C (3:08)

Kim.

D (3:13)

Hyun Jin, it is such a pleasure to have you back on the podcast.

C (3:17)

Thank you for inviting me again. It's great to see you.

D (3:19)

You're more than welcome. It's been a couple of years since we recorded those two bumper episodes on Attila the Hun. But the story of the Huns, it's so much more than just Attila and this westward expansion into Europe, isn't it? And that feels to be defined by this other great Hunnic empire, if not superpower, that emerges in Central Asia, the White Huns.

C (3:41)

Yes, indeed. The White Huns may be unfamiliar to many in the west, but they had an enormous impact on historical developments in the Iranian world, in Central Asia, and of course, also in India as well. And so certainly it is a topic worth talking about.

D (3:58)

So when and where are we talking about with the story of the White Huns? How many centuries are we going to be covering?

C (4:04)

We will be covering, roughly. It depends on how far we want to go. So that their history begins in the fourth century, in the middle of the fourth century. And later, Hephthalite, or White Hun remnants, they are still around until the middle of the 9th century. Now, I don't think we'll get as far as the 9th century, but certainly we can cover the imperial period, which goes up to the middle of the 6th century A.D. it's just such an.

D (4:32)

Amazing story because as you highlighted here in the west, we don't know the name White Hunt. So if you've heard about it, it's a very enigmatic story, but an extraordinary one. My first question is, why do we call them White Huns? Why are they given a color?

C (4:47)

Yes, it's because the Huns identified cardinal directions by colors. And so in Inner Asia, imperial states usually identify. They divide their empires into constituent parts, and usually those parts would be associated with a cardinal direction. And that cardinal direction is then equated with a particular color. East is identified with the color blue, and the north with the color black, west with white, and red with South. And so White Huns designate the Western Huns. So there are these four principal components. But black and blue is combined to form the eastern half of the imperial stage in the Hunnic context. And white and red also form the western half. So the Western Huns would have precedence in the Hunnic imperial structure over the Red Huns and the Blue Huns would have precedence over the Black Huns and the east would usually outrank the west as well in the imperial confederation. So that is why the White Huns are referred to as the White Huns. And unfortunately Procopius, our Roman source in the 6th century, heard this and thought, oh, that must mean the White Huns are very fair and they're white skinned and not swarthy or reddish like the European Huns supposedly were. But of course the name White Hun has nothing to do with skin color and has everything to do with their position in the wider Hunnic world. They were the Western Huns.

D (6:28)

But it's interesting that you stress Western Huns there because at the end of the day you do also have Attila and Huns even further west going into Europe. So were they seen as almost beyond the colour scale if in that mindset they already see the White Huns in Central Asia as being in the West?

C (6:44)

Well, I think the European Huns would have been seen as the Northern Huns. So I think there is some evidence to suggest that they were the Black Huns. And so the White Huns are western when you look at it from the perspective of the Blue Huns who stay in the east. And so from the perspective of the Blue Huns, the White Huns who invade Central Asia and Persia are to their west, whereas the European Huns are of course to their northwest. So they are the Northern Huns. And of course, after a while, originally, of course, they formed part of a single political entity. They most probably formed part of a single political entity. The Chinese sources definitely say that. But by the 5th century we are not looking at a unified political entity. The European Huns Atlas Huns are a different political entity from say the White Huns. And in fact, Chinese sources tell us that. They tell us that. You shouldn't confuse the two groups. They're both Huns, but they're ruled by different rulers, indicating that political division had taken place by then. Those empires were too massive by that stage to be a single ruler. So the political unity of the Hunnic world had broken down certainly by the 5th century.

D (8:01)

You mentioned there Chinese sources and also earlier this figure of Procopius. So, Huan Jing, can you let us know what types of source material we have for learning about the White Huns and their story in Central Asia?

C (8:14)

