The Kushan Empire

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ancients - The Kushan Empire

Introduction

In the June 12, 2025 episode of The Ancients, hosted by Tristan Hughes from History Hit, the spotlight is on the enigmatic Kushan Empire. Joined by renowned historian and author William Dalrymple, the episode delves deep into the rise, cultural achievements, religious influences, and eventual decline of this pivotal yet often overlooked ancient superpower that spanned Central Asia and Northern India.

Origins of the Kushan Empire

Tristan Hughes opens the discussion by tracing the origins of the Kushan Empire to the first century BC in Bactria, present-day Afghanistan. He recounts how, over the previous century, Greek overlords had dominated the region, only to be displaced by nomadic invaders from the Central Asian steppes who established the Kushan dynasty along the fertile Oxus River.

William Dalrymple emphasizes the obscurity of the Kushans in modern historical discourse, stating, “They are very little known. I think it's fair to say that most people who are not Indian ancient history buffs are likely to have heard of them at all.” ([06:26])

Cultural and Artistic Achievements

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the rich artistic legacy of the Kushan Empire, particularly their contributions to sculpture and coinage. Dalrymple highlights the abundance of Kushan art discovered in northern India, especially in the city of Mathura. He notes, “They've produced more sculpture than any other ancient Indian peoples.” ([07:02])

The discussion touches upon the distinctive Gandharan art, which seamlessly blends Greek classical aesthetics with Buddhist themes. Dalrymple explains how these artistic innovations not only shaped local culture but also influenced regions as far west as Egypt and as far east as Japan. However, he laments the loss of archaeological context due to unscientific excavations and looting, which have left much of the Kushan art heritage fragmented and disconnected from its origins.

Religious Influence and Buddhism

The Kushan Empire played a crucial role in the development and spread of Buddhism. Dalrymple and Hughes explore how the Kushans facilitated the transformation of Buddhism from an aniconic to an iconic religion, introducing the first anthropomorphic images of the Buddha. Dalrymple articulates the complexity of this transition, detailing the scholarly debates surrounding the origins of Buddha's image:

“In the first century in the Kushan kingdom, we get the Buddha image that we know today taking form for the first time.” ([29:29])

The episode also delves into the syncretic religious landscape of the Kushan Empire, where Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Persian beliefs coexisted and influenced each other. Dalrymple points out the fluidity of religious boundaries, noting that the same sculptural workshops produced images revered by multiple faiths, leading to deeply porous religious iconography.

Economic and Trade Connections

The Kushan Empire was a linchpin in the vast network of ancient trade routes, connecting the Roman Empire, Persia, China, and India. Dalrymple describes the Kushans' strategic control over key trade hubs, facilitating the exchange of goods, ideas, and cultural practices across Eurasia. He highlights the empire’s role in the Silk Road trade, emphasizing the movement of not only commodities like silk and spices but also cultural and religious influences.

Notably, Dalrymple mentions the discovery of Kushan textiles in Xiongnu burials in Mongolia and Buddhist artifacts in Egyptian sites like Berenice, underscoring the extensive reach of Kushan trade networks. He remarks, “The Huns are actually the middlemen between the Chinese and the Kushans.” ([46:31])

Decline and Legacy

The decline of the Kushan Empire is attributed to external pressures from the rising Sasanian Empire and internal fragmentation. Dalrymple outlines how the Sasanians successfully defeated the Kushan king Vasudeva I around 240 AD, leading to the loss of Afghan territories and the eventual rise of successor dynasties. This transition paved the way for the Gupta Empire, which succeeded the Kushans as a dominant power in India.

Dalrymple reflects on the relative obscurity of the Kushans in both Western and Indian historical narratives, arguing that their significant contributions merit greater recognition. He states, “We've slightly overdone the importance of the Guptas, and we've slightly underdone the importance of the Kushans, who I think deserve more recognition than they currently have.” ([60:00])

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Dalrymple promoting his book, "The Golden Road: How Ancient India Transformed the World," which offers a more comprehensive exploration of the Kushan Empire and its enduring legacy. Tristan Hughes reiterates the importance of understanding the Kushans to fully grasp the cultural and historical tapestry of ancient Eurasia.

Notable Quotes

• William Dalrymple ([06:26]):

  “They are very little known. I think it's fair to say that most people who are not Indian ancient history buffs are likely to have heard of them at all.”

• William Dalrymple ([07:02]):

  “They've produced more sculpture than any other ancient Indian peoples.”

• William Dalrymple ([29:29]):

  “In the first century in the Kushan kingdom, we get the Buddha image that we know today taking form for the first time.”

• William Dalrymple ([46:31]):

  “The Huns are actually the middlemen between the Chinese and the Kushans.”

• William Dalrymple ([60:00]):

  “We've slightly overdone the importance of the Guptas, and we've slightly underdone the importance of the Kushans, who I think deserve more recognition than they currently have.”

Final Thoughts

This episode of The Ancients provides a compelling and in-depth look at the Kushan Empire, shedding light on its pivotal role in shaping ancient Eurasian history. Through insightful discussions with William Dalrymple, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the Kushans' cultural, religious, and economic contributions, as well as the reasons behind their historical obscurity. For enthusiasts eager to explore further, Dalrymple’s forthcoming book promises an extensive examination of these transformative times.

Transcript

[Tristan Hughes]

Hi, I'm Tristan Hughes and if you would like the Ancients ad free, get early access and bonus episodes. Sign up to History Hit with the History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my recent documentary all about Petra and the Nabateans and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.

[William Dalrymple]

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[Tristan Hughes]

Hello everyone. I hope you're all well. We're all good@ancients HQ just finished recording 3 ancient episodes in a row. So now just out for a quick walk now for today's episode, we have received quite a few comments asking us to do more episodes on ancient Central Asia and India in particular. I remember receiving an email from an ancient listener. Her name was Brianna. And Brianna, she's been listening to the podcast for more than a year and a half and she suggested that we do an episode all about the Kashan empire. Well, it's taken a bit of time, but Brianna, I'm delighted to say we're now making that episode a reality. It's the first century BC and a new power has risen to prominence in Central Asia in the land known as Bactria, present day Afghanistan. Over the previous century, Greek overlords had ruled here. But no longer. Hailing from the great steppe in Central Asia, nomadic invaders had swept Westwards and ultimately settled in Bactria, establishing their own kingdom along the fertile banks of the Oxus River. We know it today as the Kushan Empire, named after its ruling dynasty. Over time, this empire would expand across the Hindu Kush into Northern India, reaching as far as the Gangetic Plain. Both sides of the Hindu Kush became connected under one empire. The story of the Kushan Empire is that of an ancient superpower at the center of Eurasia, with connections to Rome, Persia, China, the steppe, and India. And yet so much of its story remains shrouded in mystery. Today on the Ancients, we're giving you an introduction to the enigmatic Kushan Empire, exploring themes such as their extensive trade connections, their strong links to Buddhism, and potentially to famous ancient Indian epics like the Mahabharata. As for our guest, well, I was delighted to welcome back to the podcast the one and only William Dalrymple cbe, renowned historian, writer, and a host of the popular history podcast Empire. William has recently written a groundbreaking book all about ancient India and. And how it was at the center of the ancient world. It was great to catch up with William again. He is a good friend of the podcast. He's a lovely man, and I really do hope you enjoy this episode all about the Kushan Empire. William, what a pleasure. Great to have you back on the podcast.

