that they really couldn't live with this particular governor. And when the Romans showed no inclination to punish this guy or replace him, I. I think that that's when the people who were in favor of a national liberation movement in Judea gained the upper hand. And that's. That's really the start of the war. Again, Josephus focuses on this episode where after this happens the guy who was the, the head of security in the temple, a man named Eleazar, convinces the priests to no longer accept sacrifices on behalf of Rome, the Romans and Caesar or the emperor. He says that that's really the, the point at which the war begins, but I see that as essentially symbolic. They, they are no longer willing to ask their God to intervene on behalf of the welfare. So this is kind of a separation point. And then the fighting begins shortly afterward.

[Tristan Hughes]

And so you have that spark. And as you said, we go from Caesarea to Jerusalem, and the revolt, you know, seeds of the revolt is really taking root now and spreading far and wide. But of course, for those who decide still to take up arms against the Romans and join this revolt, I'm presuming it's mostly people from the Jewish population. You're still going up against a juggernaut, against the superpower. So you must know sooner or later, the Romans will come for you. So what is their strategy to try and fight the Romans once they've pinned their colors to revolt?

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

It's not clear that during the early days, so spring, early summer of 66, that they had an absolutely coherent strategy. But as soon as the, the dust settles and they realize there's going to be a Roman reaction, they do put together an army. Of course, the Romans, in reaction to what had happened in Jerusalem, send the governor of Syria down to first the Galilee and then to Jerusalem, led by this guy Castius Gallus, with a fairly large army, a substantial army of about 30,000. I don't think that he thought that he was going to have to besiege Jerusalem. I think he thought that he was going to go and intimidate them into acquiescence, but that's not the way it worked out. And his, his army got mauled on the way into Jerusalem and on the way out of Jerusalem, losing, you know, more than 5,300 infantry men and a cohort worth of cavalry men. And that really put the cat among the pigeons, because at that point it was clear that the Jews who were in revolt were going to fight, and they were not intimidated by Roman legions and they could, they could do damage to them. And that was a shock to the Romans.

[Tristan Hughes]

It's a massive shock, isn't it? Because it said this army 30,000. It's not just the local troops that the Jews have been able to manage and overwhelm in Jerusalem. This is an army which would include legionaries, like the best troops the Romans have available, their citizen soldiers. It almost feels like another, dare I say, A Teutoburg Forest kind of thing, where, you know, full sense of security, ambushed, significantly mauled, as you've highlighted there. And almost then the Romans realizing, oh, bleep, you know, this is actually a much more difficult situation. This is a bigger revolt than we actually anticipated, than we imagined.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Right, you're right. There is an analogy with what went on Teutoburg, although the Romans lost a lot more guys in that bald in nine cells. On the other hand, the Jews had been cooperating with the Romans for. For a long time, actually, arguably since even before the time of Julius Caesar. So I'm sure this was a. A huge shock for them. And as a result of that, Nero, the Roman reigning Roman emperor, felt compelled to give the. The portfolio, the job of quelling what was clearly at this point a nationalist revolt over to another general, this guy Vespasian, who was a very experienced general. And it took Vespasian about a year or so so into the winter of 67 to put together a much larger army, an army which ultimately comprised about 60,000 soldiers, again divided up into legionaries, allies and auxiliaries. But just so that people can get an idea the scale of this, you know, although there are kind of differences among the ancient historians, most ancient historians believe that Alexander the Great went over to asia minor in 334 with like 40 or 45,000 soldiers. So this was a massive army that Vespasian then brought down into the Galilee in the spring of 67 with the intention of ultimately taking it down to Jerusalem.

[Tristan Hughes]

And Vespasian at this time, a bit of background, context. I always remember him because he's. He's an officer when the Romans invade Britain more than 20 years earlier. He's got a lot of experience. He's. Well, I guess maybe not near the heart of Nero's regime, but he's an important figure. And has he had to journey? You mentioned it takes over a year for him to prepare and get this massive army to invade Judea. Has he come from elsewhere in the empire to get to the eastern provinces?