So in terms of source material, the majority of our sources are Chinese and the most important source is the Weishi. The Weishi is the dynastic history, the annals of the Northern Wei dynasty of China. Now, the Northern Wei were not a native Chinese dynasty. They were a Mongolic people who conquered northern China. So we call them the Tuoba Shenbei in Mandarin. But in early Middle Chinese, their name was probably pronounced something like Tokbal Serbi. Now, these people, of course, being Mongolic and having originated in the steppes, they knew the steppes very well. They knew inner Asia very well. They were contemporaneous with the Vaishans. They had diplomatic relations with the Vaishans, exchanged ambassadors, so they knew the Vaishans very well. And so the Weishu is the most critically important source because they provide us with the most accurate information about the Huitanic Empire. The other source that is important for our purposes is the Liangshi. This is another Chinese historical source that is roughly contemporaneous with the Weishang. Well, it is actually contemporaneous with the White Hans, but it is preserved. A lot of it is preserved in a later source. And so in that sense, because of issues associated with preservation, etcetera, not all of it can be seen as contemporaneous, but it does provide us with very important information about the Weishan State as well. That source comes from southern China, so from Chinese China, ethnically Chinese China. The Weiliyue, which is an even earlier source from the third century, is also important because it helps us to geographically identify the Hunnic state before it splinters into the Black Huns, the White tongues, et cetera. So those are the eastern sources. And we also have inscriptions and numismatic evidence from Central Asia and India. These are in a variety of languages. The White Huns themselves are used all kinds of languages for the purposes of administration. So they would strike coins or issue administrative documents in Sogdian, which is a Central Asian language. Bactrian. Yes. It's in Uzbekistan today. Yes. And then, of course, Bactrian, which was a language spoken in northern Afghanistan. Middle Persian, which is the language of the Iranian Sasanian Empire, which was conquered by the White Huns. The Brahmi script, of course, this is the script of northern India. And the Gandhara script, which was a script which gradually disappeared, but was used in what is now northern Pakistan. So the Whiteans used all of these scripts as well as, of course, their native language. They refer to themselves as Huns, but they also take on a variety of identities in order to rule these disparate regions. So there are many inscriptions and coins that give us some information about the White Huns coming from Central Asia in particular, and also from northern India. And then we of course, have the Greco Roman sources from the 6th century, which also do provide us with some tidbits of information. Priscus, who is a historian writing in the fifth century, is actually the best of these sources, but unfortunately he only survives in fragments. So he does tell us something about the Kidarites, who we will talk about, I think later, the first dynasty to rule the White Hunnic Empire. And then Procopius later tells us, well, gives us tits and bits of information about the Hephthalites, who are the second imperial dynasties who ruled the White Hunnic state.

D (11:53)

It is such an amazing part of the world that the White Huns will ultimately rule over, as you mentioned, all those different cultures. Sogdian, Bactrian, Persian, Gandhara, the Guptas in India as well. And this amazing kind of meshing together, as had happened, and as we've done in a previous podcast episode on the Kushan Empire, once again you get that amazing mix of cultures, and we'll explore that as time goes on. We've got inscriptions, we've got numismatic evidence in coinage. Has there been much archaeological work done in Central Asia that has revealed remains from the White Huns or DNA evidence on particular burials?

C (12:28)

Yes, not so much in terms of DNA evidence. I wish more research could be done in Central Asia, but obviously given the political instability of the region, and unfortunately, the political center of the White Hunic state was Bactria, which, as you know, lies in northern Afghanistan, which is current north Afghanistan. And of course, archaeological research there is extremely difficult given the unfortunate modern political circumstances of the region. And so, yes, the archaeological research has been done in the past, but it is limited. But we do have a ton of numismatic evidence which helps us to identify the wish Huns and also find out about the names of some of their kings. But of course, the. The main problem is that a narrative history for the Weishans is largely lacking. We are almost entirely dependent upon records left by the enemy of the Huishans, that is their enduring misfortune that their dynastic chronicles did not survive. And so we're dependent on what the Sasanian Persians tell us about them and what the Romans tell us about them, and of course, what the Chinese tell us about them. The Chinese sources tend to be more neutral, and so they are, for the most part, a bit more reliable.

D (13:43)

You mentioned there, the Kidarites. Let's start exploring what we know about the Huns, beginning with the Kidarites and the forming of this White Hun state in Central Asia. How do the White Huns end up in what is today Uzbekistan and Afghanistan and start forming a state there?

C (14:02)

