The Last Days of Pompeii

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Ancients – The Last Days of Pompeii

Host: Tristan Hughes
Guest: Dr. Jessica Venner (Leverhulme Early Career Fellow at the University of Oxford, author of The Lost Voices of Pompeii)
Date: April 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode transports listeners back to the bustling Roman town of Pompeii in the days leading to its destruction in 79 AD, foregrounding the lives of ordinary Pompeians. Historian Dr. Jessica Venner joins Tristan Hughes to illuminate the stories of everyday people – their trades, families, aspirations, and ultimately what befell them during the eruption of Mount Vesuvius. The conversation uncovers recent historical insights, debates (including the exact date of the eruption), and archaeological discoveries, while also giving fresh voice to Pompeii's overlooked residents.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pompeii: An Ordinary but Remarkable Roman Town

• Pompeii’s significance: Not a political or administrative center, but notable for its location in the fertile region of Campania, its bustling markets, and as a snapshot ("snow globe") of Roman urban life due to its extraordinary preservation. (05:56)
• Economic activity: Famous for cherries, cabbages, and especially the highly-prized fish sauce (garum). (08:11)
  • Quote: “Pompeii was famous for fish sauce, cherries, and cabbages.” (Dr. Venner, 08:14)

2. Life Before the Catastrophe

• Understanding Vesuvius: Pompeiians enjoyed the rich volcanic soil but had no living memory or recognition that Vesuvius was a volcano. Previous earthquakes (notably the devastating 62 AD quake) were interpreted as odd but not connected to the risk of an eruption. (09:09)

  • Quote: “They’d have made the connection in a way, but no one specifically said, this is a volcano.” (Dr. Venner, 10:08)

• Earthquake aftermath: The 62 AD quake led to a rebuilding boom; houses converted to commercial use or gardens, showing Pompeians’ resilience and adaptability.

  • Quote: “Most importantly, a lot of buildings that were residential were being converted into commercial properties or gardens.” (Dr. Venner, 12:47)

3. Population & Urban Gardening Trends

• Population estimates: New estimates suggest about 20,000 residents including slaves, with some scholars proposing far lower numbers – a debate Dr. Venner contests. (15:16)
• Garden creation: Following the earthquake, a marked shift toward urban gardens – a 250% increase in some parts of the city – as a psychological coping mechanism and practical adaptation. (16:30, 17:05)
  • Quote: “It is this natural response that humans have to revert to horticulture, really, in points of crisis... after the earthquake in AD 62, there was a 250% increase in urban agricultural gardens.” (Dr. Venner, 16:30)

4. The Controversial Date of the Eruption

• Debate on timing: The classic date from Pliny the Younger is August 24, but evidence (coins, harvests, pomegranates, clothing) indicates an October eruption may be more accurate.
  • Quote: “In my book, I’ve said the 24th of October, but the classic date is the 24th of August, which, of course, we get from Pliny.” (Dr. Venner, 19:09)

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Spotlight on Pompeians: Lost Voices Restored

(For each figure, Dr. Venner reconstructs their life based on archaeological and textual evidence)

1. Petronas (The Slave, composite character)

• Slave who appears in a loan contract, representing the many invisible but essential people underpinning Pompeian society. (22:11)

2. Julia Felix (Businesswoman & Landowner)

• Estate owner with baths, shops, gardens – likely a freedwoman, unusually assertive for her time; advertised property and services herself. (23:06)
  • Quote: “She’s trying to get a certain audience. So I love her so much, but we don’t know who she is from the sense that she’s called Julia Felix... She’s a complicated figure and I love that mystery around her.” (Dr. Venner, 23:44)

3. Aulus Umbricius Scaurus (Fish Sauce Magnate)

• Dominated the garum trade, exported branded sauce across the empire; mosaics in his own home celebrated his commercial success. (30:15–32:08)
  • Quote: “He ended up putting mosaics of his bottles in his atrium... just incredible.” (Dr. Venner, 32:08)
  • Memorable Moment: Realization that jars marked "Scaurus" reached as far as London – a tangible link to present-day locations.

4. Umbricia Fortunata (Freedwoman & Entrepreneur)

• Formerly a slave of Scaurus; her branding appears on sauce jars, even producing kosher garum to serve specific clientele. Dr. Venner used her as a model for reconstructing a working-class family’s home, complete with traces of children’s toys and a garden. (33:17)
  • Quote: “She was very savvy... selling fish sauce that was kosher as well.” (Dr. Venner, 33:53)

5. Euxenus (The Innkeeper)

• Ran an inn near the amphitheater; graffiti and shipping labels confirm his business and residence. Created a “pub garden” for patrons, attempted winemaking. (36:52)
  • Memorable Moment: The amphora with “Deliver to Euxenus at the Kalpona” as an ancient address. (37:38)

6. Amasoucius (Priest of Isis)

• Priest at the Temple of Isis, an inclusive cult attracting women, freedmen, and slaves alike. His identity and likeness are preserved in frescoes; the temple is central to local religious life and closely tied to community members like Julia Felix. (38:59, 41:19)
  • Quote: “We’ve got graffiti... that says the worshippers of Isis are everywhere. And that’s the whole graffiti.” (Dr. Venner, 40:55)

7. Gaius Cuspius Pansa (Politician)

• A local official with broad popular support, evidenced by graffiti from various working groups. His family sought legacy through statues and public works. (47:24)
  • Quote: “He was sort of the people’s man, or at least I think he would have put himself across like that... He’s a really, really interesting, but, yes, problematic character.” (Dr. Venner, 47:24)

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The Eruption: Sequence & Survivor Fate

[Timestamps Provided for Chronology]

• Eruption Begins (~Day 1 Early Afternoon, 52:20):
  • Sudden upward column of ash described by Pliny the Younger as “like a plane tree,” followed by falling pumice stones ("a blanket over the city"). (52:51)
  • Quote: “A column of ash goes up into the sky and it goes miles and miles and miles high. Importantly, it creates a sort of ceiling over the Bay of Naples.” (Dr. Venner, 52:20)
• Descent into Darkness:
  • As ash and larger rocks fall, day turns to night, roofs collapse, and people become trapped. (54:25)
  • First Pyroclastic Flow (~7 PM): Strikes Herculaneum, instantly burying the town. (55:58)
  • Pompeii’s Critical Hours (Night to Early Morning): Attempts to escape are stalled as pumice blocks exits; some become entombed while seeking shelter. (56:25)
  • Efforts to Escape: Many try to flee toward the sea, notably the 300 people in Herculaneum boat sheds; some are found outside the walls, and even in trees (one man attempts to climb above the flow). (57:43)
• Dawn and False Calm (~sunrise, 59:29):
  • Lull in volcanic activity sees some returning for possessions, tragic timing as a second, more lethal pyroclastic flow finally overcomes city walls and destroys all survivors left. (60:06)
  • Quote: “It takes out the city. And everyone that is there was killed instantly with this flow that hit them. The heat was incredible—hundreds of centigrade.” (Dr. Venner, 60:06)
• Victims & Preservation:
  • Of an estimated 20,000, only 1,600–1,700 bodies have been found. Many suffocated or died by falling debris, while others were killed instantly by pyroclastic flows, their bodies preserved in plaster casts. (61:42)
  • Quote on Human Connection: “These things are universal; they’ll never change. They woke up with the same worries and joys and hopes that we wake up with every day... all we’re all human and we all share the same fundamental, you know, values.” (Dr. Venner, 43:04)