[William Dalrymple]

Very nice to be back in this country and very nice to see your swaggy studio.

[Tristan Hughes]

Tristan.

[William Dalrymple]

Each time I come, I get more podcast envy. Never before, though, have I gone to the bathroom in summer with a silver, silver lame loose seat, which is something that only the ancients can afford with their spectacular success.

[Tristan Hughes]

You're right. And I did demand. I did demand that as long with.

[William Dalrymple]

You need a Silver Lucy.

[Tristan Hughes]

Yes, but we're talking about something a bit different today than the Silver Lucy. We're talking, of course, about the Kushan Empire. Kushan. You say Kushan, do you? That's how you say.

[William Dalrymple]

I say Kushan better than I know it anyway.

[Tristan Hughes]

But. So this feels like I didn't really realize that much about the Kushans. Done a bit about the Greco, Bactrians in the past, Central Asia. It feels like a name little heard of today. And yet they are still really important in the story of ancient Central Asia and of India.

[William Dalrymple]

They are very little known. I think it's fair to say that most people who are not Indian ancient history buffs are likely to have heard of them at all. There are aspects of Kushan culture which are quite widely known, like the Gandharan Buddha, these beautiful, very classical looking figures of the Buddha with very classical Greek or Roman faces and wearing martins or togas. And these exist in the great museums of the world. So anyone in Paris or London or anywhere that has one of the major international collections will recognize these things. But the name of the dynasty under which these were produced, the Kushans are not widely known. And even in India, which is the place they're probably best known, they're one of the least recognised moments in Indian history, partly because, like anywhere in the world, history is often written on a fairly nationalistic basis. And the Kushans are seen in modern India, as far as they're known at all, as incomers, not as sons of the soil. So they don't appear much in Indian textbooks and they, you know, are virtually absent from popular perceptions of the past, but they're incredibly important. And more and more archaeology is appearing both within India, Pakistan and Afghanistan, but also in places like Egypt and Rome, where it's showing the much greater impact the Kushans had outside South Asia and Central Asia. And, well, we'll talk about all the different things they did, but they're a hugely important and very little known part of ancient history.

[Tristan Hughes]

We are going to talk through all those things, but you mentioned the art there and it feels important to highlight that straight away, because we are, after this chat together, we're going off to the British Museum to their new Ancient India exhibition, in which they have some examples of Kushan art. So art of Kushan origins has been discovered in abundance in northern India.

[William Dalrymple]

So one of the odd things is that although the Kushan name, as I said, in India, is not, you know, the most prominent of ancient dynasties, arguably they've produced more sculpture than any other ancient Indian peoples. There are vast quantities of Kushana, much of it coming out of one particular city, Matra, which we'll be talking more about. Matra, again, a place little known outside India in India, known associated with the Krishna myths and the. It's the place where in the Mahabharata, Krishna's people are from the Adavas. But it's one of the richest archaeological sites in ancient India. And so much of what is central to Indian art, mythology, history, derives from innovative practices in art, in religion, in the depiction of divinity that happened in this one city. And what's incredibly irritating is that because it yielded so much beautiful sculpture, a lot of it quite sort of sexy, voluptuous women, which we're going to talk again about later, but a lot of it, these very striking male figures, whether Jain or Buddhist or Hindu because these things were so readily excavated, it was one of the first places where amateur archaeologists of the Raj sort of just dug holes and just sort of dragged up sculpture, which has meant that a lot of the main Kushan sites were basically wrecked by very unscientific archaeological methods in the 1860s, 70s and 80s, through to about the 1910s. Then, more recently, the other great center of Kushan culture, which is Afghanistan, has been also looted and unscientifically dug by looters looking for things to export to art galleries and dealers around the world. So they are, of all the ancient peoples in India, perhaps the ones that have produced the most stuff, but most of it coming without strict archaeological stratification. Often we don't know where, you know, great masterpieces came from, beyond, beyond a region. So, you know, Gandhara is as good as we can do. The Peshawar Valley, or Matra, the wider Matra region. And the chronology, the stratigraphy, the history of these regions is very unclear even now. And yet the quantity of important materials and the fact that so many ideas that will travel the world, images of the buja that are found as far west as Egypt, as far east as Japan, are derived from innovations made in matura, and yet we don't know the sequencing, we don't know the stratigraphy, and it's all a bit of a mess, but it's also a bit of a mystery, which is why it's quite fun to talk about it and speculate.

[Tristan Hughes]

It feels like the Kushans, although you have all of this art, and it sounds also like actually the antiquities market, you know, quite infamous antiquities market. Things are coming up from there as well because of these. These illegal excavations that are happening in those kind of heartland regions. Does it feel like at the same time, although we have this, quite a lot of archeology and art, are they still quite a mysterious people? Do we have many sources for them?

[William Dalrymple]

So we have very few. As I say, there are few dynasties in ancient India which have produced more in terms of material remains or artistic remains. But in terms of scientifically dug archaeological sites, there's some pretty good archaeology that happened in Afghanistan in the 1970s. There are a few documentary references in Chinese chronicles, but the Chinese are about two empires along. So they're reported. They're reporting the Kushans, in their earliest incarnation are the enemies of the Chinese. Enemies. And in that sort of endless shuffling of tribes westwards out of the steppe, out of the Tarim Basin, into Afghanistan and down to India, the Kushans are two away from the people who are writing the report. So it's quite hazy. One thing we do have very good evidence of is numismatic coins. Coins. We have spectacularly beautiful coins produced by the Kushan, some of the earliest, a lot of them in gold. So these are things that go very. For a lot of money on the art market. And Spinks has auctions of these things very regularly, which go for more and more each year. So we have the names, but even. I mean, it's only in the last 10 or 15 years that we've really got a safe chronology for the different major Kushan kings. And the biographical details that we know of these people can be written on sort of, you know, two sides of a notepad.