Yes. So the Weilyue, which is the source of it that we mentioned earlier, the earliest source that is important for our consideration, that source tells us that the Xiongnu, after they had been expelled from their native homeland in Mongolia, settled in the Altai region. So this is western Mongolia, eastern Kazakhstan, that area, and from there, and the Wadiu tells us that the Huns were situated there until the middle of the third century, then thereafter the Weish, that other source from northern China, which was the dynastic chronicle of the Tuoba Shenbei, Northern Wei dynasty, that source tells us that the weaker segment of the Huns were left behind in that region and eventually conquered much of eastern Kazakhstan and became the Yueban Xiongnu or the Yueban Huns. So these presumably were the Blue Huns, the people who stayed in the east, but they were visibly weaker when the Northern Way compared them with the other Hunnic states further west. And so the chroniclers of the Northern Way tell us that these more westerly Huns who broke off from the Blue Huns or the Yueban Huns, were much more powerful. So they are referred to as the Strong Huns. And by the middle of the 4th century, the Wei Shu tells us these Huns conquered Sogdia. So they conquer the Kangju kingdom that used to rule over what is now Uzbekistan, that is about 350 A.D. and then just 10 years later, they conquer much of Afghanistan from the Sasanian Persians. The Sasanian Persians, at this time ruled by Shapur ii, ruled over Afghanistan via a collateral branch of their dynasty, the so called Kushan Shahs. So these are Sasanian royals who after the Sasanian conquest of the Kushan Empire, assumed the rulership of the Kushans. So they are Persians ruling over the Kushans or former Kushan territories in Afghanistan. And the Huns, the White Huns, come over and they conquer northern Afghanistan from the Sassanians and end the Sassanian Kushanshahs. But then these Huns, the Kidarites, so then after they take over, assume the title Kushanshah, which then throws off a whole generation of scholars who then thought, oh, these Kidarites must then be not Huns, but Iranian Kushans who had a revival of sorts. So there was a lot of confusion around this. And very famous Inderasian scholar of Japanese extraction, Professor Inoki, fell for this, unfortunately. And he thought that the Huns were an Iranian people, a native Iranian people who reconstituted the Kushan Empire. But of course, more recent numismatic evidence that was studied by scholars has shown conclusively that that is definitely not the case. The language that was spoken by the incoming White Huns was most likely a Turkic language. After they had settled in these regions, of course, they used all these other languages as well for administrative purposes, but their original language, the names of their early kings are almost definitely Turkish. So the reason why the early Vaishuns are referred to as the Kidarites is because of coins that refer to one of their early kings. The name is Kedara. Now that is almost certainly not his personal name because Kydara is probably just a local corruption of the old Turkic word kidirti, which means West. So the color signifies West. Kidiriti or Kidara just means the Western king. And so that's why in Byzantine sources, for example Eastern Roman sources, they're also referred to as the Kidarites, the Westerners. In other words, these Kidarites settle in Sogdia and there is a certain king called Ularg who is mentioned ruling in Sogdia and he calls himself Ularg, the King of the Huns and Kushan Shah. Right. So he immediately assumes that title. And because the Huns assumed the role of Kushan kings, even the Chinese became a bit confused. So the Chinese leisure would provide two origin myths about the Kidarites and the Heptalites, the white ones. And they would say that, oh, according to one version, they share the same ancestors as the Gauche, these Turks or Turkic speaking peoples in modern Kazakhstan and in Mongolia. And of course, yes, that's correct, that's the correct version. And of the early Vaishans definitely spoke a Turkic language. But then they say, oh, they're also descended from the Kushans or the Yueqi, because in their diplomatic correspondences with the Chinese, the White Hans did exactly the same thing. They said, oh, we are White Hans, but we are also Kushan Shahs. And so that threw off not just people in the west, but in the East. In other words, they adopted multiple identities simultaneously in order to facilitate conquests and to rule their territories more effectively. Obviously, I think what they were trying to do was appeal to the native Kushanized population of Afghanistan who obviously would have felt hostile towards the Persians who had conquered them earlier. And so you can imagine this scenario of the Vaishans coming in and claiming to be the restorers of the Kushan Empire and pretending as if they're some kind of liberators. So it was a clever political strategy. Foreign.

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D (22:11)

And it's something you see time and time again throughout history. Like Alexander the Great entering Egypt and portraying himself as a liberator of Egypt from the Persians. So interesting how the White Huns adopt something similar with the Kidarites. So the Kidarites have taken over Sogdia and Bactria. So Afghanistan, Uzbekistan area. They've done this consolidation. But do we Know, if you've still got the Sasanian Persians to their west, of course you've got the Hindu Kush to their southeast as well. What do the Kidarites do next? Do they just try and strengthen their hold over these core regions or do they do more expansion?

C (22:48)

Oh, they immediately start to expand. So they first consolidate their conquests in Central Asia and then by the late 380s thereabouts, certainly by the end of the 4th century, they have already conquered Gandhara, so what is now northern Pakistan. And they are launching raids into Gupta India. They also of course invade the Sasanian Empire.

D (23:13)

Sorry, Hyunjin. Gupta India. That's the Gupta dynasty. Gupta Empire. That was the big power at the time in India.

C (23:19)

Yes, exactly. That was the dynasty that was the power that was ruling over India at the time.

D (23:23)

Right.

C (23:24)

These invasions would become more pronounced in the 5th century. In the first half of the 5th century, Gupta inscriptions left by Skandha Gupta, who was a ruler of the Gupta Empire in the middle of the fifth century. He tells us that in his inscriptions, Skande Gupta tells us that his empire had been virtually destroyed. He had just managed to repel these invaders. And so he claims victory in the end. But he does tell us that prior to this so called victory, his state had been almost completely destroyed. And the reason why the Kidarite pressure on the Guptas eased was because the Kidarites themselves during that time was being eliminated by the the second imperial dynasty that took over, which was the Hephthalites. And so the Kidarites invade India, they also invade Persia. And so the Sassanian kings were forced to pay tribute to the Kidarites. And that tribute payment continued until the middle of the 5th century when new waves of invaders from the east suddenly put a stop to all of this. So there is a inner Asian empire in Mongolia that starts to form in the last few decades of the 4th century. This is the so called Rouron Khaganate. Ruron is the modern Chinese pronunciation of the name. And the Chinese glyphs that were used to write this name means Wriggling Worms.