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Pompeii After the Eruption

• Immediate Aftermath: Survivors dig through volcanic deposits for belongings; Emperor Titus establishes a relief fund from survivors’ and victims’ assets, but the city is effectively abandoned. (67:16–68:35)
• Rediscovery: Pompeii becomes a footnote until archaeological excavation centuries later, transforming global understanding of Roman daily life. (69:10)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Ordinary People as “the Real Jewel” of Pompeii:
  • “The bakers, the politicians on a lower level, the slaves... they are the ones holding the empire up, so they definitely deserve a story.” (Dr. Venner, 05:28)
• Women’s Roles More Complex than Once Thought:
  • “Women had more involvement than we give them credit for in public and private life.” (Dr. Venner, 28:16)
• On Human Relatability:
  • “When you find a children’s toy in an area that they used to enjoy their dinner in the garden, that is not different to today at all.” (Dr. Venner, 43:04)
• Emotional Impact of Telling Pompeii’s Story:
  • “Putting into words the disaster they were experiencing, the chaos, the panic, it was very hard to come to terms with.” (Dr. Venner, 69:36)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 05:28 – Importance of ordinary Pompeians
• 08:14 – Pompeii’s quirky claims to fame
• 12:47 – Earthquake aftermath and urban renewal
• 16:30 – Urban gardens: crisis response
• 19:09 – Date of eruption: the great debate
• 23:44 – Julia Felix’s independence
• 32:08 – Global reach of Pompeian garum
• 36:52 – Daily life: the innkeeper’s world
• 41:19 – Isis worship and civic identity
• 47:24 – Local politics and ambition
• 52:20 – Hour-by-hour eruption timeline
• 61:42 – Human remains and archaeological methods
• 67:16 – The survivors and aftermath
• 69:36 – Emotional cost of recovering lost lives

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Further Reading

Dr. Jessica Venner, The Lost Voices of Pompeii (71:03)
A narrative bringing to light the stories and personal struggles of real Pompeians, grounded in rigorous archaeological evidence.

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Episode Tone & Language

The episode is factual yet empathetic, balancing vivid archaeological detail with a deep sense of humanity and loss. Dr. Venner’s narration is lively, impassioned, and rich in anecdote, inviting listeners not just to learn facts, but to connect with the fears, hopes, and ingenuity of ancient individuals.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Ancients offers a nuanced portrayal of Pompeii before, during, and after its destruction, with an emphasis on reclaiming the individuality of those who lived, worked, and perished there. It expertly weaves archaeological evidence with personal stories, challenging stereotypes about Roman society, and making its ancient residents feel alive and relatable to modern listeners.

Transcript

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[Host]

town is bustling, citizens walking up and down its stone streets, buying food from local bakeries, reading announcements on the walls saying when the next gladiatorial games were to be held at the amphitheatre just down the road, passing great townhouses home to wealthy families. In one of these houses lives a merchant. He was called Aulis Umbricius Scaurus. Now Scaurus had become something of a merchant celebrity, a magnate whose goods were famous throughout Pompeii and even far beyond the city's walls. The man was renowned for a very peculiar commodity, a smelly yet highly desired delicacy of the time, a fish sauce Known as Garum. From his workshops in and around Pompeii, Scaurus had built himself a Garum empire with clay vessels carrying this condiment stamped with his mark, being transported across the Roman Empire to places as far away as Londinium in distant Britannia. You can imagine Scaurus being pleased with himself and what he had achieved. Life was good for him in busy Pompeii, something that certainly couldn't be said for everyone. The occasional ground shaking earthquakes originating from the towering mountain above Pompeii was a discomfort that he was willing to endure. Scaurus intended his Garum business to last for generations. He had no idea that its destruction was imminent. Hours later, Aden apocalypse had descended. Day had turned to night. A huge column of black rock and ash spurting from Mount Vesuvius, covering Pompeii in a veil of darkness. For Scaurus and many other Pompeians, they faced a stark choice. Do they hide and wait out this hellish experience? Or do they try and flee? Welcome to the Ancients. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and this is the story of the last days of Pompeii, exploring the lives of Pompeians who experienced this catastrophe firsthand. Figures like Scaurus. Our guest is Dr. Jessica Venner Leverhulme, early career fellow at the University of Oxford and the author of the Lost Voices of Pompeii.

[Co-host]

Jess, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. It's great to have you on the Ancients.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Thank you so much. I'm so, so, so happy to be

[Co-host]

here and to talk about Pompeii and not just the story of its destruction, the other part, which I think is the best part, it's the story of the lives of the people who are around at that time.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

I know the ordinary people, I think, far too often get left out of the story and they are the story. So I think, yeah, we need to start talking about that. Definitely.

[Co-host]

Do you think this is actually the real jewel in the crown in the story of Pompeii? It's the lives of these ordinary people. They're not emperors, they're not highborn senators. They're living their lives in this town.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Exactly. They're the people that built the empire. You know, they're the ones behind the scenes. The bakers, you know, the politicians that were on a lower level, the slaves. We don't talk about them. And they are the ones holding the empire up. So they definitely deserve a story. For sure. Yes.

[Co-host]

Well, let's set the scene. So Pompeii in the 70s AD, before the eruption, how important a town, or can we say a city was this in the Roman Empire at that time?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

You know, it was an ordinary town and that's what makes it remarkable in a way, because of the way that it was preserved. It's the sense that we've actually got this snow globe of a city. And it was important just as much as any other town in the region was, because Pompeii was in the region of Campania, and that's a very, very fertile region because of Vesuvius. Now, they didn't know this, they didn't know Vesuvius was a volcano. They just thought, fantastic, there's a really fertile area. They used to grow on the volcano, on the side vines. So that's what made Pompeii important. It was on the river Sarno, it was right by the sea, which we find very odd now. But the eruption did push it coast out. And so they were able to connect themselves by the road and the sea and, you know, to other market centers, including Rome. And it wasn't too far away, relatively speaking. So it was an important part of, you know, the operation of Rome itself was one of those towns.

[Co-host]

And do we think there were many other then, like many other Pompeii like towns in the vicinity, likewise making the most of that really fertile land in Campania, that rich area of Italy. So we think of Pompeii as unique today. But before the eruption, you know, there are many other settlements that were quite similar to it.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Absolutely, yeah. And they were all sort of known for their own things. There was something unique about each of them. So of course, we've got Herculaneum that was very much on the coast, that was. Had its own, you know, harbour. Right, right there. Pompeii did it as well. But this one was characterized by being very sea heavy. They ate a lot of seafood as well. We know that from their skeletons. And it was a much smaller town, but much more posh. A lot of rich people would live there. They even had marble sort of lined streets. So they were a lot fancier than Pompeii, which was very much a market town. It was very commercially driven. There were a lot of shops and workshops creating things, whereas then you've got lots of villas around Pompeii and the other towns and smaller towns and bigger towns. Puteoli was another one right on the coast on the Bay of Naples. That was a very important harbour town, the most important, until it was moved to Austier, I think. And so it Was there were all these different characteristics of these towns. They all had their role to play, but in their own right, they were ordinary towns.

[Co-host]

So what was Pompeii in particular? What was Pompeii famous for?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Pompeii was famous for a few things that might surprise. Pompeii was famous for fish sauce.

[Co-host]

Okay, right.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Pompeii was famous for cherries, and Pompeii was famous for cabbages.

[Co-host]

I've never heard cherries and cabbages being linked to poii before.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yeah, Pliny's really enthusiastic about this, you know, the importance of Pompeii and cherries and fish sauce and things, which is fantastic because I'm sure we'll talk about it. We know who was making the fish sauce. So mind blowing. But it was also famous, the region for actually, Pliny mentions Pompeii and wine and says, you know, don't drink it unless you want a headache in the morning.

[Co-host]

Okay, Right, okay.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yeah. So it's because it's really strong and quickly made. It's not, you know, for your fancy people, which would be made out in the villas, for example.

[Co-host]

And did they have any inkling that this special mountain that they were right next to, did they have any inkling that it was a volcano?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

So there were mutterings. For example, we've got Vitruvius, who was an architect at the time, and he wrote about, obviously, architecture, but other materials and things that would come into that process. And he reflected on the sponge stone of the area and said, oh, it's a bit weird because that's kind of like the ones around Mount Etna. And then we have people like Strabo saying similar things, you know, saying there's fire pits, you know, it looks like it's been charred. And he's kind of a giveaway. Okay, this is looking like elsewhere, you know, and they were aware of the earthquakes in the area, and they would have made the connection in a way, but no one specifically said, this is a volcano. And so, you know, again, it was just inklings. They had no cultural memory within recent enough memory for it to have passed down as that fact.