[Tristan Hughes]

We won't do that then, because it will finish very quickly.

[William Dalrymple]

And so it's a funny mixture of things. There are also hints that they help form a lot of the geography of the major Indian epics, particularly in the Mahabharata and the Mahabharata. Although the origins of those stories probably predate the Kushans by centuries, if not millennia, the Mahabharata is reaching its final form at a period of Kushan rule. And the descriptions in the epic often reflect the material culture of the Kushan period, not the ancient, ancient period in which the stories originate. And indeed, the geography that you know. On one hand, you have the northernmost point as Gandhara, where one of the queens of the Mahabharata, Gandhari, comes from. On the other hand, you have Matra, which is where Krishna, another of the central figures of the Mahabharata, comes from. In between that, you have the great capital of Indraprastha, which is probably under Puranakila in the center of Delhi now. And so there's, in every way, the Kushan period seems to be the period when a lot of the iconography, the mythology, the stories crystallize into forms that we recognize today.

[Tristan Hughes]

So let's set the scene then, with how the Kushan Empire ends up controlling not just Afghanistan, but also into northern India as well, and how long ago we're talking now, you mentioned those enemies of the Chinese, which hopefully will get to the word Xiongnu or Hun, then.

[William Dalrymple]

I'm pretty sure exactly that's exactly who we're talking about.

[Tristan Hughes]

So explain then how it goes from these people living further east in Eastern Asia to ultimately forming this great dynasty that is the Kushan Empire.

[William Dalrymple]

So the Xiongnu, or the Huns, people we know quite a lot about, because the Chinese are scared of them and wage war on them. And successfully drive them westwards. And then the Xiongnu drive the Uazi, who are the ancestors of the Kushan, down into Afghanistan.

[Tristan Hughes]

It's almost like a domino effect.

[William Dalrymple]

It's like a domino effect. So the success of the Chinese in moving their Hun problem westwards leads to the Kushans tumbling down through Afghanistan, through Pakistan, through the passes to the Gangetic Plain and the Doab, the region around Delhi today. And we see the Kushans appearing for the first time or at the UAZ as they, as the Chinese know them. They are an Indo European people. So from the very first representations of them, they look like modern Afghans. You know, they're big guys with big noses and big lips. They're not Chinese looking in their feature, they're not Central Asian looking in their features. Their language is Indo European. And archaeologists tend to think that their ancestors are probably these strange characters buried in Tartan in the Tarim Basin, which I know is something you're interested in talking about.

[Tristan Hughes]

Tell me about these tartan buried people in East Asia.

[William Dalrymple]

Well, strictly speaking, we should probably talk about plaid rather than tartan. This is not a lost tribe of the Frasers or the Campbells or even the Stuarts making it to western China. But over the last 30 years, Chinese archaeologists have been finding these extraordinary burials which are a non Chinese people, a non Mongol people, non Turkic people who are occupying territory that is now thoroughly Turkic, the area that the Uyghurs now occupy in western China. And these guys again are quite big, they're often 6ft tall. They bury themselves in this plaid, there's no other word for it, these textiles that have cross patch colored textiles which are actually not dissimilar to tartan reds and blues that could easily find themselves on a kilt or a scarf.

[Tristan Hughes]

You as a Scots must absolutely love this.

[William Dalrymple]

I've always loved this. And so these seem to be the people that become at some point known to the Chinese as the Uaz. And they begin to infiltrate into what's now Afghanistan around 150 BC. In other words, a century after the death of Alexander the Great. And in Afghanistan at that time, you still have the battery in Greek cities, though, you know, less than before and less Greek obviously than they were a century earlier. Far more persified, far more Central Asian, far more indigenous. Now look, feeling. And it is the Kushans apparently who overrun these cities, but clearly maintain the irrigation works so that they're moving, they're looting the cities, but they're keeping the water systems going. And we have at Tiliatepe in Afghanistan. And anyone that saw one of the great Afghan treasures show at the British Museum more than a decade ago now will remember those fantastic. It was the climax of the exhibition. These gold cases full of beautiful early sort of semi Hellenistic crowns and sort of almost dew drops of gold falling down in these headdresses. But with them, these royal burials. And you had clearly a point of transition because you have the male figure, the chieftain, who is buried in a sort of in a nomad grave, and he's wearing, you know, Scythian twisting animals of a sort that we're used to on the steppe. But one of his queens has cherubs and erotes in the jewelry and she has a silver coin on her tongue. And so we assume this means she's someone of a Greek princess who marries one of these guys maybe as a diplomatic gesture, and she's putting a coin for the ferryman on her tongue and she's asked to be buried as per her old faith. So there's this moment of transition. And it is in this whole ensemble of burialgas that we find this mysterious very early figure of the Buddha, which has a Sanskrit inscription, he who moves the wheel of law. But it has no relation to any Buddhist iconography that we know of. You have this figure that looks more like Zeus pushing a spiked wheel, that is the wheel of Dharma. So it's a sort of early moment of iconic Buddhism, by which I mean Buddhism with an image of the Buddha as opposed to an Aniconic, a non figurative image, which is something that we'll see is very much the norm in early Buddhism. And it's there in northern Afghanistan. It's there associated with these nomad people, with this nomad jewelry, but with influence a little bit of India and a little bit of Greece. And it's this moment of transition. And the closer that the Kushans then move towards Persia and towards India, the more that their mythological pantheons reflect both those countries. So the first Kushan king we have that has firm dates attached to him is Kujala Kadfais.

[Tristan Hughes]

That's quite a name.

[William Dalrymple]

Quite a name. That's a good name. And he seems in his religious leanings to be more associated with the Persian pantheon. So he has Nanna, the Persian love goddess, on his coins, and he has Osho, the Persian wind God, who then seems to appear with the imagery that we associate with Lord Shiva. He has a bull that looks like Nandi, a trident, which is one of the basic identifiers of Lord Shiva. And in some of the images, he has an erect penis, which is also something which is very clearly associated with Lord Shiva. And it's something that you tend to notice straight away when you look at.

[Tristan Hughes]

The coin, is Lord Shiva, Hindu pantheon.

[William Dalrymple]

So Lord Shiva is Hindu pantheon. And this is the first appearance, as these guys are heading down the passes towards India, of Hindu gods. But interestingly, we don't have much before the Kushans of these Hindu gods. But because early Vedic Hinduism, in the periods before this is Aniconic and Vedic, sacrifices take place on temporary fire altars rather than the sort of temples that we get later. And so, ironically, the Kushans, it's during the Kushan period that we get the first images of Hindu gods, but they're associated with the wrong names. The Greek inscription says Osho, or the Karashti inscription, in some cases people Greek as.