D (24:49)

Wow.

C (24:50)

Obviously this is an exonym. The Rouran would not have called themselves Wriggling Worms.

D (24:55)

Wriggling Worms, beware.

C (24:56)

It was derogatory name that was given to them by the Chinese dynasts who hated them. But their original name might have approximated Aguar. And so there is some speculation which would identify them with the later Avars, the so called Pseudo Avars. People claiming to the Avars later turn up in Europe as Well, in the middle of the 6th century. So if we were to assume that the Rouran were the Avars, that helps us to understand what happens next. There is a group of Var, presumably Avars, who are subject to the main Avars, who then migrate west as part of a vanguard. So the Avars decide to expand west, and a group of them intrude into the White Hunic realm. And so these group of intruders, these Varsity, are led by a new upcoming dynasty called the Hepthals, or the Yopdals, and we call them the Hepthalites. So they come over, they conquer, but of course they constitute a tiny minority. And so what happens is a mixing of the original White Hunic elite and these newcomers. And so our sources tell us that the two aristocratic rulers of the Huns in Central Asia are the Huns and the Vars. Some of them are even called Var Huns, indicating the fusing of those two people. So there is a dynastic shift that occurs, but the White Hunic state remains largely intact. The Kidarites obviously don't go down without a fight. They try to hold on, but their Sasanian vassals use this opportunity to launch an attack against them from the west as well. So Yazdegerd ii, the Sasanian king, forms an alliance with the Hephthalites in the middle of the fifth century. And the Kidarites are initially they prevail against the Persians, but they're defeated militarily by the Hephthalites. And so after the Kidarites are expelled from Bactria, the Hephthalites and the Sassanians carve up what is left of the Kidarite positions in Central Asia. But then Hepthalite kings decide that they're going to take all of it. That's just half of it. So as soon as the Kidarites are expelled to India, the Hepthalites decide to turn the tables on the Sasanians. And so they swallow up the rest of what was formerly Kidarite territory in Afghanistan. And the Sasanians, of course, are not happy. And this leads to a war between the Sasanians and the Hepthalites.

D (27:41)

I think just before we go into that, because there are some interesting names that we've covered there and almost just a recap of what you've said there, Hyunjin, because it's a fascinating end to the Kidarites, this first dynasty of the White Huns, how within the space of a century, they formed this new kingdom in Central Asia, in Uzbekistan and Afghanistan, gained some Successes against the Sasanians almost subjugated them in the west, taken over Gandhara, northern Pakistan as well, almost completely destroyed the Guptas. And then all of a sudden, like, I guess one of the big problems of having a, you know, a kingdom in that part of the world is you get a new threat from the east coming in. Persia revives and allies itself with this new threat, the Hephthalites, and then the Guptas, I guess, revive as well. So all of a sudden, the Kidarites have been looking so successful and expanding, and then ultimately they fall because of the amount of external pressures on them. So it's really interesting how we do get to that main dynasty we think of or which seems to be central to the story of the White Huns, the Hephthalites. It actually comes after a fantastic rise and then a brutal fall of the preceding dynasty, the Kidarites.

C (28:50)

Yes, yes. And I think the Hephthalites were very opportunistic as well. And the Kidarites, it takes decades for the Kidarites to be phased out. So the Kidarites in India, they survive until the 470s. And it's only towards the end of the 5th century that the Heptalites managed to completely conquer them. And so Kidorite ambassadors visit the Chinese cause in order to presumably form an alliance against the Heptalites. Nothing comes of that effort, and in the end, they are swallowed up by the Hepthalites. And there is another interesting group called the Alcons. These are the Red Huns, Alpha Scarlet or Red and Khon, of course, Hun. And so these are the Southern Huns. And so the Kidarites, of course, ruled over the region covered by the Al Horns in India. But then it is highly likely that they were removed and replaced by rulers imposed by the Hepthalites. So our Chinese sources tell us that the later Alcon rulers or the Hunnic rulers in India were vassals of the Vaishans and had to obey the Vaishns in every way. And so there is that dynastic shift that happens there as well, but that only occurs in the final decades of the fifth century. So, yes, it was a spectacular fall, but they struggled for nearly 50 years, maybe slightly less than that. It was a losing effort, but at least they didn't go out as spectacularly as the Heptalites. I mean, the Heptalites, of course, they survive hundreds of years. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

D (30:30)

Don't get too far ahead there, Hyunjin. We don't want to we don't want to reveal the end just yet, but if we continue the story right, the Kidarites are now out of the way. The Hephthalites have taken over. And I need to make sure I don't say Heptaphylites. I keep thinking Heptaphlon, but Hephthalites is, how we say it, an uneasy alliance between the Hephthalites and the Sasanian Persians to get rid of the Kidarites. But as you were saying, that doesn't last for long. It's not long before they start looking westwards to Persia and the lands they control.