[Co-host]

And Mount Etna, as you mentioned in passing, so that's the big volcano in northeast Sicily, which they knew was a volcano at that time.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yes, exactly. So they had that point of reference. And, of course, the earthquakes were very commonplace in Campania. We have these mentioned fairly regularly. And, you know, they say Campania is plagued by earthquakes, and they even sort of wonder whether there's giants living under the volcano and things. That are causing these rumbles. Yes, exactly. So they're making links, but no one specifically comes out and says, okay, Vesuvius is a volcano.

[Co-host]

Because Pompeii had experienced some quite severe earthquakes before 70 AD, hadn't it?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yes. So in 62 AD, there was a huge earthquake which hit the town on the 5th of February.

[Co-host]

Specifically, we know the specific date.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

That's incredible. We do, we do. So it was between 5 and 6 on the Richter scale, so it's fairly large. But it caused widespread destruction. Pompeii was very badly damaged. Other towns were as well. But Pompeii is particularly mentioned by writers at the time, and they say that people in the town were walking about, unable to know what to do with themselves. They were completely disorientated. We even have a little frieze, which is a sort of marble cutout, almost a decoration in someone's house. A banker called Caecilius Secundus, who, if anyone's done a Cambridge Latin, we know Kaecilius Estudio. And he had a free around his. In his atrium that was depicting this earthquake. So you've got little statues in the Forum next to the Temple of Jupiter falling off of their horses in this picture. It's like a little satirical sort of take on the earthquake. But interestingly, Kaecilius potentially died in this earthquake because he was one of the biggest bankers in Pompeii, and his records, his wax tablets were found in his house by excavators, and the records stop almost exactly at the date of the earthquake. So.

[Co-host]

So he died, or he decided, right, this is too.

[Jamie]

I can't do this anymore.

[Co-host]

I can't do this anymore. I'm moving. I'm moving to Rome or something like that.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Although I do find it really weird that his family would commemorate the earthquake that potentially killed him in his atrium.

[Co-host]

Some weird kind of memorial right there. Exactly. But what I love about that is that because it was such a severe earthquake, you know, so six on the Richter scale. I mean, for years they're having to mend Pompeii. So Even in the 70s, you can see evidence of rebuilding, changing the materials, deciding how they're going to fix certain buildings that had only kind of partially fallen down. So should we also be imagining Pompeii coming up to 79 AD, maybe not the wealthiest it's ever been, but a city, a settlement that is in a state of repairing?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

It's very much that, yes. We sort of, you know, we think of Pompeii today. It's this sort of grey landscape of buildings without roofs and things like that, it's quite hard to imagine what it would have looked like. But there are clues throughout the site. There's cracks in walls, they've blocked up doors, they've changed the structure of buildings. Most importantly, a lot of buildings that were residential were being converted into commercial properties or gardens, which is something I've spent a lot of time studying.

[Co-host]

We can certainly explore that.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yeah, we must, we must. And so there was this sort of resilient response to this point of crisis, and they were having other crises going on as well. There was a recently recorded famine during this period of time, this last 20 years, for example. And, you know, Pompeii had a fight with New Syria, this local town, in a riot, and people were killed, and then they were punished for it by the emperor and the Senate. So they're having a bit of a rough time of it. Not that they really paid attention to that, by the way, but they're having a bit of a rough time. And so they seem to look at these problems a bit like we did during COVID where you start to find creative ways to get around challenges. And you can see that across the town. So, yes, they're in a point of repair. I mean, the Stabion baths, one of the biggest bath houses in the. In the town, was still being repaired at the time, whereas the Temple of Isis was repaired immediately by. I think he was seven years old, this young boy who repaired the temple of Isis.

[Co-host]

I'm sure it was just him. Right, okay.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

All by himself. But he funded it. And that shows us that actually, you know, Isis was a goddess of rebirth. And I think that's a beautifully taken

[Co-host]

from Egypt as well.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yes. Yeah. Interesting. Yes. Because they're not prioritizing Roman temples. The Temple of Jupiter in the Forum was still out of use at the time of the eruption. But they were like, no, we must prioritize this temple, which is for a goddess who was open to all social strata, slaves upwards. So she was unique in that way, anyway. So I think it's really important to look at those cracks and you can find what people would prioritize in them.

[Co-host]

It's such an amazing way to get an insight into, you know, kind of that life and Pompeii at that time. And do we have any sense in regards to the total population? This is a tricky question for me to ask because there's all of this debate. A new piece of information comes to light and they say, oh, actually, it's more than 20,000 or it's less than. You've got an opinion on that?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

I have opinion on a lot of things. With Pompeii, I think that 20,000 is a very, very normal amount for that sort of size of city. It's usually based on the amphitheater's capacity that would have held a good amount of people. So it does follow that that should be at least the amount that can fit in an amphitheater. And then obviously, not everyone's gonna go to every single game, and then you've got slaves on top of that. And the slaves are the problem, really, actually, in the calculations of these things, sometimes they're discounted too much. And I think there were far more slaves than are counted in some. Some of the estimates have gone down to 7,500 people, which is so small. I mean, anyone that's been to Pompeii, you've been many times, and you can see that it's a huge town, really, you know, and also then you would count the citizenry outside of the town walls as well. Do you count those in. Yes, you do, because they're part of that territory. So. So it's a very open question, but I would personally say about 20,000 is a good estimate.

[Co-host]

You also mentioned how in the changing landscape after the earthquake, you can see kind of lots of gardens being created. Just because I know you've done a lot of work on that. Why? Why do so many people take advantage of this changing landscape and decide, right, I'm building a garden.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Ah, so it is this natural response that humans have to revert to horticulture, really, in points of crisis. Yeah, we have it all over still happening now. And I did mention Covid. We all started gardening again. All of a sudden there were, you know, window boxes everywhere, and everyone wanted an allotment. It's almost like a natural response. But in Pompeii, it was an opportunistic thing, I think. So after the earthquake in 80, 62, in those 17 years, up until the eruption, there was a 250% increase, I found in urban agricultural gardens.

[Co-host]

250%?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yes. And just in two out of nine regions. So in the southeastern corner nearest the amphitheater, and this was once an area that was very agricultural anyway, and then over time, it was built up between, you know, like 30180 BC we see it really developed, and then you've got the colonization of Pompeii and towards the end of, you know, the Republic, So

[Co-host]

that's when it becomes an actual Roman city.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

That's when it becomes Roman. So by the time of the eruption, it had been roman less than 200 years, which is crazy to think, isn't it? And then they start putting vineyards and orchards and vegetable plots and perfume gardens where residential buildings have been. And the part of the reason for this was because there was the destruction, of course, so they're having to take down properties because they're damaged. But there were laws in place that were stopping this happening across the Empire because the Senate were really concerned that, you know, the towns of the Roman Empire were becoming a bit drab and a bit shabby. So they were like, can everyone just stop demolishing things and profiting off it, please? But they were like loopholes in that rule. And so in Pompeii, they were making the most of that. They were destroying properties so that they could create these large gardens. And some of them were huge, like 1500 square feet. So it's quite impressive.

[Co-host]

It's one of those things you can also forget when you're going through the ruins of Pompeii today, is to imagine, like, the open spaces, you know, and what is such a vital part of the story. So I'm really glad we can mention that a psychological nature of it as well. If you see more evidence of foliage in this studio in future recordings, then you know that we're going now through a crisis in the background.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

So that's a nice insight right there. Yeah.