[Tristan Hughes]

So this is one of the fascinating things that I really want to highlight straight away. So, I mean, William, is it the UAG or the Kushans, they come down into Afghanistan. There is elements of Greek culture still there, as you're saying, from the Greco Bactrian kingdom, but lots of local culture as well, and Persian culture. And you've already mentioned that, you know, images of Buddha. Buddhism is already in that area as well.

[William Dalrymple]

One initially, one. Just one stray, extraordinary early image. Okay, so it's that Buddhist image that we probably have.

[Tristan Hughes]

Right, okay, so that's almost the exception. But it's so interesting when they come into this area and almost as nomads, that then they encounter all of these different things like Greek language, these other traditions as well. As you say, it's one of those amazing moments that's this all known about. But when they finally reach that area and encountering all these different things and then how they embrace it in the forming of their kingdom.

[William Dalrymple]

Exactly that. And there's also something very counterintuitive about the effect the Kushans have on this region, because these guys are coming in from what's now Xinjiang, from western China into Afghanistan, pushing down towards the Ganges and the Amuna, towards where Delhi now is. Yet the effect culturally of these guys coming south and unifying both sides of the Himalayas, so that you have one set of rulers who rule both Kashgar beyond the Pamirs, beyond the Himalayas, the Pamirs and the Himalayas themselves, and now the plains of North India, what this does is it opens a floodgate of Indian influence going northwards.

[Tristan Hughes]

Right.

[William Dalrymple]

So even as the Kushan armies are going south, you have Buddhist monks and Indian traders heading north. So contrary to all expectations. It is the southward passage of a nomad people from western China that opens up northern Central Asia and western China to the first Buddhist missionaries coming into that region, and they come in during the Kushan period. You know that feeling when you clear your inbox or end a meeting early or finally check your pipeline and everything's actually under control? That's what Monday CRM feels like. It's fast, easy to use, and with built in AI it helps you move faster without the busy work. Try it [e-mail] CRM because sales should feel this good. High interest debt is one of the toughest opponents you'll face unless you power up with a Sofi personal loan. A Sofi personal loan could repackage your bad debt into one low fixed rate monthly payment. It's even got super speed since you could get the funds as soon as the same day you sign. Visit sofi.compower to learn more. That's sofi.com p o w E R Loans originated by Sofi Bank NA member FDIC terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891 hello friends old and new. Do you like video games? Do you like interviews with industry insiders? Do you like stupidity? I'm Jess Pardue, host of the brand new podcast Stupid Little Games. Every other week I sit down with various members of the gaming industry, from CEOs of AAA studios to indie devs shipping their very first title. We chat about our current gaming obsessions, we tell stories from projects past or present, and then we play a stupid little game that I've written specifically for each guest. So search for Stupid Little games wherever you get your podcast. See you next Tuesday.

[Tristan Hughes]

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[William Dalrymple]

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[Tristan Hughes]

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[William Dalrymple]

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[Tristan Hughes]

It almost feels like it of a U turn as well if I'm thinking about in the map. So it's kind of going west and then south. So yeah.

[William Dalrymple]

So suddenly you're getting these extraordinary sites in Afghanistan, these remarkable early Buddhist monasteries in places like. Well, a very important site that ancient listeners would greatly enjoy exploring at a place I had great privilege of visiting just before the Taliban took over and before everything closed down is a remarkable Kushan site called Mezainak. And Mezainak is incredibly important. It's about three hours drive from Kabul. If you leave, you know, just before early breakfast in Kabul, you can be there before lunch at this site. And the site is now threatened for the same reason that the monks first went there, which is it's sitting on the biggest copper deposit in Central Asia. And the monks seem to have literally coined it, that they excavated it, turned it into coins. They had mints there. And one of the things we learn about early Buddhism, which is counterintuitive and surprising, is that today, when you think of Buddhist monks, you tend to think of them as otherworldly figures. Hollywood identifies the Tibetan as this sort of mystic figure, floating, often levitating in sort of Marvel movies, Dr.

[Tristan Hughes]

Strange and stuff like that.

[William Dalrymple]

Exactly, exactly that. But in reality, Buddhism is a religion that appealed to merchants and which existed in a very capitalist world. The Buddhist monks, we know from inscriptions were lending money. In fact, they were effectively the first bankers in South Asia. They often cite their monasteries on mineral deposits. Mezianak is on copper. I was visiting early Buddhist sites in Malaysia in the autumn, which are on iron ore. And the monks were using this. Other regions where they're not on mineral deposits, they are important in the textile trade. And you have Buddhist nuns making cotton, for example, in Gujarat and in Andhra Pradesh. And we have an inscription from another very early Buddhist monastery in Andhra Pradesh which talks about. Which gives some very nice biographical detail of the sort of people where. Who are using these monasteries. And there's a guy who identifies himself as a Mahanavika, which is Sanskrit for a great sailor. And he has traveled, I think, to what's now Malaysia, to the Bujang Valley on a trading expedition. And he comes back and he repays the monks the loan that they've made, and this is why it's recorded. He puts up inscriptions basically saying, I've paid my debt to you. But on the way we learn that A, he's a sailor and B, that his father was a rice farmer. So we have two generations of family. We have a rice farmer who produces a great navigator. And it's very clear that all the way along these trade routes, these early Buddhist monasteries, as well as being centers of Indic civilization, they're bringing into Central Asia not only the Buddhist philosophy, but with it a whole set of Indian ideas about time being circular Yugas and so on. We have ideas of geography involving Jambudvipa languages such as Prakrit and Sanskrit. So you have these Buddhist monasteries where rich merchants are sheltering, like the later caravanserais. Their thick walls and sort of fortified position at the top of a valley is not just good against invaders. It also obviously protects traders who've got valuable goods, they are apparently borrowing from the monks. And maybe we can imagine depositing their gold with the monks. Maybe the way that not only Indic civilization and Indian religions such as Buddhism and philosophies, but also early mercantile capitalism is spreading up into this region. Coin production is associated with the Kashans at this time. So we have, we have early use of coins. The most extraordinary question is the whole question of how in these monasteries at this point in the first, second, third century A.D. now you have the first appearance of the Buddha image. And the big academic debate, which is still unsettled and people evidence emerges, which shifts the debate every few years, is at what point does these Aniconic religions, Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism, which initially do not represent their saviors and deities except through symbols such as a sacred tree, a throne, an umbrella, a flaming pillar, in the case of Buddhism, a stupa. Suddenly in the first century this gives ways to the Buddha image.