C (31:00)

Yes, yes, definitely. So the Heptalites, they seize former Kidarite territory in Afghanistan and this leads to war with the Sasanians and the Persian king Peroz. So yesterday, Gerit II dies. Peroz becomes the new king, and he launches a series of attacks against the Hephthalites in order to recover Bactria from them. And in all cases, it ends in disaster. So the first two attempts end in him being captured and having to be ransomed and having to agree to pay tribute to the Hephthalites, as the Sasanians did before to the Kidarites. But Serpirous just refused to give up. So he made a third attempt to topple the Hepthalites in Bactria. And unfortunately, the Heptalites had run out of patience with him. And so in that third battle, he was killed together with his entire army. And then Peroz's successor, Kavad, is literally placed on the throne of Sasanian Persia by a Hephthalite army that invades and takes over. And so from that point onwards, until the downfall of the Hepthalites, the Sasanians have to pay tribute decades, for literally more than half a century. And an enormous quantity of Sasanian coins are, as a result, present in Hephthalite territory. These very elaborate Sasanian coins that are then overstamped with the Hephthalite tamga to indicate that these were submitted as tribute to the Hephthalite king. And this creates a huge problem for the Shah Anshah, the king of kings of Iran, because the Sasanians justified their usurpation of rule over Iran from the preceding Arsakid dynasty by pointing out that unlike the Arsakids, they were more effective in combating Iran's external enemies. And now we're in the situation where we were in a worse situation than the Parthians. At least the Parthians managed to push the Romans back. In this case, it was complete conquest and subjugation. And so the Sasanians start to develop this national myth. They start to change some of the traditional tales associated with the foundation of Iran. And so the legendary house of the Kyanians, who supposedly were these mythical kings who founded Iran, their stories are altered to accommodate this mysterious group called Turah, the Turanians, who are, of course, the Huns. And according to the mythology that is created here, coexistence with them is necessary for the time being. But then ultimately, Iran is liberated by the Kyenian kings, and the Turanians are expelled after a brief phase of Turanian invasion and domination. And so by sort of changing the story that were associated, the stories that were associated with the Kaenians and telling the Iranian people that even the holy Caenian kings of the past had been conquered by these raiders from the east. So the fact that we've lost to the Huns is not so shameful after all. And like the Kaenian kings, we will be liberated in the future. That kind of rhetoric has to be specifically created in order to basically skirt around some very uncomfortable questions.

D (34:32)

It shows, doesn't it, how sometimes, once again, in the west, we think of the Romans and the Sasanians being the two great enemies fighting each other. And yet, for the Sasanians, it sounds like the White Huns were an even bigger problem on their doorstep. And also how the Sasanians, they did not escape, they did not evade the wrath of the Huns, as it were. But Hunjin, you also mentioned in passing there how the White Huns, they stamped their Sasanian coins or something like that, with a particular mark. What was this mark?

C (35:00)

Yes, this is the Tamgas. These are the tamgas. So the insignia that are used by Inner Asian stage entities. So the Kidarites. So these are, like, I'm almost tempted to sort of compare them to European coat of arms that are used by aristocratic houses. And so every aristocratic and royal dynasty during this time in Inner Asia has their own tamga. And so in all of their coins, the Hepthalites, the Alcons, the Kytarites, they imprint their tamgas to indicate that this is coinage issued by them. And that is how we can identify which coin is Kidarite, which coin is Hepthalite, et cetera. And these Sassanian coins, which are obviously not minted or produced by the Hepthalites, have these tangles stamped on them, indicating that they were meant for the Hepthalite court as tribute.

D (35:55)

The Hepthalites, they subdue the Sasanian Persians, they've secured their western flank, but their military conquests don't stop there. If I'm correct, where else do they look to expand?

C (36:06)

Yes, so I mentioned earlier that the Heptalites were originally vassals of the Rouran Khaganate, or the Avar Khaganish in Mongolia and Turkestan.

D (36:16)

The Wriggly Worms.

C (36:18)