[Co-host]

I have to ask one more question around dates, which is the date of the eruption itself. So controversy around the size of Pompeii. Is there also still a bit of a question mark? The jury's out as to when exactly in 79 AD, Mount Vesuvius erupted.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yeah. There is amongst archaeologists that study Pompeii, including myself, we all disagree.

[Co-host]

Okay, good.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yeah, sounds great. It's a constant, ongoing debate and an interesting one because I think they're all valid. And people often ask me, why does it matter? It matters greatly because the Roman calendar was very specific about what could happen when. And so it tells us a lot about what they were doing at the time, which is, you know, impactful from the point of view of gardens, because we've just been talking about them. Had the harvest just happened? It looks like it had. And that's one of the reasons that we think about a certain date. So I'm in the camp of thinking it was in the autumn. In my book, I've said the 24th of October, but the classic date is the 24th of August, which, of course, we get from Pliny. And, you know, I think there's good reasons for the 24th of August. It's a good. You know, obviously, if something keeps being repeated in a manuscript, then that's pretty good evidence of that. Right. And people like Pliny the Younger were, from a very young age, trained to have an incredibly good memory for rhetoric. So that was. That was just something they were doing. So, you know, okay, fine, that makes sense. However, there's lots of archibetanical. You know, they'd already seem to have done the harvest and they'd sealed up the amphorae in the floor, so they finished that process of winemaking. There were coins found there that pushed the date back because the Emperor Titus had had an acclamation, which is sort of like a grandiose way of showing that he was in charge. And isn't this wonderful? And that kept happening. And so the date of that is a little bit later. So that's sort of pushing it already. And yes, it could have been August, but that coin would have had to go into circulation and get to Pompeii within a couple of weeks. So it's kind of like, is that realistic? Probably not. Could happen. But this is the thing. When you start looking into the evidence, you're like, yeah, no, could be. And then. So, for example, one of the things that always comes up is clothing. People say, okay, they were wearing wool clothing. And then on the other side, you could say, yes, it could be chilly, but, you know, and obviously the cloud has gone over the, you know, the sun, so it's gonna be chilly anyway. But wool is fire retardant, so it's gonna stop burning. And there's the charcoal graffiti, of course.

[Co-host]

Another line of evidence as well.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yes. Yeah. But charcoal graffit can last. Has been proven. Again, every. There's an argument for and against for everything.

[Co-host]

This is why when you said that there was debate, I'm like, oh, good. Because I love hearing the theories put forwards from either side. Because when you have a debate like this, it's not one side is evidently clearly wrong. There are good arguments put forward for both sides. And so it's always very interesting to hear. I do see what you mean, though, about the later date. And there's like pomegranate evidence and all that, isn't it?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Oh, the pomegranates. Yeah. The pomegranate problem. Yeah.

[Co-host]

Is there a pomegranate problem? Okay. That's not a rabbit hole that we. We won't go down too much?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

No, no, no, no.

[Co-host]

I Mean, you mentioned your book there. So your book focuses on the lives of certain individuals who are alive in Pompeii in 79 AD. Shall we briefly just go through who these figures were and how we know about them?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Oh, yes. These figures I came across time and time again, and I got to know them very well over the course of my doctoral research. And I was very fond of them, but I very much felt like they weren't getting a voice. And so I wrote the Lost Voices of Pompeii to give them that and a bit of their dignity back as well, because sometimes they're sort of just forgotten in the archaeological record and in the terms of the destruction of the city is given a lot of importance. And so we have a slave. He's a composite of slaves, because obviously we can't know what he was getting up to every day because of the nature of his invisible work. Right. But Petronas, who I've given him that name, did exist. He's found in a loan between two women as, you know, collateral for a loan of money. So he did exist in the city. We've got a female businesswoman, Julia Felix. She's quite famous now, actually.

[Co-host]

She's quite well known.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

She's quite famous, but I wanted to show her side of things, of living in a man's world. And we know about her from her incredible estate in Pompeii, with baths and, you know, her own apartments, other apartments that people could have for themselves, shops, gardens. So we know a lot about her.

[Co-host]

She has her own restaurant. I've been in that room in that restaurant with like, kind of the tri cleaning, the reclining area, but also kind of seats and the kitchen area, the oven and the counter as well. And that's all part, you say, of her estate alongside her domus, isn't it, if it's within the city walls.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Exactly.

[Co-host]

A luxurious house.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Exactly. And it's very, you know, male outward. And from a. From a Roman perspective, this is something that a man would do. Like, it's outrageous. You know, to us, in that way, it seems outrageous. As a modern person, we're obviously like, well, that seems pretty normal, but it absolutely wasn't. You know, she's putting advertisements outside her property saying, you can rent out my apartments. You can use the Venus baths for discerning people. So she's trying to get a certain audience. So I love her so much, but we don't know who she is from the sense that she's called Julia Felix. This is quite a slave, like, freed woman's sort of name, Felix is usually put on the name. So, okay, so for mine, she might be a freed woman, Julia. She might be from the clan of Julius Caesar's clan. Okay, that's important. So maybe she came from Rome, but then she's saying she's daughter of Spurious, which means that she's not a daughter of this sort of. She can't claim heritage in that way. She's a complicated figure and I love that mystery around her. So she's just really fascinating as a woman.

[Co-host]

The location of her estate also, it's right next to the amphitheatre, so that's quite prime posting.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Oh, my God, yes, it absolutely is. And you know, she's in a lovely district because like we said, she's surrounded by these beautiful vineyards and orchards and things, but it is like an entertainment district as well. She had some involvement, we think, in the pedestrianization of the road outside her house, which divides her from the amphitheater. So she clearly had a big voice in the city. And this isn't completely unusual. In Pompeii, we have got other women like Eumacia, who lived some time before Julia, who is commemorated in the forum, but as a result of her own self, she's doing it. She's got a tomb outside the city walls that Julia in the book visits because it's sort of this really difficult environment to navigate anyway, as a man, so can you imagine how difficult it is for a woman so for them to then be commemorated in the city? That's incredible.

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[Co-host]

Do we reckon that a figure like Julia Felix, do we reckon that she was unusual for the time, or do you actually think that she is A way in which we can actually push aside no idea that it's always dominated by men, but actually women could rise high in a place like Pompeii.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

I think Pompeii is starting to reveal those secrets in the sense that the impression we've had, like you're saying, is not actually quite what what it was on paper. Sure, on paper she would have to have a guardian if she was widowed or never married or hasn't got a father in the, in the mix. So she would have had to have a guardian for that on paper, but she very likely didn't do that often. It's one of those things where it's like, okay, officially, fine, I've done that because, you know that loan I mentioned between two women, they're conducting that themselves. And yes, they probably officially had a guardian to sign it off, but let's be honest, they probably didn't. And the more I looked into women in Pompeii got down this fantastic rabbit hole where I thought, well, who would have been around Julia? Who would she have been relying on? And I found all of these fascinating women that had some involvement in families that were already in business or they were very, very old families, but that would have all existed at the same time. And even on the street that Julia Felix lived on were so many women and they were putting out electoral notices outside their houses. And as women, they couldn't vote. They're having an involvement and a voice in the electoral process, but they couldn't vote. So clearly women had more involvement than we give them credit for in public and private life.

[Co-host]

And putting those notices up on that street, like linking the main area of Pompeii with the amphitheater. Right. On games day, they're gonna see that. That's like prime advertising for that street. So. Yeah, that's fascinating, isn't it?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Co-host]

And like, so of those seven, we've mentioned two already, the slave and Julia Felix. Petronas and Julia Felix. You mentioned Garum earlier. Well, you mentioned fish sauce. I think I've spoiled it now. But if Pompeii is so famous for this fish sauce, is there a fish sauce figure who features in your list?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Easy for you to say.

[Co-host]

Thank you.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yes, there absolutely is. So Aulus Umbricius Scaurus is the fish sauce magnate of Pompeii.