[Tristan Hughes]

Well, let's kind of follow on from there. So by that time, by the first century ad, the Pamirs, the Hindu Kush, is no longer a boundary. It's the spine of the Kushan Empire expanded. Thank you. I've been thinking about that all the time. They expanded into northern India as well. So Afghanistan on one side, northern India on the other. And we'll get a bit more to Mathura in a bit. But how does this spread? How does this emergence of the Kushan empire, do you think that contributes and is critical to, to that big transition in those religions to then actually showing the gods and the Buddha in human form?

[William Dalrymple]

So this is, this is a great scholarly debate. So there's, there's two or three different views. The first view is that there are these pre existing cults of nature spirits, tree spirits called Yakshas, the male ones, who are shown as sort of big hefty sumo wrestler types with big tummies with often sort of highly developed muscular forms. And some of the images are very big. There's one at a place called Parkham, it's about sort of 12 foot tall. I mean these are big, big images of big deities. They often hold medicine, weapons and money. They have money bags and they have a female counterpart called Yakshis who are these sort of super curvy voluptuous images again do very well on the market. And you see a lot of these now in museums and in sale rooms across the world.

[Tristan Hughes]

And you talked about one of those actually in our last chat with the Romans and India, how there is actually a mosaic in Sicily which Shows one.

[William Dalrymple]

Exactly, that this Roman image personification of India is based on a Kushan Yakshi image. There's one nice detail of that, is that one of the points of the Yakshis, the female Yaksha, that they are symbols of fertility, hence why they're voluptuous, hence why they're symbols of sort of sexuality and fecundity. And the way this is expressed in the image of Yaksh is that they either hold onto a branch or they kick the bough of the tree and the tree bursts into flower. Now this is, weirdly enough, an image that exists through all of Indian art. Having started with the Kushans, it reappears in Rajputta, then later in Mughal art and even in Rajput paintings of the 18th, 19th centuries. You see this image of this beautiful girl touching a tree or so or whatever. Now in the Roman version of that, they haven't understood what's going on. So they get the fact that she's voluptuous and so she's got all the curvy bits, but they haven't understood that the point is that she's holding onto the tree because the tree, the moment she touches the tree, the tree bursts into flower. She's just holding a tree in the Roman. But if in her, the equivalent images that come out of Matra and the workshops of the southern Kushan area, wherever she touches there's a bloom and a huge lotus flower appears. Gorgeous thing. So the different theories are that it was out of these nature spirits that early Buddhists took the image of the Buddha. And in Matura, the early figures of Buddha are these sort of big heavy guys. I mean, we think of the Buddha as, you know, this, this sort of small ethereal figure, cross legged, locked in meditation. But the earliest images we have of him in the southern part of the Kushan area have him as this sort of nightclub bouncer kind of figure, looking like someone you wouldn't want to be mountain to. No, exactly. And then the second theory is it's not Buddhism at all. That the first time that these savior figures are depicted in stone, iconically as a human figure, is actually the Jains. And there's quite a lot of evidence that's true. There's one or two very early Jain figures that may well predate anything Buddhist. The third theory, which is the one that the Victorians latched onto when they first started discovering these gorgeous Gandharan Buddha images in the Hindu Kush, is it's the influence of the ancient Greeks that somehow the Hellenistic spell stayed in these Mountains. And that when the Greeks converted to Buddhism, as the Victorians saw it, the Victorians were reading too much Kipling, the Man who Would Be King, all this sort of stuff that suddenly they change from this Aniconic image of the Buddha as a pair of feet or a throne or a stupa. Suddenly he becomes a Greek Buddha in a toga, looking like a Caesar or something. And in fact, in my book the Golden Road, I place an image of Augustus next to one of these early Gandharan bodhisattvas. And the folds of the, of the clothes are almost identical in a very intriguing way. So however it happened, and whatever the order, and there is no scholarly final consensus on this, in the first century in the Kushan kingdom, we get the Buddha image that we know today taking form for the first time. But as if that's not enough, at the same time we get the first images of Lord Shiva, Lord Vishnu, Krishna, Balaram. Tonight, when you and I go to the British Museum to see the ancient India show, there's an amazing, very early image of Balaram, who in time will become the brother of Krishna in the Mahabharata. But at this point seems to be a sort of self propelling deity with a plough, a kind of a sort of figure of fertility. And he has, he's sheltered by a hooded cobra. So he's related to these early Naga snake cults. So all this we're used to sort of, you know, trying to classify these religious boundaries and say, this is Buddhist, this is Jain, this is animist. But clearly you have all these religions living cheek by jowl in a city like Mathura or in the Gandhara Valley. Clearly same sculptural workshops are working for patrons who could be Jain or could be Buddhist or could be animist. And in the way that polytheists often did in the Roman Empire and the Greek Empire, the same images can be read by people of different faith as different gods. So while a Persian may see this tall image of a man with a bull holding a trident as Osho, the Indian will see him as Lord Shiva. So we just don't know enough to place the boundaries between these images. And the images are deeply porous between.

[Tristan Hughes]

Different faiths, so it's interesting. So you said there's not one religion and these sculptures of different religions in places like Matura, do we know whether certain Kushan rulers, did they very much buy into it, or is it the more local elites who are potentially the ones who are really promoting the spread of these religions and so on? Do we know much about that within the actual the power structures of the Kushan Empire and the people in control?

[William Dalrymple]

So what we see very clearly is that the further south the Kushans move, the more they get influenced by Indian religions. And while the early Kushan kings, who seem to have been based in a particularly souk kotal in central Afghanistan, subscribe to a mixture of ancient Greek and Persian deities, by the time that they're running a lot of their empire from Mathura, which is now in India, they are worshipping first Lord Shiva and then finally the Buddha. And it is ultimately with the greatest of the Kushan kings, Kanishka, who's the only one who's a household name in India today and who's remembered in Buddhist tradition as the man who chaired the fourth Buddhist Council, which is for Buddhism, what I suppose the Council of Nicaea or the Council of Chalcedon is fairly critical.

[Tristan Hughes]

I was literally going to say he almost feels like, and it may be later Buddhist tradition, of course, with the sources being written later, but he almost feels like a Constantine equivalent in how he's portrayed in the sources.

[William Dalrymple]

That's exactly fair comparison. And yet he's 200 years earlier. I mean, Constantine is what, the 315, 3 hundreds, Kanishka, the date that's all associated with him, with him is 127 AD, which is there on a lot of his coins. And in one of Kanishka's coins we have this extraordinary first numismatic appearance of the Buddha looking like a Gandharan Buddha with this familiar now toga figure. And it just says in a Greek script, Bodo, very helpfully underneath it, there it is Bodo, Kanishka on one side, Bodo on the other.