Wriggly Worms, yes, the Worm people, according to the Chinese. These horrifyingly dirty people, at least according to the Chinese anyway. But the Rouran Khaganash started to weaken shortly after the behaviorite conquest of. And so once the Hepthalites become the ruling elite and the ruling dynasts of the White Hunic Empire, they actually start to expand into former Avar territory. So they conquer the Tarim Basin and expand as far east as Urumqi, which is, of course, the current sort of capital of Chinese Xinjiang, the western province of Xinjiang in modern day China. And so that puts them in almost direct contact with the northern way, these Mongolic peoples who are ruling over northern China. And so there is frequent embassies going to and fro between the Waitanic court and the Northern Wei court. And the Hephthalites do not put all their eggs in one basket. So they communicate with these northern sort of dynasts in northern China, with the Shenbei, but they also communicate with the southern native Chinese dynasts as well, in order to play one off against the other. And so they expand in that direction. They also expand south, obviously. So these Alcon, or Red Hunnic kings in India, who were vassals of the Hephthalites, they continue the Hunnic expansion into India, which had been halted because of the fall of the Kidarites. So kings like Tora Mana and his son Mihirakula, these are vassal kings ruling over the Redhounds or the Alcons. They conquer much of northern India. So the Gupta capital is sacked by them. Indian sources tell us that there are these sort of local sort of minor statelets in the Deccan region and also in northern India, which have left us with some inscriptions. So there are inscriptions left by the Hunnic kings who say, oh, we were victorious and we conquered everybody. And then there are these other Indian sort of inscriptions that say, oh, we vanquish the Huns and push the. Pushed them out and wiped them out, and so and so and so forth. Who is correct? I think, given what happens next, I think it's reasonable to assume that the Huns were not wiped out. They do remain in India for a long, long time. And in fact certain segments of the Hephthalites who have basically gone native and have adopted local Indian identities as the Gujarat approach Pratiharas, they end up ruling northern India until the 11th century when they are displaced by the Turkic Ghaznabids, these new Islamic invaders who then take over. So they're around for a long time. They weren't wiped out.

D (39:02)

So they do this expansion eastwards as well. You mentioned, like Urumqi and also into India. So that by the time we get to I guess the mid or approaching the mid 6th century AD is the white Hunnic Empire. Is it the superpower of the time? Is it the largest empire in the world at that moment?

C (39:22)

Oh, yes, absolutely. It is the largest territorial state.

D (39:26)

Wow. You don't. Because you don't know that.

C (39:27)

Yes, nobody knows that.

D (39:29)

You don't hear about that in the west, do you?

C (39:30)

Yes, they are the largest empire in the world at the time. And this is an empire that stretches from western China to the borders of the Eastern Roman Empire, from Kazakhstan to Central India. It is a massive place. And so this is probably the largest empire. Well, probably the old Shomnu Empire in Central Asia was possibly as large or slightly larger, but certainly one of the largest empires to have ever existed until that time.

D (39:57)

That's absolutely amazing.

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D (41:18)

If we now explore how this empire functioned for a bit, I must start with the military component. Given how much land they conquer. Do we have any idea how the White Hunnic army functioned? Should we be imagining just lots and lots and lots of horse archers or more complex than that?

C (41:36)

Or much more complex than that. So the white ones were, well, according to Procopius and also Chinese sources, incredibly sophisticated and civilized in their eyes. In the sense that the military backbone of the Hepthalite state obviously were the pastoralist populations that provided the state with much of its military manpower. But there were numerous urban centers, in fact irrigation canals in Central Asia. In places like Sogdia and other infrastructure that is needed for the production of surplus foodstuffs, that potential is reaches its they reach their maximum potential during the the rule of the Hepthalites. So the Hepthalites were very, very effective in using local resources. Those resources of course were also used to augment their military power. So the cavalry which formed the as usual forms the backbone of their armies. Yes, they did have mounted archers. But if you look at mural paintings and depictions of Hephthalite troops, these are not simple barbarians clad in fur. They have the most recent up to date military equipment. Their armor is incredibly sophisticated, lamellar armor which could effectively deflect arrows. They are literally medieval knights covered from head to toe in armor. And their horses are armored as well. So they had heavy cavalry, they had light cavalry, they had infantry as well, of course. And every military, sort of everything that is conducive to maintaining a well functioning military. You would see that in the White Hunic army.

D (43:18)

So Lamella, there is that kind of a heavy leather idea, is it? Or something more than that?

C (43:23)

No, no, no, it's iron plates.

D (43:25)

Oh, my apologies.

C (43:26)

These are small sort of iron plates that are then sewn together. So if you have just plate armor, then what happens is that the Hunnic bow is so powerful that the plate would be immediately penetrated and that would lead to instant death. So if the arrow strikes you from a distance of about 100 meters, then it is almost certain death. And so those plate armor were useless. But the Lamora armor was designed in such a way that it would usually deflect most of these arrows and make them bounce off. Even if they did penetrate, there were other layers beneath which would minimize the damage that is caused by them. So this was top notch military technology of the time.

D (44:10)

So let's talk about subjugated people of the White Huns. How did the White Huns treat the people that they conquered? Because you mentioned the T word earlier. Tribute.