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Right. He was actually with Nero, who was on a concert tour in ikea. So he didn't have that go. He was in Greece. He was an interesting character. You know, his reputation, both at the time and among modern ancient historians, has always been sort of as a competent, if somewhat intellectually dull officer. But in fact, I think it masks that reputation, masks a more complex character, including a character of some degree of sort of ruthlessness and cruelty as well as he would prove pretty rapidly once he led the invasion force into the, the Galilee. And so there's a war in the north in 67, in the spring of 67. And the two big sort of flashpoints were Jotapata, which we talked about a little bit before, where Josephus was the commander conquered by the Romans after, you know, a siege which lasted somewhere between, you know, 38 to 47 days. And then up on the Golan Heights at Gamla, another siege. And just to link this up a little bit with what I had to say about this spasion, so Gamla is one of these places that's built up on a ridge with the high point where the ultimate defense of the Jews took place. And when the Romans finally pushed their way up there and, and conquered it, they just massacred everybody there and including the women and children. Josephus, who's often accused of being a kind of, you know, a frontman for his Roman masters, takes the time to point out that the Romans chucked over the side of the cliff all the babies that they found and everything. So, so there are some details in Josephus accounts of the war which shows that, you know, Josephus, despite those issues that we have to think about when we use him as a source, didn't just whitewash what happened in this war. And he's critical of Roman leadership in different times in the war.

[Tristan Hughes]

It's quite similar to the vivid descriptions we have of the, the final fall of Carthage and that very, very Bruce and bloody eradication of the Carthaginian population. But with that. So Vespasian, with this large army, he's taken those key strongholds in the north in Galilee, you know, defeated Josephus at Jotapata. The Jewish faction opposing them in this war as they've seen this new Roman army arrive, it's huge and it's gaining success as it's creeping its way towards Jerusalem. Is there anxiety in the Jewish ranks? I've got in my notes here there's almost an internal civil war that erupts around this time in Jerusalem.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Right. So from the very beginning, even before the outbreak of the revolt within Jerusalem, there were very deep divisions among the population. And once the revolt broke out, there definitely were strong opinions held by people about the wisdom of continuing the war or negotiating with the Romans. But as I said, after the shedding of so much civilian blood, the groups people often focus upon the Sicarii, the so called the dagger men, the Sicarii and the Zealots really kind of gained the upper hand, especially the Zealots in Jerusalem. Interestingly, they were kind of Undeterred by what happened in the Galilee, they were committed, and we have some evidence which is a little bit difficult to interpret, but is still, I think, vital for understanding attitudes at the time within Jerusalem. So as soon as these rebel groups got in charge In Jerusalem in 66, they started minting coins which have on them sort of slogans about their, their goals. And in the third and fourth year of the war, when, you know, it's obvious what's going to happen, which is it's either going to be Vespasian or after the suicide of Nero, and Vespasian decides to pursue his future back in Rome, it turns out to be Titus. The groups in, in Jerusalem are having inscribed on those coins for the freedom of Zion. Freedom of Zion. So, you know, there's a lot of talk to go back to your original question about, you know, the resonances of this war. A lot of people talk these days and comment on the origins of Zionism. But, you know, Zion and Zionism go back, in fact, to this time period and even before it was a hill in Jerusalem. But Zion is also an idea of the people. So the short answer to your question is that these people in 67 and 68 and 69 were fighting among themselves in Jerusalem, but there was a huge level of commitment to actually achieving independence from Rome, no matter what the cost was. So that's why, even though they realized that Vespasian was coming for them, they were undeterred.

[Tristan Hughes]

The hardliners are very much at the seat of power in Jerusalem at that time, aren't they? They're determined to keep fighting. And it seems like the Vespasian steamroller is going to get closer and closer to Jerusalem. You hinted at it there, guy, that actually it's Titus who will get to Jerusalem. And quite briefly, before we explore the siege of Jerusalem, what's this always this brief hiatus which forces Vespasian to leave the scene, and ultimately it's Titus, his son, who will continue the war.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Right. So within Rome, of course, there were massive problems. Nero's reign really changed dramatically after the fire in Rome in 64 war, which just thoroughly destroyed three districts of Rome and seven others, and was one of the reasons why Nero put the squeeze on people to get their tribute monies in on time in the provinces. In some sense, Nero never recovered from that. And with the, with the outbreak of the revolt, which didn't go well for the Romans in the very beginning, his popularity was deteriorating. And there were, there were plenty of influential romans around after 66 who had thoughts of trying to get rid of Nero. And so eventually, after rebellions by some of the governors up in the the Rhine Danube border areas of the Roman Empire, Nero committed suicide. And that led to a struggle, a succession struggle in 68, 69, famously called the Year of the Four Emperors, Nero's replacements. And this vision, as it were, turned out to be the last man standing, in part because the Syrian legions and the legions in Egypt threw their weight behind him. And so instead of pursuing a risky siege of Jerusalem, Vespasian decided to kind of hold off and eventually make his way to Rome. And he delegated finishing the Judean war to his son Titus. So it was left to titus in 2H69 and then the beginning of 70 to go to Jerusalem and to conduct that siege.