[Tristan Hughes]

The Greek script is still there at the same time.

[William Dalrymple]

So all this stuff is bubbling around together. Mainly they're working in. There's a whole variety of different languages which are being used. But yeah, Greek is one of them. And there is both in terms of language and in terms of religion, this sort of surprising multiplicity and porosity which the Kushan king seemed to employ. But what we have with Kanishka is a very clear image of him himself. There are two famous headless images, one now sadly destroyed, was in the Kabul Museum and that was this sort of figure with an enormous cloak, a Central Asian knee high boots. And then there's a very similar image in the Matra Museum where he's got this club and again the same sort of padded boots and this lovely kaftan with beaded pearl rim on it. And it's only lately that we've had a complete image with kanishka's face appear. And he's wearing this little sort of parthian peaked hat with curls. So he's this big guy with a club and a big nose and big physique.

[Tristan Hughes]

Very heracles, like almost.

[William Dalrymple]

Yeah, a sort of bodybuilder figure. And it's under him that we see, in a sense, the final triumph of buddhism as the religion which at this period seems to win out over the greek cults, over the persian cults, and even over many of the hindu ones. But it doesn't last. It is just this brief moment when buddhism is triumphant.

[Tristan Hughes]

So they've still got greek at this time. There's greek in this inscription.

[William Dalrymple]

But just as you have different gods, often with the same king from what we would regard as competing pantheons. So one day there's a hindu image, there's another one, There's a greek third, there's a persian. So the different languages are there. So bodo seems to be in a debased version of the greek script. But most of the kushan inscriptions are in a language called karoshti.

[Tristan Hughes]

Right.

[William Dalrymple]

Which is a version of aramaic. So aramaic gets as far as afghanistan. We think of it as a language associated with the middle east and the language of Jesus and an early cousin of hebrew. But it's there in inscriptions, you know, in kandahar.

[Tristan Hughes]

It's amazing, isn't it? We've talked quite a bit now about buddhism and religion in the kushan empire, and it seems like there was this kind of great multitude. I'd like to ask a bit about the position. So with the kushan empire at its height, so it stretches from southern uzbekistan to the ganges plain in northern as.

[William Dalrymple]

Far as allahabad, the place where the kumbh mela happens every few years. There was a big kumbh this year.

[Tristan Hughes]

Which I went to, and big ancient indian cities like taxila, sagana, pataliputra, Taxila.

[William Dalrymple]

So pataliputra is near modern or under modern patna in bihar. So a little bit further east, taxila is way north in what's now outside islamabad today outside roppindi in what's now pakistan. And taxila seems to have been a major kushan center, too. It's associated in many of the buddhist jataka tales with education and seems to have been an early. Some scholars use the word university town. So you have these centers of learning where people go to study. And in fact, one of the first references we have to taxila is chandragupta Maurya, the grandfather of Ashoka who goes to study in Taxila. And that's where he encounters Alexander.

[Tristan Hughes]

Alexander the Great. Yes, exactly.

[William Dalrymple]

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[Tristan Hughes]

The whole central position of the Kushan Empire, you know, existing at the same time that you have the Han dynasty in China. And of course you have to the west, you have the end of the Roman Republic and the beginnings of the Roman Empire. You have mentioned in our last chat how India was the biggest trade partner of the Roman Empire. And you know, this idea of an overland silk road, it's difficult to portray it as that way, how the Romans had contact with China in that way sort of thing.

[William Dalrymple]

Well, we know that the Romans and the Chinese had no clear conception of each other's existence. That there's rumors in both places that there may be this city called Thes, which they talk about in the Periplus where silk is said to come from. But it's not like the Indian ports in the same text which are described as, you know, you go here, you buy that and it's here and then it's north of here and south of there. These is this distant mythical city that is said to be beyond the seas and difficult to get to. Likewise, the Roman texts talk about this sort of distant empire that is said to exist to the far west. Daquin. So there's no clear evidence for any direct contact.

[Tristan Hughes]

So that's good to hide.

[William Dalrymple]

Between Greece and Rome, there may have been capillary trade, you know, things moving slowly along trade routes and eventually reaching the far end of a long trade route. But that's in strong contrast to what you've got between the Red Sea coast of Egypt and the west coast of India, where you have whole fleets of 250 vessels setting off, as Strabo describes, in great merchant fleets going to trade with each iteration of the monsoon wind. One of India's great gifts is that the winds blow hard in one direction for six months and then it reverses and comes back. So if you're an Indian sailor, you just got to put up a sail. And if you're looking westwards, you can end up, if you trim your sails correctly, at the Red Sea coast, where Mon porphyrites, the source of porphyry, is where Berenike, which is this wonderful trading port, where the Chicago archaeologists under Steve Sidebottom had found these extraordinary Buddha images and landing places for Indian vessels. And the Kushans were an important part of that trade. What seems to have happened is that they captured both the port of Barbaricum, which is more or less where modern Karachi is, or rather Karachi Airport, in fact, just to the. To. To the east of Karachi, where the mouth of the Indus is, where the. Where the Indus debouches into the ocean and people seem to have landed there, then punted on rafts up as far as Bagram, where the Bagram treasure, where, yes, we were talking about earlier, turns up. So under the American Air Force base in Bagram, archaeologists found Alexandrian glassware with pictures of the Pharos lighthouse or, you know, sort of gladiator images.

[Tristan Hughes]

There's a beautiful gladiator vase, isn't there? From Begram.

[William Dalrymple]

From Begram. Another of the date harvest, another of the wine harvest. And in reverse, you get yaksh, these gorgeous voluptuous figures we were talking about, made under Kashan rule in ivory, turning up in Pompeii, also the one we often forget about. We think about. We always talk about the trade between Rome and India. What we forget is there's also Aksum and the Ethiopian kingdoms on the way halfway point. And so there's an enormous hoard discovered fairly recently in one of the high early churches of Ethiopia of, I think it's 250kushan coins turned up there, which there are wonderful descriptions and very good scholarly papers about.

[Tristan Hughes]

And also, I'm guessing I don't want to use the word middlemen because I don't think it's accurate. However, there is evidence of Kushan contact with the Han Dynasty in China as well. And they're kind of these beautiful lacquerwares that they found in The Begram hoard. So you have all this kind of.