[Co-host]

Wow, okay. The magnate. The magnate.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

He is the guy. Because he had dominated the fish sauce industry in Campania. He has the majority of labels on jars, these terracotta jars that they'd put out with the fish sauce in it. A very, like, specific shape with a pointy end. And like, you, you'd sit the bottle up. It wasn't like an amphora. It wasn't completely, you know, the amphora spiky at the end. So they're like these tiny little pretty bottles. And on that they would have branding and it would say, usually flower of Garum from the workshop of Scaurus, for example. And so there was this formula that he developed as branding that would recur on every bottle of his fish source.

[Co-host]

So you can track his empire, basically, whether these ceramics spread to.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Exactly. And he goes as far as Gaul, as Britannia. Yeah. So it's going so far out. And like I mentioned earlier, Pliny mentions the fish source of Pompeii. If he's dominating that fish source, it's very likely that because they were around at the same time, that it was his fish source that he was referring to, which I just think is crazy that we can track that. Yeah, yeah.

[Co-host]

It's amazing, that link between archaeology and literature right there.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Oh, it's the best. It's an archaeologist's dream, honestly, to think,

[Co-host]

actually with you mentioning coming all the way to Britannia, if the main trading hub of Roman Britain, the way that goods are getting into this land is Londinium is London. So we are probably doing this interview very close to where bottles of that fish source from Scourus from Pompeii went through, you know, almost 2,000 years ago. That is quite cool in itself.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

It's a bit mind blowing, isn't it? It's amazing. I love it so much. And, you know, he was so fond of his branding that he ended up putting mosaics of his bottles in his atrium. So his entrance hallway with this branding on it, just incredible. He had about, we think about seven workshops in the city, but by the time. So again, post earthquake, it looks like, from recent excavations that are being done on working people, which is great. I'm so pleased about that. On occupations, it looks like he was converting the workshops or selling them off and exporting sort of this main production process to places like Portugal, where they had huge manufacturing processes that were able to, you know, cope with this amount of fish sauce that the people wanted. It was basically like their ketchup. They put it on everything. Yeah.

[Co-host]

And it's a good business venture for scourers. It proves ultimately he loved it. So we've done. We've had a slave, we've had this businesswoman, and now we've got fish sauce magnets. Scour us four others to do. Who else? Well, who's next in the list?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

So probably a good segue is to Umbrichia Fortunata, who. Yes, sounds very much like Umbricius. And that's because she was his freed woman. And again, she did really exist. She was working for him in the fish sauce business. And I just think that's. It's just again, fascinating because we've again got these bottles with the branding on it. But it will say her name because she's Umbrikia. And people would know his brand in Pompeii very well. There's that association. So it's almost like, you know, it's

[Co-host]

a badge of honor, the seal of approval, almost. Oh, this comes from the Umbrikure branch.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yeah, exactly. And she was very savvy because she was creating, or at least she was selling fish sauce that was kosher as well. So she's doing, like, specific needs in business as well. That's just brilliant. So we've got two business women that we've already mentioned that are really tailoring their businesses to what people want at that time. You know, Julia converted the baths after the earthquake. Also we've got Umbrikia, who's going into business after her, freeing. And so it's just fascinating. So I created around Umbricia, her family. I wanted to depict a working family in the city of poor family. And I'd been studying this house called the Shop House Garden. If you walk past it, you would never notice it. It's not labeled or anything like that. It's very, very unassuming. But you walk in, it's got one room, then another room at the back. They would have had an apart. And then you've got a huge garden next to it. And again, it was one of those that had been. The buildings had been demolished. They created a vineyard with vegetable plots. And the most lovely part of this was that at the back of this garden, in the corner, there was a living area for the family with children's toys, cooking pots, a little niche for a shrine. They had an. It looks like they had an awning over them. They'd even chosen the spot based on the shade a tree would give in the afternoon, you know, as the sun would come round, and they'd put shards in the top of the wall to stop thieves coming in and stealing their fruit. And, you know, for someone like me, I'm able to reconstruct what that garden looked like based on the root cavities that were found there during the eruption process. There's a process where we're able to put plaster of Paris into the root cavities that were left when a. When an organic material decays. Exactly. Like the people are created. And so you can literally reconstruct where the paths were, where the vines were, where the stakes were, where the trees were. It's amazing.

[Co-host]

That's the other very cool part of the Pompeii archaeology, isn't it? It's like Wilhelmo Jashemski, she's like kind of the. Oh, yes, like the grandmother of all of this. This study of that she. The vine roots and the.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Exactly.

[Co-host]

You know, the various things that were being grown. Because you can look at the cavities, as you're saying, and then actually, really alongside, get a real idea of just how verdant and how beautiful those areas would have looked. Incredible.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yes, exactly. I think she estimated that a third of the city was green. And then I collaborated with a couple of other archaeologists on a map, and it pretty much is about a third of its green, which, again, if you look at it now, you think, oh, it's very gray city. But no, there would have been birdsong everywhere and there would have been vines crawling over walls. It would have smelt amazing. I mean, we had perfume gardens as well. I just think it's a very different image to what we have of it. It was very, very much alive.

[Co-host]

Well, and talking about a city very much being alive, let's go on to the innkeeper.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Oh, I love him. Euxenus. Yes, Yuxenus. And actually Jersemski was actually responsible for excavating his property as well as the Shophouse garden. She's my personal hero. So Yuxenus is an innkeeper, and he's one of those rare people, a bit like Aulus and Bricia Scowrers, that we know a huge amount about based on what he left behind in this one place. We know where he lived, we know what his name was, and we know his occupation. Really rare in Pompeii. You can't always be certain we know his name because on the outside of his property, he'd put up these political messages that I'd said about calling for the election of a politician. Okay. There's one inside. There was an amphora for wine, and it had his name and the address on it.

[Co-host]

Oh, fantastic.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

So it said, deliver to Euxenus at the Kalpona, which is an inn near the amphitheatre.

[Co-host]

Okay. So that's how they do addresses back then. Okay. Right.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Which just shows us in itself that everybody was very familiar with one another. This was a small community. Everyone would have known one another. And just having that. That's not a specific address. They would have known Euxinus, So she's lovely. Anyway, he was part of the community. So at the back, again, after the earthquake, he'd created this vineyard for a bit like a pub garden for his customers. And they would go and sit below the vines, drink wine. And he was even trying to create his own wine because he'd put dahlia, which are these huge terracotta jars that you would ferment wine in. He even had a couple of those, and he'd left them out of the ground so that they would create stronger wine.

[Co-host]

This is him trying a new business venture, is it?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

I think so. I think he was quite a, like, you know, wheeler dealer. And he had another vineyard as well in the next room that he'd created, also in his domus area. And we've got the classic counter. We've got the shrine on the wall with the serpent. We've got a dining room at the back that people would definitely have been gambling in and trying to pull women. So I think it's like a really vibrant place, this inn. Yeah. Back in A.D. 79.

[Co-host]

Well, you mentioned Isis earlier and how important Isis was. And your next figure is one of the religious community that worshiped this God?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yeah. You know, this is, again, one of those very rare. Because of the way I wrote this book, I had to find case studies that were very well documented because I wanted it to be as factual as possible. And as much as it might sound like fiction, I Wanted it to be based. In fact, if it can't have happened plausibly or didn't happen, it was. It's not in the book. And so the Temple of Isis is a really good example of that, where the excavators, even though it was excavated really early, put a huge amount of effort into recording every bit of this temple and preserving it. So if you go to the archaeological museum in Naples and I recommend everybody goes, they have pretty much everything from the temple there and it's reconstructed even in this little plastic model, which is just fantastic. So you walk in and my character Amasoucius again did exist. He's on a fresco. He's depicted his classic bald head that the priests would have. They were completely hairless, pluck out eyelashes and everything in his robes. And underneath is a little name. And it's been interpreted as different names, but Amasucius is what I can read and I'm sticking with that. So he would have been one of a number of priests and priestesses in this temple to Isis. And as I mentioned, Isis was the, you know, mother goddess of Egypt. She was the goddess of rebirth and very important for all people in society. And that was fairly rare in the sense that you wouldn't always get cults that were attracting women at the same time as slaves, at the same time as men and freedmen. You know, it was one of those all rounder cults. So it was very, very important in Pompeii and it was clearly becoming more and more popular because we've got graffiti, you know, around the town that says there's one fabulous one that says the worshippers of Isis are everywhere. And that's the whole graffiti.