C (44:20)

Yes. So this was a tributary empire. The Hephthalites, they of course governed directly their core territories, so that is Sogdia, Bactria, Gandhara, etc. But when it came to areas that were further away, especially if they came into contact with a larger political entity, like for example, the Sasanians, what they usually did was not just replace the local rulers and then take over, but they would co opt these local rulers and try to rule through them, which of course was much easier. They just, in other words, co opt the existing administrative apparatus and govern these states via existing administrative structures. But in the case of the local population, how they ruled them. The key to understanding whitehonic governance is to understand that they were a very typical Inderasian empire in the sense that they allowed, as far as we can tell, religious liberty. All kinds of religions were tolerated by the. The kings themselves sometimes patronized Buddhism, sometimes patronized Hinduism. Wherever they were, they patronized the local practices of the populations that they ruled over. And they also in many cases, integrated the local aristocracy into the governing structure. What they created can best be described as a feudal empire. I really, really hesitate to use the term feudal because it can lead to all kinds of misunderstandings, but for want of a better term, it is feudal in the sense that, yes, there is the Hephthalite emperor who is ruling at the top, and then they would be senior kings and high ranking aristocrats who derive from the White Hunnic conquering elite, the Vars and the Huns. But then at the lower levels, the local rulers, for example, in India, the rajas and the maharajas, they remained local dynasts. And so they would be incorporated into the White Hunnic political structure and their local practices, customs, religions would be respected and would be left to function as they always did. All they had to do, of course, was pay taxes and contribute troops to the imperial army when they were called upon to do so.

D (46:36)

But it's interesting there because we have covered the empire of Attila and his forebears in the past in the west, and you've mentioned in that chat the importance of tribute, the fact that, you know, you had the senior king, but then you also had local rulers and that kind of hierarchy of overlords. So it sounds like there are clear similarities between, let's say, Attila's Hunnic empire and that of the White Huns in Central Asia.

C (47:01)

Yes, the political structure of both empires are remarkably similar and presumably because both entities derive from the old Hunnic empire of Inner Asia. And so the system through which the Vaishungs govern. Their empire is almost identical to that of Attila's Hunnic empire in Europe, although they use different titles. And of course, local practices were also catered for in the Vaishanic administration. So there are officials with different sounding names, but the overarching framework is the same or very similar.

D (47:40)

You mentioned that embracing of local cultures and being in that area of the world. Of course, you've got all those different religions that they're interacting with. Zoroastrianism in Persia, but of course from India you've got Buddhism and Hinduism. So do we know how the Hephalite leaders, the Hephthalites, well, the White Hunnic kingdom, how they tolerated these different religions, how much patronage, how much they sponsored these religions in certain areas of their empire?

C (48:06)

Yeah. So in India, for example, particular Alcon kings would patronize Shivaism, for example, they would build temples. Not just Shivaism, every branch of Hinduism was patronized. They would build temples all over the place. And when in Rome, do as the Romans do. Seems to be the Hani Mosho. So wherever they conquer, they are kings by profession. So once they become kings of a local area, what they would do is basically go native and worship the gods that rule there. And so that is the overarching sort of Punic approach. So in India they tend to be more Hindu, but then in Bactria and Sogdia there is of course patronage of Zoroastrianism as well, but that is more identified with the Persians. And so in Afghanistan and Sogdia, Bactria, that area, the Heptalites patronized Buddhism. And so there were many Buddhist monasteries, of course, which were built during Waitanic rule. And we mentioned this earlier, but some of the largest Buddhist statues ever built in history were built under the patronage of Waitwani kings. The famous Bamiyan Buddha as being one of them. Of course, unfortunately, those Buddhas which were UNESCO heritage relics, they were blown up by the Taliban in Afghanistan. And so they're no longer with us. But yes, they originally were a spectacular sight to behold.

D (49:36)

I wish I could ask you so many questions on this, Hyunjin, but I presume that we've looked at the militaristic side, the patronage of certain religions. I can imagine that it's also quite a wealthy empire as well, with the Buddhist monks also having links to trade and merchants and that all these goods were flowing back and forth from the White Hunnic empire. This isn't like the nomadic people living in yurts idea that sometimes you get of the Xiongnu or the Huns early on, this is a very sophisticated, rich empire in Central Asia, you know, with lots of wealth coming in and presumably wonderful art, too.

C (50:13)

Oh, yes, and we've been very lucky to discover some of the most beautiful mural paintings that were produced by the Hepthalites. Their ornamental art is also stylish in the sort of the urbane sense. And so. Yes, and that is part of the reason why the Chinese would talk about them in these terms, that they were civilized, the most civilized people of the west, according to the Chinese. So from the Chinese perspective, these Hepthalites looked very much like themselves in the way that they sort of went about governing their empire. The ways in which they built urban settlements and practiced culture and practiced Buddhism, et cetera, that all looked very sophisticated and civilized to the Chinese. So the Chinese tell us that both the Hepthalite Huns, who are the white Huns who rule over Central Asia and India, they're civilized. They also think the Yueban hunter, you know, the weak Huns who were left behind in eastern Kazakhstan, were also highly civilized as well. So we tend to think that the Huns were these nomadic peoples who only practiced pastoralism and who did not have any urban centers, who did not have material culture to speak of. But that is a complete misconception. The Huns, when they were still in Central Asia, were a very sophisticated people, both culturally and militarily. And I think the evidence that comes out of Central Asia is proving more by the day that what we are dealing with is a very powerful military state that is expanding its reach, rather than a motley group of savage barbarians roaming aimlessly and then crashing, somehow crashing into the Roman Empire.