[William Dalrymple]

Beautiful stuff, plus you get a lot of very nice Kushan textiles turning up in the Xiongnu burials in what is now Mongolia. Wow. So the Huns are actually the middlemen between the Chinese and the Kushans. And if you go to the Hermitage, Russian archaeologists digging in the 20s and 30s or Soviet archaeologists found these incredible Kushan textiles that look quite like the early images in Ajanta from the cave 9 and 10. Ajanta is about 150bc and these have the same three quarter profile images of vaguely Hellenistic, not a million miles from the Fayum portraits. That's early, sort of Hellenistic, with these melancholy faces. And these are now, you know, in St. Petersburg, miles away from the world that we associate. But that's because the Xiongnu traded for these things. They were found in Xiongnu burial grounds and are now in Russia.

[Tristan Hughes]

So do you think it's not improbable or. It is certainly possible, if we also go back to that point you mentioned earlier that Buddhism is big with traders, that you could have had someone from the Kushan Empire living in that area of the world actually going on a trading mission down, well, the Indian Ocean and then across to the Red Sea and up to Alexandria. So you could have had, within the Roman Empire, Kushan traders, almost certainly.

[William Dalrymple]

So there's several signs of this. So first of all, there is figures that are almost certainly Kushan ambassadors on Trajan's Column, who seem to have arrived in Rome, found that the Emperor was away and followed him to Dacia, where the images are recorded.

[Tristan Hughes]

That's Romania tonight.

[William Dalrymple]

Wow. So you have Kushan, what looks very like Kushan ambassadors turning up in modern Romania, which is way beyond where you expect to find them. But the big excitement and where a lot of new data is turning up are these excavations in Berenice, Berenike on the Red Sea coast. This is near two crucial places. One is Mons Porphyritus, where all the porphyry in the world comes from. So the phrase born in the purple, that's because the imperial birthing chamber in Rome is clad with this porphyry. The other interesting site that's just near to there is The Monastery of St. Anthony, the first Christian monastery in the world. And given that we now have clear evidence from Berenice that there is Buddhist activity, I mean, beautiful Buddha's heads carved in Alexandria, set up in a temple to the goddess Isis on the Red Sea coast, given that that is the case and given that by this stage Buddhist monasticism was already 400 years old and had spread from the Ganges Plain right across India, Sri Lanka, to Burma, to Afghanistan, Pakistan. Is it possible now to imagine that these Buddhist monks, if they were familiar figures in Egypt, inspired the early Christian monks to head out to the desert, and the Desert Fathers were basically a Christian take on Buddhist monks? We can't answer that question yet, but it's a question we can now ask, and we couldn't ask it 10 years ago because we haven't found clear Buddhist remains in Egypt. We now have. They're on the Red Sea. They're just on the coast where St. Anthony's is, just 50 miles from St.

[Tristan Hughes]

Anthony's it's absolutely extraordinary, William. I wish I had so much more time to ask so many more questions. I'm going to limit myself only to a few more, and I want to go back to actually something that is a pet favorite topic of mine now. When the Kushan take over in Afghanistan, as you mentioned, there are those Greek cities, you know, it's more. I can. Places like that. But of course, the Greco Bactrian rulers that had come before you have. I mean, they live, but they leave behind what I would argue is the most beautiful coinage in the ancient world. There's one coin of Eucrates, I think, which is the largest coin from antiquity.

[William Dalrymple]

They're gorgeous.

[Tristan Hughes]

They are absolutely gorgeous.

[William Dalrymple]

And their faces look like our faces. They look, I mean, very specifically European faces. And some of the hats they're wearing are rather like sort of solotopes. They do feel. No wonder the Victorians got so excited when they dug them up, because they look just like the Victorians.

[Tristan Hughes]

Exactly, exactly. But. So the question I'd like to ask then is when the Kushans arrive and if it seems like, at least for a time, they continue with Greek writing as well and the Greek language, if we're right, Anglic queens, as you were saying, with their coinage as well. Can we see a significant influence from that preceding dynasty with the Kushan coins? I mean, what do we know about that?

[William Dalrymple]

I think there is influence, but it's there in a salad that includes Persian and Indic influence. And it's just one element in the salad. If you read Victorian archaeologists talking about it, they were obsessed, of course, with the classical and tend to drown out the Indic and the Persian elements in this mix. But there's all sorts of things going on. And right through the Kushan period, there's very different vibe in Gandhara, which is now the Peshawar Valley, to what's going on in Matra, you can always tell the sculptures apart because the stone they use in the. In the Gandharan valleys is this dark schist, which is often gilded. And so we have some of the very first gilded images of the. Of the Buddha, you know, which becomes such a big thing in Thailand and Burma, later on in Japan. But these early classical schist images often have still their gilding intact when they're dug up. And these are quite different from the far more Indian looking, far more rounded figures dug up in Matra. And so, for example, the female images that appear in the sequences showing the life of the Buddha in Gandhara, they're all wearing basically Roman clothing, or what we can recognize as sort of Mediterranean classical wear. And the women are quite covered up in Matra. They've got everything out, they're all half naked, they're wearing these tiny little girdles. A lot of them are courtesans that are deliberately showing off. They're everything. I mean, they're full on voluptuous images. I mean, the point of these images is that they're meant to be symbols of fertility. So they're playing up the sexiness, the fecundity, the fertility of the female figures. But there's a. You know, the Indian ones from Matra often have these Yakshis who are carrying wine. There's a little artistic trope whereby the sort of capital above them is in the form of a couple in a sort of booth at a taverna with glasses and the Akshis filling up their glasses or bringing a jar of wine to them. And we're right back there in that classical world of courtesans and taverns and wine drinking and merriment, and Gandhara is slightly more sort of covered up, it's slightly more decorous, it's slightly more sort of proper. Plus you have these extraordinary classicized figures, which always used to be thought by the Victorians to be the evidence of the surviving currents of Bactrian Greek imagery, but which archaeologists now emphasize is probably nothing to do with the Bactrian Greeks at all. It's contemporary Roman models. So there are only a few hints in classical art to distinguish what was ancient Greek from what is 1st 2nd century Roman. But the Gandharan images have those pointers. So, for example, ball and claw feet on furniture is something that didn't exist in ancient Greece, but did exist in classical Rome. And you find them in Gandara. So these key telltale pointers that the kind of Western art that is influencing the art of Gandara is coming from contemporary Rome, not from leftover legions of Alexander stuck in the Hindu Kush or all this romantic stuff that we love. But it actually doesn't work time wise because the Baching Gita kind of out of the picture by 150 BCE. And the gorgeous Gandhara Buddha figures with these tall handsome bodhisattvas with these mustaches and these very developed physiques. They're meant to be the future Buddha, Maitreya in his paradise. And he's shown as if he's just come out of the gym, you know, buffed torso, covered in gold jewelry, just had a nice visit to the barber and his mustache is perfectly waxed. And these images actually reach their peak in sort of 2nd, 3rd, 4th century A.D. so it's late classical. And then we even have some images of Gandhara which seem to reflect Coptic. So we have, which I have in the book, an extraordinary image of a Coptic papyrus of Jesus and his disciples which has identical iconography to some Gandharan murals which are now in western China, the site of Miran discovered by Aurel stein in the 1920s, currently located in the National Museum in Delhi. Exactly the same iconography except it's the Buddha and his disciples, not Jesus. So the Coptic original of Jesus has become the Buddha in the.