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[Tristan Hughes]

Foreign so we've got now to the siege of Jerusalem Guy, what happens with the siege of Jerusalem? This feels like the pinnacle, the climax to this whole revolt with the Romans, tens of thousands of Romans laying outside Jerusalem's very, very strong walls and those very determined defenders within.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Right. So in a sense this was kind of a replay of what had happened earlier in the war when the the governor Kasis Gallus came down to try to intimidate the Jews into into quitting. The difference was that that Titus knew that this was a siege operation which was going to require siege equipment and also even more importantly, planning for supply, for, for logistics. Because he had to, you know, feed the Roman army there over months, he knew that to be the case. So the Romans had to break through the three sets of walls, and it turned out to be an incredibly difficult task. And nowhere in Josephus's multiple accounts of this does he give us Roman casualty figures. And I've always suspected that the reason for that was that they were quite high. Interestingly, descriptions of the combat, it often turns out to be the case that the rebels kind of out fight the Romans. But the Romans did what the Romans always did, which was to use their superior organization and their technical abilities.

[Tristan Hughes]

The siege machinery, yes, catapults, the siege.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Machinery, to kind of batter their way through the walls, clear the defenders from them, establish camps, then move on. Eventually it became kind of a, a numbers game and then a supply game within the city itself. And essentially the, the defenders were running out of food. Unfortunately, from the point of view of, of the rebels, in some sense, the siege and conquest of, of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple by the end of August was kind of the denouement or the, the inevitable outcome of the strategy which the rebels had adopted from the very beginning of the war, which was knowing that the Romans were coming to sort of back themselves into strongly defended places. And in my book, I argue. Easy for me to say, and I say this humbly, easy for me to say, but I think that that was probably not a wise strategy because it kind of guaranteed that they would draw the Romans to these fortified places. And the most fortified place, of course, was Jerusalem. So in the end, it wasn't an accident that the war ended with the siege and then the burning down of the Temple itself at the end of August.

[Tristan Hughes]

It's interesting guy, isn't it? Because I always remember that famous painting which shows Romans, it looks like they were the catapult or something, and they're at the walls of a gate. And it's a very kind of, dare I say, romantic, but very artistic portrayal of the siege Jerusalem. But I also know historically, you know, those walls, layers of walls in Jerusalem, the Romans fighting their way through each layer. And then one of the great legacies of Herod the Great, alongside the temple which we'll get to was, I think it's at the entrance to Temple Mount or around the area, they had a strong fortress called the Antonia Fortress. Correct, very strong. An important stronghold for those last defenders. But once the Romans ultimately breach that stronghold, the Antonia Fortress, named after Mark Anthony Then they're up on Temple Mount. And is it this picture of those last few rebels fighting in the Temple itself? Is that like defending the last great building right at the center of Jerusalem? Is that kind of the end of the siege, those last few fighters there?

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

It's the end of the Temple and the defense of the Temple. But in fact it's not the end of the siege of Jerusalem. It's a horrible scene. I mean, reading Josephus description of it, it's a terrible thing. But there were rebels who survived even the destruction of the Temple and continued to fight in Jerusalem itself, both above ground and actually below ground as well. So they did keep on fighting. So the siege went on in Jerusalem and Titus kind of unleashed his soldiers against the. Their surviving civilian population of Jerusalem. And there were several more massacres within the city itself. You raised the issue of the analogy with Carthage before. I think it's a pretty good analogy. I think that we do have to imagine something like that at the end with a war, as it were, against the civilian population, many of whom would not have wanted to be there in the first place.

[Tristan Hughes]

A bloody, brutal end to the siege of Jerusalem. How significant is the destruction and the sacking of the Temple of Jerusalem by the Romans?

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Massively important. This is the destruction of the center of the sacrificial cult of the. The Jews. In fact, there were other temples, but they weren't recognized by the. The priestly authorities. And there's a huge amount of controversy among ancient historians about whether the Romans intentionally burned down the Temple or not. But one thing that I think people should keep in mind is that after the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem, when Vespasian found out that there were Sicarii who were fomenting resistance in Egypt as well, he ordered one of those kind of alternative satellite temples there in a place called Leontopolis, also to be destroyed. Which is a sign that he wanted to eradicate the sacrificial cult of the Jews. He wanted to do it. So. So I think that this was a. A massive event obviously in the history of the Jews. And I'm sure some of your audience members will know that after the destruction of the Temple, Jewish scholars who had either escaped from Jerusalem or relocated to Yavne afterward on the coast, then spent literally hundreds of years debating what the significance of the destruction of the Temple was. So it becomes incredibly important in, in Jewish history, but also the histories of Rome and, and Christianity. So in Rome, although Josephus and his works tries to argue that his friend Titus didn't want to destroy the temple. We have several monuments and inscriptions in Rome in which Titus and Vespasian were quite happy to be bragging about the way that they had destroyed Jerusalem, which includes the temple, of course. So you can't have it both ways. So this becomes the support and the justification for the Flavian dynasty of Vespasian and Titus and Domitian changes the history of Rome. And then unfortunately, in the third and fourth centuries, Christian writers make the case that the destruction of the temple was kind of punishment for the Jews executing Jesus. And you know, that very unfortunate, untrue and unfortunate slur goes on for literally hundreds and hundreds of years and sort of poisons relations. And we're still living with the consequences of that. Alas.