[Co-host]

It's just as a complaint or just saying it is a warning.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

I don't know, I'm not sure. Kind of sounds like a threat, doesn't it? But we've also got them, you know, evidence of this cult crossing over with the lives of other people. So Julia Felix is one of those. She has, yes. She has a shrine in her garden to Isis and she has Egyptian motifs in her dining room that we mentioned.

[Co-host]

She does, yes. There's pygmies and there's crocodiles. There's a River Nile scene.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Exactly.

[Co-host]

Very exotic in their eyes.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yeah. And the River Nile especially is a Europus. So the water feature that runs down the straight one, that runs down the garden, that's a Europus and that's another Egyptian motif. And it runs to the shrine. Can't see the shrine now because the excavators literally lifted it out. It's not there anymore, but this was very personal to her. And then a couple of doors down we have Octavius Quartier and he is the one that had the priest depicted in this fresco. He also has a Europus, he also has a shrine to Isis. So we've got this community. They're not greatly far from the temple either. We've got evidence of these people that were actively worshiping Isis and involved in the cult. So much so that they were changing the decoration of their houses to suit that. He's one of the people we know the fate of as well. Of course, I've assigned it to his name, but we know of the certain fates of certain people and he's one of them.

[Co-host]

And the fate is in whether they die in the eruption or whether they survive.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Whether they survive, and I won't tell you which.

[Co-host]

Thank you. Yeah, there we go.

[Host]

Yeah, we've got to leave that.

[Co-host]

We'll leave that as it is. It's interesting what we've covered because with certain figures like Euxenus and the scene you've pictured there, you know, with the gambling, but also the business opportunity, maybe scour us as well. And Julia Felix, it shows everyday Romans in a more relatable light because so often you think of the gladiatorial combats or anything like that, and their attitudes, and you can easily show how different they are one day. But it is one of those complex things, how the Romans, you know, they are really strange to us in so many things, but in other ways, like everyday tasks, how they live their lives, how they survive, these jobs, these figures we're talking about, they can be relatable

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

at the same time, they're so relatable. And, you know, it's one of those old things that people say, particularly the archaeologists, about Pompeii and say, oh, don't assume that they're anything like us. They were very different. And I think personally, that forgets the human element of these people. Yes, okay, fine. You know, even just in the way that their politics worked, for example, or the food that they ate. Okay, yeah, they were a bit different and their morals were. Were definitely different to us today, particularly in relation to slavery, for example, that does separate us. But they're human beings. So when you find a children's toy in an area that they used to enjoy their dinner in the garden, that is not different to today at all. It's not different at all. You know, and creating a pub garden, because he knows for a fact that People are going to prefer drinking in that environment to a dingy indoor room. So he's created this expanded area with a garden, you know, and Umbricius Scourus knowing that branding and he's the first evidence that we have in the ancient world of branding in that way. So he has understood the psychology of people and thought, okay, this is giving it some oomph. They want to buy from me. These things are universal, they'll never change. They woke up with the same worries and joys and hopes that we wake up with every day. They would go to sleep with the same ones and they wanted to ultimately live a life with their friends and family that they could. It's just like going to the region. In Italy today I really, I watch people outside these families, children running around at nighttime in the central squares and think this is no different, you know, at the fundamental level that all we're all human and we all share the same fundamental, you know, values, We're lost.

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[Co-host]

Before we now go into the more catastrophic part of the story of Pompeii, there is still one more figure to do. And this figure gives us an insight more into the political side, the elections. This isn't the election to the main Senate in Rome or anything like this, but this gives you more sense of politics on a local town level.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yes, this is Gaius Cuspius Pansa, again, very well documented in Pompeii. His name is all over the city in A.D. 79, literally, because he's in lots and lots of electoral graffiti around the town. And it appears that they're all really mostly from ordinary people because of what they're saying. They're saying, I'm a fuller, you know, someone that would do laundry. So different people are instead of very posh people calling for his election. So he was like sort of the people's man, or at least I think he would have put himself across like that. Panzer was part of an old family, a bit like Scowris, and he would have had values, Roman male values that we would find problematic today. And so I wanted to sort of depict those problematic Roman values that wouldn't have seemed problematic at the time. Prejudices about, you know, people being lower than him or, you know, how he got into office, you know, things like that. But it's really interesting to see the involvement that he would have had in the city at a direct level, walking around the city in the way he would interact with others. He's a really, really interesting, but, yes, problematic character. And Petronas the slave in my book lives in his house. So we get to see the different perspective that those people would have had in the same house. It almost looks like a completely different place.

[Co-host]

And those figures at the top, you know, who very much know they're at the top in the Pompeii setting. Would they also be the ones, you know, that they'll try and get a statue of themselves erected in the main forum of Pompeii? They'll want to try and leave a legacy and as you say, you know, don't really care that much for the people beneath them. They're very much focused on themselves and leaving their own legacy on this town.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Absolutely. That was the biggest thing that a Roman male would want to achieve, was. Yeah, legacy in that sense, where their family wouldn't die as long as their name is remembered. And so he has family members with statues in the Forum. He has family members with statues in the Amphitheatre because they were involved in its reconstruction. And so Panzer is one of those people that's, like, very much attached to the fabric of Pompey's life through his family, by virtue of his family. And so he's rising up through the ranks. He's not quite at the top, but he must have been elected very, very recently in the summer elections. He would have then been put into office on the 1st of January. We obviously don't get to that. Regardless of the date of the eruption, it was, you know, at that time, at the end of 79. So he would have come in an 80 AD and he didn't quite get there, but he would have been very much involved in city life already because he was so well known and they just elected him. But, you know, Pompeii is notorious in the Republic and onwards for being really difficult for politics. Bear in mind. So when Cicero was writing about Pompeii, he says Pompeii is difficult, and he's talking about the politics and the fact that Cicero thinks that, and he's, you know, having a hard time more than 100 years earlier.

[Co-host]

Yep.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yeah, it's notorious for being politically difficult to survive. So someone like Panzer is gonna have to be a pretty robust character to get through that. And so, yeah, he's an interesting one, I think.

[Co-host]

Well, Jess, this has been a great way to kind of highlight these specific lives within Pompeii in 79 AD. And of course, you know, they're just seven of tens of thousands. Well, well over 10,000 people are living in Pompeii at the time. So you've. You've created a lovely picture of what Pompeii was actually like. And then we get to the date of the eruption. So let's start talking through it. First off, how do we know so much about the eruption? What types of sources do we have available to kind of track the events that follow?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yeah, so we have multiple things that we can draw on. Of course, the archaeology is the main one. It was preserved in a very specific way with pyroclastic flows, which we'll talk about the conditions of the eruption on that very specific day, down to the heat of it preserved it in a certain way, and that wouldn't necessarily happen on another day. So as archaeologists, we're fortunate and, you know, for lack of a better word, it's not fortunate at all, but it's preserved it in that way. We also have Pliny the Younger's letters to Tacitus explaining this about 20 years later, explaining his firsthand account, events that he experienced of watching this eruption happen. And his uncle, Pliny the Elder, who we've also talked about actually being involved in the rescue efforts and passing away there during the eruption. So we have that side, the very human reaction to it. And then we've got the stratigraphy, so the layers of the eruption that we can reconstruct the events. And even down to the hour now.