[Tristan Hughes]

And the Kushan's were still ruling at that time over that central area, were they? So you can see so the Kushan.

[William Dalrymple]

Dynasty had fallen, but their cultural influence and the kind of artistic models that they have pioneered by the 4th and 5th century are still in use in the post Kushan world.

[Tristan Hughes]

Well, talk to us a bit about that as we wrap up now. William, you've highlighted, you know, the Kushan. It's the name of the dynasty ruling over these regions where you see these great transformations in art, like in Gandhara, as you say, and that influence from the Romans world is fascinating. What happened to the Kushan dynasty that's been watching it, you know, that had great figures like Kanishka and so on.

[William Dalrymple]

So Kanishka is usually regarded as the peak of Kushan power about 127 AD and he manages to defeat the Parthians for his lifetime. But the Parthians begin to roll back and you get the Indo Parthians coming after the Kushans fall and you have a period of various dynasties and unclear chronologies until a century later you get the rise of the imperial Guptas. Now the imperial Guptas are clearly Hindu and they are great favorites of Indian nationalist textbooks because they follow the same gods as modern Indians do. So they have very clearly Brahma, Vishnu, Lord Shiva, the Goddess, particularly the Goddess Durga. And we see with Gupta rule the period that is always said to be the high classical period of Indian civilization. It's the period when the Indian Shakespeare writes Shakuntala and the Cloud Messenger. It's the period when the Kama Sutra is composed. It's the period when the great mathematician Aryabhakta is writing about zero, and between him and Brahmagupta, developing the Indic number system, which is the one we use today, the nine Indian figures plus zero is India's greatest gift to the world. So we hear a lot about the Guptas in Indian history books. They're very familiar to anyone that's grown up in India, in a way the Kushans often aren't, with the single exception of Kanishka. But in many ways, there is less evidence archaeologically of the Guptas than there should be. Maybe it's just we haven't found the sites yet. Maybe it's that they're built in wood. But in sheer terms of the amount of artwork sitting there as sculpture in Indian museums, and particularly Indian museum storerooms, there's vast amount of Kushan material with very little historical names and battles and biography to associate with. And then we get this Gupta period where we have these very clear images of great classical Indian kings like Chandragupta and a whole succession of great Gupta kings. But there's much less building work, archeology and art. I mean, there's some lovely stuff, but there's less. And there's a bit of a mystery, because if the Guptas were as powerful as their coins and their inscriptions indicate, and if they were as important to the foundations of Indian civilization as generations of Indian school children have been told, there should be slightly more than there is. And, you know, maybe, you know, archaeology is still not as well funded in India as it should be. And it could be that in the next generation, we discover all sorts of really amazing Gupta sites. But my personal opinion, judging on what's available now, is that, in a sense, we've slightly overdone the importance of the Guptas, and we've slightly underdone the importance of the Kushans, who I think deserve more recognition than they currently have. And, you know, neither in the west nor in India are they accorded the. The importance that they really seem to show in the archaeological record.

[Tristan Hughes]

And so are the Guptas the ones who then had defeated the Kushan dynasty and took over?

[William Dalrymple]

No, it's the Sasanians that really knock out the Kushans. You get this revival of Persian power in the early third century A.D. and the unfortunate Kushan king who takes on the Sasanians and loses is Vasudeva I. Right. And in 240 A.D. he is defeated. He. He's clearly Hindu. Vasudeva is a Hindu name, and his coins show this image of that looks to us like Lord Shiva, but which has the name Osho attached to it. And I think they basically lose the Afghan territories. They've already begun to lose their western, what's now western Chinese territories, what's now Xinjiang, to the Xiongnu. And so they're left with a rump state in the. In India, in the Gangetic, and Yamuna based in the Doab. And eventually there's all sorts of dynasties rise up, and the next sort of big thing, if you like, in Indian history is the rise of the Guptas.

[Tristan Hughes]

So that's how he gets the Guptas.

[William Dalrymple]

And the Guptas come out of the east and come and confront the descendants of the Kushans. And that is the point when in most Indian textbooks, you get, in a sense, the golden age of classical India. And Indian nationalist textbooks look on the Guptas as Hindu sons of the soil who defeat these invaders.

[Tristan Hughes]

Right?

[William Dalrymple]

And so, having got as far as Allahabad Prayag on the Ganges, the Kushans are then finally rolled up, and their last stand is probably Matura, which is the city where everything happens.

[Tristan Hughes]

Funny how it all ends in Mathura. There we go once again. Well, William, we've covered a lot. We've covered a lot in this chant about the Kushans. Last but certainly not least, talk to us. You have your book which covers the Kushanza so much more. It is called.

[William Dalrymple]

It is called the Golden How Ancient India Transformed the World. It's available in Hubbat, but next month is coming out in paperback. Whoa.

[Tristan Hughes]

Okay, okay.

[William Dalrymple]

This is beautifully, beautifully timed. It came out nine months ago when I last came on your wonderful podcast, my favorite history podcast, but it is coming out this month in paperback and will be available apart from anything else at the British Museum Shop. Illustrates everything we've talked about for this last hour. If you want to see tangible evidence of all the things we're talking about, if you're in Britain or in London, do go to the British Museum for this wonderful ancient India show and then go to the shop afterwards and buy the Golden Road.

[Tristan Hughes]

Go buy the book. Well, there you go. William, you are a salesman at heart and also a brilliant historian on all things Ancient India. It just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.

[William Dalrymple]

Thank you.

[Tristan Hughes]

Well, there you go. There was William Dalrymple returning to the podcast to give you an introduction to the Kashan Empire. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. William will be back in the near future for a follow up episode, so stay tuned for that one. All about India, the spread of Buddhism and Hinduism into Southeast Asia, and great monuments such as Angkor Wat and Borobudur. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Ancients. Please follow the show on the Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favor if you leave us a rating as well. Well, we'd really appreciate that. Don't forget you can also listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you [e-mail] subscribe that's enough from me and I will see you in the next episode.

[William Dalrymple]

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[William Dalrymple]

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[William Dalrymple]

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[William Dalrymple]

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