[Tristan Hughes]

Absolutely. I will mention quickly one of those monuments that you've highlighted in Rome boasting about kind of the Roman destruction of the temple, which is the famous Arch of Titus, isn't it, in the Roman Forum, which shows those soldiers bringing back and presuming it's the treasures from the temple, including the famous Menorah, there is so much gold, so much wealth stored in the temple that the Romans sack and bring back to Rome. And if my memory serves me correctly, there's also that line of thought with the Copper scroll, one of the Dead Sea Scrolls that the treasure is referring to is treasure that may have been taken out of the temple. The truth of that. Well, we cover in another podcast episode, so check that one out too. Should also mention that that Arch of Titus, the famous Arch of Titus, it is showing on it that the kind of the looting of the second temple in its destruction by the Romans at the pinnacle of the great Jewish revolt.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

That's exactly right. And not only that, but some of the treasures taken from the temple were, were displayed by Vespasian in a kind of horrible museum of things looted from peoples in the, in the Roman Empire. And we know now that in the Flavian amphitheater are actually outside of it, there was at least one inscription, probably more, which claimed that the, the amphitheater had been built from the spoils of this war. So as I say to my students, you know, when you go to Rome and, and the, the amphitheater or Coliseum is the most visited archaeological site in Italy. Tens of millions of people every year. It is Rome. It's the metonym for Rome. Everyone that goes to Rome has a picture taken in front of that. It's a war memorial, but it's a triumphant memorial over the Jews. And I also, when I go there, which I do all the time I always think to myself, you know, Rome had a large Jewish population at the time, in the late first century. And, you know, every day they would be walking by this memorial to the eradication of, of their sanctuary and their defeat in war. And I asked my students to think about what the implications of that are historically. And there was a third, a third monument as well, in the Circus Maximus, another place that had tens of millions of people pass through it from antiquity into the. The medieval period in which Titus was celebrated for destroying Jerusalem and falsely claiming that he was the first one ever to capture it. So the Flavian dynasty used this war as its primary claim to fame and power.

[Tristan Hughes]

Naturally, there is almost an addendum you can do to the great Jewish revolt, which is that last stand at Masada with the Sicarii. We have done two episodes on Masada, on the ancients, with Professor Jodi Magnus in the past, so we won't explore that in detail today. I think to end this episode, Guy, I'll just kind of bring it back to the start. The great significance of this revolt, not just in Roman minds, not just in Jewish minds back in antiquity, for hundreds of years following it, but also its importance down to the present day. This is a revolt that has endured in the minds particularly of Jews ever since antiquity.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

That's exactly right. And there is no, no evidence that in any way the story and then the memory of what happened is going away. This is an inflection point, I believe, in human history. I think it's the most significant event of the first century and one with a. The greatest historical consequences, the end of which we have not yet seen. And that's both kind of a challenge, but also a little bit humbling for all of us who are involved in it, because people are invested in this story and its significance in a way that they are not for any other event in antiquity that, that I know of. This story, as I say, is not over. When you go to Jerusalem and you go to the so called Western Wall, which is really part of the retaining wall for the Temple Mount that Herod had built, you're aware that you are at an active religious site. This is not like going to the Temple of Artemis in Ephesus and seeing a column from that temple there, one lonely column. We are, we are in a sense, part of this story still. And I think that that's why it has so much purchase and draws so much attention to this day.

[Tristan Hughes]

Guy, this has been a fantastic chat. Last but certainly not least, your book on this topic which explores it in even more detail. It is called.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

It's called for the Freedom of Zion.

[Tristan Hughes]

Brilliant Guy. It just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.

[Dr. Guy MacLean Rogers]

Oh, thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.

[Tristan Hughes]

Well, there you go. There was Dr. Guy McLean Rogers talking you through the story of the Great Jewish Revolt. If you want to learn more about the events that followed the fall of Jerusalem, particularly the Siege of Masada, well, you can listen to two further ancient episodes we recorded on that very topic with Dr. Jodi Magnus. They are called Besieging Masada the first part and Myths of Masada the second part. Two great interviews there from a few years ago. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Ancients. Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour. Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hits podcasts ad free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you [e-mail] subscribe that's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.

[Unknown]

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[Tristan Hughes]

Brad, you're on mute.

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