[Co-host]

Right, well, let's do it hour by hour. How does the eruption begin?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

So the eruption begins. We've got, obviously, earthquakes that have been happening for a very long time previous, and there would have probably been earthquakes happening at this time while the volcano's starting to erupt. Basically, a column of ash goes up into the sky and it goes miles and miles and miles high. I think it's like multiple Burj Khalifas. It's so, so high. Importantly, it creates a sort of ceiling over the Bay of Naples. So it goes up and is described by Pliny the Younger as like a plane tree.

[Co-host]

A plane tree, okay.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yes, yes. Which anyone that's been to the region today will know these. They're umbrella pines, they're called, because they look like an umbrella. And so it goes out, and it sort of eventually blocks out the sun after a while. So this is around midday to 1pm that this happens. So everyone's confused, of course, because as we've talked about, they didn't know it was necessarily a volcano. They're also gonna start thinking, is this the gods? Are they annoyed with us? You know, is this something that will pass? They wouldn't necessarily know to run from this.

[Co-host]

It feels very apocalyptic.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Very apocalyptic, yeah. And actually, you know, Pliny the Younger does say at one point during his letter that he was struggling to be concerned about it too much, because at the end of the day, if the world's ending, he said, then everyone else is in it. So it's like you can't really. It was something they couldn't quite conceive in their heads. They thought, well, everyone else is in it, and they wouldn't know any different. Which is petrifying. Petrifying. So. So, yes, so this. This umbrella comes out, and after a little While pumice starts raining from the sky, it's very, very light and gray and cold. Ish. It's like warm, but it's not hot at first. And that's raining because they're tiny little pieces and that's creating a blanket over the city. We'll focus on Pompeii for now. The wind is blowing in a south easterly direction specifically. And again, this is the thing. If the wind had been blowing another way, A, some people think it would have been. It's a different date, is another excuse for the date being in October. But B, we would have had different towns preserved in different ways. So it really is.

[Co-host]

That's another important fact, because Pompeii is today. If you've got a map of Mount Vesuvius, it is directly south and east, isn't it? And Herculaneum is also that way. So they are both in the line of fire with that wind.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Exactly, which is why they've become the star of the show in a horrible way. You know, they're the victims of this in the worst case scenario, because that's exactly where the pyroclastic flows are falling. And so after this pumice has been raining for a while, then we've got larger lumps coming down and they're very, very hot. They're at a level that has been measured now that would burn the skin upon contact. So that's terrifying. And because this pumice is building up, it's causing roofs to collapse. So over the hours that are coming, you know, by early evening, it's completely dark. No one can see. The noise of it must have been absolutely petrifying. There was lightning in the clouds because of the effects of the volcanic eruption. And then after a while, at about 7pm, it is thought now the first pyroclastic flow falls down from the column. And this is where the column has become so heavy that it's collapsed in on itself. And it's like an avalanche. And it. And it is very much like an avalanche because apparently it's not that loud either. They would have heard it to an extent, but it was more like a little rumble. And so this pyroclastic flow comes down and completely buries Herculaneum under 20 meters of volcanic material. By the end of the eruption, it would be under 20 meters, which is just.

[Co-host]

It's incredible. And you go to Herculaneum today and you go down to the boat sheds, don't you? And you see this great wall. Actually, to get down there, you have to Go, like, almost through it. And then you realize just that is all volcanic debris that was deposited there.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Just, wow, it's crazy. And most people say to me, oh, yeah, I was on the cliff. And I think, well, that's not a cliff, actually. That's the volcanic material. And that's where the coastline was. Like, that was the beach. So that's crazy. And so, yeah, so Herculaneum was completely destroyed quite early on.

[Host]

About six hours in.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

About six hours in, yeah. And so volcanic eruption. It keeps going. It keeps going. It's getting worse. And the pumice is still falling. People are getting stuck inside houses now because the pumice has got a couple of meters high. It's blocking doors in. This is when we have Pliny the Younger saying they realized, you know, his uncle's had a sleep, he's had a dinner. They're so casual. Especially if you were a Roman elite male, you had to look like you were keeping your composure. That made you a very good, virtuous man. And so Pliny the Younger is depicting his uncle as that way. He might not have been doing this. He might have been completely panicking and running around like a headless chicken, but he's being depicted as being very calm and. And in control of the situation for a reason. And he's saying that, oh, dear, the atriums are starting to, you know, fill up. We realize we can't stay doing what we're doing because it is blocking indoors. And so in a villa just outside of Pompeii very recently, and people might have seen this in the news, a couple of people were found inside a room they'd blocked the door in because your instinct is to hide. Right, in a situation like this, if you don't know better. But they got trapped because the pumice had risen to such a height that they couldn't open the door again. And so they were trapped in a, you know, coffin of their own making, basically.

[Co-host]

Buried alive.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yes, yes. And so that's all going on. And of course, you mentioned Herculaneum. It's worth mentioning the 300 people that were hiding in the boat sheds.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

There were people trying to escape by the sea, which is what Pliny the Elder was trying to help with one of his boats that he was in charge of from Mizzenham. He was a general in charge of that. And there's 300 people that were hiding in the boat sheds. And until, you know, the 1980s, when archaeologists found them, we thought that most people had got out of Herculaneum pretty much that everyone had been evacuated. No, they were all down by the coast. And so it's mostly women and elderly people and children inside the boat sheds. And outside of the boat sheds on the beach are mostly men and soldiers and horses actually, and boats. So this giving you a pattern of what's happening over time. Okay, so people are still trying to escape hours and hours and hours later. And then the pyroclastic flows start hitting Pompeii in the early hours of the next day. So we've gone hours along.

[Co-host]

So the first pyroclastic flow that hit Herculaneum didn't reach Pompeii. So that's why Herculaneum story ends earlier. But Pompeii is still, its story is still going at this time.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Pompeii is still going and people are still escaping. But there's a lull in the pumice flow in the early hours. It's around sunrise sometime. There seems to be a lull in the almost full. And so it must have been like almost. I know there's the volcanic eruption, but I've got this feeling of like this lull in the sound as well, you know. Cause obviously people are screaming and trying to get out, but, but it's been a long time now and the pumice falling, the rain sound of that would, would have stopped. And so people start going back into the city.

[Co-host]

Oh no. They think it's ended. Okay.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yeah. And you would, you know, why would they know any better? So anyone that's gone out to the villas outside or further than that are starting to come back because they're looking for their family and friends because they want to go and get possessions. You know, they don't know that something else is about to happen and it's going to get a lot worse. And so in the early hours, around 6am we think a pyroclastic flow falls from the column and it gets to Pompeii and it hits the northern wall, but it doesn't get over the wall.

[Co-host]

Oh really? So it actually does stop that super hot avalanche in its tracks. That stone wall.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yes, this stone wall that has been there for hundreds of years, which was the original boundary of Pompeii, has protected them once again in a funny sort of way. So this would have really freaked everybody out in there because at this point breathing would be almost impossible. They're still trying to pull people out of debris and get people out from places. There's dogs crying underneath beds because they're stuck there and they're chained up. It's just chaos. And they're trying to cover their mouths. And then a pyroclastic flow very soon after that starts coming down again, but this time it breaches the wall. It comes over the wall because it's such a bigger one. It's got more force behind it, and it takes out the city. And everyone that is there was killed instantly with this flow that hit them. The heat was incredible. Hundreds of centigrade. And they would have, yeah, been killed instantly, which is a small comfort. But the petrifying circumstances for those very many hours before is not a comfort.