D (52:02)

So, Hyunjin, we've done a wonderful chat covering so much of the Hephalite story. I must ask to finish it, what ultimately happens to the White Hunnic Empire?

C (52:12)

Yes, it all happened suddenly. The Rouran Khaganas, which had been in decline, was finally overthrown by the Gokturks, the Turks. So they finally emerge in the annals of history. At this time, Bumin Khagan of the Turks and Ishtemi Yabgu, his brother, they start conquering an enormous empire even larger than the Hunnic empires that preceded it. So in the middle of the 6th century, the Gokturks invade the White Hunnic Empire after they had overthrown the Rouron, or the Avars, and a massive battle takes place in Bukhara, close to Bukhara, in what was then Sogdia, modern day Uzbekistan. That battle lasted eight days. So it was a colossal conflict. And Afghanish or Faganish, the last Hepthalite emperor found himself at the losing end of that encounter, unfortunately. And so his army was destroyed. And the same thing that happened when the Kidarites collapsed happened yet again. So the Heptalites under King Khosrau I, they allied with the Turks and invaded at the most opportune time.

D (53:27)

Oh, you mean not the Hephalite. So Khosrau, that's the Sasanian king. You said Hephalite there, right? Yes. So the Sasanians and the Gokturks ally against the Hephalites.

C (53:35)

Yes, yes sir. Exactly. Exactly. And so? Well, they agree to carve up the Hephthalites empire and the Turks successfully capture Central Asia from the Hephthalites. But the Sasanians were less successful in conquering Afghanistan. So Hepthalite principalities continue to hold on in Afghanistan long after the fall of the main Hepthalite empire. And of course the Hepthalites in India last a lot lot longer than that. The Turks, of course, after they conquer Central Asia again have a change of heart like the Hepthalites did when they overthrew the Kidarites and they start invading the Persians. And the same thing happens all over again.

D (54:17)

What? Persia. But there again first of the Kidarites, then the Hephthalites, and then finally with the Gokturks. I mean, so that's the end of the White Hunnic Empire. Yes, but you mentioned this near the start, that the legacy of the White Huns it endures for centuries after this point, just not as strong as it had been before.

C (54:33)

Yes, so the Heptalites, they hang on in Afghanistan and in Northern India and they after the Persian Empire is conquered by the Arabs and Islamization of the the near east and Central Asia occurs shortly thereafter. What happens is that the White Huns who hang on in Afghanistan and Northern India form a bulwark that prevents the expansion of Islam into the Indian subcontinent for almost four centuries. That is probably one of the reasons why India is still largely Hindu today, because the Vaishns stopped the, the early wave of Islamic conquest from penetrating all the way into Central India. So in that sense they contributed a lot to the preservation of India's native culture and in global history. I think that that was their most important contribution, that they did play their part in the preservation of Indian culture and civilization. And in Afghanistan. What's interesting is that the Hephthalites leisure play a major role in the ethnogenesis of the so called Kalaj people. The Kalaj people later morph into many of the major Pashtun clans or tribes like the Giljai Pashtuns and the Abdali Pashtuns. The Abdalis, their name literally means Hepthalite, so these are Hepthalite Pashtuns. And so the Afghan people are infused with a new warrior traditional that makes them virtually unconquerable. Prior to the Heptarite or White Hari conquest, Afghanistan was not known for its martial peoples. They were being overrun time and again by invaders from the north or the northeast. But after the Hephthalite conquest, the mountains of Afghanistan become the graveyard of empires. So in the 19th century, these Giljag Pashtuns, they of course defeat the British invasion of Afghanistan. In the 20th century they stopped the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and in the 21st century they fought off the Americans. So yes, the White Huns also played a significant role in the ethnogenesis of the Afghan people.

D (56:50)

Well Hyunjin, I think that's a lovely way to end this chat. Last but certainly not least, you have written a book on the whole story of the Huns which includes the tale of the White Huns.

C (56:58)

It is called it is called the Huns Rome and the Birth of Europe that was published in 2013 by Cambridge University Press. There is another book called Just the Huns which also deals with most of the same topics.

D (57:13)

Jin Jin, it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast today.

C (57:17)

It's a pleasure.

D (57:22)

Well, there you go. There was Professor Hyun Jin and Kim returning to the show to give you an overview and introduction to the fascinating story of the White Huns in Central Asia. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Please follow the Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour if you also be kind enough to leave us a rating. Well, we'd really appreciate that. Don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of Historyhits podcasts ad free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe@historyhit.com subscribe.

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