[Co-host]

No, it's a very chilling retelling, but it's like, it's a key part of the story. And the, dare I say, bodies that we have today are the bodies of people who died in that pyroclastic flow instantly, or are they of the people who did slowly asphyxiate, buried in pumice? Like, whose remains do we have surviving?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yes, there's a. A good, like, not a majority, but a good amount of the people that have been found. So we found about 1600-1700 victims so far. So when you base that on 20,000 people, that's, you know, a death toll, I think, of between sort of 8 and 11% ish. So it's not as big as you think for an eruption of this size. And so the people that were found in the city, there's a lot of them that have been found in the pumice level, which means that they have asphyxiated. So they've suffocated or they have been hit by debris. So actually, not all of them were killed by this pyroclastic flow. There is a good amount of them that were killed in these other layers, but then the pyroclastic flows hit, and it's more than half of the people, but they were in really different positions around the city. We've got a lot of people coming out of the gates, flowing out of the gates and found on the streets outside. We've even got a person, a man in a tree. Yeah. So he was hiding and he thought, I can get above it, you know, so clearly they're seeing it coming and it goes so fast. So he's trying to get above it. We've got people on top of the pumice layers that other people are in, dead. We've got horses lying on their sides that have suffocated. But then we've also got the people that were hit by the pyroclastic flow. And because of the nature of the heat and the suddenness of it. They do this thing called the boxer pose, where all of their muscles contract and they end up putting their hands above the. Usually above their face as if they're about to box. And. And that's why they're found in these contorted positions. Even dogs and pigs have been found in these funny contorted positions. And so they are able to preserve those with the Plaster of Paris method, where the, you know, their bodies leave a cavity when they decay. Skeleton's still in there, mind you. And then you fill it with plaster of Paris. You can take the material around it, which cemented, by the way, around them, and then you have this form, and you can see the clothes that they're wearing, the faces, the jewelry. It's crazy. I. And we've got about 100 plaster casts of those people. They don't do that anymore. And some of them were destroyed in World War II bombing, which is unfortunate. But overall, they're starting to conduct DNA analysis on these people. For example, we had a couple who were sort of thought as mother and father with two children under some stairs. They've since been found to be completely unrelated. The children were unrelated, the people were unrelated, and they were both men. This could be, for example, a case of slaves in a household hiding under the stairs. They wouldn't have probably gone. They might have been ordered to stay there, for example. And so these things are very, very, very hard to look at, the plaster cast. But it's very important to remember that they are not things, but people, and that their skeletons are inside there. But they're also giving us a huge amount of evidence because they were all killed evenly, regardless of their status. It was a leveler, this disaster. And so we can learn about them not from how they died from disease or whatever, but all at the same time. So for an archaeologist, it's a very rich source.

[Co-host]

A rich source, but of course, like a horrible story. But at the same time, that tragic end is why bringing to light those figures we talked about earlier, the people who lived in Pompeii before, is even more fascinating to kind of get more of a sense of how they lived. I mean, you mentioned earlier, when you're talking about, like, that apocalyptic sense that surely many of them were feeling when they saw, you know, the sky, well, go dark and that it covered the sun, this pumice cloud. I remember talking to Gabriel Zuktriegel last year, and he had this amazing story that apparently they found evidence of an early Christian community in Pompeii, Yes. And the mention of fire and brimstone, the original fire and brimstone of Sodom and Gomorrah written on a wall in Pompeii. So imagine if that person was still alive, that early Christian who'd written Sodom and Gomorrah on the wall, and then all of a sudden he's seeing a real life fire and brimstone raining down on him and Pompey. That's an amazing thing to think about.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

I know, it's crazy. I think it's these layers of these experiences, these human experiences, and how they would have been trying to conceive of this immense disaster that was happening in front of them to their home. And details like that are incredible. Not only are we getting an insight into the changing empire that's happening in quite a significant way, but also, yeah, how they would try to conceive of these disasters. And I mentioned the giants being under the volcano, for example. Pliny talks about how some people said that they thought they could see giants in the ashes coming out. So they're trying to understand why this is happening to them. And, you know, the area was also known for having holes that go down to hell and things, you know, the Roman equivalent of hell. So everyone would have had their different ideas of what's happening. And again, yeah, that's very human, isn't it? We try and find reason in these things.

[Co-host]

A kind of international part of it as well, that, yes, there are people worshiping the Roman gods, but Egyptian gods. We mentioned Jews, early Christians and all that, and how they're contemplating the stories. It's amazing. Just I could ask so many more questions around this. I guess we should mention that. I mean, the aftermath, there are survivors. This isn't the end of Pompeii's story. Pompeii does have an afterlife following the eruption.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

It does. And again, we never talk about it. It's sort of forgotten. There was definitely a community living there. And again, this is being found in the archeology now they're sort of baking there and creating sort of ad hoc properties on top of this layer. And you know, it was under about 6 meters of volcanic material, which cemented particularly as there was after rainfall, it cements even more. So they were trying to dig down. If you imagine a graveyard with little things poking out, that's kind of how it was. So you'd have been able to see where the amphitheater was and they'd have been like, right, okay, so the amphitheater's there. There's a bit of a column poking out there from the Forum. My house should be around here somewhere. So they're tunneling down, trying to get their things, you know, and people would have gone back not knowing that these pyroclastic flows had hit necessarily. If they'd gone to Rome, for example, and come back, I can't imagine the shock of finding that. Also, I don't know how people found each other afterwards. We don't have the. They didn't have the luxury of communicating in that way and becoming refugees in their own, you know, country. They had literally lost their town.

[Co-host]

Was there a scheme or anything that we know of that they tried to kind of get people back together and help them in aftermath of this crisis?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Yes. So the Emperor Titus was in. In power at this time, and he set up a relief fund and they took the money of anyone that hadn't managed to survive and put that into the relief fund as well. But he did send people to. He went to Campania to survey the evidence of this disaster himself, as they say. And they basically decided there wasn't anything they could do. And so they almost. They pretty much wrote Pompeii and Herculaneum off and took it off the maps, essentially. And after a while, it did just get forgotten. It just became a footnote in. In history.

[Co-host]

Until, of course, last couple of centuries, where Pompeii, Herculaneum and alike have become one of the best, well, ancient archaeological sites in the world, continuing to inspire so many people, including yourself. You've done so much there and you've now written this book, shining a light on these everyday people who got caught up in the eruption. As you also mentioned earlier, we won't spoil it as to whether they survived or whether they didn't. But, you know, it's not that they all died, is it?

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

No. I've chosen their fates based on either the things I know about them from the archaeological record, or to give a cross section of the fates of people in Pompeii. And they're representing those fates. And so we have different fates. And no, I won't tell you, but what I will say is that when I was writing the conclusion, it's one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. And that sounds very dramatic, but putting into words the disaster that they were experiencing, the fallout from that, the chaos, the panic, it was very, very hard to come to terms with. I was in bits. I was crying every couple of days. Cause I sort of put myself in the position of people that we've got records of today in tragedy and watching videos of events and trying to understand the very human element of that. And you have to put a lot of yourself into that. And so it was hard to write about their fates. But really important to know that yes, people did survive this. As we mentioned, it's only about 8 to 11%, which considering the scale of this disaster, touch wood, that's what it remains at. But there's still a third of the city to be excavated. So we are, you know, we will

[Co-host]

see so much more to find out. So many more books like this in the future to do as well. Jess, this has been absolutely fantastic. Last but certainly not least, your book

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

is called the Lost Voices of Pompeii and it is out next.

[Co-host]

Fantastic. Jess, thanks so much for coming on the show.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

[Co-host]

Well, there you go.

[Host]

There was Dr. Jessica Venner talking you through those last chaotic days of Pompeii and the lives of these key figures that were living in that roman town

[Co-host]

almost 2000 years ago when Mount Vesuvius erupted.

[Host]

Thank you so much for listening to the this episode.

[Co-host]

I hope you enjoyed listening to it

[Host]

just as much as I did recording it with Jess.

[Co-host]

Now, if you've been enjoying the ancients

[Host]

recently, please make sure to follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Co-host]

That really helps us. You'll be doing us a big favor

[Host]

if you'd also be kind enough to leave us a rating as well, where we would all really appreciate that. Lastly, don't forget, you can also sign up to History hit for hundreds of hours of original document documentaries with a new release every week. Sign [e-mail] subscribe.

[Co-host]

That's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.

[Dr. Jessica Venner]

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